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[silverspawn]

This game uses asher9++ - see the second post for a detailed description.

Player List:

• chairs - Vanilla Townie (lynched Day 4)
• UmbrageOfSnow - Vanilla Townie (endgamed)
• Witherweaver - Vanilla Townie (lynched Day 2)
• gkrieg13 - Godfather - WINS
• yuma - Vanilla Townie (endgamed]
• Awaclus - One-Shot Strongman - WINS
• ashersky - Roleblocker - WINS
• faust - Universal Backup (died Night 1)
• Hydrad - Doctor (died Night 2)
• TwistedArcher - Roleblocker (died Night 3)
• Jimmmmm - Vanilla Townie (endgamed)
• pingpongsam - Vanilla Townie (lynched Day 1)

Tagged: scott_pilgrim, Axxle, pacovf, mail-mi

Navigation:
Day 1 start
Day 2 start
Day 3 start
Day 4 start
Game End


The Rules of Mafia apply for this game, along with a bunch of largely recycled changes:

• Game days will last 10/9/8/7/7... real days. Nights will last 1 or 2 real days.
• Votes need to follow the syntax of vote: playername or vote: {nickname} wherein {nickname} is any common abbreviation for the player. If a vote does not follow this syntax (that includes votes with spelling errors), it will not be counted.
• You may vote: nolynch. If a majority of these votes is reached, a no-lynch will occur.
• All Town Players will have personal QT's. All submissions or conformations are preferably done via QT.
• Night Actions may be submitted up until an hour before the next day starts.
• All Players with a usable Night Action are required to check in during every night. This means either using their power or making it clear that they are purposefully not using them.
• If the game stalls and neither side is willing to lynch or nightkill a player, mafia will be forced to act.
• If a player becomes inactive, other players may request prods on him. In extreme cases, further actions may be taken based on the mod's discretion.
• Alignment will be referenced as Writing-Aligned or Emmure-Aligned, because why not!
• It is forbidden to publicly ask for syntax specific questions about PM's from the mod. For example, if someone claims cop, you may not ask how the pm giving him his result is worded.
• The town wincon is "You win when all mafia players have been eliminated."
• The mafia wincon is "You win when all town players are eliminated and at least one player of your faction is still alive, or nothing can prevent that from happening."
• Mod posts will use this hopefully pleasant shade of blue, and will always be bolded. Similar formatting should be avoided by players.
• Players may not quote anything from the game outside of this thread while the game is running.
• Each player is required to respond to his initial PM stating his role (not his flavor). That means e.g. 'VT', 'Cop', or 'Mafia Goon'.

The flavor of this game will be based on My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, aswell as on writing in the broadest sense, and a little bit of music... I'm not sure what I'll do with this concept, so it may go places.

[silverspawn]

Asher9++ is a semi-open setup for 12 players. Setup generation is a randomized process that is open and explained below.

All games include a Universal Back-Up and a Godfather. The remaining 10 roles are determined by rolling six random numbers from 1-100. Each roll is separate. The following number ranges are assigned letters as shown:

1-50: T (Townie. This directly influences scum power roles.) (50/100)
51-60: E (“Either” Cop or Doctor) (10/100)
61-65: C (Cop) (5/100)
66-70: D (Doctor) (5/100)
71-80: V (Vigilante) (10/100)
81-90: M (Mason) (10/100)
91-100: B (Blocker) (10/100)

After the letters have been assigned, the mod refers to the list below to determine which power roles are included.

E Roles*
E = 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop
EE = 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop x2
EEE = Doctor OR Cop; 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop
EEEE = Doctor OR Cop; 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop x2
EEEEE = Doctor OR Cop x2; 1 -Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop
EEEEEE = Doctor OR Cop x2; 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop x2

C Roles
C = 1-Shot Cop
CC = Cop
CCC = Cop; 1-Shot Cop
CCCC = Cop; 1-Shot Cop x2
CCCCC = Cop x2; 1-Shot Cop
CCCCCC = Cop x2; 1-Shot Cop x2

D Roles
D = Doctor
DD = Doctor; 1-Shot Doctor
DDD = Doctor; 1-Shot Doctor x2
DDDD = Doctor x2; 1-Shot Doctor
DDDDD = Doctor x2; 1-Shot Doctor x2
DDDDDD = Doctor x3

Vigilante Roles
V = 1-Shot Vigilante
VV = Vigilante
VVV = Vigilante; 1-Shot Vigilante
VVVV = Vigilante; 1-Shot Vigilante x2
VVVVV = Vigilante x2; 1-Shot Vigilante
VVVVVV = Vigilante x2; 1-Shot Vigilante x2

Mason Roles
M** = 1 Mason
MM = Innocent Child (Confirmed at start of Day 1)
MMM = 2 Masons
MMMM = 2 Masons; Innocent Child
MMMMM = 3 Masons
MMMMMM = 2 Masons; 2 Masons (i.e. two separate pairings)

Blocker Roles
B = Roleblocker
BB = Roleblocker; 1-Shot Roleblocker
BBB = Roleblocker; 1-Shot Roleblocker x2
BBBB = Roleblocker x2; 1-Shot Roleblocker
BBBBB = Roleblocker x2; 1-Shot Roleblocker x2
BBBBBB = Roleblocker x3

Scum Roles (In addition to the Godfather)
TTTTTT*** = Goon x2
TTTTT*** = Goon x2
TTTT = 1-Shot Strongman; Roleblocker
TTT = 1-Shot Strongman; Roleblocker
TT = Strongman; Roleblocker
T = Strongman; Roleblocker
0 Ts = Strongman; Roleblocker; 1-Shot Bulletproof****

After power roles are determined from the table above, Vanilla Townies are added to arrive at 12 players.

* "Or" roles are determined randomly
** Single M rolls result in the Universal Backup converting to a Mason
*** 5 or 6 T rolls result in a scum team of Goon - Goon - Godfather. During N0, the team may elect to have one of the two Goons be 1-Shot Bulletproof. This is optional and not required.
**** If there are zero Ts, one member of the mafia team is randomly 1-Shot Bulletproof.

Clarifications:

--If a 1-Shot PR is the first PR to die, the UB will inherit that role, even if the shot was used up. The UB will not receive a new shot.
--If the Universal Backup converts to a Mason due to a single M roll, that player will not be informed of the conversion.
--Mafia Strongman modifier defeats one doctor protection or roleblocker. If two or more doctors successfully protect the target, the kill will fail. If a doctor protects the target and the Strongman is blocked, the kill will fail.  If two roleblockers target the Strongman, the kill will fail.
--The Bulletproof modifier will be revealed upon death, if selected or assigned.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

/in

[Witherweaver]

/in

[gkrieg13]

/in

[scott_pilgrim]

/tag

[yuma]

/in

[Jimmmmm]

yuma!!!1!!!

Welcome back.

[Awaclus]

/in

[chairs]

Pink Fluffy Unicorns Dancing on Rainbows!

[chairs]

...and now I've realized SS already /in'd me

[ashersky]

I should already be /in.

[faust]

/in

 

/in

[ashersky]

I'm assuming the flavor will be SFW?  I know MLP fanfic can get awfully...?

[silverspawn]

I'm assuming the flavor will be SFW?  I know MLP fanfic can get awfully...?

of course!

[pacovf]

Of course it can get awfully...!

[Axxle]

/tag

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm assuming the flavor will be SFW?  I know MLP fanfic can get awfully...?

I think it would be hilarious to be in a bastard game with some terrible, non-SFW fanfic.  I don't really like bastard though.

But like terrible to the point of absurd I mean, steamy Spock-on-Kirk-on-Vampire-on-Horse action

[Awaclus]

I think it would be hilarious to be in a bastard game with some terrible, non-SFW fanfic.  I don't really like bastard though.

But like terrible to the point of absurd I mean, steamy Spock-on-Kirk-on-Vampire-on-Horse action

Why not good non-SFW fanfic?

[silverspawn]

I've never read a serious non SFW fanfic, and I'm certainly not going to write one any time soon.

[Witherweaver]

I've never read a serious non SFW fanfic, and I'm certainly not going to write one any time soon.

That will come later on in life, on a lonely night with a bottle of Jack.

[Awaclus]

I've never read a serious non SFW fanfic, and I'm certainly not going to write one any time soon.

Of MLP, or any at all? If it's the latter, then that's pretty surprising.

That will come later on in life, on a lonely night with a bottle of Jack.

I hadn't thought of using a bottle while reading erotic fanfics, but I suppose you can actually make that work in various ways as long as you're careful.

[silverspawn]

I've never read a serious non SFW fanfic, and I'm certainly not going to write one any time soon.

Of MLP, or any at all? If it's the latter, then that's pretty surprising.

That will come later on in life, on a lonely night with a bottle of Jack.

I hadn't thought of using a bottle while reading erotic fanfics, but I suppose you can actually make that work in various ways as long as you're careful.

on MLP. I've read some others, but the vast majority of them were pretty bad.

or, well, if we're being technical then gore is also not safe for work, in which case I've read a bunch of MLP stuff.

[Hydrad]

/in

[Twistedarcher]

/in

[Jimmmmm]

Um.

I came to /in, but realised I was on the list already.

How did I get on the list, ss?

/in now anyway.

[silverspawn]

Um.

I came to /in, but realised I was on the list already.

How did I get on the list, ss?

/in now anyway.

oh, it looks like I accidentally put you in when I went through the initial list of /in's

[pingpongsam]

Well, I hate open setups and especially asher because everyone else seems to parse what the setup is and I can't  but, since it is that time of the year... /in

[Witherweaver]

Well, I hate open setups and especially asher because everyone else seems to parse what the setup is and I can't  but, since it is that time of the year... /in

You just like closed setups because you've set the stage for a completely believable fake claim, no matter how crazy it sounds.

[Jimmmmm]

Um.

I came to /in, but realised I was on the list already.

How did I get on the list, ss?

/in now anyway.

oh, it looks like I accidentally put you in when I went through the initial list of /in's

Hmm well there you go. Happy ending I guess.

[pingpongsam]

Well, I hate open setups and especially asher because everyone else seems to parse what the setup is and I can't  but, since it is that time of the year... /in

You just like closed setups because you've set the stage for a completely believable fake claim, no matter how crazy it sounds.

To be fair, well, ok then, you got me. But.. no, you got me. I'm just sayin... well, you got me. Although there have been some crazy claims of mine that turned out to be true. But yeah, you got me.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

With this playerlist, the odds are probably better that you'd wind up scumbuddies with someone who understands the details of the setup than not!  So just ask your scumbuddy.

Out of unrelated curiosity, how do you feel about semi-random open setups where you can figure out what the chances of things are easily?  Is it the openness that bugs you, or the specific method a few of them use with the rolling letters that bugs you?

[ashersky]

/sendmemypmcat

[pingpongsam]

With this playerlist, the odds are probably better that you'd wind up scumbuddies with someone who understands the details of the setup than not!  So just ask your scumbuddy.

Out of unrelated curiosity, how do you feel about semi-random open setups where you can figure out what the chances of things are easily?  Is it the openness that bugs you, or the specific method a few of them use with the rolling letters that bugs you?

Yeah, I don't care for open setups period. The ones that can be solved by the logical, clear headed ones I like even less. I favor RMM where it's about interaction and night actions. The thing about logical certainties is that they detract from gut-reads and interfere with playstyles intended to solicit responses for later inspection. That is, I find open setups quite constraining. Nevertheless, I have played some fine games with open setups and I can hope that this shall be one of them. I am really feeling the player lineup.

[Witherweaver]

/sendmemypmcat

PMCat is an actual cat who comes to your house with a hand-written PM message tied to a string around his neck.  It's cute, but it becomes a bit of a pain if you're allergic to cats.

[Witherweaver]

you'd wind up scumbuddies with someone

Yeah,

Vote: PPS for admitting to being scum.

[Witherweaver]

Well, I hate open setups and especially asher because everyone else seems to parse what the setup is and I can't  but, since it is that time of the year... /in

You just like closed setups because you've set the stage for a completely believable fake claim, no matter how crazy it sounds.

To be fair, well, ok then, you got me. But.. no, you got me. I'm just sayin... well, you got me. Although there have been some crazy claims of mine that turned out to be true. But yeah, you got me.

I was referring to your Dice Mafia claim, where you were town and... trying ... to tell the truth.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

The PM cats are also a pain when your own PM cats get territorial.  It just becomes a mass of fluffy fur, teeth, claws, and letters.

[pacovf]

/tag

[silverspawn]

Thread locked except for /tags.

PM's are going out now. They may not quite be what you expected... but I regret nothing. Flavor is independent of roles and randomly assigned to players. Not necessarily independent of alignment, but scum will have fakeclaims where necessary.

Game starts 24 hours after everyone has confirmed!

[mail-mi]

/tag

[silverspawn]

Short notes about the PMs:

Wincon's are not included, they're in the rules. Role description is only partly included, but everything works as normal in this seutp - should you have any questions, ask ahead.

Town players have personal QT's, scum just has the factional QT.

There is also no basic format for PM's this game, they all look a little different, but remember that asking syntax questions to other players is forbidden either way.

Waiting for confirmations... Thread still locked.

[silverspawn]

All Players have confirmed. Night 0 begins now and ends at Friday 11th, 11 am Forum Time.

No Actions can be performed during Night 0.

[silverspawn]

'The essential thing about fictional writing is to value the intelligence of your audience,' Twilight read, a slight frown making its way onto her face. 'Following this concept not only simplifies the writing process due to the absence of contrivances, but it can also be used stylistically to great effect. If, for example, you want a character present or absent, you should never come up with a reason for it just to have a reason. Three's a Crowd was terrible, not least because it spend half its running time getting rid of the cast which it didn't even have to include in the first place-'

“Hi.”

Twilight's body jerked around, wincing hard. “Pinkie! What in Celestia's name are you-” But she stopped, abandoning her line mid-sentence and turning back towards the book.

'... in the first place. See, this is a perfect example. I could have made up a lame reason for why Pinkie is now here, but why do that? If I had done it, the readers who know her character are just going to get annoyed because I used her randomness as a plot contrivance.'

Blinking several times, Twilight grasped her quill in her telekinesis, putting it onto the sheet.

'But what happens if I ask her why she's here?'

“Pinkie,” she said simultaneously, “How did you get here?”

“Dunno. I was just talking to Gummy and then – SWOOPS – I suddenly stood here!”

'Yes, well. Here we have an exceptional case where the reader is also a character, but it doesn't take away from the concept. Plus, do you honestly think that every time a writer claims that character A went to place X because of a specific thing, this specific thing really happened? Who determines that he didn't simply teleport him there and came up with a reason in retrospect? In fact, the only way for said reason to hold true in the story itself is if the writer discovered it as a logical progression in his story, and then had the character be at place X because of it, rather than the other way around. Anyway, this is all marginal. The main point of-'

Twilight stopped reading. 'Wait a moment,' she wrote at the bottom of the page, before turning back around.

“Pinkie? How come you are so quiet?”

“Oh?” Pinkie giggled. “Well, it's just that what you're doing seemed super-duper important, and I didn't want to interrupt you, especially cause I came here all uninvited and without even planing to myself, but if you want I can totally talk more and-”

“No, no, that's fine.” Twilight gave a smile. “Actually, it'd be great if you stay quiet for just another minute. I appreciate it a lot. This is really important, uh...” Her frown deepened. “I think.”

'- all of this is a different one. It is an opportunity – a game you'll be playing, but I can't tell you the rules just yet... ha, ha, ha, see what I did there? See how everything could be ruined by lying to you here? No, as you will guess I simply have not thought of any rules yet. We will do this all spontaneously. I'll come up with stuff, and you must try to do whatever I have in mind. But you have to, uh, find the... whatever they are, and deal with them somehow. That should be enough. Yeah. The music will push you to start, but you may read along for as long as you can endure it. Oh, and you can try to find your partners, too.'

Twilight stared at the paper, unsure if what she read was making sense or not.

“Pinkie... can you keep yourself busy for a while longer?” Pensively chewing her lip, Twilight flapped a few pages of the book, watching as text appeared in whichever page she opened. “I need to... huh?”

'Pacing is the most overrated concept in writing,' said the book, but Twilight payed it no mind. 'You aren't reading anymore, are you? Well-'



Something... was there. Something so mercilessly disgusting, so indeterminably abhorrent, that she did nothing at first, simply staring into the air while the horror gradually pierced through the soft blanket of anesthesia with which her shock had covered her mind. It took her a full twenty seconds to realize that it was music... music that squealed, screeched, and then crunched, and then it screamed, and then it snarled. Twilight's hair curled upwards, something walked up her throat, slowly, steadily. “Uh, uhhhhhhh....” She could feel her eyes tearing, every muscle in her body cringing under the merciless onslaught.

'No-one actually cares about pacing, it's just a term people like to throw around to feel smart. If every section in your story is fun to read, then it doesn't matter how long-'

But Twilight had long stopped reading, pushing the quill onto the paper in quiet desperation.

'GET ME OUT OF HERE!'

“Pinkie?” Twilight called, her vision bleary under the tears she couldn't suppress.

“Twilight?” Pinkie Pie rushed up the stairs, her hair straight, her face full of horror. But then, just as Twilight was about to say something it stopped.

“Ah...... ... ... ... AAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!” Twilgiht screamed in pain as it resumed,



a deep and false growl over a mercilessly simplistic beat. “Nooooooo!!!”

“Twilight, make it STOOOOOOOPPPPP!!”

She could feel Pinkie Pie running towards her, the pain carved deeply into her skin, when suddenly...

[silverspawn]

Day 1 starts!

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.0

Not Voting (12): chairs, UmbrageOfSnow, Witherweaver, gkrieg13, yuma, Awaclus, ashersky, faust, Hydrad, TwistedArcher, Jimmmmm, pingpongsam

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 21, 3 PM forum time.

[Witherweaver]

Hooray!

Vote: Yuma

[yuma]

hya guys.

[yuma]

So I have been gone about a year...

Anything I need to know? Anything change? Who is still around, anyone else disappear? has this setup been played since raerae and I were destroyed day1/2 long, long ago...?

[ashersky]

Hello.

What the hell with the flavor?

[ashersky]

Also...for old time's sake...

I have a plan!

[pingpongsam]

Vote: pingpongsam, no way that guy isn't scum.

[ashersky]

vote: faust

That's not part of the plan.

[Witherweaver]

So I have been gone about a year...

Anything I need to know? Anything change? Who is still around, anyone else disappear? has this setup been played since raerae and I were destroyed day1/2 long, long ago...?

I'm always Town.  That's about it.

[yuma]

Also...for old time's sake...

I have a plan!

If it involves mass claiming from the very beginning I am all for it.

I ran a couple of simulations and I think in general mass claiming will be beneficial for town.

I dont' think it will be game breaking or setup solving (obviously the guy who designed this setup designed it too well for that) but it does put mafia in an awkward position from the beginning and forces them to commit to a role early on.

There are obviously risks, but I think in generally they are small and are probably worth it for the payback.

[gkrieg13]

vote:WW
He is not always town.

[yuma]

vote: faust

That's not part of the plan.

think you mean vote: PPS

Cause faust hasn't posted yet... and selfvoting. I have changed a little bit in my absence, but I still have thing about self voting

[pingpongsam]

but I still have thing about self voting

I know, right? That's why I voted for him too.

[Witherweaver]

I vote PPS claims first!

[pingpongsam]

I refuse to claim.

[yuma]

I refuse to claim.

BUT WHY? It will be fun!

Seriously. Have we ever had a game where we just mass claimed out of the gates. Conventional thinking has always been that it is bad. But do we have any empirical data to back this up or just theoretics?

[pingpongsam]

I refuse to claim.

BUT WHY? It will be fun!

Seriously. Have we ever had a game where we just mass claimed out of the gates. Conventional thinking has always been that it is bad. But do we have any empirical data to back this up or just theoretics?

Because the last time I claimed VT on day 1 they mislynched me.

[Awaclus]

Vote: silverspawn

He is clearly scum here.

[yuma]

I refuse to claim.

BUT WHY? It will be fun!

Seriously. Have we ever had a game where we just mass claimed out of the gates. Conventional thinking has always been that it is bad. But do we have any empirical data to back this up or just theoretics?

Because the last time I claimed VT on day 1 they mislynched me.

Ha ha... I remember that. That was pretty funny.

But what I am suggesting is a coordinated claim instead of just jumping the gun without the go-ahead of the town at large. I don't think people should just claim willy-nilly.

[Awaclus]

Well, massclaim seems to hardly ever work out in this setup even when you do it later when more information is available. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

[pingpongsam]

This is how it works. If you're scum you lie and claim VT. If you're VT you tell the truth and claim VT. If you are a Town PR you hide yourself by claiming VT.

So we all massclaim VT and that is so informative and helpful that Town just wins the game D1.

[chairs]

Hello.

What the hell with the flavor?

It's silverspawn.

I'm not sure what the idea of Emmure as Mafia was about though.

[yuma]

Well, massclaim seems to hardly ever work out in this setup even when you do it later when more information is available. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

So the big benefits to me for mass claiming early (not necessarily mass claiming in general later as that is a separate issue) are:

1. force mafia into making a decision early on about what they should claim. This pigeon-holes them into a role that they can't escape from. If they claim a PR they are stuck with that for the rest of the game and the setup or later night results may /out them in their lie.

2. it can cause the pool of potential mafia suspects to be shrunk. Right now, if everyone that is town removes themselves from the pool we are looking for 3 mafia in 11 players. claiming will generally create two separate pools (1 for PRs and 1 for VTs). Within the PR pool there will often be confirmed town players (Masons for example or the UB) and often ends up looking something like--depending on what the mafia fake claim, which of course we don't know what they will do (1 mafia out of 3) for the VTs it can end up looking something more like looking for 2 mafia out of 7. This numbers can go up and down and sometimes aren't any better but there are scenarios where the lynch pool is reduced to help the lynches be more likely to be correct

Of course there are downsides, PRs being outed without using their role. Really this only applies to cops (and to a lesser extent docs) because cops are the only PRs that require their night action to be disclosed at the start of the next day. So a Vig or RB (1-shots especially) can still use their roles at night (of course this doesn't account for the potential of mafia having a roleblocker.

So basically I think the idea isn't to figure out which setup we are in. But to instead shrink the lynch pool down to a reasonable size which is a boon especially on the early days. In my opinion giving up a PR for a mafia lynch day1 is a worthwhile trade, which while not guaranteed (on both ends) would be the goal and risk.

[yuma]

This is how it works. If you're scum you lie and claim VT. If you're VT you tell the truth and claim VT. If you are a Town PR you hide yourself by claiming VT.

So we all massclaim VT and that is so informative and helpful that Town just wins the game D1.

If you are a town PR why would you hide as claiming VT? that would be silly.

And if all the mafia claimed VT that would be great! We would just lynch VTs and the pool size would be 3 mafia in 9 instead of 3 mafia in 12! Awesome!

[chairs]

This is how it works. If you're scum you lie and claim VT. If you're VT you tell the truth and claim VT. If you are a Town PR you hide yourself by claiming VT.

So we all massclaim VT and that is so informative and helpful that Town just wins the game D1.

If you are a town PR why would you hide as claiming VT? that would be silly.

And if all the mafia claimed VT that would be great! We would just lynch VTs and the pool size would be 3 mafia in 9 instead of 3 mafia in 12! Awesome!

Scumslip.

The only people who could have an assumption regarding PR count at this time are scum.

vote: yuma

[Witherweaver]

This is how it works. If you're scum you lie and claim VT. If you're VT you tell the truth and claim VT. If you are a Town PR you hide yourself by claiming VT.

So we all massclaim VT and that is so informative and helpful that Town just wins the game D1.

I'm a VT

[pingpongsam]

This is how it works. If you're scum you lie and claim VT. If you're VT you tell the truth and claim VT. If you are a Town PR you hide yourself by claiming VT.

So we all massclaim VT and that is so informative and helpful that Town just wins the game D1.

If you are a town PR why would you hide as claiming VT? that would be silly.

And if all the mafia claimed VT that would be great! We would just lynch VTs and the pool size would be 3 mafia in 9 instead of 3 mafia in 12! Awesome!

Okay, so clearly scum is going to claim PR (at least 1 of them), so the strategy has to become lynch claimed PRs since the pool from which there are obvious liars to hit is likely much smaller. Meanwhile the scum who claimed VT know which PR to kill when it is most beneficial to do so otherwise hitting VTs until the time is right.

[yuma]

huh?

[pingpongsam]

This is how it works. If you're scum you lie and claim VT. If you're VT you tell the truth and claim VT. If you are a Town PR you hide yourself by claiming VT.

So we all massclaim VT and that is so informative and helpful that Town just wins the game D1.

If you are a town PR why would you hide as claiming VT? that would be silly.

And if all the mafia claimed VT that would be great! We would just lynch VTs and the pool size would be 3 mafia in 9 instead of 3 mafia in 12! Awesome!

Scumslip.

The only people who could have an assumption regarding PR count at this time are scum.

vote: yuma

See, I don't even know how to tell if this is true or not.

[yuma]

This is how it works. If you're scum you lie and claim VT. If you're VT you tell the truth and claim VT. If you are a Town PR you hide yourself by claiming VT.

So we all massclaim VT and that is so informative and helpful that Town just wins the game D1.

If you are a town PR why would you hide as claiming VT? that would be silly.

And if all the mafia claimed VT that would be great! We would just lynch VTs and the pool size would be 3 mafia in 9 instead of 3 mafia in 12! Awesome!

Okay, so clearly scum is going to claim PR (at least 1 of them), so the strategy has to become lynch claimed PRs since the pool from which there are obvious liars to hit is likely much smaller. Meanwhile the scum who claimed VT know which PR to kill when it is most beneficial to do so otherwise hitting VTs until the time is right.

It doesn't have to become anything. We could still lynch from among the VTs...

[yuma]

This is how it works. If you're scum you lie and claim VT. If you're VT you tell the truth and claim VT. If you are a Town PR you hide yourself by claiming VT.

So we all massclaim VT and that is so informative and helpful that Town just wins the game D1.

If you are a town PR why would you hide as claiming VT? that would be silly.

And if all the mafia claimed VT that would be great! We would just lynch VTs and the pool size would be 3 mafia in 9 instead of 3 mafia in 12! Awesome!

Scumslip.

The only people who could have an assumption regarding PR count at this time are scum.

vote: yuma

No it isn't. I am not counting PRs. I am counting mafia, which everyone knows...

Scum Roles (In addition to the Godfather)
TTTTTT*** = Goon x2
TTTTT*** = Goon x2
TTTT = 1-Shot Strongman; Roleblocker
TTT = 1-Shot Strongman; Roleblocker
TT = Strongman; Roleblocker
T = Strongman; Roleblocker
0 Ts = Strongman; Roleblocker; 1-Shot Bulletproof****

all setups have three mafia

[yuma]

vote: chairs for lurking and then only posting when he thought was an opportunistic moment to pounce

[pingpongsam]

This idea is either slightly (but statistically insignificant) better than No Lynch which is a terrible idea without question.

[pingpongsam]

chairs isn't lurking. when chairs lurks you don't see him hardly at all ever. This is highly active chairs.
The only sane vote on chairs at this moment is for playing outside his meta.

[yuma]

chairs isn't lurking. when chairs lurks you don't see him hardly at all ever. This is highly active chairs.
The only sane vote on chairs at this moment is for playing outside his meta.

Ok vote: chairs for playing outside his meta.

[yuma]

This idea is either slightly (but statistically insignificant) better than No Lynch which is a terrible idea without question.

I disagree and unless you show me how I will continue. But that is ok. I think it would be fun and potentially beneficial to mass claim. It hasnt' been done before so I don't know why people (including me of the past) are so sure that it is terrible.

Honestly I think the risk is relatively small and the reward is also relatively small (but potentially really big because it puts the onus on mafia to not make a critical mistake).

[Awaclus]

No it isn't. I am not counting PRs. I am counting mafia, which everyone knows...

How do you know that it becomes 3 mafia out of 9 VTs?

[pingpongsam]

This idea is either slightly (but statistically insignificant) better than No Lynch which is a terrible idea without question.

I disagree and unless you show me how I will continue. But that is ok. I think it would be fun and potentially beneficial to mass claim. It hasnt' been done before so I don't know why people (including me of the past) are so sure that it is terrible.

Honestly I think the risk is relatively small and the reward is also relatively small (but potentially really big because it puts the onus on mafia to not make a critical mistake).

The issue is, in a matter of minutes between just the two of us we contrived 3 wholly different outcomes for this which means that there isn't any way to determine what the actual outcome is even within a suitable subset of possible outcomes. Thus, it is dis-informative and by the time the actuality of the course of action begins to pan out it will be too late for the duped Townies.

[pingpongsam]

No it isn't. I am not counting PRs. I am counting mafia, which everyone knows...

How do you know that it becomes 3 mafia out of 9 VTs?

Because in the scenario described all persons claimed VT.

[yuma]

No it isn't. I am not counting PRs. I am counting mafia, which everyone knows...

How do you know that it becomes 3 mafia out of 9 VTs?

Because in the scenario described all persons claimed VT.

Righto!

[yuma]

except it would still be 3 mafia in 12 VTs instead so it wouldn't be any better at all... 

which is why everyone claiming VT doesn't do anything at all!

[ashersky]

So glad yuma's back.

vote: yuma

[ashersky]

Super towny right out of the gate yuma = scum!yuma.

[pingpongsam]

If I were a Town PR forced to claim I would claim VT. Thus, I am fundamentally opposed.

[yuma]

This idea is either slightly (but statistically insignificant) better than No Lynch which is a terrible idea without question.

I disagree and unless you show me how I will continue. But that is ok. I think it would be fun and potentially beneficial to mass claim. It hasnt' been done before so I don't know why people (including me of the past) are so sure that it is terrible.

Honestly I think the risk is relatively small and the reward is also relatively small (but potentially really big because it puts the onus on mafia to not make a critical mistake).

The issue is, in a matter of minutes between just the two of us we contrived 3 wholly different outcomes for this which means that there isn't any way to determine what the actual outcome is even within a suitable subset of possible outcomes. Thus, it is dis-informative and by the time the actuality of the course of action begins to pan out it will be too late for the duped Townies.

Well sure. I am not really interested in attempting to figure out what the possible outcome will be. That is impossible. What I am interested in is just trying it out so that we can look back at this game and see what happened.

We have never (to my knowledge) had a mass claim day1 in any game. I would like to see what will happen when that happens and provide some emperical data on that subject. I think and anticipate that it will be beneficial, enough that I am willing to risk a possible bad outcome (even then I think it would be small) to see. Plus it would be FUN! trying new things is fun!

[yuma]

So glad yuma's back.

vote: yuma

Happy face 

sad face 

[yuma]

If I were a Town PR forced to claim I would claim VT. Thus, I am fundamentally opposed.

ok. well if you are fundamentally opposed then I will drop it. I am not going to force anyone. I would like to try to talk people into it. BUT I do want to do it at some point in a mafia game. I think it would 1. be good for town in that game and 2. provide evidence for the future.

[ashersky]

My plan is, if there are masons, claim right away.  There are good reasons for this.

[gkrieg13]

This idea is either slightly (but statistically insignificant) better than No Lynch which is a terrible idea without question.

I disagree and unless you show me how I will continue. But that is ok. I think it would be fun and potentially beneficial to mass claim. It hasnt' been done before so I don't know why people (including me of the past) are so sure that it is terrible.

Honestly I think the risk is relatively small and the reward is also relatively small (but potentially really big because it puts the onus on mafia to not make a critical mistake).

The issue is, in a matter of minutes between just the two of us we contrived 3 wholly different outcomes for this which means that there isn't any way to determine what the actual outcome is even within a suitable subset of possible outcomes. Thus, it is dis-informative and by the time the actuality of the course of action begins to pan out it will be too late for the duped Townies.

Well sure. I am not really interested in attempting to figure out what the possible outcome will be. That is impossible. What I am interested in is just trying it out so that we can look back at this game and see what happened.

We have never (to my knowledge) had a mass claim day1 in any game. I would like to see what will happen when that happens and provide some emperical data on that subject. I think and anticipate that it will be beneficial, enough that I am willing to risk a possible bad outcome (even then I think it would be small) to see. Plus it would be FUN! trying new things is fun!

I don't feel like a mass claim is very beneficial for town.  I think it just outs our PRs.  Maybe on a different day, but today it seems like a bad idea to me.

PPE

[ashersky]

vote: TwistedArcher

[pingpongsam]

If I were a Town PR forced to claim I would claim VT. Thus, I am fundamentally opposed.

ok. well if you are fundamentally opposed then I will drop it. I am not going to force anyone. I would like to try to talk people into it. BUT I do want to do it at some point in a mafia game. I think it would 1. be good for town in that game and 2. provide evidence for the future.

If you truly support the notion you would first claim yourself.

[Witherweaver]

My plan is, if there are masons, claim right away.  There are good reasons for this.

Why?  You'd totally try to lynch them!

[gkrieg13]

If I were a Town PR forced to claim I would claim VT. Thus, I am fundamentally opposed.

ok. well if you are fundamentally opposed then I will drop it. I am not going to force anyone. I would like to try to talk people into it. BUT I do want to do it at some point in a mafia game. I think it would 1. be good for town in that game and 2. provide evidence for the future.

I doubt the evidence would be that strong.  Otherwise every mafia game ever would just be a mass claim D1 and then seeing if people stick with their roles. 

[yuma]

My plan is, if there are masons, claim right away.  There are good reasons for this.

I agree. Any other roles that should claim right away?

[Witherweaver]

Didn't we try the massclaim Day 1 thing recently?

Also, doesn't Yuma propose this like every game?

[Witherweaver]

My plan is, if there are masons, claim right away.  There are good reasons for this.

I agree. Any other roles that should claim right away?

Mafia Goon
Mafia Strongman
Mafia Roleblocker

[gkrieg13]

My plan is, if there are masons, claim right away.  There are good reasons for this.

What are these reasons?

[yuma]

If I were a Town PR forced to claim I would claim VT. Thus, I am fundamentally opposed.

ok. well if you are fundamentally opposed then I will drop it. I am not going to force anyone. I would like to try to talk people into it. BUT I do want to do it at some point in a mafia game. I think it would 1. be good for town in that game and 2. provide evidence for the future.

If you truly support the notion you would first claim yourself.

I would, but only if we had a town consensus. Me claiming all by my lonesome like you did way back when is not in anyway beneficial and will likely only result in me getting lynched.

[Witherweaver]

If I were a Town PR forced to claim I would claim VT. Thus, I am fundamentally opposed.

ok. well if you are fundamentally opposed then I will drop it. I am not going to force anyone. I would like to try to talk people into it. BUT I do want to do it at some point in a mafia game. I think it would 1. be good for town in that game and 2. provide evidence for the future.

If you truly support the notion you would first claim yourself.

I would, but only if we had a town consensus. Me claiming all by my lonesome like you did way back when is not in anyway beneficial and will likely only result in me getting lynched.

I consent to you claiming, and I represent Town.

[pingpongsam]

WW claimed VT and has not been wagoned yet.

[yuma]

If I were a Town PR forced to claim I would claim VT. Thus, I am fundamentally opposed.

ok. well if you are fundamentally opposed then I will drop it. I am not going to force anyone. I would like to try to talk people into it. BUT I do want to do it at some point in a mafia game. I think it would 1. be good for town in that game and 2. provide evidence for the future.

I doubt the evidence would be that strong.  Otherwise every mafia game ever would just be a mass claim D1 and then seeing if people stick with their roles.

But what I am saying is that we haven't ever really tried it. At least not on this site as far as I can tell. The consensus has always been that it is bad, but based off assumptions rather than empirical evidence to back that up.

[pingpongsam]

So you want us to create empirical evidence that it is, in fact, a bad idea...

[yuma]

Didn't we try the massclaim Day 1 thing recently?

Also, doesn't Yuma propose this like every game?

If f.ds did then I obviously wasnt' around for it. I poked around some of those games, but don't really have a great grasp of them, if that happened send me a link cause I want to see it.

And no. I am/was generally opposed to any plan of any sort. You are thinking of ashersky. But time changes people!

[yuma]

So you want us to create empirical evidence that it is, in fact, a bad idea...

No I want to create empirical evidence that is is, in fact, a bad idea or a good idea depending upon the result! I predict it will have a good result. You predict a bad result. Only one way to find out!

[yuma]

If I were a Town PR forced to claim I would claim VT. Thus, I am fundamentally opposed.

ok. well if you are fundamentally opposed then I will drop it. I am not going to force anyone. I would like to try to talk people into it. BUT I do want to do it at some point in a mafia game. I think it would 1. be good for town in that game and 2. provide evidence for the future.

If you truly support the notion you would first claim yourself.

I would, but only if we had a town consensus. Me claiming all by my lonesome like you did way back when is not in anyway beneficial and will likely only result in me getting lynched.

I consent to you claiming, and I represent Town.

1 down. 10 to go.

[pingpongsam]

Generally, speaking, I like to have an assumption that something is a good idea before I embark upon an effort to obtain empirical evidence that it was, in fact, a good idea. Starting off on the assumption that an idea is bad is not a good reason to try and prove it so.

[yuma]

Generally, speaking, I like to have an assumption that something is a good idea before I embark upon an effort to obtain empirical evidence that it was, in fact, a good idea. Starting off on the assumption that an idea is bad is not a good reason to try and prove it so.

I agree. Except I think it is a good idea. So I was trying to persuade you that it was a good idea. But you disagreed, which is fine, so I am not going to try to persuade you further unless you want me to and leave it there.

[Witherweaver]

Didn't we try the massclaim Day 1 thing recently?

Also, doesn't Yuma propose this like every game?

If f.ds did then I obviously wasnt' around for it. I poked around some of those games, but don't really have a great grasp of them, if that happened send me a link cause I want to see it.

And no. I am/was generally opposed to any plan of any sort. You are thinking of ashersky. But time changes people!

Hmm.. for some reason this scenario feels very, very familiar. 

