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[faust]

faust, besides MiX, who is on your scummy list?

Why do you want to know?

Because I have you in my leaning town category, and I’d like to be able to either move you up or down. I think MiX is town, so that increases your scum likelihood. But it’s MiX, so it’s hard to know. I think Jimmmm is town, but I think you do, too, now. Do we agree on anyone else?

Ah sorry, I don't want to share more about my reads right now, they are also still quite volatile. I do not like the EFHW wagon.

[WestCoastDidds]

Ok, thanks

[faust]

Vote: joth

[MiX]

faust, besides MiX, who is on your scummy list?

Why do you want to know?

Because I have you in my leaning town category, and I’d like to be able to either move you up or down. I think MiX is town, so that increases your scum likelihood. But it’s MiX, so it’s hard to know. I think Jimmmm is town, but I think you do, too, now. Do we agree on anyone else?

Ah sorry, I don't want to share more about my reads right now, they are also still quite volatile. I do not like the EFHW wagon.

Vote: joth

This follow logically.

I agree with you.

[Jimmmmm]

I can think of one fool-proof way to work out Jim's alignment.

Me: "This oughta be good... Oh."

[Jimmmmm]

It's like the faust/Jimmmmm thing... if both town, scum would have happily let us all camp there the full D1.

In other words, if we're both Town, scum aren't the ones who led us away from camping there? Potentially useful if true.

[MiX]

It's like the faust/Jimmmmm thing... if both town, scum would have happily let us all camp there the full D1.

In other words, if we're both Town, scum aren't the ones who led us away from camping there? Potentially useful if true.

As someone that tried to do this: yes.

[EFHW]

No one else finds it scummy that Jimmmmm was exaggerating the argument? Or do you not believe him when now he says he wasn't angry?

Town Jimmmmm never posts this much. The deliberateness of his posts since the argument points to careful crafting.

[Jimmmmm]

No one else finds it scummy that Jimmmmm was exaggerating the argument? Or do you not believe him when now he says he wasn't angry?

By "lean into", I didn't mean exaggerate. I meant that at times when I thought, "Maybe I should just let it go because it's getting unproductive", I also thought, "No this is helping me engage with the game so it's helpful", and also that I was willing to use slightly stronger/blunter language that I would normally filter out, which presumably was what led you to ask why/if I was angry.

Town Jimmmmm never posts this much. The deliberateness of his posts since the argument points to careful crafting.

I never post this much, particularly Day 1. This game is, and I think will remain, an outlier. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about something on Day 1. This is the first game in which I've encountered faust's strategy, and while in future games I won't support it, I'll also avoid repeating all the arguments.

[mathdude]

Well, catching up took longer than expected. Iguana spamming the thread this afternoon didn't help... that was a lot more to read (and a few more things to respond to) than I expected.

So my reread of a few people, mentioned here...

Of the remaining 4, I'm still learning Jimmmmm. I'll go reread them each quick (after replying to a couple other posts here) and see if that changes.

... wil have to wait a few hours.

I'm disappointed in my mobile posting... a bunch of auto-corrects I'm noticing now that I didn't see when posting.  Mostly not affecting anything (like the word "wil" instead of "will", above), but there were 1 or 2 I noticed where I missed a word, or it completely changed a word.  I think the meanings are still there.

Anyway, sitting down with the laptop now, and CFL on the TV... instead of going to bed.  Let's see how far I can get.  Rereading those I was referring to above... time to look at EFHW, Jimmmmm, MiX, and also joth and faust.  Looks like more than 4!  Whose math is this?  (I think I meant 4 on top of Jimmmmm).

[mathdude]

I just re-read EFHW's posts.  As I was reading through, I kept thinking "that's scummy"... "so's that"... "I get why people called that out"... "I was called scummy for something like that".

But as I kept going, I began to realize that I agree with just about everything she has posted through the whole D1, and since I'm being called scummy for a few things, it's not surprising that people are calling her scummy too.

Early mild scum-read on Jimmmmm, an awareness and attempt to avoid getting locked into a 1 vs. 1 with Jimmmmm/faust, some concerns briefly raised with a few others, namely MiX and gkrieg, then cycling back and landing on Jimmmmm.

All in, everything EFHW has said makes sense to me.  I give her almost full town-cred at this point.

