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Jeebus

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Garrison without tokens
« on: April 06, 2022, 11:38:53 am »
+2



You play Garrison, but don't gain any cards. When you come to the part of Clean-up where you are discarding, does it stay in play? Its effect lasts for the rest of the turn, which is not over yet.

The only way to gain a card later in your turn, I think, would be if you had bought Donate. But whether it's possible to gain more cards or not, it's still the case that the when-gain effect is not over yet.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2022, 01:31:49 pm by Jeebus »
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faust

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2022, 11:55:28 am »
0

The only way to gain a card later in your turn, I think, would be if you had bought Donate. But whether it's possible to gain more cards or not, it's still the case that the when-gain effect is not over yet.
Donate happens in between turns, right?
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Jeebus

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2022, 12:39:19 pm »
0

Donate happens in between turns, right?

Not anymore. It happens at the end of your turn now, which is during your turn. But the question should be the same even if Donate didn't even exist.

Jeebus

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2022, 01:32:46 pm »
0



I realized this is related to a similar question about Way of the Seal. If you play a Duration using Way of the Seal, the when-gain ability is not over when we discard cards in Clean up. It lasts for the rest of the turn, just like for Garrison.



This is similar to the Way of the Squirrel issue, but that Way has an "end of turn" effect instead of an ongoing ability for the rest of the turn like Way of the Seal. Donald ruled that the Duration would be discarded in that case, "because absolutely no-one ever ... will think they possibly stay out in that situation."

Possibly the rule about Durations staying out when they have something left to do could be changed so that it's only about future turns "after this turn". (Or maybe Donald has decided to change it already?) Then the card would be discarded in all these situations (Garrison, Seal, Squirrel). But then, with Garrison and with Seal, we would have situations where a Duration is discarded even though it still does something (via Donate), which might not be desirable?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2022, 05:43:34 am by Jeebus »
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Ingix

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2022, 02:21:51 pm »
+1

Yes, I think doing something on later turns should be the key. It's the same problem that Cargo Ship also has.

I guess it makes sense to keep them in play, as when you do actually gain a card at end of turn, the effect is still supposed to happen, and then you would otherwise have no place to put the card for Cargo Ship.
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Donald X.

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2022, 02:26:32 pm »
+1



You play Garrison, but don't gain any cards. When you come to the part of Clean-up where you are discarding, does it stay in play? Its effect lasts for the rest of the turn, which is not over yet.

The only way to gain a card later in your turn, I think, would be if you had bought Donate. But whether it's possible to gain more cards or not, it's still the case that the when-gain effect is not over yet.
What you're saying is reasonable.

It could be that "this turn" didn't apply to clean-up, but some effects are "this turn" and do something specifically in clean-up.
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Jeebus

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2022, 03:56:01 pm »
0

I didn't realize that Cargo Ship has the same issue. So both a Cargo Ship with no cards and a Garrison with no tokens would be discarded in the next player's clean-up, right?

But so Donald, does this mean that Duration + Way of the Seal should also stay in play - until the next player's clean-up?

GendoIkari

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2022, 04:01:05 pm »
+1

But the question should be the same even if Donate didn't even exist.

For sure, I'd hate a ruling that says otherwise, one which would amount to "you keep it if there is any theoretical way to gain a card this turn after cleanup, but you discard it if there is no such theoretical way."
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dz

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2022, 07:34:56 pm »
+1

Possibly the rule about Durations staying out when they have something left to do could be changed so that it's only about future turns. (Or maybe Donald has decided to change it already?) Then the card would be discarded in all these situations (Garrison, Seal, Squirrel). But then, with Garrison and with Seal, we would have situations where a Duration is discarded even though it still does something (via Donate), which might not be desirable?

Changing the rule to "durations only stay out if they know they'll do stuff on future turns" seems reasonable to me, and doesn't sound like a confusing change. And it answers the Squirrel question, hooray.

Edit: Actually, maybe "durations only stay out if they know they'll have stuff to do after this turn ends" is a better wording, to deal with Outpost (Outpost stays in play for the in-between-turns decision of which extra turn to take, but it doesn't actually do anything on that extra turn).

If Garrison isn't in play, you can't put any tokens on it, and it won't draw any cards. So if you discard it from play, then gain a card, there won't be any tracking issues there.

Sure Seal and Cargo Ship will still have memory issues with Donate, but it seems pretty easy to suck-up; it's a pretty rare scenario (it turns out, most of the time you're using Donate to trash starting cards, not Catacombs). And Cargo Ship technically still has some tracking, since the gained card is still set aside for you to remember.