[Witherweaver]

Generally, speaking, I like to have an assumption that something is a good idea before I embark upon an effort to obtain empirical evidence that it was, in fact, a good idea. Starting off on the assumption that an idea is bad is not a good reason to try and prove it so.

Vote: PPS

Obviously hasn't had time to come up with a proper fake claim.

[pingpongsam]

Voting for PPS is the only reasonable course of action at this point.

[Witherweaver]

Voting for PPS is the only reasonable course of action at this point.

I agree.

Also, we can execute Yuma's plan by just putting everyone to L-1, where they would naturally claim.  Or if Ichi was playing, to L-(L-1).

[faust]

My plan is, if there are masons, claim right away.  There are good reasons for this.

I agree. Any other roles that should claim right away?

Mafia Goon
Mafia Strongman
Mafia Roleblocker

Townslip: forgot Mafia Godfather

[faust]

Hi everyone by the way. Hi yuma in particular, welcome back. It's good to have you back to stop all this silly strechted out RVS.

I like ashersky's plan.

Vote: Jimmmmm

[Witherweaver]

My plan is, if there are masons, claim right away.  There are good reasons for this.

I agree. Any other roles that should claim right away?

Mafia Goon
Mafia Strongman
Mafia Roleblocker

Townslip: forgot Mafia Godfather

Hooray!  Now I'm an IC.

[faust]

Also PPS is not getting lynched today.

[Witherweaver]

Also PPS is not getting lynched today.

Not with that attitude.

[faust]

This is how it works. If you're scum you lie and claim VT. If you're VT you tell the truth and claim VT. If you are a Town PR you hide yourself by claiming VT.

So we all massclaim VT and that is so informative and helpful that Town just wins the game D1.

If you are a town PR why would you hide as claiming VT? that would be silly.

And if all the mafia claimed VT that would be great! We would just lynch VTs and the pool size would be 3 mafia in 9 instead of 3 mafia in 12! Awesome!

Scumslip.

The only people who could have an assumption regarding PR count at this time are scum.

vote: yuma

This is a bad post. chairs is my backup lynch choice.

[Witherweaver]

This is how it works. If you're scum you lie and claim VT. If you're VT you tell the truth and claim VT. If you are a Town PR you hide yourself by claiming VT.

So we all massclaim VT and that is so informative and helpful that Town just wins the game D1.

If you are a town PR why would you hide as claiming VT? that would be silly.

And if all the mafia claimed VT that would be great! We would just lynch VTs and the pool size would be 3 mafia in 9 instead of 3 mafia in 12! Awesome!

Scumslip.

The only people who could have an assumption regarding PR count at this time are scum.

vote: yuma

This is a bad post. chairs is my backup lynch choice.

Backup after... Jimmmmm?

[faust]

Backup after... Jimmmmm?

Obviously.

[chairs]

No it isn't. I am not counting PRs. I am counting mafia, which everyone knows...

How do you know that it becomes 3 mafia out of 9 VTs?

MY POINT EXACTLY.

PPE (everything after this post).

[chairs]

Agreed, WW is IC.

I am Town and believe a massclaim is not beneficial, but I could see having the UB claim and here's why - the UB is worth trading 1-for-1 in a counterclaim scenario where we lynch the real UB. We don't have any guarantee Town has a PR, but if Town does have a PR, Town could have a Doctor. The Doctor could then (in a non-counterclaim scenario) doctor the UB, giving us a virtual IC who doesn't die except to Mafia Strongman. If the Mafia do kill the UB N1 then worst-case scenario we have at least one guaranteed-Town voice for D1, which is awfully nice.

[pingpongsam]

No one is IC. If there were an IC it was to be announced at the beginning of D1.

[Awaclus]

Experiments are nice and all, but I'd rather just win.

[gkrieg13]

I think my question got overlooked.  Why is it beneficial for masons to claim D1?

[pingpongsam]

I think my question got overlooked.  Why is it beneficial for masons to claim D1?

If 2 masons claim AND no one else claims mason we can kill one and IC the other.

[ashersky]

I think my question got overlooked.  Why is it beneficial for masons to claim D1?

If 2 masons claim AND no one else claims mason we can kill one and IC the other.

Uh no.

[yuma]

at what point does silly-RVS posts end these days, especially ones that are answers to serious questions...?

[pingpongsam]

at what point does silly-RVS posts end these days, especially ones that are answers to serious questions...?

After D1.

[yuma]

Experiments are nice and all, but I'd rather just win.

so would I. And I think mass claiming has a good chance of doing that. It might hurt us, I'll be the first to admit, but I think the chance of it helping is greater and the amount it would help us is greater than the amount it would hurt us.

Getting information for future games is a fringe benefit, but my argument is that everyone says that mass claiming is bad without having any concrete examples to show that it actually was. It is all just theoretical at this point.

If I thought mass claiming would truly be awful i woudln't suggest it just for experiment's sake.

[Awaclus]

It might be good in a setup where it's harder to fake claim. In this setup, I don't really see the benefit.

[Witherweaver]

Also...for old time's sake...

I have a plan!

If it involves mass claiming from the very beginning I am all for it.

I ran a couple of simulations and I think in general mass claiming will be beneficial for town.

I dont' think it will be game breaking or setup solving (obviously the guy who designed this setup designed it too well for that) but it does put mafia in an awkward position from the beginning and forces them to commit to a role early on.

There are obviously risks, but I think in generally they are small and are probably worth it for the payback.

So, like, how do you put mass claiming in simulations?  Or what is the result that leads to thinking its beneficial?

[gkrieg13]

I think my question got overlooked.  Why is it beneficial for masons to claim D1?

If 2 masons claim AND no one else claims mason we can kill one and IC the other.

That sounds like a good enough reason.  haha

[Witherweaver]

Masonry is a dangerous profession on F.DS.

[yuma]

Also...for old time's sake...

I have a plan!

If it involves mass claiming from the very beginning I am all for it.

I ran a couple of simulations and I think in general mass claiming will be beneficial for town.

I dont' think it will be game breaking or setup solving (obviously the guy who designed this setup designed it too well for that) but it does put mafia in an awkward position from the beginning and forces them to commit to a role early on.

There are obviously risks, but I think in generally they are small and are probably worth it for the payback.

So, like, how do you put mass claiming in simulations?  Or what is the result that leads to thinking its beneficial?

Well all I did was pull up random.org and ran 3 example setups that SS could have hypothetically rolled and then looked at what would happen, how town would react and what I anticipated mafia would fake claim in those given setups.

The main takeaways were that there were a handful of roles that would give pretty much IC status: UB, Masons, semi-IC status--meaning they are harder to fake (1-shot Roleblocker for example) and that it can create two separate pools from which we can look for mafia (people claiming VT and people claiming a role) that would sometimes, but allows us to narrow the confines from which we are looking mafia from 3 out of 12 to 2 out 7 or 1 out of 3.

We can run a couple of example setups together as a town if we want. But I kinda feel like at this point enough people aren't going to jump on board and my convincing skills aren't going to be enough to convince them.

[faust]

at what point does silly-RVS posts end these days, especially ones that are answers to serious questions...?

The day you start talking about something other than theory.

[faust]

Agreed, WW is IC.

I am Town and believe a massclaim is not beneficial, but I could see having the UB claim and here's why - the UB is worth trading 1-for-1 in a counterclaim scenario where we lynch the real UB. We don't have any guarantee Town has a PR, but if Town does have a PR, Town could have a Doctor. The Doctor could then (in a non-counterclaim scenario) doctor the UB, giving us a virtual IC who doesn't die except to Mafia Strongman. If the Mafia do kill the UB N1 then worst-case scenario we have at least one guaranteed-Town voice for D1, which is awfully nice.

FTFY

[Witherweaver]

Also...for old time's sake...

I have a plan!

If it involves mass claiming from the very beginning I am all for it.

I ran a couple of simulations and I think in general mass claiming will be beneficial for town.

I dont' think it will be game breaking or setup solving (obviously the guy who designed this setup designed it too well for that) but it does put mafia in an awkward position from the beginning and forces them to commit to a role early on.

There are obviously risks, but I think in generally they are small and are probably worth it for the payback.

So, like, how do you put mass claiming in simulations?  Or what is the result that leads to thinking its beneficial?

Well all I did was pull up random.org and ran 3 example setups that SS could have hypothetically rolled and then looked at what would happen, how town would react and what I anticipated mafia would fake claim in those given setups.

The main takeaways were that there were a handful of roles that would give pretty much IC status: UB, Masons, semi-IC status--meaning they are harder to fake (1-shot Roleblocker for example) and that it can create two separate pools from which we can look for mafia (people claiming VT and people claiming a role) that would sometimes, but allows us to narrow the confines from which we are looking mafia from 3 out of 12 to 2 out 7 or 1 out of 3.

We can run a couple of example setups together as a town if we want. But I kinda feel like at this point enough people aren't going to jump on board and my convincing skills aren't going to be enough to convince them.

Hey I like this; let's do a Shahrazad.  If your faction wins, we massclaim in the real game.  If not, we don't.

That would be an awesome Day 1.

[yuma]

unvote

I am pretty sure chairs is town.

Let me see if I can explain cause I lost myself a couple of times in trying to get there.

So chairs accused me here of a scumslip:

This is how it works. If you're scum you lie and claim VT. If you're VT you tell the truth and claim VT. If you are a Town PR you hide yourself by claiming VT.

So we all massclaim VT and that is so informative and helpful that Town just wins the game D1.

If you are a town PR why would you hide as claiming VT? that would be silly.

And if all the mafia claimed VT that would be great! We would just lynch VTs and the pool size would be 3 mafia in 9 instead of 3 mafia in 12! Awesome!

Scumslip.

The only people who could have an assumption regarding PR count at this time are scum.

vote: yuma

Which is wasn't because I was responding to a hypothetical from PPS:

This is how it works. If you're scum you lie and claim VT. If you're VT you tell the truth and claim VT. If you are a Town PR you hide yourself by claiming VT.

So we all massclaim VT and that is so informative and helpful that Town just wins the game D1.

If you are a town PR why would you hide as claiming VT? that would be silly.

And if all the mafia claimed VT that would be great! We would just lynch VTs and the pool size would be 3 mafia in 9 instead of 3 mafia in 12! Awesome!

in which I did bad math and reduced the pool size to 9 when it really should have stayed at 12 if everyone had claimed VT (we would be in the same boat that we are now.

However, chairs accused me later (well Awalcus did, it but chairs backed it up) of asking how I knew how many PRs there were, which would be a legitimate question if mafia were capable of knowing how many PRs there are.

Except mafia can't know how many PRs there are. All mafia can know if how many Ts were rolled, except that they don't even know that:

Scum Roles (In addition to the Godfather)
TTTTTT*** = Goon x2
TTTTT*** = Goon x2
TTTT = 1-Shot Strongman; Roleblocker
TTT = 1-Shot Strongman; Roleblocker
TT = Strongman; Roleblocker
T = Strongman; Roleblocker
0 Ts = Strongman; Roleblocker; 1-Shot Bulletproof****

There is only one setup wherein mafia knows how many Ts were rolled, setup 0T. All the others have replicates TTTTTT is the same for mafia as TTTTT. But even further, they don't know how many PRs were given out because of the inconsistent manner in which non-T roles are assigned to PRs. Meaning that some non-T roles give 1 PR per role (D, DD results in Doc, 1-shot Doc+Doc) but others give out in a different manner where a double role still just gives out 1 PR (V=1-shot Vig, VV=Vigilante).

So even if mafia knows how many Ts were rolled they can only guess at how many PRs there are.

For example, if we rolled TTT and the other roles were VVD then we would have 1 Vg, 1 doc and UB (three PRs leaving 6 VTs) but if we had rolled BBD then we would have 1 Roleblocker, 1-Shot Roleblocker, 1 Doc and UB (four PRs leaving 5 VTs).



All of this is to say that chairs found me scummy for something that scum could not be scummy for, therefore I think that chairs is likely to be town because he did not realize that scum did not have the ability to have such knowledge. Something I think any good scum QT would have discussed and realized that they did not know how many PRs there are

Now this doesn't make chairs an IC. He could have just not participated or had such a discussion in his QT or he could just be faking it. But I think both of those scenarios are a bit less likely.

So I am leaning pretty strong town on chairs.

back to vote: PPS

PPE: three

[yuma]

and I am not so sure about Awalacus as he did the same thing as chairs, but more on a follow up level...

[Witherweaver]

and I am not so sure about Awalacus as he did the same thing as chairs, but more on a follow up level...

Good enough for me.

Vote: Awaclus

I forgot I promised myself I'd tunnel him anyway.

[Hydrad]

here for now! be back later though for more.

my opinion is masons and UB claim? or something like that. I don't know if we gain much by having cops and stuff claim. maybe vigs?

I dunno. Full massclaim sounds scary but a smallish one I'm ok with.

[faust]

Well... I had a lot of the same thoughts about chairs' post, but came to different conclusions.

For town!chairs to see that as a scumslip, he would have to believe that scum knows how many PRs are out there and that you messed up big time. I don't think town!chairs believes that.

For scum!chairs, it's an easy argument to make, even if he knows it's wrong, he's participating and doesn't have to make any real cases.

PPE 3

[Witherweaver]

here for now! be back later though for more.

my opinion is masons and UB claim? or something like that. I don't know if we gain much by having cops and stuff claim. maybe vigs?

I dunno. Full massclaim sounds scary but a smallish one I'm ok with.

Could not be less committal to a stance if you tried.

[gkrieg13]

here for now! be back later though for more.

my opinion is masons and UB claim? or something like that. I don't know if we gain much by having cops and stuff claim. maybe vigs?

I dunno. Full massclaim sounds scary but a smallish one I'm ok with.

Why have UB claim?  Wouldn't he just be killed the next night and be made useless?

PPE 3

[yuma]

and I am not so sure about Awalacus as he did the same thing as chairs, but more on a follow up level...

Good enough for me.

Vote: Awaclus

I forgot I promised myself I'd tunnel him anyway.

hmmm... not quite what I meant. I feel like has he had a similar thought to chairs it makes me lean more town on him, but not as much as on chairs.

[Twistedarcher]

vote: pps already had two votes that made me say "huh?" and nonsensical pps is scum pps from my experience.

[Hydrad]

here for now! be back later though for more.

my opinion is masons and UB claim? or something like that. I don't know if we gain much by having cops and stuff claim. maybe vigs?

I dunno. Full massclaim sounds scary but a smallish one I'm ok with.

Why have UB claim?  Wouldn't he just be killed the next night and be made useless?

PPE 3

i feel like UB will generally become like an IC if he claims. which is pretty good I think?

[yuma]

Hey I like this; let's do a Shahrazad.  If your faction wins, we massclaim in the real game.  If not, we don't.

That would be an awesome Day 1.

I don't know what that means... i looked it up on google and it took me to a magic: the gathering reference, which I know nothing about.

[Twistedarcher]

agree that masons should claim. strongly disagree we should kill one off though, come on now

[faust]

and I am not so sure about Awalacus as he did the same thing as chairs, but more on a follow up level...

Pretty sure Awaclus posted that before he got to read chairs' post.

Anyway Awaclus is townie. He doesn't have that forced meta replication going on he tends to perform as scum.

PPE 7 you guys are fast.

[Twistedarcher]

UB claiming seems good too. IC is good and it won't get counterclaimed D1.

[Witherweaver]

Hey I like this; let's do a Shahrazad.  If your faction wins, we massclaim in the real game.  If not, we don't.

That would be an awesome Day 1.

I don't know what that means... i looked it up on google and it took me to a magic: the gathering reference, which I know nothing about.

You stop the current game and play  a game within a subgame.  Subgame has some stakes relevant to the supergame. 

What I'm saying is, we roll a new version of this setup and assign roles and all play through a version of the game.  If you're on the winning team, we'll follow your plan.  If not, we don't.

[yuma]

here for now! be back later though for more.

my opinion is masons and UB claim? or something like that. I don't know if we gain much by having cops and stuff claim. maybe vigs?

I dunno. Full massclaim sounds scary but a smallish one I'm ok with.

I feel that UB should only claim if we do a full mass claim. It would be beneficial there as he likely wouldn't be the only target that mafia might try to hit, lots of WIFOM there and would still have the IC status.

[Witherweaver]

and I am not so sure about Awalacus as he did the same thing as chairs, but more on a follow up level...

Pretty sure Awaclus posted that before he got to read chairs' post.

Anyway Awaclus is townie. He doesn't have that forced meta replication going on he tends to perform as scum.

PPE 7 you guys are fast.

He's posted like twice!

[Witherweaver]

Faust has an awfully lot of strong alignment reads for 3 hours into the game.

[yuma]

You stop the current game and play  a game within a subgame.  Subgame has some stakes relevant to the supergame. 

What I'm saying is, we roll a new version of this setup and assign roles and all play through a version of the game.  If you're on the winning team, we'll follow your plan.  If not, we don't.

head hurts... sounds like a charlie Kaufman movie

[Witherweaver]

You stop the current game and play  a game within a subgame.  Subgame has some stakes relevant to the supergame. 

What I'm saying is, we roll a new version of this setup and assign roles and all play through a version of the game.  If you're on the winning team, we'll follow your plan.  If not, we don't.

head hurts... sounds like a charlie Kaufman movie

I guess we'd need Silver to mod the subgame for us, but I'm sure he'd be .... game.

[Twistedarcher]

here for now! be back later though for more.

my opinion is masons and UB claim? or something like that. I don't know if we gain much by having cops and stuff claim. maybe vigs?

I dunno. Full massclaim sounds scary but a smallish one I'm ok with.

I feel that UB should only claim if we do a full mass claim. It would be beneficial there as he likely wouldn't be the only target that mafia might try to hit, lots of WIFOM there and would still have the IC status.

I'd rather have scum shoot the UB than shoot a cop. Plus if there's a doctor just the UB claiming is very very good.

[faust]

Faust has an awfully lot of strong alignment reads for 3 hours into the game.

Well, what can I say? I'm good.

[faust]

Policy vote: yuma for bringing up massclaiming and having all players engage in a discussion where they unwillingly drop hints about their roles.

[yuma]

Also one more reason that I like claiming... cause I keep coming up with more...

If mafia decide to claim a PR then they run into the Robz problem of claiming a PR early, but some how mysteriously not dying the longer the game goes on. Which generally means that a mafia should claim VT early and not worry about that, but if we just lynch out of the VT pool then we have a higher success rate.

It puts a catch-22 on mafia, which I quite like!

[yuma]

Policy vote: yuma for bringing up massclaiming and having all players engage in a discussion where they unwillingly drop hints about their roles.

that is their problem... not mine. People should be smart enough to not do that. But really in the end if we mass claim, it doesn't matter!

[faust]

Vote: TA

[Witherweaver]

Policy vote: yuma for bringing up massclaiming and having all players engage in a discussion where they unwillingly drop hints about their roles.

Right, because scum always rolefishes.

[Twistedarcher]

Policy vote: yuma for bringing up massclaiming and having all players engage in a discussion where they unwillingly drop hints about their roles.

that's on the other players, not on yuma. and bringing up that people are dropping hints is even worse than what yuma did.

i'm pro massclaim, but it's probably more from the viewpoint of i want to see what happens and its impact on the game than i'm 100% convinced it will happen.

[faust]

Policy vote: yuma for bringing up massclaiming and having all players engage in a discussion where they unwillingly drop hints about their roles.

that is their problem... not mine. People should be smart enough to not do that. But really in the end if we mass claim, it doesn't matter!

You know as well as me that people are not smart enough to do that.

PPS has stated he is unwilling to claim, so has Awaclus. This should end the discussion, since a massclaim only works if everyone participates. If anyone else thinks some specific role should claim, they either are that role and go ahead and claim or they shut up.

[Witherweaver]

Also one more reason that I like claiming... cause I keep coming up with more...

If mafia decide to claim a PR then they run into the Robz problem of claiming a PR early, but some how mysteriously not dying the longer the game goes on. Which generally means that a mafia should claim VT early and not worry about that, but if we just lynch out of the VT pool then we have a higher success rate.

It puts a catch-22 on mafia, which I quite like!

So, like, would you be pro-massclaim in every open setup?

[faust]

Policy vote: yuma for bringing up massclaiming and having all players engage in a discussion where they unwillingly drop hints about their roles.

Right, because scum always rolefishes.

That's why it was a policy vote.

[Twistedarcher]

Policy vote: yuma for bringing up massclaiming and having all players engage in a discussion where they unwillingly drop hints about their roles.

that is their problem... not mine. People should be smart enough to not do that. But really in the end if we mass claim, it doesn't matter!

You know as well as me that people are not smart enough to do that.

PPS has stated he is unwilling to claim, so has Awaclus. This should end the discussion, since a massclaim only works if everyone participates. If anyone else thinks some specific role should claim, they either are that role and go ahead and claim or they shut up.

massclaim doesn't need 100% approval, if it happens people participate, even if they're in the minority.

vote: massclaim

[faust]

Policy vote: yuma for bringing up massclaiming and having all players engage in a discussion where they unwillingly drop hints about their roles.

that is their problem... not mine. People should be smart enough to not do that. But really in the end if we mass claim, it doesn't matter!

You know as well as me that people are not smart enough to do that.

PPS has stated he is unwilling to claim, so has Awaclus. This should end the discussion, since a massclaim only works if everyone participates. If anyone else thinks some specific role should claim, they either are that role and go ahead and claim or they shut up.

massclaim doesn't need 100% approval, if it happens people participate, even if they're in the minority.

vote: massclaim

False.

[Twistedarcher]

Policy vote: yuma for bringing up massclaiming and having all players engage in a discussion where they unwillingly drop hints about their roles.

that's on the other players, not on yuma. and bringing up that people are dropping hints is even worse than what yuma did.

i'm pro massclaim, but it's probably more from the viewpoint of i want to see what happens and its impact on the game than i'm 100% convinced it will happenhelp

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Inceptiongame a la Shahrazad

[ashersky]

Well, we can lynch non-claimants.  That always works out well.

[Twistedarcher]

Policy vote: yuma for bringing up massclaiming and having all players engage in a discussion where they unwillingly drop hints about their roles.

that is their problem... not mine. People should be smart enough to not do that. But really in the end if we mass claim, it doesn't matter!

You know as well as me that people are not smart enough to do that.

PPS has stated he is unwilling to claim, so has Awaclus. This should end the discussion, since a massclaim only works if everyone participates. If anyone else thinks some specific role should claim, they either are that role and go ahead and claim or they shut up.

massclaim doesn't need 100% approval, if it happens people participate, even if they're in the minority.

vote: massclaim

False.

point me to an instance of massclaim happening but a player flat out refusing to participate. if the majority wants it to happen and a player doesn't participate, they should and would be lynched, and so no player would refuse to participate.

[ashersky]

Vote: Inceptiongame a la Shahrazad

It'd be cool, but we'd deadline out here and scum could just kill us off each night.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Inceptiongame a la Shahrazad

It'd be cool, but we'd deadline out here and scum could just kill us off each night.

It would be Blitz Mafia, obv.

[Twistedarcher]

But you're coming up with argument against massclaim that aren't real without addressing the actual validity of the massclaim itself

[yuma]

Also one more reason that I like claiming... cause I keep coming up with more...

If mafia decide to claim a PR then they run into the Robz problem of claiming a PR early, but some how mysteriously not dying the longer the game goes on. Which generally means that a mafia should claim VT early and not worry about that, but if we just lynch out of the VT pool then we have a higher success rate.

It puts a catch-22 on mafia, which I quite like!

So, like, would you be pro-massclaim in every open setup?

No. And a lot of that would depend on how this one went. It would all be circumstantial. There are going to be setups that favor it, there will be setups that don't. I think this one does for a variety of reasons.

In thinking back there were situations were people claimed early (not mass claim, but individual claims) and it helped. ash claimed 1-shot doc in that ninja game I think where chairs went crazy with the vig. I feel like there was one or two claims in the harry potter game that helped narrow the pool down. So those probably were good setups to claim in. Others will be ones that are certainly not--the Pick your poison or the one that faust ran with giving numbers to get slots for choosing prs for example.

[ashersky]

But you're coming up with argument against massclaim that aren't real without addressing the actual validity of the massclaim itself

He's also doing the thing he complained about happening.

[yuma]

alright, I'll stop talking about claiming unless there is another post about it that prompts me to talk about it. Because I do agree taht claiming needs to be at least 80% of players on board, 100% is preferrable and it is apparent that isnt' going to happen.

is PPS still voting himself?

[ashersky]

Yep.

[ashersky]

I'll join him.  He's pulling an ash.

vote: pps

[yuma]

Yep.

thanks for checking. I am lazy. You should vote for him too!

[yuma]

ha!

[Awaclus]

Policy vote: yuma for bringing up massclaiming and having all players engage in a discussion where they unwillingly drop hints about their roles.

that is their problem... not mine. People should be smart enough to not do that. But really in the end if we mass claim, it doesn't matter!

You know as well as me that people are not smart enough to do that.

PPS has stated he is unwilling to claim, so has Awaclus. This should end the discussion, since a massclaim only works if everyone participates. If anyone else thinks some specific role should claim, they either are that role and go ahead and claim or they shut up.

I wouldn't read that much into my posts, I just don't want a massclaim to happen at all regardless of if I want to participate in it or not.

[faust]

Policy vote: yuma for bringing up massclaiming and having all players engage in a discussion where they unwillingly drop hints about their roles.

that is their problem... not mine. People should be smart enough to not do that. But really in the end if we mass claim, it doesn't matter!

You know as well as me that people are not smart enough to do that.

PPS has stated he is unwilling to claim, so has Awaclus. This should end the discussion, since a massclaim only works if everyone participates. If anyone else thinks some specific role should claim, they either are that role and go ahead and claim or they shut up.

massclaim doesn't need 100% approval, if it happens people participate, even if they're in the minority.

vote: massclaim

False.

point me to an instance of massclaim happening but a player flat out refusing to participate. if the majority wants it to happen and a player doesn't participate, they should and would be lynched, and so no player would refuse to participate.

Not possible because ongoing games.

[faust]

But you're coming up with argument against massclaim that aren't real without addressing the actual validity of the massclaim itself

I know. Smart, right?

[faust]

Policy vote: yuma for bringing up massclaiming and having all players engage in a discussion where they unwillingly drop hints about their roles.

that is their problem... not mine. People should be smart enough to not do that. But really in the end if we mass claim, it doesn't matter!

You know as well as me that people are not smart enough to do that.

PPS has stated he is unwilling to claim, so has Awaclus. This should end the discussion, since a massclaim only works if everyone participates. If anyone else thinks some specific role should claim, they either are that role and go ahead and claim or they shut up.

I wouldn't read that much into my posts, I just don't want a massclaim to happen at all regardless of if I want to participate in it or not.

But I have to read much into your posts. They're so short and sparse!

[faust]

Didn't you listen? No lynching PPS today.

[yuma]

If he doesn't want to be lynched he should stop voting for himself.

[Witherweaver]

If he doesn't want to be lynched he should stop voting for himself.

Who should he vote for?

[Twistedarcher]

Didn't you listen? No lynching PPS today.

why not?

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Faust because it's cool.

[yuma]

If he doesn't want to be lynched he should stop voting for himself.

Who should he vote for?

Dunno. He doesn't have to vote for anyone atm.

[faust]

If he doesn't want to be lynched he should stop voting for himself.

Well, true. But that's no excuse for you voting for him. Or anyone. I don't even know why ashersky thinks PPS is scummy.

[faust]

Didn't you listen? No lynching PPS today.

why not?

Because I say so.

[pingpongsam]

Still nothing from Jimmmm or Umbrage. Interesting we have a pretty full wagon on PPS with zero input from 2 players.

[yuma]

If he doesn't want to be lynched he should stop voting for himself.

Well, true. But that's no excuse for you voting for him. Or anyone. I don't even know why ashersky thinks PPS is scummy.

Sure it is. I always vote for people that vote for themselves. Little could be more anti-town. I would vote an IC that was voting themselves.

[faust]

If he doesn't want to be lynched he should stop voting for himself.

Well, true. But that's no excuse for you voting for him. Or anyone. I don't even know why ashersky thinks PPS is scummy.

Sure it is. I always vote for people that vote for themselves. Little could be more anti-town. I would vote an IC that was voting themselves.

Voting an IC is more anti-town than voting yourself, you know that, right? Anyway that's cheap. Tell me why you think PPS is scum, if you do.

[pingpongsam]

What games has Twisted played with me where I was scum? What makes Twisted think a nonsensical-pps is scum? Show me non-sensical scum!pps. There is plenty of perfectly sensible scum!pps, though.

[pingpongsam]

Pretty sure I am L-2.

[yuma]

If he doesn't want to be lynched he should stop voting for himself.

Well, true. But that's no excuse for you voting for him. Or anyone. I don't even know why ashersky thinks PPS is scummy.

Sure it is. I always vote for people that vote for themselves. Little could be more anti-town. I would vote an IC that was voting themselves.

Voting an IC is more anti-town than voting yourself, you know that, right? Anyway that's cheap. Tell me why you think PPS is scum, if you do.

I disagree.

I don't know if I think he is scum yet, don't really have an opinion except that he appears to be playing some type of rope-a-dope thing that probably won't work, but that he shouldn't be voting himself. O used to do this. So did pops. It never really accomplished much of anything. One time Galz got lynched for it--but that was ok he was a SK.

[yuma]

Pretty sure I am L-2.

then unvote and you will be at L-4

[Witherweaver]

Pretty sure I am L-2.

I'm not an expert, but I think if you unvoted yourself you'd be less closer to being lynched.

[Twistedarcher]

Didn't you listen? No lynching PPS today.

why not?

Because I say so.

Oh no! I'm convinced now!

[Twistedarcher]

What games has Twisted played with me where I was scum? What makes Twisted think a nonsensical-pps is scum? Show me non-sensical scum!pps. There is plenty of perfectly sensible scum!pps, though.

diffusion of power

[pingpongsam]

The most town thing I can do is vote for the most obvious scum, yes? Majority agrees that I am the most obvious scum by their votes, yes? Thus, the majority agrees I am doing the most town thing possible right now.

I brought up L-2 only to prevent a derp-hammer. I may only be L-3 but I need mod confirmation.

[Witherweaver]

On second thought,

Vote: PPS

It's never to early to recklessly put someone to L-1.

[pingpongsam]

What games has Twisted played with me where I was scum? What makes Twisted think a nonsensical-pps is scum? Show me non-sensical scum!pps. There is plenty of perfectly sensible scum!pps, though.

diffusion of power

I remember the game by that name and possibly being scum but not the nonsense gambit I made out for. Was that the one where egorK made it out a few days before meeting his inevitable end?

[faust]

What games has Twisted played with me where I was scum? What makes Twisted think a nonsensical-pps is scum? Show me non-sensical scum!pps. There is plenty of perfectly sensible scum!pps, though.

diffusion of power

I don't remember PPS being nonsensical in diffusion of power. You were being nonsensical there...

[pingpongsam]

So, lynching me means that either you hit scum which is fantastic for town (historically a D1 scum hit is a Town game win) or that the wagon built on me is informative enough that should I flip town there's a good estimate of where scum lay on the wagon.

Any analysis on that second possibility? I have some...

[Witherweaver]

So, lynching me means that either you hit scum which is fantastic for town (historically a D1 scum hit is a Town game win) or that the wagon built on me is informative enough that should I flip town there's a good estimate of where scum lay on the wagon.

Any analysis on that second possibility? I have some...

Well we all know early wagons are on town, and therefore you're town, so let's skip ahead and see who on your wagon is scum.

[pingpongsam]

reads:

scum - twisted, hydrad, ashersky (in that order)

null - weaver, yuma, krieg, awacky (no particular order)

town - faust, chairs (town is either major town or major scum, I say that because I sense his ardent stance against lynching me today as possibly being a signal to his partners to lynch asap and maybe get some confirmation bias off of me for the late game)

Who knows, they haven't posted at all, what happened to LALL? - Jimmmmm, Umbrage

My reads are largely about how the wagon progressed on me which I clearly intentionally started to get said reads which is intrinsically not RVS and thus relatively pro-town.

[Witherweaver]

reads:

scum - twisted, hydrad, ashersky (in that order)

null - weaver, yuma, krieg, awacky (no particular order)

town - faust, chairs (town is either major town or major scum, I say that because I sense his ardent stance against lynching me today as possibly being a signal to his partners to lynch asap and maybe get some confirmation bias off of me for the late game)

Who knows, they haven't posted at all, what happened to LALL? - Jimmmmm, Umbrage

My reads are largely about how the wagon progressed on me which I clearly intentionally started to get said reads which is intrinsically not RVS and thus relatively pro-town.

And definitely could not have been a premeditated scum maneuver to garnish town points.

[Witherweaver]

That's actually pretty good, though.  I think Yuma's position is scummy, however.  Given that his argument is pure policy.

[Twistedarcher]

we don't LALL five hours into a game

[pingpongsam]

reads:

scum - twisted, hydrad, ashersky (in that order)

null - weaver, yuma, krieg, awacky (no particular order)

town - faust, chairs (town is either major town or major scum, I say that because I sense his ardent stance against lynching me today as possibly being a signal to his partners to lynch asap and maybe get some confirmation bias off of me for the late game)

Who knows, they haven't posted at all, what happened to LALL? - Jimmmmm, Umbrage

My reads are largely about how the wagon progressed on me which I clearly intentionally started to get said reads which is intrinsically not RVS and thus relatively pro-town.

And definitely could not have been a premeditated scum maneuver to garnish town points.

You'll see in my QT that I've never found the cajones to try this as scum. Maybe one day when you're my PR scumpartner and you can underbus me for it.
Vote: TwistedArcher

[Witherweaver]

reads:

scum - twisted, hydrad, ashersky (in that order)

null - weaver, yuma, krieg, awacky (no particular order)

town - faust, chairs (town is either major town or major scum, I say that because I sense his ardent stance against lynching me today as possibly being a signal to his partners to lynch asap and maybe get some confirmation bias off of me for the late game)

Who knows, they haven't posted at all, what happened to LALL? - Jimmmmm, Umbrage

My reads are largely about how the wagon progressed on me which I clearly intentionally started to get said reads which is intrinsically not RVS and thus relatively pro-town.

And definitely could not have been a premeditated scum maneuver to garnish town points.

You'll see in my QT that I've never found the cajones to try this as scum. Maybe one day when you're my PR scumpartner and you can underbus me for it.
Vote: TwistedArcher

Hey, stop setting me up as your scum partner.

[pingpongsam]

Also, it should be noted that it is perfectly reasonable and pro-town for Town players to seek town points.

[ashersky]

WW lynch could be fun.

[Witherweaver]

WW lynch could be fun.

It never has been before.

[ashersky]

WW lynch could be fun.

It never has been before.

You've never been lynched, though.  We should try.

[Witherweaver]

WW lynch could be fun.

It never has been before.

You've never been lynched, though.  We should try.

That's not true, I've been lynched before.  It's just never been a productive thing.

[yuma]

That's actually pretty good, though.  I think Yuma's position is scummy, however.  Given that his argument is pure policy.

Why is that scummy? As opposed to townie? Or more likely neutral?

[yuma]

Vote: TwistedArcher

unvote

[Witherweaver]

That's actually pretty good, though.  I think Yuma's position is scummy, however.  Given that his argument is pure policy.

Why is that scummy? As opposed to townie? Or more likely neutral?

Eh, I feel like your sticking with your PPS vote is a little forced. 

[yuma]

That's actually pretty good, though.  I think Yuma's position is scummy, however.  Given that his argument is pure policy.

Why is that scummy? As opposed to townie? Or more likely neutral?

Eh, I feel like your sticking with your PPS vote is a little forced.

Isn't a policy vote by definition something that is forced? Does town do policy votes? Rhetorical question... of course they do. So what makes my policy vote scummy?

[Witherweaver]

That's actually pretty good, though.  I think Yuma's position is scummy, however.  Given that his argument is pure policy.

Why is that scummy? As opposed to townie? Or more likely neutral?

Eh, I feel like your sticking with your PPS vote is a little forced.

Isn't a policy vote by definition something that is forced? Does town do policy votes? Rhetorical question... of course they do. So what makes my policy vote scummy?

At some point town develops actual reads.

[Hydrad]

hmm I wanna go Vote: WW

but he seems townyish... so I'm changing my mind in the time that I wrote this sentence and am going with

Vote: Gkreig

hes not feeling super towny so that means hes scum. This game is easy.

[yuma]

At some point town develops actual reads.

I have reads, just not necessarily on PPS because he has been camouflaged in his self-voting (which is why I dislike it so much).

And it is like still day1 of day1.

And you still aren't answering my actual question. But I'll let it slide for now...

[Witherweaver]

At some point town develops actual reads.

I have reads, just not necessarily on PPS because he has been camouflaged in his self-voting (which is why I dislike it so much).

And it is like still day1 of day1.

And you still aren't answering my actual question. But I'll let it slide for now...

I answered your question the first time: it's a feeling for me.  Yes you could have done it as town or scum, no there isn't a good argument to convince anyone it was scum, it just felt that way to me. 

[Witherweaver]

Plus it's also one of those things that I think you would do as town and therefore you doing it is a little bit scummy.  I feel the same way about you proposing the massclaim, though I didn't bring it up before. 

[ashersky]

hmm I wanna go Vote: WW

but he seems townyish... so I'm changing my mind in the time that I wrote this sentence and am going with

Vote: Gkreig

hes not feeling super towny so that means hes scum. This game is easy.

Silly hydrad is often scum!hydrad.  Plus, bad vote.

vote: hydrad

[yuma]

You are right. You did answer. You just didn't answer the way I wanted you to, which is something that I am trying to shed--the constant hounding of people to answer the way I want to. Sorry I didn't quite lay off in time. Some habits are harder to break.

And you are absolutely right that policy voting is something that I would do as town and would totally replicate as mafia, and have replicated as mafia in the past before. But just because I could doesn't mean I am is the point I am trying to make.

[Witherweaver]

hmm I wanna go Vote: WW

but he seems townyish... so I'm changing my mind in the time that I wrote this sentence and am going with

Vote: Gkreig

hes not feeling super towny so that means hes scum. This game is easy.