[mathdude]

Reading MiX next.  Stop posting so much!  Why can't you post a lot less like EFHW?  It was much easier looking through her posts.  Just kidding, it's helpful.

So far, not much that looks different than the usual MiX I'm used to seeing.  A few things (mainly strategy) I disagree with... though there are some things I agree with too.  A few reads on people I disagree with him about (such as his town-read on Jimmmmm through the faust/Jimmmmm ordeal), but that's par for the course.

Maybe there's a bit less random, "100% sure" posts than I've seen from him before.  Maybe he's being a little more careful this game?  There's actually a good amount of trying to keep discussions moving productively, not letting people lurk, calling out for opinions on people we hadn't heard much about, etc.

Then this:

Vote: MiX

the time has come.

oh no. i tried to do something productive. better return to wackyness.

Haha faust lock!town for being so stubborn!!!!!!1!!!!one. Hey faust, why oh why are you scumreading me? I'm so invested in this question and believe you will provide a satisfactory answer!

He realizes he may be being just a little too helpful and less like himself, then starts backing off again.

This strikes me as interesting:

The mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.

Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.

He points out my wagon at the time, calls the people lurkers, but deflects that call and says "I'm not calling them lurkers, it was faust who called them that".  It is true though that votes on me this game have been by people who haven't posted as much this game.

Then more towards the present, he's really hedging on the Jimmmmm vote.  Back to his usual self, absolutely confident that Jimmmmm is town.  (Who can be that sure at this point except scum?  Oh, right... MiX can too, regardless of alignment).  But when he says we might as well exile Jimmmmm if we have nothing else, to sort out people, it's like he seems to know a town result, and that that will make for another easy misexile for his team D2.

Maybe I'm just finally getting back to my usual "I always find MiX scummy", or maybe I'm onto something.  At this point in my re-reads, I'd say it's MiX or Jimmmmm, but almost guaranteed not both.  If MiX is town, he's misreading Jimmmmm.  If MiX is scum, he went too far in his confidence that Jimmmmm is town.

[Swowl]

Vote: joth

So this prompted me to do a re-read on Joth, because I don't get what you and MiX get at glance.
TLDR; I think Joth is playing too skummy to actually be skum. What am I missing here?

Joth:
#44 Hi Everybody - Not skummy. Not anything. What IS weird is the amount of skumminess that MiX was assigning to people for different reasons. Joth for using punctuation, Iguana for having a pre-determined vote? That is all nonsense. This is a Joth read though, will get to that later.

#56/#58 - all about mix and faust wagon and how he will over-react. These are weird posts. Especially because he assigns town points to MiX and Faust. So if you think you know what they are doing... and you think they are towny... why say that? That is moderately skummy.

#104 - "trying something new, which should be towny for reasons I am not going to explain". Totally lost. No clue why you would say that. Or why it should be assumed towny.

#108 - votes Math because Math wants wagons. I disagree that Math's way of looking at things is skummy, and I disagree with #110 "skum just wants to exile skum" to be applied vs town caring so early in the game... but ultimately, not skummy.

#129 - Asks faust to say more about having wagons being the best way to catch skum. That question is skummy. It deflects the conversation, he doesn't give any insight himself, and if it works (which it does) it gets a big ole' convo going about shit that just floods the thread. skummy.

#144 - TR on MiX and Didds. Null on MiX. Finds a nice way in a middle spot onto EFHW... who I think is skummy, so I guess that is not skummy. Or I am wrong about EFHW, in which case it could be skummy.

#163 - self aware post of possibly altering read on WCD. starting to talk myself into towny joth at this point.

#300 - Votes Jimmm. Switching from the only other wagon of EFHW. Reason being that the back and forth between faust and Jimmm was "enlightening" and that Jimmm came out skummy. Bias skum points simply because I disagree with 100% of the entire post. It was not enlightening, it was a waste of space about semantics (no offense, just my opinion). And Jimmm, if there is anyway to say someone is skummy when talking about a bunch of nothing, def did not come off skummy to me.

#301 - ok... follows it up with a decent reason on why he thought faust was towny and jimm was skummy. Still disagree, but def lessens the skumminess previously felt. 

