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[mathdude]

Might as well throw my hat in the ring for hosting. There are already at least 4 other games with signups or at least "gauging interest" - M135, an RMM, a BM, and a Legacy series in progress. I'll let most of these go before starting up this game.

This will be a very simple relatively simple game - mostly back to basics. (In the future, I'll host something more complex). Setup, rules, possible roles, etc. will be posted closer to game starting are now posted. It can handle flexible numbers, but I'd like to see a minimum of 10 (though 13-16 would be better).

The Rules:

The Golden Rule:
This is a game. Everyone who signs up to play must be considerate of each other, never get personal, and focus on having fun. Once the game starts, having signed up is a commitment: inactivity is just as inconsiderate as rude comments.

The Standard Rules:
1. No communication between players outside of the game thread at any time. This includes passing references, jokes, or cases in other games or threads, whether in context or not.
2. If the game thread is locked, do not post. If you are unsure if something is locked, ask the mod by PM.
3. Direct or verbatim quoting of mod-provided information (including QT opening and closing times) is strictly forbidden. Paraphrasing is okay.
4. Actions with instructions that do not specify a game state will be resolved in the order they are received.
Night actions will be resolved in the following order: roleblocks, protections, investigations, kills. Actions from the same category happen simultaneously (e.g. RB'ing a RB'er doesn't do anything, if you kill a killer their kill will still go through).
5. Players must post once every 24 hours.
6. Do not edit or delete posts, ever. If you need to clarify or correct something, post again.
7. Invisible text, font size less than 10, and spoiler tags are not allowed.
8. Cryptography is not allowed.
9. The time between an exile being reached and a flip being provided is called twilight. All players may continue posting during this time, including the exiled player.
10. Dead players may not post in thread or QT, except their Role QT. An exiled player is not "dead" until a flip has been provided.
11. Personal multimedia, such as video or audio recordings, are not allowed in the game thread.

The Voting Rules:
1. Votes should be in bold, in this format: Vote: Playername. Unambigiuous nicknames are acceptable, or any string that uniquely identifies a user. Note that the point of voting is, in fact, unambiguity, and attempting to make it unclear to other players (or, of course, mods) which user you are voting for is very ill-advised.
2. Unvotes should be in this format: unvote or Unvote: Playername.
3. Unvotes are not required if changing your vote from one player to another.
4. You MAY vote: no exile.
5. Exiles occur when a simple majority (rounded up) of living players is reached. Once reached, an exile cannot be undone.
6. If a majority exile is not reached by the Day's deadline, a plurality exile will NOT takes place. There will be no exile that day.

The Rest:
1. Bold, blue text is reserved for the mod. Players may not use it.
2. If you have an issue or problem with the game, please PM the Mod. Do not post complaints in the game thread.
3. Mods make mistakes - please point them out gently. If they can be corrected, they will. If irreversible, they will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. If a mod error disadvantages one faction greatly, the game may be called off.
5. Ask all questions and make all requests directly to the Mod via PM. Questions deemed as "universal" (defined as questions for which the answers should be available to all players) will be requested to be re-posted in the Game Thread and answered there.
6. Players may request prods on other players if they have not posted in 24 hours. Players are subject to replacement or modkill after one prod.
7. All rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, as determined by the mod.
8. Each player will receive their own QT*, regardless of role. Don't quote from it.
*with QT being shut down, it will still be determined how to facilitate communication in this game.

Deadlines:
1. Days will last seven IRL days.
2. Nights will last two IRL days. Night actions may be submitted right up until thread is locked (at or shortly after the 48-hour mark).

Players:
infangthief - Reepicheep, a Goon rat dressed in mouse clothing - survived to the end
Swowl - Speedy Gonzales, a Modified Bodyguard - died using his role N1 protecting Dylan32
WestCoastDidds - Fievel Mousekewitz, a RoleCop rat dressed in mouse clothing - survived to the end
MiX - Mighty Mouse, a Vanilla Townie - exiled D1
scolapasta - Pinky, a Roleblocker rat in mouse clothing - exiled D3
Dylan32 - Jerry, a town-aligned Mayor - killed N3
EFHW - Nynaeve, a town-aligned Even-Night Vigilante - endgamed
jotheonah - Mrs. Brisby, a Vanilla Townie - endgamed
faust - Minnie Mouse, a Vanilla Townie - exiled D4
Joseph2302 - Mickey Mouse, a Vanilla Townie - exiled D2
gkrieg13 - Stewart Little, a town-aligned RoleCop - killed N2

Game Tracker:
Day 1 Start
Day 2 Start
Day 3 Start
Day 4 Start
Endgame

[mathdude]

Potential Roles:
The actual set-up will remain hidden.  Non-vanilla roles that are used will come from the following list, but not all of them will be used!  Vanilla Townies (VTs) and Vanilla Mafia (Goons) will make up the remainder of the roles.  Role type (see Standard Rules #4) will be shown in brackets in the list.

Possible Town Roles:

Roleblocker (roleblock) - may target someone each night and prevents that person from using their role that night (or the following day*)

Doctor (protection) - may target someone each night and if they are targeted to be killed, the kill will not happen

Modified Bodyguard (protection) - may target someone each night and if they are targeted to be killed, the bodyguard is killed instead and the original target is revealed to have been targeted.

Cop (investigation) - may target someone each night and is told whether they are guilty (scum) or innocent (town)

Insane cop (investigation) - may target someone each night and is told whether they are guilty or innocent, but receives the opposite result as what it should be; is told they are a normal "Cop" and just flips Cop upon death.

Role Cop (investigation) - may target someone each night and is told which type of role that person possesses (roleblock, protection, investigation, killing, vanilla, or day)

Even-Night Vigilante (killing) - may target someone each even night to kill (i.e. Nights 2, 4, 6, etc.)

Mayor (day*) - their public vote (during the day) counts as 2 votes

Drunk (day*) - their public vote (during the day) does not count; is told they are "Mayor" and flips Mayor upon death.

Because Mayor and Drunk (if used) are not public information, official vote counts (during the day and final at ends of days) will only state who voted for whom, not the current actual vote counts.

If a Mayor vote has occurred and a simple majority is reached that is not known publicly, the "hammer" vote will be quoted when the thread is locked at end of day.  A Drunk vote may be cast that may mean an apparent simple majority is not actually such, so continue posting and voting until the thread is locked, not knowing whether you are in twilight or still in the day.

Possible Mafia Roles:

Roleblocker (roleblock) - may target someone each night and prevents that person from using their role that night (or the following day*)

Role Cop (investigation) - may target someone each night and is told which type of role that person possesses (roleblock, protection, investigation, killing, vanilla, or day)

Kingpin (killing) - if this role is in play, this is the only mafia who may go for the kill, but after their death other mafia members must choose one of them to give up their own role and take on this role

*Note: Day-type roles that are role-blocked at night become a VT the following day (both Mayor and Drunk revert to VT for the day). 

[infangthief]

/in

[Swowl]

Yeah, I guess I am also just gonna jump /in
Let's get one of deese moving

[mathdude]

With Dylan's Among Us Mafia just ended, I am ready to go as soon as we get enough signed up.

(But since that was a basic mafia game and so is this... if any open-for-sign-ups RMM or BM games, or the Legacy BSG want to run next, just let me know and I'll wait).

[WestCoastDidds]

/in but I better not be the drink because I have no idea what that means

[MiX]

Parity cop! Almost bastard voting! Closed setup! Everything can go wrong!

/in

Also, put the rules in your first post, the second post should be reserved for the setup.

...Oh, and modified Godfather should have another name entirely if it doesn't protect against cops. I think you wanted it to be flavorful, but just pick some other name.

[MiX]

Ah, and something I forgot to write: you should still post vote counts, just without any numbers. Not doing it will just make players have to maintain vote state on their own, which is unnecessary busywork.

And...Vigilante should be called Even-night Vigilante. You can call Bodyguard "Modified Bodyguard" if you want, because it's different enough.

Okay that should be everything.

[scolapasta]

I hope I get to be either P/inky or the Brain

[Dylan32]

/in

[mathdude]

/in but I better not be the drink because I have no idea what that means

I assume you mean the Drunk. If used, they will be told they are the Mayor and that their vote counts as 2, but in reality their vote will count for nothing at all. It's possible this could affect endgame in a close game. I'm aware of and okay with that.

Parity cop! Almost bastard voting! Closed setup! Everything can go wrong!

/in

Also, put the rules in your first post, the second post should be reserved for the setup.

...Oh, and modified Godfather should have another name entirely if it doesn't protect against cops. I think you wanted it to be flavorful, but just pick some other name.

Not Parity Cop in my understanding of the role with that name.

I'll update setup/rules posts later this evening.

Godfather... would Hitman be a better role title?

Ah, and something I forgot to write: you should still post vote counts, just without any numbers. Not doing it will just make players have to maintain vote state on their own, which is unnecessary busywork.

And...Vigilante should be called Even-night Vigilante. You can call Bodyguard "Modified Bodyguard" if you want, because it's different enough.

Okay that should be everything.

Noted about vote counts. Will do. Same with role title modifications... I'll update soon.

[Jimmmmm]

Godfather... would Hitman be a better role title?

Kingpin?

[mathdude]

I hope I get to be either P/inky or the Brain

Might as well. I was going to just make a random list and assign them. But might as well let you guys choose if you want.

Anyone already in, edit your post (I know, break a rule!) or post again, or even PM me if you want a specific mouse. New signups, same story. If you don't care, I'll pick one for you.

[scolapasta]

I hope I get to be either P/inky or the Brain

Might as well. I was going to just make a random list and assign them. But might as well let you guys choose if you want.

Anyone already in, edit your post (I know, break a rule!) or post again, or even PM me if you want a specific mouse. New signups, same story. If you don't care, I'll pick one for you.

Ha! I don't actually care; I just like to /in within the context of the game, so had to find a mouse name with those letters (my other option was minnie )

[WestCoastDidds]

I’m totally fievel mousekewitz. Mostly because I don’t know the name of the Ratatouille mouse.

[Swowl]

I shall be Speedy Gonzalez please and thank you

[Dylan32]

Dibs on Jerry (of "Tom and ..." fame)

[infangthief]

If a majority is reached but not known publicly (via Mayor), when does the day end?

Reepicheep please.

[Jimmmmm]

If you Roleblock (or more thematically Jailkeep) a Drunk, you're forcing them to sober up for the next Day.

[mathdude]

If a majority is reached but not known publicly (via Mayor), when does the day end?

Reepicheep please.

When I lock the thread and post the final vote "count".

[mathdude]

If you Roleblock (or more thematically Jailkeep) a Drunk, you're forcing them to sober up for the next Day.

You've posted twice here... are you in?

[Jimmmmm]

Not at the moment sorry, I have other things I need to focus on.

[jotheonah]

Wouldn't anyone with a Mayor PM just claim? And end up generating way too many ICs?

[MiX]

Wouldn't anyone with a Mayor PM just claim? And end up generating way too many ICs?

Only works if they're not roleblocked and everyone claims it.

Mayor's already potentially a triggered IC. Probably doesn't need a breaking strategy.

Oh! Do cops and mayors flip their sanity/drunkness when they die?

[EFHW]

/in. I'll be Nynaeve (the name of one of my gerbils).

[WestCoastDidds]

/in. I'll be Nynaeve (the name of one of my gerbils).

I’m reading the Wheel of Time series right now! Aes Sedai FTW!

[mathdude]

Wouldn't anyone with a Mayor PM just claim? And end up generating way too many ICs?

That's for people to decide in game... but how many ICs do you plan on generating?
Anyway, probably better to save strategy discussion for after the game starts (I might be evil and adjust setup to wreck a discussed strategy... not BM-style, but still within stated setup).

[mathdude]

Wouldn't anyone with a Mayor PM just claim? And end up generating way too many ICs?

Only works if they're not roleblocked and everyone claims it.

Mayor's already potentially a triggered IC. Probably doesn't need a breaking strategy.

Oh! Do cops and mayors flip their sanity/drunkness when they die?

Thanks for the reminder! No, flips reveal only what they were told in their PM! Real roles will be revealed when the game is over.

[EFHW]

/in. I'll be Nynaeve (the name of one of my gerbils).

I’m reading the Wheel of Time series right now! Aes Sedai FTW!

Great! I've lost track of how many times I have read the whole thing. My other gerbil is named Egwene.

[infangthief]

If a majority is reached but not known publicly (via Mayor), when does the day end?

Reepicheep please.

When I lock the thread and post the final vote "count".

Ok... but I meant when would that be? Like, should we expect a short twilight in that situation, similar to when a normal majority is reached? Or could twilight continue for several IRL days?

[mathdude]

If a majority is reached but not known publicly (via Mayor), when does the day end?

Reepicheep please.

When I lock the thread and post the final vote "count".

Ok... but I meant when would that be? Like, should we expect a short twilight in that situation, similar to when a normal majority is reached? Or could twilight continue for several IRL days?

As soon as I get online. It will not last days. A few hours maybe.

[jotheonah]

/in

[Swowl]

the bit about Roleblocking a Day Action User -

This is actually just Mayor and Drunk right? Are they VT for *just* the next day? Or VT from there on out? Will they be informed they are VT?

[mathdude]

the bit about Roleblocking a Day Action User -

This is actually just Mayor and Drunk right? Are they VT for *just* the next day? Or VT from there on out? Will they be informed they are VT?

Just Mayor (and Drunk, who thinks they are Mayor). And yes, just the next day.  They will not be informed.

[mathdude]

Sign-ups seem to have stalled. Go get your friends. Go get your brothers. Go get your friends' brothers and your brothers' friends.

Let's try to get this game started within the next week, since we'd like to finish before we get too close to Christmas.

Ideally, I'd like about 13 people. But we will play with 10 if that's all we can get.

[infangthief]

since we'd like to finish before we get too close to Christmas.

After all, a mouse mustn't stir on the Night Before Christmas.

[faust]

/in

I have an upcoming VLA from Nov 21-28, so I would prefer if this starts after that. But I will try to work around that so this can finish before Christmas.

[mathdude]

/in

I have an upcoming VLA from Nov 21-28, so I would prefer if this starts after that. But I will try to work around that so this can finish before Christmas.

I'm sure we can work something out.

Also, it looks like this will be on the small end of a mafia game. Still need at least 1 more, but a few last-minute additions will be welcome still. Hoping to send out roles this weekend, as long as someone else signs up... and D1 to start early next week.

[mathdude]

At this point, unless one faction plays a perfect game, we likely will not finish before Christmas, but we're could still try. Also, it's been so long since some have signed up that we will likely need to confirm participation again once roles get sent out (which I still can't do unless at least 1 more person signs up).

[WestCoastDidds]

Math, what are you gonna do about the qt thing?

[EFHW]

I'm fine with it going over Christmas.

[mathdude]

Math, what are you gonna do about the qt thing?

If people are okay with it, I'll likely send personal roles just in forum PM. But scum and speccy, we can try chatzy or whatever other consensus is reached in the "RIP QT" thread.

[Joseph2302]

/in

The SK returns

[gkrieg13]

Finished a deadline early so /in.

[Swowl]

yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

[mathdude]

Ok, we have enough. I'll plan to send role PMs out tomorrow afternoon, hopefully. Then if everyone confirms, we can probably start the game Sunday or Monday.

[mathdude]

Ok, I got distracted yesterday.  I've rolled for roles.  Now I just need to go try out Chatzy (since that seems to be the one that was briefly tested, as per RIP QT thread), and figure out what's needed.  Depending on how that goes, I may send all roles through Chatzy, or I may send individual PMs directly through the forum here and only use Chatzy for Scum and Speccy.

Expect to see PMs here within a few hours.

[Swowl]

hey - how will these be sent if not through pm ?
Just so I can look for it

[mathdude]

Friday afternoon... Sunday afternoon... same difference, right?

All role PMs have been sent.  For now (until/unless we get familiar with Chatzy or something else), I'm not giving a separate chat for each role - individual conversations between me and each of you will be just through forum PMs.

Scum does have room setup at Chatzy.

Speccy will also by done through Chatzy.

Anyone who wants to be available as a Sub, please PM me.  Also, anyone who wants to join Speccy, same thing.

Please confirm you've received your role by replying to PM.

We will plan to start in about 48 hours (around 3pm EST on Tuesday), even if not everyone confirms by that point (at which point, I will try to find a sub for them, but no guarantees).  If everyone confirms their roles earlier, we can start earlier.

PM me with any questions.

THREAD LOCKED

[mathdude]

'Twas the Month before Christmas (just barely) and all through the house, not a creature was stirring - not even a mouse.  The stockings were hung by the chimney with care, but they were all worried rats might see them there.

Welcome to the Mouse House - a place that used to be a peaceful meeting place for mice.  Unfortunately, there have been rumours of rats that have infiltrated the ranks, posing as mice at the weekly gatherings.  It is your job to set the traps and sort out the cheese.  Good luck!

Day 1 begins now and ends at 3:00pm EST on Tuesday, December 7th

Vote count 1.0:
not voting:
infangthief, Swowl, WestCoastDidds, MiX, scolapasta, Dylan32, EFHW, jotheonah, faust, Joseph2302, gkrieg13
(with 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to exile)

THREAD UNLOCKED

[MiX]

Hello everyone!

Friendly reminder that L-1 is hammer in this setup.

Vote: scola

[WestCoastDidds]

Hi hi hi hi hi!

I’ve missed you all so much!!

[gkrieg13]

Hi hi hi hi hi!

I’ve missed you all so much!!

Buddying already? Vote: WCD

[WestCoastDidds]

All the buddying, all the time!  That’s how I roll!!

[Joseph2302]

Vote: gkrieg
Because real life mafia 1

[Joseph2302]

Also, I'm the SK

[Swowl]

Yoyoyo
Finally a game.

[scolapasta]

Howdy all.

Surely, MiX votes for me because Messi won the Ballon d'or. :p

[Dylan32]

Vote: MiX for reading the setup ^{but not really it's just because I'm happy to be in a game and able to vote for mix again}

[jotheonah]

The title still says “Night Zero”

Which might lead some to believe the game has not yet started.

[Dylan32]

The title still says “Night Zero”

Which might lead some to believe the game has not yet started.

Vote: Joth for reading

[Dylan32]

Man, has it really been so long that I don't understand how to bold correctly anymore?

[faust]

Friendly reminder that L-1 is hammer in this setup.

Technically, it is possible that L-(L/2) is hammer.

[faust]

Friendly reminder that L-1 is hammer in this setup.

Technically, it is possible that L-(L/2) is hammer.

also these should be Xs

[faust]

Vote: scolapasta

[faust]

Some speculation on scum composition... surely there would have to be at least 3? 2 in 11 might be roughly balanced in an all-vanilla game, but I doubt that mathdude is messing with us in that way.

That means that probably they have a Kingpin as a nerf.

[infangthief]

Hello, what's all this then?

Some people who've been in every game I've played: Didds, Swowl
Some people who've been in 1 or 2 games I've played: faust, EFHW, Joseph, Dylan, Scola
Some people I've never played with: MiX, gkrieg, joth

Think that's everyone.

[infangthief]

Hi hi hi hi hi!

I’ve missed you all so much!!

I thought it was normally 4 hi's?
vote: Didds

[infangthief]

Some speculation on scum composition... surely there would have to be at least 3? 2 in 11 might be roughly balanced in an all-vanilla game, but I doubt that mathdude is messing with us in that way.

That means that probably they have a Kingpin as a nerf.

Why does faust always say what I'm thinking (but clearer than I would have said it)?

Strongest 2-person scum team would be rolecop + roleblocker. If they had that could they do night kill as well as both cop and block?

[MiX]

Some speculation on scum composition... surely there would have to be at least 3? 2 in 11 might be roughly balanced in an all-vanilla game, but I doubt that mathdude is messing with us in that way.

That means that probably they have a Kingpin as a nerf.

Why does faust always say what I'm thinking (but clearer than I would have said it)?

Strongest 2-person scum team would be rolecop + roleblocker. If they had that could they do night kill as well as both cop and block?

Surely roleblocker + roleblocker is better?

8 town vs 3 scum is balanced, it's 3 exiles for either team. I don't think scum needs to have kingpin. But it's a pretty creative role, I would be surprised if math wasn't tempted to put it in

Hi hi hi hi hi!

I’ve missed you all so much!!

I thought it was normally 4 hi's?
vote: Didds

Is that true? How do you even know this?

Hello, what's all this then?

Some people who've been in every game I've played: Didds, Swowl
Some people who've been in 1 or 2 games I've played: faust, EFHW, Joseph, Dylan, Scola
Some people I've never played with: MiX, gkrieg, joth

Think that's everyone.

Did you manage to play only in the game where I didn't play?

[Joseph2302]

Hello everyone!

Friendly reminder that L-1 is hammer in this setup.

Vote: scola

Only if there's a mayor in this game. It's on the Possible Roles list

[Joseph2302]

Vote: MiX

[infangthief]

vote: Joseph

[infangthief]

8 town vs 3 scum is balanced, it's 3 exiles for either team. I don't think scum needs to have kingpin. But it's a pretty creative role, I would be surprised if math wasn't tempted to put it in

There's also town nerfs (drunk) that might balance things if there's only 2 scum.

Hi hi hi hi hi!

I’ve missed you all so much!!

I thought it was normally 4 hi's?
vote: Didds

Is that true? How do you even know this?

I remember someone saying they liked Didds' "hi hi hi hi" openings. So it kind of stuck with me that there were 4 of them.

Did you manage to play only in the game where I didn't play?

I have played 3 games. One of them must have been the game where you didn't play. The other two also must have been games where you didn't play. Unless you changed your name? Are you in fact Hydrad?

[Joseph2302]

vote: Joseph

Vote: infrangthief
Let's get a wagon started!

[WestCoastDidds]

I think some of fangs early games were before MiX joined us. But anyway, fang meet miX! He’s also in Europe so you’ll have someone to talk to early in the morning. And Joth! You haven’t met Joth! Joth is awesome. He’s a word guy. And gkrieg! Gkrieg is awesome, too! He’s an OG, and knows the ancient fds lore along with faust.

Hi hi hi hi hi hi hi hi hi hi hi!!!

I don’t count them, I just get all excited that we’re playing. I’m literally the person that starts waving as soon as they can see you!!

[MiX]

Oooh, literally.

So, does anyone else think scola's reaction to my vote is more scum indicative than not?

[faust]

Joth is awesome. He’s a word guy. And gkrieg! Gkrieg is awesome, too! He’s an OG, and knows the ancient fds lore along with faust.

joth is really more of an OG than either gkrieg or me.

[faust]

Oooh, literally.

So, does anyone else think scola's reaction to my vote is more scum indicative than not?

I mean, I voted for the guy, what else do you need to know?

[faust]

8 town vs 3 scum is balanced, it's 3 exiles for either team. I don't think scum needs to have kingpin. But it's a pretty creative role, I would be surprised if math wasn't tempted to put it in

There's also town nerfs (drunk) that might balance things if there's only 2 scum.

Hm maybe, but I don't think you'd want to put more than one drunk in a setup. That could leave town unable to secure an exile as early as D3.

And a single drunk isn't really much of a nerf.

[faust]

Some speculation on scum composition... surely there would have to be at least 3? 2 in 11 might be roughly balanced in an all-vanilla game, but I doubt that mathdude is messing with us in that way.

That means that probably they have a Kingpin as a nerf.

Why does faust always say what I'm thinking (but clearer than I would have said it)?

Strongest 2-person scum team would be rolecop + roleblocker. If they had that could they do night kill as well as both cop and block?

It's worth noting that both those PRs are only as good as the town PRs they target. A setup where scum has Rolecops/Roleblockers can never be better for scum than a full vanilla game.

[MiX]

Some speculation on scum composition... surely there would have to be at least 3? 2 in 11 might be roughly balanced in an all-vanilla game, but I doubt that mathdude is messing with us in that way.

That means that probably they have a Kingpin as a nerf.

Why does faust always say what I'm thinking (but clearer than I would have said it)?

Strongest 2-person scum team would be rolecop + roleblocker. If they had that could they do night kill as well as both cop and block?

It's worth noting that both those PRs are only as good as the town PRs they target. A setup where scum has Rolecops/Roleblockers can never be better for scum than a full vanilla game.

No, being sure certain players are vanilla/didn't do anything last night is valuable on its own.

Oooh, literally.

So, does anyone else think scola's reaction to my vote is more scum indicative than not?

I mean, I voted for the guy, what else do you need to know?

I wanna know about other people, of course.

[WestCoastDidds]

Joth is awesome. He’s a word guy. And gkrieg! Gkrieg is awesome, too! He’s an OG, and knows the ancient fds lore along with faust.

joth is really more of an OG than either gkrieg or me.

Oh! I didn't know.  When I started playing Joth was not playing... I must have entered the scene during his break!

[EFHW]

We're back!

[scolapasta]

Man, I seem to have riled up the Euros with my Messi love - didn't think Germany had anyone in the running (not that Ronaldo was either). Now if anyone from Poland was playing I might understand...

Anyway, on to the actual game.

I think I've played with everyone here at least once. Not that that will help me much with my reads, based on past experience.

[jotheonah]

Hello, what's all this then?

Some people who've been in every game I've played: Didds, Swowl
Some people who've been in 1 or 2 games I've played: faust, EFHW, Joseph, Dylan, Scola
Some people I've never played with: MiX, gkrieg, joth

Think that's everyone.

we've never played together? that seems wrong to me
Also, MiX is in like every game ever so I'm skeptical of that too

[jotheonah]

Joth is awesome. He’s a word guy. And gkrieg! Gkrieg is awesome, too! He’s an OG, and knows the ancient fds lore along with faust.

joth is really more of an OG than either gkrieg or me.

I've been on this forum for an actual decade.

[jotheonah]

Hello everyone!

Friendly reminder that L-1 is hammer in this setup.

Vote: scola

y

Is this scummy because reading the setup or towny because he didn't need to mention this?  Probably neither. Or both.

[faust]

Right, so.

It's probably good to make an IC, right?

So we need a Mayor/Drunk to claim please.

[faust]

Actually all of them need to claim, otherwise this won't work.

[MiX]

Man, I seem to have riled up the Euros with my Messi love - didn't think Germany had anyone in the running (not that Ronaldo was either). Now if anyone from Poland was playing I might understand...

Anyway, on to the actual game.

I think I've played with everyone here at least once. Not that that will help me much with my reads, based on past experience.

In what game did you have bad reads, despite knowing most of the players?

[EFHW]

Joth is awesome. He’s a word guy. And gkrieg! Gkrieg is awesome, too! He’s an OG, and knows the ancient fds lore along with faust.

joth is really more of an OG than either gkrieg or me.

I've been on this forum for an actual decade.

same

[jotheonah]

Right, so.

It's probably good to make an IC, right?

So we need a Mayor/Drunk to claim please.

You may want to lay out the whole plan before encouraging any claims.

We can run someone up to X-2 with no drunk/mayor votes and then have the claimed drunk/mayor(s) vote one at a time. If they're drunks, that doesn't actually prove their claim. If they're a real mayor it does, but then the day ends and scum can NK them. Maybe we can protect them, maybe not.

Or we can run someone up to X-1, then have the drunks/mayors vote one at a time. That will prove a drunk if there's another vote count and the day doesn't end. But a mayor voting in that scenario will end the day but won't have their claim confirmed, so they won't really be an IC.

I suppose we could wait to decide between plan 1 and plan 2 until after people claim. That will make it a little harder for a lying scum to game the system.

Anyway, the plan still requires us to select an exile target for the day.

[EFHW]

The possible existence of an insane cop is a pretty big nerf for town.

[Joseph2302]

Joth is awesome. He’s a word guy. And gkrieg! Gkrieg is awesome, too! He’s an OG, and knows the ancient fds lore along with faust.

joth is really more of an OG than either gkrieg or me.

I've been on this forum for an actual decade.

same

I have also just reached 10 year on here (although does it count, when I didn't post here for over a year?)

[Joseph2302]

Right, so.

It's probably good to make an IC, right?

So we need a Mayor/Drunk to claim please.

You may want to lay out the whole plan before encouraging any claims.

We can run someone up to X-2 with no drunk/mayor votes and then have the claimed drunk/mayor(s) vote one at a time. If they're drunks, that doesn't actually prove their claim. If they're a real mayor it does, but then the day ends and scum can NK them. Maybe we can protect them, maybe not.

Or we can run someone up to X-1, then have the drunks/mayors vote one at a time. That will prove a drunk if there's another vote count and the day doesn't end. But a mayor voting in that scenario will end the day but won't have their claim confirmed, so they won't really be an IC.

I suppose we could wait to decide between plan 1 and plan 2 until after people claim. That will make it a little harder for a lying scum to game the system.

Anyway, the plan still requires us to select an exile target for the day.

The problem is that the drunk doesn't know they're drunk, so all we'd know from that is that they aren't a mayor (but not if they're drunk or lying)

[jotheonah]

Right, so.

It's probably good to make an IC, right?

So we need a Mayor/Drunk to claim please.

You may want to lay out the whole plan before encouraging any claims.

We can run someone up to X-2 with no drunk/mayor votes and then have the claimed drunk/mayor(s) vote one at a time. If they're drunks, that doesn't actually prove their claim. If they're a real mayor it does, but then the day ends and scum can NK them. Maybe we can protect them, maybe not.

Or we can run someone up to X-1, then have the drunks/mayors vote one at a time. That will prove a drunk if there's another vote count and the day doesn't end. But a mayor voting in that scenario will end the day but won't have their claim confirmed, so they won't really be an IC.

I suppose we could wait to decide between plan 1 and plan 2 until after people claim. That will make it a little harder for a lying scum to game the system.

Anyway, the plan still requires us to select an exile target for the day.

The problem is that the drunk doesn't know they're drunk, so all we'd know from that is that they aren't a mayor (but not if they're drunk or lying)

Right. To put it another way. We can ask for all Mayors to claim.

Anyone who claims can be
- Mayor
- Drunk
- Lying scum

We have two ways to test people (that I can think of). One of them (getting someone to X2 then having claimants vote) will tell us if someone is a true mayor or not, but not whether they're a drunk or a liar. And we can use it any number of times until we get a positive result.

The other (getting someone to X1 and then having claimants vote) will tell us if someone is a drunk, but not whether they're a mayor or a liar. And we can use it until we get a negative result.

Neither method seems optimal, and neither gets us out of scumhunting for today. Method one can never get us an IC we  can use today. Method two can potentially get us an IC we can use today, IF we have a drunk and IF we test multiple claimants (assuming we have them) in the correct order.

[jotheonah]

Finally, this plan will work more reliably today than it ever will again, because of the possibility of roleblockers.

[MiX]

I want to see the day where we can come up with a good D1 exile to do these experiments on.

FYI, I'm against plans like these. I think mayor's already basically a trigger IC that can be roleblocked. Which is still a trigger IC.

[scolapasta]

Man, I seem to have riled up the Euros with my Messi love - didn't think Germany had anyone in the running (not that Ronaldo was either). Now if anyone from Poland was playing I might understand...

Anyway, on to the actual game.

I think I've played with everyone here at least once. Not that that will help me much with my reads, based on past experience.

In what game did you have bad reads, despite knowing most of the players?

It's not so much about bad reads (though I have had them), just more so that I don't think I'm good at generating "good" reads.

[scolapasta]

I want to see the day where we can come up with a good D1 exile to do these experiments on.

FYI, I'm against plans like these. I think mayor's already basically a trigger IC that can be roleblocked. Which is still a trigger IC.

What's a trigger IC?

[jotheonah]

I want to see the day where we can come up with a good D1 exile to do these experiments on.

FYI, I'm against plans like these. I think mayor's already basically a trigger IC that can be roleblocked. Which is still a trigger IC.

I actually kind of like the idea of doing one of these plans. The upside is an IC and the downside seems slight-to-nonexistent.

And its something to talk about while we wait for you to scumslip.

[MiX]

I want to see the day where we can come up with a good D1 exile to do these experiments on.

FYI, I'm against plans like these. I think mayor's already basically a trigger IC that can be roleblocked. Which is still a trigger IC.

I actually kind of like the idea of doing one of these plans. The upside is an IC and the downside seems slight-to-nonexistent.

And its something to talk about while we wait for you to scumslip.

The downside is needing to get a test subject. Given we can only put someone to 4 votes, I think it's hard to say that we have a majority for sure at that time.

Also, you don't need to rush me! I'll scumslip on my own time.

[scolapasta]

I'm not convinced it make sense for the Mayor / Drunks to reveal themselves (at least on D1). I mean selfishly, sure, as it helps me try to solve the game. But my guess is we are better off not revealing these PRs to scum so early.

[faust]

I'm not convinced it make sense for the Mayor / Drunks to reveal themselves (at least on D1). I mean selfishly, sure, as it helps me try to solve the game. But my guess is we are better off not revealing these PRs to scum so early.

Did you also want to make an argument?

[faust]

I would also like to point out that figuring out someone is a Drunk is probably not something we want to happen at XyLo.

[faust]

You may want to lay out the whole plan before encouraging any claims.

But why would I do that?

[jotheonah]

You may want to lay out the whole plan before encouraging any claims.

But why would I do that?

Because you need to convince people the plan is worthwhile and it's hard to do that if no one knows what it is?
Because we have no reason to believe you are advocating a claim for townie reasons?

[scolapasta]

I'm not convinced it make sense for the Mayor / Drunks to reveal themselves (at least on D1). I mean selfishly, sure, as it helps me try to solve the game. But my guess is we are better off not revealing these PRs to scum so early.

Did you also want to make an argument?

I thought I did with "we are better off not revealing these PRs to scum so early."

But more specifically - if scum learns the identify of one (or more) PRs, they can selectively choose their targets more effectively:
• Maybe I'm just sensitive to it since EFHW was effectively a Mayor in BSG S2 and hammered me on a night I thought I'd survive, but a Mayor seems a powerful PR to have and I'd rather scum not learn who they are this early
• Similarly, a confirmed Drunk seems good for scum, so they could avoid that target
• if scum has a roleblocker, they could choose to block the mayor
• if scum has a role cop, they have one less person to target, allowing them more chance to find our other PRs.

[infangthief]

I like faust's plan, because it forces scum to decide right now whether they're going to fakeclaim mayor/drunk or not.

vote: scolapasta and squinty eye at MiX.

[EFHW]

I agree with scolapasta. It's better for mayor to stay unknown.

[Swowl]

Regarding Mayor/Drunk claim thing - I think we should just let it resolve itself.

1. We dunno what roles are in the game.
2. The experiment just potentially helps scum way the hell too much (takes away from day 1 read info, doesn't really matter all that much, potentially outs other prs... and really does not help up catch skum like at all).
3. just gonna say "what pasta said" but with the addition of whoever brought up the value of it essentially being a trigger ic role. Because it is only town, and that person is told mayor or drunk, if they are on a wagon and that wagon is fucked with... then they know what they are. Trigger IC. No reason to force claim it.
4. I swear I had a number 4... but yeah... I don't see the point of "potentially" creating an IC today when we don't actually know if we can or not.

[Swowl]

fun question

If a rolecop was to cop a Drunk - would the result be Drunk or Mayor?

[Swowl]

I want to see the day where we can come up with a good D1 exile to do these experiments on.

FYI, I'm against plans like these. I think mayor's already basically a trigger IC that can be roleblocked. Which is still a trigger IC.

What's a trigger IC?

Like you "choose when to become IC".

[faust]

You may want to lay out the whole plan before encouraging any claims.

But why would I do that?

Because you need to convince people the plan is worthwhile and it's hard to do that if no one knows what it is?
Because we have no reason to believe you are advocating a claim for townie reasons?

It's really not too hard to figure out why one would want the claims I think. I believe in your ability to make up your own mind, or at least pretend to.

[faust]

I'm not convinced it make sense for the Mayor / Drunks to reveal themselves (at least on D1). I mean selfishly, sure, as it helps me try to solve the game. But my guess is we are better off not revealing these PRs to scum so early.

Did you also want to make an argument?

I thought I did with "we are better off not revealing these PRs to scum so early."

But more specifically - if scum learns the identify of one (or more) PRs, they can selectively choose their targets more effectively:
• Maybe I'm just sensitive to it since EFHW was effectively a Mayor in BSG S2 and hammered me on a night I thought I'd survive, but a Mayor seems a powerful PR to have and I'd rather scum not learn who they are this early
• Similarly, a confirmed Drunk seems good for scum, so they could avoid that target
• if scum has a roleblocker, they could choose to block the mayor
• if scum has a role cop, they have one less person to target, allowing them more chance to find our other PRs.

I think you are overvaluing the power. It can be good when scum doesn't expect it, but since it is among the potential roles that's not really an option. Therefore I don't worry too much about it being blocked; the main value of it is as an IC.

[faust]

Regarding Mayor/Drunk claim thing - I think we should just let it resolve itself.

1. We dunno what roles are in the game.
2. The experiment just potentially helps scum way the hell too much (takes away from day 1 read info, doesn't really matter all that much, potentially outs other prs... and really does not help up catch skum like at all).
3. just gonna say "what pasta said" but with the addition of whoever brought up the value of it essentially being a trigger ic role. Because it is only town, and that person is told mayor or drunk, if they are on a wagon and that wagon is fucked with... then they know what they are. Trigger IC. No reason to force claim it.
4. I swear I had a number 4... but yeah... I don't see the point of "potentially" creating an IC today when we don't actually know if we can or not.

1. That's really not an argument in favor of anything.
2. I don't know why the experiment would do any of the things you describe. We can still have a normal scumhunting D1, and just do it when we are getting close to the deadline.
3. That is only true if the opposite of their role isn't also on the wagon. Plus it's not guaranteed that the trigger works on future days.

[mathdude]

fun question

If a rolecop was to cop a Drunk - would the result be Drunk or Mayor?

The result would be that the target has a day-type role.

Role cops in this game are not given exact roles of their target - just the general role category.

[infangthief]

vote: Joseph

Vote: infrangthief
Let's get a wagon started!

You want a wagon? Try scrolapasta.

[MiX]

vote: Joseph

Vote: infrangthief
Let's get a wagon started!

You want a wagon? Try scrolapasta.

Townpoints for this joke 

Are you voting for anyone? If so, why?

[infangthief]

8 town vs 3 scum is balanced, it's 3 exiles for either team. I don't think scum needs to have kingpin. But it's a pretty creative role, I would be surprised if math wasn't tempted to put it in

There's also town nerfs (drunk) that might balance things if there's only 2 scum.

Hm maybe, but I don't think you'd want to put more than one drunk in a setup. That could leave town unable to secure an exile as early as D3.

How does that work? 2 scum, 9 town with 2 drunks, the worst that town can be at D3 is 2 scum 5 town (2 drunk), so they can still exile scum. Seems a stronger set-up for town than 3 scum, 8 town without drunks.

PPE 1

[infangthief]

vote: Joseph

Vote: infrangthief
Let's get a wagon started!

You want a wagon? Try scrolapasta.

Townpoints for this joke 

Are you voting for anyone? If so, why?

Scolapasta. His first post was indeed scummy. And I think it's scum who don't want a general mayor / not-mayor claim. Though now I think at least 4 people have said they're against it, so ... pause for thought.

[infangthief]

I think some of fangs early games were before MiX joined us. But anyway, fang meet miX! He’s also in Europe so you’ll have someone to talk to early in the morning. And Joth! You haven’t met Joth! Joth is awesome. He’s a word guy. And gkrieg! Gkrieg is awesome, too! He’s an OG, and knows the ancient fds lore along with faust.

Thank you for the introductions. Hi mafia-MiX. Europe is small enough, we'll probably bump into each other somewhere. Hi Joth. Hi gkrieg.

Amid the disbelief that I haven't played with any of these before... well,
gkrieg subbed into a game I was in, but after I'd been exiled.
Joth modded the dwarf BM game I was in and I know he's a Discworld fan - Joth, how about we set up a Discworld mafia sometime? I've got some ideas...
And I've been playing Zendo Questions and Anti-Necro games with MiX.

[infangthief]

Actually, where are people? Dylan? gkrieg?

[faust]

Actually, where are people? Dylan? gkrieg?

Yeah these are not the most reliable of posters.

Vote: Dylan

I have this issue where I always mix up scolapasta and Dylan, thus it would be very pro-town for one of them to get exiled early.

[faust]

8 town vs 3 scum is balanced, it's 3 exiles for either team. I don't think scum needs to have kingpin. But it's a pretty creative role, I would be surprised if math wasn't tempted to put it in

There's also town nerfs (drunk) that might balance things if there's only 2 scum.

Hm maybe, but I don't think you'd want to put more than one drunk in a setup. That could leave town unable to secure an exile as early as D3.

How does that work? 2 scum, 9 town with 2 drunks, the worst that town can be at D3 is 2 scum 5 town (2 drunk), so they can still exile scum. Seems a stronger set-up for town than 3 scum, 8 town without drunks.

