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[Robz888]

This is the orientation post for Mafia 108: Lost Mafia by Robz and Mcmc.

Hello, new recruits! My name is Dr. Pierre Chang, and on behalf of everyone at the Dharma Initiative, and our sponsors, the Hanso Foundation and f.ds, let me be the first to welcome you to the island. We plan to enroll you in our exciting Pick Your Power setup, an open, modified, version of the protocol followed in Mafia 100. Please confirm your participation in our utopian social community (and indemnify us against legal responsibility in the unlikely event of your death due to an electromagnetic implosion or polar bear attack) by signing up below.

1. LaLight
2. Galzria
3. gkrieg
4. 2.71828.....
5. Archetype
6. Teproc
7. Witherweaver
8. IDontPlayThisGame
9. Datswan
10. Eevee
11. Qvist
12. ashersky
13. faust
14. SpaceAnemone
15. The_Wine_Merchant
16. Jimmmmm
17. O

Substitutes: RoadRunner7671, chairs

Before the game begins, you will undergo a psychological examination and aptitude test designed to evaluate your capabilities. You will then be ranked based on your responses. We assure you, this process is quite painless.

Next, it will be time to assign work orders! You can volunteer for a specific task by heading to the Dharma station affiliated with that job. New recruits who are interested in the medical profession, for instance, should visit the Staff Station. There are also several secret areas on the island where stranger jobs will be assigned, but this information is currently restricted to Dharma personnel with a security clearance of Level 8 or higher.

We urge you to ignore the rumor that the latest recruitment class actually consists of the time-traveling survivors of various shipwrecks and plane crashes. There is no truth to it.

Similarly, the theory that some members of the Dharma Initiative are actually Hostiles--indigenous native inhabitants bent on destroying us--is baseless. The Hostiles would never think of breaking our truce with them, and they are certainly not planning to purge us from the island. (We are the causes of our own suffering.)

Namaste, and good luck.



Rules:

This is a game. Everyone who signs up to play must be considerate of each other, never get personal, and focus on having fun. Once the game starts, having signed up is a commitment: inactivity is just as inconsiderate as rude comments. All players must have read, understood, and agreed to the Civility Pledge.

- No communication between players outside of the game thread or shared QTs at any time. This includes passing references, jokes, or cases in other games or threads, whether in context or not.
- If the game thread is locked, do not post. If you are unsure if something is locked, ask the mod by PM.
- Direct or verbatim quoting of mod-provided information is strictly forbidden. Paraphrasing is okay.
- Players must post once every 24-48 hours unless they have an announced V/LA. We are less strict about this than other mods, but please, if you agree to play the game, please play the game.
- Do not edit or delete posts, ever. If you need to clarify or correct something, post again.
- Invisible text, font size less than 10, and spoiler tags are not allowed. Do not use the same font colors as the mods.
- Cryptography is not allowed, which includes coded breadcrumbs. We are more strict about this than other mods. See this post for examples of things I consider to be cryptography. If you are trying to set up some kind of code, it's probably illegal, and you should ask me first.
- The time between a lynch being reached and a flip being provided is called twilight. All players may continue posting during this time, including the lynched player.
- Dead players may not post in thread or QT. A lynched player is not "dead" until a flip has been provided.
- Personal multimedia, such as video or audio recordings, are not allowed in the game thread.

The Voting Rules:
- Votes should be in this format: Vote: Playername. Votes must be bolded, must contain a colon, and there must be space between the colon and the player's name. Improperly formatted votes may or may not be counted, based on mod disrection. Unambiguous nicknames are acceptable.
- Unvotes should be in this format: unvote or Unvote: Playername.
- Unvotes are not required if changing your vote from oneplayer to another.
- You may vote: no lynch.
- Lynches occur when a simple majority (rounded up) of living players is reached. Once reached, a lynch cannot be undone.


The Rest:

- If you have an issue or problem with the game, please PM the mods. Do not post complaints in the game thread.
- Mods make mistakes - please point them out gently. If they can be corrected, they will. If irreversible, they will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
- Ask all questions and make all requests directly to the Mod via QT or PM. Questions deemed as "universal" (defined as questions for which the answers should be available to all players) will be requested to be re-posted in the Game Thread and answered there.
- Prods will be issued by request after 24-48 hours of inactivity unless otherwised covered by a VLA. Players are subject to replacement or modkill upon the third prod request.
- All rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, as determined by the mod.

Deadlines:
- Days will last seven IRL days.
- Nights will generally last two IRL days, but might in certain cases last longer.

[mcmcsalot]

They're coming, and you know what that means. It only ends once, everything else is just progress.

I have chosen all of you because you need this place as much as it needs you. But I wanted to give each of you something I never had, a choice. There are things at play here bigger than any of us.

Seek out what lies in the shadow of the statue.

[Robz888]

Setup

This game includes 12 Town-aligned Crash Survivors, 4 Mafia-Aligned Others, and 1 Serial Killer-aligned Smoke Monster.

-- All players will engage in a draft ordering process (as in Mafias 40 and 100). The method will not be explained ahead of time. The mafia team will be permitted to talk and collude at all stages of the drafting process, including the ordering.

-- Afterward, players will bid on power roles, which have been organized into slots. If multiple players bid on the same slot, even if they bid on different powers, the player with the lower position in the draft gets the power, and everyone else becomes a vanilla member of their faction.

-- In this game, kill flavor is indicative of role/alignment. Please note the following:

Others and the Day Vigilante kill with guns
The Smoke Monster kills by crushing victims to death
The Poisoner kills with poison
The Bomb kills by detonating an electromagnetic blast
Lynched players are crossed off Jacob’s list

All deaths fall under one of the above categories, and will be noted as such upon flip.

Alignment PMs are listed below.

Crash Survivors

You are a Crash Survivor! You arrived on the island by accident, and after it started skipping through time, you were mistaken for a Dharma Initiative recruit. You know how it ends for Dharma (not well), so you'd like to get out this situation as soon as possible.

You win when all threats to your faction have been eliminated. You lose if all Crash Survivors are dead, or if the Smoke Monster eliminates the Candidates and leaves the island.


Others

You are an Other! Your people have been known by many names over the years, including the Hostiles, the Natives, and simply, “Them.” You are here for a reason, though you're not quite sure what it is. In practice, you end up killing a lot of people.

You win when yours is the only faction left alive, or nothing can prevent this from happening. You lose if all Others are dead, or if the Smoke Monster eliminates the Candidates and leaves the island.

At night, one of the Others may perform the factional kill. You may also perform other actions if you received PRs from the draft.


Smoke Monster

You are the Smoke Monster! Your goal is to kill Jacob’s precious Candidates so that you are finally free to leave the island and extinguish the light… everywhere.

You win when all six Candidates have been eliminated and you are still alive. This is a difficult task, so you may take advantage of a number of special powers, or “loopholes.”

At night, you may perform the factional kill.

You are also an Even-Night Commuter and an Odd-Night Candidate Checker. On even nights, you may choose to commute. If you commute, you can take no other actions and all actions taken against you will fail.

On odd nights, you may choose another player to check and see if this player is a candidate. This is a unique action--it’s called a “check” rather than an investigation--and cannot fail or be mis-directed in any way, by any other power or status (including Investigation Immunity and Godfather).

Commuting and checking always succeed: they happen outside normal power resolution.

You may kill and check in the same night. You may not commute and kill in the same night.

You may also gain a PR from the draft.

It is possible for you to be one of the Candidates. If you are a Candidate, you do not have to kill yourself--you only have to eliminate the five other Candidates. You will have access to the Candidate QT, and can become the Leader of the Candidates. (Note: This will obsolete your Odd-Night Candidate Check power, since you will already know all the Candidates.)

For balance purposes, if you are a Candidate, and you eliminate the five other Candidates for the win, you must survive one additional game phase (day or night) after the last Candidate’s death.

This same condition applies if you choose the Recruit Mother PR and Mother is chosen as one of the Candidates. (You do not need to kill Mother, but you do need to survive an additional game phase after the other five are eliminated. See the Mother Role PM for additional info.)


Candidates (Any alignment)

Candidates are picked at random, independent of role or alignment, after all other phases of the draft have ended. The Serial Killer could even be a Candidate.
 
Candidates have a QT with day chat, but no night chat. During the day, they may vote amongst themselves for a Leader. Candidates cast their votes in private, in their own QTs, and may vote for themselves. The Leader—the Candidate who receives the most votes (or reaches 2 votes first in case of a tie)—may perform an investigative action that night; the Leader can investigate any player to learn whether this player is the Smoke Monster.
 
The Leader will receive the result: “Smoke Monster” if the target is the Smoke Monster, “Not Smoke Monster,” if not, or “No Result” if the action is thwarted.
 
The next day, the Candidates may select a different Leader, or the same one.

If the Smoke Monster dies, the Candidate QT locks permanently.



QTs

A note about QTs: It is illegal to quote directly from any QT into the main thread or another QT, other than a personal QT.

If a faction (other than town) has access to the Candidates QT--because one of its members is a Candidate--then the entire faction will receive access to the QT, though only the member who is a Candidate can post in it. If Others-aligned Player X is a Candidate, a link to the Candidate QT will appear in the Others QT.

Whenever a Candidate dies, a new QT for the Candidates will be sent out to all people entitled to access it. If all Others-aligned Candidates have been eliminated, then the new Candidates QT link would not be posted in the Others QT. The Others would lose access to the Candidates QT, but the surviving Candidates would not know that there were no more Others in their ranks.


Role Slots
 
The Hydra (Station One)
Jailkeeper
Godfather
 
The Arrow (Station Two)
Strongman (Others and SM only)
Gunsmith
 
The Swan (Station Three)
Masons (Town only)
Bomb
 
The Flame (Station Four)
Role Cop
1-Shot Day Vigilante
 
The Pearl (Station Five)
Watcher
Investigation Immune
 
The Orchid (Station Six)
2-Shot Redirector
Summon “Mother” (SM only)
 
The Staff (Station Seven)
Doctor
1-Shot Kill Proof
 
The Looking Glass (Station Eight)
Roleblocker
Bodyguard

The Tempest (Station Nine)
Poisoner
Ninja (Others and SM only)
 
The Lamp Post (Station Ten)
Double Shot Candidate Cop
Tracker
 
The Statue of Tawret
Protector of the Island
JOAT (1-shot Ninja, 1-shot Strongman, 1-shot Roleblocker)
 
The Bamboo Forest
Last Recruit
Day 2 Innocent Child (Town only)

The Cabin
1-Shot Disabler
Night 3 Forensic Scientist
 
The Dharma Initiative Barracks
Random
Random
Random

[Robz888]

Role PMs

Jailkeeper -- Sayid Jarrah

You are the Jailkeeper!

At night, you may target another player. That player’s actions will fail, and also, the player will be protected from a kill.

A jailed player can still be investigated. A jailed player cannot be poisoned, but can succumb to poison that was administered the previous night. If the Jailkeeper is roleblocked, the jailing will fail, even if the Jailkeeper targeted the Roleblocker.

Godfather -- Charles Widmore

You are the Godfather!

During Night 0, you may choose exactly which results the following investigative roles would receive if they targeted you. You may choose any role (including Vanilla) for the Role Cop, “Yes” or “No” for the Gunsmith, “Candidate” or “Not a Candidate” for the Double Shot Candidate Cop, and “Smoke Monster” or “Not Smoke Monster,” for the Leader’s investigation.

Strongman -- Martin Keamy

You are the Strongman!

If you perform a killing action, that action will succeed, even if you are blocked or your target is protected, unless multiple blocks or protections are deployed. The Strongman effect does not help against commuting, however.

Gunsmith -- Danielle Rousseau

You are the Gunsmith!

At night, you may target a player. You will learn if that player is capable of killing with a gun. You will receive the result, “Yes,” if the player is capable of killing with a gun, “No,” if not, and “No Result,” if your action is thwarted.

The 1-Shot Day Vigilante, and all Others, are capable of killing with guns.

Masons -- Jin and Sun Kwon

You are a Mason!

After the draft is finished, a random Vanilla Crash Survivor will become a fellow Mason. (If there are no VTs left, which is technically possible though unlikely, a random townie with a PR will be chosen. This townie will retain that PR and become a Mason.) You are confirmed town to each other. You will receive a QT with this player. This QT remains open at all times.

Bomb -- Desmond Hume

You are the Bomb!

If you are killed by any means other than a lynch, you will immediately be given the option of targeting a player and performing a killing action. That player will die, unless blocking or protection is in effect. You will not be told which player killed you, nor are you required to kill.

Role Cop -- James "Sawyer" Ford

You are the Role Cop!

At night, you may target a player. You will learn this player’s role, but not this player’s alignment. If the player does not have a role, you will receive the result “Vanilla,” regardless of that player’s alignment. If your action is thwarted, you will receive the result, “No Result.”

Both Masons will investigate as Masons.

If the Smoke Monster did not receive a role from the draft, the Smoke Monster will investigate as “Vanilla.” (The Even-Night Commuter / Odd-Night Candidate Checker status is not detected by the Role Cop.) If the Smoke Monster chose to Summon Mother, the Smoke Monster will investigate as “Vanilla,” but the player who became Mother will investigate as whatever PR this player chose from the three options presented (or “Vanilla,” if Mother was not able to choose a compatible PR).

1-Shot Day Vigilante -- Kate Austen

You are the 1-Shot Day Vigilante!

Once, during the day, you may target a player by posting Kill: X (where “X” is the player you wish to kill) in the main thread. This must be done in bold. The player you targeted will die immediately, unless otherwise protected.

This will not cause the day to end. It will reset all votes and extend deadline by 24 hours.

You cannot do this during twilight. Your kill command must be posted before a hammer vote is cast.

Shots are not recovered, even if they are prevented from succeeding.

Watcher -- Penelope Widmore

You are the Watcher!

At night, you may target another player. You will learn which players, other than you, targeted that player during this night.

If the player you watched was targeted by no one else, or your action was thwarted, you will receive the result, “No Result.”

Investigation Immune -- Benjamin Linus

You are Investigation Immune!

If you are targeted by a Gunsmith, Role Cop, Double Shot Candidate Cop, or the Leader’s investigation, you will return the result: “No Result.”

2-Shot Redirector -- Daniel Faraday

You are the 2-Shot Redirector!

At night, twice during the game, you may target two different players, designating them players A and B. You may self-target. You may target dead players. Whatever happens to Player A will instead happen to Player B.

If a Redirector is roleblocked or jailed, the action will fail, unless the Redirector opted to redirect actions taken against the Redirector to another player, in which case, the other player would be roleblocked or jailed.

Shots are not recovered, even if they are prevented from succeeding.

Summon “Mother”
 
You chose to summon “Mother.” You can only pick this option if you are the Smoke Monster.
 
A random Vanilla Crash Survivor will be converted to “Mother.” (If there are no VTs left, which is technically possible though unlikely, a random townie with an SK-compatible PR will be chosen.) Assuming Mother does not already have a PR, she will be presented with three random unchosen PRs (SK compatibility not guaranteed) and can choose one. Mother is a Smoke Monster-aligned player who shares the Smoke Monster’s win condition. Mother and the Smoke Monster receive a QT that is always open.
 
Mother cannot perform the factional kill, or any other killing action, unless the Smoke Monster is dead.

If the Smoke Monster dies, the faction can no longer win by eliminating all the Candidates. Instead, the faction wins in the traditional manner of an SK: by eliminating all other players. If Mother is the last player left alive, Mother and the Serial Killer win.

It is guaranteed that the Smoke Monster and Mother will not both be Candidates, though one could be. If Mother is a Candidate, the Smoke Monster does not need to kill Mother to satisfy their win condition.

Mother will investigate as “Smoke Monster” if successfully investigated by the Leader of the Candidates. The Candidates’ QT will not close unless both Mother and the Smoke Monster are dead.

Doctor -- Jack Shephard

You are the Doctor!

At night, you may target another player. That player will be protected from a kill.

This will not stop a player from being poisoned, but if a player would have succumbed to poison on the night you protect the player, the player will not die.

This will not stop a Strongman kill.

1-Shot Kill Proof -- Richard Alpert

You are 1-Shot Kill Proof!

Once at night, if you are targeted by a killing action that would have succeeded if not for this PR, you will survive. This power is passive. You do not need to activate it, and it cannot be blocked or redirected. It can, however, be disabled.

You will only survive a single successful killing action. You will succumb to multiple successful killing actions, or a Strongman kill.

This will not stop a player from being poisoned, but it will stop a player from succumbing to poison.

Roleblocker -- Ethan Rom

You are the Roleblocker!

At night, you may target a player. That player’s actions will fail.