Silly hydrad is often scum!hydrad.  Plus, bad vote.

vote: hydrad

I'll bit

Vote: Hydrad

[Witherweaver]

Bite

[gkrieg13]

Wow you guys sure post a lot.

I still see no serious answer to my question.  Why is it good for masons to claim D1? 

PPE 5

[Witherweaver]

You are right. You did answer. You just didn't answer the way I wanted you to, which is something that I am trying to shed--the constant hounding of people to answer the way I want to. Sorry I didn't quite lay off in time. Some habits are harder to break.

And you are absolutely right that policy voting is something that I would do as town and would totally replicate as mafia, and have replicated as mafia in the past before. But just because I could doesn't mean I am is the point I am trying to make.

Yeah.  But I also imagine putting myself in your shoes, just back to a Mafia game after a break with a bunch of older players that know meta pretty well.. and I roll Mafia, I might start thinking about what my known town meta looks like and maybe try a little harder to do those things.

[yuma]

haha... I can see that.

Except I am actively trying to shed my old meta in many, many ways (being confrontational, uberaggressive, posting a lot--I know I am posting a lot now, but that is because I am while I can, you will likely see a significant drop from me cause when i can't I won't be active at all--being super against plans and claiming... generally trying to even my keel out quite a bit more.

But disliking self voting is something that I just can't shake!

[Twistedarcher]

Wow you guys sure post a lot.

I still see no serious answer to my question.  Why is it good for masons to claim D1? 

PPE 5

Because while it's possible scum fakeclaims masons, I'd argue it's rare, and it's easy for them both to be caught out later if it's a fakeclaim. And two ICs is very good.

[Hydrad]

hmm I wanna go Vote: WW

but he seems townyish... so I'm changing my mind in the time that I wrote this sentence and am going with

Vote: Gkreig

hes not feeling super towny so that means hes scum. This game is easy.

Silly hydrad is often scum!hydrad.  Plus, bad vote.

vote: hydrad

Often!=is

so i'm town this time.

[Hydrad]

haha... I can see that.

Except I am actively trying to shed my old meta in many, many ways (being confrontational, uberaggressive, posting a lot--I know I am posting a lot now, but that is because I am while I can, you will likely see a significant drop from me cause when i can't I won't be active at all--being super against plans and claiming... generally trying to even my keel out quite a bit more.

But disliking self voting is something that I just can't shake!

town yuma imo!

although I don't think i've played many with yuma to know his meta.

still feels towny

[Hydrad]

also my gkrieg vote a serious vote and not jokey. in case people thought it was a RVS vote.

but right now I'm actually looking at ashersky. something feels out of place in this post.

hmm I wanna go Vote: WW

but he seems townyish... so I'm changing my mind in the time that I wrote this sentence and am going with

Vote: Gkreig

hes not feeling super towny so that means hes scum. This game is easy.

Silly hydrad is often scum!hydrad.  Plus, bad vote.

vote: hydrad

I don't know whats making me feel weird about it though. Just is giving me a bad feeling.

so asher is scummyish to me currently

[Witherweaver]

Lynching Hydrad feels good.

It always feels good, so take that as you will.  Anyway, no reason not to recklessly vote someone else up to L-1, so everyone jump on.

Notably, we forgot to force PPS to claim when he was at L-1 (if he ever really was).  Lost opportunities.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Sorry, guys.  Computer troubles.

I should be able to be on at more length tonight, and don't think I need to declare V/LA yet, as I think I can get on every day.

I may catch up on this in the next hour or so, or might not be back until late tonight.

I haven't read anything but see something about L-1. CAN WE PLEASE STOP IT WITH THESE HYPER-SHORT DAYS.  Early L-1 is good, but let's let days last until everyone has time to talk about things.

[Hydrad]

Sorry, guys.  Computer troubles.

I should be able to be on at more length tonight, and don't think I need to declare V/LA yet, as I think I can get on every day.

I may catch up on this in the next hour or so, or might not be back until late tonight.

I haven't read anything but see something about L-1. CAN WE PLEASE STOP IT WITH THESE HYPER-SHORT DAYS.  Early L-1 is good, but let's let days last until everyone has time to talk about things.

all you need to know is that scum is currently trying to build a wagon on the strongest player in the game (me) and that its a horrible wagon even if there's only 2 people on it who both may be town...

[Witherweaver]

Sorry, guys.  Computer troubles.

I should be able to be on at more length tonight, and don't think I need to declare V/LA yet, as I think I can get on every day.

I may catch up on this in the next hour or so, or might not be back until late tonight.

I haven't read anything but see something about L-1. CAN WE PLEASE STOP IT WITH THESE HYPER-SHORT DAYS.  Early L-1 is good, but let's let days last until everyone has time to talk about things.

Overprecaution is a scum tell!

[gkrieg13]

Wow you guys sure post a lot.

I still see no serious answer to my question.  Why is it good for masons to claim D1? 

PPE 5

Because while it's possible scum fakeclaims masons, I'd argue it's rare, and it's easy for them both to be caught out later if it's a fakeclaim. And two ICs is very good.

This makes sense.
I am a mason

[Witherweaver]

Sorry, guys.  Computer troubles.

I should be able to be on at more length tonight, and don't think I need to declare V/LA yet, as I think I can get on every day.

I may catch up on this in the next hour or so, or might not be back until late tonight.

I haven't read anything but see something about L-1. CAN WE PLEASE STOP IT WITH THESE HYPER-SHORT DAYS.  Early L-1 is good, but let's let days last until everyone has time to talk about things.

all you need to know is that scum is currently trying to build a wagon on the strongest player in the game (me) and that its a horrible wagon even if there's only 2 people on it who both may be town...

So now Ash is town?  I thought you were just feeling a disturbance in the force.

[Hydrad]

Sorry, guys.  Computer troubles.

I should be able to be on at more length tonight, and don't think I need to declare V/LA yet, as I think I can get on every day.

I may catch up on this in the next hour or so, or might not be back until late tonight.

I haven't read anything but see something about L-1. CAN WE PLEASE STOP IT WITH THESE HYPER-SHORT DAYS.  Early L-1 is good, but let's let days last until everyone has time to talk about things.

all you need to know is that scum is currently trying to build a wagon on the strongest player in the game (me) and that its a horrible wagon even if there's only 2 people on it who both may be town...

So now Ash is town?  I thought you were just feeling a disturbance in the force.

i still feel ash is scummy. but i feel you are town. But I also realize that my feeling on ash isn't that strong so he could still be town even if I think hes more likely town. So due to that theres a decent chance my wagon is all town. (even though you could also be scum) so i wanted to through in the chance that my wagon could be fully town since I didn't want to say it was scum driven when I don't have much to go on.

[Hydrad]

throw* instead of through...

probably more mistakes in there also.

[Hydrad]

Wow you guys sure post a lot.

I still see no serious answer to my question.  Why is it good for masons to claim D1? 

PPE 5

Because while it's possible scum fakeclaims masons, I'd argue it's rare, and it's easy for them both to be caught out later if it's a fakeclaim. And two ICs is very good.

This makes sense.
I am a mason

Vote: ashersky

[Witherweaver]

I'm predicting that Ash is town

[faust]

Wow you guys sure post a lot.

I still see no serious answer to my question.  Why is it good for masons to claim D1? 

PPE 5

Because while it's possible scum fakeclaims masons, I'd argue it's rare, and it's easy for them both to be caught out later if it's a fakeclaim. And two ICs is very good.

This makes sense.
I am a mason

It would be kinda nice to tell us who your partner is. Unless there's value in having only one partner claim... there might be, actually.

[Hydrad]

Wow you guys sure post a lot.

I still see no serious answer to my question.  Why is it good for masons to claim D1? 

PPE 5

Because while it's possible scum fakeclaims masons, I'd argue it's rare, and it's easy for them both to be caught out later if it's a fakeclaim. And two ICs is very good.

This makes sense.
I am a mason

It would be kinda nice to tell us who your partner is. Unless there's value in having only one partner claim... there might be, actually.

I guess i've never though of it like that. I can see slight benifits but I think 2 IC's are stronger.

although I'm guessing gkrieg just doesn't want to out his partner?

[gkrieg13]

Wow you guys sure post a lot.

I still see no serious answer to my question.  Why is it good for masons to claim D1? 

PPE 5

Because while it's possible scum fakeclaims masons, I'd argue it's rare, and it's easy for them both to be caught out later if it's a fakeclaim. And two ICs is very good.

This makes sense.
I am a mason

It would be kinda nice to tell us who your partner is. Unless there's value in having only one partner claim... there might be, actually.

I think I'll leave that up to my partner.  It has been long enough that I think he would have claimed now if he wanted to.

[faust]

Does that mean you cannot talk during the Day?

[Hydrad]

Wow you guys sure post a lot.

I still see no serious answer to my question.  Why is it good for masons to claim D1? 

PPE 5

Because while it's possible scum fakeclaims masons, I'd argue it's rare, and it's easy for them both to be caught out later if it's a fakeclaim. And two ICs is very good.

This makes sense.
I am a mason

It would be kinda nice to tell us who your partner is. Unless there's value in having only one partner claim... there might be, actually.

I think I'll leave that up to my partner.  It has been long enough that I think he would have claimed now if he wanted to.

I'm assuming by long enough you mean since we talked about claiming and not since you claimed correct?

[gkrieg13]

Does that mean you cannot talk during the Day?

no.  The QT is locked.

[Hydrad]

Does that mean you cannot talk during the Day?

no.  The QT is locked.

hmm interesting...

[faust]

Well, I believe that it can definitely be good town play to have only one Mason claim. However, if gkrieg is scum, we kinda want to force him to tie himself to a partner.

[Hydrad]

is the norm on this site it being unlocked all the time i'm assuming?

I checked on mafiascum and it looks like its up in the air for allowing just night chat or all chat.

[Hydrad]

Well, I believe that it can definitely be good town play to have only one Mason claim. However, if gkrieg is scum, we kinda want to force him to tie himself to a partner.

ah didn't think of that.

I'd say at this point i'm around 96% sure gkrieg is town.

[yuma]

we want mason to claim, but leave it up to the mason to decide when... doesnt' need to be immediately, but in the next days before we get close to anyone being lynched, imo

[yuma]

Didn't you listen? No lynching PPS today.

Also, what was this then? Cause I thought you were just being super obvious about you two being masons, but at same time thought you were being too obvious if you were trying to not just come out and say it...

[gkrieg13]

Wow you guys sure post a lot.

I still see no serious answer to my question.  Why is it good for masons to claim D1? 

PPE 5

Because while it's possible scum fakeclaims masons, I'd argue it's rare, and it's easy for them both to be caught out later if it's a fakeclaim. And two ICs is very good.

This makes sense.
I am a mason

Vote: ashersky

why vote ashersky for this?

vote: Hydrad

[Hydrad]

we want mason to claim, but leave it up to the mason to decide when... doesnt' need to be immediately, but in the next days before we get close to anyone being lynched, imo

actually i think i like this one the most.

he still claims day 1 but it might be benificial if someones getting close to a lynch and hes the mason? although i guess that makes it really nice if gkreig is scum... as if one scum partner is in trouble they just claim.

hmm now I'm not sure whats best again.

[Hydrad]

Wow you guys sure post a lot.

I still see no serious answer to my question.  Why is it good for masons to claim D1? 

PPE 5

Because while it's possible scum fakeclaims masons, I'd argue it's rare, and it's easy for them both to be caught out later if it's a fakeclaim. And two ICs is very good.

This makes sense.
I am a mason

Vote: ashersky

why vote ashersky for this?

vote: Hydrad

it was more of a unvote to vote him. I was voting you and then you claimed. So now i switched to someone else.

[gkrieg13]

Wow you guys sure post a lot.

I still see no serious answer to my question.  Why is it good for masons to claim D1? 

PPE 5

Because while it's possible scum fakeclaims masons, I'd argue it's rare, and it's easy for them both to be caught out later if it's a fakeclaim. And two ICs is very good.

This makes sense.
I am a mason

Vote: ashersky

why vote ashersky for this?

vote: Hydrad

it was more of a unvote to vote him. I was voting you and then you claimed. So now i switched to someone else.

So you are trying to get people to claim by voting for them?

[Hydrad]

So you are trying to get people to claim by voting for them?

no? I wasn't voting for you to try and make you claim.

While I was voting for you I started getting a feeling that asher could be scum.

When you became basically an IC my vote on you isn't doing anything so I moved it to the next person I thought was scummy.

[Twistedarcher]

Ok cool. Gkrieg is off the table for today.

100% the other mason needs to claim D1. Maybe not immediately, but it needs to be today.

[Twistedarcher]

WW, I don't think PPS was under any pressure, your vote on him seemed pretty non-serious to me. It wasn't like he was under any lynch pressure whatsoever.

[yuma]

I don't have any scum reads. Some one do something scummy!

[yuma]

My reads are largely about how the wagon progressed on me which I clearly intentionally started to get said reads which is intrinsically not RVS and thus relatively pro-town.

I do have to say that I give your reads no credence whatsoever if this is what they are based upon. Because it was obvious that you were doing some sort of rope-a-dope sort of thing and just being mildly absurd. I don't know how you can get reads that you trust when as you say "clearly, intentionally started" and I don't think that you should be patting yourself on the back for town-cred for doing so.

[pingpongsam]

Just because you do not see it does not mean it is not there. Fact is, the current voting atmosphere has largely aligned with my reads which means others are feeling some of the same vibes. That you want so badly to diminish it is notable.

[yuma]

Just because you do not see it does not mean it is not there. Fact is, the current voting atmosphere has largely aligned with my reads which means others are feeling some of the same vibes. That you want so badly to diminish it is notable.

I don't really care about the CVS (current voting atmosphere, can this become a new f.ds acronym?) but you do realize that by being extremely opaque in what you were doing it invalidates how you are perceiving the reactions?

Unless you have some way of seeing through it that I just can't fathom.

[pingpongsam]

Which is it, obvious or opaque? Make up your mind.

[yuma]

Which is it, obvious or opaque? Make up your mind.

obvious. my mind is made up. my mind thesaurus is confused

[Jimmmmm]

Ugh. This is why Mafia is hard for me. I go to bed and the game hasn't started; I get up and we're on page 12.

[yuma]

Ugh. This is why Mafia is hard for me. I go to bed and the game hasn't started; I get up and we're on page 12.

srlsy what is it with people posting like 50 times!

maybe it is cause they missed you!

recap:

I tried to get people to mass claim, they said no.
PPS self voted, got others to vote for him, moved his vote, others left
gkeirg claimed mason

[pingpongsam]

There have been other claims as well.

[pingpongsam]

Ugh. This is why Mafia is hard for me. I go to bed and the game hasn't started; I get up and we're on page 12.

See, there's your problem, right there.

[yuma]

There have been other claims as well.

there have?

[pingpongsam]

There have been other claims as well.

there have?

Yes, there have been claims of VT.

[yuma]

This is how it works. If you're scum you lie and claim VT. If you're VT you tell the truth and claim VT. If you are a Town PR you hide yourself by claiming VT.

So we all massclaim VT and that is so informative and helpful that Town just wins the game D1.

I'm a VT

If you mean this one? And I am pretty sure it is the only one, then I think you missed that WW was claiming VT in your hypothetical world of everyone claiming VT. But maybe I should let WW speak for himself, but that is how I interpreted it.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.1

Hydrad (3): ashersky, Witherweaver, gkrieg13
ashersky (1): Hydrad
pingpongsam (1): Twistedarcher
yuma (1): chairs
Twistedarcher (2): faust, pingpongsam

Not Voting (4): Awaclus, Jimmmmm, UmbrageOfSnow, yuma

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

[silverspawn]

vote:WW
He is not always town.

Note that this vote didn't count, because there was no whitespace after your colon.

[Twistedarcher]

I didn't vote PPS for the self-vote, I try to ignore those as much as possible.

[gkrieg13]

vote:WW
He is not always town.

Note that this vote didn't count, because there was no whitespace after your colon.

That syntax always gets me.

[Witherweaver]

WW, I don't think PPS was under any pressure, your vote on him seemed pretty non-serious to me. It wasn't like he was under any lynch pressure whatsoever.

Yeah, I was actually hoping for more reactions to my vote, but I guess it was a little too lackadaisical.

[Witherweaver]

Ok cool. Gkrieg is off the table for today.

100% the other mason needs to claim D1. Maybe not immediately, but it needs to be today.

I agree, wait on claim.

[Twistedarcher]

WW, I don't think PPS was under any pressure, your vote on him seemed pretty non-serious to me. It wasn't like he was under any lynch pressure whatsoever.

Yeah, I was actually hoping for more reactions to my vote, but I guess it was a little too lackadaisical.

It's the Sudgy paradox: Voting for pressure generates no pressure when you explicitly state that's the vote is just for pressure. (Sudgy loves to do this, and I think it's a waste of everyone's time, sorry Sudgy )

[Jimmmmm]

Why does the other Mason need to claim Day 1?

If gkrieg is telling the truth and he is killed tonight, that will confirm there is another Mason around who will either be an IC or give us a 50/50 Town/scum, which is good for Town. If he's not killed, the other Mason can claim whenever they want.

If we are about to lynch the other Mason, they just claim.

If gkrieg is lying... well scum don't claim Mason on Day 1.

[Jimmmmm]

Not that I think the other Mason shouldn't claim. I just don't think it's a major issue if they don't yet.

[Witherweaver]

WW, I don't think PPS was under any pressure, your vote on him seemed pretty non-serious to me. It wasn't like he was under any lynch pressure whatsoever.

Yeah, I was actually hoping for more reactions to my vote, but I guess it was a little too lackadaisical.

It's the Sudgy paradox: Voting for pressure generates no pressure when you explicitly state that's the vote is just for pressure. (Sudgy loves to do this, and I think it's a waste of everyone's time, sorry Sudgy )

See, that's why we don't explain votes!

[gkrieg13]

@ everyone
is pps always this way?  Kinda non-serious with some serious stuff thrown in?  It makes it very difficult to read him.

[Witherweaver]

Yes

[yuma]

So I just got back from the hospital where my wife, 2yearold and I met a new addition to our family. We have been signed up to do foster care for about six months and haven't received a placement so were starting to think that we might never get called, but today we got a call to get a 6-day old infant... so I have no idea what that will mean for my activity. Upon signing up I told SS that I would not /out under any circumstances unless they were extraordinary and I am not sure that it is at that level yet, but we will see.

If I remember right from the hog and faze of the first kid 2 years ago I was able to keep playing reasonably well--often posting late at night while with the baby, but if it becomes too much and can't reasonably keep my commitment here I will need to /out. I will monitor and keep everyone informed. We don't get the baby for a couple of days but there will obviously be some prep work that needs to go into getting a baby out of the blue.

Anyways don't want to distract too much from the game, but wanted to let you guys know where I stood and also wanted to share the information, because honestly... we are pretty excited!

[Jimmmmm]

Congrats yuma!

[chairs]

Woot babby.

[Twistedarcher]

Congrats yuma!

[ashersky]

Why does the other Mason need to claim Day 1?

If gkrieg is telling the truth and he is killed tonight, that will confirm there is another Mason around who will either be an IC or give us a 50/50 Town/scum, which is good for Town. If he's not killed, the other Mason can claim whenever they want.

If we are about to lynch the other Mason, they just claim.

If gkrieg is lying... well scum don't claim Mason on Day 1.

Welcome back man.

[ashersky]

Awesome news yuma!  Name him ashersky!

[Awaclus]

Congrats yuma!

[faust]

Protip: gkrieg can use his flavor name to encode the name of his partner. Like this:

"If my flavor name starts with an A, faust is my partner.
If my flavor name starts with a B, PPS is my partner
..."

[Hydrad]

Protip: gkrieg can use his flavor name to encode the name of his partner. Like this:

"If my flavor name starts with an A, faust is my partner.
If my flavor name starts with a B, PPS is my partner
..."

that sounds like a smart thing to do.

[chairs]

Protip: gkrieg can use his flavor name to encode the name of his partner. Like this:

"If my flavor name starts with an A, faust is my partner.
If my flavor name starts with a B, PPS is my partner
..."

[yuma]

Protip: gkrieg can use his flavor name to encode the name of his partner. Like this:

"If my flavor name starts with an A, faust is my partner.
If my flavor name starts with a B, PPS is my partner
..."

that sounds like a smart thing to do.

It might be a smart thing to do, but I personally think that it should be run by the mod first. Because while it isn't necessarily illegal it does get into the gray area of pseudo cryptography.

I had a similar situation when I was the mod in Clue mafia about 2 years ago (back during UoS's first foray into mafia) and while I ultimately allowed it I felt that it gave town an unfair advantage and am not sure that I made the correct decision. The situation was a little bit different because it involved a hider but it illustrated how town can use "meaningless" flavor to gain an advantage and explains why mafiascum does not allow any flavor at all outside of "rolemadness" or "bastard" games.

Here is a reference to that conversation just so people know what I am talking about. It isn't enough for me to be completely and totally opposed, but I just don't like the idea of town taking advantage of something that shouldn't necessarily be part of the advantage (flavor really is just something that SS is putting into the game for fun and isn't an integral part of the game).

As such I still just think the mason should claim today to eliminate confusion and to have an additional voice aid town in moving to a correct lynch.

[silverspawn]

I might disallow this for future games, but since I did not do so in the rules, it is allowed for this game.

[Awaclus]

I might disallow this for future games, but since I did not do so in the rules, it is allowed for this game.

If you want to prevent it for this game, can't you just not reveal the flavor names with flips? There doesn't seem to be a rule which requires you to do so.

[ashersky]

I think we should stop talking about it.

[silverspawn]

I might disallow this for future games, but since I did not do so in the rules, it is allowed for this game.

If you want to prevent it for this game, can't you just not reveal the flavor names with flips? There doesn't seem to be a rule which requires you to do so.

Flavor names will be revealed upon flip.

[pingpongsam]

Nice ploy by Yuma to try an humanize himself. That is what the VLA thread is for. Okay, I am 90% joking there.

As for the flavor, well, the most I can say is that it looks important to some extent and I have an idea already of who relates to me flavor wise so I think flavor reveals on flip are going to be somewhat instrumental moving forward.

[yuma]

Okay, I am 90% joking there.

90%. What is the rest of the 10%?

[pingpongsam]

That really is what VLA thread is for and it does garner humanity points whether you intend for it to or not.

[pingpongsam]

And I am naturally demonized by pointing it out. Feel free to exploit that.

[Awaclus]

I think we should stop talking about it.

Why?

[yuma]

That really is what VLA thread is for and it does garner humanity points whether you intend for it to or not.

Ok that is fair. I didn't put it in the VLA thread because I am only in this game and felt that I only needed to tell the players in this game, but you are probably right and will try to use that better in the future.

[pingpongsam]

I think we should stop talking about it.

Why?

Cause mod rules.

[gkrieg13]

Congrats Yuma!

Protip: gkrieg can use his flavor name to encode the name of his partner. Like this:

"If my flavor name starts with an A, faust is my partner.
If my flavor name starts with a B, PPS is my partner
..."

If my partner already doesn't want to reveal himself, I don't think it makes sense for me to decide when he claims. 

[yuma]

Protip: gkrieg can use his flavor name to encode the name of his partner. Like this:

"If my flavor name starts with an A, faust is my partner.
If my flavor name starts with a B, PPS is my partner
..."

this is the second really obvious breadcrumb/softclaim between you and PPS. I have no qualms about pointing it out because if I am noticing it, multiple people are noticing it and someone in that group is bound to be mafia...

And if you are claiming what you are claiming then either 1. you are lying 2. gkeirg is lying 3. there is a mason trio 4. there are two mason groups (both of which are extremely unlikely)

MMMMM = 3 Masons
MMMMMM = 2 Masons; 2 Masons (i.e. two separate pairings)

of course there could be a 5. in which this isn't a softclaim (nor was what you did before) but then I have to ask why you are doing this...

[Witherweaver]

Let's celebrate Yuma's news by lynching someone.

I nominate whomever it is I'm voting for.

[Witherweaver]

Reads:

Town: Gkrieg, PPS, Ash

Unsure: Jimm, Umbrage,

Not really sure but slight scum feeling: Faust, Yuma

Scum: Hydrad,

Not sure who else is in this game. 

[Awaclus]

Reads:

Town: Gkrieg, PPS, Ash

Unsure: Jimm, Umbrage,

Not really sure but slight scum feeling: Faust, Yuma

Scum: Hydrad,

Not sure who else is in this game.

You forgot to add me onto your town reads list.

[Witherweaver]

Oh, yeah, Awaclus is always a great lynch choice.

[chairs]

I'm not on your radar?

[yuma]

Let's celebrate Yuma's news by lynching someone.

I nominate whomever it is I'm voting for.

weird way to celebrate, but I guess I am down!!!

vote: hydrad

[pingpongsam]

Protip: gkrieg can use his flavor name to encode the name of his partner. Like this:

"If my flavor name starts with an A, faust is my partner.
If my flavor name starts with a B, PPS is my partner
..."

this is the second really obvious breadcrumb/softclaim between you and PPS. I have no qualms about pointing it out because if I am noticing it, multiple people are noticing it and someone in that group is bound to be mafia...

And if you are claiming what you are claiming then either 1. you are lying 2. gkeirg is lying 3. there is a mason trio 4. there are two mason groups (both of which are extremely unlikely)

MMMMM = 3 Masons
MMMMMM = 2 Masons; 2 Masons (i.e. two separate pairings)

of course there could be a 5. in which this isn't a softclaim (nor was what you did before) but then I have to ask why you are doing this...

I agree, I have noticed, although I thought it would be a bit more obvious to me since my name keeps popping up. I will clarify somewhat and say straight up I am not a mason.

[yuma]

Interesting. What do you make of it?

Or should we wait to hear an explanation from faust before giving opinions?

[chairs]

I want to hear from faust, myself.

[chairs]

On a completely unrelated topic, it's good to have you back because at least now someone other than me can reference my vig onslaught in Dynasty Warriors Mafia 

It's my counterargument to the accepted logic that vigs are negative utility.

[yuma]

It's my counterargument to the accepted logic that vigs are negative utility.

well.....

given that the majority of my own personal vig shots have hit town (except for that one great time I hit WW) I am generally on the other side of the spectrum (well honestly, more in the middle as I see vigs as a great weapon in the right hands, but it rarely falls into the right hands), despite your awesome onslaught in that game (which was awesome), so I am not sure if you will get much feedback from me.

in the end I feel that the vigs themselves should decide if vigs should shoot or not

[Hydrad]

I always shoot if I'm a vig. I think I have yet to hit scum

[Hydrad]

Reads:

Town: Gkrieg, PPS, Ash

Unsure: Jimm, Umbrage,

Not really sure but slight scum feeling: Faust, Yuma

Scum: Hydrad,

Not sure who else is in this game.

also why me?

I guess its fine that you've seen me as scummy. Are there specific reasons or just kinda a feeling?

you may have already stated the reasons somewhere but somehow I've forgetten if thats the case sorry.

[faust]

Interesting. What do you make of it?

Or should we wait to hear an explanation from faust before giving opinions?

I did not intend to softclaim anything, but I can see that my posts could be read that way.

[faust]

It's my counterargument to the accepted logic that vigs are negative utility.

well.....

given that the majority of my own personal vig shots have hit town (except for that one great time I hit WW) I am generally on the other side of the spectrum (well honestly, more in the middle as I see vigs as a great weapon in the right hands, but it rarely falls into the right hands), despite your awesome onslaught in that game (which was awesome), so I am not sure if you will get much feedback from me.

in the end I feel that the vigs themselves should decide if vigs should shoot or not

Lynches also hit town more often than they hit scum, yet we continue to lynch. The world is strange.

[yuma]

Interesting. What do you make of it?

Or should we wait to hear an explanation from faust before giving opinions?

I did not intend to softclaim anything, but I can see that my posts could be read that way.

Why were you so adamant that you not lynch PPS earlier? you didnt' answer that question when I asked it before:

Didn't you listen? No lynching PPS today.

Also, what was this then? Cause I thought you were just being super obvious about you two being masons, but at same time thought you were being too obvious if you were trying to not just come out and say it...

[yuma]

It's my counterargument to the accepted logic that vigs are negative utility.

well.....

given that the majority of my own personal vig shots have hit town (except for that one great time I hit WW) I am generally on the other side of the spectrum (well honestly, more in the middle as I see vigs as a great weapon in the right hands, but it rarely falls into the right hands), despite your awesome onslaught in that game (which was awesome), so I am not sure if you will get much feedback from me.

in the end I feel that the vigs themselves should decide if vigs should shoot or not

Lynches also hit town more often than they hit scum, yet we continue to lynch. The world is strange.

Well that isn't really fair to lynches. Because lynches are one of the best tools that a town has to infer concrete stances on how people caused, responded and reacted to a confirmed flip of another player (which is consistently full of interactions with said player because if they are getting lynched are a focal point of the conversation) from which town can hopefully attempt to deduce who the mafia actually are. It is also made in a group setting (which can be bad, but is generally good as it provides more points of view)

Whereas a vig (at least in general a night vig who hasn't claimed) makes the decision alone and the choice doesnt' reflect back on the vig's alignment because he is already town.

but this is derailing to a theory discussion, so I will leave it there...

[gkrieg13]

Just some thoughts.

TA seems a lot quieter than the first time I played with him, where he was scum, so I get a town read on him.

Jimmmm seems lurky so it is hard to get a good read on him.

Yuma seems very active.  I feel like he would know that active people are usually read as town so it's a null tell on him.

Hydrad seems a little scummy to me. 

PPS seems scummy to me as well but people are saying that he is always like this so null.

WW seems as hard to read as ever. 

faust seems towny but he seemed towny in college town where I knew he was scum.  The accidental breadcrumbing with PPS might mean their partners? 

Ash seems very towny to me.

Chairs is pretty null right now.

Everyone else hasn't been active enough for me to get any kind of a read on.  Although I have been in and out a lot so I tend to forget.

[gkrieg13]

Oh I missed UoS and Awaclus.

UoS is usually super active.  Slight scum on him for not really doing anything so far.  That seems SUPER unlike him.  As I think about it, my scum read on him gets stronger.

vote: UoS

Awaclus seems like Awaclus to me.  Very null and hard to read.

[chairs]

vote: UoS.

I hadn't noticed it, but yeah, that's incredibly unusual.

[pingpongsam]

Never played with Umbrage or krieg. Hard to read them. Still fine with my past reads and my current vote.

[yuma]

Never played with Umbrage or krieg. Hard to read them. Still fine with my past reads and my current vote.

Well one is a mason, so kinda an ic... The other said he had computer problems so I  giving him the benifit of the doubt until then...

[Hydrad]

Ya I doubt UoS is purposely lurking. That just doesn't sound like him at all.

[Twistedarcher]

Other than PPS I don't have any real reads at this point honestly. I think you all need to layoff people for lurking, really it's 36 hours into the game and a weekend -- wait until later in the day to see if people are actually lurking.

[faust]

Interesting. What do you make of it?

Or should we wait to hear an explanation from faust before giving opinions?

I did not intend to softclaim anything, but I can see that my posts could be read that way.

Why were you so adamant that you not lynch PPS earlier? you didnt' answer that question when I asked it before:

Didn't you listen? No lynching PPS today.

Also, what was this then? Cause I thought you were just being super obvious about you two being masons, but at same time thought you were being too obvious if you were trying to not just come out and say it...

It's because I think PPS is town.

[yuma]

That early in the game you were soooo confident to declare multiple times that we weren't allowed to lynch PPS?

For clarity at this point there had been 150 (-43 from pre-game) posts in the game and the game had been going on for about 5 hours.

And you actually first declare that PPS wouldn't be lynched today even earlier than that (76 posts into the game, again -43 from pre-game).

Can you tell me which of these posts made you so sure that he was town so quickly?

In that time here are the posts from PPS:

Vote: pingpongsam, no way that guy isn't scum.

but I still have thing about self voting

I know, right? That's why I voted for him too.

I refuse to claim.

I refuse to claim.

BUT WHY? It will be fun!

Seriously. Have we ever had a game where we just mass claimed out of the gates. Conventional thinking has always been that it is bad. But do we have any empirical data to back this up or just theoretics?

Because the last time I claimed VT on day 1 they mislynched me.

This is how it works. If you're scum you lie and claim VT. If you're VT you tell the truth and claim VT. If you are a Town PR you hide yourself by claiming VT.

So we all massclaim VT and that is so informative and helpful that Town just wins the game D1.

This is how it works. If you're scum you lie and claim VT. If you're VT you tell the truth and claim VT. If you are a Town PR you hide yourself by claiming VT.

So we all massclaim VT and that is so informative and helpful that Town just wins the game D1.

If you are a town PR why would you hide as claiming VT? that would be silly.

And if all the mafia claimed VT that would be great! We would just lynch VTs and the pool size would be 3 mafia in 9 instead of 3 mafia in 12! Awesome!

Okay, so clearly scum is going to claim PR (at least 1 of them), so the strategy has to become lynch claimed PRs since the pool from which there are obvious liars to hit is likely much smaller. Meanwhile the scum who claimed VT know which PR to kill when it is most beneficial to do so otherwise hitting VTs until the time is right.

This is how it works. If you're scum you lie and claim VT. If you're VT you tell the truth and claim VT. If you are a Town PR you hide yourself by claiming VT.

So we all massclaim VT and that is so informative and helpful that Town just wins the game D1.

If you are a town PR why would you hide as claiming VT? that would be silly.

And if all the mafia claimed VT that would be great! We would just lynch VTs and the pool size would be 3 mafia in 9 instead of 3 mafia in 12! Awesome!

Scumslip.

The only people who could have an assumption regarding PR count at this time are scum.

vote: yuma

See, I don't even know how to tell if this is true or not.

This idea is either slightly (but statistically insignificant) better than No Lynch which is a terrible idea without question.

chairs isn't lurking. when chairs lurks you don't see him hardly at all ever. This is highly active chairs.
The only sane vote on chairs at this moment is for playing outside his meta.

This idea is either slightly (but statistically insignificant) better than No Lynch which is a terrible idea without question.

I disagree and unless you show me how I will continue. But that is ok. I think it would be fun and potentially beneficial to mass claim. It hasnt' been done before so I don't know why people (including me of the past) are so sure that it is terrible.

Honestly I think the risk is relatively small and the reward is also relatively small (but potentially really big because it puts the onus on mafia to not make a critical mistake).

The issue is, in a matter of minutes between just the two of us we contrived 3 wholly different outcomes for this which means that there isn't any way to determine what the actual outcome is even within a suitable subset of possible outcomes. Thus, it is dis-informative and by the time the actuality of the course of action begins to pan out it will be too late for the duped Townies.

No it isn't. I am not counting PRs. I am counting mafia, which everyone knows...

How do you know that it becomes 3 mafia out of 9 VTs?

Because in the scenario described all persons claimed VT.

If I were a Town PR forced to claim I would claim VT. Thus, I am fundamentally opposed.

If I were a Town PR forced to claim I would claim VT. Thus, I am fundamentally opposed.

ok. well if you are fundamentally opposed then I will drop it. I am not going to force anyone. I would like to try to talk people into it. BUT I do want to do it at some point in a mafia game. I think it would 1. be good for town in that game and 2. provide evidence for the future.

If you truly support the notion you would first claim yourself.

WW claimed VT and has not been wagoned yet.

So you want us to create empirical evidence that it is, in fact, a bad idea...

Generally, speaking, I like to have an assumption that something is a good idea before I embark upon an effort to obtain empirical evidence that it was, in fact, a good idea. Starting off on the assumption that an idea is bad is not a good reason to try and prove it so.

Voting for PPS is the only reasonable course of action at this point.

A quick, cursory glance shows posts that up to the point that you made your strong declaration were 1. self voting 2. arguing with me about theory 3. once defending chairs about lurking 4.

It isn't that I don't think you can have a town read from that, it is that I don't think you can have really any read from that (and this isn't a criticism of PPS's posts) let alone a strong read to say multiple times that we shouldn't be lynching him.

[Witherweaver]

Remember that time I pointed all of that out and no one noticed?

[yuma]

Nope... But I believe you!

[Twistedarcher]

Remember that time I pointed all of that out and no one noticed?

I don't, and I looked back in the last 5 pages and didn't find it. It looks to me like you voted PPS for pressure, unvoted him, and now you have a town read. How is that similar to Yuma pointing out that he doesn't understand where a town!PPS read comes from.

[Witherweaver]

Remember that time I pointed all of that out and no one noticed?

I don't, and I looked back in the last 5 pages and didn't find it. It looks to me like you voted PPS for pressure, unvoted him, and now you have a town read. How is that similar to Yuma pointing out that he doesn't understand where a town!PPS read comes from.

I was talking about pointing out how it was odd that Faust had such a strong read so early.

I have a town read on PPS for the general sensibilities of his reads/wagon analysis and how he went about it.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Computer is toast.
Should be able to borrow laptop tomorrow afternoon.
I'll catch up then.

[Awaclus]

Computer is toast.
Should be able to borrow laptop tomorrow afternoon.
I'll catch up then.

That's not a proper haiku.

[yuma]

anyone want to give me a quick synopsis of awaclus' typical meta as town/mafia

[Witherweaver]

anyone want to give me a quick synopsis of awaclus' typical meta as town/mafia

Town is epitome of antitown, and stubbornly so.  Aside from the minor town benefit of presenting himself as a viable mislynch target for scum, I'm led to assume this is for the purpose of ease of replication for scum games.  Scum is, then, an attempt to emulate the former. 

[Witherweaver]

You can also refer to his signature. 

[yuma]

You can also refer to his signature.

I have all the signatures blocked (too many dancing pokemon and floating banners) but that information is good to know, cause I kinda want to vote for him...

[Witherweaver]

Actually apparently it's from a game that's still going on, but this is the link: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13768.msg520589#msg520589.

[ashersky]

Yeah, basically that.

Awaclus is the most anti-town player currently active, by far.  He's overtaken me by a long shot.

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, basically that.

Awaclus is the most anti-town player currently active, by far.  He's overtaken me by a long shot.

