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[BaruMonkey]

If Dominion were a CCG, where you had to buy your own sets with which to build your own decks, which sets would you get first because they have the more powerful cards?

Another way to phrase it; say you were playing something along the lines of each player has their own personal Kingdom they buy cards from; a Kingdom that's composed of 10 random cards from the set that they brought with them. Which set to you bring to the match?

My actual idea is more of an offshoot from this: Each player gets their own set of 10 cards to buy from, but they're all taken from the same pool, for fairness' sake.

This brings me to the question: Would any kingdom be so incredibly dominant that there is simply no counter to it?
And what are the rules about 3-piling?

...Discuss.

[popsofctown]

Oh my, a fork.

I'll crosspost this since it's kind of relevant.

What I like most about Magic from what I understand about it are the rock-paper-scissors mind games.
If you know in advance what your opponents deck will be like, I think you can create a decent counter to it.

This brings me to the question: Would any kingdom be so incredibly dominant that there is simply no counter to it?
And what are the rules about 3-piling?

I theorize the answer is no.  I played a game with a friend on iso where I would have 5 piles for me, and he would have five piles for him.  We took turns drafting cards for our minikingdom, I picked rather poorly and he ended up with King's Court, Chapel, Bridge, Laboratory, and Possession.  (he didn't buy possession, he just wanted me to not have it).

After I lost the first game he said he didn't think anything I could possibly do could beat him.  It took me several tries, but I eventually came up with a five card set that his handily.

Of course, a ten card kingdom is larger.  Could be different.

And I'll say that that guy refused to play drafting again because it was boring to him.  But if anyone wants to try it out, say so, I felt it was very fun and enjoyed the creativity aspect of it.

10 vs. 10 would be cool, but isn't possible on isotropic.

[Qvist]

Maybe add something like a veto mode. Set a limit to X.
Player 1 begins and drafts a card for his deck. Player 2 vetoes X cards for him.
Player 2 chooses a card for his deck. Player 1 vetoes X cards for him.

I think X=3 could work. I already did something like that with friends.
So if you draft King's Court on turn 1 and Goons on turn 2, just veto Masquerade or something like that.

[Deadlock39]

It is probably beatable, but my first inclination is to use this Kingdom:
Chapel, Great Hall, Ironworks, Island, Masquerade, Militia, Throne Room, Village, +2 other cards I guess.

This Kingdom can accomplish a Village, Militia, Throne Room->Masquerade 1 card pin in 13 turns (partial pin on turn 12) with the worst shuffle luck possible and significantly faster on average. Adding in Monument after the pin could probably construct a hand that can continue to pin and also generate infinite VP tokens.  It is featured in beating the Chancellor with perfect shuffle luck here:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=462.msg6345#msg6345

An extremely quick 3 pile strategy can probably beat it.  A better pin (if it exists), or something that can use Masquerade to disrupt it might also be possible.

[GendoIkari]

Well I was actually just about to post this same thread in the puzzle forum.

Here, Geronomo mentions emptying the ENTIRE supply in 10 turns:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1169.0.

My guess is that a Kingdom that's capable of doing that should be able to beat any other Kingdom... it can be tweaked; of course. Also, perhaps add in Lighthouse to protect from attacks.

[Deadlock39]

I wonder how quick the unblockable pin (KC, KC, Outpost, Masqerade) can be set up.  I think the question in this thread is which is faster, setting up a pin, or blasting 3 piles.  If you get to a pin first you can always use Monument to gain infinite points and win.  If you can pile the game before the pin is up, you probably can pull in some tokens or VP cards at the same time, while the pin player has none due to setting up his engine.

[popsofctown]

The pin itself might be unblockable, but setting it up is not.  There's all sorts of disruption an opponent's ten card kingdom could use to slow down pin construction.  I personally doubt pins will dominate.

[Deadlock39]

Disruption can slow it down, but does disruption really help you reach a win?  By trying to disrupt the pin, are you slowing your opponent down more than you are slowing yourself down?

[petrie911]

I think a +Cards/+Actions engine using Margrave with some Mountebanks thrown in would provide sufficient disruption.  Gaining Coppers and Curses while also having 3 card hands would be hard to recover from.