If a Roleblocker and Jailkeeper target each other, only the Jailkeeper will be blocked. If a Roleblocker and 1-Shot Roleblocker target each other, only the 1-Shot Roleblocker will be blocked.

Bodyguard -- Boone Carlyle

You are the Bodyguard!

At night, you may target a player. If the player you targeted would have died that night, you will die instead.

Other actions will still affect the player you target. The player you target can still be poisoned, but if the player would have succumbed to poison, the player will live and you will die instead.

If the player you target is hit by multiple kills that would have been successful if not for the Bodyguard, then that player will die and you will die. If a Strongman kills your target, your target will die but you will live.

Poisoner -- Juliet Burke

You are the Poisoner!

At night, you may target a player. One full night later, that player will die.

If the player is protected on the night the player would succumb to poison, the player will survive. A jailed player cannot be poisoned, but a jailed player can succumb to poisoning.

Ninja -- Dogen

You are the Ninja!

If you perform a killing action, that kill will not be detected by a Tracker, Watcher, or the Night 3 Forensic Scientist.

Double Shot Candidate Cop -- Christian Shephard

You are the Double Shot Candidate Cop!

At night, you may target two player. You will learn whether those players are Candidates. You will receive the result “Candidate,” “Not a Candidate,” or “No Result” if the action was thwarted, for each target.

Tracker -- Eloise Hawking

You are the Tracker!

At night, you may target a player. You will learn which players were targeted by that player during this night.

If the player you tracked targeted no one, or your action was thwarted, you will receive the result, “No Result.”

Protector of the Island -- Hugo "Hurley" Reyes
 
You are the Protector of the Island!
 
Once, during any phase of the game (day or night), the Protector of the Island may choose to protect the Candidates by posting Protect: Candidates in the player’s personal QT. This action will automatically target all living Candidates. Until that phase is over, no Candidate can be killed.
 
This is a one-shot power. If used during the day, it will not retroactively prevent a Day Vigilante kill that happened before the protection was activated. It will protect Candidates from being lynched.
 
If used at night, it will fail if the Protector of the Island is roleblocked, jailed, or disabled, and it will not stop Strongman kills. The action can be tracked and watched. The protection can also be redirected if a Candidate is targeted by a 2-Shot Redirector.

Jack of All Trades -- Tom Friendly

You are the Jack of All Trades!

You are a 1-Shot Strongman, 1-Shot Ninja, and 1-Shot Roleblocker. Once, if you perform a killing action, you can choose to make it a Strong kill. The kill will succeed, even if blocked or protected, unless multiple blocks or protections are used.

Once, if you perform a killing action, you can choose to make it a Ninja kill. The kill cannot be tracked, watched, or detected by a Night 3 Forensic Scientist.

Once, at night, you may roleblock a player. This player’s actions will fail. If a Roleblocker and 1-Shot Roleblocker target each other, only the 1-Shot Roleblocker will be blocked. If a Jailkeeper and 1-Shot Roleblocker target each other, only the Jailkeeper will be blocked.

Last Recruit -- John Locke
 
You are the Last Recruit!
 
This means you will automatically be made one of the six Candidates. The other five Candidates will be determined randomly.
 
The other Candidates will not be told that you became a Candidate via a different selection method than they did.

Day 2 Innocent Child -- Aaron Littleton

You are the Innocent Child!

If you are still alive at the start of Day 2, the mod will publicly confirm you as Crash Survivors-aligned.

1-Shot Disabler -- Charlotte Lewis

You are the 1-Shot Disabler!

Once, at night, you may disable one of the following categories of PRs. All of those PRs will fail.

Protecting (Doctor, 1-Shot Kill Proof, Protector of the Island)
Blocking (Jailkeeper, Roleblocker, 1-Shot Roleblocker)
Investigating (Gunsmith, Role Cop, Double Shot Candidate Cop, Leader’s investigation)
Observing (Tracker, Watcher, Night 3 Forensic Scientist)
Redirecting (2-Shot Redirector)

This action will fail if you are blocked or jailed, unless “blocking” was the category you chose to disable.

Jailkeeper falls solely under the “blocking” category. If blocking is disabled, all aspects of the Jailkeeper’s power will fail, including the protection. But if protection is disabled, a Jailkeeper could still protect a player.

Shots are not recovered, even if they are prevented from succeeding.

Night 3 Forensic Scientist -- Miles Straume

You are the Night 3 Forensic Scientist!

During Night 3, you may target one dead player. You will be told the names of all players (other than you) who targeted this player at any point during the game.

If a Ninja kill was used against the player you targeted, this action would not be detected by the Night 3 Forensic Scientist.

Dharma Initiative Barracks

You have chosen to visit the Dharma Initiative Barracks!

You will be presented with three random roles that were unclaimed during the draft. You may choose one of these roles for yourself.

There is no guarantee that the roles will be of use to you, or compatible with your alignment.

For balance purposes, all Others-aligned and Smoke Monster-aligned players will be told exactly which roles were presented here.

[Robz888]

Secondary Win Conditions

Each player will receive the secondary “flavor” win condition corresponding with the role they received from the draft. All players, regardless of alignment, will also be assigned a “fake” VT flavor win condition that can be safely claimed without risk of counterclaim. If you did not receive a power role from the draft, then the VT secondary wincon becomes your actual secondary wincon.

Some secondary "flavor" win conditions are much more difficult to meet than others. A few will be impossible to meet if certain other roles are not present in the game. These are purely for fun; meeting the win condition will not impact the outcome of the game.

You will not be told whether you fulfilled your flavor win con until the end of the game.


Jailkeeper - Sayid Jarrah
“My name is Sayid Jarrah and I am a torturer.”
Your secondary wincon is to jail Benjamin Linus.

Godfather - Charles Widmore
“That island is mine, Benjamin. It always was. It will be again.”
Your secondary wincon is to kill Alex Rousseau while having outlived Benjamin Linus.

Strongman - Martin Keamy
“I’ve never really been one for talk.”
Your secondary wincon is to successfully kill at least three players.

Gunsmith - Danielle Rousseau
“Know this: he will lie. A long time, he will lie.”
Your secondary wincon is to successfully investigate an Other, and then lynch that Other while you are still alive.

Masons - Jin and Sun
“You don’t know what my husband is capable of.”
Your secondary wincon is this: if the game ends, and Jin is still alive, Sun’s condition is fulfilled. If the game ends, and Sun is still alive, Jin’s condition is fulfilled.

Bomb - Desmond
“See you in another life, brother.”
Your secondary win condition is this: you win if you ever successfully use your bomb power to kill a player who does not share your alignment, or if Penelope Widmore watches you.

Role Cop - James “Sawyer” Ford
“That’s for taking the kid off the raft.”
Your secondary wincon is to participate in the lynch of Tom Friendly.

One Shot Day Vigilante - Kate Austen
“I saved you a bullet.”
Your secondary wincon is this: if the game ends and you have not killed any townies, you win.

Watcher - Penelope Widmore
“I’ll find you.”
Your secondary wincon is to watch Desmond Hume.

Investigation Immune - Benjamin Linus
“What was so wrong with me? What about me?”
Your secondary wincon is to find and kill Penelope Widmore while having outlived Charles Widmore.

2 Shot Redirector - Daniel Faraday
“Rescuing you and your people… I can’t really say it’s our primary objective.”
Your secondary wincon is to successfully redirect two actions.

Summon Mother - Mother
The player who becomes Mother will receive the secondary wincon affiliated with the PR she chooses.

Doctor - Jack Shephard
“I didn’t fix you. You fixed me.”
Your secondary wincon is to successfully prevent a night kill.

1 Shot Kill Proof - Richard Alpert
“I don’t want to die… I want to live forever.”
Your secondary wincon is to survive to the end of the game.

Roleblocker - Ethan Romm
“If you do not stop following me, I will kill one of them.”
Your secondary wincon is to successfully block four night actions.

Bodyguard - Boone
“I’m letting you off the hook.”
Your secondary wincon is to die in place of a Candidate.

Poisoner - Juliet Burke
“Free will is all we’ve got, right? (It has to look like an accident.)”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if Benjamin Linus succumbs to poison, or if James “Sawyer” Ford role cops you.

Ninja - Dogen
“It is sundown. Will you choose to stay or go?”
Your secondary wincon is this: You win if you are ever elected Leader of the Candidates, or if the Leader of the Candidates chooses to investigate you.

Double Shot Candidate Cop - Christian Shepherd
“Some people are just supposed to suffer.”
You secondary wincon is this: you win if you successfully investigate all the Candidates, or if Jack fails to save anyone from dying.

Tracker - Eloise Hawking
“The universe, unfortunately, has a way of course-correcting.”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if you track someone who targets Daniel Faraday, or if you track Charles Widmore.

Protector of the Island - Hugo “Hurley” Reyes
“Let’s look death in the face and say, ‘whatever, man.’”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if someone tries to kill a Candidate while the Candidates are under your protection.

JOAT - Tom Friendly
“This is our island. And the only reason you’re living on it is because we let you live on it.”
Your secondary wincon is to never be “caught” as scum (i.e., because you were investigated, or observed doing something incriminating).

The Last Recruit - John Locke
“Don’t tell me what I can’t do.”
Your secondary wincon is to never be lynched.

Day 2 Innocent Child - Aaron Littleton
“...”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if neither Claire Littleton nor Kate Austen are killed.

1-Shot Disabler - Charlotte Lewis
“This place is death!”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if you successfully disable at least one player.

Night Three Forensic Scientist - Miles Straum
“Don’t worry, 80% of the people on this boat are lying about something.”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if the you participate in the lynch of the person who killed the player you observed on Night 3.


Vanillas:

Claire Littleton
“My baby!”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if Aaron Littleton is still alive on Day 3.

Alex Rousseau
“Please, Daddy! Please.”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if you outlive Keamy.

Rose Nadler
“If you say 'live together, die alone' to me, Jack, I'll smack you across the face.”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if both you and Bernard are still alive at the end of the game.

Bernard Nadler
“Now that’s karma. We must be the good guys.”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if both you and Rose are still alive at the end of the game.

Charlie Pace
“Guys, where are we?”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if you write “NOT PENNY’S BOAT” in the main thread in all capital letters.

Shannon Rutherford
“Why don’t you believe me? I need you to believe me.”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if you find your inhaler. Once, during each phase of the game, you may post in your personal QT: search X (where X is one of the Dharma stations or locations). The inhaler will be at one of these places (at random).

Ana-Lucia Cortez
“You tell anyone about this, and I'll kill you.”
Your secondary win con is this: you win if you are the hammer vote.

Libby
“Michael?”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if you are nightkilled.

Walt Lloyd
“Don’t open that thing. Don’t open it.”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if you find Vincent. Once, during each phase of the game, you may post in your personal QT: search X (where X is one of the Dharma stations or locations). Vincent will be at one of these places (at random).

Michael Dawson
“WAAAAAALT!”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if you build the raft by recruiting two of Sawyer, Jin, and Kate. Once, during each night, you may post in your personal QT: recruit playername (you will not be told the the flavor name of the player you recruit nor when you have completed this wincon).

Frank Lapidus
“We’re not going to Guam, are we?”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if at least six other players meet their secondary wincons.

Cindy Chandler
“We’re here to watch.”
Your secondary wincon is to live to the end of the game.

Mr. Eko
“Take me to the question mark.”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if the church is built. Every time a player ends the day not voting for someone 1/15 of the church is built.

Nikki
“[Something something diamonds.]”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if you outlive Paolo.

Paolo
“[Something something diamonds.]”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if you outlive Nikki.

Dr. Leslie Arzt
“Did you hear about the guy who invented nitroglycerin? He blew his freakin' face off!”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if you are on wagon for three scum lynches.

Naomi
“Tell my sister I love her.”
Your secondary wincon is this: you win if at least six players do not meet their secondary wincons.

[Galzria]

Iiiin

[LaLight]

/in

[Robz888]

New recruit LaLight is so fast, he disrupted the mods' intended-to-be-back-to-back-we-even-timed-it posts. That's the kind of enthusiasm we love, here at the Dharma Initiative!

(We'll see how eager is after a visit to Room 23...)

Namaste!

[gkrieg13]

In

[LaLight]

New recruit LaLight is so fast, he disrupted the mods' intended-to-be-back-to-back-we-even-timed-it posts. That's the kind of enthusiasm we love, here at the Dharma Initiative!

(We'll see how eager is after a visit to Room 23...)

Namaste!

I have no idea what you're talking about :x

[2.71828.....]

/in

[Archetype]

IN

[Teproc]

/in

[Qvist]

How regularly should I check the thread or post, do be valuable? I know it says around once per day, but I guess that is the bare minimum, what is the current normal etiquette?

[Robz888]

How regularly should I check the thread or post, do be valuable? I know it says around once per day, but I guess that is the bare minimum, what is the current normal etiquette?

Difficult to answer this, since quality and quantity vary wildly from player to player. As long as you are meeting the official requirements, and contributing in some helpful way from time to time, you are good.

You are expected to regularly read the thread and understand what's going on, even if you aren't saying much, though. And this is a larger game, so there's more to read. I wouldn't underestimate the commitment, though it's okay to check out for a while and then check back in.

And... Namaste.

[mcmcsalot]

How regularly should I check the thread or post, do be valuable? I know it says around once per day, but I guess that is the bare minimum, what is the current normal etiquette?

You must check in with your Dharma recruiter once every 48 hours unless you have previously scheduled vacation time. However, living in the moment is an invaluable characteristic, when one of us falls behind we all fall behind. Please understand the commitment that will be asked of you not only by a higher power but also by your peers.

[Witherweaver]

I suppose I will

/in

[IDontPlayThisGame]

/in

[Robz888]

We received word from Ann Arbor that we are permitted to declassify additional setup info. Alignment PMs are now available. Namaste.

[schadd]

tag except it's a reference to the popular television show lost

[Teproc]

Ah, so this is a season 5 thing. Not my favorite but cool.

[Swowl]

/in

[Eevee]

Seems every time I try to take a break, something too awesome to pass on appears on the sign up lists.

/mustin

[Galzria]

Seems every time I try to take a break, something too awesome to pass on appears on the sign up lists.

/mustin

Yay!

[Witherweaver]

Seems every time I try to take a break, something too awesome to pass on appears on the sign up lists.

/mustin

[Archetype]

We received word from Ann Arbor that we are permitted to declassify additional setup info. Alignment PMs are now available. Namaste.

This is already looking so awesome

[Qvist]

I have the feeling that I might regret if I don't /in, so I will do it for now. If someone else wants the spot, he can have it though.

/in

[ashersky]

/in

[IDontPlayThisGame]

For balance purposes, if you are a Candidate, and you eliminate the five other Candidates for the win, you must survive one additional game phase (day or night) after the last Candidate’s death.

This same condition applies if you choose the Recruit Mother PR and Mother is chosen as one of the Candidates. (You do not need to kill Mother, but you do need to survive an additional game phase after the other five are eliminated. See the Mother Role PM for additional info.)

Lost the color in the quote. What happens if the Smoke Monster and Mother are Candidates?

[Robz888]

For balance purposes, if you are a Candidate, and you eliminate the five other Candidates for the win, you must survive one additional game phase (day or night) after the last Candidate’s death.

This same condition applies if you choose the Recruit Mother PR and Mother is chosen as one of the Candidates. (You do not need to kill Mother, but you do need to survive an additional game phase after the other five are eliminated. See the Mother Role PM for additional info.)

Lost the color in the quote. What happens if the Smoke Monster and Mother are Candidates?

Thank you for your question! As Alvar Hanso says, "Asking a question is like opening a box--and whatever your heart desires, there it will be."

It is guaranteed that the Smoke Monster and Mother will not both be Candidates, only one of them can be. This will be stated somewhere in the setup info--possibly it's in the Mother role description and unavailable right now--if it has not been stated already.

[faust]

/in

[SpaceAnemone]

/in :-)

[IDontPlayThisGame]

For balance purposes, if you are a Candidate, and you eliminate the five other Candidates for the win, you must survive one additional game phase (day or night) after the last Candidate’s death.

This same condition applies if you choose the Recruit Mother PR and Mother is chosen as one of the Candidates. (You do not need to kill Mother, but you do need to survive an additional game phase after the other five are eliminated. See the Mother Role PM for additional info.)

Lost the color in the quote. What happens if the Smoke Monster and Mother are Candidates?

Thank you for your question! As Alvar Hanso says, "Asking a question is like opening a box--and whatever your heart desires, there it will be."

It is guaranteed that the Smoke Monster and Mother will not both be Candidates, only one of them can be. This will be stated somewhere in the setup info--possibly it's in the Mother role description and unavailable right now--if it has not been stated already.