Quick!  Self vote!

[chairs]

Yeah, basically that.

Awaclus is the most anti-town player currently active, by far.  He's overtaken me by a long shot.

It's okay, I have faith you can get the title back.

[yuma]

Yeah, basically that.

Awaclus is the most anti-town player currently active, by far.  He's overtaken me by a long shot.

Well I can't say anything about Awaclus--if he wants to jump in on that regard I think that would be fair, but certainly doesnt' have to--but I don't think you are being very fair to yourself.

I never considered you an anti-town player in that I always felt that you thought what you were doing was best for town, at least when you actually were town. I don't feel like you ever played town badly just so you would have an advantage during scum games or played town badly just to troll or whatever.

But in terms of his meta is there a way to separate town!awaclus and mafia!awaclus. I mean, it is never easy to separate anyone from those two identities and certainly don't expect there to be a magic bullet for it or is he one of those players that consistently just requires a flip/investigation the only way to really find him out?

[Witherweaver]

But in terms of his meta is there a way to separate town!awaclus and mafia!awaclus. I mean, it is never easy to separate anyone from those two identities and certainly don't expect there to be a magic bullet for it or is he one of those players that consistently just requires a flip/investigation the only way to really find him out?

I think there is, but I'm not sure it's so great to talk about it.

[ashersky]

I think he does a good job of emulating his town self as scum, mostly because it's all about being mysterious, not explaining things, not giving any actual opinions.  He likes to vote without reason, call people scummy or towny without reasons, etc.

I feel like if he all of a sudden were more towny, it wouldn't mean he's scum, just that he's finally come around.

And the only reason he'll ever come around is because he's been lynched too often.

[yuma]

I think he does a good job of emulating his town self as scum, mostly because it's all about being mysterious, not explaining things, not giving any actual opinions.  He likes to vote without reason, call people scummy or towny without reasons, etc.

I feel like if he all of a sudden were more towny, it wouldn't mean he's scum, just that he's finally come around.

And the only reason he'll ever come around is because he's been lynched too often.

ok

vote: awalcus

[faust]

That early in the game you were soooo confident to declare multiple times that we weren't allowed to lynch PPS?

For clarity at this point there had been 150 (-43 from pre-game) posts in the game and the game had been going on for about 5 hours.

And you actually first declare that PPS wouldn't be lynched today even earlier than that (76 posts into the game, again -43 from pre-game).

Can you tell me which of these posts made you so sure that he was town so quickly?

Well, I don't love to explain my own playstyle, but if it helps you...

PPS's early-game behaviour did not read scum to me. I mean, what is the reason for scum to self-vote? Of course scum!PPS could pull it off, but that plus a general feeling that this isn't scum!PPS made me want to PoE him for D1.

And just when I decided this, a PPS wagon forms. I think it helps move the game forward if you take firm stances, no matter how badly justified they are. So that is what I did.

[faust]

I think he does a good job of emulating his town self as scum, mostly because it's all about being mysterious, not explaining things, not giving any actual opinions.  He likes to vote without reason, call people scummy or towny without reasons, etc.

I feel like if he all of a sudden were more towny, it wouldn't mean he's scum, just that he's finally come around.

And the only reason he'll ever come around is because he's been lynched too often.

ok

vote: awalcus

Vote: yuma

[yuma]

Well, I don't love to explain my own playstyle, but if it helps you...

PPS's early-game behaviour did not read scum to me. I mean, what is the reason for scum to self-vote? Of course scum!PPS could pull it off, but that plus a general feeling that this isn't scum!PPS made me want to PoE him for D1.

And just when I decided this, a PPS wagon forms. I think it helps move the game forward if you take firm stances, no matter how badly justified they are. So that is what I did.

I actually don't mind the justification. I mind the extremely strong stance that is above and beyond a stance. There is a need for strong stances, yes. But the opinion of "I think PPS is town right now" is still a strong stance. So is "PPS really looks townie to me" or "I am not going to vote for PPS because I think he is town". Those are all still strong stances.

But you went above that. You made it look like you knew something above just having reads and I think it is important to differentiate between that. Your doing so was weird to me.

But before day1 started I was reading through a couple of my old games, where I thought I played well as town, to try and remember how to scumhunt and I found this old quote that I liked:

I mean, it is gratifying that people think my cases are good. Obvioulsy the one on nkiribit wasn't. I don't know if the one on lio is or not. I will go read his responses and see what comes of them.

Ultimately I am trying to change up how I read people and try and go about this differently, because aside from a really solid case on WinterSpartan in Ninjas, calling out archetype in bankers and a somewhat lucky, but still really solid case on Dsell in the Blitz game, I haven't had the best of luck as of late and part of that is because I think I am calling out weird behavior as opposed to mafia play.

so while I think your behavior weird, I don't necessarily think it is scummy and I think your response furthers that opinion.

[yuma]

I think he does a good job of emulating his town self as scum, mostly because it's all about being mysterious, not explaining things, not giving any actual opinions.  He likes to vote without reason, call people scummy or towny without reasons, etc.

I feel like if he all of a sudden were more towny, it wouldn't mean he's scum, just that he's finally come around.

And the only reason he'll ever come around is because he's been lynched too often.

ok

vote: awalcus

Vote: yuma

and now you have voted for me... that is too bad. is the post you quote the sole justification or was my questioning you part of your vote?

[faust]

The post is the justificifation. It just looks like a completely non-committal policy vote that is based on nothing but people telling you things about Awaclus that you haven't even confirmed in any way.

[yuma]

The post is the justificifation. It just looks like a completely non-committal policy vote that is based on nothing but people telling you things about Awaclus that you haven't even confirmed in any way.

it is a vote, how much more committed can you get in this game? Isn't a policy vote... see my vote on pps if you want to see a policy vote and sure I am relying on things that people have told me about Awaclus that I have confirmed with his play in this game. If people disagree with the other's analysis of him then they should feel free to do so but so far those that posted about him, agreed with each other, compared favorably with him this game and those who haven't said anything about him, haven't disputed what they said about him, which I interpret as a silent agreement.

Right now, as i have said before I am pretty null when it comes to scum reads, but if I am going to vote for one of those null reads, which I want to do so that we can have votes moving around instead of just sitting accumulating dust, it is going to be for the one that is universally the hardest for everyone to read.

[Twistedarcher]

I agree that Faust strikes me as townier this game, however that does nothing to dissuade me from voting PPS. Also townier on yuma

[pingpongsam]

I was actually thinking Faust might be scum trying to appear connected to me so that if I flip first he looks town and if he flips first I am obvious next mislynch. TA is still reading scum to me.

[ashersky]

I agree with PPS's line of thinking on faust.

[yuma]

I agree with PPS's line of thinking on faust.

I agree with your agreeing with PPS's line of thinking on faust

[ashersky]

Lemme Voltaire this:

chairs
UmbrageOfSnow
Witherweaver
gkrieg13
yuma
Awaclus
ashersky
faust
Hydrad
TwistedArcher
Jimmmmm
pingpongsam

UOS because early game pass/LA.
gkrieg because duh.
yuma because early game pass.
me because duh.
Jimmmmm because early game pass/doesn't actually lurk as scum ever.

So...not really that POE'ed yet.  But it's a start.

[yuma]

yuma because early game pass.

not that I want suspicion, but I think my year long hiatus should negate any early game pass that anyone might have once given me. I am not the scum hunter that I once was... nor was I necessarily ever if I am being perfectly honest.

[Witherweaver]

I was actually thinking Faust might be scum trying to appear connected to me so that if I flip first he looks town and if he flips first I am obvious next mislynch. TA is still reading scum to me.

I don't buy this from Faust's playstyle.  More likely scum motivation is that hedgey/careful => scum, so having strong opinions should be towny, hence a quick "strong town read" read.

[Witherweaver]

yuma because early game pass.

not that I want suspicion, but I think my year long hiatus should negate any early game pass that anyone might have once given me. I am not the scum hunter that I once was... nor was I necessarily ever if I am being perfectly honest.

"Hey, if I was scum why would I ever argue against a free pass?"

[faust]

The post is the justificifation. It just looks like a completely non-committal policy vote that is based on nothing but people telling you things about Awaclus that you haven't even confirmed in any way.

it is a vote, how much more committed can you get in this game? Isn't a policy vote... see my vote on pps if you want to see a policy vote and sure I am relying on things that people have told me about Awaclus that I have confirmed with his play in this game. If people disagree with the other's analysis of him then they should feel free to do so but so far those that posted about him, agreed with each other, compared favorably with him this game and those who haven't said anything about him, haven't disputed what they said about him, which I interpret as a silent agreement.

Right now, as i have said before I am pretty null when it comes to scum reads, but if I am going to vote for one of those null reads, which I want to do so that we can have votes moving around instead of just sitting accumulating dust, it is going to be for the one that is universally the hardest for everyone to read.

You vote for Awaclus quoting a post by ashersky saying that the only way Awaclus changes his meta is if he gets lynched too often. To me, that read as "okay, let's teach the guys some manners". I.e. policy vote.

[yuma]

yuma because early game pass.

not that I want suspicion, but I think my year long hiatus should negate any early game pass that anyone might have once given me. I am not the scum hunter that I once was... nor was I necessarily ever if I am being perfectly honest.

"Hey, if I was scum why would I ever argue against a free pass?"

"not that I want suspicion, but I think my year long hiatus should negate any early game pass that anyone might have once given me. I am not the scum hunter that I once was... nor was I necessarily ever if I am being perfectly honest."

[yuma]

You vote for Awaclus quoting a post by ashersky saying that the only way Awaclus changes his meta is if he gets lynched too often. To me, that read as "okay, let's teach the guys some manners". I.e. policy vote.

I can see why you might have thought that. What I meant above when I talked about my true policy vote on PPS was that I specifically said it was a policy vote. That is how I policy vote by citing the policy, otherwise what is it?

[ashersky]

yuma because early game pass.

not that I want suspicion, but I think my year long hiatus should negate any early game pass that anyone might have once given me. I am not the scum hunter that I once was... nor was I necessarily ever if I am being perfectly honest.

Honestly, it's not that you are any good -- just that I'm glad you are back and don't want to lose you so soon!

[yuma]

Honestly, it's not that you are any good -- just that I'm glad you are back and don't want to lose you so soon!

Well that is good! But if I die, I'll just sign up for faust's game! I don't think I am going anywhere soon... (not to give faust another reason to continue voting for me)

[faust]

Jimmmmm because early game pass/doesn't actually lurk as scum ever.

Let me consult the records for Jimmmmm scum games.

M18: 33 posts (okay, he was killed N1)
M28: 43 posts, lynched D4
M33: 112 posts, alive until the end
M38: 114 posts, alive until the end
M48: 59 posts, alive until the end

I don't think this qualifies as "Jimmmmm doesn't lurk as scum, ever".

[faust]

Also there is an obvious trend of Jimmmmm always being scum in games ending with 8 

[yuma]

Jimmmmm because early game pass/doesn't actually lurk as scum ever.

Let me consult the records for Jimmmmm scum games.

M18: 33 posts (okay, he was killed N1) 63.94 per player per player
M28: 43 posts, lynched D4 114.67 per player
M33: 112 posts, alive until the end   103.23 per player
M38: 114 posts, alive until the end 82.23 per player
M48: 59 posts, alive until the end 91.46 per playe

I don't think this qualifies as "Jimmmmm doesn't lurk as scum, ever".

this needs averages for context: see above...

[yuma]

and further compared to his town games:

Jimmmmm (90) (94 per player)
Jimmmmm (313) (199.87 per player)
Jimmmmm (52) (81.67 per player) killednight1
Jimmmmm (246) (149.06 per player)
Jimmmmm (109) (142.31 per player)
Jimmmmm (248) (123.42 per player)
Jimmmmm (128) (121.23 per player)
Jimmmmm (103) (108.46 per player)
Jimmmmm (119) (40.17 per player)
Jimmmmm (118) (193.95 per player)
Jimmmmm (40) (66.33 per player) lynched day1
Jimmmmm (36) (37.78 per player)

[Witherweaver]

Actually it should be averaged to posts per game day or something. 

[ashersky]

Looks like generally less than average as town, at or more than average as scum.

That's a generalization, of course.

[ashersky]

Eh, I still feel like more active Jimmmmm is scummy Jimmmmmm.

[yuma]

Looks like generally less than average as town, at or more than average as scum.

That's a generalization, of course.

I agree. But the real point of the discussion was in regard to giving Jimmmmm a pass. Right now I am. Come toward the end of day that pass will dissipate, because this day has mostly been going on during the weekend so availability is up in the air. It feels less like Jimmmm has been lurking and more like Jimmmmm hasn't been available to be online, which is independent of alignment (same as UoS), which is why he is getting a semi-pass.

So the question I now have for faust is whether he had a problem with ash giving a pass or if he had a problem with ash, in his opinion, characterizing Jimmmm's activity?

[yuma]

characterizing Jimmmm's activity?

should be mis-characterizing

[ashersky]

So the question I now have for faust is whether he had a problem with ash giving a pass or if he had a problem with ash, in his opinion, characterizing Jimmmm's activity?

Either way, sounds like a vote: faust situation!

[yuma]

So the question I now have for faust is whether he had a problem with ash giving a pass or if he had a problem with ash, in his opinion, characterizing Jimmmm's activity?

Either way, sounds like a vote: faust situation!

I disagree.

[gkrieg13]

I agree that Faust strikes me as townier this game, however that does nothing to dissuade me from voting PPS. Also townier on yuma

townier than which game?

[ashersky]

Boo.

[ashersky]

Back on claiming for a minute.  As far as "solving" goes, the best claims to follow masons are the guaranteed double letters...so full cop and full vig.

But, well, I think that'd be bad.

[Awaclus]

Town is epitome of antitown, and stubbornly so.  Aside from the minor town benefit of presenting himself as a viable mislynch target for scum, I'm led to assume this is for the purpose of ease of replication for scum games.  Scum is, then, an attempt to emulate the former.

I play every game with no intentions other than winning that particular game, and I believe my playstyle is pro-town whenever I'm town.

I think he does a good job of emulating his town self as scum, mostly because it's all about being mysterious, not explaining things, not giving any actual opinions.  He likes to vote without reason, call people scummy or towny without reasons, etc.

I never do anything without reasons, I just don't explain those reasons. Even as scum, I think up fake reasons that I have recently learned to post less than I used to.

[gkrieg13]

Computer is toast.
Should be able to borrow laptop tomorrow afternoon.
I'll catch up then.

unvote

[gkrieg13]

I think he does a good job of emulating his town self as scum, mostly because it's all about being mysterious, not explaining things, not giving any actual opinions.  He likes to vote without reason, call people scummy or towny without reasons, etc.

I feel like if he all of a sudden were more towny, it wouldn't mean he's scum, just that he's finally come around.

And the only reason he'll ever come around is because he's been lynched too often.

ok

vote: awalcus

Vote: yuma

Isn't this kind of policy voting for a policy vote?

[gkrieg13]

vote: Hydrad

His first post comes off scummy to me and he doesn't really add to his towniness with his other posts.

[faust]

Looks like generally less than average as town, at or more than average as scum.

That's a generalization, of course.

[Twistedarcher]

I agree that Faust strikes me as townier this game, however that does nothing to dissuade me from voting PPS. Also townier on yuma

townier than which game?

Townier as opposed to scummier

[yuma]

I never do anything without reasons, I just don't explain those reasons. Even as scum, I think up fake reasons that I have recently learned to post less than I used to.

I am legitimately curious about this. Why do you not post explanations? Do you answer people when they ask for explanations? (answering this question in a sense answers that question...) Do you see any value in posting explanations when other people post explanation or do you think we should all play this way? Basically I am wondering what you see as the benefit because if you see it, and if it really exists, maybe I should be posting with less public explanation...

[Witherweaver]

I think withholding explanation does have its uses.  For one, if I think you're scum and you're town, well, no matter how much I explain, you're not going to buy my argument.  It can easily devolve into an argument.  Even if I think you're scum and you're scum, I may not have a great explanation or may not be able to articulate it well (really, I play by gut/feeling a lot), so it can also devolve into an argument or get debased.  Plus, misdirecting scum is a thing.    And similarly, the less information scum has, the less informed their decisions are. 

It can also be helpful to get interactions, responses, etc.  Sometimes a lone vote can lead to interesting things.

It also lets you fake reads much easier as scum.  If you don't prevent reasons or explanations for your (honest) reads, then you can argue that you can't be held accountable for not explaining your fabricated reads. 

[Jimmmmm]

Hey folks, just checking in. I have the next two days after today off, so plenty of time to catch up.

[yuma]

I think withholding explanation does have its uses. 

Sure, I agree and have done as such in the past in limited fashion. But I am under the impression that Awaclus pretty much does it exclusively.

And it worth noting that not only has Awalcus not explained his reasoning for anything so far today, he hasn't done anything that would necessitate reason (or an explanation). See his prior 15 posts if you want to know what I am talking about. The only post that has a little bit of substance is the one where he continues chair's question about the 3 mafia in 9 VTs.

[Jimmmmm]

Just an idea: if there's a Universal Backup, should they claim?

[Jimmmmm]

Just an idea: if there's a Universal Backup, should they claim?

I think yes. A UB only does something if the first PR to die is a 1-shot. With a claimed Mason, it seems most likely that this will not be the case.

I'm not a UB.

[ashersky]

Just an idea: if there's a Universal Backup, should they claim?

We discussed this earlier.  It's generally good, if there are masons, in my estimation.  It's basically another IC, and helps with setup solutions.

[ashersky]

Just an idea: if there's a Universal Backup, should they claim?

I think yes. A UB only does something if the first PR to die is a 1-shot. With a claimed Mason, it seems most likely that this will not be the case.

I'm not a UB.

Huh?  The UB inherits the first PR, 1-shot or not.

[Jimmmmm]

Just an idea: if there's a Universal Backup, should they claim?

We discussed this earlier.  It's generally good, if there are masons, in my estimation.  It's basically another IC, and helps with setup solutions.

Yeah sorry, I just realised that. I support the idea, obviously.

[Jimmmmm]

Just an idea: if there's a Universal Backup, should they claim?

I think yes. A UB only does something if the first PR to die is a 1-shot. With a claimed Mason, it seems most likely that this will not be the case.

I'm not a UB.

Huh?  The UB inherits the first PR, 1-shot or not.

Yeah okay, that makes more sense. This was the only UB description:

--If a 1-Shot PR is the first PR to die, the UB will inherit that role, even if the shot was used up. The UB will not receive a new shot.will fail.

But I guess that's not Universal.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.2

faust (1): ashersky
Hydrad (3): Witherweaver, yuma, gkrieg13
ashersky (1): Hydrad
pingpongsam (1): Twistedarcher
yuma (1): faust
Twistedarcher (1): pingpongsam
UmbrageOfSnow (1): chairs

Not Voting (3): Awaclus, Jimmmmm, UmbrageOfSnow

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 21, 3 PM forum time.

[yuma]

I think he does a good job of emulating his town self as scum, mostly because it's all about being mysterious, not explaining things, not giving any actual opinions.  He likes to vote without reason, call people scummy or towny without reasons, etc.

I feel like if he all of a sudden were more towny, it wouldn't mean he's scum, just that he's finally come around.

And the only reason he'll ever come around is because he's been lynched too often.

ok

vote: awalcus

I am actually voting awalcus, but I think I will actually go back to vote: hydrad

[Awaclus]

I am legitimately curious about this. Why do you not post explanations? Do you answer people when they ask for explanations? (answering this question in a sense answers that question...) Do you see any value in posting explanations when other people post explanation or do you think we should all play this way? Basically I am wondering what you see as the benefit because if you see it, and if it really exists, maybe I should be posting with less public explanation...

Well, the experience I have had as playing scum is that when people explain their scum reads on me, it's a lot easier for me to explain them away. As town, I don't think I need to hear the explanations for scum reads on me to argue against them, because I can just point to the consistent town narrative that I know for a fact is there, regardless of what the argument against me supposedly is. And I don't really want scum to explain my scum read on them away, so that's why I generally don't explain them. I might actually explain town reads sometimes; sometimes I can't be bothered with it if I think the reason should be obvious anyway.

Most of the time, I do actually answer people when they ask for explanations, but the answer I tend to give in this situation is "because you're scum".

There is certainly value in posting explanations sometimes, e.g. when you notice something nobody else has noticed, or possibly have an investigative result on someone. Even in the former case, I like to just quote the posts of interest to draw attention to them without much further explanation, but at that point it doesn't really make a difference either way so it's more of a stylistic thing. I do think that other people oftentimes explain things too much when it's not really useful to do so. I'm not really sure what the perfect balance is, though.

It also lets you fake reads much easier as scum.  If you don't prevent reasons or explanations for your (honest) reads, then you can argue that you can't be held accountable for not explaining your fabricated reads.

Which is 100% irrelevant because you can always fabricate an explanation as easily as you can fabricate a read in the first place.

I am actually voting awalcus

You might need to spell my name correctly if you want the vote to count.

[yuma]

Exact name syntax has never been required in any game I have ever played before and if mine didn't count then neither should have votes on "ash" or ww" but sorry for getting your name wrong, I'll try to get it right the next time I vote for you.

But now that I am def not voting for you and am voting for hydrad, I'll ask what you think of him?

[silverspawn]

Exact name syntax has never been required in any game I have ever played before and if mine didn't count then neither should have votes on "ash" or ww" but sorry for getting your name wrong, I'll try to get it right the next time I vote for you.

But now that I am def not voting for you and am voting for hydrad, I'll ask what you think of him?

I am counting votes with common nicknames, but not with spelling errors. Part of the reason is that I do vote counts via program and not by hand, another part is that I like there to be the potential for fake hammers and such.

[Hydrad]

Hmm.

But now that I am def not voting for you and am voting for hydrad, I'll ask what you think of him?

I think Hydrad is a wonderful guy and the obviously most towny player in the game. Scum may as well just surrender since they know they are going to lose.

[Hydrad]

but also. Its feeling like its gut feelings on me? Thats alright to have that as your reason for voting me. But it doesn't really give me much to explain why your wrong.

[yuma]

that is cool and now that you have made it official that is fine, but I would recommend putting it into the ruleset if that is how you are going to interpret votes as the previous status quo was to accept obvious misspellings (although to be fair the mafia rules only say obvious abbreviations or nicknames)

[gkrieg13]

Hmm.

But now that I am def not voting for you and am voting for hydrad, I'll ask what you think of him?

I think Hydrad is a wonderful guy and the obviously most towny player in the game. Scum may as well just surrender since they know they are going to lose.

This doesn't give me a lot of confidence

[silverspawn]

that is cool and now that you have made it official that is fine, but I would recommend putting it into the ruleset if that is how you are going to interpret votes as the previous status quo was to accept obvious misspellings (although to be fair the mafia rules only say obvious abbreviations or nicknames)

I've done that in previous games, forgot it here. I'll add it.

[yuma]

but also. Its feeling like its gut feelings on me? Thats alright to have that as your reason for voting me. But it doesn't really give me much to explain why your wrong.

you haven't been a townread, a couple of players have pointed out scummish things you have done (I haven't really been super-duper impressed with those points, but they are points) and I saw that like seven people were voting for people with only one vote on them (including me) so I went back to voting for you.

[gkrieg13]

that is cool and now that you have made it official that is fine, but I would recommend putting it into the ruleset if that is how you are going to interpret votes as the previous status quo was to accept obvious misspellings (although to be fair the mafia rules only say obvious abbreviations or nicknames)

This also means people will get my name right for once!

[yuma]

that is cool and now that you have made it official that is fine, but I would recommend putting it into the ruleset if that is how you are going to interpret votes as the previous status quo was to accept obvious misspellings (although to be fair the mafia rules only say obvious abbreviations or nicknames)

This also means people will get my name right for once!

do you anticipate people voting for you this game? 

[gkrieg13]

that is cool and now that you have made it official that is fine, but I would recommend putting it into the ruleset if that is how you are going to interpret votes as the previous status quo was to accept obvious misspellings (although to be fair the mafia rules only say obvious abbreviations or nicknames)

This also means people will get my name right for once!

do you anticipate people voting for you this game? 

haha.  Just check any game I've been in and you will see why I'm happy about this.  Of special note is college town mafia.

[Hydrad]

but also. Its feeling like its gut feelings on me? Thats alright to have that as your reason for voting me. But it doesn't really give me much to explain why your wrong.

you haven't been a townread, a couple of players have pointed out scummish things you have done (I haven't really been super-duper impressed with those points, but they are points) and I saw that like seven people were voting for people with only one vote on them (including me) so I went back to voting for you.

Ok that sounds like good logic to me.

So currently I feel like my wagon might be town driven. I don't know if I've ever felt like that before and don't know if that helps anything at all. Just thought I'd let you guys know.

[yuma]

unvote

vote: faust

[gkrieg13]

That was a good enough explanation for you?

[Hydrad]

That was a good enough explanation for you?

ya for a day1 vote kinda thing thats probably more then I can give on some of my day 1 votes in games.

It also sounded like something that scum wouldn't fake and felt more like it was town thinking through his thought process.

[gkrieg13]

That was a good enough explanation for you?

ya for a day1 vote kinda thing thats probably more then I can give on some of my day 1 votes in games.

It also sounded like something that scum wouldn't fake and felt more like it was town thinking through his thought process.

Sorry that was directed at yuma

[Witherweaver]

but also. Its feeling like its gut feelings on me? Thats alright to have that as your reason for voting me. But it doesn't really give me much to explain why your wrong.

You also haven't done anything this game.

[Hydrad]

but also. Its feeling like its gut feelings on me? Thats alright to have that as your reason for voting me. But it doesn't really give me much to explain why your wrong.

You also haven't done anything this game.

Hmm that is a problem. I feel like I've been doing some stuff? But I guess not enough. ahha I know I'll do a quick read list. I always enjoy doing a day1 read list and seeing how far off it is.

[Hydrad]

hmm should I do the numbers again? I tried that once and it didn't go very well for some reason. Ah well lets try it again

0 = IC. 10 = conf scum

chairs = 4 uhh i dunno why but slight town
UmbrageOfSnow = 5 nothing there D:
Witherweaver = 3 for no real reason
gkrieg13 = 0 for obvious reasons
yuma = 2.4 probably my second towniest read right now. (and now I just enabled decimals)
Awaclus = 5.7 Hes been town in the last few games i think so obviously hes going to be scum here.
ashersky = 6.8 bad vibes from him
faust = 6 Hasn't felt like super town faust like usual But its still early day 1 so maybe it will appear
Hydrad = 0 wow so town
TwistedArcher = 5 I remember nothing from you right now for somereason
Jimmmmm = 5 not enough to go off of
pingpongsam = 4.9? I don't know I didn't want to give him a null but I couldn't decide if hes town or scum so its pretty much null

Hmm well I don't really like this as much as I'd  hoped. I don't have enough of you as scummy. Maybe I should of made PPS 5.1... that would make it perfect. ah well to late to go back now.

[yuma]

That was a good enough explanation for you?

Sure! I probably shouldn't have voted for Faust though... Partly depends on how he answers question of mine.... But I'll leave it there for now!

[faust]

I think he does a good job of emulating his town self as scum, mostly because it's all about being mysterious, not explaining things, not giving any actual opinions.  He likes to vote without reason, call people scummy or towny without reasons, etc.

I feel like if he all of a sudden were more towny, it wouldn't mean he's scum, just that he's finally come around.

And the only reason he'll ever come around is because he's been lynched too often.

ok

vote: awalcus

Vote: yuma

Isn't this kind of policy voting for a policy vote?

No, it's voting for someone because I think policy voting is scummy.

[faust]

That was a good enough explanation for you?

Sure! I probably shouldn't have voted for Faust though... Partly depends on how he answers question of mine.... But I'll leave it there for now!

What questions do you still need answered?

[faust]

yuma = 2.4 probably my second towniest read right now. (and now I just enabled decimals)

Can you try to give reasons for why you think yuma is town?

[yuma]

Looks like generally less than average as town, at or more than average as scum.

That's a generalization, of course.

I agree. But the real point of the discussion was in regard to giving Jimmmmm a pass. Right now I am. Come toward the end of day that pass will dissipate, because this day has mostly been going on during the weekend so availability is up in the air. It feels less like Jimmmm has been lurking and more like Jimmmmm hasn't been available to be online, which is independent of alignment (same as UoS), which is why he is getting a semi-pass.

So the question I now have for faust is whether he had a problem with ash giving a pass or if he had a problem with ash, in his opinion, characterizing Jimmmm's activity?

This is the one... it was kinda couched at the bottom of this so i don't blame you for missing it. If you want to answer that would be swell!

[Hydrad]

yuma = 2.4 probably my second towniest read right now. (and now I just enabled decimals)

Can you try to give reasons for why you think yuma is town?

Hmm sure.

so from the beginning hes seemed just generally towny in being active and some posts. So that probably made him a slight town in my eyes.

then he posted about how hes trying to change his meta a bit this game which in my eyes seems more likely to happen as town then scum by a bit. Since scum probably wants to emulate their old meta instead of changing it as it can be a bit risky to change as scum. so a bit more mild town points.

but also. Its feeling like its gut feelings on me? Thats alright to have that as your reason for voting me. But it doesn't really give me much to explain why your wrong.

you haven't been a townread, a couple of players have pointed out scummish things you have done (I haven't really been super-duper impressed with those points, but they are points) and I saw that like seven people were voting for people with only one vote on them (including me) so I went back to voting for you.

and then this post made me feel much townier on him. As it really feels like an honest town perspective instead of a scum one.

[faust]

Looks like generally less than average as town, at or more than average as scum.

That's a generalization, of course.

I agree. But the real point of the discussion was in regard to giving Jimmmmm a pass. Right now I am. Come toward the end of day that pass will dissipate, because this day has mostly been going on during the weekend so availability is up in the air. It feels less like Jimmmm has been lurking and more like Jimmmmm hasn't been available to be online, which is independent of alignment (same as UoS), which is why he is getting a semi-pass.

So the question I now have for faust is whether he had a problem with ash giving a pass or if he had a problem with ash, in his opinion, characterizing Jimmmm's activity?

This is the one... it was kinda couched at the bottom of this so i don't blame you for missing it. If you want to answer that would be swell!

Well, ash was making a blanket statement that didn't really fit with my perception of Jimmmmm's play as scum. So when I started looking at the records, it was just a fact check. And it turns out that ash's statement was plainly wrong. So I pointed it out, partly to not have that wrong information on Jimmmmm's activity level stand there uncontradicted and partly to see how ash would react.

I'm not impressed by ash's reaction, I gotta say. He continued defending his statement instead of just admitting he was wrong. In fact, vote: ashersky seems better than yuma right now.

[yuma]

So I pointed it out, partly to not have that wrong information on Jimmmmm's activity level stand there uncontradicted and partly to see how ash would react.

this part could be true. but right now i don't think it is. i can't prove it obviously... but it is what i think, and what i think is that it is fabricated.

i get that people do things to get reactions out of people... but something as slight as contradicting a perceived posting meta of another player... just to get a reaction... nah... i just don't see anyone (faust included) have that level of stage setting as town

and then lo and behold... that reaction is now seen as scummy! yipee!

I am keeping my vote where it is

[ashersky]

WW corrected your research, which was presented in a way to make me seem wrong.  He added average posts and showed that in general, he posts at or more than the average as scum and less than average as town.

There are exceptions in both data sets, of course, which is why I called it a generalization.

But really, I'm right anyway.  Twice town has lost as a direct consequence of town Jimmmmm lurking too much -- the game where it was lylo and he missed the deadline to give raerae the win and the game where his lurking gave me the win as SK, again at lylo.

Name another towny so infamous for lurking.  And compare that to his scum games, where he's never missed a winning hammer.

So, my perception of Jimmmmm as a town lurker and a scum active player is founded on experience and evidence.

You "presenting" "evidence" was a ploy to paint me as scummy and you got called on it multiple times.  Now you are voting me to defend it as genuine.  I'm not buying it.  You are way smarter than that -- you know math and stats better than that.

[faust]

WW corrected your research, which was presented in a way to make me seem wrong.  He added average posts and showed that in general, he posts at or more than the average as scum and less than average as town.

There are exceptions in both data sets, of course, which is why I called it a generalization.

But really, I'm right anyway.  Twice town has lost as a direct consequence of town Jimmmmm lurking too much -- the game where it was lylo and he missed the deadline to give raerae the win and the game where his lurking gave me the win as SK, again at lylo.

Name another towny so infamous for lurking.  And compare that to his scum games, where he's never missed a winning hammer.

So, my perception of Jimmmmm as a town lurker and a scum active player is founded on experience and evidence.

You "presenting" "evidence" was a ploy to paint me as scummy and you got called on it multiple times.  Now you are voting me to defend it as genuine.  I'm not buying it.  You are way smarter than that -- you know math and stats better than that.

Other towny so infamous for lurking: EgorK

It seems we have to do the math. I thought it was clearly visible.

Out of the referenced town games, on average Jimmmmm posts 1.12 times more often than the average player. (excluding games where he died before D2)

Out of the referenced scum games, on average Jimmmmm posts 0.87 times less often than the average player. (excluding games where he died before D2)

Your statement is thus shown to be plain wrong. And even if the number were different, your original statement:

Jimmmmm because early game pass/doesn't actually lurk as scum ever.

was never correct to begin with.

[faust]

And missing deadlines != lurking.

[faust]

Let's stop these accusations right there.

I am the Universal Backup.

[chairs]

Woo, faust IC is great

[Hydrad]

whoa so we have a potential 3 IC's? thats so many!

[ashersky]

Woo, faust IC is great

We could have a counterclaim.  unvote until that happens.

[ashersky]

Other towny so infamous for lurking: EgorK

It seems we have to do the math. I thought it was clearly visible.

Out of the referenced town games, on average Jimmmmm posts 1.12 times more often than the average player. (excluding games where he died before D2)

Out of the referenced scum games, on average Jimmmmm posts 0.87 times less often than the average player. (excluding games where he died before D2)

Your statement is thus shown to be plain wrong. And even if the number were different, your original statement:

Jimmmmm because early game pass/doesn't actually lurk as scum ever.

was never correct to begin with.

EgorK may lurk, but he's not infamous for it.  You could also have named chairs, but again, it's never been so bad it's cost town a game.

Nice way to manipulate the stats to help your case.  As is always the case with stats, I guess.  How about you don't exclude games that don't help your argument?

[faust]

Nice way to manipulate the stats to help your case.  As is always the case with stats, I guess.  How about you don't exclude games that don't help your argument?

Out of the referenced town games, on average Jimmmmm posts 1.23 times more often than the average player.

Out of the referenced scum games, on average Jimmmmm posts 0.80 times less often than the average player.

Now I did not exclude any games. Obviously excluding games helped my argument a lot 

Why is it so hard for you to admit that you are wrong?

[faust]

I should not (yet) be considered IC by the way. Everyone who does that pays way too little attention to the setup. Which is especially weird from ashersky, who created the setup.

[ashersky]

Jimmmmm because early game pass/doesn't actually lurk as scum ever.

Let me consult the records for Jimmmmm scum games.

M18: 33 posts (okay, he was killed N1) 63.94 per player per player
M28: 43 posts, lynched D4 114.67 per player
M33: 112 posts, alive until the end   103.23 per player
M38: 114 posts, alive until the end 82.23 per player
M48: 59 posts, alive until the end 91.46 per playe

I don't think this qualifies as "Jimmmmm doesn't lurk as scum, ever".

this needs averages for context: see above...

Here is your research, given context by yuma.  You don't even list town games, by the way.  Another exclusionary tactic.  But anyway, if we exclude games based on your arbitrary lines, we get 2 over average and 2 under.  So that's 50% -- to be like you (pedantic), we're both wrong.

and further compared to his town games:

Jimmmmm (90) (94 per player)
Jimmmmm (313) (199.87 per player)
Jimmmmm (52) (81.67 per player) killednight1
Jimmmmm (246) (149.06 per player)
Jimmmmm (109) (142.31 per player)
Jimmmmm (248) (123.42 per player)
Jimmmmm (128) (121.23 per player)
Jimmmmm (103) (108.46 per player)
Jimmmmm (119) (40.17 per player)
Jimmmmm (118) (193.95 per player)
Jimmmmm (40) (66.33 per player) lynched day1
Jimmmmm (36) (37.78 per player)

Here is yuma's research showing Jimmmmm's town games.  He's again, 5/10 at being under/over the average.  So again, we're both wrong.

It seems, if you want to base the argument on these numbers, Jimmmm, in games lasting past N1, has a 50% chance of post more or less than the average per game.  Sounds...like nothing at all.

Instead, I'm basing my read on my experience, which is lurky-to-the-point-of-detrimental-Jimmmmm is ALWAYS town and posts-enough-to-destroy-faces-Jimmmmm is scum.

[ashersky]

Why is it so hard for you to admit that you are wrong?

You are acting like you've never played a game with me.

I'm not "wrong."  You are turning a subjective argument into an objective one.  It doesn't work that way.  I'm talking about perception, not statistics.

[ashersky]

I should not (yet) be considered IC by the way. Everyone who does that pays way too little attention to the setup. Which is especially weird from ashersky, who created the setup.

What?  I'm the one who pointed out that you are not an IC.

Woo, faust IC is great

We could have a counterclaim.  unvote until that happens.

The "...until that happens" portion of my post is pointing out that you are not confirmed to be town.

[faust]

This discussion is tiresome and not helping game progress. How about you choose another player to vote for now that you've unvoted me? That would actually help us move forward.

PPE 1

[faust]

I should not (yet) be considered IC by the way. Everyone who does that pays way too little attention to the setup. Which is especially weird from ashersky, who created the setup.

What?  I'm the one who pointed out that you are not an IC.

Woo, faust IC is great

We could have a counterclaim.  unvote until that happens.

The "...until that happens" portion of my post is pointing out that you are not confirmed to be town.

My point is that I could be lying even if there is no cunterclaim.

[ashersky]

This discussion is tiresome and not helping game progress. How about you choose another player to vote for now that you've unvoted me? That would actually help us move forward.

