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[jotheonah]

Just re-read day 1 and tell me you really believe that fang busses his partner as early and often as he does with scola.

[WestCoastDidds]

Sorry! Dance of done is distracting!

I’m just a VT. Had I been something useful I’d have intimated that when I was gonna get exiled D1.

This is a little interesting. Didds wasn't ever that close to being exiled day 1. Scum tends to think they are closer to being exiled than they really are.

Oh, goodness no. I was totally getting exiled. There was the need to test the mayors, and faust was focused on me. That wasn’t scum paranoia, it was WCD realism.

Faust has yet to articulate any case on me, other than his gut and he’s been hard core tunneled all game. So much so that I feel like anything I go is just pointless. Between the family vacation when we started and being away with friends this week, I’m hurting us by being disengaged, but also faust had been completely steering this game from D1. I’m not sure how he is alive unless he’s scum.

[EFHW]

Just re-read day 1 and tell me you really believe that fang busses his partner as early and often as he does with scola.

I did reread it, and the bussing had no teerh.

[faust]

Or actually, @faust, can you tell us now why you voted for Dylan in #124?

I think I was reading Dylan's post where he voted MiX and thought it kind of scummy because of the need to explain himself. Then, I confused scolapasta and Dylan and thought both Dylan's post and the prior one by scola were from scola, and voted for scola.

Later on, Dylan was not around and scola had done some things (and I had realized my mistake), so I changed to Dylan.

[faust]

Here's what I see:

There is at most scum between scola and fang, probably - but not necessarily - exactly one.

There are 3 scum overall (I don't think with this many claimed PRs anyone assumes we're in a 2-scum setup), and 7 players alive. We know Dylan is town. That means we actually have better odds of hitting scum outside of scola/fang. And that way we leave one useful PR alive that might just be able to confirm themselves.

faust goes out of his way to point out that they could both be scum, because he doesn't want fang being an IC if we go with scola.

This is not what I meant. As should be clear form context, the disclaimer was actually that they could both be town.

I promised to reveal my guess for the scum team. It's *drumroll*

EFHW, Didds, scola.

If you want to see a prefectly convenient fakeclaim, look no further than EFHW's vig claim.

I don't think that from a game-design POV, it makes sense to include a vig here. We start at odd parity, and there is very little chance of ever reaching even parity (only if scola is telling the truth and successfully blocks a nightkill). So arguably it's never good to use the vig. But including a vig that won't get used just doesn't make any sense.

Does scum!faust put both his partners on this list? Maybe.

Indeed this seems to be the crux of your change of mind. fang does a little push on a wagon that was never a threat, and now he can't be scum, but no matter how much I work towards exiling scum, it will never convince you.

[faust]

If that's not the case, I'm really torn between Didds and EFHW. They both seem extremely towny on re-read.

There's a lot to respond but mostly... how on earth does Didds seem towny?!

[faust]

Just re-read day 1 and tell me you really believe that fang busses his partner as early and often as he does with scola.

Just reread Day 3 and tell me that scum!me fights tooth and nail to prevent an exile of town!fang that you/Dylan were basically set on when just letting the exile go through would have won the game for scum!me.

This is the ridiculous bias that you bring into this. You are perfectly happy to exonerate fang on a flimsy basis of some early D1 posts, but there is nothing I could ever do to receive the same treatment. It's infuriating.

[faust]

I mean, it would explain why faust wants us to vote between EFHW and Didds.

I don't want that. This is a fiction. My vote is on fang. But I realize that the decision is harder for you, and I am sufficiently certain of my read on Didds that I would accept that exile over fang's.

[faust]

I’m not sure how he is alive unless he’s scum.

vomiting emoji face

[faust]

joth, you believe that
- scum decided to go into a 1v1 on D3 to win the game
- then the most influential of the scumteam does everything in his power to make that 1v1 swing in the direction which doesn't win the game for scum
- finally, rather than removing the only obstacle in the way of reaping towncred from the above (stupid) move - a Cop result - scum leaves the Cop alive

This just... doesn't make sense. You seem to at the same time suggest that I am both incredibly good and incredibly bad at playing scum. A terrible move being unexpected doesn't make it any less terrible.

[jotheonah]

This is the ridiculous bias that you bring into this. You are perfectly happy to exonerate fang on a flimsy basis of some early D1 posts, but there is nothing I could ever do to receive the same treatment. It's infuriating.