Got it. I'll wait until after the set-up's been posted to ask more questions.

[Jimmmmm]

/in

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Apparently /ins in the forum game queue don't count?

Glad I made it in time. I was swamped all day at work.

[Jimmmmm]

Shouldn't this have been, say, a 15- or 16-player game?

[O]

/in with a small chance I might back out but hopefully not

[gkrieg13]

I think that has to be a record for the quickest game to fill.  Just over 9 hours.

[mcmcsalot]

thank you all for coming, even though these names have been written in the signup list people may still chose to be substitutes who may be called to the island

[Robz888]

Due to a security breach at the Orchid Station, we have decided to release all information relating to job assignments.

And if anyone comes across a rabbit with a number 4 painted on it, please run (do not walk) as quickly as you can in the other direction...

Oh, and Namaste.

[faust]

Do Candidates flip when they die?

What happens if all Candidates vote for themselves as leader?

[Robz888]

Do Candidates flip when they die?

What happens if all Candidates vote for themselves as leader?

At the Dharma Initiative, we believe in demystifying the supernatural. All players will be fully identified upon flip, including whether or not they were considered a "Candidate" by a certain fictitious island deity. (God loves you as He loved Jacob.)

If no "Candidate" reaches 2 votes, there will be no Leader. But just because the votes are cast in secret does not mean the Candidates need to keep secret their intentions regarding who they plan to vote for.

On Hydra Island, we put six polar bears in a cage and explained these rules to them. Do you know how long it took them to effectively pick a leader? Two hours.

Namaste, and good luck.

[ashersky]

Can anyone bid on faction-only powers even if they aren't that faction?

[Teproc]

Given that we're full already: when is this expected to start ?

[2.71828.....]

Given that we're full already: when is this expected to start ?

Yeah. Don't really want to wait for the 22nd....

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm going to be away VLA-ish at a conference from 9th-15th Sept. The degree to which I'm present will depend on conference/airbnb wifi, whether or not the tourist sim I've ordered actually arrives before I leave, and probably the weather.

[Robz888]

Can anyone bid on faction-only powers even if they aren't that faction?

No. Select tasks are restricted to certain players. If a task says "Town only" that means only the town can bid on it.

[Robz888]

I am taking the submarine off-island for some research in the great state of California this weekend and will be semi-VLA all next week myself... but I don't see any reason not to start in the next 24 hours, as long as there are no objections?

[Teproc]

None from me. I don't know if Space's V/LA counts as such ?

[2.71828.....]

None from me. I don't know if Space's V/LA counts as such ?

D1 pass for space.

[Witherweaver]

None from me. I don't know if Space's V/LA counts as such ?

D1 pass for space.

Scummy.

[faust]

None from me. I don't know if Space's V/LA counts as such ?

As long as Space thinks they can meet the once per 24 hours posting requirement during that time, I'd say we can start then.

[ashersky]

Can anyone bid on faction-only powers even if they aren't that faction?

No. Select tasks are restricted to certain players. If a task says "Town only" that means only the town can bid on it.

Only 1 Role per slot possible in the game, correct?

[Robz888]

Can anyone bid on faction-only powers even if they aren't that faction?

No. Select tasks are restricted to certain players. If a task says "Town only" that means only the town can bid on it.

Only 1 Role per slot possible in the game, correct?

That is correct. This has been clarified in the setup post. If multiple players visit the same station, the lowest-draft person will get that job and everyone else will become vanilla.

But do not fear! We need plenty of Dharma janitors, of course. Namaste.

[ashersky]

Can anyone bid on faction-only powers even if they aren't that faction?

No. Select tasks are restricted to certain players. If a task says "Town only" that means only the town can bid on it.

Only 1 Role per slot possible in the game, correct?

That is correct.

Why do all of the responses to my questions lack the namaste closing?

[Robz888]

Can anyone bid on faction-only powers even if they aren't that faction?

No. Select tasks are restricted to certain players. If a task says "Town only" that means only the town can bid on it.

Only 1 Role per slot possible in the game, correct?

That is correct.

Why do all of the responses to my questions lack the namaste closing?

See above. I have now answered your question more fully.

And Namaste, damn it.

[Robz888]

All pertinent information has been declassified. Please head to the Pala Ferry for transportation to Room 23. Thank you. Namaste, and good luck!

[2.71828.....]

Secondary win conditions based on flavor? This just gets better and better

[ashersky]

NOT PENNY'S BOAT

Just in case.

[SpaceAnemone]

None from me. I don't know if Space's V/LA counts as such ?

As long as Space thinks they can meet the once per 24 hours posting requirement during that time, I'd say we can start then.

Hopefully? I'm going to a pretty compsci-oriented conference... there's often a shortage of good enough wifi for hundreds of laptop-and-phone-wielding attendees at those, in my experience. So I've ordered a tourist sim (annoyingly roaming in Canada is just impossibly expensive on my normal UK provider), but it hasn't yet been delivered, and it's meant to come to my office, so I need it to arrive in the next 24 hours now :-/ And there's supposed to be wifi at my airbnb, but my host isn't even going to be there, so if there's a problem I'm not really sure what I'm doing :-P

But yeah, that aside, I'm really hoping to be able to post at least once per 24 hours. Once per day is not so different from my usual D1 anyway ;-)

[ashersky]

There are Starbuckses in Canada, I'm sure.

[Eevee]

There are Starbuckses in Canada, I'm sure.

Tim Hortons!

[Robz888]

We will begin administering the psychological examination shortly. For your comfort and convenience, we will be taping your eyelids open and strapped you to your chairs for the duration of your time in Room 23. You're welcome.

Namaste, and good luck!

Thread locked.

[Robz888]

All players should have received a personal QT detailing their alignment. Next, we will determine the draft order. Let the social experimentation begin!

(Plant a good seed and you will joyfully gather fruit.)

To confirm receipt of your QT, and determine your place in the draft, you only have to do one thing: Submit a number (in your QT) between 1 and 99 (1 and 99 are acceptable choices).



The goal is to have a unique "Lost" number (these numbers are 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, and 42), or the closest unique number. If someone picks the number you picked, you get moved to the back of the draft along with that person. If two people picked your number, all three of you move even further back. Ties in draft position are broken randomly. It works like this:

-- Unique Lost numbers (4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42 -- low beats high)
-- Unique non-Lost numbers, ranked by “score,” where your score is the difference between your number and the closest Lost number. Again, low number beats high. “7” and “41” both have a score of one, but 7 is lower than 41, so 7 wins.
-- Duplicate Lost numbers (low beats high)
-- Duplicate non-Lost numbers, ranked by score as above
-- Triplicate Lost numbers
-- Triplicate non-Lost numbers
-- And so on

Also, for every Lost number chosen by zero people in the draft, the Smoke Monster’s effective draft position will improve by one. (At max, if none of the Lost numbers are chosen, the Smoke Monster’s draft position will improve by six.)

Note: The mafia team will be allowed to communicate during the number-picking phase and drafting phase.

Please make your choices in the next 24 hours. Thank you. Namaste.

[Robz888]

LOUDSPEAKER: ROGER LINUS, REPORT TO HYDRA ISLAND. ROGER LINUS, CLEAN UP ON HYDRA ISLAND. SOMEONE ATE TOO MANY FISHBISCUITS (IT WASN'T THE BEARS) AND HAD AN ACCIDENT.

New recruits, you are now free to leave Room 23. No, not that way, that's just a wall, it only looks like a glowing donut to you because the psychological imprinting hasn't warn off yet (it never will).

You will receive your draft number shortly. You are then free to visit a Dharma station or island location to claim an associated job.

Please submit your bids in the next 24 hours. Remember that the highest-priority draftee wins the station, and lower-priority draftees who attended that location will lose out, even if they pursued a different task.

Namaste.

[Robz888]

Work requests have been received and allocated! Unfortunately, a malfunction involving the sonar fence has occupied our attention this weekend. But Stuart Radzinsky assures me it will be operational later this afternoon, at which point the new recruits will receive their assignments. Stay tuned!

In the meantime, until the fence is repaired, if you happen to see any suspicious activity-- such as a murderous cloud of black smoke, or your deceased relatives--please report it to security. Namaste.

[Robz888]

All players have now been informed of their work orders. Please acknowledge receipt of this information in your QTs, if you have not already done so.

The phrasing looked something like this if you received a role from the draft:

You are [Flavor Name corresponding to role], the [Alignment]-aligned [Role]. (Your fake claim is [random unique Vanilla Crash Survivor].)

Or like this, if you did not:

You are [Alignment, if not Crash Survivor] the [random unique Vanilla Crash Survivor].

The Candidates have also been informed that they are Candidates, and received their QT, though they are not allowed to talk to each other until Day 1 begins. If you did not receive a link to the Candidate QT, you are not a Candidate.

The game will begin tomorrow, Monday, September 11th, at 3:00 PM Forum Time.

Namaste!

[Robz888]

Due to an error with the setup, the moderators have made the following rule: Henceforth, it is illegal to claim the number you chose in the draft, or imply or breadcrumb it, in any way. (Remember that non-obvious breadcrumbs are restricted, in any case, as a form of cryptography.) You may not claim whether it was a Lost number or not. You may not provide any information to assist another player in deducing it. The number you picked is redacted information.

This goes for the main thread and the Candidates QT. (The restriction does not exist in the Mafia QT, and any theoretical QT, such as the Smoke Monster and Mother, and the Masons, where such information would have already been revealed.)

You may claim your position in the draft, however.

This rule will be ruthlessly enforced. Modkills will be in effect for the slightest infraction. As always, if you have any questions about what you are allowed to post, let the mods preview it.

The game begins soon. Namaste.

[Robz888]

A few announcements:

1. Please read the mod note above. We will be very strict about this. Preview any borderline posts with the mod first. Even discussing what you think would have been the optimal numbers-picking strategy could, in some cases, violate the rule.

2. The rec room is currently closed. Oldham has reserved it for the afternoon. We are sorry for the inconvenience.

3. New recruits, please remember that picture day is later this week!

4. There is no truth to the rumor that we are interrogating a captured Hostile in the rec room. None whatsoever.

5. All outgoing phone calls to off-island family members must be routed through the Flame station. You must make an appointment with Stuart Radzinksy before doing so. Stuart encourages Dharma personnel to request appointments no more often than once per year. And I would add, we hope that you think of Dharma as your family, now. The submarine is happy to transport your letters off-island, however.

6. The Dharma Initiative reserves the right to read your mail.

7. Personnel who claimed to hear screams of "No! Please! No more! I'll tell you everything!" coming from the rec room may be suffering from a tropical illness that affects the ears. Please feel free to visit the Staff station on your day off.

8. Day 1 begins now! Thread unlocked. Namaste, and good luck!

[LaLight]

NOT PENNY’S BOAT for lulz

vote: ashersky

[LaLight]

so, sxum is provided vanilla fakeclaims. So all PRs if unconested are effectively ICs. Nice.

[LaLight]

massclaim anyone?

[LaLight]

request: Vote Count

who's playing this btw

[LaLight]

actually I am very ill, so I will go to sleep. I hope some scumz will be lynched when I'll be back!

[2.71828.....]

so, sxum is provided vanilla fakeclaims. So all PRs if unconested are effectively ICs. Nice.

False.

All PRs are given vanilla fake claims. PRs are given independent of alignment (except a few)

LaLight is town though

[Eevee]

This is going to be chaotic. So many people!

[Galzria]

Eevee!

[Galzria]

I am super excited about this game.

Also, I have thoughts on both generic flavor discussion, and generic PR discussion.

[faust]

I had a plan...

and then Robz broke it

Now I need to think about this.

[gkrieg13]

Well hello everyone!  I'm super excited for this game, but have work and class and stuff.  I also have no plan now that Robz made that ruling, although it was obviously broken otherwise.  Now I just have to figure out why...

[2.71828.....]

My plan was to catch scum. Which I am doing. Already eliminated LaLight as scum, and now gkrieg and faust are higher priority suspects.

Perfect!

[gkrieg13]

My plan was to catch scum. Which I am doing. Already eliminated LaLight as scum, and now gkrieg and faust are higher priority suspects.

Perfect!

Why?

[2.71828.....]

Not a fan of the "no plan since the ruling happened" posts from you and faust.

[Witherweaver]

so, sxum is provided vanilla fakeclaims. So all PRs if unconested are effectively ICs. Nice.

Huh?

[faust]

One plan at can say is that I will do everything in my power to see anyone dead who plays toward their secondary win condition at the cost of their primary win condition.

[gkrieg13]

Not a fan of the "no plan since the ruling happened" posts from you and faust.

Well obviously I can't tell you what my plan was. 

I think we should all claim order in the draft.  Mafia is much more likely to get draft positions in the front of the draft, and the Smoke Monster essentially can't be in the last few positions in the draft.

[Witherweaver]

I had a plan...

and then Robz broke it

Now I need to think about this.

How would it have worked?

[2.71828.....]

One plan at can say is that I will do everything in my power to see anyone dead who plays toward their secondary win condition at the cost of their primary win condition.

But, but... secondary win cons look so cool

[2.71828.....]

I agree that we should all claim draft position.

I was #12

[2.71828.....]

Not a fan of the "no plan since the ruling happened" posts from you and faust.

Well obviously I can't tell you what my plan was. 

I think we should all claim order in the draft.  Mafia is much more likely to get draft positions in the front of the draft, and the Smoke Monster essentially can't be in the last few positions in the draft.

Less talking more claiming.

Do not claim your role though. We don't want that

[2.71828.....]

I agree that we should all claim draft position.

I was #12

I was caught as SK in M100 due to draft position claiming. I don't know if that will work here (doubtful) but I am convinced claiming draft position doesn't hurt town

[ashersky]

I think we should NEVER lynch Candidates.

Queue outrage and scumreading from everyone.

[2.71828.....]

I think we should NEVER lynch Candidates.

Queue outrage and scumreading from everyone.

Add "until we kill the smoke monster" and I will agree with you, Mr. Candidate

[gkrieg13]

I was #10 in the draft

[O]

Vote: Gkrieg

FOS everyone who's claiming draft orders without a substantial discussion beforehand.

[Galzria]

Thoughts on generic flavour:

Once all draft flavors were assigned, Robz had a choice on assigning the remaining flavor roles. He could have:

A) Chosen the remaining flavor roles 100% randomly
B) Chosen the remaining flavor roles that had corresponding secondary win conditions that fit with known  (to him) flavors that exist within the game.

It's quite possible that he did either. But it would be less fun as a player to be given a flavor that has no means of completing a secondary win condition, so I'm inclined to believe the latter to be true.

Given this, I think it would be reasonable for certain flavors to expect other certain flavors to be present. More to the point, I think it's reasonable for town to make educated guesses on the matter as the game goes on and we begin to discover more identities.

Some secondary win conditions are VT -> PR, some PR - VT, some PR -> PR, some VT -> VT, and some have solo objectives.

[O]

Also I'd like everyone to know that I'm town.

[2.71828.....]

Vote: Gkrieg

FOS everyone who's claiming draft orders without a substantial discussion beforehand.

Here is your substantial discussion

I agree that we should all claim draft position.

I was #12

I was caught as SK in M100 due to draft position claiming. I don't know if that will work here (doubtful) but I am convinced claiming draft position doesn't hurt town

Vote: O

[2.71828.....]

Also I'd like everyone to know that I'm town.

But I just voted you since you are scum

[Galzria]

Why are we giving scum our Draft order? So they can know who beat them to the PR's they bid on? Seems reasonable.

[2.71828.....]

Thoughts on generic flavour:

Once all draft flavors were assigned, Robz had a choice on assigning the remaining flavor roles. He could have:

A) Chosen the remaining flavor roles 100% randomly
B) Chosen the remaining flavor roles that had corresponding secondary win conditions that fit with known  (to him) flavors that exist within the game.

It's quite possible that he did either. But it would be less fun as a player to be given a flavor that has no means of completing a secondary win condition, so I'm inclined to believe the latter to be true.

Given this, I think it would be reasonable for certain flavors to expect other certain flavors to be present. More to the point, I think it's reasonable for town to make educated guesses on the matter as the game goes on and we begin to discover more identities.

Some secondary win conditions are VT -> PR, some PR - VT, some PR -> PR, some VT -> VT, and some have solo objectives.

The rules state some secondary win conditions will be impossible, so I don't find this line of thinking very profitable for us

[2.71828.....]

Thoughts on generic flavour:

Once all draft flavors were assigned, Robz had a choice on assigning the remaining flavor roles. He could have:

A) Chosen the remaining flavor roles 100% randomly
B) Chosen the remaining flavor roles that had corresponding secondary win conditions that fit with known  (to him) flavors that exist within the game.