PPE 1

On this we can agree.

How about TA?  How do we feel about him?

vote: TA

[ashersky]

My point is that I could be lying even if there is no cunterclaim.

This is a hilarious (on a 5th grade level) typo, and should be your signature.

I think the UB would/should counterclaim you.  It's a 1 for 1 with scum, which is awesome, even if we mislynch the wrong one first.  There's zero reason not to counterclaim, and it's a terrible fake claim by scum.

[faust]

My point is that I could be lying even if there is no cunterclaim.

This is a hilarious (on a 5th grade level) typo, and should be your signature.

I think the UB would/should counterclaim you.  It's a 1 for 1 with scum, which is awesome, even if we mislynch the wrong one first.  There's zero reason not to counterclaim, and it's a terrible fake claim by scum.

No, no. Look at the setup. A single M means that the Universal Backup gets turned into a Mason without their knowledge. In that case there would be no UB. Now a Mason already claimed. There can only be Masons AND a UB if we have at least 3 Ms, i.e. at most 3 Ts. If the scum team is Godfather/Goon/Goon, they would know that there's only a single M and that they can safely claim UB.

[ashersky]

My point is that I could be lying even if there is no cunterclaim.

This is a hilarious (on a 5th grade level) typo, and should be your signature.

I think the UB would/should counterclaim you.  It's a 1 for 1 with scum, which is awesome, even if we mislynch the wrong one first.  There's zero reason not to counterclaim, and it's a terrible fake claim by scum.

No, no. Look at the setup. A single M means that the Universal Backup gets turned into a Mason without their knowledge. In that case there would be no UB. Now a Mason already claimed. There can only be Masons AND a UB if we have at least 3 Ms, i.e. at most 3 Ts. If the scum team is Godfather/Goon/Goon, they would know that there's only a single M and that they can safely claim UB.

Very true.

I was focused on the counterclaim, which definitely needs to happen if it exists.

The likelihood that it happens is lessened by the masons' existence, as you point out.

If you are lying based on the mason claim, you'll be caught when a mason dies and you don't join the other, though.  Good luck with that.

(Note, I think it's more likely you are town, anyway.  But you clearly thought this claim through, if it's fake.)

[yuma]

And I thought I had a really good day1 case there.  unvote

Well I think at this point the second mason should claim because a lack of claim would mean that one of Faust/gk is lying, yes? Plus three ic on day1 is great for narrowing the pool down by a lot!

[faust]

I think I still like vote: Twistedarcher. He's remarkably absent and the posts he has lack content.

[pingpongsam]

With the recent Faust claim I am near positive TA is scum. There has been nothing that guy has done that is townish at all. His only argument for voting me is my nonsensical play which I have demonstrated has sense and has actually propelled the game forward quite a bit. For proof just look at how many posts are looking at interactions to my opening plays, which was exactly the point. I was thinking it possible TA and Faust were scum partners but now I think TA is just scum and that my initial reads may have at least 2 of 3 scum team identified. My biggest counter argument to that bold claim is that I haven't already been crucified which means they are probably super happy with my current assertions.

[yuma]

Wow

[ashersky]

And I thought I had a really good day1 case there.  unvote

Well I think at this point the second mason should claim because a lack of claim would mean that one of Faust/gk is lying, yes? Plus three ic on day1 is great for narrowing the pool down by a lot!

I'll think about it.  Not sure yet if that's right.

Wow

You must have forgotten PPS's style.

[ashersky]

I think we have some underposters here that need a lookie-loo.

[Witherweaver]

I think I still like vote: Twistedarcher. He's remarkably absent and the posts he has lack content.

In his most recent scum games, TA has been remarkably nonabsent.  His play seems different here. 

[yuma]

And I thought I had a really good day1 case there.  unvote

Well I think at this point the second mason should claim because a lack of claim would mean that one of Faust/gk is lying, yes? Plus three ic on day1 is great for narrowing the pool down by a lot!

I'll think about it.  Not sure yet if that's right.

So my thought about it, which could certainly be wrong is this:

Mason Roles
M** = 1 Mason
MM = Innocent Child (Confirmed at start of Day 1)
MMM = 2 Masons
MMMM = 2 Masons; Innocent Child
MMMMM = 3 Masons
MMMMMM = 2 Masons; 2 Masons (i.e. two separate pairings)

** Single M rolls result in the Universal Backup converting to a Mason

here are the possibilities (assuming no counterclaim for faust):

we rolled 0 Ms. a second mason cannot claim because he doesn't exist. gkeirg is lying. faust is telling  the truth

we rolled 1 M. can't be possible we don't have an IC

we rolled 2 Ms. a second mason cannot claim because he doesnt' exist. gkeirg is lying. faust is telling the truth

we rolled 3 Ms. a second mason can claim, gkeirg is telling the truth, faust is telling the truth

we rolled 4 Ms. can't be possible we don't have an IC

we rolled 5+ Ms is the same as 3 Ms.

So I think it is most likely that we are in a MMM position just given that the claims from faust and gkeirg I think are riskier claims than scum would make--are relatively easy to be found out I think. But we can confirm that position by having a the second mason claim, if no one claims that role then at least one of gkeirg must be lying.

Did I get everything right?

[faust]

Mason Roles
M** = 1 Mason
MM = Innocent Child (Confirmed at start of Day 1)
MMM = 2 Masons
MMMM = 2 Masons; Innocent Child
MMMMM = 3 Masons
MMMMMM = 2 Masons; 2 Masons (i.e. two separate pairings)

[..]

we rolled 1 M. can't be possible we don't have an IC

we rolled 2 Ms. a second mason cannot claim because he doesnt' exist. gkeirg is lying. faust is telling the truth

Something is wrong here.

[faust]

if no one claims that role then at least one of gkeirg must be lying.

Oh my god, how will we manage to figure out which one it is? 

[faust]

I think I still like vote: Twistedarcher. He's remarkably absent and the posts he has lack content.

In his most recent scum games, TA has been remarkably nonabsent.  His play seems different here.

I don't know. TA is active as both town and scum from what I remember. Pure activity level probably doesn't tell us much here. My bigger problem is that he has not done anything this game except tunnel PPS.

[yuma]

Something is wrong here.

dangit... I made an edit somewhere that messed some stuff up...

lemme try again...

Mason Roles
M** = 1 Mason
MM = Innocent Child (Confirmed at start of Day 1)
MMM = 2 Masons
MMMM = 2 Masons; Innocent Child
MMMMM = 3 Masons
MMMMMM = 2 Masons; 2 Masons (i.e. two separate pairings)

here are the possibilities (assuming no counterclaim for faust):

we rolled 0 Ms. a second mason cannot claim because no masons actually exist. gkeirg is lying. faust is telling the truth

we rolled 1 M. faust is lying as a UB would have been converted to a mason.

we rolled 2 Ms. can't be possible we don't have an IC

we rolled 3 Ms. a second mason can claim, gkeirg is telling the truth, faust is telling the truth

we rolled 4 Ms. can't be possible we don't have an IC

we rolled 5+ Ms is the same as 3 Ms.

so again if I am reading this right (which obviously I am slightly struggling with... one handed typing with an infant is kinda hard...) , if no additional mason claims then one of faust/gkeirg must be lying.

thus I think it is worth it for a mason to claim because it will answer that question and also provide a third IC

any mistakes this time?

[Witherweaver]

Can scum actually know if we're in M or 3M?  Ah, yes, if it is Goon x2, then scum knows we cannot have more than 2 PR roles (else scum starts getting PRs), so it can only be 0M, 1M, 2M for Ms.  With Gkrieg claiming, it must be 1M with Universal Backup converted.  Then UB is a safe claim for scum.  This is what Faust pointed out before.

Well Faust/Ash are probably the only two players that would actually think/analyze enough to make that claim with that opportunity as scum.  Also, it would be done without consulting partners, since they couldn't know until Gkrieg claimed (unless they talked about a Mason claim in the scum QT ahead of time).  At any rate, I'm inclined to not lynch Faust.

Hydrad is still good.  Awaclus would be fine.  Yuma may be okay.  Chairs I have no opinion on.  TA I don't really have any opinion on, though the last two times I played with him he was scum, and he seems a little different. 

[yuma]

right, another mason doesn't necessarily "clear", although I would put a moderate amount of money on the claims being true just because of the risk and the timing of the claim...

but a complete lack of a second mason indicates someone is lying...

[Witherweaver]

I believe Gkrieg.  I probably believe Faust.

[ashersky]

right, another mason doesn't necessarily "clear", although I would put a moderate amount of money on the claims being true just because of the risk and the timing of the claim...

but a complete lack of a second mason indicates someone is lying...

If there were lack of a second Mason, you are right.  Could definitely be a timing thing.  I see a lot of value in waiting until closer to the end of the day.

[chairs]

Based on yuma's writeup, we need the second mason to claim or we need to absolutely lynch gkrieg or faust today.

[chairs]

I'm torn on which I believe more.

[yuma]

I'm torn on which I believe more.

i would say wait til later to figure out which if either cause odds are high we will have a mason claim i think at some point today... effort should be put into looking at other players until a lack of 2nd mason becomes more of a sure thing

[yuma]

and i am a fan of shorte day1s. ideally day will end in a few rl days, but thay may be hard given abscences o some players,

[ashersky]

Ideally it ends before the end of the work week.

[Twistedarcher]

Hey guys, can we put this into perspective? We're less than a week into the game. We're still not done D1. I'm sorry I don't have the scum team figured out, but we haven't had a single freaking flip yet! I'm still null half the player pool, and I don't know how anyone can be positive that another player is scum. Yes, I have a scum read on PPS, and yes, his blatant OMGUS is making it stronger, but come on, we're freaking halfway into the day.

This is really just reminding me of D1 of the last game I played with PPS (Diffusion of Power), where I have a scum read on him D1, he retaliates with a scum read on me, it gets bigger and bigger D1, he says that myself and Jimmm (town, who also votes PPS) are scum and focusing our entire scumplay D1 on basically trying to get PPS mislynched and it's our main objective. It's basically the exact same gameplay here -- scum is focusing on getting HIM mislynched, and anyone who wants to vote HIM is obviously scum trying to set up a mislynch -- there's no possibility people voting him could simply be mistaken town. Really, it's remarkably similar. Jimmmm, Yuma, Faust I know were in that game. Faust will probably disagree with me though, since he thought I was being ridiculous that game even though the entire spectator QT knew I was quite clearly town, and once again I think he would be mistaken town here.

 I thought Faust-Ash was town-town before Faust's claim, interestingly enough the claim actually makes me scummier on Faust than townier, but I don't think I'd want to lynch there today. I hadn't noticed how safe the claim was for scum until he pointed it out himself but he had definitely considered the consequences of the claim. Really, the claim doesn't make sense to me. He clearly went through the logic of the claim before claiming it. But the logic makes the claim less verifiable as town, right? And the point of claiming UB is that's an IC-like claim? So why would UB being less verifiable this game make you more likely to claim it? What does it accomplish if he's town at this point? Really I think it's nonsensical. Hey, just like his claim in Diffusion of Power! I keep having dιjΰ vu to that game, and my most likely guess is that PPS is scum and Faust is town, although I already feel like this is a game where I'm going to be at ends with Faust all game. Oh well.

Faust/Ash read townier to me, so I'm townier off of Ash based on that. I was ready for a 10 page back and forth that got absolutely nothing accomplished, and they're fighting over something that really doesn't matter. Yes I think Ash's characterization of Jimmmmm wasn't really true, but does it matter? You're giving him scum points for not backing down, but that's basically saying that town!Ash isn't stubborn, which is more wrong than Ash's mischaracterization from Jimmmmm.

Yuma is null for me, he hasn't done anything he wouldn't do as town or scum.

Hydrad is pretty null, maybe slightly town, but mostly because I didn't agree with the votes on him. Not that I thought he was towny, just that I didn't think anything was there.

WW gives me scum vibes, but I know I find his style of posting pretty empty and easy to do, which gives me scum vibes generally. Still I'd be OK lynching here. The quick, early D1 is something I recently did as scum too, when I knew the lynch wasn't going to go through. One thing though, I think his interaction with the PPS wagon makes it unlikely they're partners.

Awaclus is null, I disagree with like everything he says theory wise though. It's not so simple as to identify town players by "pro-town" play. Scum want to exhibit "pro-town" play as well, and some scum can be quite good at it!

Gkrieg not lynching, Faust not lynching (I am much much much more inclined to believe Gkrieg over Faust if I had to believe one though).

Still want to lynch PPS. Don't have any other reads I can think of.

[Twistedarcher]

Any thoughts on the town incentive for Faust's claim? I'm really not seeing it honestly, especially after the analysis Faust would have done pre-claim if he's town.

[Awaclus]

Awaclus is null, I disagree with like everything he says theory wise though. It's not so simple as to identify town players by "pro-town" play. Scum want to exhibit "pro-town" play as well, and some scum can be quite good at it!

That's not what I'm doing, I identify players by narratives. It's not trivial for scum to maintain a consistent town narrative.

[yuma]

Any thoughts on the town incentive for Faust's claim? I'm really not seeing it honestly, especially after the analysis Faust would have done pre-claim if he's town.

well here is what I am thinking... if faust is in fact the UB...

town had already had a semi-discussion about UB claiming. It really isn't a bad claim for town to make as right now he is likely to just inherit role of the first mason that dies (as they are claimed and scum knows who they are) and even if he didn't claim today he would the day after he obtained that role. So I think he claimed today knowing that it wouldn't do any harm and the good it would do would be to stop the lynch from moving onto him and allow discussion to move forward to other, non-UB options

But more importantly for me is the risk that he would take as claiming fake UB were a mason to die during the night. If a mason dies, he would inherit the role if he actually were the UB. But if he is faking, he wouldn't inherit it and the alive mason would know pretty quick. Of course if faust is fake claiming then mafia wouldn't shoot the masons for that exact reason... But the longer the masons are alive the better it is for town because of PoE and the more suspicious it would make us of faust. So that is a pretty big risk for faust to take and claim while not under pressure to claim...

So I am inclined to believe it, but like I said that is just me thinking on the surface. If we don't have another mason claim obviously we will need to go into it further because we will know one of gk and faust are lying and thus worthy of lynching today...

wait....

if another mason doesn't claim then it is obviously gkreig that is lying. cause there can't just be 1 solitary mason ever... why did I think it could implicate faust...?

[yuma]

Hey guys, can we put this into perspective? We're less than a week into the game. We're still not done D1. I'm sorry I don't have the scum team figured out, but we haven't had a single freaking flip yet! I'm still null half the player pool, and I don't know how anyone can be positive that another player is scum. Yes, I have a scum read on PPS, and yes, his blatant OMGUS is making it stronger, but come on, we're freaking halfway into the day.

This is really just reminding me of D1 of the last game I played with PPS (Diffusion of Power), where I have a scum read on him D1, he retaliates with a scum read on me, it gets bigger and bigger D1, he says that myself and Jimmm (town, who also votes PPS) are scum and focusing our entire scumplay D1 on basically trying to get PPS mislynched and it's our main objective. It's basically the exact same gameplay here -- scum is focusing on getting HIM mislynched, and anyone who wants to vote HIM is obviously scum trying to set up a mislynch -- there's no possibility people voting him could simply be mistaken town. Really, it's remarkably similar. Jimmmm, Yuma, Faust I know were in that game. Faust will probably disagree with me though, since he thought I was being ridiculous that game even though the entire spectator QT knew I was quite clearly town, and once again I think he would be mistaken town here.

I agree with a lot of this, not to say I don't agree with what came after, but this especially. The first paragraph is soooo how I feel and soooo the opposite of how apparently PPS feels.

And I agree that PPS is reminiscent of DoP, especially the HIM portion of it.

vote: pps

[Twistedarcher]

Awaclus is null, I disagree with like everything he says theory wise though. It's not so simple as to identify town players by "pro-town" play. Scum want to exhibit "pro-town" play as well, and some scum can be quite good at it!

That's not what I'm doing, I identify players by narratives. It's not trivial for scum to maintain a consistent town narrative.

Well, I disagree, but if that's how you want to scumhunt, more power to you. The problem is that most other people don't scumhunt this way, so saying "don't worry about reading me, I have a town narrative that will unfold" makes it incredibly difficult for other people to get an accurate read on you.

[Twistedarcher]

Actually re-reading Diffusion of Power now, it unfolded a bit differently than I remembered -- while PPS talked about how scum try to finger townies, and he was that towny, and he felt he was intentionally set up as a mislynch D1, he gave me a pass D1 and then fakeclaimed a cop read on me, so he wasn't ever interested in reaching him. Still though, I'll share my notes from that game (yes I keep notes from games I play!)

pingpongsam (mafia):
Very 'ME' focused. Read the game through the lens of what was happening to HIM. Lots of play focused on people voting him, rather than doing scumhunting. Not afraid to make big plays, not afraid to bus heavily (bussed D1 to L-1 late in the day). Need to identify if the 'ME' focus is a scum!PPS trait or just a PPS trait. Stick to your gut on him, it was correct.

[Witherweaver]

Oooh, what are your notes on me?!

[Twistedarcher]

Oooh, what are your notes on me?!

Secret. And there's this phenomenon where the more games I've played with a player, the less useful the notes are.

[Awaclus]

Well, I disagree, but if that's how you want to scumhunt, more power to you. The problem is that most other people don't scumhunt this way, so saying "don't worry about reading me, I have a town narrative that will unfold" makes it incredibly difficult for other people to get an accurate read on you.

How do most other people scumhunt, then? Aside from PR results, there's not much to go by other than the consistency of your town narrative.

[Twistedarcher]

#377, where PPS has a scum read on me (but not ironclad that I'm definitely scum or anything)

I was actually thinking Faust might be scum trying to appear connected to me so that if I flip first he looks town and if he flips first I am obvious next mislynch. TA is still reading scum to me.

#470, where PPS DOES have an ironclad scum read. Bolded is the same ME focus, where he thinks that scum would focus on his reads in particular. It's a weird argument that puts the people you're scum-reading into a bind. If they dispute his reads, they're scum trying to dissuade people from his reads! No one can be mistaken town, scum have to take a particular interest into his reads. When someone disagrees, they're not wrong, they're scum.

With the recent Faust claim I am near positive TA is scum. There has been nothing that guy has done that is townish at all. His only argument for voting me is my nonsensical play which I have demonstrated has sense and has actually propelled the game forward quite a bit. For proof just look at how many posts are looking at interactions to my opening plays, which was exactly the point. I was thinking it possible TA and Faust were scum partners but now I think TA is just scum and that my initial reads may have at least 2 of 3 scum team identified. My biggest counter argument to that bold claim is that I haven't already been crucified which means they are probably super happy with my current assertions.

#408, my only post between the two, which doesn't mention any new info on PPS.

I agree that Faust strikes me as townier this game, however that does nothing to dissuade me from voting PPS. Also townier on yuma

townier than which game?

Townier as opposed to scummier

Now, Faust's claim did happen between the two posts, but the reasons in #470 for voting me (nothing townish at all, arguments for voting me) don't really have a single thing to do with Faust's claim. It's more of the focus on what's happening to him rather than looking outside for other details on what's going on in the game. Why would town be so sure that someone voting them is scum than a mistaken towny? It makes less sense from a town narrative (alright Awaclus, you're right and I'm wrong ). It's blatant OMGUS veiled in reasons that don't necessarily make full sense from a town perspective.

[Twistedarcher]

It makes less sense from a town narrative

Any thoughts on the town incentive for Faust's claim?

OK, you may be correct, I take back my objection

[yuma]

scumslips, flip flopping, panicked response, omgusing, role fishing, sk hunting, scummy lurking, buddying, naval gazing, mirroring, over defensive, case inflating, "wrong reason-itis"

are a handful i can think of. not that scum always does, or that town isn't capable of doing so. but i have personally been part of lynches that caught people in nearly all of these

poe does help narrow down pools so there is a part of town narrative building at play, certainly...

[ashersky]

unvote

I don't think TA does that big post as scum.  Too much attention and he as a mini-wagon on him.  That's not his style.

I think we don't lynch from gkrieg/faust today, no matter what.  I'm still not convinced the second mason needs to claim yet.  Imagine a world...

--where the second mason stays hidden and this is a single M game, so there is no UB.  No way they can kill gkrieg, nor do they want to kill the other mason.  If the second mason claims, that ensures they don't hit either with an NK.  Instead, they'll want to kill from the pool of townies that can't confirm his lie -- so any other PR is best, as he can just say he inherited it and make crap up from there, but a VT is safe.  Now, instead, imagine a world...

--where the second mason stays hidden and this is a 3M+ game, so there is a UB.  We can't confirm that until a mason dies, which can be gkrieg at this point, since that's who scum could kill, force faust into that role, and the "extra" IC is taken out of the equation.  There are some reasons I can think of where that's actually the preferred route to confirming faust's towniness, which don't have to be spelled out.  I'm not sure how much value we get from knowing it's 3M+ vs single M.


So, I see an argument to be made to hold off on the second mason's claim if we think boxing in scum's options are better.  I think even at worst, it keeps a solitary quasi-IC alive in gkrieg who they can't kill until they can cover faust's claim, and at best we could force them into stumbling a bit. 

[ashersky]

On a town incentive for claiming UB...move discussion forward, get heat off of him and onto possible scum, call into question the mason claim...there are a few.

Do they outweigh holding off?  Dunno.  Too late now.

[Twistedarcher]

On a town incentive for claiming UB...move discussion forward, get heat off of him and onto possible scum, call into question the mason claim...there are a few.

Do they outweigh holding off?  Dunno.  Too late now.

I'm not looking to judge Faust's decision, I'm looking to use it as information to determine his alignment.

[Witherweaver]

unvote

I don't think TA does that big post as scum.  Too much attention and he as a mini-wagon on him.  That's not his style.

He did it in Mistborn, actually.  Got him a lot of town cred.

[ashersky]

unvote

I don't think TA does that big post as scum.  Too much attention and he as a mini-wagon on him.  That's not his style.

He did it in Mistborn, actually.  Got him a lot of town cred.

Did he?  I don't recall it specifically.

[Awaclus]

scumslips, flip flopping, panicked response, omgusing, role fishing, sk hunting, scummy lurking, buddying, naval gazing, mirroring, over defensive, case inflating, "wrong reason-itis"

Yeah, those are reasons to consider a town narrative weaker.

[yuma]

So, I see an argument to be made to hold off on the second mason's claim if we think boxing in scum's options are better.  I think even at worst, it keeps a solitary quasi-IC alive in gkrieg who they can't kill until they can cover faust's claim, and at best we could force them into stumbling a bit.

that is compelling but what we cant have happen is a day where we dont get a lynch happen until last few hours, have the mason claim (or worse get mislynched via derp), and then not be able to get a lynch through and time out...

[Twistedarcher]

unvote

I don't think TA does that big post as scum.  Too much attention and he as a mini-wagon on him.  That's not his style.

He did it in Mistborn, actually.  Got him a lot of town cred.

Did he?  I don't recall it specifically.

Yeah I did, towards the end of D1.

[yuma]

scumslips, flip flopping, panicked response, omgusing, role fishing, sk hunting, scummy lurking, buddying, naval gazing, mirroring, over defensive, case inflating, "wrong reason-itis"

Yeah, those are reasons to consider a town narrative weaker.

si you just have a fancier name for it then? good for you...

[ashersky]

So, I see an argument to be made to hold off on the second mason's claim if we think boxing in scum's options are better.  I think even at worst, it keeps a solitary quasi-IC alive in gkrieg who they can't kill until they can cover faust's claim, and at best we could force them into stumbling a bit.

that is compelling but what we cant have happen is a day where we dont get a lynch happen until last few hours, have the mason claim (or worse get mislynched via derp), and then not be able to get a lynch through and time out...

Fair enough.  I think it's safe to say if the mason is a real lynch target at any point in a way that could mess up the end of day, he should claim to ensure we have enough time to figure things out.

[Witherweaver]

scumslips, flip flopping, panicked response, omgusing, role fishing, sk hunting, scummy lurking, buddying, naval gazing, mirroring, over defensive, case inflating, "wrong reason-itis"

Yeah, those are reasons to consider a town narrative weaker.

si you just have a fancier name for it then? good for you...

Haha.  Welcome to talking with Awaclus.  Eventually you'll come around to my line of thinking, where it's easier to just lynch him.

[Twistedarcher]

scumslips, flip flopping, panicked response, omgusing, role fishing, sk hunting, scummy lurking, buddying, naval gazing, mirroring, over defensive, case inflating, "wrong reason-itis"

Yeah, those are reasons to consider a town narrative weaker.

Awaclus I think the issue is that your gameplay so far this game is generating absolutely no reason to give you a town (or scum) narrative. You haven't contributed at all beyond theory. Just went back and re-read your posts, there was nothing there.

While you have plently of material to use on other players, we have no material to use on you, which is a major issue. You need to get reads, votes, interactions out there so other players can effectively determine your alignment.

Right now, you haven't. As town, you want people to be able to identify your alignment so they don't mislynch you. As scum, you don't want people to identify your alignment. Right now, your lack of information/interactions is putting you much closer to the scum narrative than the town narrative.

Don't worry though, if you're town, you'll fix this. If you're scum, you won't, and we'll lynch you for it eventually.

[Witherweaver]

Awaclus' scum narrative is trivial as a simple artifact of his play style. 

[ashersky]

While you have plently of material to use on other players, we have no material to use on you, which is a major issue. You need to get reads, votes, interactions out there so other players can effectively determine your alignment.

This is his thing, the entirety of his thing.  He ensures there's nothing about him to highlight.  It's become the only thing to highlight.

[Awaclus]

Awaclus I think the issue is that your gameplay so far this game is generating absolutely no reason to give you a town (or scum) narrative. You haven't contributed at all beyond theory. Just went back and re-read your posts, there was nothing there.

While you have plently of material to use on other players, we have no material to use on you, which is a major issue. You need to get reads, votes, interactions out there so other players can effectively determine your alignment.

Right now, you haven't. As town, you want people to be able to identify your alignment so they don't mislynch you. As scum, you don't want people to identify your alignment. Right now, your lack of information/interactions is putting you much closer to the scum narrative than the town narrative.

That is true, but it's because other games and other stuff has been requiring a lot of my attention lately. I'll pay more attention to this game probably later D1.

[Witherweaver]

While you have plently of material to use on other players, we have no material to use on you, which is a major issue. You need to get reads, votes, interactions out there so other players can effectively determine your alignment.

This is his thing, the entirety of his thing.  He ensures there's nothing about him to highlight.  It's become the only thing to highlight.

Fortunately, there is always a way to find out his alignment.

[yuma]

While you have plently of material to use on other players, we have no material to use on you, which is a major issue. You need to get reads, votes, interactions out there so other players can effectively determine your alignment.

This is his thing, the entirety of his thing.  He ensures there's nothing about him to highlight.  It's become the only thing to highlight.

so lets make him be a highlight..

awaclus: why aren't you voting for pps?

[Awaclus]

While you have plently of material to use on other players, we have no material to use on you, which is a major issue. You need to get reads, votes, interactions out there so other players can effectively determine your alignment.

This is his thing, the entirety of his thing.  He ensures there's nothing about him to highlight.  It's become the only thing to highlight.

That is not true. I do participate in theory talk, vote for people, and accuse them of being scum.

[Awaclus]

awaclus: why aren't you voting for pps?

Because

other games and other stuff has been requiring a lot of my attention lately

[Witherweaver]

I like this game.

Vote: Awaclus

[Twistedarcher]

I like this game.

Vote: Awaclus

This seems closer to a policy vote and not related to anything that's happening in the game. I find his play a bit frustrating too, but I think you can do better than this

[Witherweaver]

I like this game.

Vote: Awaclus

This seems closer to a policy vote and not related to anything that's happening in the game. I find his play a bit frustrating too, but I think you can do better than this

Can't do better if he's scum!

[yuma]

I like this game.

Vote: Awaclus

This seems closer to a policy vote and not related to anything that's happening in the game. I find his play a bit frustrating too, but I think you can do better than this

this mild objection along with this:

Don't worry though, if you're town, you'll fix this. If you're scum, you won't, and we'll lynch you for it eventually.

what could be signaling, makes me think that on the chance ta or awaclus flip mafia they could be scummates... not that i am necessarily saying they are scum as i think ta is leaning a bit more town and awaclus is right in the null zone, but more to put in a reminder to look at them for a later day if one is to flip...

[Twistedarcher]

I like this game.

Vote: Awaclus

This seems closer to a policy vote and not related to anything that's happening in the game. I find his play a bit frustrating too, but I think you can do better than this

this mild objection along with this:

Don't worry though, if you're town, you'll fix this. If you're scum, you won't, and we'll lynch you for it eventually.

what could be signaling, makes me think that on the chance ta or awaclus flip mafia they could be scummates... not that i am necessarily saying they are scum as i think ta is leaning a bit more town and awaclus is right in the null zone, but more to put in a reminder to look at them for a later day if one is to flip...

Oh come on, give me more credit than that.

[Witherweaver]

I like this game.

Vote: Awaclus

This seems closer to a policy vote and not related to anything that's happening in the game. I find his play a bit frustrating too, but I think you can do better than this

this mild objection along with this:

Don't worry though, if you're town, you'll fix this. If you're scum, you won't, and we'll lynch you for it eventually.

what could be signaling, makes me think that on the chance ta or awaclus flip mafia they could be scummates... not that i am necessarily saying they are scum as i think ta is leaning a bit more town and awaclus is right in the null zone, but more to put in a reminder to look at them for a later day if one is to flip...

Oh come on, give me more credit than that.

You can debase that argument, just lynch Awaclus!

[Hydrad]

I feel like we should really have gkrieg at somepoint do the flavor name death to say who his partner is at least. Or have his partner claim while hes alive.

I'm just going to be annoyed if when gkrieg dies we won't be able to confirm the mason.

Although with faust being a UB unless hes scum he will be able to confirm the other mason... so maybe its not needed?

hmm interesting. Now I'm not sure whats best here since if faust is scum he will have to link himself to another scum to pull the claim off which is awesome for us.

[gkrieg13]

unvote

I don't think TA does that big post as scum.  Too much attention and he as a mini-wagon on him.  That's not his style.

He did it in Mistborn, actually.  Got him a lot of town cred.

This was the reason I switched my vig shot from him at the end

[yuma]

so this day has been kinda weird... at least for me i have been gone for a year so maybe this is the new normal... but we really haven't had any L-1, L-2 wagons to speak of, which for me is a key analysis tool, especially day1.

i think a large part of that is due to having four players basically be absentee voters in jimmmmm, uos, chairs and awalcus. this isn't a criticism of them necessarily as some have just been unable to post and others have a way of playing that is low in posting/voting amounts... which is fine...

but i am wondering if there is a way to still do wagon analysis but on ones that have hit L-3, L-4, given the missing four votes or is the wagon size so dependent upon the needed to lynch number?

I don't want to sit down and do the work if people don't think it will be useful...

[yuma]

so i thought i would go look at pps in a town role to see if i could see the same amount of what i will, "self-absorption" and didn't really see as much, at least not until he actually was the focal point of interest day3 when he was mislynched, but when the pressure was casual and light. there was a moment early day3 where pps was confident (without any proof, but with some reasonable level of suspicion) that the recently deceased cop had investigated him the night before...

but more importantly i found this:

So, here's a question, is anybody even going to listen to me or should I just hammer myself now?  There was no sarcasm there.  I'm not going to waste my time if you're not going to listen.

Oh boo hoo, we've got a victim. This is practically always a scumtell and even if it isn't nobody wants someone around who won't play their wincon.

What you are dong here is also practically always a scumtell as well...

Interesting, I caught quite a bit of this in Diffusion of Power and guess who was scum there? Playing the why is everyone ganging up on me/tunneling me card is an emotional ploy regardless of alignment. Being a game of logical deduction emotional ploys become smokescreens. Argue the case, make your own or die trying.

where pps is talking about how he did this--this being overly concerned with the amount of suspicion he was receiving and publicly complaining about it-- in DoP, the game TA referenced and admits that he has used real emotion in this regard as a scum smokescreen...

[chairs]

vote: pps

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.3

Awaclus (1): Witherweaver
ashersky (1): Hydrad
pingpongsam (3): Twistedarcher, yuma, chairs
Twistedarcher (2): pingpongsam, faust
Hydrad (1): gkrieg13

Not Voting (4): Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, Jimmmmm, ashersky

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 21, 3 PM forum time.

[pingpongsam]

When I flip please kill TA. Vote: pps

[faust]

I see there has been discussion about my claim. I can walk you through my thought process if you like.

So I assume the mason claim is truthful. I.e. we have 3 Ms. There may be other roles. If there are, then scum has a full strongman. It may be worth the gambit for them to keep the masons alive to shoot for more dangerous PRs. Now they either have to leave 3 potential ICs alive or give us a potential investigative result.

Second, should the Mason claim be a lie, my claim may in the end help us to figure that out, because 3 Ms is a lot to put into the equation.

Third, I knew the claim wasn't completely safe, so dropping it at a later point might lead people to assume it was fake and lynch me anyway. I thought getting it out earlier would leave me enough time to explain why it's not a fake claim and also make it clear I was not just trying to safe myself for another day.

So I was on the fence about claiming with all that already. Then ash and yuma started pushing my wagon, and I thought PPS was on it too. That was pretty much to go against. I thought I might not get out of this anyway without claiming, and decided to save the time.

[faust]

When I flip please kill TA. Vote: pps

I was going to write up a lengthy defense of you and my reasons for scumreading TA. Oh well.

Vote: PPS

[yuma]

When I flip please kill TA. Vote: pps

are you talking to town or scumbuddies?

and on a serious note it is hard to take you seriously when you self vote, it invalidates anything else you have to say... so honestly if you do flip town your opinion on ta won't influence me at all because if you are willing to think self voting is a good idea... who can trust anything else you have to say...?

[yuma]

When I flip please kill TA. Vote: pps

I was going to write up a lengthy defense of you and my reasons for scumreading TA. Oh well.

Vote: PPS

I personally would still be interested in a short, summarized version if you feel that would be worth your time

[pingpongsam]

TA makes a valid case regardless if he is scum or town. The fact is he has tunneled me from the beginning. It might be easy to say I have tunneled him but that is not the case. I have continually looked at other possibilities and strongly insinuated how I feel on other people's potential scum alignment. Along the way I have reviewed TA's progression and it has always read as scum to me.

He presents a case I can't argue with so the easiest thing to do is prove my flip as town. If he is town I think he would be looking at other options and not tunneling so much. I believe I was selected early on as a strong contender for scum targeting and TA is pushing that agenda. As scum it is really not smart to do this because my flips shows him as likely scum so the campaign has to be to diminish that possibility now much as Yuma is doing.

Tldr I think TA is scum but that vote clearly won't carry so the next best thing is to follow his vote on me so that my flip reveals his true intentions.

Besides, TA's case on me states that I bus heavily as scum. Clearly he knows I will flip town or else he is proven to be my scum partner were I to flip otherwise. I feel we are both kind of deadlocked into our current positions.

[pingpongsam]

I believe I was targeted because my history shows that I am very weak early game and get stronger as the game progresses. Scum want me dead ASAP, especially if I have already successfully identified some of them which I think I have.

[pingpongsam]

Finally, my play style as either alignment is very centered around what is directed towards me. This is no scum tell and Yuma suggesting that it is not the case in other games where I was town is disingenuous.

[pingpongsam]

Obviously I am scum because I got on the PPS wagon at the most opportune times. First I cast suspicion on him from the very beginning then got off when he got to L-2 and now that someone else is leading the charge I got on in the middle of the wagon where it's safest to hide.

[pingpongsam]

One other idea. If TA drops his campaign on me for today I will also go in a different direction. As it is, the majority opinion seems to be we want D1 over and an informative flip so I am offering that in the most expedient way.

[ashersky]

Vote: pps

This is L-1.  This is distracting.  Was I like this?  (am I?)

[faust]

When I flip please kill TA. Vote: pps

are you talking to town or scumbuddies?

and on a serious note it is hard to take you seriously when you self vote, it invalidates anything else you have to say... so honestly if you do flip town your opinion on ta won't influence me at all because if you are willing to think self voting is a good idea... who can trust anything else you have to say...?

+1

[faust]

When I flip please kill TA. Vote: pps

I was going to write up a lengthy defense of you and my reasons for scumreading TA. Oh well.

Vote: PPS

I personally would still be interested in a short, summarized version if you feel that would be worth your time

Well, short version is I felt like scum!PPS would not keep so close to his scum-meta that several players here still have very present. Him playing like that means it's just his normal meta (I don't actually recall playing a game with PPS where he was town).

TA's response after getting some pressure felt much like the one he had in that one game where we caught him D1. I'm not exactly sure which one it is, but I think I got the MVP, some that narrows it down.

[faust]

Vote: pps

This is L-1.  This is distracting.  Was I like this?  (am I?)

I don't think you're like that. YOu get frustrated (or fake-frustrated) and emotional. PPS actually tries to convince us that it's best play for him to self-vote. Which is bullshit.

[Witherweaver]

I'd do TA above PPS.

Hydrad still looks scummy as well.

[yuma]

Finally, my play style as either alignment is very centered around what is directed towards me. This is no scum tell and Yuma suggesting that it is not the case in other games where I was town is disingenuous.

how can it be disingenuous where I actually looked at the game (adventure time) and reported what I actually saw? Like I said there was one moment where you were convinced the cop had investigated you, but other than that, you weren't very "ME" focused that game as town. It is what it is. It isn't like I made up all of those posts for you or erased posts where you were "ME" focused.

[Awaclus]

Okay, I caught up with this game.

PPS should stop self-voting. TA doesn't really look all that scummy to me. Hydrad is null.

[yuma]

so do we want to lynch w/o hearing from uos/jimmm like at all? I am kinda at the point where I don't think we will get much from them today regardless and I actually kinda like the wifom situation that puts mafia in (assuming uos and jimmmm aren't mafia of course) so I think I am ok with it...