PPE 1

If it's 2 scum/5 town and 2 town are drunk, then town only has 3 votes available, and it takes 4 to exile...

[faust]

I'm realizing now that it is unclear whether Drunks actually count towards the number needed to exile, but this seems to indicate so:

(with 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to exile)

Worth asking though.

If there are 9 players alive and 2 of them are Drunk, how many votes are required for an exile?

[faust]

(The voting rules also state "a simple majority of living players", and Drunks would be living players.)

[MiX]

Actually, where are people? Dylan? gkrieg?

Yeah these are not the most reliable of posters.

Vote: Dylan

I have this issue where I always mix up scolapasta and Dylan, thus it would be very pro-town for one of them to get exiled early.

gkrieg's pretty reliable. Just don't exile him.

There's an easy way to distinguish between them: Dylan makes more high effort posts.


Also: are you town?

[faust]

Actually, where are people? Dylan? gkrieg?

Yeah these are not the most reliable of posters.

Vote: Dylan

I have this issue where I always mix up scolapasta and Dylan, thus it would be very pro-town for one of them to get exiled early.

gkrieg's pretty reliable. Just don't exile him.

There's an easy way to distinguish between them: Dylan makes more high effort posts.


Also: are you town?

I'm trying really hard not to exile gkrieg. We'll see how it goes.

I am town, thank you for asking.

[jotheonah]

I'm trying not to go down the "people who do/don't want to do this claim plan are scummy" route. I think people are just allowed to have opinions.

I'm usually against early claims, but in this case Mayor/Drunk just seems like a negative utility role to me, frankly. So I'd rather take as much control of it as we can and potentially change it into a more positive utility role. But it appears that we don't have a big enough pro-claim majority to make it happen, so c'est la vie.

For the record, I love mechanics that screw with the vote. One of my favorite ever bastard games I ran was a set up with two scum teams, but one of them had no nightkills and only vote manipulation powers. But I am also aware they can be very frustrating for players because they mess with some of the most foundational assumptions of a mafia game. So I'm intrigued to see how this goes.

[Joseph2302]

I think we should all massclaim. I'll start: I'm the SK

[infangthief]

8 town vs 3 scum is balanced, it's 3 exiles for either team. I don't think scum needs to have kingpin. But it's a pretty creative role, I would be surprised if math wasn't tempted to put it in

There's also town nerfs (drunk) that might balance things if there's only 2 scum.

Hm maybe, but I don't think you'd want to put more than one drunk in a setup. That could leave town unable to secure an exile as early as D3.

How does that work? 2 scum, 9 town with 2 drunks, the worst that town can be at D3 is 2 scum 5 town (2 drunk), so they can still exile scum. Seems a stronger set-up for town than 3 scum, 8 town without drunks.

PPE 1

If it's 2 scum/5 town and 2 town are drunk, then town only has 3 votes available, and it takes 4 to exile...

Oh, er, yes, of course. I got as far as town can lay down more votes than scum and stopped there. But you're right, not enough to exile.
So more than 1 drunk seems pretty unlikely, for any town/scum balance, that might be a useful thing to bear in mind as the game unfolds.

[infangthief]

I think we should all massclaim. I'll start: I'm the SK

Or with the kind of roles in this set-up, you're just as likely to be an anti-SK, or insane-SK, or whatever, without knowing it.
What is the opposite of serial killer? You win if you are the first to die?

[Joseph2302]

I think we should all massclaim. I'll start: I'm the SK

Or with the kind of roles in this set-up, you're just as likely to be an anti-SK, or insane-SK, or whatever, without knowing it.
What is the opposite of serial killer? You win if you are the first to die?

That would be a jester I believe- they win if they are exiled

[MiX]

I think we should all massclaim. I'll start: I'm the SK

Or with the kind of roles in this set-up, you're just as likely to be an anti-SK, or insane-SK, or whatever, without knowing it.
What is the opposite of serial killer? You win if you are the first to die?

Insane SK assumes the existence of a sane SK. Also, I claim SK.

Hey Joseph, got any useful remarks on the game? Joth, for example, already talked enough to get a read on him.

[faust]

I think we should all massclaim. I'll start: I'm the SK

Or with the kind of roles in this set-up, you're just as likely to be an anti-SK, or insane-SK, or whatever, without knowing it.
What is the opposite of serial killer? You win if you are the first to die?

That would be a jester I believe- they win if they are exiled

No I think anti-SK is the win condition "you win when you are dead and everyone else is alive".

[Joseph2302]

I think we should all massclaim. I'll start: I'm the SK

Or with the kind of roles in this set-up, you're just as likely to be an anti-SK, or insane-SK, or whatever, without knowing it.
What is the opposite of serial killer? You win if you are the first to die?

Insane SK assumes the existence of a sane SK. Also, I claim SK.

Hey Joseph, got any useful remarks on the game? Joth, for example, already talked enough to get a read on him.

Well I've been thinking about claiming, so maybe I'll do it:
I'm a mayor (or possibly a drunk)

[MiX]

I think we should all massclaim. I'll start: I'm the SK

Or with the kind of roles in this set-up, you're just as likely to be an anti-SK, or insane-SK, or whatever, without knowing it.
What is the opposite of serial killer? You win if you are the first to die?

That would be a jester I believe- they win if they are exiled

No I think anti-SK is the win condition "you win when you are dead and everyone else is alive".

Ah, the legendary D1 jester.

I think we should all massclaim. I'll start: I'm the SK

Or with the kind of roles in this set-up, you're just as likely to be an anti-SK, or insane-SK, or whatever, without knowing it.
What is the opposite of serial killer? You win if you are the first to die?

Insane SK assumes the existence of a sane SK. Also, I claim SK.

Hey Joseph, got any useful remarks on the game? Joth, for example, already talked enough to get a read on him.

Well I've been thinking about claiming, so maybe I'll do it:
I'm a mayor (or possibly a drunk)

Oh! Ok. Well, step 1 of the mayor plan is complete. Now we need a test subject...

[WestCoastDidds]

Actually, where are people? Dylan? gkrieg?

Yeah these are not the most reliable of posters.

Vote: Dylan

I have this issue where I always mix up scolapasta and Dylan, thus it would be very pro-town for one of them to get exiled early.

This made me laugh out loud! I think scola needs to change his avatar to a picture of noodles so that it is easier to discern them from one another.

[WestCoastDidds]

Ya'll know that I have a hard time with trying to parse set-up stuff.  So, I am reading but have almost nothing to contribute because I don't get it, and I don't want to annoy ya'll too much with pure fluff, which we all know is what I am made of.

I can say that a faust that makes me laugh is usually a town faust.

[EFHW]

I think we should all massclaim. I'll start: I'm the SK

Or with the kind of roles in this set-up, you're just as likely to be an anti-SK, or insane-SK, or whatever, without knowing it.
What is the opposite of serial killer? You win if you are the first to die?

Insane SK assumes the existence of a sane SK. Also, I claim SK.

Hey Joseph, got any useful remarks on the game? Joth, for example, already talked enough to get a read on him.

Well I've been thinking about claiming, so maybe I'll do it:
I'm a mayor (or possibly a drunk)

What was your reasoning for deciding to claim now?

[Joseph2302]

Actually, where are people? Dylan? gkrieg?

Yeah these are not the most reliable of posters.

Vote: Dylan

I have this issue where I always mix up scolapasta and Dylan, thus it would be very pro-town for one of them to get exiled early.

This made me laugh out loud! I think scola needs to change his avatar to a picture of noodles so that it is easier to discern them from one another.

Noodles are not pasta....

PPE:1

[Joseph2302]

I think we should all massclaim. I'll start: I'm the SK

Or with the kind of roles in this set-up, you're just as likely to be an anti-SK, or insane-SK, or whatever, without knowing it.
What is the opposite of serial killer? You win if you are the first to die?

Insane SK assumes the existence of a sane SK. Also, I claim SK.

Hey Joseph, got any useful remarks on the game? Joth, for example, already talked enough to get a read on him.

Well I've been thinking about claiming, so maybe I'll do it:
I'm a mayor (or possibly a drunk)

What was your reasoning for deciding to claim now?

Nothing's really happening, I read the pros/cons from above and think the pros of having information outweighs the cons of giving some information to scum

[scolapasta]

I like faust's plan, because it forces scum to decide right now whether they're going to fakeclaim mayor/drunk or not.

vote: scolapasta and squinty eye at MiX.

Aha! The 3rd EURO domino falls... as I predicted. (more on this later)

• Maybe I'm just sensitive to it since EFHW was effectively a Mayor in BSG S2 and hammered me on a night I thought I'd survive, but a Mayor seems a powerful PR to have and I'd rather scum not learn who they are this early

I think you are overvaluing the power. It can be good when scum doesn't expect it, but since it is among the potential roles that's not really an option. Therefore I don't worry too much about it being blocked; the main value of it is as an IC.

You could be right - like I said, it was especially effective in BSG S2, but that's only one data point. I do think my other reasons are still valid, though.

vote: Joseph

Vote: infrangthief
Let's get a wagon started!

You want a wagon? Try scrolapasta.

Townpoints for this joke 

I don't get the joke.

Are you voting for anyone? If so, why?

Scolapasta. His first post was indeed scummy. And I think it's scum who don't want a general mayor / not-mayor claim. Though now I think at least 4 people have said they're against it, so ... pause for thought.

What's so scummy about my first post? Instead of engaging in RVS (which I don't enjoy), I assert a silly reason to be Mix's RVS vote. I do get if you think my arguments for not claiming are anti-town, that could be seen as scummy, but I tend to think it's more inexperience in playing. (though as you point out, more experiences players were also against it, so 🤷‍♂️? But regardless, your vote came before I made that argument.

I do think there's likely scum in MiX, faust, and fang, in getting me up to 3 votes (when 4 can be effective L-1) so quickly. My first take is Mix was RVS, faust was applying pressure, and fang is the most suspect. But I'll read on.

Actually, where are people? Dylan? gkrieg?

Yeah these are not the most reliable of posters.

Vote: Dylan

I have this issue where I always mix up scolapasta and Dylan, thus it would be very pro-town for one of them to get exiled early.

So was your original vote for me meant to be a vote for Dylan? Why exactly would it be pro town to exile one of us early, anyway?

There's an easy way to distinguish between them: Dylan makes more high effort posts.

I was about to get offended by then, but then realized, yeah, it's true. Though this post here is my attempt to rectify that a little.

I'm trying not to go down the "people who do/don't want to do this claim plan are scummy" route. I think people are just allowed to have opinions.

Yeah, this is what I was alluding to above - I agree with this 100%. I do think scum can try to hide behind these kind of arguments, but it's not going to be definitely indicative.

This made me laugh out loud! I think scola needs to change his avatar to a picture of noodles so that it is easier to discern them from one another.

Hey! scolapasta != pasta, so my avatar is just fine, thank you!

[MiX]

Unvote

[Joseph2302]

Unvote

Voote: Mix

[mathdude]

I'm realizing now that it is unclear whether Drunks actually count towards the number needed to exile, but this seems to indicate so:

(with 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to exile)

Worth asking though.

If there are 9 players alive and 2 of them are Drunk, how many votes are required for an exile?

As was stated right after this question, the rules state a simple majority of alive players is required for exile.  With 9 alive players, 5 votes is required to exile.

[Swowl]

Regarding Mayor/Drunk claim thing - I think we should just let it resolve itself.

1. We dunno what roles are in the game.
2. The experiment just potentially helps scum way the hell too much (takes away from day 1 read info, doesn't really matter all that much, potentially outs other prs... and really does not help up catch skum like at all).
3. just gonna say "what pasta said" but with the addition of whoever brought up the value of it essentially being a trigger ic role. Because it is only town, and that person is told mayor or drunk, if they are on a wagon and that wagon is fucked with... then they know what they are. Trigger IC. No reason to force claim it.
4. I swear I had a number 4... but yeah... I don't see the point of "potentially" creating an IC today when we don't actually know if we can or not.

1. That's really not an argument in favor of anything.
2. I don't know why the experiment would do any of the things you describe. We can still have a normal scumhunting D1, and just do it when we are getting close to the deadline.
3. That is only true if the opposite of their role isn't also on the wagon. Plus it's not guaranteed that the trigger works on future days.

1. It's an argument for it potentially being a waste of time. But too late, as we have the claim.
2. I withdraw this one I guess, that is fair, it doesn't have to mess with anything more than normal wagons.
3. nothing is guaranteed, that is kind of my overall point. Also, I had kind of read the set up as Mayor/Drunk being an either/or thing. Are we not thinking that is the case?

[Swowl]

holy crap your image is a pasta strainer not a spaceship....

[MiX]

holy crap your image is a pasta strainer not a spaceship....

What?? O.o

So, we're doing the mayor plan, right? I don't see a downside anymore.

[gkrieg13]

I like the drunk claiming.

[infangthief]

vote: Joseph

Vote: infrangthief
Let's get a wagon started!

You want a wagon? Try scrolapasta.

Townpoints for this joke 

I don't get the joke.

Joseph put an extra 'r' in my name, and I put an extra 'r' in yours. It is not the most hilarious thing ever.

What's so scummy about my first post? Instead of engaging in RVS (which I don't enjoy), I assert a silly reason to be Mix's RVS vote. I do get if you think my arguments for not claiming are anti-town, that could be seen as scummy, but I tend to think it's more inexperience in playing. (though as you point out, more experiences players were also against it, so 🤷‍♂️? But regardless, your vote came before I made that argument.

I do think there's likely scum in MiX, faust, and fang, in getting me up to 3 votes (when 4 can be effective L-1) so quickly. My first take is Mix was RVS, faust was applying pressure, and fang is the most suspect. But I'll read on.

Ok. So you accept that I am voting for you because I find you scummy. But you think that is more suspect than a vote that is "applying pressure". Interesting.

PPE a few

[infangthief]

What's so scummy about my first post? Instead of engaging in RVS (which I don't enjoy), I assert a silly reason to be Mix's RVS vote. I do get if you think my arguments for not claiming are anti-town, that could be seen as scummy, but I tend to think it's more inexperience in playing. (though as you point out, more experiences players were also against it, so 🤷‍♂️? But regardless, your vote came before I made that argument.

Um, this is your first post after my vote came. To what argument are you referring?

[infangthief]

I like the drunk claiming.

Claiming while drunk or claiming to be drunk?

^^ This is a joke, trying to get more townpoints from MiX.

Why do you say drunk rather than mayor?

[MiX]

I like the drunk claiming.

Claiming while drunk or claiming to be drunk?

^^ This is a joke, trying to get more townpoints from MiX.

Why do you say drunk rather than mayor?

It's working, by the way. But I unvoted scola specifically so I could vote for you if it turns out you're buddying me.

What do you really expect from that question? Mayor would be the same if they learned they're a drunk, but could be a mayor instead, so saying drunk or mayor is equivalent.

[WestCoastDidds]

holy crap your image is a pasta strainer not a spaceship....

What?!?  Holy crap, indeed. Totally a space ship.

[WestCoastDidds]

Mix’s eyeball is also a spaceship.

I’m not sure what to think of Joseph claiming while we’re still talking about the wisdom of claiming.

[MiX]

Mix’s eyeball is also a spaceship.

I’m not sure what to think of Joseph claiming while we’re still talking about the wisdom of claiming.

Chances of Joseph being scum are basically zero. Claiming to be a trigger IC when there's enough time left in the day to trigger said IC is a death sentence for scum. For their plan to work, there would need to have a mayor/drunk in the game, and then at best you get a 1v1.

[infangthief]

It's working, by the way. But I unvoted scola specifically so I could vote for you if it turns out you're buddying me.

Nice. I don't think you need to worry about buddying. You were high on my scum list until you u-turned on the mayor claiming.

So. Are you a Mayor or not?

Why do you say drunk rather than mayor?

What do you really expect from that question? Mayor would be the same if they learned they're a drunk, but could be a mayor instead, so saying drunk or mayor is equivalent.

I will let you know once gkrieg has answered.

[MiX]

It's working, by the way. But I unvoted scola specifically so I could vote for you if it turns out you're buddying me.

Nice. I don't think you need to worry about buddying. You were high on my scum list until you u-turned on the mayor claiming.

So. Are you a Mayor or not?

What u-turn? And why do you wanna know?

[scolapasta]

holy crap your image is a pasta strainer not a spaceship....

What?!?  Holy crap, indeed. Totally a space ship.

One of the reasons I love using this image. I found it so long ago on the interwebs, but now can't find the origin anywhere...

So, we're doing the mayor plan, right? I don't see a downside anymore.

The downside would still be in specifically knowing if Joseph is a Mayor or Drunk. That knowledge is still useful for scum. Surprised you wouldn't see this.

But maybe it's still better for us to know as well? Especially since I'm not sure how we'd be able not to just find out unless Joseph is against whatever wagon we come up with.

Joseph put an extra 'r' in my name, and I put an extra 'r' in yours. It is not the most hilarious thing ever.

I had missed that. Though I did see his later extra "o" in vote - I assume that'll make it not count, but I don't see why Joseph would necessarily do that on purpose.

What's so scummy about my first post? Instead of engaging in RVS (which I don't enjoy), I assert a silly reason to be Mix's RVS vote. I do get if you think my arguments for not claiming are anti-town, that could be seen as scummy, but I tend to think it's more inexperience in playing. (though as you point out, more experiences players were also against it, so 🤷‍♂️? But regardless, your vote came before I made that argument.

Um, this is your first post after my vote came. To what argument are you referring?

You're right. I got confused because later you said:

Scolapasta. His first post was indeed scummy. And I think it's scum who don't want a general mayor / not-mayor claim. Though now I think at least 4 people have said they're against it, so ... pause for thought.

and referenced my first post as your primary reason for voting for me. Either way, I've already stated why I don't think different opinions on the plan in necessarily scummy so a 3rd vote on me there still seems suspect. TBH so does faust's as well, which is why I haven't placed a vote myself yet.

[MiX]

So, we're doing the mayor plan, right? I don't see a downside anymore.

The downside would still be in specifically knowing if Joseph is a Mayor or Drunk. That knowledge is still useful for scum. Surprised you wouldn't see this.

But maybe it's still better for us to know as well? Especially since I'm not sure how we'd be able not to just find out unless Joseph is against whatever wagon we come up with.

It's important for Joseph to know if he's mayor or drunk.

[jotheonah]

It's so relatable, getting so drunk you think you're the mayor. Who among us hasn't had that happen at least once?

[WestCoastDidds]

It's so relatable, getting so drunk you think you're the mayor. Who among us hasn't had that happen at least once?

Shhhhh….Joth! It’s a secret!

[Swowl]

It's so relatable, getting so drunk you think you're the mayor. Who among us hasn't had that happen at least once?

Shhhhh….Joth! It’s a secret!

I am a mayor of a city of chipmunks. No clue how it happened.

[Swowl]

It's working, by the way. But I unvoted scola specifically so I could vote for you if it turns out you're buddying me.

Nice. I don't think you need to worry about buddying. You were high on my scum list until you u-turned on the mayor claiming.

So. Are you a Mayor or not?

why are you assuming MiX is mayor? or *could be* I suppose.

[EFHW]

I like the drunk claiming.

Claiming while drunk or claiming to be drunk?

^^ This is a joke, trying to get more townpoints from MiX.

Why do you say drunk rather than mayor?

It's working, by the way. But I unvoted scola specifically so I could vote for you if it turns out you're buddying me.

What do you really expect from that question? Mayor would be the same if they learned they're a drunk, but could be a mayor instead, so saying drunk or mayor is equivalent.

It also is possible we have both or even two of the same role. It's not ruled out in the setup. And they would all think they were mayor.

[Swowl]

I like the drunk claiming.

Claiming while drunk or claiming to be drunk?

^^ This is a joke, trying to get more townpoints from MiX.

Why do you say drunk rather than mayor?

It's working, by the way. But I unvoted scola specifically so I could vote for you if it turns out you're buddying me.

What do you really expect from that question? Mayor would be the same if they learned they're a drunk, but could be a mayor instead, so saying drunk or mayor is equivalent.

It also is possible we have both or even two of the same role. It's not ruled out in the setup. And they would all think they were mayor.

Why have one claim and not all claim then?
I don't think having any claim was a good idea... but if we are gonna have one do - by that logic - should not all of them?

[faust]

So, we're doing the mayor plan, right? I don't see a downside anymore.

We cannot really do the plan unless we are sure there are no other drunk Mayors out there.

[Swowl]

So, we're doing the mayor plan, right? I don't see a downside anymore.

We cannot really do the plan unless we are sure there are no other drunk Mayors out there.

Regarding Mayor/Drunk claim thing - I think we should just let it resolve itself.

1. We dunno what roles are in the game.

[Swowl]

but also obviously from my pre-previous post - I agree with faust. If we are gonna do the thing we need to do the thing.

The downside to this is obviously that it tells skum who either has an extra vote or who has no vote, giving them targets or targets to aim away from.

[faust]

This should be abundantly clear by now, but I am not a Mayor/Drunk.

[faust]

Also,

Vote: MiX

[infangthief]

It's working, by the way. But I unvoted scola specifically so I could vote for you if it turns out you're buddying me.

Nice. I don't think you need to worry about buddying. You were high on my scum list until you u-turned on the mayor claiming.

So. Are you a Mayor or not?

why are you assuming MiX is mayor? or *could be* I suppose.

Because of his first post in the game:

Friendly reminder that L-1 is hammer in this setup.

I read this as a potential mayor breadcrumb.
Joseph pointed out that mayor is only a possible role, and faust pointed out that even X/2 could be hammer, but MiX's precise "L-1" suggests he knows there is a mayor.
It is a post that he could, if he finds it convenient later in the game, refer to as a breadcrumb. And I trust in scum-Mix's ability to lay such a breadcrumb just as much as mayor-MiX.

I think it is reasonable to explore this, now that he doesn't see any downsides to the mayor claiming plan.

[infangthief]

This should be abundantly clear by now, but I am not a Mayor/Drunk.

Yeh, me neither.
I wish I was. 8 or 9 mayors/drunks all claiming now would be legendary.

[MiX]

That's not a breadcrumb. That's a fact. A fact that we could've forgotten.

I won't claim if I'm mayor or not.

[MiX]

Also,

Vote: MiX

Vote: faust

[infangthief]

faust, why did you move your vote away from scolapasta?

PPE: 2!

[faust]

faust, why did you move your vote away from scolapasta?

PPE: 2!

Because there were other people that I would rather vote for.

[faust]

Also,

Vote: MiX

Vote: faust

lame.

[faust]

So, we're doing the mayor plan, right? I don't see a downside anymore.

I won't claim if I'm mayor or not.

How exactly is that gonna work?

[infangthief]

In other news, Joth's posts have made a lot of sense.
And where is Dylan? Check the mousetraps someone.
Mix's spaceship is an eyeball? The next thing I see after spaceship is short-chap-in-woolly-jumpers-running-down-a-snowy-hillside.
vote: MiX
vote count please I know we don't get actual numbers, but it seems important to know whether Joseph's "voote" is being registered or not.

[infangthief]

faust, why did you move your vote away from scolapasta?

PPE: 2!

Because there were other people that I would rather vote for.

scola was under pressure at 3 votes and you moved away before he'd even responded.
To dylan. How is that helpful?

[infangthief]

prod request: Dylan Come solve this, please.

[faust]

faust, why did you move your vote away from scolapasta?

PPE: 2!

Because there were other people that I would rather vote for.

scola was under pressure at 3 votes and you moved away before he'd even responded.
To dylan. How is that helpful?

It is helpful for my vote to be on the person I most want to see exiled, in general. Sometimes, you have to compromise, but I don't think this was such a time. Early-game pressure isn't all that helpful.

[faust]

Also I was bored.

[Joseph2302]

I like the drunk claiming.

Claiming while drunk or claiming to be drunk?

^^ This is a joke, trying to get more townpoints from MiX.

Why do you say drunk rather than mayor?

Surely the drunk doesn't know they're drunk?

"Drunk (day*) - their public vote (during the day) does not count; is told they are "Mayor" and flips Mayor upon death."

So the drunk believes they're mayor. Which is why I said that I'm mayor, but could be drunk

[MiX]

So, we're doing the mayor plan, right? I don't see a downside anymore.

I won't claim if I'm mayor or not.

How exactly is that gonna work?

Mayor plan is just, we get someone to 4 votes, then Joseph votes. If there's no exile, then we get a non-mayor to vote, so on and so forth. Thus we can determine what Joseph is. A hidden mayor also gets information, so it's fine.

[MiX]

Also I was bored.

So you voted for me? Okay, fair. Doesn't remove my vote from you though.

[Dylan32]

prod request: Dylan Come solve this, please.

Sorry, virtual work conference had my attention the last two days.

Please hold off on the plan for like 3 hours. By then I'll have time to sort out my thoughts now that I'm caught up but I'm running out the door right now.

[faust]

So, we're doing the mayor plan, right? I don't see a downside anymore.

I won't claim if I'm mayor or not.

How exactly is that gonna work?

Mayor plan is just, we get someone to 4 votes, then Joseph votes. If there's no exile, then we get a non-mayor to vote, so on and so forth. Thus we can determine what Joseph is. A hidden mayor also gets information, so it's fine.

We can't though, can we? If e.g. you/Joseph are Mayor + Drunk, and we get someone to 4 votes including you, then we won't get the information we want.

[faust]

Also I was bored.

So you voted for me? Okay, fair. Doesn't remove my vote from you though.

I would like to clarify that the question addressed with the above post was why I changed my vote from scolapasta to Dylan and had nothing to do with you.

Nice try though.

[faust]

So, we're doing the mayor plan, right? I don't see a downside anymore.

I won't claim if I'm mayor or not.

How exactly is that gonna work?

Mayor plan is just, we get someone to 4 votes, then Joseph votes. If there's no exile, then we get a non-mayor to vote, so on and so forth. Thus we can determine what Joseph is. A hidden mayor also gets information, so it's fine.

We can't though, can we? If e.g. you/Joseph are Mayor + Drunk, and we get someone to 4 votes including you, then we won't get the information we want.

Plus your plan states we "get a non-Mayor to vote". How is that supposed to work when we don't know who the non-Mayors are?

[MiX]

Also I was bored.

So you voted for me? Okay, fair. Doesn't remove my vote from you though.

I would like to clarify that the question addressed with the above post was why I changed my vote from scolapasta to Dylan and had nothing to do with you.

Nice try though.

Right, I forgot about that vote. That makes much more sense, thanks.

[MiX]

So, we're doing the mayor plan, right? I don't see a downside anymore.

I won't claim if I'm mayor or not.

How exactly is that gonna work?

Mayor plan is just, we get someone to 4 votes, then Joseph votes. If there's no exile, then we get a non-mayor to vote, so on and so forth. Thus we can determine what Joseph is. A hidden mayor also gets information, so it's fine.

We can't though, can we? If e.g. you/Joseph are Mayor + Drunk, and we get someone to 4 votes including you, then we won't get the information we want.

Plus your plan states we "get a non-Mayor to vote". How is that supposed to work when we don't know who the non-Mayors are?

Didn't one claim already?

[EFHW]

Can we talk about something else now?

Joseph, why did you vote MiX here?

Unvote

Voote: Mix

[faust]

So, we're doing the mayor plan, right? I don't see a downside anymore.

I won't claim if I'm mayor or not.

How exactly is that gonna work?

Mayor plan is just, we get someone to 4 votes, then Joseph votes. If there's no exile, then we get a non-mayor to vote, so on and so forth. Thus we can determine what Joseph is. A hidden mayor also gets information, so it's fine.

We can't though, can we? If e.g. you/Joseph are Mayor + Drunk, and we get someone to 4 votes including you, then we won't get the information we want.

Plus your plan states we "get a non-Mayor to vote". How is that supposed to work when we don't know who the non-Mayors are?

Didn't one claim already?

So we're betting on fang and me not already being on wagon and also being available close enough to not make the process drag out?

[Joseph2302]

Can we talk about something else now?

Joseph, why did you vote MiX here?

Unvote

Voote: Mix

Don't like unvotes. We need wagons not no-exiles

[MiX]

So we're betting on fang and me not already being on wagon and also being available close enough to not make the process drag out?

I am, at least.

Can we talk about something else now?

Joseph, why did you vote MiX here?

Unvote

Voote: Mix

What do you think about me, faust, scola or infang?

[Dylan32]

Ok. So I saw faust's proposed claim plan the other day when he first posted it, held off because nobody had really responded to it yet and I wanted to get a feel for whether other people thought it was a good idea or not as a sanity check for myself. Then I lost track of time because of work, and now there has been a claim.

I am Mayor/Drunk.

Obviously one of the two possibilities would be good for town to keep around/scum to kill and the other is vice versa.

I've been trying to figure out a way to change the plan to verify that we are telling the truth without necessarily revealing which is which yet, like we coordinate to both vote at L-2 close enough together where we can't tell if the first vote was mayor and ended it or if the second was mayor and ended it, but unfortunately that only would rule out drunk+liar, not mayor+liar. However, a claimed mayor who doesn't trigger an exile at L-2 wouldn't be verified drunk until a normal voter votes and triggers the exile to prove that the drunk didn't actually put the person to L-1. So I'm not sure how to go about this besides doing one at a time.

[MiX]

Well obviously now we HAVE to test one of you. The plan is the same: put someone at 4 votes, have one of you vote, then non-mayors vote until there's an exile. Just be on different wagons.

[Dylan32]

Wait! I think I got it.

1. At X-3, Joseph and I both vote to verify that there aren't 3 votes between the two of us, because I highly doubt 2 mayors is a real possibility. No exile rules out mayor/scum, while an exile means one of the two of us lied (or the setup is whack lol).

2. One more person votes, and if an exile happens, that means we are mayor + drunk (purely from a neutral perspective, we could be the scum team in this case, but that assumes we would actually link ourselves together like this D1 when individually mayor/drunk is publicly verifiably false using faust's original idea).

3. If no exile happened at 2, it's either drunk/drunk or drunk/liar. One more vote would either be X-1 or an exile respectively.

[Dylan32]

Also that last post was ppe 1

[MiX]

I'm not a fan of making a conflict at best. I would like to confirm one of you as town. Then tomorrow we can confirm the other one.

[Dylan32]

No, what I laid out gives the result of either: both telling the truth, or at least one of us lied. It can completely verify us both at the same time or gives us a 50/50, which would be bad for scum to have after D1.

[Dylan32]

Honestly, 2 ICs or at least one scum in two would be a fantastic D1 result.

[Dylan32]

And if we end up in a scenario where Joseph lied, we can easily test us individually tomorrow, it's not like a normal 1v1 where we have to flip one to figure out the alignment of the other.

[MiX]

If we have all mayor claims, and we test both if the first one comes out drunk, then my plan is better...

...but as it stands, I guess you're right.

[Dylan32]

Like, our alignments can be determined through the course of normal scum hunting outside of our set, so there's really no reason to give scum more information than we have to here (as in which of us is which thing). If one of us lied, scum already knows whether or not Joseph and I are telling the truth, but they don't know which of the two roles the truthful claimer(s) have. Testing individually confirms that individuals claim to everyone, but also fills in the gaps for scum without actually telling town anything about the other person. Testing us both together gets us much closer to knowing everything that scum knows without giving them any info they didn't already have, thus mitigating the information advantage that is inherent to scum.

ppe 1

[Dylan32]

Like, our alignments can be determined through the course of normal scum hunting outside of our set, so there's really no reason to give scum more information than we have to here (as in which of us is which thing). If one of us lied, scum already knows whether or not Joseph and I are telling the truth, but they don't know which of the two roles the truthful claimer(s) have. Testing individually confirms that individual's claim to everyone, but also fills in the gaps for scum without actually telling town anything about the other person. Testing us both together gets us much closer to knowing everything that scum knows without giving them any info they didn't already have, thus mitigating the information advantage that is inherent to scum.

ppe 1

possibly unnecessary edit for clarity

[faust]

We shouldn't do any testing. We have two ICs now, no need to tell scum which is the useful one. Dylan and Joseph should try to only vote together as most likely they're 1 Mayor/1 Drunk.

[gkrieg13]

I like the drunk claiming.

Claiming while drunk or claiming to be drunk?

^^ This is a joke, trying to get more townpoints from MiX.

Why do you say drunk rather than mayor?

Just to make it clear that they might be a completely voteless VT.

[scolapasta]

We shouldn't do any testing. We have two ICs now, no need to tell scum which is the useful one. Dylan and Joseph should try to only vote together as most likely they're 1 Mayor/1 Drunk.

This isn't completely true though - one could still be lying scum. Though that would be risky if the real one were a drunk (not so, if the real one were Mayor).

I do agree that if they're both town, they're likely one of each (both from the obvious probability side, but also from the game design side). Though, of course, we also don't know how many scum there actually are - i.e. maybe two drunks with only 2 scum is not that crazy? I don't know for that, I defer to those who have more experience designing games.

So I was in favor of no claiming at all, but now that we've had two claims, I need to think more on whether I prefer Dylan's plan (which I give town points for being clever in its way of trying to hide some info) or faust's no test plan.

[EFHW]

I'm  suspicious of Dylan here. I think he saw all the town cred Joseph was getting and decided he wanted some, too. The flaw in my argument is that we could possibly identify him as not having either role in the course of our tests.

[scolapasta]

I also wondered of this was some kind of gambit Dylan would try to pull off. But discounted it based on his suggested plan. (I don't think he would predict that faust would suggest not doing the tests, though if he had, that would work so well for scum!Dylan).

[jotheonah]

I also wondered of this was some kind of gambit Dylan would try to pull off. But discounted it based on his suggested plan. (I don't think he would predict that faust would suggest not doing the tests, though if he had, that would work so well for scum!Dylan).

Unless of course faust is his partner and the whole interaction was scripted.

[Dylan32]

The problem with me or Joseph fake claiming this is that we can be proven liars without the opportunity cost of scumhunting elsewhere. Normally with a claim that can't be proven in thread, town has to decide if they will wait for night actions to verify the claim to some degree, like a cop or whatever, or else they have to either just decide to ride or die and trust the claim through the end of the game, or they have to exile and flip the claimant to check their claims, at which point not only did they potentially exile a truthful claim, they also miss out on scumhunting and flipping someone else outside the claim.

In this scenario though, we can keep looking for scum outside of Joseph and I WITHOUT giving up the ability to demonstrably prove whether or not we told the truth. I could see this being a potential fakeclaim later in the day when choices have to be made, since in a lot of the scenarios, the exile goes through on the 3rd party if the drunkmayor is lying, but D1 where we can create 2 ICs (or 50/50 a scum), and still have time to individually test both of us on future wagons without sacrificing other scumhunting makes this a terrible fakeclaim. We should 100% do the (or some other plan if there is one better) test us both plan today, because if we both IC ourselves then we take tomorrow from an assumed 2/7 to 2/5 odds of randomly hitting scum, which is a better than 10% increase. If one of us lied, D2 we most likely have a 1/5 scum to look for while verifying with certainty which one of the 2 drunk mayors is scum.

I also wondered of this was some kind of gambit Dylan would try to pull off. But discounted it based on his suggested plan. (I don't think he would predict that faust would suggest not doing the tests, though if he had, that would work so well for scum!Dylan).

Unless of course faust is his partner and the whole interaction was scripted.

The simple fact is, whether or not faust and I had anything planned out here, the simple fact is we just wouldn't make it to the end of the game without verifying a mayor claim, even if town does decide to not do anything with it today. I'm flattered that it was even suggested that faust and I could/would have been capable of doing something like this, but if you really think about it, it's just not something that I can convince myself would work as scum (when thinking about potential for Joseph planning out a play like this for me).

[mathdude]

vote count please I know we don't get actual numbers, but it seems important to know whether Joseph's "voote" is being registered or not.

I am counting it, recognizing that it may have been intentional or accidental, but in a quick skim for bold "votes", it looks like a vote, so it counts.

Reminder: Day 1 ends at 3:00pm EST on Tuesday, December 7th

Vote "count" 1.1:
Votes for faust: MiX
votes for jotheonah: Dylan32
votes for MiX: infangthief, Joseph2302, faust
votes for WestCoastDidds: gkrieg13

not voting: Swowl, WestCoastDidds, scolapasta, EFHW, jotheonah
(with 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to exile)
[/b]

[MiX]

Cool VC. Let me just structure it as standard:

Vote Count 1.1:

faust (1): MiX
jotheonah (1): Dylan32
MiX (3): infangthief, Joseph2302, faust
WestCoastDidds (1): gkrieg13

Day 1 ends at 3:00pm EST on Tuesday, December 7th


I reread Dylan and I think he's town. I see very little reason for scum!Joseph to claim when he did. So I'm okay with calling them ICs.

Vote: EFHW, let's move on with the day.

[scolapasta]

I also wondered of this was some kind of gambit Dylan would try to pull off. But discounted it based on his suggested plan. (I don't think he would predict that faust would suggest not doing the tests, though if he had, that would work so well for scum!Dylan).

Unless of course faust is his partner and the whole interaction was scripted.

I guess?? Seems like a big thing to plan on N0. How would that work exactly?

Dylan: "If someone claims DrunkMayor, then I'll claim it too, suggest a plan to try to prove it, and then you quickly nix that plan"

Seems too... I don't know the right word, precise.

[scolapasta]

Wow, how does MiX already have 3 (well, 2-4) votes on him already? Interestingly, again both fang and faust are on that.

[Dylan32]

Oh, forgot I had been voting from RVS.

Unvote

pending confirmation on if we are following through on any sort of plan, which I strongly support. Mix is currently at X-3, which is the point Joseph and I should vote if we want to do that, but I'm not sure if MiX is the person to use for this. I'll reread and see who I think is a good bet in a while.

[faust]

In this scenario though, we can keep looking for scum outside of Joseph and I WITHOUT giving up the ability to demonstrably prove whether or not we told the truth. I could see this being a potential fakeclaim later in the day when choices have to be made, since in a lot of the scenarios, the exile goes through on the 3rd party if the drunkmayor is lying, but D1 where we can create 2 ICs (or 50/50 a scum), and still have time to individually test both of us on future wagons without sacrificing other scumhunting makes this a terrible fakeclaim. We should 100% do the (or some other plan if there is one better) test us both plan today, because if we both IC ourselves then we take tomorrow from an assumed 2/7 to 2/5 odds of randomly hitting scum, which is a better than 10% increase. If one of us lied, D2 we most likely have a 1/5 scum to look for while verifying with certainty which one of the 2 drunk mayors is scum.

The fact that all of this is this case is proof enough that you're not scum, really. That is just not a position scum wants to put themselves into.

The fact of the matter is though, we will probably still want both of you on the exile wagon if we don't decide to go for some elaborate test, because it's going to be hard to get a town-controlled wagon otherwise. Thus we will most likely gather some information by the end of the Day even if we don't actively work towards it.

[jotheonah]

I also wondered of this was some kind of gambit Dylan would try to pull off. But discounted it based on his suggested plan. (I don't think he would predict that faust would suggest not doing the tests, though if he had, that would work so well for scum!Dylan).

Unless of course faust is his partner and the whole interaction was scripted.

I guess?? Seems like a big thing to plan on N0. How would that work exactly?

Dylan: "If someone claims DrunkMayor, then I'll claim it too, suggest a plan to try to prove it, and then you quickly nix that plan"

Seems too... I don't know the right word, precise.

it seems exceedingly unlikely, but I felt compelled to mention it

[jotheonah]

do people actually think MiX is scum? And if so why?

[infangthief]

We shouldn't do any testing. We have two ICs now, no need to tell scum which is the useful one. Dylan and Joseph should try to only vote together as most likely they're 1 Mayor/1 Drunk.

Cool. Yes, this is the plan. Two IC's is a good outcome, and we still have plenty of day 1 to get on with scum hunting.

[infangthief]

I also wondered of this was some kind of gambit Dylan would try to pull off. But discounted it based on his suggested plan. (I don't think he would predict that faust would suggest not doing the tests, though if he had, that would work so well for scum!Dylan).

I mean, there I was happy that Dylan was IC but... this here is a double scumslip isn't it? Anyone read it differently?
unvote

[MiX]

I also wondered of this was some kind of gambit Dylan would try to pull off. But discounted it based on his suggested plan. (I don't think he would predict that faust would suggest not doing the tests, though if he had, that would work so well for scum!Dylan).

I mean, there I was happy that Dylan was IC but... this here is a double scumslip isn't it? Anyone read it differently?
unvote

I don't see it. I think it's a strange sentence overall, but I don't see how it's partnered with Dylan.

[infangthief]

do people actually think MiX is scum? And if so why?

I do. At least, I did before scola's post.
Biggest reason so far is how he was trying to determine whether Joseph is mayor or drunk when that was the only claim.