It's quite possible that he did either. But it would be less fun as a player to be given a flavor that has no means of completing a secondary win condition, so I'm inclined to believe the latter to be true.

Given this, I think it would be reasonable for certain flavors to expect other certain flavors to be present. More to the point, I think it's reasonable for town to make educated guesses on the matter as the game goes on and we begin to discover more identities.

Some secondary win conditions are VT -> PR, some PR - VT, some PR -> PR, some VT -> VT, and some have solo objectives.

The rules state some secondary win conditions will be impossible, so I don't find this line of thinking very profitable for us

Well, might be impossible. Still, line of thinking is not really profitable

[O]

Vote: Gkrieg

FOS everyone who's claiming draft orders without a substantial discussion beforehand.

Here is your substantial discussion

I agree that we should all claim draft position.

I was #12

I was caught as SK in M100 due to draft position claiming. I don't know if that will work here (doubtful) but I am convinced claiming draft position doesn't hurt town

Vote: O

I don't disagree with anything in there. But scum want to claim before we can talk on an order to claim draft.

[Galzria]

Thoughts on generic flavour:

Once all draft flavors were assigned, Robz had a choice on assigning the remaining flavor roles. He could have:

A) Chosen the remaining flavor roles 100% randomly
B) Chosen the remaining flavor roles that had corresponding secondary win conditions that fit with known  (to him) flavors that exist within the game.

It's quite possible that he did either. But it would be less fun as a player to be given a flavor that has no means of completing a secondary win condition, so I'm inclined to believe the latter to be true.

Given this, I think it would be reasonable for certain flavors to expect other certain flavors to be present. More to the point, I think it's reasonable for town to make educated guesses on the matter as the game goes on and we begin to discover more identities.

Some secondary win conditions are VT -> PR, some PR - VT, some PR -> PR, some VT -> VT, and some have solo objectives.

The rules state some secondary win conditions will be impossible, so I don't find this line of thinking very profitable for us

Well, might be impossible. Still, line of thinking is not really profitable

Of course he stated that. He would be remiss not to. Absolutely worth noting and keeping in mind.

[2.71828.....]

Vote: Gkrieg

FOS everyone who's claiming draft orders without a substantial discussion beforehand.

Here is your substantial discussion

I agree that we should all claim draft position.

I was #12

I was caught as SK in M100 due to draft position claiming. I don't know if that will work here (doubtful) but I am convinced claiming draft position doesn't hurt town

Vote: O

I don't disagree with anything in there. But scum want to claim before we can talk on an order to claim draft.

Trying to create arbitrary rules on how we claim based on absolutely zero known information. Scum delay tactics

Vote: O

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Gkrieg

FOS everyone who's claiming draft orders without a substantial discussion beforehand.

Here is your substantial discussion

I agree that we should all claim draft position.

I was #12

I was caught as SK in M100 due to draft position claiming. I don't know if that will work here (doubtful) but I am convinced claiming draft position doesn't hurt town

Vote: O

I don't disagree with anything in there. But scum want to claim before we can talk on an order to claim draft.

Why is that?

[O]

Vote: Gkrieg

FOS everyone who's claiming draft orders without a substantial discussion beforehand.

Here is your substantial discussion

I agree that we should all claim draft position.

I was #12

I was caught as SK in M100 due to draft position claiming. I don't know if that will work here (doubtful) but I am convinced claiming draft position doesn't hurt town

Vote: O

I don't disagree with anything in there. But scum want to claim before we can talk on an order to claim draft.

Trying to create arbitrary rules on how we claim based on absolutely zero known information. Scum delay tactics

Vote: O

How will you sleep at night?

More specifically, who do you plan designate as your night kill before you go to sleep?

[O]

Vote: Gkrieg

FOS everyone who's claiming draft orders without a substantial discussion beforehand.

Here is your substantial discussion

I agree that we should all claim draft position.

I was #12

I was caught as SK in M100 due to draft position claiming. I don't know if that will work here (doubtful) but I am convinced claiming draft position doesn't hurt town

Vote: O

I don't disagree with anything in there. But scum want to claim before we can talk on an order to claim draft.

Why is that?

First claims are generally provided extra legitimacy.

[Teproc]

First things first: NOT PENNY’S BOAT

Don't like claiming draft order at all.

[2.71828.....]

First things first: NOT PENNY’S BOAT

Don't like claiming draft order at all.

Why is that? Sure, lower positioned draftees may have better PRs (or at least have a PR) but judging from M100 several low draftees were actually vanilla. This also helps direct town PRs that may exist where to target without shooting blindly in the dark.

How about this, all draftees position 7 and above claim

[ashersky]

NOT PENNY'S BOAT

Everyone should do it.

[ashersky]

How about this, all draftees position 7 and above claim

Seems bad.

Same as saying everyone below 7 claim.

I think all of this claiming stuff helps (good, strong) scum way more than anyone else.  (Good, strong) scum will use this to suss out as much as possible based on their own draft spots, wins and losses, etc. and know who to kill/not to kill.

So yeah, bad.

[Robz888]

Vote Count 1.0

ashersky (1): LaLight
gkrieg (1): O
O (1): 2.71828

Note Voting (14):  Galzria, gkrieg, Archetype, Teproc, Witherweaver, IDontPlayThisGame, DatSwan, Eevee, Qvist, ashersky, faust, SpaceAnemone, The_Wine_Merchant, Jimmmmm

With 17 alive it takes 9 to lynch. Day 1 ends Monday, September 18th, at 3:00 PM. Namaste.

[ashersky]

What if it had been Penny's boat, though?

That would have been crazy.

Also, that scene almost lost me -- get it?  He was one of my favorite characters.

[Witherweaver]

I don't get it.

[ashersky]

I mean, there are six candidates, and one is the SM, so it might seem counterintuitive to not lynch them, but at the same time, the SM wants to kill candidates to win, so lynching candidates helps the SM win, which is bad.

Hence, no lynching candidates.  Seems we should just list the candidates here so the rest of the players can know who they are and just focus on the rest of the pool for now, no?

[Witherweaver]

It being the boat thing.

[Witherweaver]

I mean, there are six candidates, and one is the SM, so it might seem counterintuitive to not lynch them, but at the same time, the SM wants to kill candidates to win, so lynching candidates helps the SM win, which is bad.

Hence, no lynching candidates.  Seems we should just list the candidates here so the rest of the players can know who they are and just focus on the rest of the pool for now, no?

"Candidates are picked at random, independent of role or alignment, after all other phases of the draft have ended. The Serial Killer could even be a Candidate."

Why do you think SM is a candidate?

[Witherweaver]

And, like, Mafia could be Candidates.

[Swowl]

I also do not like the idea of the order claim. I believe that Town gets different varieties of some good out of it but skum will always get some sort of valuable info out of it.

[ashersky]

I thought it was guaranteed.  Seems like it would have to be, because how else could the SM know who the Candidates are to kill?

And yes, I know mafia could be candidates.

[Witherweaver]

I also do not like the idea of the order claim. I believe that Town gets different varieties of some good out of it but skum will always get some sort of valuable info out of it.

Like what sort?

[Witherweaver]

I thought it was guaranteed.  Seems like it would have to be, because how else could the SM know who the Candidates are to kill?

And yes, I know mafia could be candidates.

There is stuff in the description in the setup post.  Are you trying to not-SM slip?

[Witherweaver]

Claiming candidates would be kind of bad, then.

[Archetype]

NOT PENNY'S BOAT

I dont think its wise to discuss Candidate stuff at all.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

NOT PENNY'S BOAT

[The_Wine_Merchant]

2.7 is already feeling super town to me.

I am draft position #7.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

What is it with people and not reading set-ups? Or pretending not to have read them.

vote: LaLight

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Vote: Gkrieg

FOS everyone who's claiming draft orders without a substantial discussion beforehand.

Here is your substantial discussion

I agree that we should all claim draft position.

I was #12

I was caught as SK in M100 due to draft position claiming. I don't know if that will work here (doubtful) but I am convinced claiming draft position doesn't hurt town

Vote: O

I don't disagree with anything in there. But scum want to claim before we can talk on an order to claim draft.

Trying to create arbitrary rules on how we claim based on absolutely zero known information. Scum delay tactics

Vote: O

Except I don't agree with 2.7 here.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Gkrieg

FOS everyone who's claiming draft orders without a substantial discussion beforehand.

Here is your substantial discussion

I agree that we should all claim draft position.

I was #12

I was caught as SK in M100 due to draft position claiming. I don't know if that will work here (doubtful) but I am convinced claiming draft position doesn't hurt town

Vote: O

I don't disagree with anything in there. But scum want to claim before we can talk on an order to claim draft.

Trying to create arbitrary rules on how we claim based on absolutely zero known information. Scum delay tactics

Vote: O

Except I don't agree with 2.7 here.

So why did you claim?

[Teproc]

The argument for not lynching candidates is pretty simple: it makes winning harder for one of the scum factions. The problem is that we don't know how it affects town and mafia's wincon, because we don't know how many mafia are Candidates.

Also, we do not want Candidates to claim, clearly. Which means this would only come up if a Candidate got to L1 and had to claim: do we refrain from lynching them just on the strength of that ? Maybe on day 1.

Also, ash & everyone else : please do read the setup. Candidates are assigned at full random.

PPE: lots

[The_Wine_Merchant]

So why did you claim?

Sorry. I don't agree with him that O's opinion makes O scummy and thus should be voted. I think O's opinion is pretty null in terms of alignment.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

The argument for not lynching candidates is pretty simple: it makes winning harder for one of the scum factions. The problem is that we don't know how it affects town and mafia's wincon, because we don't know how many mafia are Candidates.

Also, we do not want Candidates to claim, clearly. Which means this would only come up if a Candidate got to L1 and had to claim: do we refrain from lynching them just on the strength of that ? Maybe on day 1.

Also, ash & everyone else : please do read the setup. Candidates are assigned at full random.

PPE: lots

Candidates could also expose themselves to tell us if someone falsely claimed being a Candidate. And it wasn't full random. There's a PR that makes you a Candidate.

[Witherweaver]

So why did you claim?

Sorry. I don't agree with him that O's opinion makes O scummy and thus should be voted. I think O's opinion is pretty null in terms of alignment.

Okay, then, remove the "so" from the question and consider it restated.

[Teproc]

THinking about it more, I guess draft order claiming is debatable. It does force scum to claim the truth, essentially, which doesn't let them shuffle their orders around as they please, which they can do later in the game. It does make it significantly easier for them to find the strong PRs, but, well, there are town PRs that benefit from there being obvious NKs I suppose.

I'm not convinced.

PPE: I meant fully random as far as alignment is concerned.

[Witherweaver]

The argument for not lynching candidates is pretty simple: it makes winning harder for one of the scum factions. The problem is that we don't know how it affects town and mafia's wincon, because we don't know how many mafia are Candidates.

Also, we do not want Candidates to claim, clearly. Which means this would only come up if a Candidate got to L1 and had to claim: do we refrain from lynching them just on the strength of that ? Maybe on day 1.

Also, ash & everyone else : please do read the setup. Candidates are assigned at full random.

PPE: lots

Teproc making Senseroc.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

So why did you claim?

Sorry. I don't agree with him that O's opinion makes O scummy and thus should be voted. I think O's opinion is pretty null in terms of alignment.

Okay, then, remove the "so" from the question and consider it restated.

I agree with 2.7 that claiming was what hurt him in M100 when he was the SK and has a good chance of hurting scum now.

There are other benefits and downsides on both sides that I think even out, but the being forced to claim now and live with what they claim, is what pushes it to the favorable side.

[Archetype]

I had a plan...

and then Robz broke it

Now I need to think about this.

This has to do with the SM moving up the chain with the LOST numbers, yes?

[SpaceAnemone]

Hi all! Just a reminder that I'm kind of VLA just now. Conference wifi is patchy, mobile data doesn't work in the lower floors of the convention centre, and my brain is full. Other than that, everything is great and interesting :-) Oh, and Eevee, I found a Tim Horton's, but they didn't do soya milk, so that scuppered my coffee-and-wifi plan before I got the mobile data going :-(

In game-relevant news, I'm in favour of mass-claims, and especially of clever claiming strategies. Robz's decree limits verifiable info for claims and stuff, which is sad because it's a nice threat to have in the bag. It probably advantages scum a bit, so I share faust's disappointment at the death of potential plans, and disagree with whoever says faust was scummy.

I actually agree with ash that not lynching candidates is a great plan. I think it's clear that the smoke monster doesn't have to be a candidate, though, so I'm pretty sure it's safer to keep our candidates un-announced. The Candidates thing is a neat mechanism to make a more-balanced-than-plain-SK third faction, but it doesn't really make our primary play any different because we still just have to find and lynch scums. I'm not saying we should disregard it completely, but I don't think it needs to be a big part of our strategy, especially because it's (almost completely) orthogonal to the role bidding stuff.

Wow, ppe 15 and counting... This is going to be hard to keep up with because I'm about to be afk for a while!

[Teproc]

Really hard to know how beneficial to scum order claiming is. Depending on how it went, especially in the first few slots - and especially if scum got beaten to stuff - it could help them a lot.

PPE: I don't know what you mean Arch, but don't forget that this is a dangerous line of discussion.

[Teproc]

Not a fan of the "no plan since the ruling happened" posts from you and faust.

Mafia is much more likely to get draft positions in the front of the draft, and the Smoke Monster essentially can't be in the last few positions in the draft.

Can you explain why you think this ?

[Archetype]

Really hard to know how beneficial to scum order claiming is. Depending on how it went, especially in the first few slots - and especially if scum got beaten to stuff - it could help them a lot.

PPE: I don't know what you mean Arch, but don't forget that this is a dangerous line of discussion.

I typed out an idea of how the system could be cheated a little, but yeah I'll just save it until after the game.

Townreading Teproc btw. This is going to be a lot of people to keep up with.

[Teproc]

Right, I suppose that's also what gkrieg's getting at ? That mafia could coordinate in beneficial ways that make them likely to be high in the draft ? I don't see how exactly... if you do, i'd suggest asking Robz if you can tell us what you mean, and do so if you can.

I definitely don't see why the SK couldn't be low though.

[ashersky]

I did read the setup posts, but honestly, too much text got a bit boring.  And I'm a guy who loves complicated setups myself.  But my setup posts are short.

Like, am I really supposed to remember everyone's win conditions? 

Reread the SM but, and I feel bad for the SM -- they have to kill 5 or 6 specific players of unknown power.  And they have to do it before mafia meets its win condition.  SM's NK helps mafia win, unless they kill mafia.  Rough.

How about we make a deal?  We can out one candidate per odd night in exchange for a directed NK.

[Teproc]

I guess I don't know how that plan works practically ? I guess the candidates are supposed to figure out among themselves who they want to out ? Don't like that.

[Robz888]

And now, a reminder about safety on the island.

This was Phil.



Phil did not follow proper safety protocols about avoiding pockets of electromagnetic energy. This is Phil now.



Don't be like Phil. Follow proper safety protocols! Namaste, and thank you.


Vote Count 1.1

ashersky (1): LaLight
gkrieg (1): O
O (1): 2.71828
LaLight (1): IDontPlayThisGame

Note Voting (13):  Galzria, gkrieg, Archetype, Teproc, Witherweaver, DatSwan, Eevee, Qvist, ashersky, faust, SpaceAnemone, The_Wine_Merchant, Jimmmmm

With 17 alive it takes 9 to lynch. Day 1 ends Monday, September 18th, at 3:00 PM. Namaste.

[Archetype]

I did read the setup posts, but honestly, too much text got a bit boring.  And I'm a guy who loves complicated setups myself.  But my setup posts are short.

Like, am I really supposed to remember everyone's win conditions? 

Reread the SM but, and I feel bad for the SM -- they have to kill 5 or 6 specific players of unknown power.  And they have to do it before mafia meets its win condition.  SM's NK helps mafia win, unless they kill mafia.  Rough.

How about we make a deal?  We can out one candidate per odd night in exchange for a directed NK.

I mean, the SM is arguably the most balanced SK I've seen in any game on here tbh. Don't like the candidate plan at all.

[ashersky]

Disagree.  SK is hard.  Sharing the scum wincon for awhile (whittle down town numbers) is one of the keys to success.  Here, it's literally "find these specific players and get them lynched/NK them" and you may or may not get your know them ahead of time.

Makes me think SM had to choose the role to be a candidate, right?

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Disagree.  SK is hard.  Sharing the scum wincon for awhile (whittle down town numbers) is one of the keys to success.  Here, it's literally "find these specific players and get them lynched/NK them" and you may or may not get your know them ahead of time.