[Awaclus]

so do we want to lynch w/o hearing from uos/jimmm like at all? I am kinda at the point where I don't think we will get much from them today regardless and I actually kinda like the wifom situation that puts mafia in (assuming uos and jimmmm aren't mafia of course) so I think I am ok with it...

I don't think we can assume that UoS and Jimmmm aren't mafia.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, I caught up with this game.

PPS should stop self-voting. TA doesn't really look all that scummy to me. Hydrad is null.

As useful as I expected.

[Witherweaver]

so do we want to lynch w/o hearing from uos/jimmm like at all? I am kinda at the point where I don't think we will get much from them today regardless and I actually kinda like the wifom situation that puts mafia in (assuming uos and jimmmm aren't mafia of course) so I think I am ok with it...

What WIFOM situation?  Is this also assuming PPS is Mafia?

[yuma]

so do we want to lynch w/o hearing from uos/jimmm like at all? I am kinda at the point where I don't think we will get much from them today regardless and I actually kinda like the wifom situation that puts mafia in (assuming uos and jimmmm aren't mafia of course) so I think I am ok with it...

What WIFOM situation?  Is this also assuming PPS is Mafia?

meaning that neither player has given any sort of read on anyone... if Jimmm/UoS are in fact town, mafia has absolutely no idea as to where they stand on them, reading townie or mafia. Now, mafia does have other reasons to NK people (PR hunting, mason targeting, etc), but this setup is a bit complicated in that regard... but generally suspicion is a pretty good reason to NK someone, but in this case mafia just doesn't have that information.

Plus both Jimmmmm and UoS are really good players when fully active, which RL situations have denied them... and under normal circumstances could be viable NK or mafia PR targets (if they have them)

Mostly it is another decision point for mafia to force them to make without much information and that is an other point where they could make a mistake and I like that...

I don't think PPS's alignment matters too much in this regard

[Witherweaver]

I really don't have any scum impression from PPS.  I don't remember if I ever played a game with scum!PPS, but he seems a lot like he usually does (as town).  It could just be his play style.

[Twistedarcher]

TA makes a valid case regardless if he is scum or town. The fact is he has tunneled me from the beginning. It might be easy to say I have tunneled him but that is not the case. I have continually looked at other possibilities and strongly insinuated how I feel on other people's potential scum alignment. Along the way I have reviewed TA's progression and it has always read as scum to me.

He presents a case I can't argue with so the easiest thing to do is prove my flip as town. If he is town I think he would be looking at other options and not tunneling so much. I believe I was selected early on as a strong contender for scum targeting and TA is pushing that agenda. As scum it is really not smart to do this because my flips shows him as likely scum so the campaign has to be to diminish that possibility now much as Yuma is doing.

Tldr I think TA is scum but that vote clearly won't carry so the next best thing is to follow his vote on me so that my flip reveals his true intentions.

Besides, TA's case on me states that I bus heavily as scum. Clearly he knows I will flip town or else he is proven to be my scum partner were I to flip otherwise. I feel we are both kind of deadlocked into our current positions.

If you're really town, and me pushing you as scum would be 'stupid', why do you think I'm scum over town? Are you being inconsistent or do you really think that poorly of my play?

[Twistedarcher]

TA makes a valid case regardless if he is scum or town. The fact is he has tunneled me from the beginning. It might be easy to say I have tunneled him but that is not the case. I have continually looked at other possibilities and strongly insinuated how I feel on other people's potential scum alignment. Along the way I have reviewed TA's progression and it has always read as scum to me.

He presents a case I can't argue with so the easiest thing to do is prove my flip as town. If he is town I think he would be looking at other options and not tunneling so much. I believe I was selected early on as a strong contender for scum targeting and TA is pushing that agenda. As scum it is really not smart to do this because my flips shows him as likely scum so the campaign has to be to diminish that possibility now much as Yuma is doing.

Tldr I think TA is scum but that vote clearly won't carry so the next best thing is to follow his vote on me so that my flip reveals his true intentions.

Besides, TA's case on me states that I bus heavily as scum. Clearly he knows I will flip town or else he is proven to be my scum partner were I to flip otherwise. I feel we are both kind of deadlocked into our current positions.

From my experience this never ever ever happens. Scum want to be flexible, not to arbitrarily pick a mislynch.

[ashersky]

PPS, if you really want to convince folks that TA is scum, you are not doing it the right way.

You are right, if you flip town, we'll know you were sincere.  We won't know if you were right.

[pingpongsam]

TA makes a valid case regardless if he is scum or town. The fact is he has tunneled me from the beginning. It might be easy to say I have tunneled him but that is not the case. I have continually looked at other possibilities and strongly insinuated how I feel on other people's potential scum alignment. Along the way I have reviewed TA's progression and it has always read as scum to me.

He presents a case I can't argue with so the easiest thing to do is prove my flip as town. If he is town I think he would be looking at other options and not tunneling so much. I believe I was selected early on as a strong contender for scum targeting and TA is pushing that agenda. As scum it is really not smart to do this because my flips shows him as likely scum so the campaign has to be to diminish that possibility now much as Yuma is doing.

Tldr I think TA is scum but that vote clearly won't carry so the next best thing is to follow his vote on me so that my flip reveals his true intentions.

Besides, TA's case on me states that I bus heavily as scum. Clearly he knows I will flip town or else he is proven to be my scum partner were I to flip otherwise. I feel we are both kind of deadlocked into our current positions.

If you're really town, and me pushing you as scum would be 'stupid', why do you think I'm scum over town? Are you being inconsistent or do you really think that poorly of my play?

Yes, I think you are playing terribly as scum and am appalled that no one but Faust sees it.

[pingpongsam]

TA makes a valid case regardless if he is scum or town. The fact is he has tunneled me from the beginning. It might be easy to say I have tunneled him but that is not the case. I have continually looked at other possibilities and strongly insinuated how I feel on other people's potential scum alignment. Along the way I have reviewed TA's progression and it has always read as scum to me.

He presents a case I can't argue with so the easiest thing to do is prove my flip as town. If he is town I think he would be looking at other options and not tunneling so much. I believe I was selected early on as a strong contender for scum targeting and TA is pushing that agenda. As scum it is really not smart to do this because my flips shows him as likely scum so the campaign has to be to diminish that possibility now much as Yuma is doing.

Tldr I think TA is scum but that vote clearly won't carry so the next best thing is to follow his vote on me so that my flip reveals his true intentions.

Besides, TA's case on me states that I bus heavily as scum. Clearly he knows I will flip town or else he is proven to be my scum partner were I to flip otherwise. I feel we are both kind of deadlocked into our current positions.

From my experience this never ever ever happens. Scum want to be flexible, not to arbitrarily pick a mislynch.

In my experience we have done exactly this, picked a player we wanted dead asap.

[Twistedarcher]

TA makes a valid case regardless if he is scum or town. The fact is he has tunneled me from the beginning. It might be easy to say I have tunneled him but that is not the case. I have continually looked at other possibilities and strongly insinuated how I feel on other people's potential scum alignment. Along the way I have reviewed TA's progression and it has always read as scum to me.

He presents a case I can't argue with so the easiest thing to do is prove my flip as town. If he is town I think he would be looking at other options and not tunneling so much. I believe I was selected early on as a strong contender for scum targeting and TA is pushing that agenda. As scum it is really not smart to do this because my flips shows him as likely scum so the campaign has to be to diminish that possibility now much as Yuma is doing.

Tldr I think TA is scum but that vote clearly won't carry so the next best thing is to follow his vote on me so that my flip reveals his true intentions.

Besides, TA's case on me states that I bus heavily as scum. Clearly he knows I will flip town or else he is proven to be my scum partner were I to flip otherwise. I feel we are both kind of deadlocked into our current positions.

If you're really town, and me pushing you as scum would be 'stupid', why do you think I'm scum over town? Are you being inconsistent or do you really think that poorly of my play?

Yes, I think you are playing terribly as scum and am appalled that no one but Faust sees it.

Well now you're not only wrong but you're demeaning my play, I expect an apology after the game

[pingpongsam]

PPS, if you really want to convince folks that TA is scum, you are not doing it the right way.

You are right, if you flip town, we'll know you were sincere.  We won't know if you were right.

I can sympathize but I don't see a solid alternative. I sincerely think TA is scum.
My opening play succeeded from my perspective in drawing out valuable interaction. I concede that value is distorted for other players, so much so my own credibility is shot. The only credible thing I can do is flip town and then at least my reads become fully credible.

You can discover if I am right by flipping TA next. As I understand it, we can't do it in reverse order. Besides the trap has already been set if TA is scum, he has made it plain that I am a buster (because I am) and so I am the logical next lynch should he flip scum and the logical next lynch should he flip town. So, the order of operations becomes moot.

[Witherweaver]

TA makes a valid case regardless if he is scum or town. The fact is he has tunneled me from the beginning. It might be easy to say I have tunneled him but that is not the case. I have continually looked at other possibilities and strongly insinuated how I feel on other people's potential scum alignment. Along the way I have reviewed TA's progression and it has always read as scum to me.

He presents a case I can't argue with so the easiest thing to do is prove my flip as town. If he is town I think he would be looking at other options and not tunneling so much. I believe I was selected early on as a strong contender for scum targeting and TA is pushing that agenda. As scum it is really not smart to do this because my flips shows him as likely scum so the campaign has to be to diminish that possibility now much as Yuma is doing.

Tldr I think TA is scum but that vote clearly won't carry so the next best thing is to follow his vote on me so that my flip reveals his true intentions.

Besides, TA's case on me states that I bus heavily as scum. Clearly he knows I will flip town or else he is proven to be my scum partner were I to flip otherwise. I feel we are both kind of deadlocked into our current positions.

If you're really town, and me pushing you as scum would be 'stupid', why do you think I'm scum over town? Are you being inconsistent or do you really think that poorly of my play?

Yes, I think you are playing terribly as scum and am appalled that no one but Faust sees it.

Well now you're not only wrong but you're demeaning my play, I expect an apology after the game

He's only offending if you're actually Town

[pingpongsam]

TA makes a valid case regardless if he is scum or town. The fact is he has tunneled me from the beginning. It might be easy to say I have tunneled him but that is not the case. I have continually looked at other possibilities and strongly insinuated how I feel on other people's potential scum alignment. Along the way I have reviewed TA's progression and it has always read as scum to me.

He presents a case I can't argue with so the easiest thing to do is prove my flip as town. If he is town I think he would be looking at other options and not tunneling so much. I believe I was selected early on as a strong contender for scum targeting and TA is pushing that agenda. As scum it is really not smart to do this because my flips shows him as likely scum so the campaign has to be to diminish that possibility now much as Yuma is doing.

Tldr I think TA is scum but that vote clearly won't carry so the next best thing is to follow his vote on me so that my flip reveals his true intentions.

Besides, TA's case on me states that I bus heavily as scum. Clearly he knows I will flip town or else he is proven to be my scum partner were I to flip otherwise. I feel we are both kind of deadlocked into our current positions.

If you're really town, and me pushing you as scum would be 'stupid', why do you think I'm scum over town? Are you being inconsistent or do you really think that poorly of my play?

Yes, I think you are playing terribly as scum and am appalled that no one but Faust sees it.

Well now you're not only wrong but you're demeaning my play, I expect an apology after the game

So, then, you admit you are scum, otherwise no apology needed.

[Witherweaver]

PPS, if you really want to convince folks that TA is scum, you are not doing it the right way.

You are right, if you flip town, we'll know you were sincere.  We won't know if you were right.

I can sympathize but I don't see a solid alternative. I sincerely think TA is scum.
My opening play succeeded from my perspective in drawing out valuable interaction. I concede that value is distorted for other players, so much so my own credibility is shot. The only credible thing I can do is flip town and then at least my reads become fully credible.

You can discover if I am right by flipping TA next. As I understand it, we can't do it in reverse order. Besides the trap has already been set if TA is scum, he has made it plain that I am a buster (because I am) and so I am the logical next lynch should he flip scum and the logical next lynch should he flip town. So, the order of operations becomes moot.

Martyrdom is banal.  This isn't "the only thing you can do".  The other thing you can do is continue to play; you're not set as the lynch yet.

[pingpongsam]

PPS, if you really want to convince folks that TA is scum, you are not doing it the right way.

You are right, if you flip town, we'll know you were sincere.  We won't know if you were right.

I can sympathize but I don't see a solid alternative. I sincerely think TA is scum.
My opening play succeeded from my perspective in drawing out valuable interaction. I concede that value is distorted for other players, so much so my own credibility is shot. The only credible thing I can do is flip town and then at least my reads become fully credible.

You can discover if I am right by flipping TA next. As I understand it, we can't do it in reverse order. Besides the trap has already been set if TA is scum, he has made it plain that I am a buster (because I am) and so I am the logical next lynch should he flip scum and the logical next lynch should he flip town. So, the order of operations becomes moot.

*Busser

[pingpongsam]

PPS, if you really want to convince folks that TA is scum, you are not doing it the right way.

You are right, if you flip town, we'll know you were sincere.  We won't know if you were right.

I can sympathize but I don't see a solid alternative. I sincerely think TA is scum.
My opening play succeeded from my perspective in drawing out valuable interaction. I concede that value is distorted for other players, so much so my own credibility is shot. The only credible thing I can do is flip town and then at least my reads become fully credible.

You can discover if I am right by flipping TA next. As I understand it, we can't do it in reverse order. Besides the trap has already been set if TA is scum, he has made it plain that I am a buster (because I am) and so I am the logical next lynch should he flip scum and the logical next lynch should he flip town. So, the order of operations becomes moot.

Martyrdom is banal.  This isn't "the only thing you can do".  The other thing you can do is continue to play; you're not set as the lynch yet.

You misquote me, sure there are other things I can do but none of them strike me as solid alternatives.

[pingpongsam]

I was pontificating on policy voting which on some items I agree with (lurkers mostly). Ostensibly policy votes are to dissuade behavior but if they are not effective at dissuading he behavior then are they even policy votes or scum manipulation tools or just excuses to have a vote somewhere? I see other people having better things to do than punish me for self voting but I'm betting they don't see any solid alternatives either.

[pingpongsam]

Effectively I'm being told several people don't like how I play the game. Deity having a better than average track record as either alignment my play style is punished. At some point I'm either banned for playing or auto lynched D1 for being present in the game. The only other alternative is for me to assimilate a dictated play style.

[pingpongsam]

Effectively I'm being told several people don't like how I play the game. Deity having a better than average track record as either alignment my play style is punished. At some point I'm either banned for playing or auto lynched D1 for being present in the game. The only other alternative is for me to assimilate a dictated play style.

Despite, not deity. Autocorrect is on a roll today.

[Witherweaver]

So let's say both you and TA are town.  What would your analysis be conditional on that?  I.e., who is scum?

[pingpongsam]

So let's say both you and TA are town.  What would your analysis be conditional on that?  I.e., who is scum?

Definitely hydrad. Not only did I read him scum from early on but now that my wagon looks sealed he is already cultivating the next one. He is purposely staying off a wagon he knows is town and cooking up the next victim.

[Witherweaver]

Cool, let's lynch Hydrad

Vote: Hydrad

[pingpongsam]

Cool, let's lynch Hydrad

Vote: Hydrad

Because PPS says so or what?

[Witherweaver]

Because I agree he's scummy.

[ashersky]

Because I agree he's scummy.

I could buy this.  But then, we always say he's scummy.

[ashersky]

For what it's worth, PPS does exactly this when he's town.

But it's also something easily replicated as scum.

Such is the thing with established metas.

[pingpongsam]

For what it's worth, PPS does exactly this when he's town.

But it's also something easily replicated as scum.

Such is the thing with established metas.

I would say that self voting has to be the riskiest and least rewarding scum play. Granted, if someone is going to do it it would be me so, touchι. Personally, I don't see it as bad town play, I think it has a lot more merit than people want to give it. It is sort of one way, though. Do you think I can back out of it now and not lose all credibility?

[pingpongsam]

I can offer this, if I survive beyond D1 I promise not to self-vote for the remainder of the game. If that looks scummy to say, so be it. I think it should satisfy the policy voters though.

[ashersky]

For what it's worth, PPS does exactly this when he's town.

But it's also something easily replicated as scum.

Such is the thing with established metas.

I would say that self voting has to be the riskiest and least rewarding scum play. Granted, if someone is going to do it it would be me so, touchι. Personally, I don't see it as bad town play, I think it has a lot more merit than people want to give it. It is sort of one way, though. Do you think I can back out of it now and not lose all credibility?

You are sort of preaching to the choir here -- I'm probably the most famous self-voter around.  For a long time, it was only as town, and then it worked once when I was scum, then it was all over.

But, more to your point, I think, is that I do think there are times when it is in the best interest of town to get yourself lynched.  That's a minority view, though.  If you go back to M20, I think (Monks and Masons), Eevee and I had this argument.

That said, it's been like three years of mafia since then, and I've come around a bit on the usefulness of it all.

Could you be town doing this?  Yes.  Are there other players where I would be more convinced they were town?  Yes.  Because you and I have been scum together, I've seen what you can and will do.  And this is in that pile.

[ashersky]

I can offer this, if I survive beyond D1 I promise not to self-vote for the remainder of the game. If that looks scummy to say, so be it. I think it should satisfy the policy voters though.

Dude, if you don't unvote, it's all moot.  I mean, if you are town and if you get hammered (you are still at L-1) and you are on the wagon, that sucks extra for us.  Wagon analysis is harmed by your vote being included (meaning one more person gets to be in the off-wagon bucket).  There are so many easy reasons to be on your lynch.  These are valid arguments against your self-vote based on a possible town flip.  It seems like you wanted some.

That said, if you are scum, and we let you get away with this, that's huge for you.  But, well, even scum ought to make us earn it.  Even freeing up space for a partner to bus you seems like better play.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: hydrad

[Hydrad]

oh boy this is getting interesting.

also slightly more scummy read on WW now since usually hes the one who I'd say can read me the best and I feel like has almost never got it wrong. But maybe I'm misremembering that. But its a bit weird to be that hes seeing me as scum here so confidently.

[Witherweaver]

oh boy this is getting interesting.

also slightly more scummy read on WW now since usually hes the one who I'd say can read me the best and I feel like has almost never got it wrong. But maybe I'm misremembering that. But its a bit weird to be that hes seeing me as scum here so confidently.

Buddying is scummy!

[Hydrad]

oh boy this is getting interesting.

also slightly more scummy read on WW now since usually hes the one who I'd say can read me the best and I feel like has almost never got it wrong. But maybe I'm misremembering that. But its a bit weird to be that hes seeing me as scum here so confidently.

Buddying is scummy!

isn't this the opposite of buddying?

[chairs]

vote: pps in case I'm not already

[Witherweaver]

oh boy this is getting interesting.

also slightly more scummy read on WW now since usually hes the one who I'd say can read me the best and I feel like has almost never got it wrong. But maybe I'm misremembering that. But its a bit weird to be that hes seeing me as scum here so confidently.

Buddying is scummy!

isn't this the opposite of buddying?

Well, not the "usually he's the one who I'd say can read me the best and I feel like has almost never got it wrong" part.

[ashersky]

vote: pps in case I'm not already

If you weren't already and he hadn't unvoted, that was the hammer...

[Hydrad]

also on the subject of PPS.

hmm hes still back and forth for me. There will be times I'm reading some of the points and stuff hes making and others a re making and going ok i'll vote for him. And then suddenly his posts make him seem towny to me and I don't want to vote him.

So for some reason even though hes had a bunch of posts I still find him nullish.

Mind you if we decide on him as a lynch I won't be to dissappointed as it doesn't look like I'm going to be able to read him anyways.

[Witherweaver]

also on the subject of PPS.

hmm hes still back and forth for me. There will be times I'm reading some of the points and stuff hes making and others a re making and going ok i'll vote for him. And then suddenly his posts make him seem towny to me and I don't want to vote him.

So for some reason even though hes had a bunch of posts I still find him nullish.

Mind you if we decide on him as a lynch I won't be to dissappointed as it doesn't look like I'm going to be able to read him anyways.

How do you feel about Yuma?

[Hydrad]

also on the subject of PPS.

hmm hes still back and forth for me. There will be times I'm reading some of the points and stuff hes making and others a re making and going ok i'll vote for him. And then suddenly his posts make him seem towny to me and I don't want to vote him.

So for some reason even though hes had a bunch of posts I still find him nullish.

Mind you if we decide on him as a lynch I won't be to dissappointed as it doesn't look like I'm going to be able to read him anyways.

How do you feel about Yuma?

I still find yuma one of the towniest people here currently.

[Twistedarcher]

Would really like to see PPS lynched today. Hydrad is null/slightly towny for me, I won't join that wagon unless I have to. Chairs seems townier.

[pingpongsam]

Chairs is definitely being chairs fwiw

[pingpongsam]

TA won't bus his partner unless he has to.

[gkrieg13]

TA won't bus his partner unless he has to.

Are you calling TA/Hydrad scum team?

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.4

ashersky (1): Hydrad
pingpongsam (5): Twistedarcher, yuma, faust, ashersky, chairs {L-2}
Hydrad (3): gkrieg13, Witherweaver, pingpongsam

Not Voting (3): Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, Jimmmmm

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 21, 3 PM forum time.

[gkrieg13]

So based on the last few pages, I would be fine with lynching TA / pps / Hydrad today.  None of them came off any townier.

My other choice would be WW.  This is more of a gut read though.

I think I like a Hydrad vote the most at the moment

[yuma]

Would really like to see PPS lynched today. Hydrad is null/slightly towny for me, I won't join that wagon unless I have to.

I would as well. I see Hydrad as being scummier than TA here but honestly as long as PPS is an option at this point I won't be joining that wagon/

I think it needs to be PPS. I don't think we can just let PPS get away with scummy behavior because we as a town talked him out of it. Twice.

[pingpongsam]

Would really like to see PPS lynched today. Hydrad is null/slightly towny for me, I won't join that wagon unless I have to.

I would as well. I see Hydrad as being scummier than TA here but honestly as long as PPS is an option at this point I won't be joining that wagon/

I think it needs to be PPS. I don't think we can just let PPS get away with scummy behavior because we as a town talked him out of it. Twice.

So you don't actually think I am scum you just want to punish me. Get in line with the group think or don't play at all is the climate being created.

[yuma]

So you don't actually think I am scum you just want to punish me. Get in line with the group think or don't play at all is the climate being created.

So many passive aggressive things to say. Can't pick one.... Will just type this.

[Awaclus]

I would say that TA is somewhat towny.

[yuma]

also on the subject of PPS.

hmm hes still back and forth for me. There will be times I'm reading some of the points and stuff hes making and others a re making and going ok i'll vote for him. And then suddenly his posts make him seem towny to me and I don't want to vote him.

So for some reason even though hes had a bunch of posts I still find him nullish.

Mind you if we decide on him as a lynch I won't be to dissappointed as it doesn't look like I'm going to be able to read him anyways.

if there is one thing holding me back on lynching pps it is probably this as i could easily see this as hydrad positioning himself to be either on the lynch (but with reservation for town credit) or off the lynch (town credit of course...) i pps flips town

or if pps is mafia along with hydrad this looks like it is supporting the wagom, positioning to hammer/bus for towncred if necessary w/o actually putting down a vote now

so really no reason to move my vote, but this is a scummy post

[pingpongsam]

also on the subject of PPS.

hmm hes still back and forth for me. There will be times I'm reading some of the points and stuff hes making and others a re making and going ok i'll vote for him. And then suddenly his posts make him seem towny to me and I don't want to vote him.

So for some reason even though hes had a bunch of posts I still find him nullish.

Mind you if we decide on him as a lynch I won't be to dissappointed as it doesn't look like I'm going to be able to read him anyways.

if there is one thing holding me back on lynching pps it is probably this as i could easily see this as hydrad positioning himself to be either on the lynch (but with reservation for town credit) or off the lynch (town credit of course...) i pps flips town

or if pps is mafia along with hydrad this looks like it is supporting the wagom, positioning to hammer/bus for towncred if necessary w/o actually putting down a vote now

so really no reason to move my vote, but this is a scummy post

So you agree with me but would rather punish me instead.

[chairs]

I'll be honest, I'm voting you for information.

[yuma]

So you agree with me but would rather punish me instead.

no i do not agree

[Hydrad]

I'll be honest, I'm voting you for information.

but now isn't that vote kinda null since you said that?

[Hydrad]

also on the subject of PPS.

hmm hes still back and forth for me. There will be times I'm reading some of the points and stuff hes making and others a re making and going ok i'll vote for him. And then suddenly his posts make him seem towny to me and I don't want to vote him.

So for some reason even though hes had a bunch of posts I still find him nullish.

Mind you if we decide on him as a lynch I won't be to dissappointed as it doesn't look like I'm going to be able to read him anyways.

if there is one thing holding me back on lynching pps it is probably this as i could easily see this as hydrad positioning himself to be either on the lynch (but with reservation for town credit) or off the lynch (town credit of course...) i pps flips town

or if pps is mafia along with hydrad this looks like it is supporting the wagom, positioning to hammer/bus for towncred if necessary w/o actually putting down a vote now

so really no reason to move my vote, but this is a scummy post

Ya I figured it could be seen as scummy so thats unfortunate. But if I get to afraid of making scummy posts I start lurking again and I'm trying to avoid that as much as possible.

[yuma]

and stop with the whiny "everyone is punishing me" stuff... i think you are scummy. that is why i am voting you. punishment has nothing to do with it. i feel like i have explained that previously but you only want to interpret my posts that way. emotion, smoke screen... who said something about that again?

[chairs]

I'll be honest, I'm voting you for information.

but now isn't that vote kinda null since you said that?

No? I think there's plenty of interaction BEFORE MY VOTE regarding PPS that will allow us to really glean some value from his flip. At this point, he's our best D1 lynch due to the interactions, even if everyone jumps on the wagon saying "for info".

[pingpongsam]

and stop with the whiny "everyone is punishing me" stuff... i think you are scummy. that is why i am voting you. punishment has nothing to do with it. i feel like i have explained that previously but you only want to interpret my posts that way. emotion, smoke screen... who said something about that again?

Oh, I missed any post where you actually thought I was scum. I perceived you to be voting policy the whole time. In fact, I would go so far as to say you are suddenly being inconsistent within your reason for voting me. Your reasons for thinking Hydrad may be scum mirror the ones I posted earlier and thus, whether you like it or not, you do agree with me unless you want to add this statement to your growing list of inconsistencies.

[pingpongsam]

I'll be honest, I'm voting you for information.

but now isn't that vote kinda null since you said that?

No? I think there's plenty of interaction BEFORE MY VOTE regarding PPS that will allow us to really glean some value from his flip. At this point, he's our best D1 lynch due to the interactions, even if everyone jumps on the wagon saying "for info".

Here we have explicit acknowledge that my self vote wagon formation will be informative and thus not the value less and distractive waste that forms the basis for mislynching me. If everyone agrees with this then I've done you all a favor and some gratitude instead of chastisement is in order.

[yuma]

Oh, I missed any post where you actually thought I was scum. I perceived you to be voting policy the whole time. In fact, I would go so far as to say you are suddenly being inconsistent within your reason for voting me. Your reasons for thinking Hydrad may be scum mirror the ones I posted earlier and thus, whether you like it or not, you do agree with me unless you want to add this statement to your growing list of inconsistencies.

in going back and finding your post on hydrad i do agree with it, but didn't realize you felt the same way when i posted. i thought i was introducing something original (unless it was subconsciously there from you already). however i take it farther as i think there is a possibility of you both being scum

but i disagree that i am policy voting you. that is what i meant when i said i did not agree

if you really need me to i can go back later and pull up my old quotes for you, but you will have to wait as that is hard for me to do while one handed typing with a babe in arms (sorry if i am humanizing myself again, but i wanted to let you know that while i am willing to go back and show you, i just cant do it right this moment...)

[Hydrad]

Hmm i'm going to move to Vote: TA for now as my old vote seems to be accomplishing nothing. I was going to vote PPS but then i though why not put a little bit of pressure on TA!

So this is mainly a pressure vote where I'm preferring PPS a bit but wouldn't mind if TA got lynched instead. I'd say i'm 63% wanting PPS 37% TA.

[yuma]

please realize there in fact were a few of us that we voting for you before your selvote (the second one) and the reasons for those votes involve far more than you first self vote... minimizing these votes for all people voting you for selfvoting is misleading

[pingpongsam]

please realize there in fact were a few of us that we voting for you before your selvote (the second one) and the reasons for those votes involve far more than you first self vote... minimizing these votes for all people voting you for selfvoting is misleading

What are all these  myriad reasons I am scum that don't involve my self voting? In a nutshell. I would like to rebut these. Clearly the self voting has been defended as far as it can be.

[Twistedarcher]

I'll be honest, I'm voting you for information.

but now isn't that vote kinda null since you said that?

No? I think there's plenty of interaction BEFORE MY VOTE regarding PPS that will allow us to really glean some value from his flip. At this point, he's our best D1 lynch due to the interactions, even if everyone jumps on the wagon saying "for info".

Here we have explicit acknowledge that my self vote wagon formation will be informative and thus not the value less and distractive waste that forms the basis for mislynching me. If everyone agrees with this then I've done you all a favor and some gratitude instead of chastisement is in order.

can you restate please, i don't understand.

[Twistedarcher]

and stop with the whiny "everyone is punishing me" stuff... i think you are scummy. that is why i am voting you. punishment has nothing to do with it. i feel like i have explained that previously but you only want to interpret my posts that way. emotion, smoke screen... who said something about that again?

Oh, I missed any post where you actually thought I was scum. I perceived you to be voting policy the whole time. In fact, I would go so far as to say you are suddenly being inconsistent within your reason for voting me. Your reasons for thinking Hydrad may be scum mirror the ones I posted earlier and thus, whether you like it or not, you do agree with me unless you want to add this statement to your growing list of inconsistencies.

#493 #530. he had reasons  you are dismissing his case to you as a policy vote when it's not.

[Twistedarcher]

chairs and hydrad I think you should vote for the viable lynch with the highest likelihood of succeeding in your eyes. right now anyone but gkrieg and faust is viable id you're willing to put in the work. voting for other reasons accomplish less especially when you make those other reasons public.

[pingpongsam]

chairs and hydrad I think you should vote for the viable lynch with the highest likelihood of succeeding in your eyes.

Why is this not advisable when the lynch is your own?

[pingpongsam]

Reading 493, the gist seems to be that I must be scum here because in another game where I was scum the focus was entirely on myself. I have rebutted that this is my typical play style regardless of alignment. Yuma disagreed at some point so well, there's that. I still say this line of reasoning is still directly related to the self vote.

[pingpongsam]

I'll be honest, I'm voting you for information.

but now isn't that vote kinda null since you said that?

No? I think there's plenty of interaction BEFORE MY VOTE regarding PPS that will allow us to really glean some value from his flip. At this point, he's our best D1 lynch due to the interactions, even if everyone jumps on the wagon saying "for info".

Here we have explicit acknowledge that my self vote wagon formation will be informative and thus not the value less and distractive waste that forms the basis for mislynching me. If everyone agrees with this then I've done you all a favor and some gratitude instead of chastisement is in order.

can you restate please, i don't understand.

Chairs says my flip will be informative. It is directly due to my actions that a wagon exists on me and that such a flip would be informative. The majority opinion is that I'm clouding the game and that self voting is bad and PPS is a turd in the punch bowl. But clearly I'm doing everyone a service so a thank you should be in order.

[pingpongsam]

Read 530, saw nothing additional to the case on me.

[Twistedarcher]

Read 530, saw nothing additional to the case on me.

Even if you disagree with the reasoning (which you obviously would), do you agree that yuma's vote on you is not just a policy vote?

[Hydrad]

chairs and hydrad I think you should vote for the viable lynch with the highest likelihood of succeeding in your eyes. right now anyone but gkrieg and faust is viable id you're willing to put in the work. voting for other reasons accomplish less especially when you make those other reasons public.

My vote is on you serious. But its also for info.

I'm seeing a few people state how they are ok with your lynch also but no one actually placing votes on you. I think part of it is because there isn't a wagon on you so the vote on you would feel like its accomplishing nothing.

So I figured a good way to get more information is enabling your wagon to be jumped on also. This can give some useful info also but its not like I'm doing this only for the info part.

I'm still ok with you as a lynch right now and i figured that the potential of learning a bit more of info is worth the vote on you. And from my perspective the knowledge that i'm voting for you is partially for info shouldn't affect the info we could gain to much.

At least thats how i'm thinking of it.

[Hydrad]

oh I guess i skipped the part of highest succeeding. Why does it need to be on the person with highest succeeding chance or am i missing something there. If thats the case then all people do is vote on however is closest to lynch. We still have a while to go i think before deadline so I don't think that having my vote on someone not close to being lynched is an issue at this point since I'm also stateing where my vote would be if it wasn't on you.

[pingpongsam]

Read 530, saw nothing additional to the case on me.

Even if you disagree with the reasoning (which you obviously would), do you agree that yuma's vote on you is not just a policy vote?

Yes, I agree that you both colluded to produce a flimsy case based on circumstantial evidence with no direct bearing on this game to hide behind while pushing an otherwise easy lynch based on the self vote. Yuma indicated lots of reasons and insinuated others held these views besides him and you. If this is true I'd like to know who else shares these views and if there is anything else besides the self vote and other game meta, that is anything in this game someone thinks us outright scummy supporting their vote.

PPE, hydrad just did something I view as quite towny.

[pingpongsam]

Unvote going to bed.

[yuma]

#493 #530. he had reasons  you are dismissing his case to you as a policy vote when it's not.

thanks.

To add to this and to respond to some of PPS later posts I'll add a bit.

Here is how I see things going down...

pps votes for himself, garners a bunch of response and reactions (in my mind almost all of it meaningless, but he thinks he got good stuff out of it, so well, I can't really argue with that, but that is besides the point) among which were a vote by me (immediately rescinded once he unvoted--THAT was a policy vote, pps) and a vote by TA (which stuck around until post 489)

in post 489 TA talks about PPS's play this game, which yes has some correlation to the first self vote because much that is much of what PPS has talked about, in which TA noticed that PPS had taken a stance of "ME" and to quote TA he says:

-- scum is focusing on getting HIM mislynched, and anyone who wants to vote HIM is obviously scum trying to set up a mislynch -- there's no possibility people voting him could simply be mistaken town.

which resonated with me, as I felt that this was an accurate summation of PPS's because at this point I believe the only person voting for PPS was TA, everyone else had unvoted from the first selfvote wagon. So TA says that PPS is really, self focused on himself and rebuffing any accusation against himself with accusations that said persons are scum.

I vote, yes the first self vote is ancillary to this discussion, but so is every single post in this game to some extent or another... we aren't voting in a vacuum.

I then go back and actually look at PPS in the most recent (for me) game where PPS was town (TA also did some homework and went back and looked at PPS in diffusion of power and clarified some points). Adventure time and look and see what he played like and I notice a difference that I deemed significant. It wasn't exclusive, but I felt that it was significant enough to keep my vote where it was.

From there chair votes (w/o explanation but implications that he agreed with TA and I) from there pps votes and then I can't really tell if people are voting for PPS for self voting or for what ta and I said or a combination of the two (faust looks more like it is selfvoting but PPS doesn't seem to have a problem with faust's vote... probably because faust is semi-IC? but if a semi-IC can have that sort of a reaction so couldn't town? nah... cause pps wants to paint everyone voting for him, for any reason as scummy unless they are semi-IC...) anyways....

From there PPS tries to deflate the points on him as being exclusively about selfvoting, which as I have demonstrated isn't true. And once that is pointed out to him tries to deflate the case as:

Read 530, saw nothing additional to the case on me.

Even if you disagree with the reasoning (which you obviously would), do you agree that yuma's vote on you is not just a policy vote?

Yes, I agree that you both colluded to produce a flimsy case based on circumstantial evidence with no direct bearing on this game to hide behind while pushing an otherwise easy lynch based on the self vote. Yuma indicated lots of reasons and insinuated others held these views besides him and you. If this is true I'd like to know who else shares these views and if there is anything else besides the self vote and other game meta, that is anything in this game someone thinks us outright scummy supporting their vote.

where he does exactly what TA accused him of doing. Anyone voting for him for reasons he deems not good enough must be pushing an easy lynch in nefarious and colluding manners (ie scum) and then exaggerates (he says lots of reasons... when I said far more, which was an accurate assessment as far more is an accurate description of having a case more than just voting off of self voting. I'll admit that there isn't "lots of reasons" but it is day1. There aren't going to be lots of reasons and if you expect there to be then you will always be disappointed).

So to PPS asking if there is more to it than meta and self voting I would now add: attempting to deflate the case on him via misrepresentation and defensive posturing along with the added "woe is me" emotional meta that it appears he is using as a smokescreen (his words, not mine)

[Twistedarcher]

Read 530, saw nothing additional to the case on me.

Even if you disagree with the reasoning (which you obviously would), do you agree that yuma's vote on you is not just a policy vote?

Yes, I agree that you both colluded to produce a flimsy case based on circumstantial evidence with no direct bearing on this game to hide behind while pushing an otherwise easy lynch based on the self vote. Yuma indicated lots of reasons and insinuated others held these views besides him and you. If this is true I'd like to know who else shares these views and if there is anything else besides the self vote and other game meta, that is anything in this game someone thinks us outright scummy supporting their vote.

PPE, hydrad just did something I view as quite towny.

You're doing EXACTLY what I was accusing you of doing. Two scum buddies teaming up D1 to make a case on PPS! There's no way we could just be mistaken town, you immediately jump to the conclusion that we MUST be scum pushing your mislynch.

Tell me why it's impossible for me to be mistaken town, if you're town? Why is it impossible for Yuma to be mistaken town?

Do you not see the similarities between PPS in this game and PPS in the game I keep referencing, where you were scum?

[Twistedarcher]

You're attacking the people who make the case and discrediting and misrepresenting it. It's not a very inspiring defense in my eyes.

I'm glad Yuma sees this too because I think I'd be going crazy if no one agreed with me on this.