#309 - "OMGUS is (almost) never a tactical decision. It's a way of expressing frustration. Granted, town can also get frustrated with town (or scum) but that usually happens when someone is being annoying or intransigent and I just don't see faust doing that. He's making good, cogent points in response to your criticism of caseless voting. So your frustration, expressed through an OMGUS vote, reads to me as scummy frustration at not being able to make progress dissolving a day one wagon on you." - this entire paragraph contradicts itself. This is skummy af imo. This is just trying to get a point across while not actually making a point in order to further push the person you want to push.

#312 - calls out faust on potentially trying to take advantage of TVT wagon situation. Which... he is just all over the map so far. IDK, up to now been thinking possibly protecting faust, but this would kind of throw that out the window.

#347 - says will join Math with no reasons given. this is right after they were asking people not to diverge off of current wagons, of which MAth was not one of them.

#406 - Calls skum team of MiX/Jimmm. Opens the door for a mix vote.

#412 - Lists reasons why Jimmm is skummy:
"-advocated for a policy exile in a really noncommittal way
-OMGUS voted for faust during their exchange
-been soft-defended by MiX in exactly the way that scum defends a partner (trying to deflect the exile without actually defending the player as townie).
1. Ok yes fair. But like a really smallllll thing imo. Not enough to deserve this tunnel.
2. already said, think that happens more as town than skum, so disagree.
3. againnnnnnn with the partnery day 1 thing which I just never see any reason for town to say out loud and see tons of reasons for skum to soft ball in there.

#449 - ok this is the cumulation post of explanations of why he thinks Jimmm is skummy that actually makes sense. I don't agree with all of it. But also it is towny.

#491 - gives credit to jimmm for mounting a defense that is good. However, does the efoo thing and chalks it up to "but jimmm could do it as skum". Then also adds in a partner pair possibility of Faust and Jimmm. THIS IS WHY THIS IS SUPER SKUMMY - There has been talk at this point of Jimmm/EFHW and there has been a bit of talk about MiX/Faust. That just opened the door to go for either MiX or Faust, as he already opened it for MiX multiple times earlier. It also goes way back on the previous read of Town!Faust vs Skum!Jimmm.

#511 - random move back to EFHW after hard tunneling Jimmm.

#551 - Now math is towny all of sudden?


TLDRX2; IDK. Almost everything there makes me want to say Joth is skummy af. The thing is... I also just don't think that Joth like... does that as skum. Especially after opening the game they way they did. I am trying to talk myself into skum, but I have to really try so I think I am a no go on Joth today.

PPE

[Jimmmmm]

Vote: MiX

the time has come.

oh no. i tried to do something productive. better return to wackyness.

Haha faust lock!town for being so stubborn!!!!!!1!!!!one. Hey faust, why oh why are you scumreading me? I'm so invested in this question and believe you will provide a satisfactory answer!

He realizes he may be being just a little too helpful and less like himself, then starts backing off again.

I read this as MiX sarcastically saying that faust was returning to wackyness. His next few posts after this one seem more productive than wacky.

[Jimmmmm]

faust, what changed in the 16 hours between these posts?

Yes, I'm sure exiling a scum will do a lot for our ability to see who the remaining scum is.

You don't think I'm scum?

Well, I believe you are more likely town than scum.

[Jimmmmm]

Also, here you're still arguing that I'm scum.

Basically I got a scum result on ash Night 1, and spent Day 2 arguing with him, waiting until most of the way through the Day before claiming the result.

Sorry, but I'm not convinced that a game in which you had a scum result on another player is the best comparison to this situation. Obviously you are going to be more forceful under those circumstances.

[Swowl]

I just re-read EFHW's posts.  As I was reading through, I kept thinking "that's scummy"... "so's that"... "I get why people called that out"... "I was called scummy for something like that".

But as I kept going, I began to realize that I agree with just about everything she has posted through the whole D1, and since I'm being called scummy for a few things, it's not surprising that people are calling her scummy too.

Early mild scum-read on Jimmmmm, an awareness and attempt to avoid getting locked into a 1 vs. 1 with Jimmmmm/faust, some concerns briefly raised with a few others, namely MiX and gkrieg, then cycling back and landing on Jimmmmm.

All in, everything EFHW has said makes sense to me.  I give her almost full town-cred at this point.

