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[Chris is me]

In a trashed down engine embassy practically is journeyman is better in engines and so is rabble, and catacombs.

In a trashed down engine all that matters is the net number of cards gained. Embassy shines when you can't trash everything, or when you're relying on Treasures as payload and you have to sift to get the right engine components in your hand at the right time. It's not a show-stopper every game, but it's essential in the games where it's good.

[markusin]

What is the correlation between rank and gain rate among top 20 players supposed to be? Embassy is terminal first of all, so there are lots of games where you have to ignore it just because there are few action splitters and there are better terminals on the board, such as one of the terminals in the ranks 31-1 for the 5-cost cards. I mean, Great Hall has a 72.53% gain rate. Does that mean Great Hall is awesome?

Edit: note that Catacombs, Journeyman, and Hunting Grounds all have a similar gain rate.

[faust]

I think Embassy > Treasure Trove because Treasure Trove sucks in Colony games. But they probably should be closer to each other in the ranking.

[Qvist]

Part 6

[funkdoc]

haggler that far above merchant guild feels so, so wrong. so does lab being that high period.

glad to see IGG & soothsayer getting what they deserve!

[Tables]

Count here seems interesting. In 2013 many people said it was overrated at about #25. Then it dropped about 5 places, and people said it was underrated. Now it's bounced back up to even higher than it was in 2013. Also, IGG dropping that much, huh. Interesting.

[jsh357]

Count here seems interesting. In 2013 many people said it was overrated at about #25. Then it dropped about 5 places, and people said it was underrated. Now it's bounced back up to even higher than it was in 2013. Also, IGG dropping that much, huh. Interesting.

I go back and forth on how I feel about Count myself. I mean, it's a great trasher, except for how finnicky it can be sometimes. It's good in slog games, except when for whatever reason it isn't, etc. I think I undervalue it more than I overvalue it. One environment I love Count for is Draw to X engines, but those are relatively uncommon.

[funkdoc]

tables, it's the same kind of issue with sea hag's recent fall.  the modern high-level consensus (i loathe the term "meta" in this context) values trashing more than ever before, but junking attacks *less* than ever before.  count above IGG fits perfectly with that.

[Davio]

Count here seems interesting. In 2013 many people said it was overrated at about #25. Then it dropped about 5 places, and people said it was underrated. Now it's bounced back up to even higher than it was in 2013. Also, IGG dropping that much, huh. Interesting.

I go back and forth on how I feel about Count myself. I mean, it's a great trasher, except for how finnicky it can be sometimes. It's good in slog games, except when for whatever reason it isn't, etc. I think I undervalue it more than I overvalue it. One environment I love Count for is Draw to X engines, but those are relatively uncommon.

Count's Duchy gaining shouldn't be ignored, it's a really good option to have available to you, especially late game.

[Tables]

tables, it's the same kind of issue with sea hag's recent fall.  the modern high-level consensus (i loathe the term "meta" in this context) values trashing more than ever before, but junking attacks *less* than ever before.  count above IGG fits perfectly with that.

Um, you spelt my username wrong. But hm, yeah, I've noticed that trend. It seems like a weird direction for the meta to go though, given that one of those things is implying that getting bad cards out quickly is even better than previously thought, and the other imples that getting bad cards in isn't as bad as previously thought.

[LastFootnote]

tables, it's the same kind of issue with sea hag's recent fall.  the modern high-level consensus (i loathe the term "meta" in this context) values trashing more than ever before, but junking attacks *less* than ever before.  count above IGG fits perfectly with that.

+1 for not misusing the non-word "meta".

[LastFootnote]

tables, it's the same kind of issue with sea hag's recent fall.  the modern high-level consensus (i loathe the term "meta" in this context) values trashing more than ever before, but junking attacks *less* than ever before.  count above IGG fits perfectly with that.

Um, you spelt my username wrong.

You mean he capitalized it wrong, right? You'll note that funkdoc never uses the shift key, so I wouldn't take it personally. Apparently the requirements for a PhD in Funk are pretty lax.

[markusin]

tables, it's the same kind of issue with sea hag's recent fall.  the modern high-level consensus (i loathe the term "meta" in this context) values trashing more than ever before, but junking attacks *less* than ever before.  count above IGG fits perfectly with that.

Um, you spelt my username wrong.

You mean he capitalized it wrong, right? You'll note that funkdoc never uses the shift key, so I wouldn't take it personally. Apparently the requirements for a PhD in Funk are pretty lax.

tables, it's the same kind of issue with sea hag's recent fall.  the modern high-level consensus (i loathe the term "meta" in this context) values trashing more than ever before, but junking attacks *less* than ever before.  count above IGG fits perfectly with that.

[werothegreat]

Soothsayer is too low, I feel.  And so is Count still.  I would put both of them and Royal Carriage above Stables, Lab, HornO, Haggler, and Apprentice.

[markusin]

Perhaps the junkers have fell because Adventures has introduced a bunch of trashers and gainers that help gain said trashers? A lot of top level players have decent experience with Adventures now.

I don't see why Soothsayer is that low though. For IGG I still need to play more games with it to get a feel for whether or not it truly deserves such a huge ranking drop.