[Twistedarcher]

chairs and hydrad I think you should vote for the viable lynch with the highest likelihood of succeeding in your eyes. right now anyone but gkrieg and faust is viable id you're willing to put in the work. voting for other reasons accomplish less especially when you make those other reasons public.

My vote is on you serious. But its also for info.

I'm seeing a few people state how they are ok with your lynch also but no one actually placing votes on you. I think part of it is because there isn't a wagon on you so the vote on you would feel like its accomplishing nothing.

So I figured a good way to get more information is enabling your wagon to be jumped on also. This can give some useful info also but its not like I'm doing this only for the info part.

I'm still ok with you as a lynch right now and i figured that the potential of learning a bit more of info is worth the vote on you. And from my perspective the knowledge that i'm voting for you is partially for info shouldn't affect the info we could gain to much.

At least thats how i'm thinking of it.

Shrug, fair enough

[Twistedarcher]

oh I guess i skipped the part of highest succeeding. Why does it need to be on the person with highest succeeding chance or am i missing something there. If thats the case then all people do is vote on however is closest to lynch. We still have a while to go i think before deadline so I don't think that having my vote on someone not close to being lynched is an issue at this point since I'm also stateing where my vote would be if it wasn't on you.

Sorry, that was unclear. Highest chance of succeeding = Highest chance of flipping scum, not the highest chance of going through.

[Hydrad]

oh I guess i skipped the part of highest succeeding. Why does it need to be on the person with highest succeeding chance or am i missing something there. If thats the case then all people do is vote on however is closest to lynch. We still have a while to go i think before deadline so I don't think that having my vote on someone not close to being lynched is an issue at this point since I'm also stateing where my vote would be if it wasn't on you.

Sorry, that was unclear. Highest chance of succeeding = Highest chance of flipping scum, not the highest chance of going through.

that makes much more sense!

[faust]

Catching up. Ignore my questions if already answered.

I'd do TA above PPS.

Hydrad still looks scummy as well.

Can you maybe give reasoning for this post?

[faust]

so do we want to lynch w/o hearing from uos/jimmm like at all? I am kinda at the point where I don't think we will get much from them today regardless and I actually kinda like the wifom situation that puts mafia in (assuming uos and jimmmm aren't mafia of course) so I think I am ok with it...

What WIFOM situation?  Is this also assuming PPS is Mafia?

meaning that neither player has given any sort of read on anyone... if Jimmm/UoS are in fact town, mafia has absolutely no idea as to where they stand on them, reading townie or mafia. Now, mafia does have other reasons to NK people (PR hunting, mason targeting, etc), but this setup is a bit complicated in that regard... but generally suspicion is a pretty good reason to NK someone, but in this case mafia just doesn't have that information.

Plus both Jimmmmm and UoS are really good players when fully active, which RL situations have denied them... and under normal circumstances could be viable NK or mafia PR targets (if they have them)

Mostly it is another decision point for mafia to force them to make without much information and that is an other point where they could make a mistake and I like that...

I don't think PPS's alignment matters too much in this regard

I don't think this matters too much with two claimed quasi-ICs.

[ashersky]

It's so weird being in the same time zone as faust.

[faust]

In my experience we have done exactly this, picked a player we wanted dead asap.

I never did this, except for the one game where we decided to heavily bus D1. ... Interesting possibilities...

[faust]

Effectively I'm being told several people don't like how I play the game. Deity having a better than average track record as either alignment my play style is punished. At some point I'm either banned for playing or auto lynched D1 for being present in the game. The only other alternative is for me to assimilate a dictated play style.

You and Awaclus could join a support group.

[faust]

Because I agree he's scummy.

I could buy this.  But then, we always say he's scummy.

I don't think he's scummy... detailed reads list to follow once I'm caught up.

[faust]

For what it's worth, PPS does exactly this when he's town.

But it's also something easily replicated as scum.

Such is the thing with established metas.

I would say that self voting has to be the riskiest and least rewarding scum play. Granted, if someone is going to do it it would be me so, touchι. Personally, I don't see it as bad town play, I think it has a lot more merit than people want to give it. It is sort of one way, though. Do you think I can back out of it now and not lose all credibility?

You are sort of preaching to the choir here -- I'm probably the most famous self-voter around.  For a long time, it was only as town, and then it worked once when I was scum, then it was all over.

But, more to your point, I think, is that I do think there are times when it is in the best interest of town to get yourself lynched.  That's a minority view, though.  If you go back to M20, I think (Monks and Masons), Eevee and I had this argument.

That said, it's been like three years of mafia since then, and I've come around a bit on the usefulness of it all.

Could you be town doing this?  Yes.  Are there other players where I would be more convinced they were town?  Yes.  Because you and I have been scum together, I've seen what you can and will do.  And this is in that pile.

I like ash here. Ash is towny.

[faust]

oh boy this is getting interesting.

also slightly more scummy read on WW now since usually hes the one who I'd say can read me the best and I feel like has almost never got it wrong. But maybe I'm misremembering that. But its a bit weird to be that hes seeing me as scum here so confidently.

I feel like you have made this exact argument in some other game. Do you remember and can you point me to it? I would like to know how alignments turned out there.

[faust]

So based on the last few pages, I would be fine with lynching TA / pps / Hydrad today.  None of them came off any townier.

My other choice would be WW.  This is more of a gut read though.

I think I like a Hydrad vote the most at the moment

This is a scummy post.

[faust]

chairs and hydrad I think you should vote for the viable lynch with the highest likelihood of succeeding in your eyes. right now anyone but gkrieg and faust is viable id you're willing to put in the work. voting for other reasons accomplish less especially when you make those other reasons public.

My vote is on you serious. But its also for info.

I'm seeing a few people state how they are ok with your lynch also but no one actually placing votes on you. I think part of it is because there isn't a wagon on you so the vote on you would feel like its accomplishing nothing.

So I figured a good way to get more information is enabling your wagon to be jumped on also. This can give some useful info also but its not like I'm doing this only for the info part.

I'm still ok with you as a lynch right now and i figured that the potential of learning a bit more of info is worth the vote on you. And from my perspective the knowledge that i'm voting for you is partially for info shouldn't affect the info we could gain to much.

At least thats how i'm thinking of it.

This post adds to my feeling that Hydrad is town here.

[faust]

It's so weird being in the same time zone as faust.

Absolutely.

[Awaclus]

It's so weird being in the same time zone as faust.

Absolutely.

Aren't you always in the same time zone as faust?

[ashersky]

It's so weird being in the same time zone as faust.

Absolutely.

Aren't you always in the same time zone as faust?

Not unless faust used to live in Australia.

[ashersky]

Speaking of Australia...where is Jimmmmm?  His voice is absent.

[faust]

So, first, here is an overview of what I think of what happened.

I don't like the way this discussion has been going, particularly. We may end up lynching PPS today, but it's not good to not talk about anyone else.

So, to help me figure you out, PPS: Could you maybe highlight a game in which you were town and that illustrates your play as town? Because I only remember scum games of yours (Diffusion of Power, ASoIaF, Time War) and well you look similar here, but of course that doesn't mean anything if I don't compare to your town games.

I thought PPS might claim Mason at some point, honestly. His play would make a lot more sense then. Well, he's been at L-1 for a bit and no claim. Granted, he only was at L-1 because of the self-vote.

So as a thought exercise, I want to assume that PPS is town for a moment. Where does that put scum? I think in general scum would prefer to be off-wagon, because the PPS lynch looks like it will go through even without scum pushing it. The PPS wagon:

Twistedarcher, yuma, faust, ashersky, chairs

ashersky looks rather towny. He is changing quite a bit from his established meta. chairs's recent vote on PPS seems somewhat towny also. yuma is very active, but beyond that I think it's been too long for me to get a good read. If I had to pick scum on the wagon, I would probably choose TA (again, this is assuming PPS is town).

Off-wagon, well UoS and Jimmmmm are very null. Awaclus's position on PPS is hedgey. WW looks bad for starting an alernative wagon. Hydrad looks slightly bad for being the alternative wagon.

[Hydrad]

oh boy this is getting interesting.

also slightly more scummy read on WW now since usually hes the one who I'd say can read me the best and I feel like has almost never got it wrong. But maybe I'm misremembering that. But its a bit weird to be that hes seeing me as scum here so confidently.

I feel like you have made this exact argument in some other game. Do you remember and can you point me to it? I would like to know how alignments turned out there.

i'm pretty sure i have used this argument before also... although I don't remember what the result was. I'm going to try and look through some old games and see if I find it as I'm curious myself now.

[Awaclus]

It's so weird being in the same time zone as faust.

Absolutely.

Aren't you always in the same time zone as faust?

Not unless faust used to live in Australia.

I was talking to faust.

[faust]

A reads list:

chairs - still pretty null to me. Slightly towny for his second PPS vote but that could be faked.
UmbrageOfSnow - nothing here.
Witherweaver - there was something that made me not want to lynch him, let me check... oh yeah, this. Could be fabricated, but it's quite a stretch. And WW has not been particularly scummy.
gkrieg13 - Mason claim
yuma - I wouldn't like to lynch him really, but I don't have anything that really makes me think he's town.
Awaclus - as far as I know, he always seems a bit forced when replicating his meta. He feels very natural here. Do not want to lynch.
ashersky - towny as explained before.
faust - me
Hydrad - had two posts that really made me think he is town, the one where he explained his tonwread on yuma and the recent one I pointed out.
TwistedArcher - he was a bit scummy before the whole PPS thing, and what happened with PPS makes sense for scum!TA regardless of PPS's alignment. Definitely in the lynch pool.
Jimmmmm - nothing.
pingpongsam - I'm no longer as convinced, but still a very viable option. I hope I can figure this out.

Wow, that's quite the PoE list. The fact that so many people look towny makes UoS and Jimmmmm viable choices. We really need to hear from them.

[faust]

It's so weird being in the same time zone as faust.

Absolutely.

Aren't you always in the same time zone as faust?

Not unless faust used to live in Australia.

I was talking to faust.

I am definitely constantly weirded out.

[Hydrad]

hmm its way harder then i thought to try and find that quote.

I'm trying to ctrl+f search my old games with keywords to try and find it but its not working as well as I would have thought. Not sure if anyone else has any ideas.

[faust]

Hey folks, just checking in. I have the next two days after today off, so plenty of time to catch up.

This is why I don't like playing with Jimmmmm btw. This was two and a half days ago. There's always these promises of activity, but nothing ever comes out of it.

[faust]

Request prod on Jimmmmm

[Hydrad]

wow i found it by going through all my posts with the keywork "ww". at least i'm pretty sure this is it.

Also I was kinda hoping WW was going to say he felt scummy about me and then I would feel good about voting him since he has a really good percentage of getting my alignment correct. I think I'm going to go Vote: SS instead

so here me and ww were both town and it looks like he said I'm town also judging from my quote.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.5

pingpongsam (5): Twistedarcher, yuma, faust, ashersky, chairs {L-2}
Twistedarcher (1): Hydrad
Hydrad (2): gkrieg13, Witherweaver

Not Voting (4): Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, Jimmmmm, pingpongsam

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.Day 1 ends at Sep 21, 03 PM forum time Forum Time. That is in 4 days and 9+ hours.

Request prod on Jimmmmm

Prod sent.

[Jimmmmm]

Sorry everyone, I've been quite sick. I'll give pps a read in the next little while.

[Jimmmmm]

Hey folks, just checking in. I have the next two days after today off, so plenty of time to catch up.

This is why I don't like playing with Jimmmmm btw. This was two and a half days ago. There's always these promises of activity, but nothing ever comes out of it.

While this is true, what point is there in saying this other than to try to shame me?

[pingpongsam]

First, a quick rebuttal to Yuma. He states in several instances that I am categorically lashing out against anyone voting me which is simply not true. The only people I have directly confronted for voting me are Yuma and TA. The only person I feel is actually scum making a case on me is TA. That is a far cry from blanket hysteria that everyone who has cast a vote for me must somehow be scum. I am quite certain Faust is town and I feel ashersky is likely town. I think chairs is possibly town. I'm coming around to the idea that hydrad may be town. All, along I have thought Yuma might be town which is why I have so extensively interacted with him because he otherwise seems pretty insistent on my case but I don't see his positions as being particularly scummy.

So, no, I am not just painting everyone on my wagon as being scum. Really, just TA. So I think it is hyperbolic and disingenuous to say that I am.

[pingpongsam]

Props to those who have data mined the site for the leaderboard and stats threads. Unfortunately those logs only capture about 1/3 of my Mafia activity because I much prefer RMM games. Looking over the available evidence I concur with the meta described thus far by both TA and Yuma. That said, I will point out that my play style is almost always some form of early spot light stealing in order to direct the game. As town controlling the game is paramount to victory. As town controlling the game is about preventing scum from controlling the game.

As town, I generally only know the alignment of exactly one player, myself. Thus, the only control group (scientifically speaking) I have is myself. I am forced to consider all other interactions against this one known quantity. This is fundamentally true for all townsfolk. That I am overt about it and directly exploitative of it is what is being leveraged against me here.

[Witherweaver]

Well Faust seems town, which is good since he claimed ICish.

Though, me being scummy for starting an alternate wagon doesn't make sense, especially if that alternate wagon is scummy for being alternate wagon.

I'm starting to feel Yuma as a lynch. 

[faust]

Hey folks, just checking in. I have the next two days after today off, so plenty of time to catch up.

This is why I don't like playing with Jimmmmm btw. This was two and a half days ago. There's always these promises of activity, but nothing ever comes out of it.

While this is true, what point is there in saying this other than to try to shame me?

I was hoping to entice you to make more realistic predictions in the future.

If you were sick, that is of course nothing you could have expected, and I'm sorry and hope you get better soon

[faust]

Well Faust seems town, which is good since he claimed ICish.

Though, me being scummy for starting an alternate wagon doesn't make sense, especially if that alternate wagon is scummy for being alternate wagon.

I'm starting to feel Yuma as a lynch.

That portion is valid only if PPS is town. I think scum might want to start an alternate wagon to look good.

[Witherweaver]

Sure, but if PPS were scum you'd argue I'm scummy for diverting from his lynch

[faust]

Sure, but if PPS were scum you'd argue I'm scummy for diverting from his lynch

Nah, I think scum would bus in that situation.

[Witherweaver]

Well alright, but the case is that I'm Town and I think PPS is more likely Town.

[pingpongsam]

Well alright, but the case is that I'm Town and I think PPS is more likely Town.

What makes you think I am likely town?

[Witherweaver]

Well alright, but the case is that I'm Town and I think PPS is more likely Town.

What makes you think I am likely town?

The way you've been acting seems like town you.  Plus scum doesn't usually nonchalantly get themselves to L-1 on like the first real-life day of the game, and your treatment of the wagon felt genuine.  The second self vote is more suspicious, actually, but it's also not outside of something you would do.

[Witherweaver]

Plus, everyone is all pretty eager to lynch you, and the arguments going around feel very rhetorical.

[faust]

Well alright, but the case is that I'm Town and I think PPS is more likely Town.

What makes you think I am likely town?

The way you've been acting seems like town you.  Plus scum doesn't usually nonchalantly get themselves to L-1 on like the first real-life day of the game, and your treatment of the wagon felt genuine.  The second self vote is more suspicious, actually, but it's also not outside of something you would do.

Where can I see town!PPS?

[Witherweaver]

Hmm.. he was town in Dice Mafia, and I don't remember the other game.

[faust]

Hmm.. he was town in Dice Mafia, and I don't remember the other game.

Alright... I don't see the similarities between PPS in Dice Mafia and his play here. That may be because it's RMM and there's lots of non-reads related talk. But he doesn't exactly strike me as that self-centered there. I may need another normal game. Checking the records... M39 (Adventure Time) is the most recent. Yeah, I missed that one. The one before is M12... very old, but relevant in that he was lynched D1.

[faust]

Okay, skimmed Adventure Time. These are relevant quotes:

Caught up early yesterday and again today. Will likely be gone all day but so far still standing firm on my vote. Not seeing anything new to convince me otherwise. Quite surprised there hasn't been a push for a wagon on me to date. I was kind of provoking one to see who would join it. While I have some suspicions about who may be scum I am largely null on everyone. Probably the only actual townish read I have is Axxle and I tend to doubly suspect my D1 Town reads.

Very well, Vote: PPS

The IC demanded it, no one will listen to better reasoning.

Thanks for the game.

Unfortunately, that doesn't help me figure out PPS. He IS similar there to the way he plays here, that's for sure. So I think he very well could be town. Or he could not.

[yuma]

I may need another normal game. Checking the records... M39 (Adventure Time) is the most recent. Yeah, I missed that one. The one before is M12... very old, but relevant in that he was lynched D1.

Here is my post analyzing Adventure Time to this game:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13859.msg524825#msg524825

pertinent points:
only moments of "self-absorption" is on Day3 where he is convinced the cop investigated him the night before and then throughout that day where he is mislynched as the day goes on. I don't have a problem with someone being "self-focused" when having a lot of votes on him, such as right now for PPS. But what TA and I talked about is when it happens with zero or one vote. I didn't see that in Adventure Time.

he talks about the diffusion of power game where he says that he used the "why is everyone ganging up on me card" as mafia as an emotional smokescreen. So what TA has accused him of doing, he admitted (and in AT he was town, so this statement can be accepted as authentic and not manipulative) that he did in a previous game as scum. And we think he is doing the same here.

[yuma]

First, a quick rebuttal to Yuma. He states in several instances that I am categorically lashing out against anyone voting me which is simply not true. The only people I have directly confronted for voting me are Yuma and TA. The only person I feel is actually scum making a case on me is TA. That is a far cry from blanket hysteria that everyone who has cast a vote for me must somehow be scum. I am quite certain Faust is town and I feel ashersky is likely town. I think chairs is possibly town. I'm coming around to the idea that hydrad may be town. All, along I have thought Yuma might be town which is why I have so extensively interacted with him because he otherwise seems pretty insistent on my case but I don't see his positions as being particularly scummy.

So, no, I am not just painting everyone on my wagon as being scum. Really, just TA. So I think it is hyperbolic and disingenuous to say that I am.

Ok. I interpreted this post, especially the last question a little bit different then:

Yes, I agree that you both colluded to produce a flimsy case based on circumstantial evidence with no direct bearing on this game to hide behind while pushing an otherwise easy lynch based on the self vote. Yuma indicated lots of reasons and insinuated others held these views besides him and you. If this is true I'd like to know who else shares these views and if there is anything else besides the self vote and other game meta, that is anything in this game someone thinks us outright scummy supporting their vote.

where you begin the paragraph about TA and I and use the wording "colluded" to implicate both of us and then move on to the other players. From here I extrapolated that implication, especially when you ask if anyone has anything that is outright scummy supporting their vote, impliying that they don't, so they too are also colluding.

But you are right that you never come out and directly say that you are suspicious of the others on your wagon but I hope you can see why I thought you implied this.

[faust]

All that "self-focus" stuff was never a big reason for me to vote PPS. What bothered me was his (post-RVS) self-vote, because that I view as completely anti-town and only suited to manipulate town.

Now I looked at one of his town games, where he did the same thing.

So really PPS is pretty much back to null for me.

I think it is fatal to assume that an experienced scum player like PPS would use the same, easily identifiable tactic twice as scum when there are lots of other options.

[faust]

Vote: Twistedarcher

[Witherweaver]

You said earlier you were going to explain why TA is scummy.  Still have that explanation?

[faust]

You said earlier you were going to explain why TA is scummy.  Still have that explanation?

Not sure what you mean. Some quotes:

TA's response after getting some pressure felt much like the one he had in that one game where we caught him D1. I'm not exactly sure which one it is, but I think I got the MVP, some that narrows it down.

TwistedArcher - he was a bit scummy before the whole PPS thing, and what happened with PPS makes sense for scum!TA regardless of PPS's alignment. Definitely in the lynch pool.

Also, more recently, there were some quotes that reminded me of "you're suspecting me for all the wrong reasons!"

Oh come on, give me more credit than that.

Yes, I think you are playing terribly as scum and am appalled that no one but Faust sees it.

Well now you're not only wrong but you're demeaning my play, I expect an apology after the game

[yuma]

So as a thought exercise, I want to assume that PPS is town for a moment. Where does that put scum? I think in general scum would prefer to be off-wagon, because the PPS lynch looks like it will go through even without scum pushing it. The PPS wagon:

Twistedarcher, yuma, faust, ashersky, chairs

Honestly I feel like the most suspicious of the votes is fausts... but quasi-IC that you are I must dismiss it. If I remember both you are askersky weren't really clear if you were voting for what TA and I had to say or if it was due to selfvoting. That is typical of ashersky I think, but not of you so much. chairs also didn't explain, but it was immediately clear that he was voting after the points TA and I made.

I am not scum and I can see where TA is coming from and feel he has had good points. But I have been lulled into complacency before of someone having similar reads to me, but in the specific case I am thinking of (MVIII) I was town and C_Frisk was scum and was copying me, whereas here TA has had the original reads and I am following him, so it doesn't apply here as I know I am town.

So if we aren't lynching PPS (which we should) I think we should look off wagon... Hydrad, Awalcus, and other people I can't remember (which should be significant that I can't remember them, but why do a lurker lynch when we can do a scummy lynch?)

[Witherweaver]

You said earlier you were going to explain why TA is scummy.  Still have that explanation?

Not sure what you mean. Some quotes:

I was referring specifically to your response to PPS last self-vote.  You said you were just about to defend PPS and make a  case against TA, but PPS voting himself made you vote for him instead.

[Witherweaver]

Has Awaclus even voted for anyone yet?

[Awaclus]

Has Awaclus even voted for anyone yet?

I voted for silverspawn.

[Witherweaver]

Silverspawn is in this game?!

[Witherweaver]

Wait, isn't he the mod?

[Awaclus]

Wait, isn't he the mod?

Yes.

[Witherweaver]

What's after a black belt?

[Awaclus]

What's after a black belt?

Depends on the martial art, but many have various kinds of red belts for the higher ranks.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, so I guess that's what you're working towards.

[ashersky]

What's after a black belt?

Silver, natch.

[yuma]

Has Awaclus even voted for anyone yet?

I voted for silverspawn.

let's do a hypothetical...

let's say we are playing a variant mafia game where the mod had a rule put in place that required you to be voting for some one at all times, if a player unvoted without voting for someone else they would then be voting for themselves. if that rule were in place in this game who would you be voting for? yourself or someone else?

[Awaclus]

let's do a hypothetical...

let's say we are playing a variant mafia game where the mod had a rule put in place that required you to be voting for some one at all times, if a player unvoted without voting for someone else they would then be voting for themselves. if that rule were in place in this game who would you be voting for? yourself or someone else?

Probably one of the lurkers.

[yuma]

vote: awaclus until he votes for someone...

this is a policy vote others should do the same

[Awaclus]

vote: awaclus until he votes for someone...

this is a policy vote others should do the same

Vote: UoS

[yuma]

let's do a hypothetical...

let's say we are playing a variant mafia game where the mod had a rule put in place that required you to be voting for some one at all times, if a player unvoted without voting for someone else they would then be voting for themselves. if that rule were in place in this game who would you be voting for? yourself or someone else?

Probably one of the lurkers.

also major cop-out... way not to take a stance or get in a position where some one might get something out of you.

you really think you have a strong town narrative here?

[yuma]

HA!

my vote is no longer a policy vote

[Awaclus]

also major cop-out... way not to take a stance or get in a position where some one might get something out of you.

It's not not taking a stance, it's taking the stance that all of the cases against people are super disappointing.

you really think you have a strong town narrative here?

Yes.

[Witherweaver]

I'm always down for a

Vote: Awaclus !

[yuma]

also major cop-out... way not to take a stance or get in a position where some one might get something out of you.

It's not not taking a stance, it's taking the stance that all of the cases against people are super disappointing.

you really think you have a strong town narrative here?

Yes.

then make a super-duper, terrifa-stupendous case yourself...

well it isn't. it isn't strong and i for one have no idea if it is town, so obviously it isn't working for me.

is the problem with me then? am i broken?

[Awaclus]

then make a super-duper, terrifa-stupendous case yourself...

There are none to be made.

well it isn't. it isn't strong and i for one have no idea if it is town, so obviously it isn't working for me.

is the problem with me then? am i broken?

At least it's working for faust.

[yuma]

then make a super-duper, terrifa-stupendous case yourself...

There are none to be made.

oh... ok!!! vote: no lynch

awaclus is a mafia god obviously. he just says he is town, so obviously he is, says there is no case worth voting for, so might as well move onto the next day... where the cases will be just as bad and awaclus will still be town just cause he says he is...

{something snappy and mean that i deleted before posting, but am leaving this part to signify that i am highly irritated and taking a break for a while... breathe in... breathe out...}

[Witherweaver]

"Town narrative" is such a fake BS phrase and it should no longer be used.

[Witherweaver]

then make a super-duper, terrifa-stupendous case yourself...

There are none to be made.

oh... ok!!! vote: no lynch

awaclus is a mafia god obviously. he just says he is town, so obviously he is, says there is no case worth voting for, so might as well move onto the next day... where the cases will be just as bad and awaclus will still be town just cause he says he is...

{something snappy and mean that i deleted before posting, but am leaving this part to signify that i am highly irritated and taking a break for a while... breathe in... breathe out...}

Keep Calm and Lynch Awaclus

[Awaclus]

"Town narrative" is such a fake BS phrase and it should no longer be used.

Yeah, we should start lynching people randomly then, instead of trying to figure out who is town and who isn't.

Keep Calm and Lynch Awaclus

Oh, you're already doing that, it seems.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.6

Awaclus (1): Witherweaver
pingpongsam (3): Twistedarcher, ashersky, chairs
Twistedarcher (2): Hydrad, faust
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Awaclus
Hydrad (1): gkrieg13

Not Voting (3): UmbrageOfSnow, Jimmmmm, pingpongsam

No-Lynch (1): yuma

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends at Sep 21, 03 PM forum time Forum Time. That is in 3 days and 23+ hours.

[ashersky]

Feels like PPS, TA, and Awaclus are the front runners right now.

[yuma]

ok let me come at this from some different angles....

awaclus: who in your opinion thus far in the game has, as you put it, shown a town narrative for their game play?

Once you get to that point how do you distinguish who is the best person to lynch from those leftover? Have you done that?

Do you understand why some of us might be frustrated with your style at times or do you think we are all just playing the game subparly?

Do you have any games where you have used this method with success that you could share with me? (this last one is only if you have time, don't go above and beyond out of your way if you feel this request would be a burden...)

[yuma]

Feels like PPS, TA, and Awaclus are the front runners right now.

swap TA with hydrad and you have my preferred top three

[Witherweaver]

"Town narrative" is such a fake BS phrase and it should no longer be used.

Yeah, we should start lynching people randomly then, instead of trying to figure out who is town and who isn't.

That would be way more helpful from you.  I hope your RNG lands on "Awaclus".

[chairs]

I'm... actually leaning TA right now as my second choice.

[Awaclus]

awaclus: who in your opinion thus far in the game has, as you put it, shown a town narrative for their game play?

Ashersky, faust, TA, gkrieg, you.

Once you get to that point how do you distinguish who is the best person to lynch from those leftover? Have you done that?

There seems to be a misconception here — I don't have town reads on people until I can PoE from there, I mostly just read someone, see that the town narrative is missing, and conclude that he's a good lynch. And even though I've read people, there isn't a particularly good case of a missing town narrative for anyone.

Do you understand why some of us might be frustrated with your style at times or do you think we are all just playing the game subparly?

Well, we're probably all just playing the game subparly. I don't understand why some of you are frustrated with my style.

Do you have any games where you have used this method with success that you could share with me? (this last one is only if you have time, don't go above and beyond out of your way if you feel this request would be a burden...)

Here's the best example: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13318.0

[Twistedarcher]

The amount of people willing to lynch both me and PPS is giving me alarm bells.

[yuma]

Here's the best example: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13318.0

Thanks for this and the other answers... I will definitely read this over in the next few days. And looking at it I see that it is a rendition of Traitor8! Hadn't realized you guys had run another version of that since Silo Mafia...! So kinda excited to read in fact...

[yuma]

The amount of people willing to lynch both me and PPS is giving me alarm bells.

who are they? chairs I can see. hydrad? ashersky? WW?

Not me (I don't want to lynch you) not faust (he doesn't want to lynch PPS) not awaclus (he has a town narrative on you)

do you feel like it is setting up for a lynch of you today followed by a potential mislynch tomorrow? (or vice versa?)

[ashersky]

The amount of people willing to lynch both me and PPS is giving me alarm bells.

I mean, willing to lynch and wanting to lynch aren't always the same thing.

[yuma]

so i am doing what i said and reading dwarf mafia and while i am only in the midst of day1 i am already seeing something... not what awaclus perhaps wants me to see (his town narrative thing working...) but i am seeing a different awaclus.

he is still frustrating people, but there he was being far more vocal, giving defenses, pointing out people not living up to the town narrative and voting! (even when he says "nothing is going on" in that game he found some things to talk about.

here he says there isn't anything to see non-town narratives, which obviously isn't true...

i think awaclus can't find anyone breaking town narratives because he 1. knows everyone is town and therefore can't actually be breaking town narratives except for 2. his scum buddies, who he isn't calling out because it is too early in the game for that.

people have said that this awaclus looks like any other awaclus but i think they may be just looking surface deep. anyone who still feels that way now i would ask to go deeper (beyond the frustration level) and see if you still feel that way.

vote: awaclus

[Twistedarcher]

Hey Yuma, you've said before you hate meta arguments. This is #2 this game. What's up? Is this game unique or has your viewpoint changed?

[yuma]

Hey Yuma, you've said before you hate meta arguments. This is #2 this game. What's up? Is this game unique or has your viewpoint changed?

I hate certain type of meta arguments... specifically ones that have to do with emotional reactions.

And I would say that I hate cases that rely solely on meta. The two that have caught my eye today aren't based on meta but are based on things i feel are scummy ("me" focused and scummylurking) that have been backed up by meta analysis, which i feel i have often done in the past

[Awaclus]

so i am doing what i said and reading dwarf mafia and while i am only in the midst of day1 i am already seeing something... not what awaclus perhaps wants me to see (his town narrative thing working...) but i am seeing a different awaclus.

Yeah, you were seeing a NEET Awaclus as opposed to the university student Awaclus you're seeing now.

[yuma]

so i am doing what i said and reading dwarf mafia and while i am only in the midst of day1 i am already seeing something... not what awaclus perhaps wants me to see (his town narrative thing working...) but i am seeing a different awaclus.

Yeah, you were seeing a NEET Awaclus as opposed to the university student Awaclus you're seeing now.

that very well could be and i don't want to criticize your or anyone else's involvement. but i will say that apart from activity the quality of your posts are different. you are still posting here... on a regular basis but nearly all posts are lacking in substance where in that game it was far for of a mix.

i think you have been active enough here to have put forward more than you have and less than i would have expected from that game.

[faust]

Feels like PPS, TA, and Awaclus are the front runners right now.

swap TA with hydrad and you have my preferred top three

Why do you think the points I made for Hydrad being town are invalid?

[faust]

The amount of people willing to lynch both me and PPS is giving me alarm bells.

I would feel the same thing if I were you and PPS was my scum partner 

[faust]

The amount of people willing to lynch both me and PPS is giving me alarm bells.

who are they? chairs I can see. hydrad? ashersky? WW?

Not me (I don't want to lynch you) not faust (he doesn't want to lynch PPS) not awaclus (he has a town narrative on you)

do you feel like it is setting up for a lynch of you today followed by a potential mislynch tomorrow? (or vice versa?)

I wouldn't say I do not want to lynch PPS. I would lynch him, but there are better targets.

[faust]

I feel a rising urge to lynch yuma.

[faust]

Let words be followed by action.

Vote: yuma

[yuma]

Feels like PPS, TA, and Awaclus are the front runners right now.

swap TA with hydrad and you have my preferred top three

Why do you think the points I made for Hydrad being town are invalid?

i have zero memory of them... if you want to link them i can look at them now (no pressure if you can't)... or i can look them up later when my arms are more free...

[yuma]

Let words be followed by action.

Vote: yuma

i have no response to this

[faust]

Let words be followed by action.

Vote: yuma

i have no response to this

Nice paradox.

[faust]

Feels like PPS, TA, and Awaclus are the front runners right now.

swap TA with hydrad and you have my preferred top three

Why do you think the points I made for Hydrad being town are invalid?

i have zero memory of them... if you want to link them i can look at them now (no pressure if you can't)... or i can look them up later when my arms are more free...

Hydrad - had two posts that really made me think he is town, the one where he explained his tonwread on yuma and the recent one I pointed out.

For convenience, the posts in question:

chairs and hydrad I think you should vote for the viable lynch with the highest likelihood of succeeding in your eyes. right now anyone but gkrieg and faust is viable id you're willing to put in the work. voting for other reasons accomplish less especially when you make those other reasons public.

My vote is on you serious. But its also for info.

I'm seeing a few people state how they are ok with your lynch also but no one actually placing votes on you. I think part of it is because there isn't a wagon on you so the vote on you would feel like its accomplishing nothing.

So I figured a good way to get more information is enabling your wagon to be jumped on also. This can give some useful info also but its not like I'm doing this only for the info part.

I'm still ok with you as a lynch right now and i figured that the potential of learning a bit more of info is worth the vote on you. And from my perspective the knowledge that i'm voting for you is partially for info shouldn't affect the info we could gain to much.

At least thats how i'm thinking of it.

yuma = 2.4 probably my second towniest read right now. (and now I just enabled decimals)

Can you try to give reasons for why you think yuma is town?

Hmm sure.

so from the beginning hes seemed just generally towny in being active and some posts. So that probably made him a slight town in my eyes.

then he posted about how hes trying to change his meta a bit this game which in my eyes seems more likely to happen as town then scum by a bit. Since scum probably wants to emulate their old meta instead of changing it as it can be a bit risky to change as scum. so a bit more mild town points.

but also. Its feeling like its gut feelings on me? Thats alright to have that as your reason for voting me. But it doesn't really give me much to explain why your wrong.

you haven't been a townread, a couple of players have pointed out scummish things you have done (I haven't really been super-duper impressed with those points, but they are points) and I saw that like seven people were voting for people with only one vote on them (including me) so I went back to voting for you.

and then this post made me feel much townier on him. As it really feels like an honest town perspective instead of a scum one.

[Awaclus]

so i am doing what i said and reading dwarf mafia and while i am only in the midst of day1 i am already seeing something... not what awaclus perhaps wants me to see (his town narrative thing working...) but i am seeing a different awaclus.

Yeah, you were seeing a NEET Awaclus as opposed to the university student Awaclus you're seeing now.

that very well could be and i don't want to criticize your or anyone else's involvement. but i will say that apart from activity the quality of your posts are different. you are still posting here... on a regular basis but nearly all posts are lacking in substance where in that game it was far for of a mix.

i think you have been active enough here to have put forward more than you have and less than i would have expected from that game.

Well, it's not that I don't have time, it's that there are other things on my mind, which means that I'm less likely to think about Mafia when I'm not posting. As a result, every time I open this thread, I have to reorganize my thoughts and recall what was going on in this game again, rather than just opening it and immediately knowing what's going on, and so it's easier to just reply to the posts about my play style etc. which I can do without having to think much. Well, now that there's a night in the other game, I've been able to focus more on this game, and I don't think there should be a major difference between my recent posts and my posts in the Dwarf Fortress mafia.

[Twistedarcher]

The amount of people willing to lynch both me and PPS is giving me alarm bells.

I would feel the same thing if I were you and PPS was my scum partner 

Har har

[yuma]

thanks for linking those

anyone else having a really hard time loading pages (like 2-3 minutes)

the post about me is hard to fairly analyze as i tend to respond to town reads on me with an automaic null. I have been burned by that too many times in the past... and I don't necessarily see anything that jumps out at me in the way that he came to that conclusion

and as for the other quote I actually lean scummy on it, so I guess I would say I disagree with your conclusion about hydrad...

[Witherweaver]

I'm promoting Hydrad from want to lynch to "eh", but would still lynch.  I see Faust's point somewhat, though the problem is those posts were the first time Hydrad commented on something actually going on in the game, and that after much prompting.  Hydrad not commenting on actual game is somewhat of a scum tell for him.

[yuma]

... and I don't think there should be a major difference between my recent posts and my posts in the Dwarf Fortress mafia.

well, for example one major difference in this game is that you haven't had a serious vote on anyone all game, whereas in the other you had at least three that i can remember of the top of my head (granted that was over the course of almost he whole day1--i am not quite finished with that day yet--, but i think at least two were somewhat early in the game) when the quality over all of the "cases" or whatever you want to call it appear to be equal.

so there is at least that and i feel there are other non-quantifiable differences as well

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm not dead!

Looks like I'll be back to normal around Monday, should have some time before then.  During this bout of insomnia-while-stealing-my-brother's-laptop, I'm going to read some, but probably can't catch up on everything.

Anyone who's awake want to direct me to something in particular I should read/comment on?

I'll read these pages a dozen times in my inevitable rereads over the course of the game, so I'm okay focussing on some random bit for now to help get into it.

If not, I'll just start from Page 1.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Okay, well tired and having trouble focusing, but here are my thoughts based on the last few pages, as they occur to me working backwards.

Awaclus in #731 seems like scum!Awaclus.  I like him trying to change his meta, and I think I've been figuring him out a bit lately, but this doesn't look like the "being more helpful as town to be less obvious" change, this feels like an accidental reversion to how he defended himself as scum in the past.

Also I notice his vote is on me for being V/LA, so that's super helpful.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm with Faust on Town!Hydrad, based on those 2 posts at least.

Definitely need to read Yuma/Faust in detail later, but I don't really want to lynch either of them today.  I hate "Day 1 Pass" mentality (I think that ruled out the entire scumteam in some recent game), and if there's a strong case on either of them I'd like to hear it (or find it as I read) but if it's going to be a mediocre case, someone less useful than either of them would be much preferred.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I like chairs being willing to jump out and say he's voting Sam for info.  Townread on chairs.