To me the bigger problem are Durations/Thrones getting removed from play before Clean-up (hooray Procession got errata'ed in 2019, even though it'll need more in order for me to unban it). Fortunately a lot of the current ways to remove Durations (such as Counterfeit and Bonfire) will get non-Duration errata sometime soon (mostly because Contract now exists).
« Last Edit: April 06, 2022, 10:22:32 pm by dz »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2022, 12:14:17 am »
0


If Garrison isn't in play, you can't put any tokens on it, and it won't draw any cards. So if you discard it from play, then gain a card, there won't be any tracking issues there.


Hmm, is this confirmed? We know that cards like Haven and Crypt still work normally even if they aren't in play (it doesn't matter if you can't put the cards "under this"). Is Garrison different; do the tokens actually have to be on Garrison? If it said "remove all tokens from Garrison" then it would be clear, but it just says "remove them".

*Edit* Oh just saw that the official FAQ confirms it.
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joefarebrother

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2022, 08:15:32 pm »
+1

I would say it stays out on the basis that it is going to do something next turn, and doesn't yet know that will have no effect
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Jeebus

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2022, 05:56:38 am »
0

I would say it stays out on the basis that it is going to do something next turn, and doesn't yet know that will have no effect

That's a good point, which separates Garrison and Cargo Ship from Way of the Seal. With Garrison/Cargo Ship, since the turn is not over in Clean-up, it's still possible that a card will be gained so that they will do something after this turn (next turn). That is not the case with Way of the Seal; yes it's still possible that a card will be gained but that won't have any effect after this turn.

But if there were a rule that a Duration only stays in play in Clean-up if it has something to do after this turn, I think Garrison/Cargo Ship would still be discarded, since it doesn't have that at that moment in Clean-up. Then, in those theoretical extremely rare cases where you have bought Donate and end up trashing Catacombs or Lich, you will set up an effect after this turn even though the Duration has left play.

Ingix

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2022, 05:59:21 am »
0

I can see that argument (from joefarebrother).

OTOH, it could also be that due to Donate, at end of turn you trash a card, you gain a Gold with Market Square and play Sheepdog using Way of the Mouse, playing a Black Market, playing Scepter and finally replaying the Gear or Secret Cave that you didn't make stay out on the first play.

So after thinking about it some more, the sensible solution to me (right now  ;D) would be to have a Duration card check at Clean-up

1) is there an effect from it after this turn at all,
2) if yes, will any of these effects accomplish anything?

If one of the future effects will accomplish anything (given current data), the Duration card stays out, otherwise not (or better, this particular test if the card stays out says "not because of me").

For Gear. 1) would be true always (unless it was played using a Way or under Enchantress). But if no cards were set aside, check 2 would fail.
The same argument should apply IMO to Garrison and Cargo Ship, if no relevant cards were gained.

And while this does open the possibility that a card is gained later (with it being set aside on "nothing" for Cargo Ship), this is a rare occurance that should not make the general decision more complicated. And it's also something that is already possible using Throne Room - like cards and Way of the Horse/Butterfly.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2022, 09:51:53 am »
0


But if there were a rule that a Duration only stays in play in Clean-up if it has something to do after this turn, I think Garrison/Cargo Ship would still be discarded, since it doesn't have that at that moment in Clean-up. Then, in those theoretical extremely rare cases where you have bought Donate and end up trashing Catacombs or Lich, you will set up an effect after this turn even though the Duration has left play.

I don't get this. When has a duration card ever card if it had what it needed at the moment in Clean-up? What if your deck and discard are empty during cleanup and you played a Wharf that turn? You aren't going to discard the Wharf just because there's no cards to draw at the time. (If we can set aside the weird paradox that would occur in that case, because after discarding Wharf you now have cards to draw). With first edition Outpost, it was made pretty clear that because it doesn't "know" that it won't do anything, it stays in play.
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Jeebus

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2022, 10:35:05 am »
0


But if there were a rule that a Duration only stays in play in Clean-up if it has something to do after this turn, I think Garrison/Cargo Ship would still be discarded, since it doesn't have that at that moment in Clean-up. Then, in those theoretical extremely rare cases where you have bought Donate and end up trashing Catacombs or Lich, you will set up an effect after this turn even though the Duration has left play.

I don't get this. When has a duration card ever card if it had what it needed at the moment in Clean-up? What if your deck and discard are empty during cleanup and you played a Wharf that turn? You aren't going to discard the Wharf just because there's no cards to draw at the time. (If we can set aside the weird paradox that would occur in that case, because after discarding Wharf you now have cards to draw). With first edition Outpost, it was made pretty clear that because it doesn't "know" that it won't do anything, it stays in play.