[WestCoastDidds]

Cool VC. Let me just structure it as standard:

Vote Count 1.1:

faust (1): MiX
jotheonah (1): Dylan32
MiX (3): infangthief, Joseph2302, faust
WestCoastDidds (1): gkrieg13

Day 1 ends at 3:00pm EST on Tuesday, December 7th


I reread Dylan and I think he's town. I see very little reason for scum!Joseph to claim when he did. So I'm okay with calling them ICs.

Vote: EFHW, let's move on with the day.

Yeah, but why??

[Joseph2302]

I think Dylan is town based on the posts
Will be around more tomorrow (technically today, Saturday) later on

[Swowl]

Busy day sorry - I do not think either of the Mayor claims are likely skum.

Need to actually read todays posts properly through- will do this evening.

[EFHW]

Can we talk about something else now?

Joseph, why did you vote MiX here?

Unvote

Voote: Mix

Don't like unvotes. We need wagons not no-exiles

So it was a policy vote? And what should we make of your recent unvote?

[Swowl]

Right, so.

It's probably good to make an IC, right?

So we need a Mayor/Drunk to claim please.

Actually all of them need to claim, otherwise this won't work.

What was "this"?

[infangthief]

I also wondered of this was some kind of gambit Dylan would try to pull off. But discounted it based on his suggested plan. (I don't think he would predict that faust would suggest not doing the tests, though if he had, that would work so well for scum!Dylan).

I mean, there I was happy that Dylan was IC but... this here is a double scumslip isn't it? Anyone read it differently?
unvote

I don't see it. I think it's a strange sentence overall, but I don't see how it's partnered with Dylan.

There are three sentences, but it's the first one. Why Dylan? Very reasonable to wonder whether a scum player might try fake claiming mayor/drunk. But instead of saying "a scum player" he said "Dylan". Am I missing something? Is there some meta about Dylan that I don't know, that he tries this sort of thing regularly?

[infangthief]

Cool VC. Let me just structure it as standard:

Vote Count 1.1:

faust (1): MiX
jotheonah (1): Dylan32
MiX (3): infangthief, Joseph2302, faust
WestCoastDidds (1): gkrieg13

Day 1 ends at 3:00pm EST on Tuesday, December 7th


I reread Dylan and I think he's town. I see very little reason for scum!Joseph to claim when he did. So I'm okay with calling them ICs.

Vote: EFHW, let's move on with the day.

Yeah, but why??

I'd be more interested to know what you think of EFHW, actually.

[faust]

Right, so.

It's probably good to make an IC, right?

So we need a Mayor/Drunk to claim please.

Actually all of them need to claim, otherwise this won't work.

What was "this"?

Testing the claims.

[faust]

I also wondered of this was some kind of gambit Dylan would try to pull off. But discounted it based on his suggested plan. (I don't think he would predict that faust would suggest not doing the tests, though if he had, that would work so well for scum!Dylan).

I mean, there I was happy that Dylan was IC but... this here is a double scumslip isn't it? Anyone read it differently?
unvote

I don't see it. I think it's a strange sentence overall, but I don't see how it's partnered with Dylan.

There are three sentences, but it's the first one. Why Dylan? Very reasonable to wonder whether a scum player might try fake claiming mayor/drunk. But instead of saying "a scum player" he said "Dylan". Am I missing something? Is there some meta about Dylan that I don't know, that he tries this sort of thing regularly?

I'm confused about your confusion. Dylan was the most recent player to claim, so of course he is going to be the topic of discussion when talking about potential fakeclaims?

[infangthief]

I also wondered of this was some kind of gambit Dylan would try to pull off. But discounted it based on his suggested plan. (I don't think he would predict that faust would suggest not doing the tests, though if he had, that would work so well for scum!Dylan).

I mean, there I was happy that Dylan was IC but... this here is a double scumslip isn't it? Anyone read it differently?
unvote

I don't see it. I think it's a strange sentence overall, but I don't see how it's partnered with Dylan.

There are three sentences, but it's the first one. Why Dylan? Very reasonable to wonder whether a scum player might try fake claiming mayor/drunk. But instead of saying "a scum player" he said "Dylan". Am I missing something? Is there some meta about Dylan that I don't know, that he tries this sort of thing regularly?

I'm confused about your confusion. Dylan was the most recent player to claim, so of course he is going to be the topic of discussion when talking about potential fakeclaims?

"gambit Dylan would try to pull off".
The "would" here shows scola was thinking this before Dylan claimed. By the time he's claimed he's already trying to pull off the gambit. Or, you know, is actually mayor/drunk and not trying to pull off a gambit at all.

vote: scolapasta

[infangthief]

Like, when you suggested the plan of mayors claiming, faust, I started to think through the likelihood of a scum player fakeclaiming. (And I thought it unlikely, and the further conversation people had about testing claims seemed helpful in dissuading fakeclaims.)

But it seems like scola has been thinking through his scum team wondering who would fake claim. "well there's me, I could, but I'd rather say I'm against the plan. But now how about Dylan, maybe he'll try?"

[faust]

FWIW, I don't read that at all. It just seems to me that scolapasta looked at the claim like "okay, either Dylan is town or scum. Let's consider the hypothetical where he is scum. In htat hypothetical, would he try to pull off such a gambit?"

I don't think the "would" implies some sort of past tense here.

[MiX]

The post before scola's also talks about Dylan, so I don't think it's a stretch to then think about Dylan primarily.

[Joseph2302]

Cool VC. Let me just structure it as standard:

Vote Count 1.1:

faust (1): MiX
jotheonah (1): Dylan32
MiX (3): infangthief, Joseph2302, faust
WestCoastDidds (1): gkrieg13

Day 1 ends at 3:00pm EST on Tuesday, December 7th


I reread Dylan and I think he's town. I see very little reason for scum!Joseph to claim when he did. So I'm okay with calling them ICs.

Vote: EFHW, let's move on with the day.

Why EFHW?

[EFHW]

vote: fang. Bad case.

[Swowl]

Right, so.

It's probably good to make an IC, right?

So we need a Mayor/Drunk to claim please.

Actually all of them need to claim, otherwise this won't work.

What was "this"?

Testing the claims.

But then they claimed and you said no testing should be done right? What changed?

[MiX]

Just reread EFHW. I see no reason to think she's town. She focused on both mayor claims, and is now voting fang for acting scummy. Feels like the easiest thing in the world.

Vote: EFHW, let's move on with the day.

Why EFHW?

Why not? I felt like EFHW hadn't done anything.

[Dylan32]

--snip the setup--

*Note: Day-type roles that are role-blocked at night become a VT the following day (both Mayor and Drunk revert to VT for the day).

So this line actually suggests that today is the only day where we can guarantee that testing the drunkmayors will yield true results, because if Joseph or I are roleblocked at night, the next day we would be VT and actually have 1 vote.

I don't know whether or not this would be something scum!faust would have noticed, but I am starting to see a potential scum narrative for his play so far. Propose revealing mayor/drunk to reveal the player that would likely be IC later so they could be killed before it matters. When two people claimed, back off of the plan to verify the ICs so that scum could leave them alive just long enough to throw suspicion at the claims (given the potential for town to have an insane cop, that is potentially another way we are made to look sus) and then when town feels the need to verify our claims, one of us could be roleblocked and framed to look like a liar. Obviously there are several assumptions in this, but it's the best case I've come up with so far.

[faust]

Right, so.

It's probably good to make an IC, right?

So we need a Mayor/Drunk to claim please.

Actually all of them need to claim, otherwise this won't work.

What was "this"?

Testing the claims.

But then they claimed and you said no testing should be done right? What changed?

That was always my intention, but until the claims I had to maintain the idea that we would verify claims in order to discourage fakeclaims.

[faust]

I don't know whether or not this would be something scum!faust would have noticed, but I am starting to see a potential scum narrative for his play so far. Propose revealing mayor/drunk to reveal the player that would likely be IC later so they could be killed before it matters. When two people claimed, back off of the plan to verify the ICs so that scum could leave them alive just long enough to throw suspicion at the claims (given the potential for town to have an insane cop, that is potentially another way we are made to look sus) and then when town feels the need to verify our claims, one of us could be roleblocked and framed to look like a liar. Obviously there are several assumptions in this, but it's the best case I've come up with so far.

If I am following you, you think that my plan as scum was:
- remove 2 townies from the exilepool today
- use the scum Roleblocker in a way that potentially helps town (by allowing a Drunk to vote)
- profit by having one of the two ICs that I created no longer be an IC, but instead in the position they would have been without my plan, and the other one still an IC

I mean... I like to think that I can come up with better plans.

[Dylan32]

I don't know whether or not this would be something scum!faust would have noticed, but I am starting to see a potential scum narrative for his play so far. Propose revealing mayor/drunk to reveal the player that would likely be IC later so they could be killed before it matters. When two people claimed, back off of the plan to verify the ICs so that scum could leave them alive just long enough to throw suspicion at the claims (given the potential for town to have an insane cop, that is potentially another way we are made to look sus) and then when town feels the need to verify our claims, one of us could be roleblocked and framed to look like a liar. Obviously there are several assumptions in this, but it's the best case I've come up with so far.

If I am following you, you think that my plan as scum was:
- remove 2 townies from the exilepool today
- use the scum Roleblocker in a way that potentially helps town (by allowing a Drunk to vote)
- profit by having one of the two ICs that I created no longer be an IC, but instead in the position they would have been without my plan, and the other one still an IC

I mean... I like to think that I can come up with better plans.

- The fact two people claimed mayor probably wasn't what you would have expected to happen, thinking only one or the other being in the setup would be more likely
- If we ran up a wagon on a mayor we would claim before being exiled and then likely be tested and verified IC anyway, so they ultimately weren't in the exile pool anyway
- Say N1 you roleblock drunk!me and then we go into D2 and want to officially prove Joseph and I are IC. We vote at L-3 and surprise, the exile goes through, and now the assumption would have been one of us lied, so the next day town would be figuring out who to exile between Joseph and I instead of actually finding the real scum.
- If the game is still going D4 because we haven't found scum and we haven't actually publicly proven our IC status beyond just people believing the claims, there's a case to be made that at that point you should absolutely have Joseph and I prove it just to make sure neither of us is lying. Using the roleblocker that day to frame us and get a late game misexile of what otherwise should have been an IC would be really good.

Right, so.

It's probably good to make an IC, right?

So we need a Mayor/Drunk to claim please.

Actually all of them need to claim, otherwise this won't work.

What was "this"?

Testing the claims.

But then they claimed and you said no testing should be done right? What changed?

That was always my intention, but until the claims I had to maintain the idea that we would verify claims in order to discourage fakeclaims.

The fact you did actually plan in advance to not verify the claims could corroborate the narrative here since you had thought through the whole thing and didn't actually want to create an IC. Sus out the claim, kill the IC N1 instead of letting them make it to the late game when an IC most helps the PoE. As it is, getting two claims and not proving them would be even better for you because you could kill one and leave the other alive and let them be framed later.

Either way, now that I've point out that scum could manipulate our proof on later days, we either need to do it today or just agree that Joseph and I are ICs for the game since any failed vote tests have a decent chance of being a false scum result. I strongly believe we should test now rather than putting it off. If anyone hits X-3 in the next 24ish hours after I get up in the morning, I'll vote, and hopefully Joseph will follow it up, and that would at least rule out the mayor+scum possibility, and if we want to take it further we can coordinate.

[faust]

Eh I guess we're doing this.

- The fact two people claimed mayor probably wasn't what you would have expected to happen, thinking only one or the other being in the setup would be more likely

I always thought that 2 claims were more likely than one. Hence my continued pushing for claims after Joseph claimed.

- If we ran up a wagon on a mayor we would claim before being exiled and then likely be tested and verified IC anyway, so they ultimately weren't in the exile pool anyway

You have a very rosy view of how end-of-day situations play out. When do we ever run a wagon to intent to hammer with enough time left to create another wagon and perform a test that requires specific people to vote at specific times?

- Say N1 you roleblock drunk!me and then we go into D2 and want to officially prove Joseph and I are IC. We vote at L-3 and surprise, the exile goes through, and now the assumption would have been one of us lied, so the next day town would be figuring out who to exile between Joseph and I instead of actually finding the real scum.

See, I am not seeing how this would help scum!me. It is very transparent that scum can have a Roleblocker, this was already talked about extensively. The idea that scum!me would assume that town immediately jumps to the conclusion that there was a lie is fairly ridiculous. At worst, you would lose your IC status and be in no worse a position than if you never had claimed in the first place.

- If the game is still going D4 because we haven't found scum and we haven't actually publicly proven our IC status beyond just people believing the claims, there's a case to be made that at that point you should absolutely have Joseph and I prove it just to make sure neither of us is lying. Using the roleblocker that day to frame us and get a late game misexile of what otherwise should have been an IC would be really good.

A couple of things about this.
1. If the game is still going D4, it seems very dangerous to do a test in a situation that close to XyLo.
2. This plan only works if scum can ensure that the Roleblocker lives until N3. If scum have that much control over the game then they can probably just pull of a flawless win.
3. As I said before, the assumption that a Drunk/Mayor being non-confirmed equals them being scum is ludicrous and not a position anyone would take.

[infangthief]

Thanks faust and MiX for your thoughts on the possible scumslip. I realise now there are more ways of reading what scola said than my initial reading.
Still I would like to hear from scola himself before I say more about it.
For now though, back to vote: MiX. Could be X-2.

[infangthief]

vote: fang. Bad case.

Which one? I've made a number of cases, two each on MiX and scola I think.

[MiX]

vote: fang. Bad case.

Which one? I've made a number of cases, two each on MiX and scola I think.

Cases so bad you go back to them? Why did you vote for me?

[infangthief]

I've only skim-read the recent Dylan-faust exchange, but I think before it started faust already pointed out that there's no downside in using Dylan's testing method today also, so long as Dylan and Joseph both approve of the eventual exile, which seems like a good idea anyway.

PPE 1

[infangthief]

vote: fang. Bad case.

Which one? I've made a number of cases, two each on MiX and scola I think.

Cases so bad you go back to them? Why did you vote for me?

Which time? Originally or most recently?

[infangthief]

Originally, because you were refusing to commit yourself to whether you would claim mayor or not, even though you said you saw no downside to the plan of all mayors claiming today. You just hoped no-one would actually ask you in particular.

Most recently, because I want to be voting for whoever I most want to see exiled today.

[MiX]

Originally, because you were refusing to commit yourself to whether you would claim mayor or not, even though you said you saw no downside to the plan of all mayors claiming today. You just hoped no-one would actually ask you in particular.

Most recently, because I want to be voting for whoever I most want to see exiled today.

The downside is not everyone will claim mayor. So why should I?

And I would like to know why you want me to be exiled? That's not really a full answer.

[infangthief]

Originally, because you were refusing to commit yourself to whether you would claim mayor or not, even though you said you saw no downside to the plan of all mayors claiming today. You just hoped no-one would actually ask you in particular.

Most recently, because I want to be voting for whoever I most want to see exiled today.

The downside is not everyone will claim mayor. So why should I?

And I would like to know why you want me to be exiled? That's not really a full answer.

Quite. Especially if you try to shut down the claims after just the one claim.

[infangthief]

But actually, vote: Didds

[WestCoastDidds]

Howdy hey, friends! I’m just checking in. Fang, is that vote a prod or does my inability to figure out what to do with two mayors actually make you think I’m scummy? The case is so compelling and fully developed that I’m not sure how to respond.

I’m spending the day with my sister and my folks in Atlanta, but I’m headed back to Texas tomorrow so I’ll have time to get caught up en route. AND I’m done teaching for the semester (just final exams and entering grades remain) so I should be much more available from tomorrow going forward.

xoxo

[faust]

Vote: Didds

[mathdude]

Vote "count" 1.2:
Votes for EFHW: MiX
Votes for fang: EFHW
votes for MiX: Joseph2302
votes for WestCoastDidds: faust, gkrieg13, infangthief

not voting: Dylan32, jotheonah, scolapasta, Swowl, WestCoastDidds
(with 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to exile)

Reminder: Day 1 ends at 3:00pm EST on Tuesday, December 7th (that's just over 52 hours away)

[Dylan32]

Vote "count" 1.2:
Votes for EFHW: MiX
Votes for fang: EFHW
votes for MiX: Joseph2302
votes for WestCoastDidds: faust, gkrieg13, infangthief

not voting: Dylan32, jotheonah, scolapasta, Swowl, WestCoastDidds
(with 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to exile)

Reminder: Day 1 ends at 3:00pm EST on Tuesday, December 7th (that's just over 52 hours away)

Following through on what I said last night, Vote: Didds. That's either X-1 or X-3.

[MiX]

Vote "count" 1.2:
Votes for EFHW: MiX
Votes for fang: EFHW
votes for MiX: Joseph2302
votes for WestCoastDidds: faust, gkrieg13, infangthief

not voting: Dylan32, jotheonah, scolapasta, Swowl, WestCoastDidds
(with 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to exile)

Reminder: Day 1 ends at 3:00pm EST on Tuesday, December 7th (that's just over 52 hours away)

Following through on what I said last night, Vote: Didds. That's either X-1 or X-3.

If Joseph votes now that will be pretty bad for us. Can you wait for Didds to have 2 votes?

[Dylan32]

Vote "count" 1.2:
Votes for EFHW: MiX
Votes for fang: EFHW
votes for MiX: Joseph2302
votes for WestCoastDidds: faust, gkrieg13, infangthief

not voting: Dylan32, jotheonah, scolapasta, Swowl, WestCoastDidds
(with 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to exile)

Reminder: Day 1 ends at 3:00pm EST on Tuesday, December 7th (that's just over 52 hours away)

Following through on what I said last night, Vote: Didds. That's either X-1 or X-3.

If Joseph votes now that will be pretty bad for us. Can you wait for Didds to have 2 votes?

Um... I think you are mistaken unless I'm not seeing something. The only way it's bad (meaning the exile goes through) for Joseph to vote now would be if he lied and is scum with a vote or if we are both mayors rather than one of us being a drunk, the latter of which I think is a scenario we can practically ignore.

[MiX]

Those are two relevant scenarios. Importantly, if an exile goes through, then scum knows your roles but we do not.

Also, if one of you is mayor and the other is drunk, voting now isn't good either. So I see no benefit of that vote.

[EFHW]

Just reread EFHW. I see no reason to think she's town. She focused on both mayor claims, and is now voting fang for acting scummy. Feels like the easiest thing in the world.

Vote: EFHW, let's move on with the day.

Why EFHW?

Why not? I felt like EFHW hadn't done anything.

I'm subtle is all. What have you done?

[EFHW]

vote: fang. Bad case.

Which one? I've made a number of cases, two each on MiX and scola I think.

The scumslip argument.

[MiX]

I'm subtle is all. What have you done?

I've tried to kickstart the game, I gave my opinion on the mayor claims and the mayor plan, I reread a few people and gave my reads there, I tried to find good votes, and currently I'm trying to uphold Dylan's plan (which funnily enough involved arguing with Dylan's current vote).

[EFHW]

Vote "count" 1.2:
Votes for EFHW: MiX
Votes for fang: EFHW
votes for MiX: Joseph2302
votes for WestCoastDidds: faust, gkrieg13, infangthief

not voting: Dylan32, jotheonah, scolapasta, Swowl, WestCoastDidds
(with 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to exile)

Reminder: Day 1 ends at 3:00pm EST on Tuesday, December 7th (that's just over 52 hours away)

Following through on what I said last night, Vote: Didds. That's either X-1 or X-3.

If Joseph votes now that will be pretty bad for us. Can you wait for Didds to have 2 votes?

Um... I think you are mistaken unless I'm not seeing something. The only way it's bad (meaning the exile goes through) for Joseph to vote now would be if he lied and is scum with a vote or if we are both mayors rather than one of us being a drunk, the latter of which I think is a scenario we can practically ignore.

This sounds like you are assuming Joseph is the drunk and you are the mayor.

[EFHW]

I'm subtle is all. What have you done?

I've tried to kickstart the game, I gave my opinion on the mayor claims and the mayor plan, I reread a few people and gave my reads there, I tried to find good votes, and currently I'm trying to uphold Dylan's plan (which funnily enough involved arguing with Dylan's current vote).

similar, except I haven't reread anyone and I'm not supporting the plan because first I was against it and now for some reason I find it annoying. I know it isn't actually an attempt to break the game, but it has that feeling to me.

[MiX]

I'm subtle is all. What have you done?

I've tried to kickstart the game, I gave my opinion on the mayor claims and the mayor plan, I reread a few people and gave my reads there, I tried to find good votes, and currently I'm trying to uphold Dylan's plan (which funnily enough involved arguing with Dylan's current vote).

similar, except I haven't reread anyone and I'm not supporting the plan because first I was against it and now for some reason I find it annoying. I know it isn't actually an attempt to break the game, but it has that feeling to me.

It doesn't help me stop voting you when you say "same, except some things", which basically means you've done less than me, and I haven't actually done much this game.

I guess that's not exactly your fault. Just wanna put my reaction to that post out there.

[EFHW]

I wasn't trying to change your vote.

The thing about all the planning is that it is a great place for scum to hide while seeming active.  Trying to look for ICs means we aren't scumhunting. We can get a lot of the same info from a vca in which Joseph or Dylan is on wagon. Simple, what is all this discussion about?

I don't think fakeclaiming mayor would be a smart scum move, but I don't feel either claim is particularly compelling, and there are weak spots in both, as I have pointed out. I don't want to hand them IC status quite yet.

[EFHW]

Fang's scumslip argument was too contrived,  so it looked to me like scum trying to appear to be scumhunting.

[EFHW]

@Dylan, Can you point to your earlier comments on Didds? I looked but can't find them.

[jotheonah]

Vote: EFHW

[Dylan32]

@Dylan, Can you point to your earlier comments on Didds? I looked but can't find them.

I didn’t say anything about Didds. I said if anyone hit X-3 today I would vote to start the process of proving Joseph and myself IC since that may not be a real option in the future.

[EFHW]

@Dylan, Can you point to your earlier comments on Didds? I looked but can't find them.

I didn’t say anything about Didds. I said if anyone hit X-3 today I would vote to start the process of proving Joseph and myself IC since that may not be a real option in the future.

Oh, alright.

[scolapasta]

Fang's scumslip argument was too contrived,  so it looked to me like scum trying to appear to be scumhunting.

Finally caught up after a busy weekend.

Yeah, this argument makes sense to me. Combine that with my previous suspicions, I'm ok with a:

Vote: fang

[Joseph2302]

Joseph isn't going to do anything right now. Been a long weekend, will contribute more later tomorrow

[scolapasta]

We should be a little wary, deadline is in less than 48 hours and unless we have two mayors, the Joseph and Dylan plan will not lead to an exile. AND I 'm not convinced we want to exile WCD* anyway (that would not be my choice for the experiment), which means we effectively start the whole process over again...

Also, if we do get WCD to X-1 with both their votes, should we at all be worried scum might try for a quick hammer? (I doubt it, because I think it would put a huge target on whoever does it, if WCD is, in fact, town)

[EFHW]

Day 1 quickhammer seems unlikely. And we won't be sure about when it's X-1.

I'll see if there is more of a case to make on fang tomorrow.

[Dylan32]

Day 1 quickhammer seems unlikely. And we won't be sure about when it's X-1.

I'll see if there is more of a case to make on fang tomorrow.

Agree it’s probably not something that is likely to happen (but I will say if it does I’m not giving the person the benefit of the doubt that scum wouldn’t do it lol).

As long as Joseph is telling the truth, the two of us voting without triggering an exile would—in my mind—be overwhelmingly likely to be X-1, and the only other option would be that we are both drunks and nearly a fifth of the town is incapable of voting.

Had we not ended up all mayor PMs claim, I would agree it would be a lot risker, but at this point I feel pretty safe assuming we all have. If a different wagon runs up to X-3 I’d be willing to move to it instead of Didds.

[gkrieg13]

Haven’t been reading too carefully, but see the X-1 and am leaving me vote.

[faust]

Hey MiX, can we get your opinion on the Didds wagon?

Your main argument for voting EFHW seems to be "she hasn't done anything"; the same is certainly true of Didds.

[Dylan32]

Vote "count" 1.2:
Votes for EFHW: MiX
Votes for fang: EFHW
votes for MiX: Joseph2302
votes for WestCoastDidds: faust, gkrieg13, infangthief

not voting: Dylan32, jotheonah, scolapasta, Swowl, WestCoastDidds
(with 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to exile)

Reminder: Day 1 ends at 3:00pm EST on Tuesday, December 7th (that's just over 52 hours away)

Following through on what I said last night, Vote: Didds. That's either X-1 or X-3.

If Joseph votes now that will be pretty bad for us. Can you wait for Didds to have 2 votes?

Um... I think you are mistaken unless I'm not seeing something. The only way it's bad (meaning the exile goes through) for Joseph to vote now would be if he lied and is scum with a vote or if we are both mayors rather than one of us being a drunk, the latter of which I think is a scenario we can practically ignore.

This sounds like you are assuming Joseph is the drunk and you are the mayor.

Sorry, been reading on mobile today and just saw this.

How? No matter which role I am and which one Joseph is, the result of us voting together should be 2 votes, unless A) we are both mayors which like I said we might as well not worry about B) we are both drunks which I think we can ignore because of how much that would gimp town in my mind. Nothing in anything I said there assumes, implies, or relies on either of us having a specific role; it just lays out why we can relatively safely assume we are one of each and us voting together at X-3 D1 is safe unless he is scum. Further, I know (and didn’t say) that us voting safely here by itself proves us IC because if I’m drunk and he’s scum, it wouldn’t trigger an exile. Obviously someone would have to hammer to prove there were exactly 2 votes between us and that would prove the claims (most likely; a vote or two more would be needed if it’s scum + drunk or double drunk)

[faust]

vote: fang. Bad case.

I've been meaning to post

Vote: EFHW. Bad case.

Except I don't really want to vote for EFHW.

[infangthief]

Fang's scumslip argument was too contrived,  so it looked to me like scum trying to appear to be scumhunting.

True, I got a bit excited I might have found something. Managed to hold back enough to see what other people thought, instead of the mindless headlong tunnel I found myself in with chairs in my first game. But still, couldn't resist the possible glory of catching two scum on day 1.

[infangthief]

I don't think fakeclaiming mayor would be a smart scum move, but I don't feel either claim is particularly compelling, and there are weak spots in both, as I have pointed out. I don't want to hand them IC status quite yet.

You pointed out weak spots in Joseph's claim?

[infangthief]

I'm happy with handing them IC status.

And now I can't help chucking at the picture:
Dylan and Joseph take their seats at the front of the city council. "Right, so here we are, time for a new era. One of us is your Mayor, and one of us is drunk. We're not sure which. But together we will lead you into a new and brighter era for our city. Trust us."

[MiX]

Hey MiX, can we get your opinion on the Didds wagon?

Your main argument for voting EFHW seems to be "she hasn't done anything"; the same is certainly true of Didds.

Sure, but Didds doesn't do much D1, right? EFHW does more.

Those are two relevant scenarios. Importantly, if an exile goes through, then scum knows your roles but we do not.

Also, if one of you is mayor and the other is drunk, voting now isn't good either. So I see no benefit of that vote.

Did you see this Dylan?

[faust]

Hey MiX, can we get your opinion on the Didds wagon?

Your main argument for voting EFHW seems to be "she hasn't done anything"; the same is certainly true of Didds.

Sure, but Didds doesn't do much D1, right? EFHW does more.

This wasn't an answer to my question.

[faust]

I'm happy with handing them IC status.

And now I can't help chucking at the picture:
Dylan and Joseph take their seats at the front of the city council. "Right, so here we are, time for a new era. One of us is your Mayor, and one of us is drunk. We're not sure which. But together we will lead you into a new and brighter era for our city. Trust us."

Also, they are both mice.

[MiX]

Hey MiX, can we get your opinion on the Didds wagon?

Your main argument for voting EFHW seems to be "she hasn't done anything"; the same is certainly true of Didds.

Sure, but Didds doesn't do much D1, right? EFHW does more.

This wasn't an answer to my question.

I don't like it. It's probably scum-driven. I'm not exactly townreading Didds though.

[faust]

Hey MiX, can we get your opinion on the Didds wagon?

Your main argument for voting EFHW seems to be "she hasn't done anything"; the same is certainly true of Didds.

Sure, but Didds doesn't do much D1, right? EFHW does more.

This wasn't an answer to my question.

I don't like it. It's probably scum-driven. I'm not exactly townreading Didds though.

And you'd rather vote for a lurker than for someone on a "probably scum-driven" wagon?

[MiX]

And you'd rather vote for a lurker than for someone on a "probably scum-driven" wagon?

Didds is much more of a lurker than EFHW...

I was thinking of voting fang, but I don't know. I don't think we can solve who's scum in that wagon yet.

[faust]

And you'd rather vote for a lurker than for someone on a "probably scum-driven" wagon?

Didds is much more of a lurker than EFHW...

And I have never said otherwise. However, unlike EFHW, she is also scum.

[MiX]

And you'd rather vote for a lurker than for someone on a "probably scum-driven" wagon?

Didds is much more of a lurker than EFHW...

And I have never said otherwise. However, unlike EFHW, she is also scum.

Hmm, okay. Consider me convinced, but I can't vote for Didds as that might be hammer.

[EFHW]

I'm happy with handing them IC status.

And now I can't help chucking at the picture:
Dylan and Joseph take their seats at the front of the city council. "Right, so here we are, time for a new era. One of us is your Mayor, and one of us is drunk. We're not sure which. But together we will lead you into a new and brighter era for our city. Trust us."

Also, they are both mice.

Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy

[WestCoastDidds]

Good morning!!!

I can apologize for lurking. But I’m on vacation so it’s a hollow apology. I’m not really sorry. But that is also because, for me, most of this day has been about the wisdom of claiming and how to figure out who is the mayor and who is the drunk. We all know that those conversations are lost on me. Here’s how I see it…

We had not reached a consensus on claiming when it actually happened, so that was a pointless conversation.

And I have no idea why having both Dylan and Joseph vote/exile the same person (me!) would help us learn anything except that they aren’t both drunk. I don’t understand why that helps us, exactly, but I figure there are folks who know.

I don’t think gkrieg or fang have any sort of real reason they are voting for me, but I assume it’s lack of contribution. Again, vacation, but whatever. So, ugh, okay. faust probably has a reason but I don’t know what it is. Dylan is following through on his testing theory.

I have made some progress in not taking the games personally. Someone needs to get exiled, and it sure seems like no one really cares who it is, as long as it’s not Dylan or Joseph. I don’t feel like there is some sort of case for me to respond to, so defense is irrelevant.

As far as offense… meh. I don’t think gkrieg has been helpful, but that could well be OMGUS. My Swowl detector is pretty well tuned, but it’s too early for a reading. MiX usually reads me better than this, same with faust. I’m always, always suspicious of EFHW.  fang plays do rarely that it’s hard to know… it feels like he’s been playing, but also voting for me for no articulated reason. I believe Dylan more than Joseph, as a result of timing of their claims.  Who am I forgetting? Joth? Oh, Joth! He doesn’t seem scummy to me either. Pasta? I don’t have a ton of impression, there. So, null?

So, the scummiest of that list are EFHW, fang, gkrieg, MiX and faust. Half the game… so, not really helpful. If getting to play means proving your value to the group, I definitely have not earned it. There just hasn’t been enough case making and responding outside of the claims/test the mayors lines on inquiry for me to analyze, and even if there had been, my attention is elsewhere. Le sigh. And so it goes. I’m feeling more resigned than feisty.  It the beginning of the game so a missexile won’t hurt us much, and it feels like the missexile is pretty much unavoidable since collectively we have a terrible record at finding scum D1.

[jotheonah]

I guess I should point out that I am gut reading Didds as town and don’t feel that way about EFHW, which I think is the opposite of what Faust is articulating about himself.

[EFHW]

Giving Didds a daypass for that post. It goes right to the heart of the matter re this mayor situation.

[faust]

It goes right to the heart of the matter re this mayor situation.

What do you mean by this?

[Joseph2302]

And you'd rather vote for a lurker than for someone on a "probably scum-driven" wagon?

Didds is much more of a lurker than EFHW...

And I have never said otherwise. However, unlike EFHW, she is also scum.

Hmm, okay. Consider me convinced, but I can't vote for Didds as that might be hammer.

Does that mean people want me to vote now? As it's L-1/L-3 depending on Dylan

[Joseph2302]

I can understand the argument for Didds being scum. Though almost certainly, my vote shouldn't matter, unless neither Dylan nor me are drunk?

[MiX]

And you'd rather vote for a lurker than for someone on a "probably scum-driven" wagon?

Didds is much more of a lurker than EFHW...

And I have never said otherwise. However, unlike EFHW, she is also scum.

Hmm, okay. Consider me convinced, but I can't vote for Didds as that might be hammer.

Does that mean people want me to vote now? As it's L-1/L-3 depending on Dylan

No.

[MiX]

I can understand the argument for Didds being scum. Though almost certainly, my vote shouldn't matter, unless neither Dylan nor me are drunk?

Your vote matters if one of you us scum.

[Joseph2302]

I can understand the argument for Didds being scum. Though almost certainly, my vote shouldn't matter, unless neither Dylan nor me are drunk?

Your vote matters if one of you us scum.

True. I guess it'd be good information for me (as I'm not scum), but not for anyone else

[EFHW]

It goes right to the heart of the matter re this mayor situation.

What do you mean by this?

... We had not reached a consensus on claiming when it actually happened, so that was a pointless conversation.

And I have no idea why having both Dylan and Joseph vote/exile the same person (me!) would help us learn anything except that they aren’t both drunk. ...

[EFHW]

Vote "count" 1.2:
Votes for EFHW: MiX
Votes for fang: EFHW
votes for MiX: Joseph2302
votes for WestCoastDidds: faust, gkrieg13, infangthief

not voting: Dylan32, jotheonah, scolapasta, Swowl, WestCoastDidds
(with 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to exile)

Reminder: Day 1 ends at 3:00pm EST on Tuesday, December 7th (that's just over 52 hours away)

Following through on what I said last night, Vote: Didds. That's either X-1 or X-3.

If Joseph votes now that will be pretty bad for us. Can you wait for Didds to have 2 votes?

Um... I think you are mistaken unless I'm not seeing something. The only way it's bad (meaning the exile goes through) for Joseph to vote now would be if he lied and is scum with a vote or if we are both mayors rather than one of us being a drunk, the latter of which I think is a scenario we can practically ignore.

This sounds like you are assuming Joseph is the drunk and you are the mayor.

Sorry, been reading on mobile today and just saw this.

How? ...

First you say the only way a Joseph vote is bad is if he is lying/scum. That means you think he is the drunk. You qualify that by saying you could both be mayors, but you think that is very unlikely. You don't mention the scenario in which you are drunk and he is mayor. I realize that you are talking about bad outcomes, and it would be ok for Joseph to vote in that case (you drunk, him mayor). But all your responses to everything have been very thorough. I am wondering if you forgot about that possibility.

[faust]

And you'd rather vote for a lurker than for someone on a "probably scum-driven" wagon?

Didds is much more of a lurker than EFHW...

And I have never said otherwise. However, unlike EFHW, she is also scum.

Hmm, okay. Consider me convinced, but I can't vote for Didds as that might be hammer.

Does that mean people want me to vote now? As it's L-1/L-3 depending on Dylan

No.

Yes.

[faust]

It goes right to the heart of the matter re this mayor situation.

What do you mean by this?

... We had not reached a consensus on claiming when it actually happened, so that was a pointless conversation.

And I have no idea why having both Dylan and Joseph vote/exile the same person (me!) would help us learn anything except that they aren’t both drunk. ...

I mean, I know that much, but how does what Didds said there "go to the heart of the matter"?

[Dylan32]

Hey MiX, can we get your opinion on the Didds wagon?

Your main argument for voting EFHW seems to be "she hasn't done anything"; the same is certainly true of Didds.

Sure, but Didds doesn't do much D1, right? EFHW does more.

Those are two relevant scenarios. Importantly, if an exile goes through, then scum knows your roles but we do not.

Also, if one of you is mayor and the other is drunk, voting now isn't good either. So I see no benefit of that vote.

Did you see this Dylan?

You mean if Joseph and I vote at X-3 and an exile goes through? Assuming that's what you meant, from my perspective that would mean I'm mayor and Joseph is scum; neutral view it's those two roles between the two of us. I've already said in other posts why us being one of each is exactly why we vote at X-3. Why don't you just lay out your ideal version of the plan, because honestly I'm just not seeing how we are missing each other on this...

[Dylan32]

I'm happy with handing them IC status.

And now I can't help chucking at the picture:
Dylan and Joseph take their seats at the front of the city council. "Right, so here we are, time for a new era. One of us is your Mayor, and one of us is drunk. We're not sure which. But together we will lead you into a new and brighter era for our city. Trust us."

Also, they are both mice.

I'd like to think it's more like one of us has a hidden drinking problem that nobody knows about and the other just picks up the slack without questioning it.

[scolapasta]

I think we just need to decide testing or not and then move on (and really, by we it's in Joseph's hands right now).

[Joseph2302]

I think we just need to decide testing or not and then move on (and really, by we it's in Joseph's hands right now).

I'm for testing, but also would like some consensus from the group on it if possible

[scolapasta]

As far as exiling WCD, meh. I mean if we want a lurker, I guess. But I've never been a fan of exiling lurkers D1, and WCD at least says she was on vacation and has a reasonable excuse for it. I'm more curious about gkrieg, joth, and swowl. Especially the last two, as they are usually more prolific.

Where you guys at?

[scolapasta]

I think we just need to decide testing or not and then move on (and really, by we it's in Joseph's hands right now).

I'm for testing, but also would like some consensus from the group on it if possible

I mean I think some testing is possible for sure. If you vote, and no exile it means you're not both mayors. Though I don't think that's especially surprising. Or useful, since it does still leave the possibilities of both drunk, one mayor/drunk and 1 (or both, I guess) of you scum.

[Dylan32]

I can understand the argument for Didds being scum. Though almost certainly, my vote shouldn't matter, unless neither Dylan nor me are drunk?

Your vote matters if one of you us scum.

True. I guess it'd be good information for me (as I'm not scum), but not for anyone else

Vote "count" 1.2:
Votes for EFHW: MiX
Votes for fang: EFHW
votes for MiX: Joseph2302
votes for WestCoastDidds: faust, gkrieg13, infangthief

not voting: Dylan32, jotheonah, scolapasta, Swowl, WestCoastDidds
(with 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to exile)

Reminder: Day 1 ends at 3:00pm EST on Tuesday, December 7th (that's just over 52 hours away)

Following through on what I said last night, Vote: Didds. That's either X-1 or X-3.

If Joseph votes now that will be pretty bad for us. Can you wait for Didds to have 2 votes?

Um... I think you are mistaken unless I'm not seeing something. The only way it's bad (meaning the exile goes through) for Joseph to vote now would be if he lied and is scum with a vote or if we are both mayors rather than one of us being a drunk, the latter of which I think is a scenario we can practically ignore.

This sounds like you are assuming Joseph is the drunk and you are the mayor.

Sorry, been reading on mobile today and just saw this.

How? ...

First you say the only way a Joseph vote is bad is if he is lying/scum. That means you think he is the drunk. You qualify that by saying you could both be mayors, but you think that is very unlikely. You don't mention the scenario in which you are drunk and he is mayor. I realize that you are talking about bad outcomes, and it would be ok for Joseph to vote in that case (you drunk, him mayor). But all your responses to everything have been very thorough. I am wondering if you forgot about that possibility.

Apparently what I'm seeing as the plan isn't as clear as I thought it was, so let me lay out the ELI5 version so we don't waste more time going through this rather than A) doing the thing and B) finding scum.

Situation: 6 needed to exile; two claimed mayors/drunks don't know which is which. As I've said, it's is probably safe to assume we have one of each, but the iterations of the test can confirm exactly which it is. I won't use names, because it really does not matter which of the two of us has which role, and my test intentionally leaves that ambiguous to hide that info from scum N1.

In another post, I explaned why I feel safe assuming that if Joseph is telling the truth, then we likely have one mayor and one drunk instead of two of each, with two mayors being by far the least likely setup. If you disagree with that assessment, say so, because that's a valid disagreement we could talk through and adjust for. Going forward in this post, I am assuming there are not two mayors, but if there are, Joseph and I voting at X-4 would trigger an exile.

Test Phase One: Vote a wagon to X-3. Player A and B (the two claimers) vote. It doesn't matter if the wagon is X, Y, Z, Drunk, Mayor, or X, Y, Z, Mayor, Drunk, it will be X-1. This is what meant when I said the only way a Joseph vote is bad is if he is lying scum (assuming we aren't both mayors).

If Joseph is town: If I'm drunk, the wagon is still at X-3, so mayor!Joseph makes it X-1 and drunk!Joseph keeps it at X-3. If I'm the mayor it's X-1, and as per my assumption above, drunk!Joseph votes and, and it's still X-1. No exile goes through. If Joseph is scum (and consequently has a regular vote): if I'm drunk, we are now at X-2, and if I'm mayor the exile happens.