Makes me think SM had to choose the role to be a candidate, right?

That, Mother, or Double Shot Candidate Cop are the three that would make sense to me.

[Teproc]

I don't see that there's a huge upside in discussing what we think the SK went for. It's highly dependent on where they ended up in drafting order, so.

vote: laLight I think the "all PRs are IC" thing is too dumb to not be faked. Well, to put it more politely: I don't think LaLight, who is an experienced mod, would seriously believe Robz (also an experienced mod) would have a setup in which that was true. It probably occured to him reading the setup, and he figured he would post it for towncred, which scum is more actively seeking in general.

[Roadrunner7671]

/tag /potential sub

[Robz888]

/tag /potential sub

Noted. Thank you, random island denizen. Namaste.

[Someone radio LaFleur that a potential Hostile just stopped by the recruitment office to pick up a job application.]

[Archetype]

Disagree.  SK is hard.  Sharing the scum wincon for awhile (whittle down town numbers) is one of the keys to success.  Here, it's literally "find these specific players and get them lynched/NK them" and you may or may not get your know them ahead of time.

Makes me think SM had to choose the role to be a candidate, right?

Well, yeah, its definitely difficult. But your initial post made it sound like the SK in this game is noticeably more difficult, but I just dont think that's the case.

But whatever, it doesn't really matter what we think. Definitely think the SM goes for Last Recruit, Double Cop, or Mother (and the number thing makes it more likely that they have a higher draft position).

[Teproc]

(and the number thing makes it more likely that they have a higher draft position).

Still don't get that, would like to get a clarification on why that is if it's possible.

[chairs]

/tag /sub

[Archetype]

(and the number thing makes it more likely that they have a higher draft position).

Still don't get that, would like to get a clarification on why that is if it's possible.

For every "Lost number" no one chooses, SM moves up one position in the draft.

[Jimmmmm]

NOT PENNY'S BOAT

[Qvist]

So, yay, finally starting, I already forgot most of the rules and setup again although I read it several times. No idea what is going on. Anyway, it's 4.30 am, I will read what everyone is saying tomorrow and see what I can come up with.

[Jimmmmm]

One plan at can say is that I will do everything in my power to see anyone dead who plays toward their secondary win condition at the cost of their primary win condition.

This.

[faust]

I had a plan...

and then Robz broke it

Now I need to think about this.

How would it have worked?

I asked Robz and it turns out I am not allowed to tell you as it would reveal stuff about my bid.

I hate posting restrictions.

[faust]

I had a plan...

and then Robz broke it

Now I need to think about this.

This has to do with the SM moving up the chain with the LOST numbers, yes?

I cannot say.

[faust]

Right, I suppose that's also what gkrieg's getting at ? That mafia could coordinate in beneficial ways that make them likely to be high in the draft ? I don't see how exactly... if you do, i'd suggest asking Robz if you can tell us what you mean, and do so if you can.

I do, and I did, and I can't.

[faust]

Reread the SM but, and I feel bad for the SM -- they have to kill 5 or 6 specific players of unknown power.  And they have to do it before mafia meets its win condition.  SM's NK helps mafia win, unless they kill mafia.  Rough.

What do you mean by this? Mafia cannot win as long as the Smoke Monster is alive, so Smoke Monster is strictly easier than normal SK.

[faust]

I have no idea why people are randomly claiming stuff without us having a coordinated plan for claiming. That is definitely the worst of all possible worlds, and scummy too. gkrieg is probably the scummiest for it. I can see scum!gkrieg using this as an excuse to not get nightkilled.

vote: gkrieg

[ashersky]

Reread the SM but, and I feel bad for the SM -- they have to kill 5 or 6 specific players of unknown power.  And they have to do it before mafia meets its win condition.  SM's NK helps mafia win, unless they kill mafia.  Rough.

What do you mean by this? Mafia cannot win as long as the Smoke Monster is alive, so Smoke Monster is strictly easier than normal SK.

Wrong.  Well, right, but wrong.

SM loses once Mafia have the majority, even if SM is alive.  Assume 8 alive, 4 mafia v. 1 SK v. 3 Town.  Can SM win by dodging the lynch and killing the final candidate that night and dodging the NK?  Sure.  But not likely.  It's the same as a regular SK, but with more restrictions on winning.

So SM is strictly harder, not strictly easier.

[Qvist]

Catching up right now.

Agreeing with not claiming the draft position yet.
Basically agreeing with this:

I also do not like the idea of the order claim. I believe that Town gets different varieties of some good out of it but skum will always get some sort of valuable info out of it.

Also I dislike already starting to claim draft positions right after the day started. Shouldn't this decided by the group? Sounds very suspicious to me.

[faust]

Reread the SM but, and I feel bad for the SM -- they have to kill 5 or 6 specific players of unknown power.  And they have to do it before mafia meets its win condition.  SM's NK helps mafia win, unless they kill mafia.  Rough.

What do you mean by this? Mafia cannot win as long as the Smoke Monster is alive, so Smoke Monster is strictly easier than normal SK.

Wrong.  Well, right, but wrong.

SM loses once Mafia have the majority, even if SM is alive.  Assume 8 alive, 4 mafia v. 1 SK v. 3 Town.  Can SM win by dodging the lynch and killing the final candidate that night and dodging the NK?  Sure.  But not likely.  It's the same as a regular SK, but with more restrictions on winning.

So SM is strictly harder, not strictly easier.

The situation described above is just as unwinnable for a regular SK. Seriously, in every situation where a regular SK would win, the Smoe Monster wins too (if everyone else is dead, then all Candidates are naturally dead). Plus, the Smoke Monster wins in other situations as well. So obviously it is easier.

[faust]

I think we could benefit from a mass draft order claim, though it would be even better if we could talk about number bids.

This statement is okay to make apparently, sanctioned by Robz:

I think there is a definite optimal bidding strategy for town.

[ashersky]

Reread the SM but, and I feel bad for the SM -- they have to kill 5 or 6 specific players of unknown power.  And they have to do it before mafia meets its win condition.  SM's NK helps mafia win, unless they kill mafia.  Rough.

What do you mean by this? Mafia cannot win as long as the Smoke Monster is alive, so Smoke Monster is strictly easier than normal SK.

Wrong.  Well, right, but wrong.

SM loses once Mafia have the majority, even if SM is alive.  Assume 8 alive, 4 mafia v. 1 SK v. 3 Town.  Can SM win by dodging the lynch and killing the final candidate that night and dodging the NK?  Sure.  But not likely.  It's the same as a regular SK, but with more restrictions on winning.

So SM is strictly harder, not strictly easier.

The situation described above is just as unwinnable for a regular SK. Seriously, in every situation where a regular SK would win, the Smoe Monster wins too (if everyone else is dead, then all Candidates are naturally dead). Plus, the Smoke Monster wins in other situations as well. So obviously it is easier.

Every non-candidate the SM kills puts them closer to losing.  It's specifically anti-win-con to kill non-candidates, but unless they shoot, they can't meet their wincon.

Being forced to take an action every night that is likely to go directly against your own wincon is insanely tough.  How can you not see that SM is significantly harder to win as than a normal SK?

[ashersky]

Plus, it is super-swingy in a bad way.  The win condition is one of three things:

SM is a Candidate:
"You win when you kill these specific five players you know about."

SM/mother are not Candidates:
"You win when you kill six specific players that you are unaware of, and each player you kill that is not one of the six puts you closer to losing."

SM is not a Candidate and Mother is:
"You win when you kill these specific five players your partner knows about and can tell you the names of."

In 1 and 3, it's easier to win as SM than SK.  In 2, it's basically impossible.  I'm not good at math, but I'm sure you can apply percentages to each (% easier and % harder) and do some average thing to see.

In my opinion, situation 2 is somewhere on the scale of thirty times harder to win than a regular SK.  You need to think having a 2/3 chance of being in situation 1 or 3 overcomes that to declare that SM is easier than SK.  And even then, it isn't always easier, since we know 2 can exist.

All this said, it now appears to me that SM needed to go for Mother or being a candidate for its PR.  Mother seems better, since you get a partner.

[Teproc]

I reread the setup a lot but I didn't think to reread the non-setup posts with key info in them. The SK doesindeed move up, and now I get how people might have had plans there.

I think I'm favorable to draft order claiming. I don't see that the order in which we do it really matters because it's pretty hard for people to lie, right ? I do think we need people to agree on it though, otherwise it's too easy for scum to just hide and let town out info for no reason. It's really only valuable if everyone does it.

I don't think people claiming their numbers as scummy for it, and I especially don't think scum!gkrieg would be worried about having an excuse not to be NKed in a 17-player game.

PPE: I don't see the point of this conversation. How easy or hard it is for the SM to win is completely irrelevant right now.

[ashersky]

There is some relevance -- namely if we should worry/care about the SM/candidates now or ever.

[ashersky]

I think the only way I agree to a full order claim is if we agree to lynch in that order.

[faust]

ash, you are welcome to discuss how hard this is after the game, but I see no point in further discussion as it does not impact the game, and I am very sure that I am right. I agree that the whole thing is swingy and the design choice is questionable. Probably would have made sense to inform the SK about all Candidates no matter if they are a Candidate themselves.

Anyway it the whole thing makes me read ash lightly town.

I still think claiming draft order would be nice but since I am not allowed to tell you why, it will be difficult to convince anyone. ash is against it. That's fine, we can still do the thing with 1 player refusing to cooperate. Only at 2+ it starts to get pointless.

[Eevee]

I'm ok with draft order claim if the majority is.

NOT ON PENNY'S BOAT.

[ashersky]

I prefer mass claim to draft order claim.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

What is the point of ordering a draft number claim? It isn't like scum will be able to fake claim their number if we do it now on Day 1. There are 17 numbers. They have to have one and lying about what it is wouldbeobvious. There aren't "safe" fake draft order numbers.

Seems like a delay tactic, but even to that, what is the point?

[faust]

What is the point of ordering a draft number claim? It isn't like scum will be able to fake claim their number if we do it now on Day 1. There are 17 numbers. They have to have one and lying about what it is wouldbeobvious. There aren't "safe" fake draft order numbers.

Seems like a delay tactic, but even to that, what is the point?

Yes, the point is they have to tell the truth now. The same will not be the case later.

It's not as good as it would have been without the new ruling, that's for sure.

[faust]

I prefer mass claim to draft order claim.

What does a mass claim give us that a draft claim does not?

[The_Wine_Merchant]

What is the point of ordering a draft number claim? It isn't like scum will be able to fake claim their number if we do it now on Day 1. There are 17 numbers. They have to have one and lying about what it is wouldbeobvious. There aren't "safe" fake draft order numbers.

Seems like a delay tactic, but even to that, what is the point?

Yes, the point is they have to tell the truth now. The same will not be the case later.

It's not as good as it would have been without the new ruling, that's for sure.

Right. I know.but why create an order in how everyone should take turns to claim? Just claim when you get online.

[faust]

Well, yes, that works fine, assuming everyone agrees that we do it. If some of us claim and then the rest doesn't, it's not really helpful.

[2.71828.....]

I'm ok with draft order claim if the majority is.

NOT ON PENNY'S BOAT.

Be ok with it, and do it. Or don't be ok with it, and don't do it. Pretending that the majority of players always knows whay is best is silly

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Well, yes, that works fine, assuming everyone agrees that we do it. If some of us claim and then the rest doesn't, it's not really helpful.

If some of us do it, then there will be clear obvious gaps that the, hopefully minority, will either be forced to back fill for us, or risk getting lynched. That information isn't worth getting lynched for if you are town so we would only be lynching mafia

Perfect world and all, but I like it.

[LaLight]

I am №14

[2.71828.....]

Well, yes, that works fine, assuming everyone agrees that we do it. If some of us claim and then the rest doesn't, it's not really helpful.

If some of us do it, then there will be clear obvious gaps that the, hopefully minority, will either be forced to back fill for us, or risk getting lynched. That information isn't worth getting lynched for if you are town so we would only be lynching mafia

Perfect world and all, but I like it.

No, no, no. I will not participate in lynching anyone simply because they refuse to claim. Threats of "claim or be lynched" are terrible. Each player should do what they are convinced is the right thing to do

[LaLight]

I also think that massclaim may as well be profitable

[ashersky]

I prefer mass claim to draft order claim.

What does a mass claim give us that a draft claim does not?

Lots of info, forces scum to tell truth or lie, etc.  We could at the very least figure what may or may not be in play.

You'd need VTs to claim what slot they requested, too.  I mean, it's a lot of info, it's one of those things we always discuss but never do, etc.

The thing I would wonder is would a mass claim where all townies tell the truth and all scum do whatever helps themselves the most result in too much of a boon for scum.  I'm not sure it does.

[2.71828.....]

I prefer mass claim to draft order claim.

What does a mass claim give us that a draft claim does not?

Lots of info, forces scum to tell truth or lie, etc.  We could at the very least figure what may or may not be in play.

You'd need VTs to claim what slot they requested, too.  I mean, it's a lot of info, it's one of those things we always discuss but never do, etc.

The thing I would wonder is would a mass claim where all townies tell the truth and all scum do whatever helps themselves the most result in too much of a boon for scum.  I'm not sure it does.

I am down for this.

[Eevee]

I'm ok with draft order claim if the majority is.

NOT ON PENNY'S BOAT.

Be ok with it, and do it. Or don't be ok with it, and don't do it. Pretending that the majority of players always knows whay is best is silly

Is it useful if not everyone participates? Wouldn't we just get the negatives without the positives in that case?

I don't really have an opinion, it's not something I would analyze now and I don't know how helpful it would be later. But I'm also not on the other side of categorically opposing it for similar reasons.

So, in if everyone is doing it. Hopefully the hivemind reaches the right conclusion for town.

[Witherweaver]

I think I'm okay with claiming. 

[faust]

Lots of info, forces scum to tell truth or lie, etc.

Anythin forces scum to tell the truth or lie. I can ask "Are you scum?" and scum is forced to tell the truth or lie. That's not helpful.

We could at the very least figure what may or may not be in play.

So could scum. And they can do a whole lot more with the information.

it's one of those things we always discuss but never do, etc.

The reason we never do it is that it's usually bad.

The thing I would wonder is would a mass claim where all townies tell the truth and all scum do whatever helps themselves the most result in too much of a boon for scum.  I'm not sure it does.

Well scum can pretty certainly deal with all our investigative roles before they pose any real threat. They can avoid a Bomb and a 1-shot Kill Proof. I'm not sure how valuable the information we get is; scum should have safe fakeclaims mostly (depeding on Barracks), and once our PRs are outed, we have no way of figuring out who's lying.

[Witherweaver]

Lots of info, forces scum to tell truth or lie, etc.

Anythin forces scum to tell the truth or lie. I can ask "Are you scum?" and scum is forced to tell the truth or lie. That's not helpful.

This sounds a bit purposefully argumentative.  Claiming is a bigger issue, as they're much more accountable to their potential lie.

[ashersky]

Faust makes good points.  I mean, the idea behind a mass claim is trading all our power roles for the possible outing of scum based on lies.  That requires absolute truth from town and perception of the imperfection of even provided fakeclaims.

We've never tested it, probably never will.

[Witherweaver]

I'm pretty sure we've massclaimed at the beginning Day 1 before, in some RMM game.  Maybe one with Yuma?

Also that one Dominion Card game, which was arguably setup breaking.

[ashersky]

I'm pretty sure we've massclaimed at the beginning Day 1 before, in some RMM game.  Maybe one with Yuma?

Also that one Dominion Card game, which was arguably setup breaking.

The one where I was scum and I proposed the scum-defeating plan?  Yeah.

[Witherweaver]

I'm pretty sure we've massclaimed at the beginning Day 1 before, in some RMM game.  Maybe one with Yuma?

Also that one Dominion Card game, which was arguably setup breaking.

The one where I was scum and I proposed the scum-defeating plan?  Yeah.

Yes.  I think we also did it some other time as well.

[Teproc]

Looks like we have a consensus for draft claiming minus ash. I know everyone hasn't actually expressed approval, but enough people have, so let's get it out of the way now.

I was #9.

Don't like actual massclaiming though. And we're not going to do it, so let's stop talking abuot it ? i realize that's a self-fulfilling prophecy, but you know.

LaLight, did you truthfully believe that PRs were ICs in this setup ?

[LaLight]

Looks like we have a consensus for draft claiming minus ash. I know everyone hasn't actually expressed approval, but enough people have, so let's get it out of the way now.

I was #9.

Don't like actual massclaiming though. And we're not going to do it, so let's stop talking abuot it ? i realize that's a self-fulfilling prophecy, but you know.