If in Clean-up it has set something up, it stays; otherwise not. See this thread. Wharf has set up "draw 2 cards". Gear or Cargo Ship with no cards set aside, hasn't set up anything.*

*For Cargo Ship, this assumes that we are using the proposed but unconfirmed rule that Durations need to set something up after this turn. Cargo Ship has actually set up an ability for the rest of this turn that is not resolved in Clean-up.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 10:40:00 am by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2022, 12:35:38 pm »
0


But if there were a rule that a Duration only stays in play in Clean-up if it has something to do after this turn, I think Garrison/Cargo Ship would still be discarded, since it doesn't have that at that moment in Clean-up. Then, in those theoretical extremely rare cases where you have bought Donate and end up trashing Catacombs or Lich, you will set up an effect after this turn even though the Duration has left play.

I don't get this. When has a duration card ever card if it had what it needed at the moment in Clean-up? What if your deck and discard are empty during cleanup and you played a Wharf that turn? You aren't going to discard the Wharf just because there's no cards to draw at the time. (If we can set aside the weird paradox that would occur in that case, because after discarding Wharf you now have cards to draw). With first edition Outpost, it was made pretty clear that because it doesn't "know" that it won't do anything, it stays in play.

If in Clean-up it has set something up, it stays; otherwise not. See this thread. Wharf has set up "draw 2 cards". Gear or Cargo Ship with no cards set aside, hasn't set up anything.*

You're right that Wharf was a bad example for the reasons in the linked thread. But Gear and Cargo Ship are different because Gear knows whether it has set up anything... if there aren't cards under Gear during cleanup, there is no question about whether or not Gear does anything next turn. It won't, not because there aren't cards under Gear right now, but because there also won't be cards under Gear at the start of next turn. Cargo Ship on the other hand may or may not do something next turn. "The card" is undefined at the moment, but the game has no way of knowing that it still will be at the start of next turn. I'm not aware of any previous card or ruling that would say that "will do something next turn" is limited to "if the situation stays the same as it is during cleanup"; is there one? The rules ask "do you have something left to do after this turn?" and Cargo Ship answers "I don't know, maybe?". Gear answers "no". Wharf answers "yes".

Quote
*For Cargo Ship, this assumes that we are using the proposed but unconfirmed rule that Durations need to set something up after this turn. Cargo Ship has actually set up an ability for the rest of this turn that is not resolved in Clean-up.

Yes I'm with you on this; I was never thinking about Cargo Ship as staying in play because it might still do something after cleanup this turn. I was thinking about it staying in play because it might do something next turn.

*Edit* It's funny I just re-read your OP, and see that you were seemingly asking if Cargo Ship would stay in play because it still has something left to do until the end of your turn. Whereas I had originally thought you were asking if it would stay in play due to the fact that if you gained a card after cleanup, Cargo Ship would have something to do at the start of next turn.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 12:37:59 pm by GendoIkari »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2022, 12:42:18 pm »
+1

As a separate reply, I definitely don't like the idea that Durations can stay in play simply because a "this turn" effect exists even if no future turn effect exists. As a thought experiment, imagine that Bridge were given the Duration type. Now it suddenly stays in play during cleanup because it's still doing stuff this turn? Ew. No one would look at Duration Bridge and think that it should stay in play.

And what about Highway? It's effect is "while this is in play"... if that were a Duration... no, probably best to not go there. You just get this stupid paradox of "you don't discard this because it's still doing something, but if you did discard it then it wouldn't be doing anything so it was ok to discard it". Just no.
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Jeebus

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2022, 01:20:29 pm »
0

As a separate reply, I definitely don't like the idea that Durations can stay in play simply because a "this turn" effect exists even if no future turn effect exists. As a thought experiment, imagine that Bridge were given the Duration type. Now it suddenly stays in play during cleanup because it's still doing stuff this turn? Ew. No one would look at Duration Bridge and think that it should stay in play.

And what about Highway? It's effect is "while this is in play"... if that were a Duration... no, probably best to not go there. You just get this stupid paradox of "you don't discard this because it's still doing something, but if you did discard it then it wouldn't be doing anything so it was ok to discard it". Just no.