This is AtE, it’s over the top, and it’s not really fair.

Look I was ride or die you until I re-read the whole game and your interactions with out one confirmed scum were scummier than fangs. He’s a claimed cop with a scum result on you. One of you is scum.

If that's not the case, I'm really torn between Didds and EFHW. They both seem extremely towny on re-read.

There's a lot to respond but mostly... how on earth does Didds seem towny?!

Ok, maybe better would be to say, on reread, they both have a lot of towny posts and a handful of scummy ones.

Which by the way proves that this isn’t some crazy bias of mine, and it’s so insulting for you to say it is. This is me re-reading the whole game and coming away with an overall impression that your play is consistent with the scum-faust of my experience.

Why would you defend fang day 3? That’s the crux of your defense. Well, your partner had just decided to 1v1 him. Sure your team could go all in to throw your weight behind him winning the 1v1. And you could lose anyway, especially with a mayor still in the mix adding an extra vote to the equation and playing his cards somewhat close to the vest (by the way I would love for you to support your assertion that Dylan was “basically set on” fang).

So what happens today if your whole team goes in on the wrong side of the 1v1 and still loses? Game over. So you hedge your bets with the full-throated defense of fang hoping to ride the towncred to victory.

It’s actually the smarter play.

[jotheonah]

Just re-read day 1 and tell me you really believe that fang busses his partner as early and often as he does with scola.

I did reread it, and the bussing had no teerh.

Well if you want to convince me, support that assertion.

In my experience, day 1 scum bussing is light. Fang was doing everything he could to make the scola thing happen, including bringing it back to life after it died of its own accord.

Now I haven’t played with fang before so maybe he’s gutsier than I’m giving him credit for. But if that’s the case there should be evidence for it. So show me another game where he’s done a day 1 bus like this.

[infangthief]

Joth, I really don't think Didds can be faust's partner.

There's the bit in day 1 where Dylan says whoever gets to 3 votes next is going to be the test subject, which basically involved Dylan and Joseph voting, then others piling on until an exile happened (with a theoretical reprieve only if they were both drunk).

So then when faust votes for Didds, that's the 3rd vote and effectively certain exile. Except that Joseph hesitated and MiX argued and we got into a bit of an impasse.

[infangthief]

Why would you defend fang day 3? That’s the crux of your defense. Well, your partner had just decided to 1v1 him. Sure your team could go all in to throw your weight behind him winning the 1v1. And you could lose anyway, especially with a mayor still in the mix adding an extra vote to the equation and playing his cards somewhat close to the vest (by the way I would love for you to support your assertion that Dylan was “basically set on” fang).

So what happens today if your whole team goes in on the wrong side of the 1v1 and still loses? Game over. So you hedge your bets with the full-throated defense of fang hoping to ride the towncred to victory.

It’s actually the smarter play.

Ok, yes this is interesting. I think scola's 1v1 must have taken faust by surprise. Just before scola claimed, faust had said he would just vote scola anyway if he didn't claim soon.
So then after scola claimed and set up the 1v1, what choice did faust have? He's promised to reveal his guess of the entire scum team - it would be really weird if he didn't include scola in it after that readiness to vote before he even claimed.
So he's kind of trapped into believing my side of the 1v1, but next best is to suggest we exile outside of the 1v1.

Makes sense I think.

[jotheonah]

Joth, I really don't think Didds can be faust's partner.

There's the bit in day 1 where Dylan says whoever gets to 3 votes next is going to be the test subject, which basically involved Dylan and Joseph voting, then others piling on until an exile happened (with a theoretical reprieve only if they were both drunk).

So then when faust votes for Didds, that's the 3rd vote and effectively certain exile. Except that Joseph hesitated and MiX argued and we got into a bit of an impasse.

Well a faust-EFHW team lines up with their reaction to my reread.

[faust]

(by the way I would love for you to support your assertion that Dylan was “basically set on” fang).

Sure, here goes:

So there's a moment where you have to kind of trust your gut, especially when there's decent reasoning that backs it up, even if it's not ironclad proof. When it's the first person on the claim list vs the last and those two positions did correspond to my reads, I feel like I have to ride or die with it a little bit. Also, if we have a town cop AND a rolecop, we need to have a little conversation with our mod about balancing a game imho. Fang had to just look at the town roles, figure that cop probably wouldn't directly get counterclaimed after gkrieg's flip and just went with it. Remove gkrieg from the game, and I think it would have been a reasonable enough claim given the possibility of insane, but I just don't see town having both of those given the options for scum.