To bolded - I get what you are saying, but like... that is skummy right? Early shade for weak reasons. then says no 1v1 lock in. so they can't go back yet. then the faust/jimm thing ends and they back on Jimmm. How is that not skummy?

ppe jim

[mathdude]

Well, I was going to read joth next.  But it seems Swowl has just posted a full recap of joth's posts with commentary.  So I guess I'll just steal little bits from there instead of going back through everything myself.

The game opening by joth being "trying something new" does not strike me as townie.  As Swowl says, there are a lot of things that read as scummy, but I agree that this just isn't a joth thing to do, leaving so many scummy bits out there for us.  I think that makes it more likely that this is a careless town!joth than a scum!joth.

Until we get to this:

I would join this wagon.

After e votes for me an iguana joins, joth hypothetically wants to continue building a wagon on me.  But he wants to avoid that (apparently) dreaded 3rd vote on someone, so he tries to lure someone else into it first.

Then tunneling Jimmmm.  Then jumping wagons to EFHW.  Then I have no idea.  Then calling out partner pairs.  ... I'm not sure where to go with this?  I expected less "issues" from reading joth.  Sounds like a Traitor or a weird 3rd party to me, but pretty sure we don't have those here.

I guess I'll end by saying I find joth either definite scum, or definite town... but I have no idea which.  It's not one of those "in-the-middle, slightly leaning one way" deals.  Except that it is, because I don't know which way I'm leaning.  Not a viable wagon D1 at this point anyway here, so I'll check back again D2 if/when relevant.

[Jimmmmm]

TLDRX2; IDK. Almost everything there makes me want to say Joth is skummy af. The thing is... I also just don't think that Joth like... does that as skum. Especially after opening the game they way they did. I am trying to talk myself into skum, but I have to really try so I think I am a no go on Joth today.

Without actually having re-read joth (or even fully read this post), I'm feeling similarly. Something about his #490; it's either really Towny or really scummy, and I can't put my finger on which. The last two sentences suggest he's either genuinely trying to figure things out but some doubts are creeping in, or things didn't continue down the path he was expecting, so he needs to give himself the option to change tact without fully giving up on the Jim v faust thing.

[mathdude]

Time for faust.

He wanted to join me and make a real early wagon on MiX, but either I moved on too fast or he showed up too slow.  I don't know... NAI?

I don't like this at all:

MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.

If this were stated today, and we had very little discussion about MiX all D1, then it makes sense.  But it was early D1.  On its own, chalk it up to being faust.  Now combined with his desire to vote MiX early without actually doing it, looks like buddying to me.

[I'm fading here... it's too late for me to be up!]
Skimming the rest of faust's posts, looks on par with what I expect.  Like my "connection" to MiX, I disagree with a bunch of things he says, but that's normal.  Not much standing out.  Throwing votes onto MiX, and most recently joth seem on par.

I think I'm leaning town-ish for faust for now.

[Jimmmmm]

EFHW, do you think that getting angry, emotional etc is a scum- or Town-trait?

[mathdude]

Final comments on checking Jimmmmm again before my eyes close for good...

Still seeing the same as I was seeing before.  If this is a new town!Jimmmmm and we need to note this going forward that he really gets into it instead of just lurking, I think that's an overall win.  But to me, right now, it still sits as differents/scummy.

I do see some of his most recent posts (last 24 hours maybe) coming across as more genuine and townie, compared to the first 5 days.  But that's a read I can't break myself from at this point.  Maybe I just doubled down with a bias, but that's what it is then.

... back tomorrow.  And I'm sure there will be a flurry of night posts for me to read in the morning, as there always are.  Leaving my vote on Jimmmmm for now.  Probably willing to switch it over to MiX if that's where we want to go.

[Jimmmmm]

Still seeing the same as I was seeing before.  If this is a new town!Jimmmmm and we need to note this going forward that he really gets into it instead of just lurking, I think that's an overall win.  But to me, right now, it still sits as differents/scummy.

As mentioned previously, I doubt I'll have another Day 1 like this one. I do intend to only play when I can be reasonably active, but it's also about momentum for me; if I fall behind I generally stay behind for some time. I would say that of all the factors that determine my activity level, alignment may be on the list, but it's towards the bottom.

[faust]

faust, what changed in the 16 hours between these posts?

Yes, I'm sure exiling a scum will do a lot for our ability to see who the remaining scum is.

You don't think I'm scum?

Well, I believe you are more likely town than scum.

My read on you.

[Jimmmmm]

What changed your read on me?