So after the first test phase, the only way an exile can happen (aka the only way it would be bad for Joseph to vote for Didds if we don't intend for them to be the exile), is if Joseph is scum, so then town knows FOR SURE that one of us is scum and the other is mayor (and from my perspective I would be confirmed mayor since I know my alignment). Otherwise, we know that possible combinations are mayor/drunk or drunk/scum (I suppose from neutral perspective scum/scum is mathematically on the table still, but that can be ruled out using the individual test that had originally been brought up on one of us). Assuming no exile happened, proceed to phase two.

Phase Two: Random other player votes with what *should* be the hammer. If exile happens, there were exactly two votes between Joseph and I, which means we had one mayor and one drunk as expected and we are IC (unless you genuinely think Joseph and I BOTH fakeclaimed, in which case, test one of us individually to make it mathematically 100%). If no exile, go to phase 3.

Phase Three: One more person votes. If the exile happens, one of us (Joseph) lied and the other (me) is drunk. If no exile, we are both drunks, and the wagon is for sure at X-1.

If you don't understand, doubt, or disagree with anything, please be specific with your questions in relation to this, because I've been sick this weekend and it's totally possible I'm just not thinking or typing as clearly as I think I am lol.

ppe 4

[WestCoastDidds]

It seems like having both Dylan and Joseph vote for the same person is entirely pointless.

[infangthief]

I agree with EFHW and scola I think. This trying to get people to vote at the right time in the right order is killing scum-hunting.

Dylan being on Didds at the moment is preventing anyone else (except Joseph) from voting there. So it is hard to work out how much consensus there is for a Didds exile. Clearly me, faust and gkrieg are up for it, and MiX says he is. So if Dylan and Joseph both want a Didds exile then that's enough. But if our ICs are feeling bullied into it just for the sake of a plan, then something has gone wrong.

How about if Dylan and Joseph hold off voting, or vote in non-bold only or something (better check with the mod that non-bold votes won't count!!), for now. That'll let people vote freely without fearing that they're messing up a plan.

I think testing Dylan/Joseph should be way below scum hunting on our priority list. They are ICs.

PPE 2

[Dylan32]

Vote "count" 1.2:
Votes for EFHW: MiX
Votes for fang: EFHW
votes for MiX: Joseph2302
votes for WestCoastDidds: faust, gkrieg13, infangthief

not voting: Dylan32, jotheonah, scolapasta, Swowl, WestCoastDidds
(with 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to exile)

Reminder: Day 1 ends at 3:00pm EST on Tuesday, December 7th (that's just over 52 hours away)

Following through on what I said last night, Vote: Didds. That's either X-1 or X-3.

If Joseph votes now that will be pretty bad for us. Can you wait for Didds to have 2 votes?

Um... I think you are mistaken unless I'm not seeing something. The only way it's bad (meaning the exile goes through) for Joseph to vote now would be if he lied and is scum with a vote or if we are both mayors rather than one of us being a drunk, the latter of which I think is a scenario we can practically ignore.

This sounds like you are assuming Joseph is the drunk and you are the mayor.

Sorry, been reading on mobile today and just saw this.

How? ...

First you say the only way a Joseph vote is bad is if he is lying/scum. That means you think he is the drunk. You qualify that by saying you could both be mayors, but you think that is very unlikely. You don't mention the scenario in which you are drunk and he is mayor. I realize that you are talking about bad outcomes, and it would be ok for Joseph to vote in that case (you drunk, him mayor). But all your responses to everything have been very thorough. I am wondering if you forgot about that possibility.

So now that I've laid it all out, the bolded does not logically follow at all. Of all the possible role combos, the only ones in which an exile goes through when Joseph votes is mayor!me + scum!Joseph and mayor!me + mayor!Joseph. That does not mean other combos are not possible, only that those other combos do not result in an exile and are thus safe. I did not forget about the drunk!me, mayor!him scenario like you suggested, as it falls into the category of "safe for Joseph to vote," and I specifically meant to only list the ones in which it was not safe, so I did not list it.

ppe 2

[Dylan32]

It seems like having both Dylan and Joseph vote for the same person is entirely pointless.

Did you read my post right above yours?

[Dylan32]

Unvote

I agree Didds probably is the best exile, and so we should focus on figuring out where we are actually going to go.

If I wasn't one of the people with vote shenanigans going on, I would be voting for fang.

[MiX]

"I am assuming there are not two mayors"

"then town knows FOR SURE that one of us is scum and the other is mayor"

These 2 statements contradict each other. The 2 mayors should vote on a wagon with 2 votes. Then we immediately rule out the 2 mayor possibility.

[Dylan32]

"I am assuming there are not two mayors"

"then town knows FOR SURE that one of us is scum and the other is mayor"

These 2 statements contradict each other. The 2 mayors should vote on a wagon with 2 votes. Then we immediately rule out the 2 mayor possibility.

Personally I give it exactly a 0% chance there are two mayors. That is nonsense. If you insist on starting the test from there to rule it out though, I'm ok with doing that, it just seems unnecessary.

[Dylan32]

"I am assuming there are not two mayors"

"then town knows FOR SURE that one of us is scum and the other is mayor"

These 2 statements contradict each other. The 2 mayors should vote on a wagon with 2 votes. Then we immediately rule out the 2 mayor possibility.

Personally I give it exactly a 0% chance there are two mayors. That is nonsense. If you insist on starting the test from there to rule it out though, I'm ok with doing that, it just seems unnecessary.

Phrased another way, I think two mayors is equally likely as everyone in the town is either mayor or drunk and only two of us were willing to claim and for some reason everyone else was like yeah those two claims are nearly IC lol

[Dylan32]

So when I said "FOR SURE," that is the level of confidence I'm at with that statement.

[infangthief]

Hi Dylan,
faust and I had a conversation early in the day from which the conclusion was that 2 drunks was very unlikely, from a game balance perspective. I think this conclusion holds whether the scum team is either 2 or 3.
Haven't gone through the same detail for how likely 2 mayors is, but my gut feel is that it would be unbalanced with a 2-player scum team, but might be fine with a 3-player scum team.

So I wouldn't rule out the 2-mayor scenario, unless we can somehow rule out a 3-scum scenario.

PPE 7!!!

[infangthief]

So, the scummiest of that list are EFHW... <snip>

Why do you think EFHW is scummy this game?

[Dylan32]

Hi Dylan,
faust and I had a conversation early in the day from which the conclusion was that 2 drunks was very unlikely, from a game balance perspective. I think this conclusion holds whether the scum team is either 2 or 3.
Haven't gone through the same detail for how likely 2 mayors is, but my gut feel is that it would be unbalanced with a 2-player scum team, but might be fine with a 3-player scum team.

So I wouldn't rule out the 2-mayor scenario, unless we can somehow rule out a 3-scum scenario.

PPE 7!!!

I agree with the 2 drunks is very unlikely in part based on that convo! My objection to two mayors isn't balance based (although there is that factor), it's flavor based. The idea of having two mayors is as absurd as, well, a town of mice with a drunk that thinks they run the town haha.

But really, looking at the setup, it just seems like the mayor and drunk roles were designed specifically to have one of each in the game and introduce these mechanics and converations to the game. It's neat, and maybe us claiming D1 is making it play out very differently than the mod thought it would, but I'm assuming that between the two of us either Joseph and I have the two votes from one of each role or he's scum, which I also think is unlikely based on early conversations about scum fakeclaiming a publicly verifiable role D1. So really, the test basically just needs to be the two of us vote at X-3 to make it X-1 and someone hammers. There's probably a 90+ percent chance that the exile happens there and that's the end of it. If it's important to know which is which later we can test individually, but even if scum tries to mess with it via roleblocking, all that happens is we still don't know if mayor or drunk as opposed to not knowing mayor/drunk or fakeclaiming scum.

ppe 1

[scolapasta]

...

Phase Two: Random other player votes with what *should* be the hammer. If exile happens, there were exactly two votes between Joseph and I, which means we had one mayor and one drunk as expected and we are IC (unless you genuinely think Joseph and I BOTH fakeclaimed, in which case, test one of us individually to make it mathematically 100%). If no exile, go to phase 3.

Phase Three: One more person votes. If the exile happens, one of us (Joseph) lied and the other (me) is drunk. If no exile, we are both drunks, and the wagon is for sure at X-1.

If you don't understand, doubt, or disagree with anything, please be specific with your questions in relation to this, because I've been sick this weekend and it's totally possible I'm just not thinking or typing as clearly as I think I am lol.

ppe 4

Plenty of posts have happened after this one, but my biggest issue is here Phase 2 (and 3). I don't know if we're really set to exile WCD (the current testee) and all this testing talk time is really hurting our focus.

So I'm fine with Phase 1, but it gets us very little info and then we need to regroup and determine who we may actually want to exile. Add in the fact of different time zones, not knowing when exactly mod will post new vote counts, this feels guaranteed to leave us scrambling at the last minute. Which is in the middle of the day for those of us in the US and may be hard to have a lot of time to read / post / vote.

So honestly, I think at this point we need to move past the testing and just try to play like a normal end of D1.

I'm happy with my current vote.

[Dylan32]

...

Phase Two: Random other player votes with what *should* be the hammer. If exile happens, there were exactly two votes between Joseph and I, which means we had one mayor and one drunk as expected and we are IC (unless you genuinely think Joseph and I BOTH fakeclaimed, in which case, test one of us individually to make it mathematically 100%). If no exile, go to phase 3.

Phase Three: One more person votes. If the exile happens, one of us (Joseph) lied and the other (me) is drunk. If no exile, we are both drunks, and the wagon is for sure at X-1.

If you don't understand, doubt, or disagree with anything, please be specific with your questions in relation to this, because I've been sick this weekend and it's totally possible I'm just not thinking or typing as clearly as I think I am lol.

ppe 4

Plenty of posts have happened after this one, but my biggest issue is here Phase 2 (and 3). I don't know if we're really set to exile WCD (the current testee) and all this testing talk time is really hurting our focus.

So I'm fine with Phase 1, but it gets us very little info and then we need to regroup and determine who we may actually want to exile. Add in the fact of different time zones, not knowing when exactly mod will post new vote counts, this feels guaranteed to leave us scrambling at the last minute. Which is in the middle of the day for those of us in the US and may be hard to have a lot of time to read / post / vote.

So honestly, I think at this point we need to move past the testing and just try to play like a normal end of D1.

I'm happy with my current vote.

Yeah, it would be better to figure out where we are actually going to exile and then test it. The one thing I hadn't thought about is just how rarely the mod has posted voting updates. We would really need those to happen pretty quickly between each step to not bottleneck us. That said, reiterating what I've said since then, what is likely going to happen is phase 1 nothing happens, one more person votes and that's the hammer.

[MiX]

"I am assuming there are not two mayors"

"then town knows FOR SURE that one of us is scum and the other is mayor"

These 2 statements contradict each other. The 2 mayors should vote on a wagon with 2 votes. Then we immediately rule out the 2 mayor possibility.

Personally I give it exactly a 0% chance there are two mayors. That is nonsense. If you insist on starting the test from there to rule it out though, I'm ok with doing that, it just seems unnecessary.

Phrased another way, I think two mayors is equally likely as everyone in the town is either mayor or drunk and only two of us were willing to claim and for some reason everyone else was like yeah those two claims are nearly IC lol

Then do the test, there is literally zero downside if you are not both mayors.

[MiX]

Math will quote the hammer, by the way, so we don't need him to be active as long as we apply good conditional logic and have 1 person we want to exile.

[WestCoastDidds]

It seems like having both Dylan and Joseph vote for the same person is entirely pointless.

Did you read my post right above yours?

Yes, but I’m on the subway and can’t get out a piece of paper to figure out if it works.

The fact is, we are bagging as if you are both if now do having your both vote for me will not help us distinguish between who is drunk and who is a mayor. It would be way more informative for all the votes up to x-2 be non-claimants and then to have one of you vote to see if you’re the mayor. If they aren’t, we should assume they are drunk. We could then have one more person vote, and if the exile goes through then the drunk was actually lying scum who has a vote. Having you Joth vote for the same person is not nearly as useful.

[WestCoastDidds]

It seems like having both Dylan and Joseph vote for the same person is entirely pointless.

Did you read my post right above yours?

Yes, but I’m on the subway and can’t get out a piece of paper to figure out if it works.

The fact is, we are acting as if you are both IC now so having your both vote for me will not help us distinguish between who is drunk and who is a mayor. It would be way more informative for all the votes up to x-2 be non-claimants and then to have one of you vote to see if you’re the mayor. If they aren’t, we should assume they are drunk. We could then have one more person vote, and if the exile goes through then the drunk was actually lying scum who has a vote. Having you both vote for the same person is not nearly as useful.

Sheesh. Apologies. Corrected above

[WestCoastDidds]

So, the scummiest of that list are EFHW... <snip>

Why do you think EFHW is scummy this game?

Snipping a much longer list there is way out of context.

Her subsequent play hasn’t been as scummy, but when I wrote that this morning she hadn’t been engaging much.

However, I’m finding you super scummy for digging in with your vote on me with zero reason. Same with gkrieg. I’m also not fond of Mix rushing the conversation to get me exiled to test Dylan and/or Joseph without doing any actual scum hunting. I’m wary of faust acting like an oracle who has some kind of inside information and I’m disappointed that I won’t get to keep playing. At this point, I’m really just kind of over it. No one cares if I’m scum or not. There is no case. Just a desire to test the claim that Joseph made before we had even decided if it was a good idea, and gkrieg, you, and faust have forced Dylan’s hand and de facto decided that  I’m the easiest target. It’s not mean, but it sure isn’t awesome to feel like fodder. We are not even trying to scum hunt. The entire day has been about mayor/drunk. To me, it feels unfair.. why not just use a RNG?  At the very least it’s a waste of time.

[MiX]

EoD's in less than 24 hours, right? Hmm...

Request vote count

[Joseph2302]

EoD's in less than 24 hours, right? Hmm...

Request vote count

And also Request prods where appropriate

[Swowl]

Apologies for the weekend. I am kind of sort of caught up. I like efoo best for now. Back in a few hours.

Plan should happen because we need an exile anyways, and why not do it just to be 100% sure. Like decide on a wagon, then have them follow Dylans plan. No reason NOT to do it that way.


Swowl Count as of this post:
Votes for EFHW: MiX, Joth, Swowl (3)
Votes for fang: EFHW, Scolapasta (2)
votes for MiX: Joseph2302 (1)
votes for WestCoastDidds: faust, gkrieg13, infangthief (4)

not voting: Dylan32, WestCoastDidds,
(with 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to exile)

Vote: EFHW

[faust]

The fact is, we are bagging as if you are both if now do having your both vote for me will not help us distinguish between who is drunk and who is a mayor.

The point of all this is not to find out who is Drunk and who is Mayor (because arguably that is not information we want to make available to scum). The point is just to test whether someone is lying.

[faust]

However, I’m finding you super scummy for digging in with your vote on me with zero reason. Same with gkrieg. I’m also not fond of Mix rushing the conversation to get me exiled to test Dylan and/or Joseph without doing any actual scum hunting. I’m wary of faust acting like an oracle who has some kind of inside information and I’m disappointed that I won’t get to keep playing. At this point, I’m really just kind of over it. No one cares if I’m scum or not. There is no case. Just a desire to test the claim that Joseph made before we had even decided if it was a good idea, and gkrieg, you, and faust have forced Dylan’s hand and de facto decided that  I’m the easiest target. It’s not mean, but it sure isn’t awesome to feel like fodder. We are not even trying to scum hunt. The entire day has been about mayor/drunk. To me, it feels unfair.. why not just use a RNG?  At the very least it’s a waste of time.

I hear a lot of complaining about how we're not doing any scumhunting and not a lot of scumhunting.

I'm scumhunting, FWIW. I just don't broadcast my results.

[gkrieg13]

As far as offense… meh. I don’t think gkrieg has been helpful, but that could well be OMGUS.

I agree that I have not been that helpful. This is definitely Didds trying to remember me in this game, and being self-aware of what she is doing. Not sure that means anything beyond her just being on vacation.

[gkrieg13]

I'll go read EFHW and Didds.

[gkrieg13]

Howdy hey, friends! I’m just checking in. Fang, is that vote a prod or does my inability to figure out what to do with two mayors actually make you think I’m scummy? The case is so compelling and fully developed that I’m not sure how to respond.

I’m spending the day with my sister and my folks in Atlanta, but I’m headed back to Texas tomorrow so I’ll have time to get caught up en route. AND I’m done teaching for the semester (just final exams and entering grades remain) so I should be much more available from tomorrow going forward.

xoxo

This post could read as a deflection. slight scum points for it. Only slight scum points, because it could also just be vacation Didds and it was made in a jokey way.

[scolapasta]

Howdy hey, friends! I’m just checking in. Fang, is that vote a prod or does my inability to figure out what to do with two mayors actually make you think I’m scummy? The case is so compelling and fully developed that I’m not sure how to respond.

I’m spending the day with my sister and my folks in Atlanta, but I’m headed back to Texas tomorrow so I’ll have time to get caught up en route. AND I’m done teaching for the semester (just final exams and entering grades remain) so I should be much more available from tomorrow going forward.

xoxo

This post could read as a deflection. slight scum points for it. Only slight scum points, because it could also just be vacation Didds and it was made in a jokey way.

Yeah, I really wasn't sure how to read sarcasm from Didds before; I can't recall seeing it before.

[gkrieg13]

--big post that I quote a piece of like 4 posts ago--

Rereading this again, I could go either way. I don't remember Didds being a defeatist, but I also don't think it is something that would help her more if she were scum, so I don't think it points to her being scum.

[gkrieg13]

So, the scummiest of that list are EFHW... <snip>

Why do you think EFHW is scummy this game?

Snipping a much longer list there is way out of context.

Her subsequent play hasn’t been as scummy, but when I wrote that this morning she hadn’t been engaging much.

However, I’m finding you super scummy for digging in with your vote on me with zero reason. Same with gkrieg. I’m also not fond of Mix rushing the conversation to get me exiled to test Dylan and/or Joseph without doing any actual scum hunting. I’m wary of faust acting like an oracle who has some kind of inside information and I’m disappointed that I won’t get to keep playing. At this point, I’m really just kind of over it. No one cares if I’m scum or not. There is no case. Just a desire to test the claim that Joseph made before we had even decided if it was a good idea, and gkrieg, you, and faust have forced Dylan’s hand and de facto decided that  I’m the easiest target. It’s not mean, but it sure isn’t awesome to feel like fodder. We are not even trying to scum hunt. The entire day has been about mayor/drunk. To me, it feels unfair.. why not just use a RNG?  At the very least it’s a waste of time.

This is how I would expect Didds to act in this situation. My vote is still on her from RVS, and I mainly have left it there because I think wagons D1 are useful and I hadn't put in enough effort at that point to really try to find scum yet.

I think I put Didds on the slightest side of townie right now. Nothing she has done pops out as very scummy to me. I think she has had a fairly big shift in her play, but I don't think it comes from her being scum this game.

[gkrieg13]

The possible existence of an insane cop is a pretty big nerf for town.

Biggest thing from the first few posts of EFHW is that it seems like she has thought about the game setup, which I think leans the slightest bit scummy for her (I may be remembering this wrong though).

[mathdude]

EoD's in less than 24 hours, right? Hmm...

Request vote count

Coming momentarily.  Sorry, had a staff meeting after school and now lots of marking.  Finally taking a break from the marking.

EoD's in less than 24 hours, right? Hmm...

Request vote count

And also Request prods where appropriate

Do you have a list of who prods are appropriate for, or do you want me to do that work once I find time for it (likely later this evening)?

[gkrieg13]

I'm  suspicious of Dylan here. I think he saw all the town cred Joseph was getting and decided he wanted some, too. The flaw in my argument is that we could possibly identify him as not having either role in the course of our tests.

This is a very interesting reaction to the Dylan claim. I don't think that is why scum fake claim something like drunk/mayor. Based on how most of the scum QTs have gone in the past, scum don't usually do THAT much setup talk at the beginning, so I think Dylan knowing that he was going to fakeclaim mayor if two did not claim is a little bit of a stretch.

[gkrieg13]

vote: fang. Bad case.

Which one? I've made a number of cases, two each on MiX and scola I think.

The scumslip argument.

This is definitely more active that EFHW was in the last D1 I played with her.

[mathdude]

Vote "count" 1.3:
Votes for EFHW: jotheonah, MiX, Swowl
Votes for fang: EFHW, scolapasta
votes for MiX: Joseph2302
votes for WestCoastDidds: faust, gkrieg13, infangthief

not voting: Dylan32, WestCoastDidds
(with 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to exile)

Reminder: Day 1 ends at 3:00pm EST on Tuesday, December 7th (that's just 22 hours away)

[gkrieg13]

Fang's scumslip argument was too contrived,  so it looked to me like scum trying to appear to be scumhunting.

This is good reasoning.

[gkrieg13]

Eh, I think I like an EFHW exile even less than a Didds exile.

unvote

I'm also pretty ok with treating the mayors as ICs for now. I think testing them is useful for sure, but at this point is going to take too much time.

I don't think scum fakeclaims mayor here.

So that leaves 6 people, 2 with votes. I'll go reread fang and MiX real quick.

unvote

[gkrieg13]

Apparently I really want to unvote.

[gkrieg13]

But actually, vote: Didds

I don't like this vote. But otherwise, don't see anything really in fang's posts. Can't really get a good read on him D1 when I haven't really played with him before.

[gkrieg13]

So, the scummiest of that list are EFHW... <snip>

Why do you think EFHW is scummy this game?

It is interesting that he chose this name out of that list.

[gkrieg13]

vote: infangthief

Seems like the most likely wagon that isn't EFHW or Didds.

[jotheonah]

As far as exiling WCD, meh. I mean if we want a lurker, I guess. But I've never been a fan of exiling lurkers D1, and WCD at least says she was on vacation and has a reasonable excuse for it. I'm more curious about gkrieg, joth, and swowl. Especially the last two, as they are usually more prolific.

Where you guys at?

Just watching, waiting, disliking day 1. I weighed in on the claims thing quite a bit. And I shared that I think EFHW is a better exile than didds, which I stand by. I think the fang “scum slip” case was bad but it thought EFHW’s vote based on that was worse. And then they did something else that pinged me, but I can’t remember what it was.

[WestCoastDidds]

On the plane now, I’ll be back in situ in the morning!

[WestCoastDidds]

I hear a lot of complaining about how we're not doing any scumhunting and not a lot of scumhunting.

I'm scumhunting, FWIW. I just don't broadcast my results.

Observing is not complaining. You’ve offered nothing up enigmatic she’s scum one-offs, so there is nothing for me to say to you.

[EFHW]

It goes right to the heart of the matter re this mayor situation.

What do you mean by this?

... We had not reached a consensus on claiming when it actually happened, so that was a pointless conversation.

And I have no idea why having both Dylan and Joseph vote/exile the same person (me!) would help us learn anything except that they aren’t both drunk. ...

I mean, I know that much, but how does what Didds said there "go to the heart of the matter"?

The heart of the matter for me is the ways it which the discussion seemed just a bit pointless. Until she posted, I thought I was the only one feeling that way.

[EFHW]

I don't think fakeclaiming mayor would be a smart scum move, but I don't feel either claim is particularly compelling, and there are weak spots in both, as I have pointed out. I don't want to hand them IC status quite yet.

You pointed out weak spots in Joseph's claim?

I looked back and I see I was more questioning him in several different ways rather than the claim specifically.

[EFHW]

Vote: Didds

This post came immediately after a post by Didds. Can you say what you were reacting to?

[EFHW]

I reread fang. His early posts are pretty fluffy, but then later he does seem to be doing scumhunting. I feel less confident about my vote, but this being D1 close to deadline, I'll stay there until find something better.

[WestCoastDidds]

Vote: faust

The more I think about it the more I see him contributing to conversations that distract or derail, and generally doing very little to move us forward. I’m also not fond of the way he’s buddying up to MiX.

[Dylan32]

Math will quote the hammer, by the way, so we don't need him to be active as long as we apply good conditional logic and have 1 person we want to exile.

That's a good point, I totally forgot about that. Also, I was more worried about it when I was thinking we were going to try to get Joseph on Didds real quick and then find a different wagon and not knowing how things would go.

[Dylan32]

The fact is, we are bagging as if you are both if now do having your both vote for me will not help us distinguish between who is drunk and who is a mayor.

The point of all this is not to find out who is Drunk and who is Mayor (because arguably that is not information we want to make available to scum). The point is just to test whether someone is lying.

So at first when I saw this post from Didds, it rang as scummy to me since I think it's been clear that we (or at least I if nobody else) wanted to keep that distinction away from scum. Definitely would be enough to bump Didds back into the exile pool for me, but then I remembered the whole vacation thing, and forgetting a detail like that when the idea earlier in the game was to figure out which the claimer was is pretty understandable, so probably it's nothing.

[faust]

Vote: Didds

This post came immediately after a post by Didds. Can you say what you were reacting to?

I suppose it doesn't hurt now. That was indeed in reaction to Didds's post. The sarcasm seemed uncharacteristic. More covering up nervosity with a joke than actual good-natured joking.

[faust]

Vote: faust

The more I think about it the more I see him contributing to conversations that distract or derail, and generally doing very little to move us forward. I’m also not fond of the way he’s buddying up to MiX.

Where was I contributing to conversations that distract or derail?
Where was I buddying up to MiX?

[faust]

I hear a lot of complaining about how we're not doing any scumhunting and not a lot of scumhunting.

I'm scumhunting, FWIW. I just don't broadcast my results.

Observing is not complaining. You’ve offered nothing up enigmatic she’s scum one-offs, so there is nothing for me to say to you.

Are you absolutely sure that this is not complaining?

To me, it feels unfair.. why not just use a RNG?  At the very least it’s a waste of time.

[faust]

I hear a lot of complaining about how we're not doing any scumhunting and not a lot of scumhunting.

I'm scumhunting, FWIW. I just don't broadcast my results.

Observing is not complaining. You’ve offered nothing up enigmatic she’s scum one-offs, so there is nothing for me to say to you.

Are you absolutely sure that this is not complaining?

At this point, I’m really just kind of over it. No one cares if I’m scum or not. [...] To me, it feels unfair.. why not just use a RNG?  At the very least it’s a waste of time.

EBWOP

[infangthief]

So, the scummiest of that list are EFHW... <snip>

Why do you think EFHW is scummy this game?

Snipping a much longer list there is way out of context.

Her subsequent play hasn’t been as scummy, but when I wrote that this morning she hadn’t been engaging much.

Ok, so I shouldn't have snipped that post. I shouldn't have quoted it at all. I should just have said "Why do you think EFHW is scummy?"

Because at the point I voted for you, I think your non-fluffy content had been 2 posts:

Mix’s eyeball is also a spaceship.

I’m not sure what to think of Joseph claiming while we’re still talking about the wisdom of claiming.

Valid. No objection to this comment, especially coming from someone who doesn't like engaging in this kind of thing.

Cool VC. Let me just structure it as standard:

Vote Count 1.1:

faust (1): MiX
jotheonah (1): Dylan32
MiX (3): infangthief, Joseph2302, faust
WestCoastDidds (1): gkrieg13

Day 1 ends at 3:00pm EST on Tuesday, December 7th


I reread Dylan and I think he's town. I see very little reason for scum!Joseph to claim when he did. So I'm okay with calling them ICs.

Vote: EFHW, let's move on with the day.

Yeah, but why??

This pinged me as "I feel I need to make a contribution. But I don't have any reads. Normally I have a read on EFHW, but this is awkward because I don't. Let's see what other people think of EFHW."
It's ok to question a vote. I think it is scummy to question a vote when you've provided virtually no opinions (or votes) yourself.
Which is why I responded in #236 asking you what you thought of EFHW.

And, the lack of further activity after that is why I then voted for you.

Then you got round to a good long post giving views on lots of things (#301, the one I snipped from). I think it is mostly towny giving your general reactions to lots of things like that.
But because of my previous question to you about EFHW, I paused when I saw you put her first on your scummy list. Went back and checked what you'd said earlier in the post and all I could find was:

I’m always, always suspicious of EFHW.

Hence the question "Why do you find EFHW scummy this game".

[infangthief]

I get that the game has moved on, and you were on vacation for a fair bit and catching up reading probably out of sync with where the game actually was, and several people have now given their views on EFHW, so I'm probably not going to get the answers I wanted way back 3 days ago. Oh well, opportunity missed.

[Swowl]

because of the hammer in quotes thing we need to have at a minimum one of the mayors on the wagon for the day.
I still think it should be both and we go for over kill.
I also am still a fan of EFHW over the other options, but I will commit to anyone to get both on.
I get the upside of accepting two IC's (which I do), but The downsides of moving past Day 1 with no info on what the mayor's votes do... just seems like absolutely unnecessary and bad.

[infangthief]

vote: MiX
#229 and #259 sum up my reasons pretty well.

[infangthief]

So, the scummiest of that list are EFHW... <snip>

Why do you think EFHW is scummy this game?

It is interesting that he chose this name out of that list.

It was because I'd previously asked her about EFHW and got no response. And because all she had said in this post was "I always find EFHW scummy."

[MiX]

vote: MiX
#229 and #259 sum up my reasons pretty well.

Any real reasons?

Anyway, fang would vote for EFHW if he was scum and she was not. So I think he's town.

[faust]

I do emphatically not approve of the dissolution of the Didds wagon.

[faust]

But, that said,

Vote: MiX

[MiX]

It's so easy to exile Didds for being aggro, but that just makes her boring.

I think scum's very active in this game, so there's probably at least 1 scum wagoned. I don't have a lot of confidence exiling scum this D1 anyway.

But, that said,

Vote: MiX

Oh.

Hey Dylan, can you vote me? Then if I live you aren't both mayors.

[faust]

Hey Dylan, can you vote me? Then if I live you aren't both mayors.

Yeah and afterwards you can vote for yourself to make sure one of them isn't lying.

[faust]

It should be very clear that town!MiX wouldn't ask to potentially be exiled.

[MiX]

It should be very clear that town!MiX wouldn't ask to potentially be exiled.

It should be very clear that scum!MiX wouldn't ask to potentially be exiled.

[faust]

 

[MiX]

It's true! I don't understand how asking to be exiled is proof of my scummyness. At least explain that.

[Joseph2302]

Vote:mix
Let's get some info on the mayor/drunk thing

[faust]

It's true! I don't understand how asking to be exiled is proof of my scummyness. At least explain that.

I suppose it could be helpful for others.

We have 2 options here: Either MiX thinks the 2 Mayors scenario is realistic enough to be considered, or not. It is worth noting that scum!MiX would have a better idea of what to expect than town!MiX, as scum already knows what firepower they have.

Let's consider where MiX thinks it is a realistic option.

Town!MiX perspective:
Then Dylan's vote could be the hammer. The upside is knowing both claimants tell the truth, and the downside is a town death. How bad that is, only MiX knows. However, by offering himself up as a sacrifice, he's basically yelling at scum "LOOK I'M NOT A PR". It's also notable that fang's wagon has been sitting at 2 votes for some time, yet MiX did not suggest to run the test there. Why not? For town!MiX it is certainly better to test on potential!scum!fang than on himself.

Scum!MiX perspective:
There is a good chance that Dylan might comply, which would clearly be terrible for scum if there are 2 Mayors. However, there is still a sufficiently large chance that there's only one Mayor (or maybe MiX knows a scumpartner is among the claimants). If it ends up failing however, MiX can make the argument we just saw - "Scum wouldn't do this". Given that MiX has a late-day wagon building steam, this might provide a way out of a tricky situation, and thus the risk is worth it.

I do think however that it's more likely MiX doesn't take the 2 Mayors scenario seriously.

Town!MiX perspective:
Why then waste time on a test? Dylan doesn't take the scenario seriously either. There is a possible angle whereby MiX is trying to obscure the fact that he has a PR by acting extremely VT-like, but in the end that sort of play is disingenuous and thus a bad idea to do as town, as it will rightly be read as scummy. Especially considering that he might be forced into a claim either way, considering he's a major wagon in the last 12 hours of the Day.

Scum!MiX perspective:
Basically what I said about the scum!MiX perspective before still holds true, only now MiX actually doesn't think it's even a risk, so there is an even stronger incentive to use this sort of posturing as a way to deflect his wagon.

[MiX]

So, about not saying "let's test on fang", I think it was some combination of the wrong amount of votes and it being too early? It also felt wrong to suggest it on anyone other than myself.

I'm taking the 2 mayor case very seriously, as I think it's the most likely option. Not by a lot, but I think having 1 mayor and 1 drunk is just a little bit too predictable. And of course, it doesn't realistically make sense for scum to claim D1 anyway.

Everyone is a good test for 2 mayors though. Even if a cop dies, we get 2 ICs.

[faust]

it doesn't realistically make sense for scum to claim D1 anyway.

Everyone is a good test for 2 mayors though. Even if a cop dies, we get 2 ICs.

These two contradict each other. Either we already have ICs, or we get them by testing.

[MiX]

it doesn't realistically make sense for scum to claim D1 anyway.

Everyone is a good test for 2 mayors though. Even if a cop dies, we get 2 ICs.

These two contradict each other. Either we already have ICs, or we get them by testing.

They're not ICs until they're tested. The above sentence is about what I seriously consider, and because I don't think they're scum, the chances of both being mayors increases.

[jotheonah]

MiX is actually making sense here if you accept his big premise, that 2 mayors are possible.

But it’s a ridiculous premise. The whole “one of each is too predictable” thing this just fancy play syndrome.

[jotheonah]

Speaking of fancy play though, offering himself up as a sacrifice because he’s betting that we won’t believe anyone who offers themselves up as a sacrifice is scum does seem like something MiX might do.

He also might be hoping to run out the clock trying to test. Then he gets the benefit of being willing to be the exile without actually having to be the exile. I think the chances of us accidentally no exiling while trying to do a claim-testing plan are significant.

All that said, I’m not super sold on the MiX wagon but I’ll vote there to get an exile.

[Joseph2302]

He also might be hoping to run out the clock trying to test. Then he gets the benefit of being willing to be the exile without actually having to be the exile. I think the chances of us accidentally no exiling while trying to do a claim-testing plan are significant.

That's why I committed a vote, because I think we need to do the test, and then assuming it doesn't lead to an exile (which seems likely IMO), then we'll need to actually exile someone

[Joseph2302]

It's why I was tempted to vote for Didds yesterday, even though I don't think she was a create choice to exile. Because getting the test done (which IMO has a low chance of causing an exile) gives information, and then we can work towards actually exiling

[infangthief]

I do emphatically not approve of the dissolution of the Didds wagon.

It is interesting that MiX had the opportunity to really make that wagon roll, and didn't.

[infangthief]

It's so easy to exile Didds for being aggro, but that just makes her boring.

It's exactly that aggro (passive aggression really) that makes me think she might be town. In my (very limited) experience, she fights when she's town and sits back when she's scum. In the dwarfs mafia game my (correct) day 1 scumread of her stemmed from her not bothering to fight her wagon.

[WestCoastDidds]

I hear a lot of complaining about how we're not doing any scumhunting and not a lot of scumhunting.

I'm scumhunting, FWIW. I just don't broadcast my results.

Observing is not complaining. You’ve offered nothing up enigmatic she’s scum one-offs, so there is nothing for me to say to you.

Are you absolutely sure that this is not complaining?

At this point, I’m really just kind of over it. No one cares if I’m scum or not. [...] To me, it feels unfair.. why not just use a RNG?  At the very least it’s a waste of time.

EBWOP

This one line was part of a larger conversation about my lack of engagement, why I was feeling frustrated, and that I was trying not to get my feelings hurt about being run up for what I perceived to be as no reason, or at least as no reason that I could respond to. So, perhaps taken in isolation it is complaining. But the tenor of it wasn't a complaint. It was more of a "oh well".

[WestCoastDidds]

It's so easy to exile Didds for being aggro, but that just makes her boring.

Swoon

[Joseph2302]

I believe it's 6 hours until deadline. Let's get voting, people

PPE: 1

[WestCoastDidds]

It's so easy to exile Didds for being aggro, but that just makes her boring.

It's exactly that aggro (passive aggression really) that makes me think she might be town. In my (very limited) experience, she fights when she's town and sits back when she's scum. In the dwarfs mafia game my (correct) day 1 scumread of her stemmed from her not bothering to fight her wagon.

Interesting... and also, yes. 

[infangthief]

I believe it's 6 hours until deadline. Let's get voting, people

PPE: 1

5 hours now.
Joseph, if you want people to vote freely then I think you (and Dylan) need to be not voting.

I think lots of people should vote for MiX, because he is scum, but as it stands they can't because of fearing they'll mess up a test.
Hold out for Dylan to come and run the test if you prefer, but I have a feeling it is stopping people voting where they want to.

[gkrieg13]

Would vote for MiX. Not sure where the votes are though.

[MiX]

Vote: fang

You don't know if I'm scum. Lol.

[infangthief]

I'll lay out a MiX case more clearly in case it helps (though my experience is people run away from my cases!)

The single worst possible outcome of the Mayor/Drunk claiming is if only 1 mayor claimed, and they were proven to be a mayor (not drunk) by an exile going through at (normal) X-1. If that happened then we only get an IC when the day ends and, guess what, scum night-kill them.

After Joseph claimed, this is exactly the route that MiX tried to take us down.

So, we're doing the mayor plan, right? I don't see a downside anymore.

So, we're doing the mayor plan, right? I don't see a downside anymore.

The downside would still be in specifically knowing if Joseph is a Mayor or Drunk. That knowledge is still useful for scum. Surprised you wouldn't see this.

But maybe it's still better for us to know as well? Especially since I'm not sure how we'd be able not to just find out unless Joseph is against whatever wagon we come up with.

It's important for Joseph to know if he's mayor or drunk.

So, we're doing the mayor plan, right? I don't see a downside anymore.

I won't claim if I'm mayor or not.

How exactly is that gonna work?

Mayor plan is just, we get someone to 4 votes, then Joseph votes. If there's no exile, then we get a non-mayor to vote, so on and so forth. Thus we can determine what Joseph is. A hidden mayor also gets information, so it's fine.

I think those quotes make it clear what MiX's agenda was, before the second Mayor claim came.

PPE: 2

[infangthief]

Would vote for MiX. Not sure where the votes are though.

Fairly sure the votes on MiX at the moment are Joseph, me and faust. So counting 2-4 total.
Could do with a vote count please

[MiX]

Yes, I laid down my plan perfectly clear. So?

[infangthief]

I think we're at:

Votes for EFHW (2) : jotheonah, Swowl
Votes for fang (4) : EFHW, scolapasta, gkrieg13, MiX
votes for MiX (3) : Joseph2302, infangthief, faust
votes for faust (1) : WestCoastDidds

not voting: Dylan32
(with 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to exile)

[infangthief]

Yes, I laid down my plan perfectly clear. So?

How exactly would it have helped Joseph to find out that he was Mayor, with the final action of the day?
Drunk, ok, that would have been kind of useful, I accept, but that's quite the gamble.

[Joseph2302]

I believe it's 6 hours until deadline. Let's get voting, people

PPE: 1

5 hours now.
Joseph, if you want people to vote freely then I think you (and Dylan) need to be not voting.

I think lots of people should vote for MiX, because he is scum, but as it stands they can't because of fearing they'll mess up a test.
Hold out for Dylan to come and run the test if you prefer, but I have a feeling it is stopping people voting where they want to.

Fine, Unvote. Although I don't see how one of us voting is messing up the test...

[MiX]

MiX's perfect sacrificial plan:

- Dylan votes for me: I die if both are mayors.
- I unvote fang and both mayors vote fang: fang dies if 1 mayor and 1 liar
- Everyone votes me: we confirm mayor+drunk, or drunk+anything.

[MiX]

I believe it's 6 hours until deadline. Let's get voting, people

PPE: 1

5 hours now.
Joseph, if you want people to vote freely then I think you (and Dylan) need to be not voting.

I think lots of people should vote for MiX, because he is scum, but as it stands they can't because of fearing they'll mess up a test.
Hold out for Dylan to come and run the test if you prefer, but I have a feeling it is stopping people voting where they want to.

Fine, Unvote. Although I don't see how one of us voting is messing up the test...

You were doing perfectly. I think people just don't see double mayors as an option...

[MiX]

Fang, to answer your #408: at the time Joseph claimed, how was my plan not the best one? Forcing people to claim does not work, so with the single claim we had, hell yeah I wanted to confirm and kill Joseph. We have protective roles! A D1 IC is great! And if I was a mayor, I would've snuck in the wagon to do exactly what I'm trying to do right now.

[Joseph2302]

I believe it's 6 hours until deadline. Let's get voting, people

PPE: 1

5 hours now.
Joseph, if you want people to vote freely then I think you (and Dylan) need to be not voting.