Of course, being the last person on the IC's list could have given scola the courage to counterclaim given scum might only need one more exile to win, and that's honestly about the only thing that's keeping me from just voting right now.

[faust]

So you hedge your bets with the full-throated defense of fang hoping to ride the towncred to victory.

Either I'm hedging my bets or I'm doing something full-throatedly.

[faust]

And you could lose anyway

How would that happen exactly?

[faust]

Now I haven’t played with fang before so maybe he’s gutsier than I’m giving him credit for. But if that’s the case there should be evidence for it. So show me another game where he’s done a day 1 bus like this.

Has fang even been scum before or are you asking for the impossible?

[faust]

Why would you defend fang day 3? That’s the crux of your defense. Well, your partner had just decided to 1v1 him. Sure your team could go all in to throw your weight behind him winning the 1v1. And you could lose anyway, especially with a mayor still in the mix adding an extra vote to the equation and playing his cards somewhat close to the vest (by the way I would love for you to support your assertion that Dylan was “basically set on” fang).

So what happens today if your whole team goes in on the wrong side of the 1v1 and still loses? Game over. So you hedge your bets with the full-throated defense of fang hoping to ride the towncred to victory.

It’s actually the smarter play.

Ok, yes this is interesting. I think scola's 1v1 must have taken faust by surprise. Just before scola claimed, faust had said he would just vote scola anyway if he didn't claim soon.
So then after scola claimed and set up the 1v1, what choice did faust have? He's promised to reveal his guess of the entire scum team - it would be really weird if he didn't include scola in it after that readiness to vote before he even claimed.
So he's kind of trapped into believing my side of the 1v1, but next best is to suggest we exile outside of the 1v1.

Makes sense I think.

Why... would I be taken by surprise? Anyone who's ever been scum with me knows I'm planning out fakeclaims metisculously. I was the one who suggested a massclaim in the first place, surely scum!me would have done that knowing what his teammates planned.

[faust]

Why would you defend fang day 3? That’s the crux of your defense. Well, your partner had just decided to 1v1 him. Sure your team could go all in to throw your weight behind him winning the 1v1. And you could lose anyway, especially with a mayor still in the mix adding an extra vote to the equation and playing his cards somewhat close to the vest (by the way I would love for you to support your assertion that Dylan was “basically set on” fang).

So what happens today if your whole team goes in on the wrong side of the 1v1 and still loses? Game over. So you hedge your bets with the full-throated defense of fang hoping to ride the towncred to victory.

It’s actually the smarter play.

Going back to this... none of your arguments hold any water.

- if scum wins a 1v1 that's a win. It doesn't matter one bit that there's still a Mayor especially since said Mayor can be safely killed.
- I have shown how Dylan was reacting; that was before I ever said anything about the matter.
- it's not game over if scum looks bad in the 1v1. It is however game over if there's a Cop result that annihilates any towncred, so why risk that? Also if you say the reason I went against scola is so that the whole team wasn't on the same side then you'd have to demonstrate that my scumpartner was pushing for fang... but noone else was pushing for fang except you and Dylan.
- there was no need for me to do either/or. I could have just come out undecided, which in all likelihood would have led to fang's death.

[jotheonah]

So you hedge your bets with the full-throated defense of fang hoping to ride the towncred to victory.

Either I'm hedging my bets or I'm doing something full-throatedly.

Your TEAM is hedging their bets with YOUR full-throated defense— this is obviously not a contradiction. All your pithy little rejoinders are so empty! This does not feel like good-faith arguing.

[faust]

If that's not the case, I'm really torn between Didds and EFHW. They both seem extremely towny on re-read.

There's a lot to respond but mostly... how on earth does Didds seem towny?!

Ok, maybe better would be to say, on reread, they both have a lot of towny posts and a handful of scummy ones.

Which are Didds's towny posts?

[faust]

So you hedge your bets with the full-throated defense of fang hoping to ride the towncred to victory.

Either I'm hedging my bets or I'm doing something full-throatedly.

Your TEAM is hedging their bets with YOUR full-throated defense— this is obviously not a contradiction. All your pithy little rejoinders are so empty! This does not feel like good-faith arguing.

Again this would imply that the other teammember was going after fang - who would that be?

[faust]

I will be very annoyed with myself when joth turns out to be fang's partner.