LaLight, did you truthfully believe that PRs were ICs in this setup ?

ugh well, you alrreadyy called me dumb and yeah, I was dumb enough to think so. I mean when the game was opened I was already going to go to sleep with a high temperature, so it was like half of my brain working but I wanted to be the first to post

[Eevee]

I was #16

[2.71828.....]

I'm pretty sure we've massclaimed at the beginning Day 1 before, in some RMM game.  Maybe one with Yuma?

Also that one Dominion Card game, which was arguably setup breaking.

The one where I was scum and I proposed the scum-defeating plan?  Yeah.

Yeah. That one. I was scum with you. It was a great plan

[Teproc]

I didn't call you dumb, I said believing this was dumb. There is an important difference, in that I certainly don't intend to insult you (and I apologize if I did). Everyone does dumb things.

[ashersky]

I'm pretty sure we've massclaimed at the beginning Day 1 before, in some RMM game.  Maybe one with Yuma?

Also that one Dominion Card game, which was arguably setup breaking.

The one where I was scum and I proposed the scum-defeating plan?  Yeah.

Yeah. That one. I was scum with you. It was a great plan

And yet no MVP nod for me.  It was rigged.

[faust]

I guess I should just resing to dying early...

I am #1.

[LaLight]

I didn't call you dumb, I said believing this was dumb. There is an important difference, in that I certainly don't intend to insult you (and I apologize if I did). Everyone does dumb things.

nonono I am not offended, that's okay! I was indeed dumb

[Teproc]

I guess I should just resing to dying early...

I am #1.

Twice in a row, impressive. I was going to look up Philosopher's, but you modded that.

[SpaceAnemone]

I guess I should just resing to dying early...

I am #1.

Yeah, this. I'm #2.

[faust]

I guess I should just resing to dying early...

I am #1.

Twice in a row, impressive. I was going to look up Philosopher's, but you modded that.

Well. Imagine something being posted here if it wasn't for those darn restrictions.

[Teproc]

I didn't call you dumb, I said believing this was dumb. There is an important difference, in that I certainly don't intend to insult you (and I apologize if I did). Everyone does dumb things.

nonono I am not offended, that's okay! I was indeed dumb

Good. Also, townie reaction.

unvote

Let's try a vote: Galz. He was around but I don't remember what he said: scummy for him.

[2.71828.....]

Faust makes good points.  I mean, the idea behind a mass claim is trading all our power roles for the possible outing of scum based on lies.  That requires absolute truth from town and perception of the imperfection of even provided fakeclaims.

We've never tested it, probably never will.

I disagree. We aren't trying to catch scum in a lie.... yet. We are forcing scum who won... say, station 5... to claim watcher rather than investigative immune. This forces scum to create a lie that we can catch them in on D3 or D4.

I fully anticipate not learning anything from a mass claim on D1. But I also think that it will win is the game on D3/D4

[faust]

Faust makes good points.  I mean, the idea behind a mass claim is trading all our power roles for the possible outing of scum based on lies.  That requires absolute truth from town and perception of the imperfection of even provided fakeclaims.

We've never tested it, probably never will.

I disagree. We aren't trying to catch scum in a lie.... yet. We are forcing scum who won... say, station 5... to claim watcher rather than investigative immune. This forces scum to create a lie that we can catch them in on D3 or D4.

I think it's utopian to assume we will ever catch them. That kind of thing can only be found out via PRs, and since scum will know all PRs, they can just kill off the ones that pose a threat to their lies.

[2.71828.....]

Faust makes good points.  I mean, the idea behind a mass claim is trading all our power roles for the possible outing of scum based on lies.  That requires absolute truth from town and perception of the imperfection of even provided fakeclaims.

We've never tested it, probably never will.

I disagree. We aren't trying to catch scum in a lie.... yet. We are forcing scum who won... say, station 5... to claim watcher rather than investigative immune. This forces scum to create a lie that we can catch them in on D3 or D4.

I fully anticipate not learning anything from a mass claim on D1. But I also think that it will win is the game on D3/D4

Wait, reading again I guess it I did agree. I was thinking you were stating we would find scum D1. But that isn't actually a correct conclusion

[ashersky]

I find that this order claiming may have something to offer after all.

And that may be bad.

Fully hypothetical situation:

Scum!space is #2, bid on PR8.  Lost.  Knows faust, as #1 is that PR (or one from the same station).

You can extrapolate that down the line for all players who chose a PR and lost.

This seems bad.

[ashersky]

Right, a massclaim D1 doesn't catch scum D1.  It theoretically catches scum down the line when newly verified information joins the mix.

[2.71828.....]

Faust makes good points.  I mean, the idea behind a mass claim is trading all our power roles for the possible outing of scum based on lies.  That requires absolute truth from town and perception of the imperfection of even provided fakeclaims.

We've never tested it, probably never will.

I disagree. We aren't trying to catch scum in a lie.... yet. We are forcing scum who won... say, station 5... to claim watcher rather than investigative immune. This forces scum to create a lie that we can catch them in on D3 or D4.

I think it's utopian to assume we will ever catch them. That kind of thing can only be found out via PRs, and since scum will know all PRs, they can just kill off the ones that pose a threat to their lies.

M100 had several townies with low numbers not have PRs. As the SK I intentionally went for a slot that I thought would help prevent townies from getting PRs. And it worked.

Now, you have a PR for sure

[faust]

IYou can extrapolate that down the line for all players who chose a PR and lost.

This seems bad.

It doesn't really work for anyone but Space. And it's not particularly likely that scum!Space and I would have gone for the same PR anyway.

[faust]

Faust makes good points.  I mean, the idea behind a mass claim is trading all our power roles for the possible outing of scum based on lies.  That requires absolute truth from town and perception of the imperfection of even provided fakeclaims.

We've never tested it, probably never will.

I disagree. We aren't trying to catch scum in a lie.... yet. We are forcing scum who won... say, station 5... to claim watcher rather than investigative immune. This forces scum to create a lie that we can catch them in on D3 or D4.

I think it's utopian to assume we will ever catch them. That kind of thing can only be found out via PRs, and since scum will know all PRs, they can just kill off the ones that pose a threat to their lies.

M100 had several townies with low numbers not have PRs. As the SK I intentionally went for a slot that I thought would help prevent townies from getting PRs. And it worked.

Now, you have a PR for sure

Oh, okay. I thought you were arguing massclaim rather than draft order claim.

[2.71828.....]

I find that this order claiming may have something to offer after all.

And that may be bad.

Fully hypothetical situation:

Scum!space is #2, bid on PR8.  Lost.  Knows faust, as #1 is that PR (or one from the same station).

You can extrapolate that down the line for all players who chose a PR and lost.

This seems bad.

So after the order claiming we mass claim to prevent this?

I don't think it is that bad of a situation though

[ashersky]

IYou can extrapolate that down the line for all players who chose a PR and lost.

This seems bad.

It doesn't really work for anyone but Space. And it's not particularly likely that scum!Space and I would have gone for the same PR anyway.

Why not?  Depends on strategy, which the scum team was able to formulate.

I mean, if you are both scum, it is all moot.

It basically works best for the lowest # VT, then less well after, dying out at around #10 maybe for usefulness?

[faust]

I find that this order claiming may have something to offer after all.

And that may be bad.

Fully hypothetical situation:

Scum!space is #2, bid on PR8.  Lost.  Knows faust, as #1 is that PR (or one from the same station).

You can extrapolate that down the line for all players who chose a PR and lost.

This seems bad.

So after the order claiming we mass claim to prevent this?

I don't think it is that bad of a situation though

It's not bad. I mean worst case, scum wanted to kill me before we claimed, now they still want to kill me.

[ashersky]

Also, screw it, I guess.  I was anti-claiming numbers for this very reason.

I was #1.  vote: faust

[faust]

IYou can extrapolate that down the line for all players who chose a PR and lost.

This seems bad.

It doesn't really work for anyone but Space. And it's not particularly likely that scum!Space and I would have gone for the same PR anyway.

Why not?  Depends on strategy, which the scum team was able to formulate.

I mean, if you are both scum, it is all moot.

It basically works best for the lowest # VT, then less well after, dying out at around #10 maybe for usefulness?

If position #3 lost, then they already don't know who of the two players ahead of them got their PR. It gets increasingly harder to tell from there.

[Eevee]

Competing number claims? Either faust or ash is scum and deemed it worth it to go down like this?

Oh me oh my!

[faust]

Also, screw it, I guess.  I was anti-claiming numbers for this very reason.

I was #1.  vote: faust

Uh what?

[ashersky]

Also, screw it, I guess.  I was anti-claiming numbers for this very reason.

I was #1.  vote: faust

unvote

Not as funny as I wanted.  I wish I had thought of it immediately after your claim.

[Eevee]

I'm inclined to believe faust, because I think ash would be more likely to do this as scum.

OTOH this might be one of those cases where ash retracts his claim later.

[Eevee]

Bingo!

[ashersky]

Also, screw it, I guess.  I was anti-claiming numbers for this very reason.

I was #1.  vote: faust

Uh what?

Nothing.  Just trying to be ridiculous.

[faust]

Also, screw it, I guess.  I was anti-claiming numbers for this very reason.

I was #1.  vote: faust

unvote

Not as funny as I wanted.  I wish I had thought of it immediately after your claim.

I was still kinda funny. You should not have backed down so quickly.

[ashersky]

Technically, it could have been Faust who was lying to draw out the real #1.

Or we could have switched our slots on purpose as scum partners.

[2.71828.....]

Ashersky is obv!town along with LaLight

[ashersky]

Also, screw it, I guess.  I was anti-claiming numbers for this very reason.

I was #1.  vote: faust

unvote

Not as funny as I wanted.  I wish I had thought of it immediately after your claim.

I was still kinda funny. You should not have backed down so quickly.

Eh, maybe.  I got one mystified response, at least.  It wasn't the most realistic counterclaim, though.  We sort of had a discussion about claiming in-between.

[faust]

Technically, it could have been Faust who was lying to draw out the real #1.

Or we could have switched our slots on purpose as scum partners.

Man I wish we were scum partners!

There would be little point in lying to draw them out if everyone claims anyway.

[faust]

Ashersky is obv!town along with LaLight

and e

[LaLight]

Ashersky is obv!town along with LaLight

and e

no

[ashersky]

Technically, it could have been Faust who was lying to draw out the real #1.

Or we could have switched our slots on purpose as scum partners.

Man I wish we were scum partners!

There would be little point in lying to draw them out if everyone claims anyway.

True.  But I wasn't claiming, maybe others don't and we end up with like 5 slots unaccounted for, and we as theoretical scum partners want to catch the SM or something.  I'm sure there's an edge case.

[2.71828.....]

Ashersky is obv!town along with LaLight

and e

no

You are scum?

[Witherweaver]

I am not convinced on LaLight.  Ash is probably town, e is on the townier side.

[ashersky]

Is it time for prods yet?  Like, TWM and Datswan and whomever?

[LaLight]

Ashersky is obv!town along with LaLight

and e

no

You are scum?

I am not sure you are town, is all

[Witherweaver]

Is it time for prods yet?  Like, TWM and Datswan and whomever?

The game has not yet been open for 24 hours.  You can preemptively prod Jimmmmm though.

[2.71828.....]

Is it time for prods yet?  Like, TWM and Datswan and whomever?

TWM posted earlier today, and I know datswan has posted. I like to avoid prods as much as possible. I have nightmares about silo mafia

[Witherweaver]

Has Datswan played before?

[Teproc]

I think Jimmmm is the only player who hasn't popsted yet.

DatSwan has played before, in M105. He was a good townie later in the game, but rather absent in the first two days.

[2.71828.....]

One plan at can say is that I will do everything in my power to see anyone dead who plays toward their secondary win condition at the cost of their primary win condition.

This.

Jimmmmm has in fact posted

[Witherweaver]

One plan at can say is that I will do everything in my power to see anyone dead who plays toward their secondary win condition at the cost of their primary win condition.

This.

Jimmmmm has in fact posted

Efficiently worded as always.

[Teproc]

I'll maintain that he hasn't popsted though.

WW, do you have reads yet ?

[Archetype]

I'm draft position #5

[SpaceAnemone]

Also, screw it, I guess.  I was anti-claiming numbers for this very reason.

I was #1.  vote: faust

unvote

Not as funny as I wanted.  I wish I had thought of it immediately after your claim.

I was still kinda funny. You should not have backed down so quickly.

Huh. I'd totally have voted ash if he hadn't backed down before I read the thread again. I know I don't have much of a sense of humour, but Ash's brand escapes me more than most.

[ashersky]

That's fine, but why immediately assume I was lying and not consider faust as the liar there?

[Robz888]

Announcement: We will be celebrating young Benjamin Linus's birthday in the rec room this afternoon. Pineapple upside down cake will be provided.



Vote Count 1.2

ashersky (1): LaLight
gkrieg (2): O, faust
O (1): 2.71828
LaLight (1): IDontPlayThisGame
Galzria (1): Teproc

Note Voting (11):  Galzria, gkrieg, Archetype, Witherweaver, DatSwan, Eevee, Qvist, ashersky, SpaceAnemone, The_Wine_Merchant, Jimmmmm

With 17 alive it takes 9 to lynch. Day 1 ends Monday, September 18th, at 3:00 PM. Namaste.

[LaLight]

unvote

some serious discussion here

[Witherweaver]

I'll maintain that he hasn't popsted though.

WW, do you have reads yet ?

Only those that I already posted.  Well, more or less.

[SpaceAnemone]

That's fine, but why immediately assume I was lying and not consider faust as the liar there?

Bias :-) I get faust's brain way better than yours, and he's sounding sensible.

[Witherweaver]

That's fine, but why immediately assume I was lying and not consider faust as the liar there?

Bias :-) I get faust's brain way better than yours, and he's sounding sensible.

Scum likes to be sensible.

[Swowl]

I still do not see a huge upside for town here but, upon review, my itial thoughts were pertaining to info gathered on day 1. Order claiming for the improved potential to catch skum down the road actually seems like a good idea to me.

I was #15.

[Galzria]

#1 - Faust
#2 - Space
#3
#4
#5 - Archetype
#6
#7 - TWM
#8 - Galzria
#9 - Teproc
#10 - Gkrieg
#11
#12 - 2.718
#13
#14 - LaLight
#15 - DatSwan
#16 - Eevee
#17

Not claimed: WW, Teproc, IDPTG, Qvist, Ash, Jimmm, O

********************

Why are we giving scum our Draft order? So they can know who beat them to the PR's they bid on? Seems reasonable.

IYou can extrapolate that down the line for all players who chose a PR and lost.

This seems bad.

It doesn't really work for anyone but Space. And it's not particularly likely that scum!Space and I would have gone for the same PR anyway.

Why not?  Depends on strategy, which the scum team was able to formulate.

I mean, if you are both scum, it is all moot.

It basically works best for the lowest # VT, then less well after, dying out at around #10 maybe for usefulness?

First things first: NOT PENNY’S BOAT

Don't like claiming draft order at all.

Why is that? Sure, lower positioned draftees may have better PRs (or at least have a PR) but judging from M100 several low draftees were actually vanilla. This also helps direct town PRs that may exist where to target without shooting blindly in the dark.

How about this, all draftees position 7 and above claim

vote: e

I think the idea is terrible to begin with, but I'll participate as I'm obviously out voted by my fellow townies. The point I made and that Ash followed up on is accurate though. All we're doing (especially in the higher bids) is narrowing down significantly scum's pool of players with likely PR's. If scum has #3 and was beaten, for example, they know Space/Faust took it from them.

This gets to be less of a problem the further back you go, as the pool of potential players grows. This makes e's suggestion super scummy - it's essentially trying to minimize the operation while giving scum maximum knowledge.

[gkrieg13]

I'll probably compile a list of draft order later, though I might not get to it, pretty busy today.

PPE good!

[gkrieg13]

Also, ash seems kind of fake against the plan.  Doesn't sound right from him.

vote: ash

[Teproc]

I'd say nothing sounds more like town!ash than "your plan sucks and I won't participate, here's a much bolder plan we should be doing instead".

[gkrieg13]

I'd say nothing sounds more like town!ash than "your plan sucks and I won't participate, here's a much bolder plan we should be doing instead".

I'm saying that while yes, those words sound like town!ash, the feeling behind them didn't seem ash enough.  It didn't sound enough like our plan sucked.

[Teproc]

Galz, either you're misunderstanding e's proposal or I'm misunderstanding your argument. If it's the former: in e's proposal there, faust, Space and Arch wouldn't have claimed for example.

[Witherweaver]

I'd say nothing sounds more like town!ash than "your plan sucks and I won't participate, here's a much bolder plan we should be doing instead".