[Titandrake]

I'm not sure I like Stables and Lab this low. I'd like them at least over Count. They're not very special, but often they're the glue that holds everything together. They're a key card as long as there's no other way to increase hand size, and that isn't as rare as it sounds.

re: between trashing and junking, I don't know how I feel about it, because both are very good. In games with both, I prefer trashing first, because if you pick up a junker later, your thinner deck will be able to play that junker more often. Sometimes that's not as good, i.e. when the junker costs $5 and the trasher is $3/$4 you may want to aim for the $5 first.

The best I can say is that you should trash as long as you can get away with it.

PPE: I'm fine with Soothsayer this low. It's good in slogs/money games, and only those games, which makes it a very restrictive buy. That +1 Card helps more than it looks.

[werothegreat]

I'm most surprised that Swamp Hag is higher than Soothsayer.

[LastFootnote]

I don't see why Soothsayer is that low though.

Well as we know, in order for a card to be any good at all, it needs to draw cards, provide +2 Actions, or thin your deck. Not only is Soothsayer a stop card, but it gains another stop card every time you play it. And on top of that, it even lets your opponents draw cards! It's like some sort of joke! I'm surprised it's not at the bottom of these rankings.

[Beyond Awesome]

I'm most surprised that Swamp Hag is higher than Soothsayer.

Swamp hag can be brutal, especially when you pile them up

[werothegreat]

I'm most surprised that Swamp Hag is higher than Soothsayer.

Swamp hag can be brutal, especially when you pile them up

Swamp Hag is only more brutal than Witch/Sea Hag/Mountebank/Young Witch/Soothsayer if your opponent buys more than one card.  And it can be less brutal if your opponent forgoes buying, or just buys an Event.  I do like Swamp Hag a lot, I just think Soothsayer is stronger.

I'm also incredibly surprised that Haunted Woods is as high as it is.  It's Attack is basically Bureaucrat, and while its next-turn draw is super awesome, it does nothing the turn you play it.

[jsh357]

Soothsayer's drawback is pretty bad (I mean the card draw, not the Gold), especially if the opponent has a trasher. That's why I ranked it lower than the other Cursers. If the game ends up being short, Soothsayer is especially bad since it does nothing on your turn and you will probably only get to play it a couple of times. It's useful in money games without much else going on or with Remodellers, but I'm generally hesitant to go for it. Considering I beat players who go for it and ignore it myself a fair amount I think I have a decent grasp on this. I think its placing on the list is fine. It's not in the low-low tiers. LF's post is (I assume) joking, but it's unintentionally on point in some ways. You shouldn't buy Soothsayer without a plan and without weighing its disadvantages. This makes it a lot worse than, say, Mountebank, which has very few drawbacks.

[Chris is me]

I'm most surprised that Swamp Hag is higher than Soothsayer.

Swamp hag can be brutal, especially when you pile them up

Swamp Hag is only more brutal than Witch/Sea Hag/Mountebank/Young Witch/Soothsayer if your opponent buys more than one card.  And it can be less brutal if your opponent forgoes buying, or just buys an Event.  I do like Swamp Hag a lot, I just think Soothsayer is stronger.

I'm also incredibly surprised that Haunted Woods is as high as it is.  It's Attack is basically Bureaucrat, and while its next-turn draw is super awesome, it does nothing the turn you play it.

It's a bit hard to forego buying a card every turn, once an engine is going with 2 Swamp Hags, but it can be worked around. I think Soothsayer and Swamp Hag are of comparable strength - I think Soothsayer is a bit better than people give it credit for but you need to do something with all the Gold for it to be a slam dunk.

Haunted Woods I go back and forth on. I keep declining to buy it, but when I do I'm usually very much rewarded for it, just because of how great an 8 card hand is when my opponent has a shitty next turn.

[Awaclus]

Soothsayer is too high. Knights, Count and Horn of Plenty are too low.

[theJester]

I don't see why Soothsayer is that low though.

Well as we know, in order for a card to be any good at all, it needs to draw cards, provide +2 Actions, or thin your deck. Not only is Soothsayer a stop card, but it gains another stop card every time you play it. And on top of that, it even lets your opponents draw cards! It's like some sort of joke! I'm surprised it's not at the bottom of these rankings.

Soothsayer is too high. Knights, Count and Horn of Plenty are too low.

I think that sometimes people evaluate cards purely from engine point of view i.e. they asses overall strength of the card solely based on how it functions in an engine. Going by that mindset, Soothsayer is indeed rated too high - it stops your own deck while giving an opponent an extra card and a pitiful Curse (that he'll trash anyhow due to his strong trashing).

The thing is, not all boards are engine boards. What's the best (or close to best) card in BM and slog games - Gold. And what's the worst - Curse. In such games, Soothsayer dramatically improves your deck while destroying your opponent's, all at the minor drawback of +1 card (minor since the average card value is not that high, so extra card often doesn't mean much). You just have to remember not to play it in the late game, but but that time you're swimming in Gold anyway.

From my experience - if there's a dominant slog/BM strategy on the board, Soothsayer will be a part of it. If there's somewhat weak to decent engine potential, Soothsayer will kill it. On the boards with no trashing (and e.g. no opportunity to play Lighthouse every or almost every turn) player ignoring Soothsayer will often find himself unable to do anything due to constant curses he's receiving). All in all, I think Soothsayer's rating is well deserved.

[LastFootnote]

LF's post is (I assume) joking, but it's unintentionally on point in some ways.

Yes, it was meant as satire.