I think lots of people should vote for MiX, because he is scum, but as it stands they can't because of fearing they'll mess up a test.
Hold out for Dylan to come and run the test if you prefer, but I have a feeling it is stopping people voting where they want to.

Fine, Unvote. Although I don't see how one of us voting is messing up the test...

You were doing perfectly. I think people just don't see double mayors as an option...

Well it does feel like everyone is leaving it too late and we'll get a no exile....

Talking of which, not sure if I'm going to be around for deadline

[MiX]

Currently we're waiting on Dylan. But leave your vote on me. People will agree to test on me.

[faust]

I think it's silly at this stage for anyone to hold back with their votes.

[EFHW]

MiX's perfect sacrificial plan:

- Dylan votes for me: I die if both are mayors.
- I unvote fang and both mayors vote fang: fang dies if 1 mayor and 1 liar
- Everyone votes me: we confirm mayor+drunk, or drunk+anything.

This seems workable. It helps us know what we have without specifying who is which role. On the face of it, MiX looks pretty towny for suggesting it. The scum narrative would be that he is so confident that there wouldn't be two mayors that he is willing to take this gamble. I don't understand step three, though. Who is "everyone"

[Dylan32]

Vote: MiX

I'll catch up more thoroughly in a half hour or so.

[scolapasta]

Also catching up, but have meetings from noon to 1. I should be able to make time after and around deadline.

[MiX]

MiX's perfect sacrificial plan:

- Dylan votes for me: I die if both are mayors.
- I unvote fang and both mayors vote fang: fang dies if 1 mayor and 1 liar
- Everyone votes me: we confirm mayor+drunk, or drunk+anything.

This seems workable. It helps us know what we have without specifying who is which role. On the face of it, MiX looks pretty towny for suggesting it. The scum narrative would be that he is so confident that there wouldn't be two mayors that he is willing to take this gamble. I don't understand step three, though. Who is "everyone"

Everyone is everyone.

[MiX]

MiX's perfect sacrificial plan:

- Dylan votes for me: I die if both are mayors.
- I unvote fang and both mayors vote fang: fang dies if 1 mayor and 1 liar
- Everyone votes me: we confirm mayor+drunk, or drunk+anything.

This seems workable. It helps us know what we have without specifying who is which role. On the face of it, MiX looks pretty towny for suggesting it. The scum narrative would be that he is so confident that there wouldn't be two mayors that he is willing to take this gamble. I don't understand step three, though. Who is "everyone"

Everyone is everyone.

Oh, importantly, with both mayors voting before I go to X-0

[faust]

MiX's perfect sacrificial plan:

- Dylan votes for me: I die if both are mayors.
- I unvote fang and both mayors vote fang: fang dies if 1 mayor and 1 liar
- Everyone votes me: we confirm mayor+drunk, or drunk+anything.

This seems workable. It helps us know what we have without specifying who is which role. On the face of it, MiX looks pretty towny for suggesting it. The scum narrative would be that he is so confident that there wouldn't be two mayors that he is willing to take this gamble. I don't understand step three, though. Who is "everyone"

We should obviously not switch to fang. First of all, there isn't time to coordinate the mayors switching votes as Joseph already said he might not be there for the deadline, and secondly, if MiX is scum with a scumpartner fakeclaiming, this may be a last-ditch effort to secure a different exile.

[WestCoastDidds]

In between meetings at work. I didn’t realize we were so close to the deadline.

Can I vote for fang? Or does it have to be MiX? Or do the mayoral candidates need to do their thing??

[Joseph2302]

Vote: MiX

I'll catch up more thoroughly in a half hour or so.

I'm lost with the vote counts. Now Dylan has voted, is now the right time for me to vote too?

PPE: 1

[Swowl]

Here on mobile - but will be here until end at this point

[EFHW]

You could vote him and then move your vote before you leave. If it's the hammer, it won't matter that you made another vote after.

[EFHW]

That was to Joseph.

[Joseph2302]

Vote: MiX

[Joseph2302]

You could vote him and then move your vote before you leave.

well I think it's the best vote anyway so don't plan to change
If MiX is town offering themself up to be exiled, then I assume they must be VT. And losing a VT isn't worst thing in the world.

[MiX]

MiX's perfect sacrificial plan:

- Dylan votes for me: I die if both are mayors.
- I unvote fang and both mayors vote fang: fang dies if 1 mayor and 1 liar
- Everyone votes me: we confirm mayor+drunk, or drunk+anything.

This seems workable. It helps us know what we have without specifying who is which role. On the face of it, MiX looks pretty towny for suggesting it. The scum narrative would be that he is so confident that there wouldn't be two mayors that he is willing to take this gamble. I don't understand step three, though. Who is "everyone"

We should obviously not switch to fang. First of all, there isn't time to coordinate the mayors switching votes as Joseph already said he might not be there for the deadline, and secondly, if MiX is scum with a scumpartner fakeclaiming, this may be a last-ditch effort to secure a different exile.

We can obviously switch to fang. After proving one of the mayors is a drunk, we can test the rest tomorrow. Which means you only need to put someone on X-1. Then we can exile.

[jotheonah]

Vote:MiX

[jotheonah]

Vote: MiX

just in case the space matters

[MiX]

Ok well now I'm dead if there isn't a drunk.

[MiX]

Now that I have sacrificed myself to the mayor gods...

...can we take a look at when fang said I was scum? He does not know I'm scum. That part of his post made no sense. His entire case is around me doing a play that is supposed to help scum. This is not nearly enough to simply say I'm scum.

It's the post right before I vote him.

[Swowl]

5 hours now.
Joseph, if you want people to vote freely then I think you (and Dylan) need to be not voting.

I think lots of people should vote for MiX, because he is scum, but as it stands they can't because of fearing they'll mess up a test.
Hold out for Dylan to come and run the test if you prefer, but I have a feeling it is stopping people voting where they want to.

I think this is the post you are referring to. And yeah Fang, what made you switch from giving MiX town cred for not going after WCD when they could to "they are skum"?

[scolapasta]

Now that I have sacrificed myself to the mayor gods...

...can we take a look at when fang said I was scum? He does not know I'm scum. That part of his post made no sense. His entire case is around me doing a play that is supposed to help scum. This is not nearly enough to simply say I'm scum.

It's the post right before I vote him.

Are you saying this is a scumslip? That seems weird to me. I could see it if he (or someone) said "MiX is town" because that's something scum knows. But not with declaring someone as scum. That would just fit more into the style of town feeling strongly about a suspicion and stating that way (something which you, my friend, do very often, no?)

That said, I'm still on fang for today, as I still believe his earlier stretches on a case for me where overdone and felt inorganic. I just don't think this is extra evidence for it.

I've been noodling on the MiX case, as well, and it's not entirely without merit. I could see him trying something like what faust suggested (I am on team - not two mayors), and I also am noticing that MiX is not posting with that same "directness" he normally posts. And if it turns out we exile Mix and he is scum, some of EFHW's recent post feel like they could be a partner.

[MiX]

I am not fang! Fang is not me! What I do as town is independent of what he does as town!

[Swowl]

votes for MiX (5?) :  infangthief, faust, Dylan32, Joseph2302, Joth
Votes for fang (4) : EFHW, scolapasta, gkrieg13, MiX
Votes for EFHW (1) : Swowl
votes for faust (1) : WestCoastDidds

So...
A) Dylan and Joseph both mayors = 7 votes (exiled)
B) 1 Mayor/1 Drunk = 5 votes (E-1)
C) 1 Mayor/1 Regular = 6 votes (exiled)
D) 1 Drunk/1 Regular = 4 Votes (E-2)
E) Both Drunks = 3 Votes (E-3)

[Swowl]

I am not fang! Fang is not me! What I do as town is independent of what he does as town!

Do you think he is skum?
What changed from you pocketing him like 2 pages ago based on the whole "would vote EFHW if skum"?

[scolapasta]

votes for MiX (5?) :  infangthief, faust, Dylan32, Joseph2302, Joth
Votes for fang (4) : EFHW, scolapasta, gkrieg13, MiX
Votes for EFHW (1) : Swowl
votes for faust (1) : WestCoastDidds

So...
A) Dylan and Joseph both mayors = 7 votes (exiled)
B) 1 Mayor/1 Drunk = 5 votes (E-1)
C) 1 Mayor/1 Regular = 6 votes (exiled)
D) 1 Drunk/1 Regular = 4 Votes (E-2)
E) Both Drunks = 3 Votes (E-3)

Why "regular" here and not "scum"? I mean I guess it's technically possible, but do you really think at all likely?

[infangthief]

5 hours now.
Joseph, if you want people to vote freely then I think you (and Dylan) need to be not voting.

I think lots of people should vote for MiX, because he is scum, but as it stands they can't because of fearing they'll mess up a test.
Hold out for Dylan to come and run the test if you prefer, but I have a feeling it is stopping people voting where they want to.

I think this is the post you are referring to. And yeah Fang, what made you switch from giving MiX town cred for not going after WCD when they could to "they are skum"?

I wasn't giving MiX town cred for not going after WCD. The opposite in fact. He said faust had convinced him about Didds being scum but wouldn't vote there because of the mayor situation. Fair enough. Then Dylan unvoted. That was the time at which MiX could have joined the wagon. But he didn't. And he was around, made other posts during that time.

Also, I think your recent vote count looks about right, in which case there is a good chance the day is still going on. Let's not let MiX trick us into no-exiling.

PPE 1

[EFHW]

I am not fang! Fang is not me! What I do as town is independent of what he does as town!

Do you think he is skum?
What changed from you pocketing him like 2 pages ago based on the whole "would vote EFHW if skum"?

MiX was asking what changed fang from townreading to scumreading MiX. You are asking the reciprocal question, what changed MiX'sread on fang. I just want to clarify that it's a separate question, not a following up on MiX's question.

PPE: 2

[MiX]

I am not fang! Fang is not me! What I do as town is independent of what he does as town!

Do you think he is skum?
What changed from you pocketing him like 2 pages ago based on the whole "would vote EFHW if skum"?

Yes.
The post that I mentioned that you quoted.

5 hours now.
Joseph, if you want people to vote freely then I think you (and Dylan) need to be not voting.

I think lots of people should vote for MiX, because he is scum, but as it stands they can't because of fearing they'll mess up a test.
Hold out for Dylan to come and run the test if you prefer, but I have a feeling it is stopping people voting where they want to.

I think this is the post you are referring to. And yeah Fang, what made you switch from giving MiX town cred for not going after WCD when they could to "they are skum"?

I wasn't giving MiX town cred for not going after WCD. The opposite in fact. He said faust had convinced him about Didds being scum but wouldn't vote there because of the mayor situation. Fair enough. Then Dylan unvoted. That was the time at which MiX could have joined the wagon. But he didn't. And he was around, made other posts during that time.

Also, I think your recent vote count looks about right, in which case there is a good chance the day is still going on. Let's not let MiX trick us into no-exiling.

PPE 1

I don't consider Dylan's vote, because he's a mayor. At the time there were...what, 2 non-mayor votes on Didds? 3? I wanted 2 non-mayor votes and 2 mayor votes on someone.

Also, I'm sorta townreading Didds now but eeeeeeh.

[jotheonah]

Request Vote Count

One flaw in all these plans is that we don't know if the exile happened or not until we get a vote count. We could be in twilight, but probably not, and we don't know when we'll know.

[MiX]

EoD's in less than an hour?

I will "hammer" myself for mayor shenanigans if it comes down to it. But only because I might not die from that.

Request Vote Count

One flaw in all these plans is that we don't know if the exile happened or not until we get a vote count. We could be in twilight, but probably not, and we don't know when we'll know.

Once we know then the day will be over or not. You should act as if I'm not dead, otherwise nothing matters anyway.

[MiX]

Well, time to make a legacy. I will split this into multiple posts because I don't know when math gets here.

EFHW is town. Evidence:

I reread fang. His early posts are pretty fluffy, but then later he does seem to be doing scumhunting. I feel less confident about my vote, but this being D1 close to deadline, I'll stay there until find something better.

Absolutely zero reason to say this if she's scum. It's also pretty townie.

[faust]

Now that I have sacrificed myself to the mayor gods...

...can we take a look at when fang said I was scum? He does not know I'm scum. That part of his post made no sense. His entire case is around me doing a play that is supposed to help scum. This is not nearly enough to simply say I'm scum.

It's the post right before I vote him.

You say "X is scum" all the time...

[MiX]

I am not fang! Fang is not me! What I do as town is independent of what he does as town!

[gkrieg13]

Sorry I missed the deadline. Meeting went longer than it was supposed to.

[faust]

I am not fang! Fang is not me! What I do as town is independent of what he does as town!

Can you provide evidence that fang does not use hyperbole?

[faust]

Sorry I missed the deadline. Meeting went longer than it was supposed to.

The deadline is in half an hour I thought.

[gkrieg13]

Oh wait, time zones switched.

Here, ready to vote MiX

[MiX]

I am not fang! Fang is not me! What I do as town is independent of what he does as town!

Can you provide evidence that fang does not use hyperbole?

That's not possible. Besides, this is my first game with him. My impression with his post style is that he's not someone that would do it. It was very jarring in his post to see an absolute like that. I don't think it matches the rest of his play, this game at least.

[faust]

Oh wait, time zones switched.

Here, ready to vote MiX

I'm ready for MiX to be voted for.

[gkrieg13]

Is Swowl just going to stay on EFHW?

[gkrieg13]

vote: MiX

[scolapasta]

Well, time to make a legacy. I will split this into multiple posts because I don't know when math gets here.

EFHW is town. Evidence:

I reread fang. His early posts are pretty fluffy, but then later he does seem to be doing scumhunting. I feel less confident about my vote, but this being D1 close to deadline, I'll stay there until find something better.

Absolutely zero reason to say this if she's scum. It's also pretty townie.

Huh? I mean I've definitelyt seen scum want to hedge on their vote so when person does flip town, they can say "but see, I wasn't sure of it". I mean that was one of Awaclus' main arguments against me in BSG S1 (when I was scum).

I think it could be townie too, but in no way is this "zero reason" as scum.

[infangthief]

5 hours now.
Joseph, if you want people to vote freely then I think you (and Dylan) need to be not voting.

I think lots of people should vote for MiX, because he is scum, but as it stands they can't because of fearing they'll mess up a test.
Hold out for Dylan to come and run the test if you prefer, but I have a feeling it is stopping people voting where they want to.

I think this is the post you are referring to. And yeah Fang, what made you switch from giving MiX town cred for not going after WCD when they could to "they are skum"?

I wasn't giving MiX town cred for not going after WCD. The opposite in fact. He said faust had convinced him about Didds being scum but wouldn't vote there because of the mayor situation. Fair enough. Then Dylan unvoted. That was the time at which MiX could have joined the wagon. But he didn't. And he was around, made other posts during that time.

Also, I think your recent vote count looks about right, in which case there is a good chance the day is still going on. Let's not let MiX trick us into no-exiling.

PPE 1

I don't consider Dylan's vote, because he's a mayor. At the time there were...what, 2 non-mayor votes on Didds? 3? I wanted 2 non-mayor votes and 2 mayor votes on someone.

Also, I'm sorta townreading Didds now but eeeeeeh.

Not voting for Didds because of town reading her is absolutely fine.
Not voting for Didds because she wasn't on the exact right number of votes for your plan is very questionable.

Here is where you got "convinced" by faust:
This is the point

And you'd rather vote for a lurker than for someone on a "probably scum-driven" wagon?

Didds is much more of a lurker than EFHW...

And I have never said otherwise. However, unlike EFHW, she is also scum.

Hmm, okay. Consider me convinced, but I can't vote for Didds as that might be hammer.

Then Dylan unvoted. That meant you could vote there without any danger of hammer.

I mean, I assumed the fact you didn't was because you had become "unconvinced" again. Or maybe never were convinced. But now you say that a big part of it was just that there weren't the exact right number of votes on her.

You've been taking this voting plan thing much too seriously, a script of exactly how things have to happen.

PPE: at least 9

[MiX]

Drunk liar please?

Well, time to make a legacy. I will split this into multiple posts because I don't know when math gets here.

EFHW is town. Evidence:

I reread fang. His early posts are pretty fluffy, but then later he does seem to be doing scumhunting. I feel less confident about my vote, but this being D1 close to deadline, I'll stay there until find something better.

Absolutely zero reason to say this if she's scum. It's also pretty townie.

Huh? I mean I've definitelyt seen scum want to hedge on their vote so when person does flip town, they can say "but see, I wasn't sure of it". I mean that was one of Awaclus' main arguments against me in BSG S1 (when I was scum).

I think it could be townie too, but in no way is this "zero reason" as scum.

Well there's no reason to reread as scum. At least if you assume I'm town.

You've been taking this voting plan thing much too seriously, a script of exactly how things have to happen.

Yes, I've been meaning to follow the mayor plan ever since it was first mentioned.

[faust]

Ok I'm like 98% sure we had a hammer, so I'll take off.

[jotheonah]

I'm beginning to think this was a  terrible plan. Or at least that doing this way before deadline needed to be a part of the plan.

[MiX]

Read fang's post: he did not once call me scum, or scummy, or what have you. Just "questionable" things. Is this the kind of person to say someone is scum out of the blue? No. They are not.

Ok I'm like 98% sure we had a hammer, so I'll take off.

NK Didds, you won't regret it.

I'm beginning to think this was a  terrible plan. Or at least that doing this way before deadline needed to be a part of the plan.

You could've voted fang instead.

[scolapasta]

Welp, either the day is done or we have two drunks (or 1 drunk and 1 scum)?

A legit vote count would be nice right about now...

[scolapasta]

Well there's no reason to reread as scum. At least if you assume I'm town.

Cause scum would never a) claim to reread or b) actually reread, in order to make an argument.

If Mix ends up being scum, I'm, thinking EFHW for tomorrow.

[scolapasta]

NK Didds, you won't regret it.

Are you directing the scum NK here?!?

[MiX]

Welp, either the day is done or we have two drunks (or 1 drunk and 1 scum)?

A legit vote count would be nice right about now...

Correct


Unrelated, I reread joth, and I think he's town. It just kinda feels like last game? But I also just don't see any scummyness. Simple joth opinions.

Well there's no reason to reread as scum. At least if you assume I'm town.

Cause scum would never a) claim to reread or b) actually reread, in order to make an argument.

If Mix ends up being scum, I'm, thinking EFHW for tomorrow.

Yes, please think EFHW is my alignment.

There's no reason to make that argument at that time. I also think, as much as I disagree with calling fang's posts "scumhunting", that it's a valid way of looking at them. So that hints to a real reread.

NK Didds, you won't regret it.

Are you directing the scum NK here?!?

Once you're trapped in your own delusions, you'll see evidence supporting it everywhere.

No. If I was directing the scum NK, I would say to kill Dylan. He's obviously town, unless he's scum. So, the best NK target.

[MiX]

Unrelated, I reread joth, and I think he's town. It just kinda feels like last game? But I also just don't see any scummyness. Simple joth opinions.

Just putting this in a different post for visibility.

[MiX]

Reread scola, wow does he defend Didds a lot. Put them partnered if one flips scum. But otherwise townie. So, null, I guess.

[Dylan32]

Well there's no reason to reread as scum. At least if you assume I'm town.

Cause scum would never a) claim to reread or b) actually reread, in order to make an argument.

If Mix ends up being scum, I'm, thinking EFHW for tomorrow.

I just wholeheartedly disagree with the premise that there's no reason to reread as scum and that they would never actually do it. I've reread as scum in pretty much every scum game I've played. You don't win (as often at least) as scum without looking like you are actually scumhunting. You can't look like you're scumhunting without actually looking back and finding things that people have said that look scummy.

I guess I'm agreeing with scola here, because I think I missed the heavily implied sarcasm until after I was done typing that first paragraph lol.

[Dylan32]

That said, the scola/Didds pairing is one to look at tomorrow if MiX is town.

[MiX]

Well there's no reason to reread as scum. At least if you assume I'm town.

Cause scum would never a) claim to reread or b) actually reread, in order to make an argument.

If Mix ends up being scum, I'm, thinking EFHW for tomorrow.

I just wholeheartedly disagree with the premise that there's no reason to reread as scum and that they would never actually do it. I've reread as scum in pretty much every scum game I've played. You don't win (as often at least) as scum without looking like you are actually scumhunting. You can't look like you're scumhunting without actually looking back and finding things that people have said that look scummy.

I guess I'm agreeing with scola here, because I think I missed the heavily implied sarcasm until after I was done typing that first paragraph lol.

Lol. Also,

Vote: MiX

[MiX]

Unvote

[MiX]

Meh, I don't feel like paying attention to this game anymore. If it's double drunk and I'm alive, I'll read at night time, but if not then

Good night everyone! And good luck!

[Swowl]

votes for MiX (5?) :  infangthief, faust, Dylan32, Joseph2302, Joth
Votes for fang (4) : EFHW, scolapasta, gkrieg13, MiX
Votes for EFHW (1) : Swowl
votes for faust (1) : WestCoastDidds

So...
A) Dylan and Joseph both mayors = 7 votes (exiled)
B) 1 Mayor/1 Drunk = 5 votes (E-1)
C) 1 Mayor/1 Regular = 6 votes (exiled)
D) 1 Drunk/1 Regular = 4 Votes (E-2)
E) Both Drunks = 3 Votes (E-3)

Why "regular" here and not "scum"? I mean I guess it's technically possible, but do you really think at all likely?

typing quickly did not have much time at a computer.

[Swowl]

sorry I missed, work.
looking like it did not matter.

[mathdude]

Thread locked.

For the record (and to apologize for lack of vote counts), my records show this to be correct at the time it was posted.

I think we're at:

Votes for EFHW (2) : jotheonah, Swowl
Votes for fang (4) : EFHW, scolapasta, gkrieg13, MiX
votes for MiX (3) : Joseph2302, infangthief, faust
votes for faust (1) : WestCoastDidds

not voting: Dylan32
(with 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to exile)

(Sorry for my absence today - it was an absolutely hectic day and I forgot all about it!)

While the Mice were talking and playing, the hammer fell:

Vote:MiX

End of day post coming shortly.

[mathdude]

The wee mice were nestled all snug in their beds while visions of sharp cheddar danced in their heads.  Momma had warned us, "watch out for that trap"; we were ready for shut-eye - a long winter night's nap.  Before we could sleep, there arose such a clatter, so I sprang from my bed to see what was the matter.  Accusations were flying.  "Exile someone", they said, but before I could do anything, MiX was dead.

MiX has been exiled and was Mighty Mouse, a Vanilla Townie

Vote "count" 1.final
Votes for EFWH: Swowl
Votes for faust: WestCoastDidds
Votes for infangthief: EFHW, gkrieg13, MiX, scolapasta
Votes for MiX: Dylan32, faust, infangthief, Joseph2302, jotheonah
(with 11 alive, it took 6 votes to exile)

Night 1 starts now and ends at 4:06pm EST on Thursday, December 9th.  Actions must be submitted by that time.

[mathdude]

The sunrise was like magic on the new-fallen snow, but then it revealed what had happened below.  When what to my wondering eyes did appear, but Swowl was found dead, making my eyes tear

Swowl has been killed while protecting Dylan32 and was Speedy Gonzalez, the Modified Bodyguard.

Vote "count" 2.0
Not voting: Dylan32, EFHW, faust, gkrieg13, infangthief, Joseph2302, jotheonah, scolapasta, WestCoastDidds,
(with 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to exile)

Day 2 starts now and ends at 4:16pm EST on Thursday, December 16th.

THREAD UNLOCKED

[jotheonah]

So about this vote count:

Vote "count" 1.final
Votes for EFWH: Swowl
Votes for faust: WestCoastDidds
Votes for infangthief: EFHW, gkrieg13, MiX, scolapasta
Votes for MiX: Dylan32, faust, infangthief, Joseph2302, jotheonah
(with 11 alive, it took 6 votes to exile)

Night 1 starts now and ends at 4:06pm EST on Thursday, December 9th.  Actions must be submitted by that time.

Both of the mayor/drunk claimants were on the wagon, but the hammer happened at 5 votes. If they were one of each it would have happened at 6 votes. If they were both drunks it would have taken 8 votes.  If they were both mayors, it would have happened at 4 votes.

I can't think of any way that they have three votes between them unless one of them is a normal voter and therefor a liar and therefore scum.

And we know that Dylan was the NK target, which means he's not scum (unless scum targeted their own person or something crazy like that).

So... isn't Joseph just scum? Not voting yet in case I mathed wrong. But I think we have an  IC mayor and an almost-definite scum.

[gkrieg13]

Definitely Joseph warrants a vote.

[jotheonah]

But why would scum target the other claimant? if they succeeded their person would be just as exposed.

Is it possible a vig targeted Dylan?

[gkrieg13]

But why would scum target the other claimant? if they succeeded their person would be just as exposed.

Is it possible a vig targeted Dylan?

I agree that it seems unlikely scum would try to kill Dylan. I still think things point to Joseph being scum.

[gkrieg13]

vote: Joseph

[Dylan32]

Vote: Joseph

Joth nailed it with the vote analysis.

The only non-scum killing role listed as possible is an Even-night vig. Last night was an odd night, so the kill that targeted me was scum.

[Dylan32]

Oh, and Swowl, you're my hero! lol

[EFHW]

There could be two mayors and a drunk on the wagon.

[Dylan32]

There could be two mayors and a drunk on the wagon.

I mean, technically possible. If there is another drunkmayor on the wagon, you pretty much have to claim now, and if you don't it's a scum claim later.

[Dylan32]

But, recalling how unlikely I think 2 mayors is in the first place, 2 + 1 drunk seems even less likely.

[WestCoastDidds]

Hi hi hi!

The odds of there being two mayors seems absurdly low, right? The smart money seems like - mayor, one liar.

I’m wasn’t sure why Joseph would claim, but now realize that he successfully outed the mayor with no problem.

[jotheonah]

I will

vote: Joseph

but I still think something doesn’t add up here. That seems like a suicidal nightkill choice.

[EFHW]

That's E-1, maybe.

[faust]

I’m wasn’t sure why Joseph would claim, but now realize that he successfully outed the mayor with no problem.

Well, I don't think it was a good move, but it was a very Joseph-like move.

[faust]

There could be two mayors and a drunk on the wagon.

I mean, technically possible. If there is another drunkmayor on the wagon, you pretty much have to claim now, and if you don't it's a scum claim later.

Well joth would have claimed by now, and both fang and me have already claimed non-Mayor.

[faust]

There exists a non-zero probability that scum was betting on a Modified Bodyguard to exist and tried to kill scumpartner!Dylan, I suppose. Seems like quite a stretch though.

[Joseph2302]

I’m wasn’t sure why Joseph would claim, but now realize that he successfully outed the mayor with no problem.

Well, I don't think it was a good move, but it was a very Joseph-like move.

It's also entirely possible that Joseph thought he was a mayor but actually isn't
Because he's an idiot who forgot his role

[faust]

I'm sure that's what happened 

I think not everyone has posted yet, so I will allow for some more time, but consider this my

intent to hammer

[infangthief]

There could be two mayors and a drunk on the wagon.

I mean, technically possible. If there is another drunkmayor on the wagon, you pretty much have to claim now, and if you don't it's a scum claim later.

Well joth would have claimed by now, and both fang and me have already claimed non-Mayor.

<checks PM> No still not mayor.

So, er, Joseph, why did you target Dylan?

[faust]

Looking back at Joseph's claim, I think EFHW reacted to it in a very partnery way.

[faust]

I think everyone except scolapasta has posted. I will hammer once scolapasta has had a chance to post.

[Joseph2302]

I'm sure that's what happened 

Well then you're going to be disappointed
I screwed up sorry

[Joseph2302]

The only bit of tiny useful information from this is that scum probably didn't target Dylan or I last night (because scum didn't know which one of us was lying, so I guess they wouldn't try and kill either of us)

Of course, this is predicated on me being VT, which you'll see soon enough, I guess....

[EFHW]

It says at start of day that Swowl saved Dylan by being his bodyguard.

[EFHW]

Never lie as town.

[EFHW]

I think everyone except scolapasta has posted. I will hammer once scolapasta has had a chance to post.

Dylan might have been roleblocked.

Joseph VT  makes more sense than scum.

[jotheonah]

Joseph, buddy, you got to give us more than that. Why? Why would you do that if you're not scum?

[WestCoastDidds]

I just don’t see any way that someone jumps the gun to claim mayor when we hadn’t even finished discussing the wisdom of doing so making a mistake with their role. It seems far more likely it was either a plot and/or a lie.

PPe 2

[jotheonah]

I think everyone except scolapasta has posted. I will hammer once scolapasta has had a chance to post.

Dylan might have been roleblocked.

Joseph VT  makes more sense than scum.

Roleblocked on Night 0?

math, was anyone able to use role powers on Night 0?

[EFHW]

I think everyone except scolapasta has posted. I will hammer once scolapasta has had a chance to post.

Dylan might have been roleblocked.

Joseph VT  makes more sense than scum.

Roleblocked on Night 0?

math, was anyone able to use role powers on Night 0?

"Day-type roles that are role-blocked at night become a VT the following day (both Mayor and Drunk revert to VT for the day)."

Oh, you mean yesterday. I'm saying it might not be E-1 now. I'm really not Joseph's partner!

[EFHW]

I just don’t see any way that someone jumps the gun to claim mayor when we hadn’t even finished discussing the wisdom of doing so making a mistake with their role. It seems far more likely it was either a plot and/or a lie.

PPe 2

Joseph would.

[Joseph2302]

It says at start of day that Swowl saved Dylan by being his bodyguard.

Oh, that's odd (based on what I posted above about the fake claims)

[Joseph2302]

I just don’t see any way that someone jumps the gun to claim mayor when we hadn’t even finished discussing the wisdom of doing so making a mistake with their role. It seems far more likely it was either a plot and/or a lie.

PPe 2

Joseph would.

1. Joseph is an idiot
2. Joseph is an idiot who for some reason thought he was the mayor, despite the role PM saying otherwise

[Joseph2302]

I think everyone except scolapasta has posted. I will hammer once scolapasta has had a chance to post.

Dylan might have been roleblocked.

Joseph VT  makes more sense than scum.

From my perspective, Dylan wasn't roleblocked N0/D1 (as him having 2 votes makes the maths work, with me having 1 vote)
And yes me as VT is correct

[WestCoastDidds]

I think we should all massclaim. I'll start: I'm the SK

Or with the kind of roles in this set-up, you're just as likely to be an anti-SK, or insane-SK, or whatever, without knowing it.
What is the opposite of serial killer? You win if you are the first to die?

Sure doesn’t seem to be any doubt here

Insane SK assumes the existence of a sane SK. Also, I claim SK.

Hey Joseph, got any useful remarks on the game? Joth, for example, already talked enough to get a read on him.

Well I've been thinking about claiming, so maybe I'll do it:
I'm a mayor (or possibly a drunk)

[WestCoastDidds]

I think we should all massclaim. I'll start: I'm the SK

Or with the kind of roles in this set-up, you're just as likely to be an anti-SK, or insane-SK, or whatever, without knowing it.
What is the opposite of serial killer? You win if you are the first to die?

Insane SK assumes the existence of a sane SK. Also, I claim SK.

Hey Joseph, got any useful remarks on the game? Joth, for example, already talked enough to get a read on him.

Well I've been thinking about claiming, so maybe I'll do it:
I'm a mayor (or possibly a drunk)

Quote fail

Sure doesn’t seem to be any doubt here

[faust]

I can see, possibly, very unlikely, confusing having one PR for another. But confusing VT and PR? No way.

[scolapasta]

Sorry, late night last night (went to see Hamilton musical - which was awesome).

Yeah, i agree with Faust, mixing up VT with mayor makes little sense.   But then again, neither does scum making this claim - having to know they'd be caught today. So 🤷‍♂️. I just don't get it either way.

[faust]

Vote: Joseph

[infangthief]

I think there are 4 possibilities:

1. Joseph is town, and misread/forgot his role.

2. Joseph is scum, and he / his team didn't think about the likely fallout of targetting Dylan.

3. Joseph is town, and intentionally fakeclaimed with some plan.

4. Joseph is scum, and intentionally targetted Dylan, hoping that we would get into the WIFOM of situation 2, and end up concluding 1 or 3.

PPE 1, oo, hammer?

[WestCoastDidds]

Vote: Joseph

[infangthief]

For the record, I think (4) is most likely by a long chalk. With (2) being distant second. Joseph is saying it's (1).

PPE 1

[infangthief]

Ok, so faust is 4th, Didds is 5th.
So I think one of those has to be the hammer, and mathdude's final votecount will show whether Dylan was roleblocked last night.

[Joseph2302]

I think there are 4 possibilities:

1. Joseph is town, and misread/forgot his role.

2. Joseph is scum, and he / his team didn't think about the likely fallout of targetting Dylan.

3. Joseph is town, and intentionally fakeclaimed with some plan.

4. Joseph is scum, and intentionally targetted Dylan, hoping that we would get into the WIFOM of situation 2, and end up concluding 1 or 3.

PPE 1, oo, hammer?

I wish that 3) was true
But it's 1)

[Joseph2302]

I can see, possibly, very unlikely, confusing having one PR for another. But confusing VT and PR? No way.

I was doing a though experiment about who/when people might fakeclaim as mayor/drunk
Then got distracted by real life, and when I came back to this, I obviously got confused

After the votes made no sense N1, I re-checked my role, but it was way too late then...

[Joseph2302]

I think I might go hibernate from mafia for a year again...

[Joseph2302]

But then again, neither does scum making this claim - having to know they'd be caught today. So 🤷‍♂️. I just don't get it either way.

exactly. me <> scum

[jotheonah]

If this is true, this is going to go down in forum history as the most disastrous townie mistake of all time.

No offense, Joseph.

[scolapasta]

If this is true, this is going to go down in forum history as the most disastrous townie mistake of all time.

No offense, Joseph.

On the one hand, why would Joseph be lying now? There's no Governor role so no real reprieve. On the other, why would Joseph have lied in the first place??? (yeah, I hear you, it was a mistake...)

[Joseph2302]

If this is true, this is going to go down in forum history as the most disastrous townie mistake of all time.

No offense, Joseph.

On the one hand, why would Joseph be lying now? There's no Governor role so no real reprieve. On the other, why would Joseph have lied in the first place??? (yeah, I hear you, it was a mistake...)

I'd be more incentivised to lie now (if scum) than to start with (as town)....

[jotheonah]

If this is true, this is going to go down in forum history as the most disastrous townie mistake of all time.

No offense, Joseph.

On the one hand, why would Joseph be lying now? There's no Governor role so no real reprieve. On the other, why would Joseph have lied in the first place??? (yeah, I hear you, it was a mistake...)

There's always the possibility of a troll. Or he's worried that if he admits to being scum he'll accidentally say something he shouldn't during twilight.

Maybe scum decided it was worth sacrificing Joseph to get rid of the town's mayor, and Joseph cooked up this crazy mistake defense overnight.

[Joseph2302]

If this is true, this is going to go down in forum history as the most disastrous townie mistake of all time.

No offense, Joseph.

On the one hand, why would Joseph be lying now? There's no Governor role so no real reprieve. On the other, why would Joseph have lied in the first place??? (yeah, I hear you, it was a mistake...)

There's always the possibility of a troll. Or he's worried that if he admits to being scum he'll accidentally say something he shouldn't during twilight.

Maybe scum decided it was worth sacrificing Joseph to get rid of the town's mayor, and Joseph cooked up this crazy mistake defense overnight.

If only I were that clever.... and also scum

[mathdude]

I think everyone except scolapasta has posted. I will hammer once scolapasta has had a chance to post.

Dylan might have been roleblocked.

Joseph VT  makes more sense than scum.

Roleblocked on Night 0?

math, was anyone able to use role powers on Night 0?

No, but I've often wondered in games I've played in the past if this could have been a possibility - could definitely make games like this one more interesting!

[mathdude]

Thread locked.

The mice decided to go out and play with the hammer again in the morning.  One thing led to another, and someone got smacked.  Before they knew it, it was already night.

Vote: Joseph

End of day post coming shortly.

[mathdude]

With everything moving so lively and quick, I knew in a moment this must be a trick.  More rapid than eagles, accusation and votes came, an exile was decided - Joseph2302 was his name.

Joseph2302 has been exiled and was Mickey Mouse, a Vanilla Townie

Vote "count" 2.final
Votes for Joseph2302: Dylan32, faust, gkrieg13, jotheonah
Not voting: EFHW, infangthief, Joseph2302, scolapasta, WestCoastDidds
(with 9 alive, it took 5 votes to exile)

Night 2 starts now and ends at 4:06pm EST on Sunday, December 12th.  Actions must be submitted by that time.

[mathdude]

Now Pinky! now Fievel! now Minnie and Jerry!  On Nynaeve! on Reepicheep! and on, Mrs. Brisby!  To the top of the porch! to the top of the wall!  Now dash away! did you just see? gkrieg13 did fall!

gkrieg has been killed and was Stewart Little, a town-aligned RoleCop.

Vote "count" 3.0
Not voting: Dylan32, EFHW, faust, infangthief, jotheonah, scolapasta, WestCoastDidds
(with 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to exile)

Day 3 starts now and ends at 6:41pm EST on Sunday, December 19th.

THREAD UNLOCKED

[Dylan32]

Everything is stupid. I wish I had been able to check in after Joseph claimed the mistake and before the hammer, because honestly that did make more sense than scum!Joseph both fakeclaiming and then targeting me... but then that's probably just wishful thinking with hindsight.

Scum apparently has a rolecop and hit gkrieg N1, because I really didn't expect to be alive today, and gkrieg seems like a really random target otherwise.

[WestCoastDidds]

Vanilla! He was vanilla! Egads! Joseph!

[WestCoastDidds]

I honestly have no idea how someone makes that mistake.

[WestCoastDidds]

Everything is stupid. I wish I had been able to check in after Joseph claimed the mistake and before the hammer, because honestly that did make more sense than scum!Joseph both fakeclaiming and then targeting me... but then that's probably just wishful thinking with hindsight.

Scum apparently has a rolecop and hit gkrieg N1, because I really didn't expect to be alive today, and gkrieg seems like a really random target otherwise.

Maybe you were doctored? And Gkrieg was a vig mistake? Otherwise, yes…very rando

[EFHW]

I'm sure that's what happened 

I think not everyone has posted yet, so I will allow for some more time, but consider this my

intent to hammer

faust, at this point we didn't know for sure it was E-1, but you sound here like you are sure of it. How is that?

[EFHW]

I honestly have no idea how someone makes that mistake.

I can see it. He imagined so well he lost track of that crucial bit of reality.

[Dylan32]

I'm sure that's what happened 

I think not everyone has posted yet, so I will allow for some more time, but consider this my

intent to hammer

faust, at this point we didn't know for sure it was E-1, but you sound here like you are sure of it. How is that?

I mean, we did know it though. Scum tried to kill me, and we knew there was one mayor and one liar (intentional or otherwise) between Joseph and I from the D1 wagon, so we knew I had 2 votes on Joseph, and the rest was just counting.

[Dylan32]

Everything is stupid. I wish I had been able to check in after Joseph claimed the mistake and before the hammer, because honestly that did make more sense than scum!Joseph both fakeclaiming and then targeting me... but then that's probably just wishful thinking with hindsight.

Scum apparently has a rolecop and hit gkrieg N1, because I really didn't expect to be alive today, and gkrieg seems like a really random target otherwise.

Maybe you were doctored? And Gkrieg was a vig mistake? Otherwise, yes…very rando

This is where Occam's razor cuts in a bit. One scenario involves 2 town PR's including a doc after a bodyguard already flipped, the other is just scum figured out a PR to kill rather than the IC.

[Dylan32]

The fact I could see any of 4 of the 6 of you being scum here is frustrating.

[EFHW]

I'm sure that's what happened 

I think not everyone has posted yet, so I will allow for some more time, but consider this my

intent to hammer

faust, at this point we didn't know for sure it was E-1, but you sound here like you are sure of it. How is that?

I mean, we did know it though. Scum tried to kill me, and we knew there was one mayor and one liar (intentional or otherwise) between Joseph and I from the D1 wagon, so we knew I had 2 votes on Joseph, and the rest was just counting.

No, you could have been roleblocked.

[EFHW]

4?

[faust]

I'm sure that's what happened 

I think not everyone has posted yet, so I will allow for some more time, but consider this my

intent to hammer

faust, at this point we didn't know for sure it was E-1, but you sound here like you are sure of it. How is that?

I mean, we did know it though. Scum tried to kill me, and we knew there was one mayor and one liar (intentional or otherwise) between Joseph and I from the D1 wagon, so we knew I had 2 votes on Joseph, and the rest was just counting.

No, you could have been roleblocked.

I was pretty sure scum wouldn't kill and roleblock the same person...