I'm saying that while yes, those words sound like town!ash, the feeling behind them didn't seem ash enough.  It didn't sound enough like our plan sucked.

Eh

[Galzria]

Galz, either you're misunderstanding e's proposal or I'm misunderstanding your argument. If it's the former: in e's proposal there, faust, Space and Arch wouldn't have claimed for example.

I read "above" as "better" - If I'm incorrect I'll retract my vote.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

vote: Eevee

Fence sitting.

[Witherweaver]

I agree.

Vote: Eevee

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Well, yes, that works fine, assuming everyone agrees that we do it. If some of us claim and then the rest doesn't, it's not really helpful.

If some of us do it, then there will be clear obvious gaps that the, hopefully minority, will either be forced to back fill for us, or risk getting lynched. That information isn't worth getting lynched for if you are town so we would only be lynching mafia

Perfect world and all, but I like it.

No, no, no. I will not participate in lynching anyone simply because they refuse to claim. Threats of "claim or be lynched" are terrible. Each player should do what they are convinced is the right thing to do

I think I was unclear again. My bad. I don't mean someone who is against claiming is automatically lynched, although I do see that my post implies that.

I mean, that in my book, if you are against claiming at a time where your info would complete the puzzle that is going to give you major scum points and would be a reason, among others, to lynch. But it wouldn't be the only reason to lynch.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Oh. Well Eevee ended up moving off the fence and claiming, but I think the point still stands for his original posts.

[Witherweaver]

Galz, either you're misunderstanding e's proposal or I'm misunderstanding your argument. If it's the former: in e's proposal there, faust, Space and Arch wouldn't have claimed for example.

I read "above" as "better" - If I'm incorrect I'll retract my vote.

I was also not clear if that meant less than or greater than in numerical value under standard metric.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Also, screw it, I guess.  I was anti-claiming numbers for this very reason.

I was #1.  vote: faust

unvote

Not as funny as I wanted.  I wish I had thought of it immediately after your claim.

Hahahahah.

Wait? I don't get it. What is the joke?

[Eevee]

Yeah. Seems pretty hard to make reads this early.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Is it time for prods yet?  Like, TWM and Datswan and whomever?

WTF?

I had just barely posted this morning and already have ~ 10 posts not counting the ones I just barely posted.

[Teproc]

I guess I don't see how e could possibly have been proposing what Galz is suggesting, as either alignment, and the fact that Galz is suggesting that he thought that's what was happening is scummy. I can see how it is semantically ambiguous, but contextually it should have been rather clear.

[Teproc]

WW, are you going to claim your draft order ? Or did I miss it?

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Has WW had a stance on claiming? He might be sitting on the fence, but just not being public about it.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

WW, are you going to claim your draft order ? Or did I miss it?

Oooohhhh. We are on the same brain wave. Cyberspace high five!

[faust]

I guess I don't see how e could possibly have been proposing what Galz is suggesting, as either alignment, and the fact that Galz is suggesting that he thought that's what was happening is scummy. I can see how it is semantically ambiguous, but contextually it should have been rather clear.

I don't think Galzria would is scummy for thinking that's what's happening, but I do find it odd that he would scumread e for it... it's just such an obviously bad idea, why would scum even bother proposing it?

[The_Wine_Merchant]

I think I'm okay with claiming.

Started hesitant. Now says ok. But hasn't claimed.

Added to the implied hypocrisy of also voting for eevee and I'll

vote: WW

[Witherweaver]

Has WW had a stance on claiming? He might be sitting on the fence, but just not being public about it.

I said I would be okay with a massclaim.

WW, are you going to claim your draft order ? Or did I miss it?

I am going to, yes.  But I like to be difficult.

[Witherweaver]

I think I'm okay with claiming.

Started hesitant. Now says ok. But hasn't claimed.

Added to the implied hypocrisy of also voting for eevee and I'll

vote: WW

That word does not seem to mean what you think it means.

[Eevee]

Vote: WW That's mr fence to you!

[The_Wine_Merchant]

I think I'm okay with claiming.

Started hesitant. Now says ok. But hasn't claimed.

Added to the implied hypocrisy of also voting for eevee and I'll

vote: WW

That word does not seem to mean what you think it means.

Probably.

[Witherweaver]

For the record, my statement

I think I'm okay with claiming.

was referring to the full massclaim, which was in discussion at that point as well, not just the order number claim. 

[Qvist]

Is it normal that day 1 starts that crazy?

Anyway I'm still against the order claiming. Low numbers are more likely power roles and while for crash survivors the info isn't that great because it doesn't tell anything about alignment, the others however will have much higher chances to get rid of important people. I mean now it is kinda too late probably. But maybe I just don't understand the benefits of claiming. Maybe can anyone simplify the reasonings for me again?

And what was that ashersky claim about? Why would anyone fake claim and then immediately take it back?

[Witherweaver]

Is it normal that day 1 starts that crazy?

Anyway I'm still against the order claiming. Low numbers are more likely power roles and while for crash survivors the info isn't that great because it doesn't tell anything about alignment, the others however will have much higher chances to get rid of important people. I mean now it is kinda too late probably. But maybe I just don't understand the benefits of claiming. Maybe can anyone simplify the reasonings for me again?

And what was that ashersky claim about? Why would anyone fake claim and then immediately take it back?

You're in this game?  Is that normal?

[Teproc]

I guess I don't see how e could possibly have been proposing what Galz is suggesting, as either alignment, and the fact that Galz is suggesting that he thought that's what was happening is scummy. I can see how it is semantically ambiguous, but contextually it should have been rather clear.

I don't think Galzria would is scummy for thinking that's what's happening, but I do find it odd that he would scumread e for it... it's just such an obviously bad idea, why would scum even bother proposing it?

That's more or less what I mean. Feels like Galz is pushing a bad case just to appear townie, and I think I remember his early M100 (I reread D1 of that a few days ago to get a feel for big games like this) being similar.

[Qvist]

Nope, not normal, just happy to be alive after the crash.

[Galzria]

I guess I don't see how e could possibly have been proposing what Galz is suggesting, as either alignment, and the fact that Galz is suggesting that he thought that's what was happening is scummy. I can see how it is semantically ambiguous, but contextually it should have been rather clear.

I don't see how you could possibly fail to see how e could be suggesting exactly what I said. /eyeroll

He DID suggest either "numerically greater than 7 claim" or "numerically lower than 7 claim". That's not arguable. I happened to interpret it as the latter - and thought that was natural. As soon as there was dissenting opinion I acknowledged it and even stated that once cleared up I would retract my vote. If I misunderstood, my case is invalid.

[2.71828.....]

I guess I don't see how e could possibly have been proposing what Galz is suggesting, as either alignment, and the fact that Galz is suggesting that he thought that's what was happening is scummy. I can see how it is semantically ambiguous, but contextually it should have been rather clear.

I don't see how you could possibly fail to see how e could be suggesting exactly what I said. /eyeroll

He DID suggest either "numerically greater than 7 claim" or "numerically lower than 7 claim". That's not arguable. I happened to interpret it as the latter - and thought that was natural. As soon as there was dissenting opinion I acknowledged it and even stated that once cleared up I would retract my vote. If I misunderstood, my case is invalid.

I definitely meant 7 and above only (7,8,9,etc...). I would have to look back at my post to see if that was what I said

[2.71828.....]

First things first: NOT PENNY’S BOAT

Don't like claiming draft order at all.

Why is that? Sure, lower positioned draftees may have better PRs (or at least have a PR) but judging from M100 several low draftees were actually vanilla. This also helps direct town PRs that may exist where to target without shooting blindly in the dark.

How about this, all draftees position 7 and above claim

Ok yeah. I see how "above" could be interpreted in either direction.

[2.71828.....]

But also: I meant it as a compromise. I was definitely for full draft position claiming, but if there were individuals who resisted enough I proposed that as a potential compromise

[Galzria]

unvote

[Galzria]

It didn't cross my mind when I first read it that you could mean {7, 8, 9...}. I even made note in my QT of the post as scummy. But yeah, my misinterpreting obviously negates my argument.

[2.71828.....]

I have a few thoughts regarding the whole claiming thing, butt want to hold off until everyone has had the chance to claim or file their complaint and resist claiming. I am sure there is somewhere to file complaints on this island

[faust]

I have a few thoughts regarding the whole claiming thing, butt want to hold off until everyone has had the chance to claim or file their complaint and resist claiming. I am sure there is somewhere to file complaints on this island

There is a letter shoot at the Pearl for submitting those.

[Robz888]

I have a few thoughts regarding the whole claiming thing, butt want to hold off until everyone has had the chance to claim or file their complaint and resist claiming. I am sure there is somewhere to file complaints on this island

There is a letter shoot at the Pearl for submitting those.

Quite correct. We read all of them very, very carefully. Namaste.

[SpaceAnemone]

So did ash's order claim joke just get him out of having to claim his actual number without looking noticeably scummy for it?

[SpaceAnemone]

I also misinterpreted the same thing as Galz.

I think at this point we've had enough claiming that the remaining people should claim order at least, since we've outed enough potential PRs that the downsides of not pinning everyone down to an ordering are mostly already out there.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

If we're doing the order claim, I was number 13. If we're not, I wasn't.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Edit: Draft Position #13

[ashersky]

So did ash's order claim joke just get him out of having to claim his actual number without looking noticeably scummy for it?

No.  I was firmly in the anti camp from the beginning.

[Witherweaver]

So did ash's order claim joke just get him out of having to claim his actual number without looking noticeably scummy for it?

No.  I was firmly in the anti camp from the beginning.

And what is your stance now?

[Jimmmmm]

I was going to say why do people even suggest massclaiming on Day 1? Even if it was a good thing to do, you can never get everyone to participate. Now it seems most people are participating, so there you go. I'm between Arch and TWM.

[gkrieg13]

If four more people participate then it doesn't matter if ash participates.

[ashersky]

So did ash's order claim joke just get him out of having to claim his actual number without looking noticeably scummy for it?

No.  I was firmly in the anti camp from the beginning.

And what is your stance now?

If four more people participate then it doesn't matter if ash participates.

[O]

I'm still trying to figure out the tangible benefit that down gets from claiming draft positions...

Actually I never understood why e fucked up so badly in M100 and didn't just claim his own draft number in the first place.

[O]

down = town

[gkrieg13]

It will help because scum won't be able to fakeclaim a different position in the draft later.  If Space now claims to be VT, that is pretty unlikely, and they are probably scum.

If scum took any of the scummier slots, it will be much harder for them to claim to have taken a different slot and failed and are VT now.

[Witherweaver]

Hmm... scummier slots?

[O]

I feel like they can still fake claim VT as long as its not... 5? or up.

[gkrieg13]

Hmm... scummier slots?

Some slots have much better scum powers than town powers. 

I feel like they can still fake claim VT as long as its not... 5? or up.

True, but that at least helps a little bit.  I think it helps more than it hurts.

[Galzria]

Hmm... scummier slots?

Some slots have much better scum powers than town powers. 

I feel like they can still fake claim VT as long as its not... 5? or up.

True, but that at least helps a little bit.  I think it helps more than it hurts.

I will happily eat crow to be wrong - but I strongly believe we've handed scum a huge advantage this game by doing the claim.

[gkrieg13]

When we finally do the mass claim of roles, we should do them in reverse draft order.  I think that also gives fewer ways to lie about what you got.

[Galzria]

When we finally do the mass claim of roles, we should do them in reverse draft order.  I think that also gives fewer ways to lie about what you got.

Because of what I know, I strongly disagree - but I'm debating claiming now because of my knowledge. It breaks what I would hope to achieve by claiming top down (lowest numerical to highest), but gives town an important piece of information.

[gkrieg13]

I'm guessing that has to do with your role?  I think in general, it should be better to start at lowest draft number because if it is scum that got a role that is scummy and they want to claim to have gotten VT, they have to claim going for a slot that was already gone for, which I guess they already know what their scumbuddies got...

Ok never mind, not the best plan.

[mcmcsalot]

I want you to help yourselves...

Vote Count 1.3

gkrieg (2): O, faust
O (1): 2.71828
LaLight (1): IDontPlayThisGame
Galzria (1): Teproc
ashersky (1): gkrieg
Eevee (1): Witherweaver
Witherweaver (2): The_Wine_Merchant, Eevee

Note Voting (8):  Archetype, DatSwan, Qvist, ashersky, SpaceAnemone, Jimmmmm, Lalight, Galzria

With 17 alive it takes 9 to lynch. Day 1 ends Monday, September 18th, at 3:00 PM.

[O]

Yea I'm  so down for lynching Gkrieg or e for this disaster of a plan.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

I don't think I have actually stated this but I am personally in favor of a mass claim.

Sooner rather than later in terms of game days. Later in terms of actual today.

Interested to see who has only participated in theory or discussing claiming. Feel like scum is more likely to be there.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Yea I'm  so down for lynching Gkrieg or e for this disaster of a plan.

Hm. Hope I didn't just get added to your list.

[SpaceAnemone]

It's weird being in the forum time timezone, because things aren't happening at the times of day I feel used to. Like, shouldn't 9pm-ish be busier than this? I'm actually still jetlagged enough that it's pretty much bedtime now.. no point in getting over my 5-hour displacement when I'm flying home on Thursday anyway.

[SpaceAnemone]

Oh.. one downside of going straight to a claiming plan and skipping over the most painfully awkward RVS stuff: I haven't had a chance to say hi to the people I don't know and do the pronoun thing before I start getting misgendered.

So, hi Datswan and Qvist... I haven't played with either of you before, have I? I'm Space, and I use they/them pronouns in here by preference, or she/her if people find that too difficult. Thanks :-)

[Witherweaver]

Yea I'm  so down for lynching Gkrieg or e for this disaster of a plan.

Gkrieg I can do.  e I don't think so.

[Witherweaver]

So are all the people that haven't submitted their number opposed to the plan and not going to?

[O]

I have no plans to do so currently, no.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

I have no plans to do so currently, no.

OK. Fine. You can say all the numbers currently unclaimed except for the one that is yours. Then you can do what we want but keep your pride.

[O]

I can confirm I'm not 1,2,5,7,8,9,10,12,14,15,16, a non integer value, a negative integer, or an integer greater than 20.

[Swowl]

So are all the people that haven't submitted their number opposed to the plan and not going to?

I don't think that is fair. If you think it will help you do it and if you don't then you don't. I currently still see a large upside for town. With all the side meta stuff I think that it is likely skum will gain knowledge of a lot of PRs regardless, but this system gives us a good way of determining who skum is down the road.

Either way imo it beats the crap out of the inevitable RVS talks of day 1.

[Swowl]

Oh.. one downside of going straight to a claiming plan and skipping over the most painfully awkward RVS stuff: I haven't had a chance to say hi to the people I don't know and do the pronoun thing before I start getting misgendered.

So, hi Datswan and Qvist... I haven't played with either of you before, have I? I'm Space, and I use they/them pronouns in here by preference, or she/her if people find that too difficult. Thanks :-)

Yo! Swan is fine and it's "he"

[faust]

Okay. For reasons I cannot disclose, I think it is likely that there are multiple scum in relatively high positions in the draft. Space being high up is interesting for reasons that I also cannot discuss. I might have to run some probabilities.

[faust]

Okay. I have to clarify something. In the meantime, vote: Space

[Qvist]

No one has answered me why claiming draft order is a good idea.

Vote: e

for claiming shortly after the day started while most even didn't have a chance to express if they are pro or contra that decision.

[ashersky]

I will bite.  vote: space

[Witherweaver]

So are all the people that haven't submitted their number opposed to the plan and not going to?

I don't think that is fair. If you think it will help you do it and if you don't then you don't. I currently still see a large upside for town. With all the side meta stuff I think that it is likely skum will gain knowledge of a lot of PRs regardless, but this system gives us a good way of determining who skum is down the road.

Either way imo it beats the crap out of the inevitable RVS talks of day 1.

This response doesn't make much sense to me.

[Witherweaver]

Anyway, I'm #4

[faust]

So still unclaimed are Qvist, ashersky, Jimmmmm, O. And the numbers they have are 3, 6, 11, 17.

[faust]

I'd think that the group above contains at most 2 mafiosi. That might be interesting POE at some point.

[Witherweaver]

Is this all based on the order numbers?

[faust]

Is this all based on the order numbers?

Nah, that's just based on I don't think all mafia players refuse to claim.

[Qvist]

I would claim if someone would explain to me why I should.

[O]

I would claim if someone would explain to me why I should.

[faust]

I would claim if someone would explain to me why I should.

The mighty mcRobzsalot has decreed that I cannot.