I'm sorry, but it already is that way. We went through this in another thread. Back with Outpost v.1, it would stay out even when it had nothing to do after this turn; it absolutely couldn't give you an extra turn; the only reason it stayed out was because it would cause you to draw 3 cards later in the Clean-up phase. And Donald confirmed in that recent thread that this is still how he considers the rule. Despite that, he ruled Duration-Squirrel the other way, without giving any technical explanation. Maybe he has considered changing the Duration rule; that is what I have asked in this thread already. But he has so far given no indication that he has.

EDIT: Oh, Highway. Duration Highway would not stay out. Donald has already said that the only thing that keeps Lighthouse in play, is the +$1 next turn. "While this is in play" doesn't cause it to be in play.

I'm not aware of any previous card or ruling that would say that "will do something next turn" is limited to "if the situation stays the same as it is during cleanup"; is there one? The rules ask "do you have something left to do after this turn?" and Cargo Ship answers "I don't know, maybe?". Gear answers "no". Wharf answers "yes".

To the question "do you have something left to do after this turn?" I would expect for Cargo Ship the answer is no. It doesn't HAVE anything left.
Again, this question is only relevant with the proposed but UNCONFIRMED rule that Durations need to set something up after this turn. (You seem to think that this is the actual rule. But the question in this thread from the start was based on the actual known current rule, which is that Durations stay out if, at the moment we would discard them in Clean-up, they have anything left to do at all, not just after this turn.)

Yes, a "Duration Bridge" should stay out.

So, per the current Duration rule, technically speaking:
Garrison and Cargo Ship (with no gained cards) stay out - just because their effect isn't over in Clean-up.
Duration with Way of the Squirrel or Seal stay out - because their effect isn't over in Clean-up.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 01:34:11 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2022, 03:32:04 pm »
0

As a separate reply, I definitely don't like the idea that Durations can stay in play simply because a "this turn" effect exists even if no future turn effect exists. As a thought experiment, imagine that Bridge were given the Duration type. Now it suddenly stays in play during cleanup because it's still doing stuff this turn? Ew. No one would look at Duration Bridge and think that it should stay in play.

And what about Highway? It's effect is "while this is in play"... if that were a Duration... no, probably best to not go there. You just get this stupid paradox of "you don't discard this because it's still doing something, but if you did discard it then it wouldn't be doing anything so it was ok to discard it". Just no.

I'm sorry, but it already is that way. We went through this in another thread. Back with Outpost v.1, it would stay out even when it had nothing to do after this turn; it absolutely couldn't give you an extra turn; the only reason it stayed out was because it would cause you to draw 3 cards later in the Clean-up phase. And Donald confirmed in that recent thread that this is still how he considers the rule. Despite that, he ruled Duration-Squirrel the other way, without giving any technical explanation. Maybe he has considered changing the Duration rule; that is what I have asked in this thread already. But he has so far given no indication that he has.

EDIT: Oh, Highway. Duration Highway would not stay out. Donald has already said that the only thing that keeps Lighthouse in play, is the +$1 next turn. "While this is in play" doesn't cause it to be in play.

I'm not aware of any previous card or ruling that would say that "will do something next turn" is limited to "if the situation stays the same as it is during cleanup"; is there one? The rules ask "do you have something left to do after this turn?" and Cargo Ship answers "I don't know, maybe?". Gear answers "no". Wharf answers "yes".

To the question "do you have something left to do after this turn?" I would expect for Cargo Ship the answer is no. It doesn't HAVE anything left.
Again, this question is only relevant with the proposed but UNCONFIRMED rule that Durations need to set something up after this turn. (You seem to think that this is the actual rule. But the question in this thread from the start was based on the actual known current rule, which is that Durations stay out if, at the moment we would discard them in Clean-up, they have anything left to do at all, not just after this turn.)

Yes, a "Duration Bridge" should stay out.

So, per the current Duration rule, technically speaking:
Garrison and Cargo Ship (with no gained cards) stay out - just because their effect isn't over in Clean-up.
Duration with Way of the Squirrel or Seal stay out - because their effect isn't over in Clean-up.

No I get that that's the current rule. I said in other recent threads that I tink the change to "after this turn" would be a good one. I was just using theoretical Bridge to emphasize a reason why I think this is a good change. I guess the currently rule is more clearly bad for "this turn" effects like Garrison than it is for "at the end of this turn" effects like Squirrel. I guess the difference is that with Squirrel it's easy to see that the card has something left to do; it specifically states that it will do a specific thing at a specific time in the future. Whereas Garrison (like Bridge) simply has set up an ongoing trigger that happens to last until the end of turn... it's not stating that it will do a specific thing at a specific time in the future; it's just changing the way things work for the whole current turn. Both the same for technical rules purposes, but they feel different for English language reading purposes.