[faust]

Anyways this is likely XyLo, so we should do some claiming. Dylan, do you want to make a claiming order?

[faust]

The only good thing about this game is that for once i managed to not misexile gkrieg!

[faust]

Frustratingly, there is no breadcrumbing from gkrieg that I can see D2. Of course it's very much possible that he checked one of Dylan/Joseph, and that result was rendered obsolete.

[infangthief]

I'm sure that's what happened 

I think not everyone has posted yet, so I will allow for some more time, but consider this my

intent to hammer

faust, at this point we didn't know for sure it was E-1, but you sound here like you are sure of it. How is that?

I mean, we did know it though. Scum tried to kill me, and we knew there was one mayor and one liar (intentional or otherwise) between Joseph and I from the D1 wagon, so we knew I had 2 votes on Joseph, and the rest was just counting.

No, you could have been roleblocked.

I was pretty sure scum wouldn't kill and roleblock the same person...

Stranger things have happened.

[faust]

I mean, true, but it's not like it would have been the end of the world if my vote hadn't turned out to be the hammer. It was most likely the hammer, and so it was the right thing to post intent. Not sure why people are getting hung up on this.

[faust]

Would it be possible for votes in vote count to be displayed in the order they were placed?

i.e. the final D2 vote count reads:

Votes for Joseph2302: Dylan32, faust, gkrieg13, jotheonah

but my vote was the hammer, and I'm listed second.

[infangthief]

Scum apparently has a rolecop and hit gkrieg N1, because I really didn't expect to be alive today, and gkrieg seems like a really random target otherwise.

This was an even night, so they might have been taking a chance at hitting the vig?

[infangthief]

Would it be possible for votes in vote count to be displayed in the order they were placed?

i.e. the final D2 vote count reads:

Votes for Joseph2302: Dylan32, faust, gkrieg13, jotheonah

but my vote was the hammer, and I'm listed second.

So long as we always vote in alphabetical order we'll be fine.

[faust]

Scum apparently has a rolecop and hit gkrieg N1, because I really didn't expect to be alive today, and gkrieg seems like a really random target otherwise.

This was an even night, so they might have been taking a chance at hitting the vig?

Why though? The vig shot would still go through, so they're not winning anything.

[infangthief]

Scum apparently has a rolecop and hit gkrieg N1, because I really didn't expect to be alive today, and gkrieg seems like a really random target otherwise.

This was an even night, so they might have been taking a chance at hitting the vig?

Why though? The vig shot would still go through, so they're not winning anything.

oh ok. So actually roleblocking a vig is better than killing them. Weird.

[infangthief]

Anyways this is likely XyLo, so we should do some claiming. Dylan, do you want to make a claiming order?

So I've never done claiming before. Like, it's bad if PRs have to say stuff when they know it would be better to hold back and not make the info available to scum. But we think that's outweighed by the advantage of forcing scum into fakeclaiming stuff? Is that the idea, more or less?

[faust]

Anyways this is likely XyLo, so we should do some claiming. Dylan, do you want to make a claiming order?

So I've never done claiming before. Like, it's bad if PRs have to say stuff when they know it would be better to hold back and not make the info available to scum. But we think that's outweighed by the advantage of forcing scum into fakeclaiming stuff? Is that the idea, more or less?

The idea is rather that we need to exile scum today or we lose, and so we should put all the information we have on the table so we can make the decision that most likely doesn't lose us the game.

[EFHW]

I mean, true, but it's not like it would have been the end of the world if my vote hadn't turned out to be the hammer. It was most likely the hammer, and so it was the right thing to post intent. Not sure why people are getting hung up on this.

It could have been a scumslip, revealing that you knew for a fact that Dylan had not been blocked.

[faust]

I mean, true, but it's not like it would have been the end of the world if my vote hadn't turned out to be the hammer. It was most likely the hammer, and so it was the right thing to post intent. Not sure why people are getting hung up on this.

It could have been a scumslip, revealing that you knew for a fact that Dylan had not been blocked.

For someone who once voted for someone just for making a scumslip argument you seem to give them an awful amount of consideration.

[faust]

That could probably have been phrased better. Oh well.

[EFHW]

I mean, true, but it's not like it would have been the end of the world if my vote hadn't turned out to be the hammer. It was most likely the hammer, and so it was the right thing to post intent. Not sure why people are getting hung up on this.

It could have been a scumslip, revealing that you knew for a fact that Dylan had not been blocked.

For someone who once voted for someone just for making a scumslip argument you seem to give them an awful amount of consideration.

Of course I consider them. And you don't? My fang vote wasn't because he invoked the scumslip concept.

[faust]

I mean, true, but it's not like it would have been the end of the world if my vote hadn't turned out to be the hammer. It was most likely the hammer, and so it was the right thing to post intent. Not sure why people are getting hung up on this.

It could have been a scumslip, revealing that you knew for a fact that Dylan had not been blocked.

For someone who once voted for someone just for making a scumslip argument you seem to give them an awful amount of consideration.

Of course I consider them. And you don't? My fang vote wasn't because he invoked the scumslip concept.

I don't really, no. 90% of the time they are a distraction. I think it's a very simplistic form of scumhunting, looking at a single post to justify a read. It's better to consider the whole context, and that often gets swept under the rug in favor of a binary "I do/do not think that this post was a scumslip".

[jotheonah]

I agree on the mass claim.

I am like super angry about yesterday. I don’t like it when people play massively against their win con. I know it wasn’t on purpose but geez louise. Scum has just gotten to sit back this game while we defeat ourselves.

[mathdude]

Would it be possible for votes in vote count to be displayed in the order they were placed?

i.e. the final D2 vote count reads:

Votes for Joseph2302: Dylan32, faust, gkrieg13, jotheonah

but my vote was the hammer, and I'm listed second.

I know this is typically how it is done. I wasn't intending to do any vote counts this game, but was convinced during setup to include them. I have generally posted them in alphabetical order (I think D1 I had no logical order)... I'm just working back and forth between mobile and laptop, and it's hard to track them this way. For D3, I'll try to include them in vote order.

[faust]

I have a guess for the scum team.

But, it'll have to wait until after claims.

[WestCoastDidds]

I agree that it is super frustrating Joth. I still can't really figure out how that kind of mental fog happens, although I appreciate EFHW saying that it is, indeed, a possibility. I don't really even know that we have any game to consider from D2.

[WestCoastDidds]

Completely off topic, but important.  I just submitted my final grades for the fall semester!  DONE! DONE! DONE! I still have a ton of work to do to get ready for the spring, but the dance of DONE is a special time regardless.

While we are waiting for Dylan to set the order, feel free to do the dance of DONE in solidarity.

[Dylan32]

I had my own dance of DONE moment last month with a work thing, so congrats Didds!

Massclaim order:
fang
faust
Didds
EFHW
joth
scola

Might be the first time I've ever had to set one of these, and I've probably got it all wrong, but I can take comfort in the fact that even if I get literally everything wrong for the rest of the game, none of those mistakes will be the ones that are remembered from this game lol

[EFHW]

Might be the first time I've ever had to set one of these, and I've probably got it all wrong, but I can take comfort in the fact that even if I get literally everything wrong for the rest of the game, none of those mistakes will be the ones that are remembered from this game lol

That is reassuring!

[infangthief]

Right. Claimy claimy.

I'm a cop.
Night 1 I investigated Joseph and got result Town. So I know I'm not insane.
Night 2 I investigated EFHW but got no result (blocked).

[jotheonah]

Night 1 I investigated Joseph and got result Town. So I know I'm not insane.

akdfghukaljdfh eLJKN

YOU DIDN'T THINK THAT WAS MAYBE WORTH MENTIONING YESTERDAY?

vote: infangthief

[infangthief]

Ah, the wrath of joth.

Cop vs Insane cop. I'm assuming the design is they're each equally likely. So a single result is meaningless, unless that person dies.

[faust]

Night 1 I investigated Joseph and got result Town. So I know I'm not insane.

akdfghukaljdfh eLJKN

YOU DIDN'T THINK THAT WAS MAYBE WORTH MENTIONING YESTERDAY?

vote: infangthief

unvote now.

As fang said, he didn't know anything during D2 since Cops can be insane. though he could have phrased this more clearly.

[infangthief]

Yes, would you mind unvoting.

[faust]

I'm a VT.

[jotheonah]

Night 1 I investigated Joseph and got result Town. So I know I'm not insane.

akdfghukaljdfh eLJKN

YOU DIDN'T THINK THAT WAS MAYBE WORTH MENTIONING YESTERDAY?

vote: infangthief

unvote now.

You're not my supervisor!

Unvote

[faust]

Yes, would you mind unvoting.

Though it would be ironic if the game was lost due to a misplay from joth 

[jotheonah]

Yes, would you mind unvoting.

Though it would be ironic if the game was lost due to a misplay from joth 

No misplay, that was a deadly serious vote. But I will wait for the rest of the claims before I say more.

[faust]

Didds is up.

[infangthief]

Yes, would you mind unvoting.

Though it would be ironic if the game was lost due to a misplay from joth 

If he's scum it might not be a misplay.

[faust]

Yes, would you mind unvoting.

Though it would be ironic if the game was lost due to a misplay from joth 

If he's scum it might not be a misplay.

I'm not sure why people always feel compelled to make this type of comment.

[scolapasta]

Catching up now... 

The fact I could see any of 4 of the 6 of you being scum here is frustrating.

I hear you. I don't think I have any solid reads this game, just keeping seeing little things everewhere that could be scummy, but are most likely innocent (except for the one that isn't!). Some examples:

4?

This feels like it could be scum trying to get more detail on who the IC thinks is town...

Anyways this is likely XyLo, so we should do some claiming. Dylan, do you want to make a claiming order?

mass claiming definitely makes sense. But it also seems obvious, so could this be a scum!faust trying to grt towen cred by suggesting it before someone else does? Especially considering, scum now knows that a (likely the?) role cop is dead, so fake claims are more safe?

I agree on the mass claim.

I am like super angry about yesterday. I don’t like it when people play massively against their win con. I know it wasn’t on purpose but geez louise. Scum has just gotten to sit back this game while we defeat ourselves.

I think we can all agree we're angry (well, I guess scum wouldn't be) about what happened, but this feels a little over the top in level of outrage. Also, technically it was D1 I'm more angry about, not yesterday. I do think D2 went surprisingly quick, though, and merits a re read through.

joth, did you mean D1 or D2?

I mean, true, but it's not like it would have been the end of the world if my vote hadn't turned out to be the hammer. It was most likely the hammer, and so it was the right thing to post intent. Not sure why people are getting hung up on this.

It could have been a scumslip, revealing that you knew for a fact that Dylan had not been blocked.

For someone who once voted for someone just for making a scumslip argument you seem to give them an awful amount of consideration.

Of course I consider them. And you don't? My fang vote wasn't because he invoked the scumslip concept.

I don't really, no. 90% of the time they are a distraction. I think it's a very simplistic form of scumhunting, looking at a single post to justify a read. It's better to consider the whole context, and that often gets swept under the rug in favor of a binary "I do/do not think that this post was a scumslip".

I hope this doesn't open up a can of worms into a big discussion on this - since we shouldn't waste our day on it, but I have to disagree with faust here. Sure there are superficial accused scumslips and those are often useless. BUT there's a case to be made for scumslips that are when scum post something which they know to be 100% certain, but town would not actually know that. Those do happen and are very useful.

I had my own dance of DONE moment last month with a work thing, so congrats Didds!

Massclaim order:
fang
faust
Didds
EFHW
joth
scola

Might be the first time I've ever had to set one of these, and I've probably got it all wrong, but I can take comfort in the fact that even if I get literally everything wrong for the rest of the game, none of those mistakes will be the ones that are remembered from this game lol

I'm curious, why do we always ask the IC to come up with the list? especially today, when it's still very early, it would have been useful (to me, at least) to see what order others put their claim list in. In fact, by having Dylan do it, it gives us a sense of his reads which I think we'd be better off if they weren't revealed (see my EFHW quote from above, as well).



ppe a lot

[jotheonah]

I'm annoyed at Dillan's play D1, which resulted in a disastrous day 2. So both I guess.

[scolapasta]

Night 1 I investigated Joseph and got result Town. So I know I'm not insane.

akdfghukaljdfh eLJKN

YOU DIDN'T THINK THAT WAS MAYBE WORTH MENTIONING YESTERDAY?

vote: infangthief

unvote now.

As fang said, he didn't know anything during D2 since Cops can be insane. though he could have phrased this more clearly.

This is towny, since town!joth's vote on town!fang risks a quick exile.

On D2, I only see one post from fang from day start to exile:

There could be two mayors and a drunk on the wagon.

I mean, technically possible. If there is another drunkmayor on the wagon, you pretty much have to claim now, and if you don't it's a scum claim later.

Well joth would have claimed by now, and both fang and me have already claimed non-Mayor.

<checks PM> No still not mayor.

So, er, Joseph, why did you target Dylan?

Um, what does it even mean for Joseph to target Dylan in this context? Or is this assuming Joseph was scum? While having a town result on him?

[jotheonah]

Night 1 I investigated Joseph and got result Town. So I know I'm not insane.

akdfghukaljdfh eLJKN

YOU DIDN'T THINK THAT WAS MAYBE WORTH MENTIONING YESTERDAY?

vote: infangthief

unvote now.

As fang said, he didn't know anything during D2 since Cops can be insane. though he could have phrased this more clearly.

It's still an extremely convenient claim in like three different ways.

[scolapasta]

I'm annoyed at Dillan's play D1, which resulted in a disastrous day 2. So both I guess.

at Dylan? See this is the kind of "scumslip" that could just as easily be not a mistake.

[faust]

BUT there's a case to be made for scumslips that are when scum post something which they know to be 100% certain, but town would not actually know that. Those do happen and are very useful.

[citation needed]

[faust]

I'm annoyed at Dillan's play D1, which resulted in a disastrous day 2. So both I guess.

at Dylan? See this is the kind of "scumslip" that could just as easily be not a mistake.

What is the supposed scumslip here?

[faust]

I'm curious, why do we always ask the IC to come up with the list? especially today, when it's still very early, it would have been useful (to me, at least) to see what order others put their claim list in. In fact, by having Dylan do it, it gives us a sense of his reads which I think we'd be better off if they weren't revealed (see my EFHW quote from above, as well).

We do it because it's the only way to get anyone to agree on anything.

Also at this point I don't see any advantage in Dylan's reads not being revealed.

[WestCoastDidds]

Sorry! Dance of done is distracting!

I’m just a VT. Had I been something useful I’d have intimated that when I was gonna get exiled D1.

[scolapasta]

BUT there's a case to be made for scumslips that are when scum post something which they know to be 100% certain, but town would not actually know that. Those do happen and are very useful.

[citation needed]

I had a big one in BSG S1, though luckily for me at the time, no one caught it.

I'm annoyed at Dillan's play D1, which resulted in a disastrous day 2. So both I guess.

at Dylan? See this is the kind of "scumslip" that could just as easily be not a mistake.

What is the supposed scumslip here?

Dylan, instead of Joseph. Though I see now, I mistyped an extra "not". It should read "that could just as easily be a mistake.", i.e. this feels like joth just accidentally mistyped to wrong name.

I'm curious, why do we always ask the IC to come up with the list? especially today, when it's still very early, it would have been useful (to me, at least) to see what order others put their claim list in. In fact, by having Dylan do it, it gives us a sense of his reads which I think we'd be better off if they weren't revealed (see my EFHW quote from above, as well).

We do it because it's the only way to get anyone to agree on anything.

Also at this point I don't see any advantage in Dylan's reads not being revealed.

I disagree - especially in this case where our IC has 2 votes.  You neglect my argument for wanting to learn about others' chosen order though. Do you not agree that could be useful data?

[EFHW]

I'm the even night vig. I didn't shoot last night, given that a miss would lose the game.

[EFHW]

joth is up now

[faust]

I'm annoyed at Dillan's play D1, which resulted in a disastrous day 2. So both I guess.

at Dylan? See this is the kind of "scumslip" that could just as easily be not a mistake.

What is the supposed scumslip here?

Dylan, instead of Joseph. Though I see now, I mistyped an extra "not". It should read "that could just as easily be a mistake.", i.e. this feels like joth just accidentally mistyped to wrong name.

How would that be a scumslip?

I'm curious, why do we always ask the IC to come up with the list? especially today, when it's still very early, it would have been useful (to me, at least) to see what order others put their claim list in. In fact, by having Dylan do it, it gives us a sense of his reads which I think we'd be better off if they weren't revealed (see my EFHW quote from above, as well).

We do it because it's the only way to get anyone to agree on anything.

Also at this point I don't see any advantage in Dylan's reads not being revealed.

I disagree - especially in this case where our IC has 2 votes.  You neglect my argument for wanting to learn about others' chosen order though. Do you not agree that could be useful data?

I don't see how it's useful. We are going to talk about everyone's reads once the claims are through anyways.

[jotheonah]

VT, baby

got no powers but my vote and my in-your-face attitude

[faust]

Alright let's finish this quickly, it's getting awfully quiet in here.

[faust]

I swear I'm going to vote for scola if he hasn't posted when I wake up tomorrow.

[scolapasta]

Sorry all for the delay - I had a friend last night ask me last night if I (and some other friends) could help his father pack up his house for moving - if any of you have ever helped a parent pack, you can understand it's an all day affair!

Back home now with weary arms and tired legs and can focus back on the game.

So, I am a Roleblocker. And while I did block fang, it was on N1. (on N2 I blocked faust)

I see no reason not to vote fang now, but I'll wait just in case I'm missing something.

[EFHW]

So cop, vig, rolecop, bodyguard and roleblocker?

[EFHW]

And mayor. Either fang or scola has to be lying. The rest are either confirmed or me.

[EFHW]

scola, why did you block faust?

[Dylan32]

So there's a moment where you have to kind of trust your gut, especially when there's decent reasoning that backs it up, even if it's not ironclad proof. When it's the first person on the claim list vs the last and those two positions did correspond to my reads, I feel like I have to ride or die with it a little bit. Also, if we have a town cop AND a rolecop, we need to have a little conversation with our mod about balancing a game imho. Fang had to just look at the town roles, figure that cop probably wouldn't directly get counterclaimed after gkrieg's flip and just went with it. Remove gkrieg from the game, and I think it would have been a reasonable enough claim given the possibility of insane, but I just don't see town having both of those given the options for scum.

Of course, being the last person on the IC's list could have given scola the courage to counterclaim given scum might only need one more exile to win, and that's honestly about the only thing that's keeping me from just voting right now.

[jotheonah]

Fang’s claim is a perfect scum claim.

It says “I’m useful so keep me alive, but do to particular circumstances I’ve been useless so far.”

“The person who’s already dead” is a go-to fake investigative target for a fake claiming cop
And “No result, I must have been role-blocked” is another favorite.

[scolapasta]

scola, why did you block faust?

Was my scummiest read N2. Not a strong read, but going back to reread D2, it just faust's hammer was (obviously) critical in the quick exile of Joseph. It felt like it could be scum trying to get the exile across before we second guessed ourselves or at least before we had time to even really discuss anything else.

In hindsight, I should've stayed with my D1 scummiest read.

[faust]

I see no reason not to vote fang now, but I'll wait just in case I'm missing something.

You are missing that scum could have blocked you N1 and fang N2.

[faust]

Fang’s claim is a perfect scum claim.

It says “I’m useful so keep me alive, but do to particular circumstances I’ve been useless so far.”

“The person who’s already dead” is a go-to fake investigative target for a fake claiming cop
And “No result, I must have been role-blocked” is another favorite.

That's bullshit.

It's dangerous to fakeclaim Cop first because there's probably not 2 of them, and he might get himself trapped in a 1v1. So it's definitely not a great claim.

Investigating Joseph makes perfect sense for a Cop who doesn't know his sanity. Joseph is a player whose alignment will be revealed soon, and then the Cop can be useful from there. It makes sense to fakeclaim investigating a dead player when you don#t want to fake a result, but due to his sanity fang wouldn't actually have claimed a useful result.

Claiming to be blocked is also dangerous because presumably scum blocked someone last Night and if that player knows about it then fang is toast.

[faust]

It's also worth noting that we have a strong indication that scum
a) Role-copped
b) killed

during N1. So if scola tells the truth and fang was blocked, that doesn't leave many options for what scum he could be.

[faust]

Here's what I see:

There is at most scum between scola and fang, probably - but not necessarily - exactly one.

There are 3 scum overall (I don't think with this many claimed PRs anyone assumes we're in a 2-scum setup), and 7 players alive. We know Dylan is town. That means we actually have better odds of hitting scum outside of scola/fang. And that way we leave one useful PR alive that might just be able to confirm themselves.

[faust]

I promised to reveal my guess for the scum team. It's *drumroll*

EFHW, Didds, scola.

If you want to see a prefectly convenient fakeclaim, look no further than EFHW's vig claim.

I don't think that from a game-design POV, it makes sense to include a vig here. We start at odd parity, and there is very little chance of ever reaching even parity (only if scola is telling the truth and successfully blocks a nightkill). So arguably it's never good to use the vig. But including a vig that won't get used just doesn't make any sense.

[faust]

Please Dylan consider these arguments. I don't think it's best to exile either scola or fang, and furthermore I think fang is town and that exile will be our loss.

[faust]

It is infuriating that the IC and my townread are now determined to exile my other townread 

[infangthief]

So, I am a Roleblocker. And while I did block fang, it was on N1. (on N2 I blocked faust)

I see no reason not to vote fang now, but I'll wait just in case I'm missing something.

Well that's quite the claim. And I guess it makes sense for scola to set up a 1v1 here if scum only need one more exile to win.

I see no reason not to vote scola now, and I'm 100% sure I'm not missing anything.

vote: scolapasta

[infangthief]

I see no reason not to vote fang now, but I'll wait just in case I'm missing something.

You are missing that scum could have blocked you N1 and fang N2.

If a roleblocker is roleblocked their block would still work:

4. Actions with instructions that do not specify a game state will be resolved in the order they are received.
Night actions will be resolved in the following order: roleblocks, protections, investigations, kills. Actions from the same category happen simultaneously (e.g. RB'ing a RB'er doesn't do anything, if you kill a killer their kill will still go through).

[infangthief]

I promised to reveal my guess for the scum team. It's *drumroll*

EFHW, Didds, scola.

If you want to see a prefectly convenient fakeclaim, look no further than EFHW's vig claim.

I don't think that from a game-design POV, it makes sense to include a vig here. We start at odd parity, and there is very little chance of ever reaching even parity (only if scola is telling the truth and successfully blocks a nightkill). So arguably it's never good to use the vig. But including a vig that won't get used just doesn't make any sense.

It could also be a perfectly safe fakeclaim, with her position in the claiming order; if EFHW is scum and joth isn't, then she just needs to have rolecopped joth in order to know there isn't a vig. If joth is scum then it's even easier and scum are laughing that Dylan put them all at the end of his list.

[faust]

I see no reason not to vote fang now, but I'll wait just in case I'm missing something.

You are missing that scum could have blocked you N1 and fang N2.

If a roleblocker is roleblocked their block would still work:

4. Actions with instructions that do not specify a game state will be resolved in the order they are received.
Night actions will be resolved in the following order: roleblocks, protections, investigations, kills. Actions from the same category happen simultaneously (e.g. RB'ing a RB'er doesn't do anything, if you kill a killer their kill will still go through).

Oh. Well that is a weird ruling. I guess it's definitely one scum then, but I still prefer to exile elsewhere.

[jotheonah]

Fang’s claim is a perfect scum claim.

It says “I’m useful so keep me alive, but do to particular circumstances I’ve been useless so far.”

“The person who’s already dead” is a go-to fake investigative target for a fake claiming cop
And “No result, I must have been role-blocked” is another favorite.

That's bullshit.

It's dangerous to fakeclaim Cop first because there's probably not 2 of them, and he might get himself trapped in a 1v1. So it's definitely not a great claim.

Investigating Joseph makes perfect sense for a Cop who doesn't know his sanity. Joseph is a player whose alignment will be revealed soon, and then the Cop can be useful from there. It makes sense to fakeclaim investigating a dead player when you don#t want to fake a result, but due to his sanity fang wouldn't actually have claimed a useful result.

Claiming to be blocked is also dangerous because presumably scum blocked someone last Night and if that player knows about it then fang is toast.

I’ll grant that investigating Joseph makes sense for town!fang, though that doesn’t change the fact that claiming to have investigated Joseph makes even more sense for scum!fang.

Your other two points are just wrong though. We’re in a closed setup. There’s a huge difference between claiming cop when you know there’s only one and claiming cop when you think there’s probably only one. The 1v1 is easily skirted just by throwing up some smoke around game design WIFOM.

And as for the roleblock, scum’s in control of that. Maybe they blocked Dylan and the claim is designed to make us think we still have a double-voter. There’s lots of ways they could have worked it out.

But I’m tunneling and I haven’t really given scola’s claim a good read/think.

As for Faust’s argument that we should exile outside of the fishy claims, I get it. I understand the math. And I disagree. I think we should look at pool where the evidence is strongest, not hide behind probability, which is often misleading in a hidden information game.

[jotheonah]

Why does scum!scola lie about blocking fang N1? Just to force the 1v1? Feels a little loose.

[faust]

Why does scum!scola lie about blocking fang N1? Just to force the 1v1? Feels a little loose.

I mean, it's a 1v1 against the strongest PR we have left. If fang lived through today, scum would need to worry about roleblocking him, and we might even exile their Roleblocker, in which case they would need to kill him, which they really don't want to be doing considering how widely scumread he is.

[WestCoastDidds]

Of the claims, EFHW is the most head-scratching to me. It has no utility and no verifiability. Has Fang ever been scum before? His claim didn’t have a scrambly sense to it, especially having to go first. Scola’s role seems like the most powerful. So, if we have to choose between Scola and fang, I’d probably choose fang, but I haven’t thought through that much. But EFHW over all of those. Or faust, because dude is steering this game right now and if the team is faust, fang, and Joth well….that all checks out

PPe:3

I’m so working on spring syllabi today. And it’s super weird planning for April and May when it feel like the last year was 5 million months long

[faust]

Your other two points are just wrong though. We’re in a closed setup. There’s a huge difference between claiming cop when you know there’s only one and claiming cop when you think there’s probably only one. The 1v1 is easily skirted just by throwing up some smoke around game design WIFOM.

We're in a semi-open setup. Or semi-closed or whatever you want to call it. We know that scum doesn't have enough potential PRs to mitigate 2 Cops AND a Rolecop AND a doublevoting IC.

And as for the roleblock, scum’s in control of that. Maybe they blocked Dylan and the claim is designed to make us think we still have a double-voter.

That's obviously stupid for scum to do, because fang would be caught in a lie as soon as we see the final vote count. Unfortunately this argument speaks to the general level of thought you are giving our situation.

As for Faust’s argument that we should exile outside of the fishy claims, I get it. I understand the math. And I disagree. I think we should look at pool where the evidence is strongest, not hide behind probability, which is often misleading in a hidden information game.

Why do you think there is stronger evidence to be found with scola/fang? I think there is actually pretty strong evidence that Didds and EFHW are scum...

[faust]

Scola’s role seems like the most powerful. So, if we have to choose between Scola and fang, I’d probably choose fang, but I haven’t thought through that much.

This is a terrible argument. We don't have the luxury to misexile. Who has claimed the stronger role should have absolutely zero bearing on our decision.

[faust]

I posit to you: The case why Didds and EFHW are scumpartners!

Consider, if you will, the following point in time during D1:

Apologies for the weekend. I am kind of sort of caught up. I like efoo best for now. Back in a few hours.

Plan should happen because we need an exile anyways, and why not do it just to be 100% sure. Like decide on a wagon, then have them follow Dylans plan. No reason NOT to do it that way.


Swowl Count as of this post:
Votes for EFHW: MiX, Joth, Swowl (3)
Votes for fang: EFHW, Scolapasta (2)
votes for MiX: Joseph2302 (1)
votes for WestCoastDidds: faust, gkrieg13, infangthief (4)

not voting: Dylan32, WestCoastDidds,
(with 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to exile)

Vote: EFHW

We have competing wagons for EFHW and Didds (note that Swowl's count here is actually wrong; there's only 3 votes on Didds). What are the reactions of the two of them?

Giving Didds a daypass for that post. It goes right to the heart of the matter re this mayor situation.

EFHW hands out a daypass for nonexistent reasons.

Vote: faust

The more I think about it the more I see him contributing to conversations that distract or derail, and generally doing very little to move us forward. I’m also not fond of the way he’s buddying up to MiX.

Didds tries to start a new wagon, despite previously having expressed a scumread on EFHW.

Both are very hesitant to join on each other's wagons. Why? Because they're scumpartners! Case closed.

[faust]

Here's another argument that isn't likely to convince anyone but myself.

The N1 kill choice was super weird. Like, at the end of D1 it was clear that one of Dylan/Joseph had been lying, and to scum it was clear that both are town. What a perfect situation! Why on earth would you go out and kill either of them? You might easily hit the one who's not a Mayor, thereby confirming the other's identity and robbing yourself of a perfectly good misexile.

This, first of all, makes it clear that I was not involved in this killing decision (part 1 that will convince noone because "WIFOM"). And now from what I can gather fang and me see pretty much eye to eye on many theory questions, so I would expect him to come to the same conclusion - which implies he's not scum either. With joth I'm less sure, but the people I clash most with on theory question are definitely the ones I can most see make that choice, and that's exactly EFHW, Didds, scolapasta.

[WestCoastDidds]

Vote: faust

The more I think about it the more I see him contributing to conversations that distract or derail, and generally doing very little to move us forward. I’m also not fond of the way he’s buddying up to MiX.

Didds tries to start a new wagon, despite previously having expressed a scumread on EFHW.

Ha! I wasn’t trying to start a new wagon. I was just annoyed that you were being bossy, and at that point an EFHW wagon wasn’t happening.

[faust]

Vote: faust

The more I think about it the more I see him contributing to conversations that distract or derail, and generally doing very little to move us forward. I’m also not fond of the way he’s buddying up to MiX.

Didds tries to start a new wagon, despite previously having expressed a scumread on EFHW.

Ha! I wasn’t trying to start a new wagon. I was just annoyed that you were being bossy, and at that point an EFHW wagon wasn’t happening.

EFHW was the biggest wagon at the point of your vote lol.

[faust]

Vote: faust

The more I think about it the more I see him contributing to conversations that distract or derail, and generally doing very little to move us forward. I’m also not fond of the way he’s buddying up to MiX.

Didds tries to start a new wagon, despite previously having expressed a scumread on EFHW.

Ha! I wasn’t trying to start a new wagon. I was just annoyed that you were being bossy, and at that point an EFHW wagon wasn’t happening.

EFHW was the biggest wagon at the point of your vote lol.

(ok tied with fang, but still)

[jotheonah]

alright, I'm coming around to trusting faust here. I still disagree a bit with him on fang vs scola, but I'm starting to see the wisdom of looking elsewhere.

[faust]

Let's play "how people react to Joseph's lie". Note that scum knows that Joseph is town.

So... isn't Joseph just scum? Not voting yet in case I mathed wrong. But I think we have an  IC mayor and an almost-definite scum.

Definitely Joseph warrants a vote.

Reaction from conf!town.

Vote: Joseph

Reaction from conf!town.

Hi hi hi!

The odds of there being two mayors seems absurdly low, right? The smart money seems like - mayor, one liar.

I’m wasn’t sure why Joseph would claim, but now realize that he successfully outed the mayor with no problem.

There could be two mayors and a drunk on the wagon.

There exists a non-zero probability that scum was betting on a Modified Bodyguard to exist and tried to kill scumpartner!Dylan, I suppose. Seems like quite a stretch though.

intent to hammer

Sorry, late night last night (went to see Hamilton musical - which was awesome).

Yeah, i agree with Faust, mixing up VT with mayor makes little sense.   But then again, neither does scum making this claim - having to know they'd be caught today. So 🤷‍♂️. I just don't get it either way.

For the record, I think (4) is most likely by a long chalk. With (2) being distant second. Joseph is saying it's (1).

PPE 1

Both (4) and (2) being referred to here are options where Joseph is scum.

Can you see a pattern?

[scolapasta]

So from my side of things the math is much easier - 100% fang is lying and given there's no good town reason for it, that's a much better place for my vote than trying to suss out who of the other 4 non Dylans are scum.

Vote: fang

I'd rather not say much more about my other reads, so scum has less info in trying to figure out who I'd block tonight.

[EFHW]

I haven't read everything yet, but you must know I would have a better fakeclaim than vig! There isn't even a tracker, which makes vig a good fakeclaim sometimes. The smart scum claim here is VT.

From my rereading (looking for someone to maybe vig), I settled on faust as town. And my strongest suspicion was on scola. I seriously considered Didds, but like someone said, she is pretty free in expressing her OMGUS etc., and scum!Didds would tend to be more careful. I think fang and scola could be partners.

[EFHW]

...
Both are very hesitant to join on each other's wagons. Why? Because they're scumpartners! Case closed.

I would never hand you such a good case! Give me some credit!

[EFHW]

Of the claims, EFHW is the most head-scratching to me. It has no utility and no verifiability. ... But EFHW over all of those.

If scum!Me gave a fakeclaim that had no verifiability and no utility, that would indeed be head-scratching. My doing it as town is not my choice - I am totally against lying as town.

It does seem a bit OP that we would have a vig and all these other roles, especially when scum doesn't have much.  We'll have to ask math about that later. We don't know yet which of the 10,000 roles that have been claimed are legit, but cop + vig + bodyguard + mayor + rolecop + roleblocker seems like 2 too many roles. From my perspective, the two unverified are the cop and roleblocker. fang and scola have been fighting tooth and nail. Could it be an act? fang's case on scola was super-flimsy and scola has been relying primarily on OMGUS for his case. I'll reread them.

[faust]

Eh, I don't see fang and scola as partners at all. What is the benefit? One gets exiled and then... the other one is going to have a hard time explaining why they didn't die the next night.

Plus if they wanted to turn it into a 1v1, fang would have just claimed a result on scola.

[jotheonah]

I dislike all this setup/mod second-guessing. Many times I've run a setup and been informed afterward that everyone but me thinks it's unbalanced. We don't know anything about what math considers balanced, about the affect he expects things like unknown cop sanity to have on balance, or about the exact breakdown of scum powers. I'm unlikely to be swayed by any case that starts with "math wouldn't".

[EFHW]

Eh, I don't see fang and scola as partners at all. What is the benefit? One gets exiled and then... the other one is going to have a hard time explaining why they didn't die the next night.

Plus if they wanted to turn it into a 1v1, fang would have just claimed a result on scola.

Their both relatively new to the game. I could see them wanting to try it out. Details like you are bringing up aren't conclusive at all. When I have a chance I'll see if I can find more evidence, or counter-evidence.

[EFHW]

*They're

[WestCoastDidds]

Scola’s role seems like the most powerful. So, if we have to choose between Scola and fang, I’d probably choose fang, but I haven’t thought through that much.

This is a terrible argument. We don't have the luxury to misexile. Who has claimed the stronger role should have absolutely zero bearing on our decision.

It's not an argument. It's a thought.

[EFHW]

Scola’s role seems like the most powerful. So, if we have to choose between Scola and fang, I’d probably choose fang, but I haven’t thought through that much.

This is a terrible argument. We don't have the luxury to misexile. Who has claimed the stronger role should have absolutely zero bearing on our decision.

It's not an argument. It's a thought.

Yeah, don't be mean to my partner!   

[Dylan32]

Bold take, scum team is fang, scola, faust, with faust masterminding the 1v1 between the other two and the plan to push to exile outside the 1v1 to get the last misexile.

Ok, that's probably not likely, but from my perspective (with worse PoE than other townies), I would rather exile from the 1v1 than the 50/50 from the other set of 4. For me it's the same odds, but it's actually higher given the possibility of two scum being in scola/fang. If we exile one of those two, worst case it's a 50/50, best case it's 100% scum. Exiling from the other set of 4, worst case it's 25% scum (33% if you are town in that set), best case 50% (66% if you are town in that set [I went to abbreviate this to "66% if " with the first letter of each word of the previous parenthesis, and almost died laughing when I typed it out lol]). Anyway, I suspect exiling from the 1v1 is probably at least as good statistically for us, if not straight up better. At the very least, it's close enough that I don't think we should choose to exile from the set of 4 based solely on odds.

[Dylan32]

I dislike all this setup/mod second-guessing. Many times I've run a setup and been informed afterward that everyone but me thinks it's unbalanced. We don't know anything about what math considers balanced, about the affect he expects things like unknown cop sanity to have on balance, or about the exact breakdown of scum powers. I'm unlikely to be swayed by any case that starts with "math wouldn't".

This is fair, and I've been consciously trying to be open-minded about possibilities of what might be in the game, with the exception of assuming not two mayors earlier, which wasn't primarily balance based in my mind and more just would any mod ever do that in a non-bastard game kind of thing.

That said, I do think cop+rolecop is just less likely than rolecop+roleblocker, no matter who the mod is, as long as the mod has played like any amount of mafia in a format like this before.

[Dylan32]

Here's another argument that isn't likely to convince anyone but myself.

The N1 kill choice was super weird. Like, at the end of D1 it was clear that one of Dylan/Joseph had been lying, and to scum it was clear that both are town. What a perfect situation! Why on earth would you go out and kill either of them? You might easily hit the one who's not a Mayor, thereby confirming the other's identity and robbing yourself of a perfectly good misexile.

This, first of all, makes it clear that I was not involved in this killing decision (part 1 that will convince noone because "WIFOM"). And now from what I can gather fang and me see pretty much eye to eye on many theory questions, so I would expect him to come to the same conclusion - which implies he's not scum either. With joth I'm less sure, but the people I clash most with on theory question are definitely the ones I can most see make that choice, and that's exactly EFHW, Didds, scolapasta.

You are correct regarding the WIFOM, but that point is something I had already considered before you brought it up and was a big part of why I had lessened my suspicion of you (moved you to null rather than scummy at least), but now that you point it out and demonstrate you are aware of this it reduces how much faith I can put into that somewhat...

[Dylan32]

Ugh, I want to talk myself into scumreading faust because I can totally see this being a scum!faust game with the way he's played, but no matter how I slice it I can't get myself to justify pushing for his exile today, and if we don't get it right now it doesn't matter.

I suspect faust has just fallen for townreading based on agreement rather than actual reads or game state, because for town every human everywhere regarding everything it's a lot easier to trust someone you agree with than someone with whom you disagree or are arguing with. The only legitimate reason I can see for going scola over fang in this 1v1 is that as far as I can tell, fang did play the cop exactly the way I would expect someone to play a cop of unknown sanity in the situation we had D1. Target someone who's alignment is very likely to be confirmed one way or the other the next day at the latest without saying anything about the result until after you know your sanity and hopefully have another result. The weird thing as far as targeting choices goes (besides why shoot me N1 given the apparent lie) is why scola would have blocked fang N1 instead of one of the two people seemingly guaranteed to have scum in it. So I guess there is a case to be made for scumola.

[faust]

I suspect faust has just fallen for townreading based on agreement rather than actual reads or game state

This is a bit insulting.

[faust]

well I guess either I'm wrong or we lose... I want to say I hope I'm wrong, but that would not be entirely accurate 

Vote: Didds

at least want to do this before we're through.

[faust]

That said, I do think cop+rolecop is just less likely than rolecop+roleblocker, no matter who the mod is, as long as the mod has played like any amount of mafia in a format like this before.

I disagree. Maybe my opinion as an experienced mod holds some weight in the matter.

[infangthief]

I've had a read through scola's posts this game with my special scola-is-scum(TM) glasses.

And partnerwise, it is just 100% Didds. Especially this post:

...

Phase Two: Random other player votes with what *should* be the hammer. If exile happens, there were exactly two votes between Joseph and I, which means we had one mayor and one drunk as expected and we are IC (unless you genuinely think Joseph and I BOTH fakeclaimed, in which case, test one of us individually to make it mathematically 100%). If no exile, go to phase 3.

Phase Three: One more person votes. If the exile happens, one of us (Joseph) lied and the other (me) is drunk. If no exile, we are both drunks, and the wagon is for sure at X-1.

If you don't understand, doubt, or disagree with anything, please be specific with your questions in relation to this, because I've been sick this weekend and it's totally possible I'm just not thinking or typing as clearly as I think I am lol.

ppe 4

Plenty of posts have happened after this one, but my biggest issue is here Phase 2 (and 3). I don't know if we're really set to exile WCD (the current testee) and all this testing talk time is really hurting our focus.

So I'm fine with Phase 1, but it gets us very little info and then we need to regroup and determine who we may actually want to exile. Add in the fact of different time zones, not knowing when exactly mod will post new vote counts, this feels guaranteed to leave us scrambling at the last minute. Which is in the middle of the day for those of us in the US and may be hard to have a lot of time to read / post / vote.