[Deadlock39]

My question is, can you set up that disruption faster than the pin?  I honestly don't know the answer, and don't really have enough interest to work it out.  The pin I first mentioned from the lucky Chancellor problem still works from a 3 card hand.  I think a Kingdom designed to get to the pin is going to be pretty strong against most other options.  I think there might be a rock paper scissors that exists here between a mega engine, disruption and pins.  The mega engine might just beat them all, but it would definitely beat something designed to be unpinnable.

[popsofctown]

I think so.  It's really hard to buy 7$ cards with 3 cards.

[Deadlock39]

It's really hard to buy $5 cards with 0 cards, but I don't think that speaks to the speed of either strategy.

[WanderingWinder]

My question is, can you set up that disruption faster than the pin?  I honestly don't know the answer, and don't really have enough interest to work it out.  The pin I first mentioned from the lucky Chancellor problem still works from a 3 card hand.  I think a Kingdom designed to get to the pin is going to be pretty strong against most other options.  I think there might be a rock paper scissors that exists here between a mega engine, disruption and pins.  The mega engine might just beat them all, but it would definitely beat something designed to be unpinnable.

Or too fast. I'm pretty sure there's something out there that's just too fast to lose. Something with Ironworks and workshop and kingdom victory cards. Or something with Mega-university/Wharf/business (check out 'Drunk Marine Students' in the simulator)

[popsofctown]

It's really hard to buy $5 cards with 0 cards, but I don't think that speaks to the speed of either strategy.

There's not much anyone can say that speaks to the speed of the strategies then, unless someone creates a mathematical proof or actually tests the set.  And everyone is too lazy to do that, so.

[Deadlock39]

I actually think it would be incredibly fun to play test some of this interaction, but unfortunately, I think optimizing a quick pin set up, or any of these other strategies is going to take more than 5 cards, so Isotropic wouldn't support it.  I suppose things like Chapel and King's Court might overlap, but even with that, you would probably need more than 10 cards.  The lucky Chancellor problem took 8 Kingdom cards and can realistically skip the Island since you aren't going to be dealing with worst possible shuffle luck.  In some quick experiments, I had that pin up in about 9 turns.

[petrie911]

KC/Bridge/Lab/Chapel/Village vs KC/Chapel/Militia/Masquerade/Monument would be interesting.  The Masq pin can get set up by turn 9, but the Bridge engine is capable of getting KC/KC/Bridge/Bridge/Bridge and ending the game by turn 8 (even against Militia).

If they have to have different sets, Throne Room/Minion/Outpost/Remake/Masquerade can set itself up pretty fast.  That would mean that the whole kingdom is Chapel/Village/Masquerade/Bridge/Remake/Throne Room/Minion/Outpost/Laboratory/King's Court.  Which sounds rather interesting to play.

[popsofctown]

This thread died and now I'm sad

[BaruMonkey]

I actually had a different idea from what this thread has generated. This seems to have become a "which 10 cards do I self-select to win most games". If this gets solved then... well, it's a Solved Problem and everyone will pick those same cards if they know the "answer".

My intention was for each player to be *randomly* assigned 10 cards, and play with that.

Or, for a bit more fun, they get 10 + (# of players) cards and every player gets to veto a card from each player's set.

[mnavratil]

I actually had a different idea from what this thread has generated. This seems to have become a "which 10 cards do I self-select to win most games".

Me too. The original idea seems to be to draft cards one at a time.

So, playing this way, couldn't you just deny the pin by taking Masquerade? Or if he takes Masquerade take King's Court? As I read it you each only gain access to gain/buy cards you drafted; so there is much more "meta-gaming" here I think.

Even better might be to have a hybrid-game. Instead of 10 cards, you start out with something like 20. Then out of those each player gets to draft their own mini 5-card kingdom by choosing a card of the 20 one at a time. That way there is still a bit of a random element to it

[popsofctown]

Ooooh I like that ^^

I'm up for shenanigans any time you see me on iso folks.   I'd like to try both this 20 card idea and drafting from all the possible cards too.  The 20 card thing would be easier though because you don't have to think of every card in Dominion you could ever want.