I guess I've never read a difference between "do you have anything left to do after this turn" and "will you do something after this turn". With the latter reading, it seems clearer that Cargo Ship / Garrison can't simply answer "no", whereas Gear can.
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Donald X.

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2022, 06:47:01 pm »
+8

The most recent printing of the Duration rules is in Seaside 2E (and man, it's printed, it's on the boat), and the relevant part of that rulebook is:

"Duration cards are orange and have abilities that affect future turns. Players do not discard Duration cards in Clean-up if they have something left to do; they stay in play until the Clean-up of the last turn that they do something. Additionally, if a card such as Throne Room plays a Duration card multiple times, that card also stays in play until the player discards the Duration card."

Yes when you consider edge cases the 2nd sentence is contradictory; a card can have something left to do on that turn in clean-up and so the first part says it won't be discarded and the second part says that it will be (since "the last turn" would include that turn's clean-up).

It seems clearly preferable for e.g. Cargo Ship to be discarded in clean-up if there's no card set-aside, even if we can come up with a way to gain a card after that.

It is also seeming like, before Empires is reprinted next (and I don't know when that is and my most recent files are December 2020), I should look at, can I move Donate to e.g. when you buy it.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 06:48:05 pm by Donald X. »
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Jeebus

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2022, 09:51:41 am »
+1

It seems clearly preferable for e.g. Cargo Ship to be discarded in clean-up if there's no card set-aside, even if we can come up with a way to gain a card after that.

This seems to mean that a Cargo Ship with no cards, an empty Garrison, and a Duration with Way of the Seal all will be discarded in clean-up. (And also a Duration with Way of the Squirrel, as ruled in another thread.)

So this leads me to conclude that Durations will be discarded in clean-up if they have nothing left to do after this turn, even if they do have something left to do this turn.

GendoIkari

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2022, 11:18:04 am »
+1

I still don't like the idea that Cargo Ship and Garrison are being considered automatically the same as Seal/Squirrel. With Seal/Squirrel it is completely clear that they don't do anything next turn, and a rule clarifying that Durations only care about future turns and not "this turn after cleanup" would get rid of any questions or ambiguity there. But Cargo Ship and Garrison might do something next turn. At the very least I think this requires a separate rule or clarification from the proposed rule that durations only stay in play if they will do something after this turn. Something that addresses the fact that we want only the current game state to be considered when deciding what will happen next turn, even knowing that we may end up deciding incorrectly in that case.
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Jeebus

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2022, 05:43:20 am »
0

At the very least I think this requires a separate rule or clarification from the proposed rule that durations only stay in play if they will do something after this turn. Something that addresses the fact that we want only the current game state to be considered when deciding what will happen next turn, even knowing that we may end up deciding incorrectly in that case.

Well, that is exactly what Donald directly addressed above. The Way of the Seal scenario was what I extrapolated from that.

GendoIkari

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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2022, 01:35:21 pm »
0

At the very least I think this requires a separate rule or clarification from the proposed rule that durations only stay in play if they will do something after this turn. Something that addresses the fact that we want only the current game state to be considered when deciding what will happen next turn, even knowing that we may end up deciding incorrectly in that case.

Well, that is exactly what Donald directly addressed above. The Way of the Seal scenario was what I extrapolated from that.

Maybe I misunderstood something, but I only read his post as addressing things that can happen this turn after discarding during cleanup, not addressing things that can happen next turn but you don't know during cleanup if they will happen next turn or not.
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Re: Garrison without tokens
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2022, 03:11:43 pm »
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At the very least I think this requires a separate rule or clarification from the proposed rule that durations only stay in play if they will do something after this turn. Something that addresses the fact that we want only the current game state to be considered when deciding what will happen next turn, even knowing that we may end up deciding incorrectly in that case.

Well, that is exactly what Donald directly addressed above. The Way of the Seal scenario was what I extrapolated from that.

Maybe I misunderstood something, but I only read his post as addressing things that can happen this turn after discarding during cleanup, not addressing things that can happen next turn but you don't know during cleanup if they will happen next turn or not.

Hmm, maybe I'm not understanding? Donald said:
Quote
It seems clearly preferable for e.g. Cargo Ship to be discarded in clean-up if there's no card set-aside, even if we can come up with a way to gain a card after that.

So this means (if we call it a ruling) that Cargo Ship with no set-aside card is discarded in clean-up. Donald says it's discarded even if a card might be gained later in the turn. To me this means that we only consider the current game state at that point (when discarding in clean-up) when evaluating whether the card has something left to do after this turn.
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