So honestly, I think at this point we need to move past the testing and just try to play like a normal end of D1.

I'm happy with my current vote.

Didds is on 3 votes + Dylan at this point.
Phase 1 is where Joseph would vote for Didds to check for 2*mayor or mayor+scum.
Phase 2 is where someone else would then vote for Didds to check for mayor+drunk.
Phase 3 is where another player would then vote for Didds to check for drunk+scum.

And scola's post here is saying "happy with phase 1, but please don't do 2 or 3 on Didds".
Now that Joseph and Dylan are confirmed town we know that scum "knew" they could rule out the "+scum" options above. ("knew" in inverted commas because actually Joseph being VT this wasn't the case...)
So scolapasta "knew" that phase 1 was safe and phase 2 would cause Didds to be exiled.

Scola's the certain exile today, but sounds like others aren't on board with that. But I'm convinced enough that Didd's is also scum.
vote: Didds

[mathdude]

Vote "count" 3.1:
Votes for infangthief: scolapasta
votes for WestCoastDidds: faust, infangthief

not voting: Dylan32, EFHW, jotheonah, WestCoastDidds
(with 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to exile)

Reminder: Day 3 ends at 6:41pm EST on Sunday, December 19th

[EFHW]

scola is clearly scum, since he's been sitting on fang's wagon and there hasn't been a hammer.

vote: scola

Two of faust, joth, Didds, fang are scum. I prefer to start rather than join a wagon.

[EFHW]

@fang, in your second paragraph you say scum knew Joseph wasn't scum. But they didn't know phase 1 was safe.  He could have been a second mayor. That wasn't likely, but it undermines your Didds is scum partners with scola theory, since phase 1 risked exiling Didds.

[faust]

scola is clearly scum, since he's been sitting on fang's wagon and there hasn't been a hammer.

vote: scola

Err... how does that make sense?

If scola is town, then fang is scum. Of course scum wouldn't quickhammer scum.... your argument would only work if scola and fang were both town, which is impossible.

[EFHW]

scola is clearly scum, since he's been sitting on fang's wagon and there hasn't been a hammer.

vote: scola

Err... how does that make sense?

If scola is town, then fang is scum. Of course scum wouldn't quickhammer scum.... your argument would only work if scola and fang were both town, which is impossible.

It is possible they are both town. It's also possible they are both scum. But you are right that fang scum, scola town would also look like this, so scola isn't 100% scum.

 

[EFHW]

Town!scola should have been uneasy voting at all. He can't be 100% sure about fang.

[EFHW]

I suspect faust has just fallen for townreading based on agreement rather than actual reads or game state

This is a bit insulting.

But isn't that what you said? I don't think agreement was your only reason for townreading fang, but it did seem like a strong factor from your post.

Regarding your suspicion of me, I'm hardwired to disagree with most things in mafia. My disagreeing with you is NAI. You disagreeing with me is also NAI.

[infangthief]

Cool.
vote: scola

[faust]

scola is clearly scum, since he's been sitting on fang's wagon and there hasn't been a hammer.

vote: scola

Err... how does that make sense?

If scola is town, then fang is scum. Of course scum wouldn't quickhammer scum.... your argument would only work if scola and fang were both town, which is impossible.

It is possible they are both town. It's also possible they are both scum. But you are right that fang scum, scola town would also look like this, so scola isn't 100% scum.

Not it's not possible that they are both town. That's the whole point...

[WestCoastDidds]

Good morning!

Ugh… we/I seem to be in the throes of paranoia where every combination turns up bad for some reason or another.

But it seems like we’re voting now instead of not voting anymore?

[WestCoastDidds]

I need to get some work done, but then I’ll be able to catch up for real.

Quick takes are that I’m not fond of how faust is steering the game, and that he can vote but makes other people unvote. I trust EFHW more than I did before. I’m not sure how to resolve fang and Scola and I’m not swayed by the arguments that people are making for one over the other. And doesn’t Dylan just decide everything to do anyway?

[jotheonah]

scola is clearly scum, since he's been sitting on fang's wagon and there hasn't been a hammer.

vote: scola

Err... how does that make sense?

If scola is town, then fang is scum. Of course scum wouldn't quickhammer scum.... your argument would only work if scola and fang were both town, which is impossible.

It is possible they are both town. It's also possible they are both scum. But you are right that fang scum, scola town would also look like this, so scola isn't 100% scum.

Not it's not possible that they are both town. That's the whole point...

Hey never say never. Maybe one of them just misread their PM. Ha. ha ha.

[EFHW]

scola is clearly scum, since he's been sitting on fang's wagon and there hasn't been a hammer.

vote: scola

Err... how does that make sense?

If scola is town, then fang is scum. Of course scum wouldn't quickhammer scum.... your argument would only work if scola and fang were both town, which is impossible.

It is possible they are both town. It's also possible they are both scum. But you are right that fang scum, scola town would also look like this, so scola isn't 100% scum.

Not it's not possible that they are both town. That's the whole point...

Couldn't you, joth and Didds all be scum from my perspective?

[EFHW]

scola is clearly scum, since he's been sitting on fang's wagon and there hasn't been a hammer.

vote: scola

Err... how does that make sense?

If scola is town, then fang is scum. Of course scum wouldn't quickhammer scum.... your argument would only work if scola and fang were both town, which is impossible.

It is possible they are both town. It's also possible they are both scum. But you are right that fang scum, scola town would also look like this, so scola isn't 100% scum.

Not it's not possible that they are both town. That's the whole point...

Couldn't you, joth and Didds all be scum from my perspective?

Or are you partially agreeing with me and saying that the current vote status means they aren't both town?

[Dylan32]

I suspect faust has just fallen for townreading based on agreement rather than actual reads or game state

This is a bit insulting.

No insult intented, and EFHW is right that the comment originated from your own comment that fang agreeing with you suggests he's not scum and that the people that disagree with you are more likely to be scum. Pointing out an inherent bias that has been very thoroughly studied but researchers much more capable than myself and pushing back a bit when your own stated reasoning at the very least runs parallel to that bias even if it's not the cause is in my mind totally justified. Mafia skill, intelligence, political leanings, none of it matters; people tend to trust people/sources that agree with what they believe. It is nothing personal towards you, and in fact knowing that you're pretty darn good at this game, my expectation was that taking it as an insult, you might at least consider that possibility and make sure that you do have other grounds besides "fang and me see pretty much eye to eye on many theory questions, so I would expect him to come to the same conclusion - which implies he's not scum either." You have given other reasons, so at this point I don't think what I said is what is going on here, but at the time it was perfectly fair to at least question that.

ppe 2

[Dylan32]

scola is clearly scum, since he's been sitting on fang's wagon and there hasn't been a hammer.

vote: scola

Err... how does that make sense?

If scola is town, then fang is scum. Of course scum wouldn't quickhammer scum.... your argument would only work if scola and fang were both town, which is impossible.

It is possible they are both town. It's also possible they are both scum. But you are right that fang scum, scola town would also look like this, so scola isn't 100% scum.

Not it's not possible that they are both town. That's the whole point...

Couldn't you, joth and Didds all be scum from my perspective?

Scola and fang can't both be town because fang claimed to get a result the same night scola claimed to roleblock him, and the roleblocker can't be roleblocked, so scola's action would have for sure gone through.

[Dylan32]

I've had a read through scola's posts this game with my special scola-is-scum(TM) glasses.

And partnerwise, it is just 100% Didds. Especially this post:

...

Phase Two: Random other player votes with what *should* be the hammer. If exile happens, there were exactly two votes between Joseph and I, which means we had one mayor and one drunk as expected and we are IC (unless you genuinely think Joseph and I BOTH fakeclaimed, in which case, test one of us individually to make it mathematically 100%). If no exile, go to phase 3.

Phase Three: One more person votes. If the exile happens, one of us (Joseph) lied and the other (me) is drunk. If no exile, we are both drunks, and the wagon is for sure at X-1.

If you don't understand, doubt, or disagree with anything, please be specific with your questions in relation to this, because I've been sick this weekend and it's totally possible I'm just not thinking or typing as clearly as I think I am lol.

ppe 4

Plenty of posts have happened after this one, but my biggest issue is here Phase 2 (and 3). I don't know if we're really set to exile WCD (the current testee) and all this testing talk time is really hurting our focus.

So I'm fine with Phase 1, but it gets us very little info and then we need to regroup and determine who we may actually want to exile. Add in the fact of different time zones, not knowing when exactly mod will post new vote counts, this feels guaranteed to leave us scrambling at the last minute. Which is in the middle of the day for those of us in the US and may be hard to have a lot of time to read / post / vote.

So honestly, I think at this point we need to move past the testing and just try to play like a normal end of D1.

I'm happy with my current vote.

Didds is on 3 votes + Dylan at this point.
Phase 1 is where Joseph would vote for Didds to check for 2*mayor or mayor+scum.
Phase 2 is where someone else would then vote for Didds to check for mayor+drunk.
Phase 3 is where another player would then vote for Didds to check for drunk+scum.

And scola's post here is saying "happy with phase 1, but please don't do 2 or 3 on Didds".
Now that Joseph and Dylan are confirmed town we know that scum "knew" they could rule out the "+scum" options above. ("knew" in inverted commas because actually Joseph being VT this wasn't the case...)
So scolapasta "knew" that phase 1 was safe and phase 2 would cause Didds to be exiled.

Scola's the certain exile today, but sounds like others aren't on board with that. But I'm convinced enough that Didd's is also scum.
vote: Didds

Given how hard I had pushed against the possibility of two mayors, this actually is one of the more convincing arguments I've heard. If they thought two mayors was a real possibility like EFHW suggests, it would undermine it, but I don't think that was a possibility anyone (except maybe MiX) really thought was possible D1.

[Dylan32]

Hi hi hi!

The odds of there being two mayors seems absurdly low, right? The smart money seems like - mayor, one liar.

I’m wasn’t sure why Joseph would claim, but now realize that he successfully outed the mayor with no problem.

Consider this evidence that at least one of the potential scum in this scenario came out of N1 with the conclusion that two mayors was extremely unlikely, and that they probably discussed the options in their QT, so whoever is partnered with Didds reasonably agreed that it was very unlikely, because they might have convinced them that it was possible over the night.

[EFHW]

scola is clearly scum, since he's been sitting on fang's wagon and there hasn't been a hammer.

vote: scola

Err... how does that make sense?

If scola is town, then fang is scum. Of course scum wouldn't quickhammer scum.... your argument would only work if scola and fang were both town, which is impossible.

It is possible they are both town. It's also possible they are both scum. But you are right that fang scum, scola town would also look like this, so scola isn't 100% scum.

Not it's not possible that they are both town. That's the whole point...

Couldn't you, joth and Didds all be scum from my perspective?

Scola and fang can't both be town because fang claimed to get a result the same night scola claimed to roleblock him, and the roleblocker can't be roleblocked, so scola's action would have for sure gone through.

got it, thanks for the clarification.

[EFHW]

I'd rather not exile Didds because she might be someone's partner and that person seems like scum. We should exile that person instead.

[Dylan32]

joth and Didds. Not saying you need to vote, but I do want both of you to state which of scola and fang you think is more likely to be scum. You don't need to think they are the best exile for today; I just want everyone to be on record with their preference between the two with where things stand right now.

[jotheonah]

I'm honestly torn. fang's claim seemed really fishy, but I have to give him credit for being the first claimant -- a lot of times scum in that position will ere on the side of safety, especially in a game where they're comfortably ahead. Why not go for VT? What is his cop claim accomplishing?

His claim pinged me, but I don't have a plausible narrative for scum to make that claim in that circumstance. And faust has made some good points about the claim of being blocked being exceptionally inscrutable.

On the other hand, scola's claim strikes me as too scummy for scum. Roleblocker is such a scummy role to claim, and he had to decide to contradict fang, knowing it would force him into a 1 v 1, which, again, scum shouldn't want when they're in a strong position.

So both claims are scummy, but neither claim feels like a smart scum move.

Here's the thing. I don't think faust is scum here. And when faust isn't scum, he's usually right.

And I'm not strongly townreading Didds, which is unusual for me.

So while I'm not sure about fang vs scola on their merits, if I had to choose right now I would have to choose by proxy based on my other reads, and I'd go for scola. Or just for Didds.

[WestCoastDidds]

Hmm... okay. So, I am generally suspicious of Scola because he is being nice and chatting with me this game, any I know that is a strategy that I am susceptible to. I am everyone's buddy, but when they buddy me, it usually means that something is up! I do not like it that fang seems to be in faust's back pocket and following the leader, mostly because I do not like that faust is being imperial.
 
All that aside, I think that fang's claim, and when it occurred has a greater sense of veracity than scola's claim. Scola was obviously setting up the 1v1, and I think he was probably emboldened by being last in the IC order and leaning into the confidence. With 2 votes, your opinion matters more than anyone else. So, I would prefer Scola even though I am annoyed at fangfaust.

ppe: joth

[scolapasta]

Town!scola should have been uneasy voting at all. He can't be 100% sure about fang.

I know fang is not telling the truth (since I roleblocked him N1) and there's no good reason.

[scolapasta]

On the other hand, scola's claim strikes me as too scummy for scum. Roleblocker is such a scummy role to claim, and he had to decide to contradict fang, knowing it would force him into a 1 v 1, which, again, scum shouldn't want when they're in a strong position.

Exactly - why would I 1v1 here? scumapasta here could've just as easily claimed VT, which would create a 1vX, either fang is scum or there's a scum roleblocker hidden amongst the town's VT claims. This would've still made fang suspicious, while allowing scumapasta to stay hidden in that pool.

[scolapasta]

Here are the final vote counts from D1 and D2:

Vote "count" 1.final
Votes for EFWH: Swowl
Votes for faust: WestCoastDidds
Votes for infangthief: EFHW, gkrieg13, MiX, scolapasta
Votes for MiX: Dylan32, faust, infangthief, Joseph2302, jotheonah
(with 11 alive, it took 6 votes to exile)

Vote "count" 2.final
Votes for Joseph2302: Dylan32, faust, gkrieg13, jotheonah
Not voting: EFHW, infangthief, Joseph2302, scolapasta, WestCoastDidds
(with 9 alive, it took 5 votes to exile)

Others are usually more adept at analysis, but do we really think scum doesn't vote for exile both nights? Especially considering they knew Joseph was town, they must have discussed and wanted to make sure at least one was on Joseph's exile, in order to not be too  obvious.

(I forget who made the argument that those who hedged on Joseph's exile were scummy, but that seemed particularly weak to me)

That would mean either faust or joth should be scumpartners with fang.

[faust]

On the other hand, scola's claim strikes me as too scummy for scum. Roleblocker is such a scummy role to claim, and he had to decide to contradict fang, knowing it would force him into a 1 v 1, which, again, scum shouldn't want when they're in a strong position.

I think a lot here depends on what the scum team is. Assume scola claims VT - what then? Presumably we would not exile fang; afer all he claimed a strong PR, and we would have expected some other useful PR.

So where will we turn? fang's out, Dylan's out. For either of us, we know that we're town (or pretend to) - and I'm sure scum doesn't relish the prospect of having to go up against one of us. That does not leave many misexile options for scum. All in all, I feel like scum's position with a VT claim is more precarious than we'd think at first.

[faust]

I also wanted to add that fang was apparently the biggest scumread of the IC and scola the biggest townread, so the 1v1 we got is the safest possible 1v1 that scola could get.

[Dylan32]

I think I've made up my mind, and I really do think the exile should be between scola and fang. I'm very likely going to hold off on voting until it is actually X-1, but no guarantee.

My opinion and reasoning will be posted along with the vote, probably not before.

[jotheonah]

well I guess

vote: scolapasta

[WestCoastDidds]

That’s E-1

[WestCoastDidds]

I want to make sure everyone is fine before I hammer.

[jotheonah]

Let’s let Dylan hammer. He said he was going to post reasons and stuff.

[faust]

I wanted to say that I got nervous about the swing towards scola... but then I realized that Didds could have hammered and didn't. Which means Didds scum/scola town is not an option.

[WestCoastDidds]

Let’s let Dylan hammer. He said he was going to post reasons and stuff.

Ok!

[faust]

Right now the only possible scumteam involving fang is joth/EFHW/fang. (if me or Didds were scum with fang we would have hammered.) Just for the sake of my sanity I want to make sure that that's not the team.

...

Okay, here's a relevant votecount:

Swowl Count as of this post:
Votes for EFHW: MiX, Joth, Swowl (3)
Votes for fang: EFHW, Scolapasta (2)
votes for MiX: Joseph2302 (1)
votes for WestCoastDidds: faust, gkrieg13, infangthief (4)

joth/EFHW/fang spread over 3 wagons, that's about to be expected for a scumteam, but 2 of them bussing seems a bit excessive.

End of D1 is frustratingly inconclusive.

Vote "count" 1.final
Votes for EFWH: Swowl
Votes for faust: WestCoastDidds
Votes for infangthief: EFHW, gkrieg13, MiX, scolapasta
Votes for MiX: Dylan32, faust, infangthief, Joseph2302, jotheonah
(with 11 alive, it took 6 votes to exile)

Night 1 starts now and ends at 4:06pm EST on Thursday, December 9th.  Actions must be submitted by that time.

The only argument against the team would be that EFHW would stay on the bus for this long. But the MiX exiling went pretty quickly, and in the end EFHW actually supposrted MiX's sacrifice, even without unvoting. This post certainly seems to indicate that she did not intend to stay on fang for good:

I reread fang. His early posts are pretty fluffy, but then later he does seem to be doing scumhunting. I feel less confident about my vote, but this being D1 close to deadline, I'll stay there until find something better.

There isn't a lot to say about D2.

Night 1 I investigated Joseph and got result Town. So I know I'm not insane.

akdfghukaljdfh eLJKN

YOU DIDN'T THINK THAT WAS MAYBE WORTH MENTIONING YESTERDAY?

vote: infangthief

This reaction definitely doesn't feel like scripted scumpartner interaction, I'll say that much.

This wasn't quite as reassuring as I had hoped. joth still feels very town to me, so just based on that I'd want to say that's not the team.

[faust]

I suppose I discarded the option where fang and scola are partners; sorry EFHW. But in that case it's still fine to exile scola, so it's nothing to worry about right now.

[WestCoastDidds]

So, here’s the thing that I kept thinking about last night while I was getting ready for bed… if Scola is actually a role blocker, then he’s our very best bet for winning because he’s our only offense. Ideally, I think I’d prefer we exile one of his partners in case he’s not scum. If he is, it will be easy enough for us to exile him tomorrow.

I get that we still MUST find scum today, but I sure do like the idea that he might be able to block a NK

[faust]

So, here’s the thing that I kept thinking about last night while I was getting ready for bed… if Scola is actually a role blocker, then he’s our very best bet for winning because he’s our only offense. Ideally, I think I’d prefer we exile one of his partners in case he’s not scum. If he is, it will be easy enough for us to exile him tomorrow.

I get that we still MUST find scum today, but I sure do like the idea that he might be able to block a NK

Well, as I said, the only way scola is town is if the scum team is joth/EFHW/fang. Which of these do you propose we exile instead of scola?

[WestCoastDidds]

Or faust/EFHW/fang….

[faust]

Or faust/EFHW/fang….

If I was scum and scola town, I would have hammered and ended the game.

[WestCoastDidds]

Good point.

[WestCoastDidds]

Of those three fang > EFHW> Joth

[faust]

Of those three fang > EFHW> Joth

Do you think fang could be scola's partner?

[faust]

Of those three fang > EFHW> Joth

Do you think fang could be scola's partner?

Or to make the question more precise, do you think fang is more likely to be scola's partner than EFHW?

[WestCoastDidds]

If fang and Scola were partners, I’d don’t think would have created a 1v1. Why wouldn’t they have just gone for the win?

[WestCoastDidds]

Also, your signature makes me a little sad.

[faust]

If fang and Scola were partners, I’d don’t think would have created a 1v1. Why wouldn’t they have just gone for the win?

Yes, I agree. So why do you say we should

exile one of [scola's] partners in case he’s not scum

and then propose fang if you don't actually think he's scola's partner?

[faust]

Also, your signature makes me a little sad.

Me too, believe me 

[jotheonah]

So, here’s the thing that I kept thinking about last night while I was getting ready for bed… if Scola is actually a role blocker, then he’s our very best bet for winning because he’s our only offense. Ideally, I think I’d prefer we exile one of his partners in case he’s not scum. If he is, it will be easy enough for us to exile him tomorrow.

I get that we still MUST find scum today, but I sure do like the idea that he might be able to block a NK

This is exactly why scum!scola claims roleblocker.

And this is exactly when his partner points it out.

[scolapasta]

So, here’s the thing that I kept thinking about last night while I was getting ready for bed… if Scola is actually a role blocker, then he’s our very best bet for winning because he’s our only offense. Ideally, I think I’d prefer we exile one of his partners in case he’s not scum. If he is, it will be easy enough for us to exile him tomorrow.

I get that we still MUST find scum today, but I sure do like the idea that he might be able to block a NK

This is exactly why scum!scola claims roleblocker.

And this is exactly when his partner points it out.

This doesn't make sense to me - again if I were scum, I would just sit back in the last claim position, instead of making this risky claim. Why would I create a 1v1? Sure town!fang is powerful as a cop, but being last to claim, I know there'd be no way to protect him tonight and we could just NK him. And his results so far have been useless (I'd say conveniently useless).

And if fang and I were both scum?? Why not just claim roleblocker and say I blocked him N2 instead?

Since I know I'm town, I now know for sure the scum team is fang, EFHW, and joth (thanks for helping figure that out faust).

I think scum saw faust's loyalty to fang and figured they could all vote for me in the hopes of convincing one other town member to make the final vote.

Go back and read how the votes happened, and built up. First fang who could "safely" vote for me, because of the 1v1. Seeing as he was losing the 1v1, switches over to Didds.

EFHW votes for me with bad logic:

scola is clearly scum, since he's been sitting on fang's wagon and there hasn't been a hammer.

vote: scola

Two of faust, joth, Didds, fang are scum. I prefer to start rather than join a wagon.

At the same time breadcrumbing to her scummayes with that last line to join her.

And they do:

fang ready and willing to join back in:

Cool.
vote: scola

And then joth, very causually:

well I guess

vote: scolapasta

Go back and read some of joth's earlier posts with, what I now know for sure, is fake outrage. And now just "I guess".

Casual, subtle, and yet all they need is one town vote from faust, Didds, or Dylan (and they almost got it already from Didds)

[scolapasta]

I was happy with voting for fang as that was the closest I had to 100% before (again, no reason for him to lie as town). But thanks to scum votes, and now knowing the whole team, I'm going to switch:

Vote: EFHW

[EFHW]

I suppose I discarded the option where fang and scola are partners; sorry EFHW. But in that case it's still fine to exile scola, so it's nothing to worry about right now.

That's ok, I agree. But what about Didds?

[Dylan32]

Vote: scolapasta

So the last page did a lot to reassure me that changing my mind was the best course of action there. Faust passing up the hammer finally convinced me that he's town enough to get over my doubts for now.

The fact that after most of the discussion not one person was willing to just straight up say they preferred exiling fang to scola suggests to me that scum accepted the fact that scola was a lost cause and that they needed to distance themselves to not get caught as partners as easily. In fact the closest anyone really got to leaning fang was Didds, who--until I asked point blank--was very hesitant to commit one way or the other. Of course, one could try to argue that all of the scum team saying they are ok with exiling a person at EoL (or whatever we are technically at) means we are on town, but subjectively I've seen myself and my scum partners in past games both pile on the 3rd partner when it looks like that person is a lost cause just to avoid being easily seen as a partner.

After thinking about it more, Scola's claim reminds me so much of the time I was scum, got to the point of only needing one misexile to win, and I claimed some kind of result that would force a 1v1 against one of the scummier-looking townies, and I promptly went from being heavily townread to pretty much everyone's top scumread, and I was correctly exiled that day. Whoever pointed out that scola's claim basically chose the safest possible 1v1 target is probably right.

Re: Scola's next to last post about the wagon build up. One thing you miss by pointing out that they almost got the last vote from Didds is that joth literally told her not to vote in order to wait for the IC when I still hadn't said I was scumreading you. I said I had made up my mind but wouldn't vote until X-1. I didn't say it would be on you or that it wasn't going to be fang. If the entire scum team was on one wagon and they told the first townie to express intent to hammer not to do it, then they deserve the win.

Scola points out EFHW joining with bad logic. I actually think that very well might be a bus vote, because until I laid out very clearly why scola and fang couldn't both be town, EFHW was trying to keep that possibility alive when everyone else had seemed to already recognize that it couldn't be the case.

All the arguments about Didds being partners with scola were convincing to me, so that should be an autoexile tomorrow if the game goes that long as long as fang has a chance to post their results from the night (assuming we hit roleblocker!scola today). faust and joth are town, and I really don't think fang and scola could realistically be partners, and if they are, that's almost as bad as misreading your role pm lol. It's also ironic to me that the people I've come to believe are town are exactly the three people scola, my former biggest townread, claims is the scumteam. If I'm wrong, then at least I'm going to be wrong to an almost absurd degree.

[faust]

I suppose I discarded the option where fang and scola are partners; sorry EFHW. But in that case it's still fine to exile scola, so it's nothing to worry about right now.

That's ok, I agree. But what about Didds?

(if me or Didds were scum with fang we would have hammered.)

I have this feeling that people never properly read my posts. Then again I don't always properly read other people's posts.

[mathdude]

Thread locked.

End of day post coming shortly.

[mathdude]

As leaves that before the wild hurricane fly, when they meet clashing roleclaims, mount to the sky.  So up to the housetop, arguments to work through, with a bag full of tricks, and all opinions heard too.  And then, in a twinkling, I heard, no I saw - the prancing and pawing of a noodly mouse's paw.  As I drew in my head, and was turning around, they exiled scolapasta, all tied up and bound.

scolapasta has been exiled and was Pinky, a Roleblocker rat dressed in mouse clothing

Vote "count" 3.final
Votes for scolapasta: EFHW, infangthief, jotheonah, Dylan32
Votes for WestCoastDidds: faust
Votes for EFHW: scolapasta
Not voting: WestCoastDidds
(with 7 alive, it took 4 votes to exile)

Night 3 starts now and ends at 2:09pm EST on Sunday, December 19th.  Actions must be submitted by that time.

[mathdude]

Next morning, another was tied, from his head to his foot, and his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot.  He was marred; he was mangled; he had scars on his back.  Dylan32 had been killed, the rats had emptied out his pack!

Dylan32 has been killed and was Jerry, a town-aligned Mayor.

Vote "count" 4.0
Not voting: EFHW, faust, infangthief, jotheonah, WestCoastDidds
(with 5 alive, it takes 3 votes to exile)

Day 4 starts now and ends at 8:41pm EST on Sunday, December 26th.

THREAD UNLOCKED

[jotheonah]

I still think it’s pretty likely Didds and EFHW?

[EFHW]

I have disagree with that!

Why not you?

[faust]

I have disagree with that!

Why not you?

It's lucky that we can let that sort itself out.

We just need to exile Didds and then if EFHW is town she's going to have to shoot the last scum.

[infangthief]

Well.

vote: faust

Cop result right there.

[infangthief]

I guess I need to reread this game.

[faust]

Oh ah. fang is scum after all.

Vote: fang

[faust]

We need to think about coordinating EFHW's shot tonight.

I sincerely hope noone takes fang's claimed result seriously. If anyone thinks they can provide a case for how I can be scum, that will be interesting.

[faust]

Didds just has to the the third scum here. No reason to get drawn into a 1v1 with me here if we could just have the automatic Didds exile. So if you prefer, we can also exile Didds now and then EFHW shoots whichever of me/fang she thinks scummier.

[infangthief]

So Didds is almost certainly town. Faust and whoever his partner is just trying to get that exile for the win. I mean, even now that faust is caught, he still wants a Didds exile first.

[faust]

So Didds is almost certainly town. Faust and whoever his partner is just trying to get that exile for the win. I mean, even now that faust is caught, he still wants a Didds exile first.

So I am scum, and Didds is town. And why exactly did scum!me decide to exile Dylan tonight? Dylan who said that

All the arguments about Didds being partners with scola were convincing to me, so that should be an autoexile tomorrow

[jotheonah]

So Didds is almost certainly town. Faust and whoever his partner is just trying to get that exile for the win. I mean, even now that faust is caught, he still wants a Didds exile first.

So I am scum, and Didds is town. And why exactly did scum!me decide to exile Dylan tonight? Dylan who said that

All the arguments about Didds being partners with scola were convincing to me, so that should be an autoexile tomorrow

Well to be fair there’s an easy answer there. If we’d woken up and Dylan was alive we’d have to ask ourselves “why” and we might end up talking ourselves into Didds being town based on the fact that scum didn’t kill Dylan. In fact if Didds were town not killing Dylan would be a pretty attractive prospect.

[jotheonah]

Quote fail, sorry. Mobile posting.

Well to be fair there’s an easy answer there. If we’d woken up and Dylan was alive we’d have to ask ourselves “why” and we might end up talking ourselves into Didds being town based on the fact that scum didn’t kill Dylan. In fact if Didds were town not killing Dylan would be a pretty attractive prospect.

[faust]

I mean, I don't think we would have batted an eye if the town Cop who was unsuccessfully 1v1'd by scum died instead of Dylan. I fully expected fang to die tonight.

[jotheonah]

So from where I’m sitting we have one scum in {faust, fang} and one in {Didds, EFHW}.

If we go with the second set and choose wrong it’s game over. If we go with the first set and choose wrong then we can at least draw the game if EFHW is an actual vig. (We’re at 3-2, exile makes it 2-2, nightkills make it 1-1).

Wait a minute, do we no exile here? Again, if we believe EFHW and we know the RB is gone, then a no exile and a vig hit gets us to 2-1 tomorrow.

Eh that’s actually pretty bad, since EFHW doesn’t know if it’s me or Didds or fang or Faust.

So I guess the best bet is to go for fang or faust, then play for the draw if we’re wrong. Or just lose if we’re wrong and EFHW is also scum.

[jotheonah]

Double voting IC is stronger than cop I think. Scarier anyway this late in the game.

Wait a minute so in this scenario scum is you and me/EFHW. And you/we have to choose between killing a double voting IC who has professed a wrong read and a claimed cop.

Yeah, I guess I would kill the cop there but I don’t think it’s like an obvious choice.

In a perfect world, this would be the time for my re-read to decide if I’m feeling overwhelmingly sure about these two 1v1s. If I had to pick now I’d say faust and EFHW are friends and fang and Didds are foes.

Hey fang, why did you pick faust to investigate?

[WestCoastDidds]

Good morning!!

I’m in Santa Fe with friends for the next three days so VLA-ish.

I did a quick pass, but haven’t had a chance to read carefully. Why the frick are we in a 1v1 again, especially between the only clear allies? Does scum really let EHFW live when it’s the only offense town has? That makes no sense to me.

I’ll catch up as I can!

[faust]

If we go with the second set and choose wrong it’s game over. If we go with the first set and choose wrong then we can at least draw the game if EFHW is an actual vig. (We’re at 3-2, exile makes it 2-2, nightkills make it 1-1).

This is not a draw. We end up with 1 town/1 scum, there is no exile, and then scum kills the remaining town.

[jotheonah]

If we go with the second set and choose wrong it’s game over. If we go with the first set and choose wrong then we can at least draw the game if EFHW is an actual vig. (We’re at 3-2, exile makes it 2-2, nightkills make it 1-1).

This is not a draw. We end up with 1 town/1 scum, there is no exile, and then scum kills the remaining town.

Oh yeah. Good point.

[jotheonah]

So EFHW isn’t really helpful to us in any scenario. Which answers Didds’ question.

[faust]

So EFHW isn’t really helpful to us in any scenario. Which answers Didds’ question.

Well she is helpful in the sense that if we end this day and we're not sure whether EFHW is town or not, she can try to shoot the last scum to prevent herself being exiled.

[EFHW]

I guess I need to reread this game.

Why do you need to reread? You said you had a cop result. And yeah, why investigate faust? He's hardly the scummiest person here. Why not Didds? Or me? or joth!

[EFHW]

If I had to pick now I’d say faust and EFHW are friends and fang and Didds are foes.

This is where I land as well. For peace of mind, though, I really do want to hear why you are town.

[infangthief]

Hey fang, why did you pick faust to investigate?

Yesterday people (EFHW and Dylan I think?) were talking about agreement bias, and it occurred to me that that was where my assumption that faust was town was coming from.

So it seemed good to get some reassurance there.
Like yes, yes, faust making lots of sense, agree with all of that, exile Didds, exile EFHW... Oh, we lost.

[EFHW]

It does seem a bit OP that we would have a vig and all these other roles, especially when scum doesn't have much.  We'll have to ask math about that later. We don't know yet which of the 10,000 roles that have been claimed are legit, but cop + vig + bodyguard + mayor + rolecop + roleblocker seems like 2 too many roles. From my perspective, the two unverified are the cop and roleblocker. fang and scola have been fighting tooth and nail. Could it be an act? fang's case on scola was super-flimsy and scola has been relying primarily on OMGUS for his case. I'll reread them.

Reposting this rather than retyping it.

[EFHW]

@fang, when you said scola's first post was scummy, what were you referring to?

[infangthief]

I guess I need to reread this game.

Why do you need to reread? You said you had a cop result. And yeah, why investigate faust? He's hardly the scummiest person here. Why not Didds? Or me? or joth!

Because I've been thinking faust is town pretty much the entire game. Things will probably look quite different knowing he's scum. I wonder what all I have got wrong.

As for investigating faust - see answer to joth. But also, why should I investigate the scummiest person? We've got to find two scum, not just one, and I probably don't get two chances to investigate and report back (am surprised to even get one). "Scummiest person is scum" doesn't help us much.

PPE 2

[infangthief]

@fang, when you said scola's first post was scummy, what were you referring to?

Um, see if I can remember. The one about why MiX was voting for him. I think it was a gut feel, like how he wasn't replying to MiX, he was explaining the situation to everyone else, just seemed a weird and overly defensive way of going about things.

[jotheonah]

If I had to pick now I’d say faust and EFHW are friends and fang and Didds are foes.

This is where I land as well. For peace of mind, though, I really do want to hear why you are town.

I guess “because I am” is probably not going to be helpful.

But I don’t have a lot more. Two you what, when I reread I’ll also look out for good reasons I’m town.

[jotheonah]

Getting on a plane in a bit. Gonna re-read when I’m up there if the Wi-Fi works.

[EFHW]

@fang, when you said scola's first post was scummy, what were you referring to?

Um, see if I can remember. The one about why MiX was voting for him. I think it was a gut feel, like how he wasn't replying to MiX, he was explaining the situation to everyone else, just seemed a weird and overly defensive way of going about things.

His first post was #58, about sports I think.

[EFHW]

I guess I need to reread this game.

Why do you need to reread? You said you had a cop result. And yeah, why investigate faust? He's hardly the scummiest person here. Why not Didds? Or me? or joth!

Because I've been thinking faust is town pretty much the entire game. Things will probably look quite different knowing he's scum. I wonder what all I have got wrong.

As for investigating faust - see answer to joth. But also, why should I investigate the scummiest person? We've got to find two scum, not just one, and I probably don't get two chances to investigate and report back (am surprised to even get one). "Scummiest person is scum" doesn't help us much.

PPE 2

If you feel good about faust, and there's only one more chance to find scum, it seems like you investigate someone you don't feel good about because a town result on someone you already think is town is not informative, but either result on a scummy person is helpful.

[infangthief]

@fang, when you said scola's first post was scummy, what were you referring to?

Um, see if I can remember. The one about why MiX was voting for him. I think it was a gut feel, like how he wasn't replying to MiX, he was explaining the situation to everyone else, just seemed a weird and overly defensive way of going about things.

His first post was #58, about sports I think.

Ok, yeah, #57. I didn't understand the sport thing. Golden balloon? Messi is football (er, soccer) right. All I picked up on was he was trying to give an explanation for why MiX was voting for him.

[infangthief]

I guess I need to reread this game.

Why do you need to reread? You said you had a cop result. And yeah, why investigate faust? He's hardly the scummiest person here. Why not Didds? Or me? or joth!

Because I've been thinking faust is town pretty much the entire game. Things will probably look quite different knowing he's scum. I wonder what all I have got wrong.

As for investigating faust - see answer to joth. But also, why should I investigate the scummiest person? We've got to find two scum, not just one, and I probably don't get two chances to investigate and report back (am surprised to even get one). "Scummiest person is scum" doesn't help us much.

PPE 2

If you feel good about faust, and there's only one more chance to find scum, it seems like you investigate someone you don't feel good about because a town result on someone you already think is town is not informative, but either result on a scummy person is helpful.

Did you read the other bit? I realised I had no actual idea about faust, if I was going to try and get past my agreement bias.
Didds scum, joth town, you in between, faust no idea.
And no point investigating you because I figured the only reason I'd be alive is if scum decided to kill you instead.

[infangthief]

Right, rereading, see how far I get, looking for significant things involving faust, EFHW, joth, scola. And it looks like I need to convince people of my own towniness too.

First significant thing is the early day 1 wagon on scola.

Mix votes for scola in first post of game, scola responds with #57 giving a reason why MiX would vote for him, faust votes for scola, and a bit later has this comment:

Oooh, literally.

So, does anyone else think scola's reaction to my vote is more scum indicative than not?

I mean, I voted for the guy, what else do you need to know?

I vote for scola also, and then suggest Joseph might want to as well (#118), seeing as Joseph wanted a wagon, then faust moves away from scola:

Actually, where are people? Dylan? gkrieg?

Yeah these are not the most reliable of posters.

Vote: Dylan

I have this issue where I always mix up scolapasta and Dylan, thus it would be very pro-town for one of them to get exiled early.

I challenge faust on this and we have this exchange:

faust, why did you move your vote away from scolapasta?

PPE: 2!

Because there were other people that I would rather vote for.

scola was under pressure at 3 votes and you moved away before he'd even responded.
To dylan. How is that helpful?

It is helpful for my vote to be on the person I most want to see exiled, in general. Sometimes, you have to compromise, but I don't think this was such a time. Early-game pressure isn't all that helpful.

So faust's bussing his partner, but he knows early game pressure doesn't mean much. But maybe got scared when there was a threat of a 4th vote turning up.
Or actually, @faust, can you tell us now why you voted for Dylan in #124?

Trying to sell wagons to people (like I was doing) is good for town, you get interesting responses sometimes.

While all that was happening, there was set-up talk happening and the mayor claiming plan, in which nearly everyone was involved, then Joseph claiming. So I'll look at some of that next, but it is late for me so it can wait for tomorrow.

[infangthief]

So Didds is almost certainly town. Faust and whoever his partner is just trying to get that exile for the win. I mean, even now that faust is caught, he still wants a Didds exile first.

So I am scum, and Didds is town. And why exactly did scum!me decide to exile Dylan tonight? Dylan who said that

All the arguments about Didds being partners with scola were convincing to me, so that should be an autoexile tomorrow

Ok, I will say I've been thinking about this. It is indeed a puzzle. I suppose there was the chance someone would reconsider overnight and maybe you thought the chance of Dylan reconsidering was higher than the chance that I'd cop you? You'd buddied me enough for that perhaps. Let me know if I'm right.

[jotheonah]

The day 1 scolapasta wagon is definitely interesting. fang starts a wagon on scola day 1 and pushes it pretty hard. faust jumps on but jumps off when it starts getting real and fang calls him out on it. If this is bussing by fang it is ballsy af.

It's not so much that faust's move is scummy, but fang's scola-wagon-pushing is really above and beyond what I'd expect from scumbuddies day 1.

and then scola becomes the topic of discussion later on, and again fang is voting for him and accusing him of scumslipping and faust is defending him. And then EFHW votes for fang for making a bad case.

and then a while later scola jumps on fang to make it a wagon.

faust also pushes the Didds wagon and tries to convince MiX to move from EFHW to Didds.

The total omission of EFHW from this list is sus:

As far as exiling WCD, meh. I mean if we want a lurker, I guess. But I've never been a fan of exiling lurkers D1, and WCD at least says she was on vacation and has a reasonable excuse for it. I'm more curious about gkrieg, joth, and swowl. Especially the last two, as they are usually more prolific.

Where you guys at?

Including this, just to give dead MiX a bit of a voice:

Reread scola, wow does he defend Didds a lot. Put them partnered if one flips scum. But otherwise townie. So, null, I guess.

Ok, after reading day 1, fang as town and faust as scum seems much more likely than the other way around based on interactions with scolapasta. EFHW/Didds is less clear cut. I actually disagree with MiX, I think EFHW's interactions with scola, fang, and faust are scummier than Didds'.

Gonna reread days 2 and 3 next.

PPE 2

[jotheonah]

Day 2 is kind of a bust because of the great Joseph distraction. Nothing particularly indicative, though faust did seem ready to end the day really quickly, before Joseph could even offer an explanation.