[Qvist]

*sigh*

[faust]

Someone already did a bit on how claiming now resticts the freedom that scum has for fakeclaims down the road. That's decent for us, but the main reason I want to do it is something else.

[Witherweaver]

I believe the correct updated list looks like:

#1 - Faust
#2 - Space
#3 - {Qvist, ashersky, IDPTG, O}
#4 - Witherweaver
#5 - Archetype
#6 - Jimmmmm
#7 - TWM
#8 - Galzria
#9 - Teproc
#10 - Gkrieg
#11 - {Qvist, ashersky, IDPTG, O}
#12 - 2.718
#13 - {Qvist, ashersky, IDPTG, O}
#14 - LaLight
#15 - DatSwan
#16 - Eevee
#17 - {Qvist, ashersky, IDPTG, O}

[Qvist]

Welp, I get a town read from faust, so I guess I trust him for now. I'm #11

[faust]

I believe the correct updated list looks like:

#1 - Faust
#2 - Space
#3 - {Qvist, ashersky, IDPTG, O}
#4 - Witherweaver
#5 - Archetype
#6 - Jimmmmm
#7 - TWM
#8 - Galzria
#9 - Teproc
#10 - Gkrieg
#11 - {Qvist, ashersky, IDPTG, O}
#12 - 2.718
#13 - {Qvist, ashersky, IDPTG, O}
#14 - LaLight
#15 - DatSwan
#16 - Eevee
#17 - {Qvist, ashersky, IDPTG, O}

I think Idplay claim #13 somewhere.

[Galzria]

I believe the correct updated list looks like:

#1 - Faust
#2 - Space
#3 - {ashersky, O}
#4 - Witherweaver
#5 - Archetype
#6 - Jimmmmm
#7 - TWM
#8 - Galzria
#9 - Teproc
#10 - Gkrieg
#11 - Qvist
#12 - 2.718
#13 - IDPTG
#14 - LaLight
#15 - DatSwan
#16 - Eevee
#17 - {ashersky, O}

Fixed

[SpaceAnemone]

Okay. For reasons I cannot disclose, I think it is likely that there are multiple scum in relatively high positions in the draft. Space being high up is interesting for reasons that I also cannot discuss. I might have to run some probabilities.

Argh, faust.. not good! You know I'm liable to scumread you when you don't make sense, and my position and role make perfect sense. You also know I'm perfectly capable of reasoning excessively about probabilities, and most people here who've played with me before in a setuppy game are well aware of it too. That makes it really interesting that you decide to push me anyway. Your behaviour doesn't give me the warmest of fuzzies about you or your motivations here :-(

Vote: faust

PPE 10+3

[Witherweaver]

Okay. For reasons I cannot disclose, I think it is likely that there are multiple scum in relatively high positions in the draft. Space being high up is interesting for reasons that I also cannot discuss. I might have to run some probabilities.

Argh, faust.. not good! You know I'm liable to scumread you when you don't make sense, and my position and role make perfect sense. You also know I'm perfectly capable of reasoning excessively about probabilities, and most people here who've played with me before in a setuppy game are well aware of it too. That makes it really interesting that you decide to push me anyway. Your behaviour doesn't give me the warmest of fuzzies about you or your motivations here :-(

Vote: faust

PPE 10+3

What do you mean, your position and role make perfect sense?

[Eevee]

I'm very interested to see what faust is driving at. He seems towny to me as well.

[O]

this doesn't feel like town v town to me TBH

[2.71828.....]

faust does not feel extremely townie to me, but we totally shouldn't lynch him D1

[SpaceAnemone]

Okay. For reasons I cannot disclose, I think it is likely that there are multiple scum in relatively high positions in the draft. Space being high up is interesting for reasons that I also cannot discuss. I might have to run some probabilities.

Argh, faust.. not good! You know I'm liable to scumread you when you don't make sense, and my position and role make perfect sense. You also know I'm perfectly capable of reasoning excessively about probabilities, and most people here who've played with me before in a setuppy game are well aware of it too. That makes it really interesting that you decide to push me anyway. Your behaviour doesn't give me the warmest of fuzzies about you or your motivations here :-(

Vote: faust

PPE 10+3

What do you mean, your position and role make perfect sense?

I mean I came second in the drafting order and risked picking the PR I most wanted because I was happy enough to gamble on the grounds that there are plenty of other townies to suck up the slightly-less-good roles if I didn't get the good one I wanted. Faust clearly didn't pick that one, and he knows I know for definite.

Incidentally, I have zero interest in claiming which PR I took until after faust claims which one he took. I'd rather like other people not to indulge him by narrowing his pool by giving their own claims, either. Plus, I want there to be uncertainty for the scums about exactly what town roles are in the game to minimize their chance of neutralizing me or other useful PRs N1.

[2.71828.....]

Personally, I thought the role slots were fairly well balanced and do not believe there was a clear "top 5 roles" or whatever for town

[Witherweaver]

How would Faust have known that, until just now?  I'm not sure I'm completely following.

[Witherweaver]

I'm getting the impression I thought about the setup differently than everyone else.

[Galzria]

How would Faust have known that, until just now?  I'm not sure I'm completely following.

This. He can't.

[Galzria]

Personally, I thought the role slots were fairly well balanced and do not believe there was a clear "top 5 roles" or whatever for town

There were good choices in most slots for both factions.

[Galzria]

How would Faust have known that, until just now?  I'm not sure I'm completely following.

This. He can't.

To be clear - I don't think it's scummy for Space to have stated what they did. Just noting it's inaccuracy.

[ashersky]

Personally, I thought the role slots were fairly well balanced and do not believe there was a clear "top 5 roles" or whatever for town

There was without a doubt "top 5 roles" for each faction.

I think there was no consensus "#1 role" for town.  Like, if faust is town, he definitely SHOULD have taken one of only a handful of options.  If he used the top choice in the game on The Cabin, for example, he should retire from mafia forever.

[faust]

Yeah, obviously I did not know anything about that and my reasons for voting Space are different.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

How would Faust have known that, until just now?  I'm not sure I'm completely following.

I think Space was trying to say that faust knows that Space knows whether they picked the same slot because if Space got the PR, faust didn't pick that slot but if they didn't, faust did.

[Galzria]

When we finally do the mass claim of roles, we should do them in reverse draft order.  I think that also gives fewer ways to lie about what you got.

Because of what I know, I strongly disagree - but I'm debating claiming now because of my knowledge. It breaks what I would hope to achieve by claiming top down (lowest numerical to highest), but gives town an important piece of information.

Sleeping on this -

You're absolutely correct I think in that the general gamelan (best overall for town) would be to go in reverse drafting order for claims. Scum can't safely fake a VT claim if they don't know what above (numerically lower) them has been taken. If they claim to be a VT from The Swan for example, and no Swan claims are future forthcoming, they'll be caught.

That said... I still have strong reasons to want 1-7 before I claim. But I wouldn't fight going 17 -> 1 if we did it

[faust]

Robz has approved me saying this:

If my assumptions about what happened are correct, Space has an about 4% chance of being town.

[Galzria]

Robz, can we speculate openly about OTHER people's guesses? You stated simply that we cannot hint at or reveal any informant whatsoever about our OWN.

[Robz888]

Robz, can we speculate openly about OTHER people's guesses? You stated simply that we cannot hint at or reveal any informant whatsoever about our OWN.

Perhaps if you can do so in a manner that does not reveal or suggest your own guess. It would be a good idea to preview what you want to say with the mods first.

[Galzria]

 Faust, does that help? Preview whatever you need to. Don't get yourself MOD killed. But can you work with that?

[faust]

Faust, does that help? Preview whatever you need to. Don't get yourself MOD killed. But can you work with that?

No I can't really. I already previewed something along those lines to Robz and he said I cannot post it.

[Qvist]

So, as I said I believe faust is town. So I will believe him. Although I have no idea how he could know that on day 1.

Vote: space

If space flips town, I know who to vote for in the next day.

[Witherweaver]

So, as I said I believe faust is town. So I will believe him. Although I have no idea how he could know that on day 1.

Vote: space

If space flips town, I know who to vote for in the next day.

I don't like this line of thinking.  I don't think Space being town makes Faust a necessarily good lynch.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

So, as I said I believe faust is town. So I will believe him. Although I have no idea how he could know that on day 1.

Vote: space

If space flips town, I know who to vote for in the next day.

Pretty much this. Not sure if I'm quite there yet.

[Galzria]

Faust, do you believe the SK got a significant boost to draft position?

[Witherweaver]

Faust can you say whether or not your calculations rely on Mafia using an optimal bidding strategy?

[faust]

Will check if I'm allowed to answer these.

[Qvist]

Why not? If he is that confident about space being not town...
Sorry this is only my third game, so please clarify why.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Faust, how confident are you in your calculation that there's only a 4% chance of Space being town?

[Qvist]

I would guess he is confident to around 96%

[IDontPlayThisGame]

I would guess he is confident to around 96%

Because 100 - 4 = 96?

[Qvist]

yes of course. If he said "there is 0% chance that he is town" he would be 100% certain right?

[faust]

There's always a chance that my assumptions are wrong. Effectively I'd give Space being town a maybe 25 % chance.

[faust]

Turns out I may not answer most of these questions.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

yes of course. If he said "there is 0% chance that he is town" he would be 100% certain right?

No. There's a difference between a result and confidence in that result.

[Witherweaver]

Why not? If he is that confident about space being not town...
Sorry this is only my third game, so please clarify why.

If Faust were scum and this were all some kind of stunt, what would the upside be?  To get one mislynch in?  Random lynching is more likely to mislynch than not, so it's the de facto default.

[Qvist]

Well that is how I would formulate it. Anyway, I probably shouldn't speak for other people.

Why not? If he is that confident about space being not town...
Sorry this is only my third game, so please clarify why.

If Faust were scum and this were all some kind of stunt, what would the upside be?  To get one mislynch in?  Random lynching is more likely to mislynch than not, so it's the de facto default.

Okay, makes sense. Thank you.

[Galzria]

Why not? If he is that confident about space being not town...
Sorry this is only my third game, so please clarify why.

If Faust were scum and this were all some kind of stunt, what would the upside be?  To get one mislynch in?  Random lynching is more likely to mislynch than not, so it's the de facto default.

It wouldn't be any random mislynch though - it would be on a player that he (now) knows (And may have before / could have guessed at) has a PR. That's potentially better than a random VT mislynch. And because he's never had to reveal anything (and can't/won't) going forward he could easily argue against his lynch tomorrow. He's not actually basing his read of Space on results after all - just on his own "speculation".

I'm not convinced he's scum mind you - and he's definitely not getting lynched D1. But I won't write the possibility off.

[Witherweaver]

Well that's a good point.  I guess scum would want to lynch players higher in the draft. 

[Eevee]

Just to pull back a little, are we know talking about either lynching the first or the second player from the draft order? The townside seems like a high chance of a town pr.

[LaLight]

Just to pull back a little, are we know talking about either lynching the first or the second player from the draft order? The townside seems like a high chance of a town pr.

I totally agree. We should lynch someone from the middle.

[ashersky]

Just to pull back a little, are we know talking about either lynching the first or the second player from the draft order? The townside seems like a high chance of a town pr.

I totally agree. We should lynch someone from the middle.

We should lynch who we think is scum.  We shouldn't base our decisions based on draft order.

I have a follow-up line I need to run by the mod.

[Witherweaver]

Just to pull back a little, are we know talking about either lynching the first or the second player from the draft order? The townside seems like a high chance of a town pr.

I totally agree. We should lynch someone from the middle.

We should lynch who we think is scum.  We shouldn't base our decisions based on draft order.

I have a follow-up line I need to run by the mod.

Agreed.

[ashersky]

Just to pull back a little, are we know talking about either lynching the first or the second player from the draft order? The townside seems like a high chance of a town pr.

I totally agree. We should lynch someone from the middle.

We should lynch who we think is scum.  We shouldn't base our decisions based on draft order.

I have a follow-up line I need to run by the mod.

Approved:

You can just as easy argue that we should lynch from those with the best draft order position because scum had time to discuss and bid optimally.

[gkrieg13]

That was my whole point in claiming.  I think scum are much more likely to have higher positions in the draft (meaning lower number, or better), because they were able to work with each other to not collide.

[Witherweaver]

That was my whole point in claiming.  I think scum are much more likely to have higher positions in the draft (meaning lower number, or better), because they were able to work with each other to not collide.

This could have been predicted (or designed), though.

[gkrieg13]

In that case, then the people proposing the order claim are more likely to be scum right?

[Robz888]

Here at Dharma, we are firmly committed to your satisfaction. The rules change regarding the numbers is proving more problematic than anticipated as we try to sort out what is and isn't okay for discussion.

Unfortunately, the only alternative is to drop the jughead down the shaft of the Swan station. This will restart the game--we will re-roll alignment, Candidates, everything. You will pick new numbers, receive new bid orders, and we will proceed as before, except the Smoke Monster's draft position will not be affected by how many Lost numbers were chosen. This will remove the need to place a posting restriction on this conversation.

I would like everyone to weigh in on this matter in their QTs. Mafia may do so in the mafia QT.

This thread will be locked until I've heard from everyone.

Thank you, and namaste.

[Robz888]

Enough people have signaled they think we should re-roll that that's what we were are going to do.

Having dropped the hydrogen bomb down the hatch, you all entered a flash sideways universe where you are patients at Santa Rosa Mental Health Hospital. You play connect four and mutter about the numbers all day.

Please re-confirm your participation in your individual QTs, which you will retain. As soon as everyone confirms, we will send out new alignment info and you can pick numbers. We are retaining all the rules from the previous version, except that number choices will not affect the Smoke Monster.

Starting over is no fun, but better now than later. Let's just consider this as a test run. As a fictitious island deity once said, "It only ends once, anything before that is just progress."

[mcmcsalot]

"It only ends once, anything before that is just progress."

Yes progress, we will have to try harder if we are going to keep him in check.

In a flash of light you are overcome by the thoughts and memories of your fellow islanders.

Numbers Chosen for Draft
1) Gkrieg: 9
2) Space: 8
3) Ashersky: 14
4) Witherweaver: 17
5) Archetype: 22
6) Jim: 15
7) TWM: 15
8) Galzria: 7
9) Teproc: 7
10) Faust: 23
11) Qvist: 23
12) 2.7: 23
13) IDP: 4
14) Lalight: 4
15) Datswan: 4
16) Eevee: 4
17) O: 4

Roles Bid On
The Hydra (Station One)
Jailkeeper
Godfather
 
The Arrow (Station Two)
Strongman (Others and SM only)
Gunsmith
 
The Swan (Station Three)
Masons (Town only) {IDontPlayThisGame #13}
Bomb {ashersky #3}
 
The Flame (Station Four)
Role Cop
1-Shot Day Vigilante {The_Wine_Merchant #7}
 
The Pearl (Station Five)
Watcher {SpaceAnemone #2}
Investigation Immune
 
The Orchid (Station Six)
2-Shot Redirector
Summon “Mother” (SM only) {gkrieg #1}
 
The Staff (Station Seven)
Doctor {Qvist #11}
1-Shot Kill Proof {Teproc #9} {Faust #10}
 
The Looking Glass (Station Eight)
Roleblocker {DatSwan #15}
Bodyguard

The Tempest (Station Nine)
Poisoner {Witherweaver #4}{Archetype #5} {Galzria #8}{2.71828..... #12}
Ninja (Others and SM only)
 
The Lamp Post (Station Ten)
Double Shot Candidate Cop
Tracker {Jimmmmm #6} {Lalight #14} {Eevee #16}
 
The Statue of Tawret
Protector of the Island
JOAT (1-shot Ninja, 1-shot Strongman, 1-shot Roleblocker)
 
The Bamboo Forest
Last Recruit {O #17}
Day 2 Innocent Child (Town only)

The Cabin
1-Shot Disabler
Night 3 Forensic Scientist
 
The Dharma Initiative Barracks
Random
Random
Random

I see you found your loophole. I'm going to break your game and cause you to look silly kill you. Someone will take my place, and another, and another...

The Candidates
17. O
3. ashersky
6. Jimmmmm
9. Teproc
8. Galzria
7. The_Wine_Merchant

[iguanaiguana]

/sub in

Missed this the first time around.

[Robz888]

Here is the new thread for this game: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17587.0

[mcmcsalot]

All the secrets of that island will be revealed in time, until then you must have faith.

Here are the links to the candidates, other, and smokemonster/mother qt's as technically the players within them have more knowledge that the rest of you.

Candidates https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/cC96kuTCSqj9K
Others https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/fAzTPfEP5m2Bi
SM/Mother https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/Zi3kqGUysaEU