[jotheonah]

Bold take, scum team is fang, scola, faust, with faust masterminding the 1v1 between the other two and the plan to push to exile outside the 1v1 to get the last misexile.

Ok, that's probably not likely, but from my perspective (with worse PoE than other townies), I would rather exile from the 1v1 than the 50/50 from the other set of 4. For me it's the same odds, but it's actually higher given the possibility of two scum being in scola/fang. If we exile one of those two, worst case it's a 50/50, best case it's 100% scum. Exiling from the other set of 4, worst case it's 25% scum (33% if you are town in that set), best case 50% (66% if you are town in that set [I went to abbreviate this to "66% if " with the first letter of each word of the previous parenthesis, and almost died laughing when I typed it out lol]). Anyway, I suspect exiling from the 1v1 is probably at least as good statistically for us, if not straight up better. At the very least, it's close enough that I don't think we should choose to exile from the set of 4 based solely on odds.

Working on a whole day 3 post, but posting this separately. Isn't this... still possible? If fang and faust are both scum and they set up a SECOND scum v scum 1 v 1 knowing that whoever came out of it still standing would be an IC? I mean, it would explain why faust wants us to vote between EFHW and Didds.

[jotheonah]

Sorry! Dance of done is distracting!

I’m just a VT. Had I been something useful I’d have intimated that when I was gonna get exiled D1.

This is a little interesting. Didds wasn't ever that close to being exiled day 1. Scum tends to think they are closer to being exiled than they really are.

Sorry all for the delay - I had a friend last night ask me last night if I (and some other friends) could help his father pack up his house for moving - if any of you have ever helped a parent pack, you can understand it's an all day affair!

Back home now with weary arms and tired legs and can focus back on the game.

So, I am a Roleblocker. And while I did block fang, it was on N1. (on N2 I blocked faust)

I see no reason not to vote fang now, but I'll wait just in case I'm missing something.

I just don't see scum!scola using his claim to set up a 1v1 with his partner. I know that there's a big-brain play there, but it seems much more likely that he'd set up a 1v1 with the town cop, who I had already expressed distrust of. If you're going to take one person out before you go, the cop is a good one.

Here's what I see:

There is at most scum between scola and fang, probably - but not necessarily - exactly one.

There are 3 scum overall (I don't think with this many claimed PRs anyone assumes we're in a 2-scum setup), and 7 players alive. We know Dylan is town. That means we actually have better odds of hitting scum outside of scola/fang. And that way we leave one useful PR alive that might just be able to confirm themselves.

faust goes out of his way to point out that they could both be scum, because he doesn't want fang being an IC if we go with scola.

I promised to reveal my guess for the scum team. It's *drumroll*

EFHW, Didds, scola.

If you want to see a prefectly convenient fakeclaim, look no further than EFHW's vig claim.

I don't think that from a game-design POV, it makes sense to include a vig here. We start at odd parity, and there is very little chance of ever reaching even parity (only if scola is telling the truth and successfully blocks a nightkill). So arguably it's never good to use the vig. But including a vig that won't get used just doesn't make any sense.

Does scum!faust put both his partners on this list? Maybe.

I posit to you: The case why Didds and EFHW are scumpartners!

if this is scum!faust, he's trying to make sure that whichever of his partners gets exiled he'll be set up to go after a townie after their flip.

scola is clearly scum, since he's been sitting on fang's wagon and there hasn't been a hammer.

vote: scola

Two of faust, joth, Didds, fang are scum. I prefer to start rather than join a wagon.

Hard to square this vote with scum!EFHW, based on timing and context. Several other votes would have been defensible and any other vote would have been better.

[jotheonah]

Well, that was an enlightening re-read. I now think faust is definitely scum and should be today's exile.

I think there's a chance fang is his partner and this is honestly a really good ploy, so we have to keep that in mind for tomorrow.

If that's not the case, I'm really torn between Didds and EFHW. They both seem extremely towny on re-read.

But for today, I think it's faust and I'm ready to put a vote down. But I'll wait to hear people's thoughts on my case in deference to a quickhammer possibility.

[EFHW]

You don't really say what is scummy about faust except for the Didds/EFHW team prediction (I agree that was suspicious -- he rolled a drum but then never followed up). He disagreed with my suggestions that fang and scola were partners, so your argument doesn't really hold up re: his calling attention to that possibility. And there was no risk of fang being seen as IC if scola flipped scum.

faust has been my towncore. I'll want to see more if I'm going to consider voting for him. fang has been scummy and town having a sane cop on top of all the other roles is just too much!

Also, you have been making conspiracy theories about faust in recent games. The faust/fang partnership seems like that.

[jotheonah]

Just re-read day 1 and tell me you really believe that fang busses his partner as early and often as he does with scola.

[WestCoastDidds]

Sorry! Dance of done is distracting!

I’m just a VT. Had I been something useful I’d have intimated that when I was gonna get exiled D1.

This is a little interesting. Didds wasn't ever that close to being exiled day 1. Scum tends to think they are closer to being exiled than they really are.

Oh, goodness no. I was totally getting exiled. There was the need to test the mayors, and faust was focused on me. That wasn’t scum paranoia, it was WCD realism.

Faust has yet to articulate any case on me, other than his gut and he’s been hard core tunneled all game. So much so that I feel like anything I go is just pointless. Between the family vacation when we started and being away with friends this week, I’m hurting us by being disengaged, but also faust had been completely steering this game from D1. I’m not sure how he is alive unless he’s scum.

[EFHW]

Just re-read day 1 and tell me you really believe that fang busses his partner as early and often as he does with scola.

I did reread it, and the bussing had no teerh.

[faust]

Or actually, @faust, can you tell us now why you voted for Dylan in #124?

I think I was reading Dylan's post where he voted MiX and thought it kind of scummy because of the need to explain himself. Then, I confused scolapasta and Dylan and thought both Dylan's post and the prior one by scola were from scola, and voted for scola.

Later on, Dylan was not around and scola had done some things (and I had realized my mistake), so I changed to Dylan.

[faust]

Here's what I see:

There is at most scum between scola and fang, probably - but not necessarily - exactly one.

There are 3 scum overall (I don't think with this many claimed PRs anyone assumes we're in a 2-scum setup), and 7 players alive. We know Dylan is town. That means we actually have better odds of hitting scum outside of scola/fang. And that way we leave one useful PR alive that might just be able to confirm themselves.

faust goes out of his way to point out that they could both be scum, because he doesn't want fang being an IC if we go with scola.

This is not what I meant. As should be clear form context, the disclaimer was actually that they could both be town.

I promised to reveal my guess for the scum team. It's *drumroll*

EFHW, Didds, scola.

If you want to see a prefectly convenient fakeclaim, look no further than EFHW's vig claim.

I don't think that from a game-design POV, it makes sense to include a vig here. We start at odd parity, and there is very little chance of ever reaching even parity (only if scola is telling the truth and successfully blocks a nightkill). So arguably it's never good to use the vig. But including a vig that won't get used just doesn't make any sense.

Does scum!faust put both his partners on this list? Maybe.

Indeed this seems to be the crux of your change of mind. fang does a little push on a wagon that was never a threat, and now he can't be scum, but no matter how much I work towards exiling scum, it will never convince you.

[faust]

If that's not the case, I'm really torn between Didds and EFHW. They both seem extremely towny on re-read.

There's a lot to respond but mostly... how on earth does Didds seem towny?!

[faust]

Just re-read day 1 and tell me you really believe that fang busses his partner as early and often as he does with scola.

Just reread Day 3 and tell me that scum!me fights tooth and nail to prevent an exile of town!fang that you/Dylan were basically set on when just letting the exile go through would have won the game for scum!me.

This is the ridiculous bias that you bring into this. You are perfectly happy to exonerate fang on a flimsy basis of some early D1 posts, but there is nothing I could ever do to receive the same treatment. It's infuriating.

[faust]

I mean, it would explain why faust wants us to vote between EFHW and Didds.

I don't want that. This is a fiction. My vote is on fang. But I realize that the decision is harder for you, and I am sufficiently certain of my read on Didds that I would accept that exile over fang's.

[faust]

I’m not sure how he is alive unless he’s scum.

vomiting emoji face

[faust]

joth, you believe that
- scum decided to go into a 1v1 on D3 to win the game
- then the most influential of the scumteam does everything in his power to make that 1v1 swing in the direction which doesn't win the game for scum
- finally, rather than removing the only obstacle in the way of reaping towncred from the above (stupid) move - a Cop result - scum leaves the Cop alive

This just... doesn't make sense. You seem to at the same time suggest that I am both incredibly good and incredibly bad at playing scum. A terrible move being unexpected doesn't make it any less terrible.

[jotheonah]

This is the ridiculous bias that you bring into this. You are perfectly happy to exonerate fang on a flimsy basis of some early D1 posts, but there is nothing I could ever do to receive the same treatment. It's infuriating.

This is AtE, it’s over the top, and it’s not really fair.

Look I was ride or die you until I re-read the whole game and your interactions with out one confirmed scum were scummier than fangs. He’s a claimed cop with a scum result on you. One of you is scum.

If that's not the case, I'm really torn between Didds and EFHW. They both seem extremely towny on re-read.

There's a lot to respond but mostly... how on earth does Didds seem towny?!

Ok, maybe better would be to say, on reread, they both have a lot of towny posts and a handful of scummy ones.

Which by the way proves that this isn’t some crazy bias of mine, and it’s so insulting for you to say it is. This is me re-reading the whole game and coming away with an overall impression that your play is consistent with the scum-faust of my experience.

Why would you defend fang day 3? That’s the crux of your defense. Well, your partner had just decided to 1v1 him. Sure your team could go all in to throw your weight behind him winning the 1v1. And you could lose anyway, especially with a mayor still in the mix adding an extra vote to the equation and playing his cards somewhat close to the vest (by the way I would love for you to support your assertion that Dylan was “basically set on” fang).

So what happens today if your whole team goes in on the wrong side of the 1v1 and still loses? Game over. So you hedge your bets with the full-throated defense of fang hoping to ride the towncred to victory.

It’s actually the smarter play.

[jotheonah]

Just re-read day 1 and tell me you really believe that fang busses his partner as early and often as he does with scola.

I did reread it, and the bussing had no teerh.

Well if you want to convince me, support that assertion.

In my experience, day 1 scum bussing is light. Fang was doing everything he could to make the scola thing happen, including bringing it back to life after it died of its own accord.

Now I haven’t played with fang before so maybe he’s gutsier than I’m giving him credit for. But if that’s the case there should be evidence for it. So show me another game where he’s done a day 1 bus like this.

[infangthief]

Joth, I really don't think Didds can be faust's partner.

There's the bit in day 1 where Dylan says whoever gets to 3 votes next is going to be the test subject, which basically involved Dylan and Joseph voting, then others piling on until an exile happened (with a theoretical reprieve only if they were both drunk).

So then when faust votes for Didds, that's the 3rd vote and effectively certain exile. Except that Joseph hesitated and MiX argued and we got into a bit of an impasse.

[infangthief]

Why would you defend fang day 3? That’s the crux of your defense. Well, your partner had just decided to 1v1 him. Sure your team could go all in to throw your weight behind him winning the 1v1. And you could lose anyway, especially with a mayor still in the mix adding an extra vote to the equation and playing his cards somewhat close to the vest (by the way I would love for you to support your assertion that Dylan was “basically set on” fang).

So what happens today if your whole team goes in on the wrong side of the 1v1 and still loses? Game over. So you hedge your bets with the full-throated defense of fang hoping to ride the towncred to victory.

It’s actually the smarter play.

Ok, yes this is interesting. I think scola's 1v1 must have taken faust by surprise. Just before scola claimed, faust had said he would just vote scola anyway if he didn't claim soon.
So then after scola claimed and set up the 1v1, what choice did faust have? He's promised to reveal his guess of the entire scum team - it would be really weird if he didn't include scola in it after that readiness to vote before he even claimed.
So he's kind of trapped into believing my side of the 1v1, but next best is to suggest we exile outside of the 1v1.

Makes sense I think.

[jotheonah]

Joth, I really don't think Didds can be faust's partner.

There's the bit in day 1 where Dylan says whoever gets to 3 votes next is going to be the test subject, which basically involved Dylan and Joseph voting, then others piling on until an exile happened (with a theoretical reprieve only if they were both drunk).

So then when faust votes for Didds, that's the 3rd vote and effectively certain exile. Except that Joseph hesitated and MiX argued and we got into a bit of an impasse.

Well a faust-EFHW team lines up with their reaction to my reread.

[faust]

(by the way I would love for you to support your assertion that Dylan was “basically set on” fang).

Sure, here goes:

So there's a moment where you have to kind of trust your gut, especially when there's decent reasoning that backs it up, even if it's not ironclad proof. When it's the first person on the claim list vs the last and those two positions did correspond to my reads, I feel like I have to ride or die with it a little bit. Also, if we have a town cop AND a rolecop, we need to have a little conversation with our mod about balancing a game imho. Fang had to just look at the town roles, figure that cop probably wouldn't directly get counterclaimed after gkrieg's flip and just went with it. Remove gkrieg from the game, and I think it would have been a reasonable enough claim given the possibility of insane, but I just don't see town having both of those given the options for scum.

Of course, being the last person on the IC's list could have given scola the courage to counterclaim given scum might only need one more exile to win, and that's honestly about the only thing that's keeping me from just voting right now.

[faust]

So you hedge your bets with the full-throated defense of fang hoping to ride the towncred to victory.

Either I'm hedging my bets or I'm doing something full-throatedly.

[faust]

And you could lose anyway

How would that happen exactly?

[faust]

Now I haven’t played with fang before so maybe he’s gutsier than I’m giving him credit for. But if that’s the case there should be evidence for it. So show me another game where he’s done a day 1 bus like this.

Has fang even been scum before or are you asking for the impossible?

[faust]

Why would you defend fang day 3? That’s the crux of your defense. Well, your partner had just decided to 1v1 him. Sure your team could go all in to throw your weight behind him winning the 1v1. And you could lose anyway, especially with a mayor still in the mix adding an extra vote to the equation and playing his cards somewhat close to the vest (by the way I would love for you to support your assertion that Dylan was “basically set on” fang).

So what happens today if your whole team goes in on the wrong side of the 1v1 and still loses? Game over. So you hedge your bets with the full-throated defense of fang hoping to ride the towncred to victory.

It’s actually the smarter play.

Ok, yes this is interesting. I think scola's 1v1 must have taken faust by surprise. Just before scola claimed, faust had said he would just vote scola anyway if he didn't claim soon.
So then after scola claimed and set up the 1v1, what choice did faust have? He's promised to reveal his guess of the entire scum team - it would be really weird if he didn't include scola in it after that readiness to vote before he even claimed.
So he's kind of trapped into believing my side of the 1v1, but next best is to suggest we exile outside of the 1v1.

Makes sense I think.

Why... would I be taken by surprise? Anyone who's ever been scum with me knows I'm planning out fakeclaims metisculously. I was the one who suggested a massclaim in the first place, surely scum!me would have done that knowing what his teammates planned.

[faust]

Why would you defend fang day 3? That’s the crux of your defense. Well, your partner had just decided to 1v1 him. Sure your team could go all in to throw your weight behind him winning the 1v1. And you could lose anyway, especially with a mayor still in the mix adding an extra vote to the equation and playing his cards somewhat close to the vest (by the way I would love for you to support your assertion that Dylan was “basically set on” fang).

So what happens today if your whole team goes in on the wrong side of the 1v1 and still loses? Game over. So you hedge your bets with the full-throated defense of fang hoping to ride the towncred to victory.

It’s actually the smarter play.

Going back to this... none of your arguments hold any water.

- if scum wins a 1v1 that's a win. It doesn't matter one bit that there's still a Mayor especially since said Mayor can be safely killed.
- I have shown how Dylan was reacting; that was before I ever said anything about the matter.
- it's not game over if scum looks bad in the 1v1. It is however game over if there's a Cop result that annihilates any towncred, so why risk that? Also if you say the reason I went against scola is so that the whole team wasn't on the same side then you'd have to demonstrate that my scumpartner was pushing for fang... but noone else was pushing for fang except you and Dylan.
- there was no need for me to do either/or. I could have just come out undecided, which in all likelihood would have led to fang's death.

[jotheonah]

So you hedge your bets with the full-throated defense of fang hoping to ride the towncred to victory.

Either I'm hedging my bets or I'm doing something full-throatedly.

Your TEAM is hedging their bets with YOUR full-throated defense— this is obviously not a contradiction. All your pithy little rejoinders are so empty! This does not feel like good-faith arguing.

[faust]

If that's not the case, I'm really torn between Didds and EFHW. They both seem extremely towny on re-read.

There's a lot to respond but mostly... how on earth does Didds seem towny?!

Ok, maybe better would be to say, on reread, they both have a lot of towny posts and a handful of scummy ones.

Which are Didds's towny posts?

[faust]

So you hedge your bets with the full-throated defense of fang hoping to ride the towncred to victory.

Either I'm hedging my bets or I'm doing something full-throatedly.

Your TEAM is hedging their bets with YOUR full-throated defense— this is obviously not a contradiction. All your pithy little rejoinders are so empty! This does not feel like good-faith arguing.

Again this would imply that the other teammember was going after fang - who would that be?

[faust]

I will be very annoyed with myself when joth turns out to be fang's partner.

[jotheonah]

Why would you defend fang day 3? That’s the crux of your defense. Well, your partner had just decided to 1v1 him. Sure your team could go all in to throw your weight behind him winning the 1v1. And you could lose anyway, especially with a mayor still in the mix adding an extra vote to the equation and playing his cards somewhat close to the vest (by the way I would love for you to support your assertion that Dylan was “basically set on” fang).

So what happens today if your whole team goes in on the wrong side of the 1v1 and still loses? Game over. So you hedge your bets with the full-throated defense of fang hoping to ride the towncred to victory.

It’s actually the smarter play.

Going back to this... none of your arguments hold any water.

- if scum wins a 1v1 that's a win. It doesn't matter one bit that there's still a Mayor especially since said Mayor can be safely killed.
- I have shown how Dylan was reacting; that was before I ever said anything about the matter.
- it's not game over if scum looks bad in the 1v1. It is however game over if there's a Cop result that annihilates any towncred, so why risk that? Also if you say the reason I went against scola is so that the whole team wasn't on the same side then you'd have to demonstrate that my scumpartner was pushing for fang... but noone else was pushing for fang except you and Dylan.
- there was no need for me to do either/or. I could have just come out undecided, which in all likelihood would have led to fang's death.

It’s clearly not game over if there’s a cop result because you can just insist the cop is scum and you’re town.

[faust]

Why would you defend fang day 3? That’s the crux of your defense. Well, your partner had just decided to 1v1 him. Sure your team could go all in to throw your weight behind him winning the 1v1. And you could lose anyway, especially with a mayor still in the mix adding an extra vote to the equation and playing his cards somewhat close to the vest (by the way I would love for you to support your assertion that Dylan was “basically set on” fang).

So what happens today if your whole team goes in on the wrong side of the 1v1 and still loses? Game over. So you hedge your bets with the full-throated defense of fang hoping to ride the towncred to victory.

It’s actually the smarter play.

Going back to this... none of your arguments hold any water.

- if scum wins a 1v1 that's a win. It doesn't matter one bit that there's still a Mayor especially since said Mayor can be safely killed.
- I have shown how Dylan was reacting; that was before I ever said anything about the matter.
- it's not game over if scum looks bad in the 1v1. It is however game over if there's a Cop result that annihilates any towncred, so why risk that? Also if you say the reason I went against scola is so that the whole team wasn't on the same side then you'd have to demonstrate that my scumpartner was pushing for fang... but noone else was pushing for fang except you and Dylan.
- there was no need for me to do either/or. I could have just come out undecided, which in all likelihood would have led to fang's death.

It’s clearly not game over if there’s a cop result because you can just insist the cop is scum and you’re town.

Lol. It's "game over" if all scum go after the town in 1v1 (even though they can just insist the other one in the 1v1 is also scum) but somehow it's not "game over" if there's a Cop result because I can insist that that very same player is scum...

[jotheonah]

You know what?


vote: faust

I’m feeling better and better about this.

[faust]

Well it was a good run. gg scum.

[faust]

I guess joth is going to need that consolation that he didn't make the worst mistake in the game.

[faust]

But in case you come here before any of the scum, ask yourself whether you're doing this because you're annoyed with me or because you think I'm scum.

[faust]

And in the case that joth is actually scum - I'm sorry Didds. Please don't follow this. If we just believe one another then we can still win this.

[faust]

But in case you come here before any of the scum, ask yourself whether you're doing this because you're annoyed with me or because you think I'm scum.

I guess there's at most one scum who can hammer.

[jotheonah]

But in case you come here before any of the scum, ask yourself whether you're doing this because you're annoyed with me or because you think I'm scum.

it's 100% because I think you're scum.

I'm not particularly annoyed with you.

But thanks for checking in.

[faust]

I guess Didds is VLA so it might be a while before we have confirmation either way. Not sure what to do with that time. Yell at joth some more? Didn't yield much of use so far. But it did give me peace of mind.

[faust]

Well I suppose I should work under the assumption that joth is scum and decided this is the time to take a stand. It would explain why joth was so very receptive to my arguments on D3 and not at all today.

It's weird that at no point that team went and exiled Didds. That sure seems like the easiest misexile here. Dylan wanted it, it was within reach on D3 even. I can only guess that they were worried that it's a trap?

[faust]

I'm not particularly annoyed with you.

I'm going to take this as extra confirmation that joth is scum.

[faust]

It is kind of beautiful I have to admit - watching me burn all the bridges with Didds and then using that to rope her into misexiling me.

[faust]

The thing that would break me is if EFHW were to come in and hammer now, all PR claims a lie, every opinion I voiced in the game exposed as very silly.

[EFHW]

Enough with the AtE! vote: fang.

[faust]

Enough with the AtE! vote: fang.

But what else am I to do?

[faust]

Well I suppose if Didds is scum then she becomes an IC with her next post.

[faust]

Well I suppose if Didds is scumtown then she becomes an IC with her next post.

EBWOP

[WestCoastDidds]

Vote: faust

Same vote, different day

[infangthief]

Vote: faust

Same vote, different day

Good choice.

I was just about to make it clear again that the scum team couldn't be joth and me, or we'd have surely found a way to exile you today.

But no need.

Pretty sure EFHW has to be scum, so quick day 5 and finish before Christmas hopefully.

[EFHW]

No gloating? I hope that means I was wrong about faust.

[EFHW]

The wagon is fang, joth, Didds. There has to be scum on there, from my pov.

[jotheonah]

Vote: faust

Same vote, different day

Good choice.

I was just about to make it clear again that the scum team couldn't be joth and me, or we'd have surely found a way to exile you today.

But no need.

Pretty sure EFHW has to be scum, so quick day 5 and finish before Christmas hopefully.

Feeling similarly.

[mathdude]

Thread locked.

End of day post coming shortly.

[mathdude]

The rats - how they marveled.  Their disguises, so merry!  Their ploys and their plots and their plans made them cheery!
 Rats took off mouse costumes, even the cute little bow, the game was over before Christmas, time to play in the snow.  The rats smoked a pipe, held tight in their teeth; and the smoke, it encircled their heads like a wreath.  They exiled faust today, then each patted his belly, that shook when they laughed, like a bowl full of jelly.  I felt chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf, and I smiled - the game's over - no help from myself.  A wink of the eye, and a twist of my head, soon gave me to know, I had nothing to dread.  I spoke not a word but went straight to work, typing the end of the game, then I turned with a jerk.  And laying my finger aside of my nose, and giving a nod, I grabbed for a rose.  EFHW and jotheonah were endgamed - time for a whistle.  infangthief and WestCoastDidds were rats like a thistle.  Back to Real Life, I exclaimed, as I vanished from sight - "Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night!"

faust has been exiled and was Minnie Mouse, a Vanilla Townie.
EFHW has been endgamed and was Nynaeve, a town-aligned Even-Night Vigilante.
jotheonah has been endgamed and was Mrs. Brisby, a Vanilla Townie.
infangthief survived to the end and was Reepicheep, a Goon rat dressed in mouse clothing.
WestCoastDidds survived to the end and was Fievel Mousekewitz, a RoleCop rat dressed in mouse clothing.

Vote "count" 4.final
Votes for faust: infangthief, jotheonah, WestCoastDidds
Votes for infangthief: faust, EFHW
Not voting: (none)
(with 5 alive, it took 3 votes to exile)

GAME OVER - RATS WIN!

[jotheonah]

Gosh darn it.

[jotheonah]

Good game everyone. Well played. Sorry I screwed it all up, that’ll teach me to re-read and think for myself.

[MiX]

Can't believe my D1 reads were all right. That's so wrong! Why did I decide to kill myself!?

Joth, it's okay, I also thought faust was scum in the end.

Here's speccy: Chatzy.com/67054214717004

[scolapasta]

Wow, how the heck did we manage that??

Great job fang and Didds! Amazing!

(Sorry for what i think was still a mistake on day 3; I in retrospect i see it, but I'll explain more later, when I'm at a computer and not a phone)

[mathdude]

Can't believe my D1 reads were all right. That's so wrong! Why did I decide to kill myself!?

Joth, it's okay, I also thought faust was scum in the end.

Here's speccy: Chatzy.com/67054214717004

Speccy link posted above by MiX.

Scum chat here: https://us22.chatzy.com/94597434823284

[mathdude]

Also, we ran into an issue with Chatzy (first noticed in Scum chat)...

Without a premium account, you can only "look back" at so many messages.  The full chat is not available.  They talked so much, I actually had to ask for them to re-post night actions on N1, since they had posted them and then it disappeared from view before the end of the night.

So, I'm going to say Chatzy is probably not the solution to our QT problem.

I'm going to leave the scum and speccy rooms as-is for a bit.  But as the admin in those rooms, I'm able to delete messages.  I'm wondering if, when I delete recent messages, I will be able to view older messages.  Then I may just need to post the full room chats into the thread here.

[Galzria]

The biggest reason, to my mind, that fang was scum -

His claim didn’t make sense.

N1 Scum had to have investigated Gkrieg. It’s the only reasonable explanation for killing him N2 (instead of IC-Double Voter Dylan). And on N2, if scum were making the choice to kill Gkrieg over Dylan, there’s no world where they would’ve picked a random person (fang) to block instead of Dylan.

Beyond that though - Faust’s points were right on at the end of the day. Scum were 1 Exile from winning. A) Scum!faust doesn’t go for crazy schemes unless he needs to (playing from behind). B) Scum!faust isn’t sloppy. He would’ve known what was coming D3 and planned for it. He’s not getting “caught unawares” there. C) Fang claimed first, Scola claimed second - there were much easier misexile targets for Scum to set up a 1v1 with (if they wanted - that wasn’t even required) at that point. There was no reason to make it Scola vs Fang. That’s not a setup scum!faust would’ve presented in the Scum QT N3.

[EFHW]

Relieved and glad my reads were right, sad we lost. Oh well!

Thanks for the game math!

[EFHW]

Also, we ran into an issue with Chatzy (first noticed in Scum chat)...

Without a premium account, you can only "look back" at so many messages.  The full chat is not available.  They talked so much, I actually had to ask for them to re-post night actions on N1, since they had posted them and then it disappeared from view before the end of the night.

So, I'm going to say Chatzy is probably not the solution to our QT problem.

I'm going to leave the scum and speccy rooms as-is for a bit.  But as the admin in those rooms, I'm able to delete messages.  I'm wondering if, when I delete recent messages, I will be able to view older messages.  Then I may just need to post the full room chats into the thread here.

Did you try review mode (in options at left of screen)?

[Dylan32]

gg

glad I was right about fang and Didds originally and that I was able to be convinced about scola lol. Good voice killing me the last night because I still thought there was a decent chance fang v scola was a fake 1v1 based solely on my knowledge of past scola games.

[mathdude]

Also, we ran into an issue with Chatzy (first noticed in Scum chat)...

Without a premium account, you can only "look back" at so many messages.  The full chat is not available.  They talked so much, I actually had to ask for them to re-post night actions on N1, since they had posted them and then it disappeared from view before the end of the night.

So, I'm going to say Chatzy is probably not the solution to our QT problem.

I'm going to leave the scum and speccy rooms as-is for a bit.  But as the admin in those rooms, I'm able to delete messages.  I'm wondering if, when I delete recent messages, I will be able to view older messages.  Then I may just need to post the full room chats into the thread here.

Did you try review mode (in options at left of screen)?

Yes, I did.  It goes back further than the visible page.  But still only goes back so far.  When I try to click the "Earlier Posts", it gives this message:

Function not available
Since your room is not a Premium Room, you can only review the last page of the chat

[WestCoastDidds]

In fairness, Joth, I told fang that you were his target audience last night so everything he was doing was designed to appeal to you. That kind of single-focused persuasion is powerful. Faust getting cranky about it just made it even more effective.

Fang, you were great! MVP, for sure.

And again, my apologies for the VLA x2. I didn’t realize when I signed up this that would play out, but it wasn’t awesome to be so absent.

[WestCoastDidds]

Gkrieg hasn’t copped, just a good guess. We copped Swowl the night he hit killed.

[Galzria]

Gkrieg hasn’t copped, just a good guess. We copped Swowl the night he hit killed.

A very good guess! However, from every non-scum players perspective, the “correct read” should’ve  been that you had copped Gkrieg. Likewise, even though you didn’t actually end up blocking Dylan N2, it really should’ve been the basis for why fang’s claim didn’t make sense.

[WestCoastDidds]

Gkrieg hasn’t copped, just a good guess. We copped Swowl the night he hit killed.

A very good guess! However, from every non-scum players perspective, the “correct read” should’ve  been that you had copped Gkrieg. Likewise, even though you didn’t actually end up blocking Dylan N2, it really should’ve been the basis for why fang’s claim didn’t make sense.

We were pretty much a textbook definition of bumbling scum! We didn’t talk through some things we probably should have and fang and Scola see the game really differently so nothing felt like it made sense to me, but I was always distracted by life this past few weeks so I’m just lucky they were able to carry the weight

[infangthief]

Whew! I thought we were all going down so many times.

Thanks mathdude for the game, and I loved the Night Before Christmas adaptation.

[WestCoastDidds]

You did great!

[jotheonah]

I need faust to post so I know he doesn’t hate me lol.

[jotheonah]

In fairness, Joth, I told fang that you were his target audience last night so everything he was doing was designed to appeal to you. That kind of single-focused persuasion is powerful. Faust getting cranky about it just made it even more effective.

Fang, you were great! MVP, for sure.

And again, my apologies for the VLA x2. I didn’t realize when I signed up this that would play out, but it wasn’t awesome to be so absent.

Idk if this makes me feel better or worse.

At the end of the day it’s just a game. Everyone played it well. Win some lose some. But that Joseph thing, eh?

[infangthief]

I need faust to post so I know he doesn’t hate me lol.

Likewise.

[infangthief]

Gkrieg hasn’t copped, just a good guess. We copped Swowl the night he hit killed.

A very good guess! However, from every non-scum players perspective, the “correct read” should’ve  been that you had copped Gkrieg. Likewise, even though you didn’t actually end up blocking Dylan N2, it really should’ve been the basis for why fang’s claim didn’t make sense.

We were pretty much a textbook definition of bumbling scum! We didn’t talk through some things we probably should have and fang and Scola see the game really differently so nothing felt like it made sense to me, but I was always distracted by life this past few weeks so I’m just lucky they were able to carry the weight

One could say "Better to be lucky than good."

[faust]

I need faust to post so I know he doesn’t hate me lol.

Likewise.

Oh no worries it's all good  I take consolation in the fact that I was right (except about the 1v1; I bow my head to EFHW on that one).

[WestCoastDidds]

In fairness, Joth, I told fang that you were his target audience last night so everything he was doing was designed to appeal to you. That kind of single-focused persuasion is powerful. Faust getting cranky about it just made it even more effective.

Fang, you were great! MVP, for sure.

And again, my apologies for the VLA x2. I didn’t realize when I signed up this that would play out, but it wasn’t awesome to be so absent.

Idk if this makes me feel better or worse.

At the end of the day it’s just a game. Everyone played it well. Win some lose some. But that Joseph thing, eh?

Yep, yep

[WestCoastDidds]

One could say "Better to be lucky than good."

#truth

[EFHW]

In fairness, Joth, I told fang that you were his target audience last night so everything he was doing was designed to appeal to you. That kind of single-focused persuasion is powerful. Faust getting cranky about it just made it even more effective.

Fang, you were great! MVP, for sure.

And again, my apologies for the VLA x2. I didn’t realize when I signed up this that would play out, but it wasn’t awesome to be so absent.

Idk if this makes me feel better or worse.

At the end of the day it’s just a game. Everyone played it well. Win some lose some. But that Joseph thing, eh?

I think this was karma for your being hard on Joseph. That's what usually happens to me.

[jotheonah]

In fairness, Joth, I told fang that you were his target audience last night so everything he was doing was designed to appeal to you. That kind of single-focused persuasion is powerful. Faust getting cranky about it just made it even more effective.

Fang, you were great! MVP, for sure.

And again, my apologies for the VLA x2. I didn’t realize when I signed up this that would play out, but it wasn’t awesome to be so absent.

Idk if this makes me feel better or worse.

At the end of the day it’s just a game. Everyone played it well. Win some lose some. But that Joseph thing, eh?

I think this was karma for your being hard on Joseph. That's what usually happens to me.

Lol. Yep.

[infangthief]

It's so relatable, getting so drunk you think you're the mayor. Who among us hasn't had that happen at least once?

This post. Was funny. Then got funnier.

[mathdude]

Any Townies notice that the Joseph wagon was entirely Town? Scum didn't vote that day at all.

[infangthief]

Swowl, I am curious why you protected Dylan N1? In the speccy I think you were saying that Dylan NK was much more likely than Joseph. Was wondering why you thought there'd be a Dylan NK at all?

Also several people (in scumchat, speccy, and in this thread post game) have said scum should have blocked Dylan N2. I really don't get it. The way I see it, Dylan having one vote or two makes little difference at that point in the game. Much more important to have a chance of blocking a cop, or blocking a vig with scum in their sights.

But yes we misplayed Day 3 for sure. I should have just claimed VT. I suppose I thought I was finished, being first on Dylan's list, and thought I'd try something fun, and leave it up to Scola whether he wanted to contradict me or not. Wasn't sure whether he should or not, but in hindsight it was terrible (and those with more experience knew it was terrible without the hindsight). It was only as Day 3 ended that I started realising I was going to need to come up with some kind of cop result for the next day... 

[EFHW]

I can't find the speccy! Tried the url MiX posted. Can someone post link please?

[MiX]

Weird, it worked for me, but I guess I'm already in it.

Does this work?

[EFHW]

Weird, it worked for me, but I guess I'm already in it.

Does this work?

yes, thanks!

[WestCoastDidds]

It's so relatable, getting so drunk you think you're the mayor. Who among us hasn't had that happen at least once?

This post. Was funny. Then got funnier.

Agree! I love Joth so much.

[mathdude]

So this was the first game I've hosted. Mis-remembering the role from VT Joseph claiming Mayor aside... how was the balance?

I know after the claims, there were comments that there were about 2 PRs too many, but 2 of the claims were fake from scum.

Near the beginning, there was brief question of 2 or 3 scum, then it just became settled that there were 3 somehow. I was always planning RB and RoleCop for scum, but debated between 2 with weak Town (would have had Drunk, not Mayor, maybe 1 other role removed too), or 3 with strong Town which I ended up using, sort of.

As D1 begun, I wished I had given Doctor instead of Bodyguard, which could have made Vig more usable with the odd parity. Had Swowl saved as a Doc N1, the whole game would have been different, and Vig may have actually shot N2, or at least N4 if it lasted.

And a Cop instead of RoleCop would normally be better (but given the possibility of Insane Cop, plus if both Scum and Town RoleCops claimed, it would likely make a 1v1), so I though RoleCop was stronger here.

Overall, I felt balance was fair enough. Other opinions?

[infangthief]

I don't have enough experience to comment on balance really.
But I will say that I liked there being a small set of possible roles, including some novel ones. I guess you'll run another with the same set of possible roles at some point?

[faust]

My thoughts on balance are roughly that this would have been balanced had it been a 13-player game with 3 scum.

The town PRs weren't super strong, 1 IC-plus, 1 Rolecop, 1 Vig, 1 Bodyguard. It's decent but not unlike what you might get out of a C9++ setup with 4-5 non-T rolls. The scum roles provided a decent counter.

However, since there were only 11 players, I feel that town started at a disadvantage. In such situations I like to use Traitors, as they provide a way to implement something like 2.5 scum.

[mathdude]

I don't have enough experience to comment on balance really.
But I will say that I liked there being a small set of possible roles, including some novel ones. I guess you'll run another with the same set of possible roles at some point?

I might run another normal game with the same list of potential roles at some point. But I will definitely include some of those roles and variations on them in an RMM or BM game that I hope to run soon too.

[mathdude]

Also, we ran into an issue with Chatzy (first noticed in Scum chat)...

Without a premium account, you can only "look back" at so many messages.  The full chat is not available.  They talked so much, I actually had to ask for them to re-post night actions on N1, since they had posted them and then it disappeared from view before the end of the night.

So, I'm going to say Chatzy is probably not the solution to our QT problem.

I'm going to leave the scum and speccy rooms as-is for a bit.  But as the admin in those rooms, I'm able to delete messages.  I'm wondering if, when I delete recent messages, I will be able to view older messages.  Then I may just need to post the full room chats into the thread here.

Turns out "deleting" the messages just deletes them from view (for the "general public").  They still sit in my "review" pane, crossed out, and with the ability to restore them.  Deleting them does not let me see any older messages (without paying for a premium account, which I don't plan to do).

I recommend NOT using Chatzy going forward.

[mathdude]

Record of Night Actions:

N1:
scola kills Dylan (Swowl Bodyguard dies instead)
scola RB EFHW (no effect)
WCD inv. Swowl (protective role)
gkrieg inv. Dylan (day role)
Swowl prot. Dylan (successful, Swowl dies)

N2:
scola kills gkrieg (success)
scola RB faust (no effect)
WCD inv. faust (vanilla role)
gkrieg inv. faust (died before getting result)

N3:
WCD inv. EFHW (killing role)
fang kill Dylan (success)

[mathdude]

The full "'Twas the Night Before Christmas" poem from this game:

Twas the month before Christmas, when all through the house
not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse
The stockings were hung by the chimney with care
but they were all worried rats might see them there
The wee mice were nestled all snug in their beds
while visions of sharp cheddar danced in their heads
Momma had warned us, "watch out for that trap"
we were ready for shut-eye - a long winter night's nap
Before we could sleep, there arose such a clatter
so I sprang from my bed to see what was the matter
Accusations were flying.  Exile someone, they said
before I could do anything, MiX was dead
The sunrise was like magic on the new-fallen snow
but then it revealed what had happened below
When what to my wondering eyes did appear
but Swowl was found dead, making my eyes tear
With everything moving so lively and quick
I knew in a moment this must be a trick
More rapid than eagles, accusation and votes came
An exile was decided - Joseph2302 was his name
Now Pinky! now Fievel! now Minnie and Jerry!
On Nynaeve! on Mrs. Brisby! and on, Reepicheep!
To the top of the porch! to the top of the wall!
Now dash away! did you just see? gkrieg13 did fall!
As leaves that before the wild hurricane fly
When they meet clashing roleclaims, mount to the sky
So up to the housetop, arguments to work through
With a bag full of tricks, and all opinions heard too
And then, in a twinkling, I heard, no I saw
The prancing and pawing of a noodly mouse's paw
As I drew in my head, and was turning around
They exiled scolapasta, all tied up and bound.
Next morning, another was tied, from his head to his foot
And his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot
He was marred; he was mangled; he had scars on his back
Dylan32 had been killed, the rats had emptied out his pack
The rats - how they marveled.  Their disguises, so merry!
Their ploys and their plots and their plans made them cheery!
Rats took off mouse costumes, even the cute little bow,
The game was over before Christmas, time to play in the snow.
The rats smoked a pipe, held tight in their teeth;
And the smoke, it encircled their heads like a wreath.
They exiled faust today, then each patted his belly,
That shook when they laughed, like a bowl full of jelly.
I felt chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf,
And I smiled - the game's over - no help from myself.
A wink of the eye, and a twist of my head,
Soon gave me to know, I had nothing to dread.
I spoke not a word but went straight to work,
Typing the end of the game, then I turned with a jerk.
And laying my finger aside of my nose,
And giving a nod, I grabbed for a rose.
EFHW and jotheonah were endgamed - time for a whistle
infangthief and WestCoastDidds, rats were like a thistle.
Back to Real Life, I exclaimed, as I vanished from sight -
"Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night!"

[jotheonah]

Love it