I don't know what to think about Sam, I have an instinctive urge to lynch based on his reaction to Yuma's/TA's pressure, but Faust and Ash's uncertainty based on their past experience with him gives me pause, it's unlikely that just happens to be the scumteam, and certain players do draw out those reactions.  No snap read on Sam, I'm going to have to find some time to put some work into him.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

To clarify, that chairs is willing to lynch him for info.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Hydrad's scummy waffling on voting TA only for pressure seems like town!scummy Hydrad...

One does not simply read Hydrad.

[Awaclus]

Okay, well tired and having trouble focusing, but here are my thoughts based on the last few pages, as they occur to me working backwards.

Awaclus in #731 seems like scum!Awaclus.  I like him trying to change his meta, and I think I've been figuring him out a bit lately, but this doesn't look like the "being more helpful as town to be less obvious" change, this feels like an accidental reversion to how he defended himself as scum in the past.

Also I notice his vote is on me for being V/LA, so that's super helpful.

I'm not trying to change my meta, this is how I've always played.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Vote: Awaclus

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So I should be back online tomorrow night with any luck, and if not I'll definitely find time to be on this weekend.  Anyone want to make/summarize/link a nice case on TA?  He looks like one of the frontrunners and I'm not really sure why based on what I've read so far.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Okay, time to sleep.  Based on roughly the last 1/3 of the game, I have reduced the people I am willing to vote for today down to:

Lynch Pool:
    Awaclus
    TwistedArcher
    Jimmmmm
    pingpongsam

I don't have any particular read on TA or Jimmmmmmmmmmmm.
I'm conflicted about Sam, need to read all his posts and think a bunch when I can think.
Awaclus is scum.

Let's all lynch Awaclus.

[Awaclus]

Awaclus is scum.

Let's all lynch Awaclus.

I'm not scum and that's a bad idea.

[faust]

Okay, time to sleep.  Based on roughly the last 1/3 of the game, I have reduced the people I am willing to vote for today down to:

Lynch Pool:
    Awaclus
    TwistedArcher
    Jimmmmm
    pingpongsam

That's quite the list... where does this comes from? What about other players you haven't adressed? ashersky, WW (and yuma really). I don't feel comfortable at all with you coming in here with scum reads on the exact players that are under suspicion, and noone else.

[faust]

I feel I should expand on yuma...

In the beginning, this was just the fact that I didn't get a town vibe from any of yuma's posts. If you look at my reads, I have reasons to think a lot of people are town, and with yuma nothing like that ever popped up.

THe other thing is his opinions seem uncharacteristically streamlined. The suspicion on PPS was easily justified and much sheeped even though it's probably mostly a playstyle thing. And then - Hydrad and Awaclus. I mean, really? These are just the go-to mislynch candidates in this game. And I don't agree with any of the reasoning there, it seems weak. Both Hydrad and Awaclus are townier than normal. Scolding Awaclus for not having put down a vote is fine, but to think that's scummy is ridiculous. It's so easy to throw out votes as scum.

Basically, yuma is doing a lot of talking and that's fine, but the substance is sort of lacking for me. I don't even know how he feels about other players in this game, like ashersky or WW, because he is so focused on his scum reads.

[Hydrad]

I'm promoting Hydrad from want to lynch to "eh", but would still lynch.  I see Faust's point somewhat, though the problem is those posts were the first time Hydrad commented on something actually going on in the game, and that after much prompting.  Hydrad not commenting on actual game is somewhat of a scum tell for him.

Sorry I'll keep trying to comment on the game more. Then I become an IC! foolproof.

[Hydrad]

Okay, time to sleep.  Based on roughly the last 1/3 of the game, I have reduced the people I am willing to vote for today down to:

Lynch Pool:
    Awaclus
    TwistedArcher
    Jimmmmm
    pingpongsam

That's quite the list... where does this comes from? What about other players you haven't adressed? ashersky, WW (and yuma really). I don't feel comfortable at all with you coming in here with scum reads on the exact players that are under suspicion, and noone else.

I agree with this feeling!

[yuma]

Okay, time to sleep.  Based on roughly the last 1/3 of the game, I have reduced the people I am willing to vote for today down to:

Lynch Pool:
    Awaclus
    TwistedArcher
    Jimmmmm
    pingpongsam

That's quite the list... where does this comes from? What about other players you haven't adressed? ashersky, WW (and yuma really). I don't feel comfortable at all with you coming in here with scum reads on the exact players that are under suspicion, and noone else.

i honestly have no problem with it... he comes in after being totally absent and only a few days from deadline... pretty unique circumstances

the players he lists ARE the ones that have been suspicious, that is why people gave voted for them. do you want him to force scum reads on people just to be unique and different and to set an agenda contrary to what town has a whole has read the game...? cause that would be scummy.

and he doesn't even do fully what you accuse him of doing. he has a town read on hydrad, town read on chairs, you and gk are quasi-ic.... and said he doesn't want to lynch me... so he is suspicious because he left off having good reads on two players that are notoriously hard to read day1?

[yuma]

I feel I should expand on yuma...

In the beginning, this was just the fact that I didn't get a town vibe from any of yuma's posts. If you look at my reads, I have reasons to think a lot of people are town, and with yuma nothing like that ever popped up.

THe other thing is his opinions seem uncharacteristically streamlined. The suspicion on PPS was easily justified and much sheeped even though it's probably mostly a playstyle thing. And then - Hydrad and Awaclus. I mean, really? These are just the go-to mislynch candidates in this game. And I don't agree with any of the reasoning there, it seems weak. Both Hydrad and Awaclus are townier than normal. Scolding Awaclus for not having put down a vote is fine, but to think that's scummy is ridiculous. It's so easy to throw out votes as scum.

Basically, yuma is doing a lot of talking and that's fine, but the substance is sort of lacking for me. I don't even know how he feels about other players in this game, like ashersky or WW, because he is so focused on his scum reads.

i don't think at this point anyone is questioning the authenticity of your reads, at least until given a reason to be skeptical of your alignment, so you dont need to justify it...

i don't really know what you mean by streamlined...

sure i initially sheeped the case on pps. that doesn't make it wrong though. i am reading dwarf mafia and just saw everyone sheep your vote on TA in that game. if only you had called them out for sheeping there ta might have lived... or is it only sheeping when it is on a case you disagree with?

what makes the votes on hydrad and awaclus "easy mislynches?" didn't we stop using that phrase forever ago because it rarely applies...? and you are majorly dumbing down my points on awaclus

like i said above about uos, it isn't scummy to not have good reads on some people (ww and ash in my case are very null, believe i have stated that before). i have shared town reads on ta, chairs and obviously the quasi-ics. players don't need a solid read on everyone in the game day1!

i kinda feel like the main reason (but i wont say the only reason) you find me suspicious is because we have different reads. which is fine. i would probably intrinsically find you scummy as well if not for your icish status

[gkrieg13]

I feel yuma has been very towny!  He has been moving the conversation along, trying to get good reactions out of people.  He has created valuable interactions with a lot of the players, and it feels like he has been genuinely scum hunting.

The post I am referring to:
 

I feel I should expand on yuma...

In the beginning, this was just the fact that I didn't get a town vibe from any of yuma's posts. If you look at my reads, I have reasons to think a lot of people are town, and with yuma nothing like that ever popped up.

THe other thing is his opinions seem uncharacteristically streamlined. The suspicion on PPS was easily justified and much sheeped even though it's probably mostly a playstyle thing. And then - Hydrad and Awaclus. I mean, really? These are just the go-to mislynch candidates in this game. And I don't agree with any of the reasoning there, it seems weak. Both Hydrad and Awaclus are townier than normal. Scolding Awaclus for not having put down a vote is fine, but to think that's scummy is ridiculous. It's so easy to throw out votes as scum.

Basically, yuma is doing a lot of talking and that's fine, but the substance is sort of lacking for me. I don't even know how he feels about other players in this game, like ashersky or WW, because he is so focused on his scum reads.

I feel like Hydrad doesn't seem any townier than normal.  His posts have been lacking much content and his reads are off in my opinion.  He seems like the Hydrad from Mistborn to me. 

Awaclus not putting a vote down is scummy.  It is even scummier for Awaclus because if he doesn't give us any information on his reads, his votes are basically the only thing that do give us information. 

Being focused on your scum reads is not bad on D1.  It's too hard to keep tabs on everyone, so it makes sense to focus on the people that you are finding scummy until you are convinced they are town. 

[Witherweaver]

You guys have been leaving out the

Vote: Awaclus

part of your posts.

[yuma]

Being focused on your scum reads is not bad on D1.  It's too hard to keep tabs on everyone, so it makes sense to focus on the people that you are finding scummy until you are convinced they are town.

Well I actually don't totally agree with that, and I don't think that is what I am doing... I approach day1 assuming everyone is town and then look for reasons that they are not (compared to what I think is awaclus who looks for reasons why they continue to be town, which I just find confusing, but maybe I am still understanding him wrong) because 8 out of the 11 are going to be town.

There are a handful that have seemed more town and added to that bonus (quasi-IC, chairs, kinda TA) and then others that are still in that "all things being equal they are more likely town than not cause probability!" and a handful that have been scummy and I am going to point out that scumminess far more than saying over and over again, "null read on ash and WW" "still a null read on ash and WW" cause that doesn't move the game forward at all

[ashersky]

Tunnely WW is scummy.

[Witherweaver]

Not if he's scum!

[Witherweaver]

Well not if he's Town, either.

[ashersky]

Not if he's scum!

Well not if he's Town, either.

Scum slip.

[yuma]

Not if he's scum!

Well not if he's Town, either.

Scum slip.

Huh... I guess you could say that, but I got a town read off it.

[Witherweaver]

Not if he's scum!

Well not if he's Town, either.

Scum slip.

Har har

[ashersky]

Not if he's scum!

Well not if he's Town, either.

Scum slip.

Huh... I guess you could say that, but I got a town read off it.

I don't mean it in the traditional sense of him saying something accidentally that gives him away.

It's that I made a fairly innocuous comment on his behavior, and he literally defended his behavior conditionally.  Then he caught it right away and corrected it.

It's like when scum accidentally uses <b> here, then immediately points it out like "in before scumslip!."

[Witherweaver]

The second one isn't convincing to anyone who doesn't know my alignment (for which the discussion is moot anyway).  But if we lynch Awaclus and he is scum, you can comfortably conclude that I'm not scum.  So, let's try it. 

Of course it may be the case that Awaclus is Town, in which case it's still true that I'm not scum but you can't comfortably conclude that.  Nor can you comfortably conclude that I'm scum, but you may not be all that convinced by it.

Heck, I just want to lynch someone.

[faust]

Heck, I just want to lynch someone.

How about yuma?

[Witherweaver]

Heck, I just want to lynch someone.

How about yuma?

Sure!  But Awaclus has more votes.

[faust]

I feel yuma has been very towny!  He has been moving the conversation along, trying to get good reactions out of people.  He has created valuable interactions with a lot of the players, and it feels like he has been genuinely scum hunting.

The first three are things yuma would do as any alignment, and well his scumhunting does not feel genuine to me.

[faust]

Heck, I just want to lynch someone.

How about yuma?

Sure!  But Awaclus has more votes.

There are still about 3 days left to the deadline.We are not in "vote people with a lot of votes" territory.

[pingpongsam]

Overall I don't find umbrage' sudden read deposit as much more than null. If I were going to read anything into it I would find it odd that he seems fairl uncommitted. I would think if I came into this game at this stage I would probably get a much more committed read on somebody somewhere. That said, I don't really have an issue with painting him scummy for it either because I can see that point of view I just don't feel it.

I'm fairly null on everyone at this point. I would consider lynches for krieg, Yuma, TA, and Jimmmmm but I'd be hard pressed to push any of them. Faust is the only person I simply will not lynch today.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.7

Awaclus (3): yuma, UmbrageOfSnow, Witherweaver
pingpongsam (3): Twistedarcher, ashersky, chairs
yuma (1): faust
Twistedarcher (1): Hydrad
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Awaclus
Hydrad (1): gkrieg13

Not Voting (2): Jimmmmm, pingpongsam

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends at Sep 21, 03 PM forum time Forum Time. That is in 3 days and 0+ hours.

[Witherweaver]

Heck, I just want to lynch someone.

How about yuma?

Sure!  But Awaclus has more votes.

There are still about 3 days left to the deadline.We are not in "vote people with a lot of votes" territory.

There haven't been many wagons at all except for the PPS ones.  Not sure if anyone else has gotten more than three votes. Feels odd.

PPS: Gkrieg is the one that claimed Mason.

[faust]

what makes the votes on hydrad and awaclus "easy mislynches?" didn't we stop using that phrase forever ago because it rarely applies...? and you are majorly dumbing down my points on awaclus

If you do not agree that Awaclus is easier to get lynched than say, you or ashersky, that's insane. You may not have played a lot of games with these guys, but they get lynched all the time, and mostly it's the lynch that town stares at and wonders "why did we do that?" afterwards.

[Witherweaver]

I don't think Awaclus is voting Umbrage.

[Awaclus]

I don't think Awaclus is voting Umbrage.

I think he is. It's all yuma's fault though.

[Witherweaver]

I don't think Awaclus is voting Umbrage.

I think he is. It's all yuma's fault though.

Oh, I see.  So why Umbrage?

[chairs]

vote: WW.

[ashersky]

Vote: WW

[Witherweaver]

Hooray

[Awaclus]

Oh, I see.  So why Umbrage?

Because he wasn't posting much and I didn't remember that he was V/LA.

[yuma]

what makes the votes on hydrad and awaclus "easy mislynches?" didn't we stop using that phrase forever ago because it rarely applies...? and you are majorly dumbing down my points on awaclus

If you do not agree that Awaclus is easier to get lynched than say, you or ashersky, that's insane. You may not have played a lot of games with these guys, but they get lynched all the time, and mostly it's the lynch that town stares at and wonders "why did we do that?" afterwards.

doesn't town always stare at mislynches and wonder "why did we do that"?

if a town doesn't do that with any mislynch they are playing the game wrong. and weren't you the one that told me not to rely on information from other people that was unsubstantiated?

i think anyone is capable of being lynched any day. i think some people play townier and are thus less likely to be lynched (those people that are scum) get fleshed out on later days. but it sounds like right now you want me to ignore (what is to me) obvious scummy behavior just because they often have scummy behavior... i for one have been burned too many times by ignoring scummy behavior from say... mail-mi, arch, sudgy or others like that... and saw them survive to win games.

i lynch scummy behavior, not people who are acting townie but who are probably hiding their scummy behavior too well.... especially day1

[yuma]

Heck, I just want to lynch someone.

How about yuma?

[pingpongsam]

Heck, I just want to lynch someone.

How about yuma?

Sure!  But Awaclus has more votes.

There are still about 3 days left to the deadline.We are not in "vote people with a lot of votes" territory.

There haven't been many wagons at all except for the PPS ones.  Not sure if anyone else has gotten more than three votes. Feels odd.

PPS: Gkrieg is the one that claimed Mason.

Oh, yeah. I guess that gives a pass then. My statement was based on post content alone.

[yuma]

vote: pps

[Witherweaver]

Oh, I see.  So why Umbrage?

Because he wasn't posting much and I didn't remember that he was V/LA.

Strangely enough, this is the first thing Awaclus said that made me not want to lynch him.

I'm still lynch hungry, though.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.8

Awaclus (2): UmbrageOfSnow, Witherweaver
Witherweaver (2): chairs, ashersky
pingpongsam (2): Twistedarcher, yuma
yuma (1): faust
Twistedarcher (1): Hydrad
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Awaclus
Hydrad (1): gkrieg13

Not Voting (2): Jimmmmm, pingpongsam

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends at Sep 21, 03 PM forum time Forum Time. That is in 2 days and 21+ hours.

[yuma]

Heck, I just want to lynch someone.

How about yuma?

Sure!  But Awaclus has more votes.

There are still about 3 days left to the deadline.We are not in "vote people with a lot of votes" territory.

I think we are. Two of those days are weekends, well three really since friday often feels like a pre-saturday or here,and I think speak for many of us that I am not sure I will be around much during thenweekend or necessarily at the deadline. I will try but no guarantees. So in reality of posting amount we have like 1.5 days. Not quite crunch time but close enough that people either need to vote for people with no or one vote or else move elsewhere. It doesn't look like people are going to vote for me, everyone has passed when presented with the opportunity so I think you should move your vote elsewhere. Same goes for those in isolation pushing cases or votes that no one else is going to join...

[yuma]

Vote: awaclus

[gkrieg13]

vote: WW

[Witherweaver]

vote: WW

You're messing up all kinds of stuff here.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'll come read some more stuff later, but to expand on my Awaclus vote:

He's defending himself and explaining in a way that mirrors his self-claimed scum meta more than his town meta.  And he's claiming that he's not trying to change his meta as town.

Being a bit more helpful has been working out for him lately, and he got burned going hard-core unhelpful as scum in Pony Pony Mafia trying to imitate his town meta and overshooting it.

We can't just never lynch Awaclus because he's always scummy.  Yes, he is easier to get lynched than Yuma or Faust or Ash for that reason, but he's going to be scum sometimes.  And the way to catch scum!Awaclus is meta.  His response to Yuma I pointed out last night looks like the kind of explanation he gives of himself when he's scum.  And the way he responded to my comment about him wanting to change his meta may as well be a scum claim.  Plus it reminds me of how he reacts to meta pressure when he's worried about it.

[Awaclus]

He's defending himself and explaining in a way that mirrors his self-claimed scum meta more than his town meta.

I don't even have any scum reads to speak of, how could I possibly have explained anything in a way that mirrors my scum meta?

[Witherweaver]

He's defending himself and explaining in a way that mirrors his self-claimed scum meta more than his town meta.

I don't even have any scum reads to speak of, how could I possibly have explained anything in a way that mirrors my scum meta?

Scenario: your fabrication of scum reads in your last scum game was pretty transparent, so scum!you thinks it's better to claim no reads at all.

[Witherweaver]

It's just a modification of the "I have too many town reads" thing that scum likes to do to maintain some Day 1 presence.  I think Yuma was also projecting this kind of thing earlier.

[yuma]

It's just a modification of the "I have too many town reads" thing that scum likes to do to maintain some Day 1 presence.  I think Yuma was also projecting this kind of thing earlier.

except mine was really early in the day and was immediately followed up by a lot of probing and asking questions and participating in a way that allowed me to form reads on people that i have publicly posted and followed up with votes...

i don't think i am the best comparison here...

[Witherweaver]

It's just a modification of the "I have too many town reads" thing that scum likes to do to maintain some Day 1 presence.  I think Yuma was also projecting this kind of thing earlier.

except mine was really early in the day and was immediately followed up by a lot of probing and asking questions and participating in a way that allowed me to form reads on people that i have publicly posted and followed up with votes...

i don't think i am the best comparison here...

It was something I noticed at the time and remembered. 

[Awaclus]

Scenario: your fabrication of scum reads in your last scum game was pretty transparent, so scum!you thinks it's better to claim no reads at all.

I got an MVP for my last scum game though.

[Twistedarcher]

Hey I'm out of town this weekend. Still want pps but i will check in sunday night and see what's up.

[Witherweaver]

Scenario: your fabrication of scum reads in your last scum game was pretty transparent, so scum!you thinks it's better to claim no reads at all.

I got an MVP for my last scum game though.

I'm referring to Pony Mafia.  That's the last one I remember. 

[Awaclus]

I'm referring to Pony Mafia.  That's the last one I remember.

I'm referring to Buffy/Angel Mafia. I don't remember which one of them started later, but Buffy ended later (especially my life in that game ended a lot later than it did in Pony Mafia).

[Witherweaver]

Buffy may have been more recent; I hadn't thought of it.  Though there you were third party, not Mafia.

[Jimmmmm]

I think pps is Frustrated Townish.

[Jimmmmm]

Hmm, I'm finding TA Townish as well, funnily enough.

[yuma]

I think pps is Frustrated Townish.

what does he have to be frustrated about... he brought much of it on himself...

[Jimmmmm]

I think pps is Frustrated Townish.

what does he have to be frustrated about... he brought much of it on himself...

By acting "scummy"?

I get frustrated because of myself all the time.

[Witherweaver]

I think pps is Frustrated Townish.

what does he have to be frustrated about... he brought much of it on himself...

By acting "scummy"?

I get frustrated because of myself all the time.

So you're town too?

[Awaclus]

Buffy may have been more recent; I hadn't thought of it.  Though there you were third party, not Mafia.

Well, we didn't have a NK, but we did have a scum win con.

[Jimmmmm]

I'm out of town

Scumslip!

[ashersky]

I'm out of town

Scumslip!

+9001

[faust]

doesn't town always stare at mislynches and wonder "why did we do that"?

Not really. A mislynch can provoke a range of reactions from "well, he really had it coming" to "I guess we should look at TA for scum".

if a town doesn't do that with any mislynch they are playing the game wrong. and weren't you the one that told me not to rely on information from other people that was unsubstantiated?

You're free to read some games yourself.

i think anyone is capable of being lynched any day. i think some people play townier and are thus less likely to be lynched (those people that are scum) get fleshed out on later days. but it sounds like right now you want me to ignore (what is to me) obvious scummy behavior just because they often have scummy behavior... i for one have been burned too many times by ignoring scummy behavior from say... mail-mi, arch, sudgy or others like that... and saw them survive to win games.

I do not want you to ignore "obvious scummy behaviour", I would just like you to question the "obviousness" of that behaviour, because scummy behaviour is rarely obvious.

i lynch scummy behavior, not people who are acting townie but who are probably hiding their scummy behavior too well.... especially day1

May I ask why you included this sentence in your post?

[faust]

Heck, I just want to lynch someone.

How about yuma?

Tunnel.jpg

And what is that for? Are you trying to ridicule my case on you so nobody listens?

[faust]

He's defending himself and explaining in a way that mirrors his self-claimed scum meta more than his town meta.  And he's claiming that he's not trying to change his meta as town.

Being a bit more helpful has been working out for him lately, and he got burned going hard-core unhelpful as scum in Pony Pony Mafia trying to imitate his town meta and overshooting it.

Can you substantiate this? You're just making a blanket statement that is not backed up at all, and goes contrary to my perception.

[faust]

Vote: Jimmmmm until he finally puts down a vote.

[faust]

Can any of the people voting for Awaclus clearly state their reasons? Because I don't get much more here than "he's obvscum" (yuma), "he's behaving according to his scum meta" (UoS), "you all should vote for him" (WW) without any backing up at all.

[Jimmmmm]

Vote: Jimmmmm until he finally puts down a vote.

Vote: faust

[faust]

Vote: Jimmmmm until he finally puts down a vote.

Vote: faust

I think I will leave my vote on Jimmmmm until he stops voting for the quasi-IC.

[Jimmmmm]

Vote: Jimmmmm until he finally puts down a vote.

Vote: faust

I think I will leave my vote on Jimmmmm until he stops voting for the quasi-IC.

Sorry, I still haven't fully caught up. Are you the other Mason?

[Jimmmmm]

Or the UB.

[Jimmmmm]

Let's stop these accusations right there.

I am the Universal Backup.

Found it. Unvote

[ashersky]

I'm with faust so far, which scares me.

His fight with yuma reminds me of his fights with me, and them's usually town vs. town.

I like my WW vote -- he's been silly and lacking in content all day.

[faust]

I like my WW vote -- he's been silly and lacking in content all day.

My gut says vote for WW also, but I don't trust my gut with WW. He is usually like this D1, and I usually find him scummy. This time, I found something like a town slip, so I won't vote for him today.

[yuma]

I do not want you to ignore "obvious scummy behaviour", I would just like you to question the "obviousness" of that behaviour, because scummy behaviour is rarely obvious.

ok. if I had gone the whole day w/o voting for someone, or giving reads, or asking questions to try and get reads you would be all over me. if ash was acting this way, we both would be all over him. if you were acting this way, I'd be all over you! right?

and why? because it is obvious scummy behavior to avoid voting, giving reads or participtating. why? because scum gains an advantage by doing this, town doesn't.

so right now awaclus is being obviously scummy. i agree that doesn't mean he is obviously scum. but when there isn't someone that is obviously (or even has a high potential of being scum based on day1 play) scum i would rather lynch someone who has been acting scummy than some one acting townie

now obvious scum play doesn't always mean they are scum, but it often does and in this game often is good enough.

[yuma]

if a town doesn't do that with any mislynch they are playing the game wrong. and weren't you the one that told me not to rely on information from other people that was unsubstantiated?

You're free to read some games yourself.
[/quote]

back off man.

i have been currently reading dwarf mafia (you expect me to read 1year's worth of games in two weeks? that ain't going to happen...) to try and substantiate and posted thoughts that i feel backed up my points on awaclus.

[yuma]

May I ask why you included this sentence in your post?

and i tried to answer this question in the post before last...

[yuma]

And what is that for? Are you trying to ridicule my case on you so nobody listens?

yes, well not so much your case but your continued pressuring of other people to vote for when they have all been given a chance to look at your case and said, "meh" and haven't voted for me.

You might think your case is great. I obviously don't. And it looks like pretty much everyone else agrees with me on this, otherwise I would have a bunch of votes on me.

And since you are quasi-IC I know (and they probably think) that it would be more beneficial to town to move your vote and attention elsewhere to try and lynch actually mafia.

Slight, humorous ridicule is a perfectly acceptable way to try and accomplish this.

[yuma]

Can any of the people voting for Awaclus clearly state their reasons? Because I don't get much more here than "he's obvscum" (yuma)

like i said before i dont think he is obvscum. i think he is obviously being scummy

and that the meta analysis i have done show a difference between confirmed town awaclus and this one (even taking into account the availability constraints he has this time around)

[pingpongsam]

Aggressive and unapologetic town play is easily read as scum. Having near IC status affords aggressive an unapologetic town play. That this is obvious makes me question yuma's rhetoric that Faust is playing obviously scummy.

[yuma]

Aggressive and unapologetic town play is easily read as scum. Having near IC status affords aggressive an unapologetic town play. That this is obvious makes me question yuma's rhetoric that Faust is playing obviously scummy.

i never said faust was playing obviously scummy. I said awaclus was playing obviously scummy. I encourage you to reread if you doubt this statement.

[pingpongsam]

You are right, I misread.

[Witherweaver]

I'm with faust so far, which scares me.

His fight with yuma reminds me of his fights with me, and them's usually town vs. town.

I like my WW vote -- he's been silly and lacking in content all day.

Lacking in content isnt true.

[Jimmmmm]

I like my WW vote -- he's been silly and lacking in content all day.

My gut says vote for WW also, but I don't trust my gut with WW. He is usually like this D1, and I usually find him scummy. This time, I found something like a town slip, so I won't vote for him today.

Does forgetting a scum role really constitute a Townslip? Aren't all we doing with that encouraging people not to read the setup properly and giving scum an easy way to get Town cred?

[faust]

I like my WW vote -- he's been silly and lacking in content all day.

My gut says vote for WW also, but I don't trust my gut with WW. He is usually like this D1, and I usually find him scummy. This time, I found something like a town slip, so I won't vote for him today.

Does forgetting a scum role really constitute a Townslip? Aren't all we doing with that encouraging people not to read the setup properly and giving scum an easy way to get Town cred?

I'm not saying it can't be faked, but faking takes some serious effort. The post in question didn't seem like a post designed for a fake townslip to me. And anyway, I am notoriously bad at reading WW, so I'm happy about every clear sign I get.

[yuma]

in my experience most setup mistakes are....

wait for it....

MISTAKES!!!

becoming scum does not make one a robot that obtains a perfect knowledge of setup specifics that can be recalled any time with perfect accuracy.

scum makes setup mistakes just as often as town (ratio-wise). so it shouldn't be a sign of scumminess or a sign of towniness... it is completely and totally null.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.9

Awaclus (3): UmbrageOfSnow, Witherweaver, yuma
Witherweaver (3): chairs, ashersky, gkrieg13
pingpongsam (1): Twistedarcher
Twistedarcher (1): Hydrad
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Awaclus
Jimmmmm (1): faust

Not Voting (2): pingpongsam, Jimmmmm

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends at Sep 21, 03 PM forum time. That is in 2 days and 2+ hours.

[yuma]

vote: ww

[Jimmmmm]

I like my WW vote -- he's been silly and lacking in content all day.

My gut says vote for WW also, but I don't trust my gut with WW. He is usually like this D1, and I usually find him scummy. This time, I found something like a town slip, so I won't vote for him today.

Does forgetting a scum role really constitute a Townslip? Aren't all we doing with that encouraging people not to read the setup properly and giving scum an easy way to get Town cred?

I'm not saying it can't be faked, but faking takes some serious effort. The post in question didn't seem like a post designed for a fake townslip to me. And anyway, I am notoriously bad at reading WW, so I'm happy about every clear sign I get.

How hard is it to not pay attention to possible setups?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

These are the posts that pinged me on Awaclus:

I am legitimately curious about this. Why do you not post explanations? Do you answer people when they ask for explanations? (answering this question in a sense answers that question...) Do you see any value in posting explanations when other people post explanation or do you think we should all play this way? Basically I am wondering what you see as the benefit because if you see it, and if it really exists, maybe I should be posting with less public explanation...

Well, the experience I have had as playing scum is that when people explain their scum reads on me, it's a lot easier for me to explain them away. As town, I don't think I need to hear the explanations for scum reads on me to argue against them, because I can just point to the consistent town narrative that I know for a fact is there, regardless of what the argument against me supposedly is. And I don't really want scum to explain my scum read on them away, so that's why I generally don't explain them. I might actually explain town reads sometimes; sometimes I can't be bothered with it if I think the reason should be obvious anyway.

Most of the time, I do actually answer people when they ask for explanations, but the answer I tend to give in this situation is "because you're scum".

There is certainly value in posting explanations sometimes, e.g. when you notice something nobody else has noticed, or possibly have an investigative result on someone. Even in the former case, I like to just quote the posts of interest to draw attention to them without much further explanation, but at that point it doesn't really make a difference either way so it's more of a stylistic thing. I do think that other people oftentimes explain things too much when it's not really useful to do so. I'm not really sure what the perfect balance is, though.

It also lets you fake reads much easier as scum.  If you don't prevent reasons or explanations for your (honest) reads, then you can argue that you can't be held accountable for not explaining your fabricated reads.

Which is 100% irrelevant because you can always fabricate an explanation as easily as you can fabricate a read in the first place.

I am actually voting awalcus

You might need to spell my name correctly if you want the vote to count.

so i am doing what i said and reading dwarf mafia and while i am only in the midst of day1 i am already seeing something... not what awaclus perhaps wants me to see (his town narrative thing working...) but i am seeing a different awaclus.

Yeah, you were seeing a NEET Awaclus as opposed to the university student Awaclus you're seeing now.

that very well could be and i don't want to criticize your or anyone else's involvement. but i will say that apart from activity the quality of your posts are different. you are still posting here... on a regular basis but nearly all posts are lacking in substance where in that game it was far for of a mix.

i think you have been active enough here to have put forward more than you have and less than i would have expected from that game.

Well, it's not that I don't have time, it's that there are other things on my mind, which means that I'm less likely to think about Mafia when I'm not posting. As a result, every time I open this thread, I have to reorganize my thoughts and recall what was going on in this game again, rather than just opening it and immediately knowing what's going on, and so it's easier to just reply to the posts about my play style etc. which I can do without having to think much. Well, now that there's a night in the other game, I've been able to focus more on this game, and I don't think there should be a major difference between my recent posts and my posts in the Dwarf Fortress mafia.

Okay, well tired and having trouble focusing, but here are my thoughts based on the last few pages, as they occur to me working backwards.

Awaclus in #731 seems like scum!Awaclus.  I like him trying to change his meta, and I think I've been figuring him out a bit lately, but this doesn't look like the "being more helpful as town to be less obvious" change, this feels like an accidental reversion to how he defended himself as scum in the past.

Also I notice his vote is on me for being V/LA, so that's super helpful.

I'm not trying to change my meta, this is how I've always played.

I don't have time to pull quotes from other games, but the way he insists this is all standard, while something he always does, seem harder here, and it did in Pony Pony Mafia.  Likewise he's giving a bit more to defending himself as in his older scum games, while trying to avoid explaining reads as a change.

I'm having trouble explaining it, but read through these quotes slowly, they're the posts that bug me.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Alternatively, because Awaclus is scum.

[Witherweaver]

I like my WW vote -- he's been silly and lacking in content all day.

My gut says vote for WW also, but I don't trust my gut with WW. He is usually like this D1, and I usually find him scummy. This time, I found something like a town slip, so I won't vote for him today.

Does forgetting a scum role really constitute a Townslip? Aren't all we doing with that encouraging people not to read the setup properly and giving scum an easy way to get Town cred?

It's been well established that reading the setup is scummy.

Ironically, I checked the setup before I typed that post, because I wasn't certain what the roles were.  I missed the line that said there was a Godfather.

[faust]

How hard is it to not pay attention to possible setups?

Not hard. The point is, Godfather is ALWAYS in the setup. If WW was scum, he would absolutely know that there is a Godfather. So saying WW is scum implies that he consciously faked a town slip.

[faust]

vote: ww

Why?

[faust]

in my experience most setup mistakes are....

wait for it....

MISTAKES!!!

becoming scum does not make one a robot that obtains a perfect knowledge of setup specifics that can be recalled any time with perfect accuracy.

scum makes setup mistakes just as often as town (ratio-wise). so it shouldn't be a sign of scumminess or a sign of towniness... it is completely and totally null.

It is obvious that you have not thought this through.

[Witherweaver]

vote: ww

Why?

Yuma voted me?  First scummy vote on my wagon!

[yuma]

vote: ww

Why?

It's never to early to recklessly put someone to L-1, or L-whatever he is at.

[yuma]

in my experience most setup mistakes are....

wait for it....

MISTAKES!!!

becoming scum does not make one a robot that obtains a perfect knowledge of setup specifics that can be recalled any time with perfect accuracy.

scum makes setup mistakes just as often as town (ratio-wise). so it shouldn't be a sign of scumminess or a sign of towniness... it is completely and totally null.

It is obvious that you have not thought this through.

it is obvious that you are being condescending... and a wee bit arrogant

[yuma]

How hard is it to not pay attention to possible setups?

Not hard. The point is, Godfather is ALWAYS in the setup. If WW was scum, he would absolutely know that there is a Godfather. So saying WW is scum implies that he consciously faked a town slip.

he would absolutely know at one point. have you ever known something and then forgotten later? or is you mind like a steel trap? the only way ww would never forget about a godfather is if  was a godfather, if a scum buddy is though... very easy to forget that by just being human...

take a look at any scum qt, i guarantee that most have setup errors and assumptions that are wrong about the setup and their roles. it has happened to me, it happens to others...

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.10

Awaclus (2): UmbrageOfSnow, Witherweaver
Witherweaver (4): chairs, ashersky, gkrieg13, yuma
pingpongsam (1): Twistedarcher
Twistedarcher (1): Hydrad
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Awaclus
Jimmmmm (1): faust

Not Voting (2): pingpongsam, Jimmmmm

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends at Sep 21, 03 PM forum time. That is in 42h 18m.

[Jimmmmm]

How hard is it to not pay attention to possible setups?

Not hard. The point is, Godfather is ALWAYS in the setup. If WW was scum, he would absolutely know that there is a Godfather. So saying WW is scum implies that he consciously faked a town slip.

Okay, if Godfather is always in the setup maybe that's something, for Day 1 at least.

[yuma]

How hard is it to not pay attention to possible setups?

Not hard. The point is, Godfather is ALWAYS in the setup. If WW was scum, he would absolutely know that there is a Godfather. So saying WW is scum implies that he consciously faked a town slip.

Okay, if Godfather is always in the setup maybe that's something, for Day 1 at least.

It only means something if ww IS the godfather. 1/12 chance. Otherwise I also demand some credit for as Faust says "not thinking this through" meaning I didn't realize the godfather was always in the setup. Looks like same goes for jimmm.

So stop voting for me Faust...

[Witherweaver]

Too late I'm claiming IC, a la Robz.

Suckas!

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So if I act like I haven't read the setup next game, do I get a free pass too?

[Witherweaver]

So if I act like I haven't read the setup next game, do I get a free pass too?

Only if you actually don't read it.

But feel free to try to construct slips.

[yuma]

look, i once purposely started a game w/o looking at my pm (can't remember which, or even my role) and only looked at it about 5 rl days (must have been early days before the mods required you to state your role at game start) to potentially be able to create authentic reactions if i were scum with my hypothetical scum buddies...

true story...

people do all sorts of crazy stuff. but really what people do is forget specific details of fairly complex setups that start to blend together from game to game. it isn't scummy. it isn't townie it is null.

[ashersky]

Too late I'm claiming IC, a la Robz.

Suckas!

See, like, a few of these posts are fine because it's fun.  But this is what an overwhelming number of your posts are, and it's scummy.  It means there's nothing there to pin on you.  It's not adding anything to the discussion. 

I'm feeling even better about my vote.

[faust]

Ironically, I checked the setup before I typed that post, because I wasn't certain what the roles were.  I missed the line that said there was a Godfather.

That's exactly the town narrative I had in mind, and it's far from trivial to construct this.

[faust]

vote: ww

Why?

It's never to early to recklessly put someone to L-1, or L-whatever he is at.

L-3. That's gotta be scary for him.

So you have no thoughts of your own to add, yet you heavily criticize the notion that WW might be town because of that post?

[faust]

How hard is it to not pay attention to possible setups?

Not hard. The point is, Godfather is ALWAYS in the setup. If WW was scum, he would absolutely know that there is a Godfather. So saying WW is scum implies that he consciously faked a town slip.

he would absolutely know at one point. have you ever known something and then forgotten later? or is you mind like a steel trap? the only way ww would never forget about a godfather is if  was a godfather, if a scum buddy is though... very easy to forget that by just being human...

take a look at any scum qt, i guarantee that most have setup errors and assumptions that are wrong about the setup and their roles. it has happened to me, it happens to others...

Sure it happens. But the post in question was what, 2 hours into the game? 2 hours after mafia discussed their roles? I find it unlikely that someone would be that forgetful. And the town narrative makes a lot of sense here.

[yuma]

Nope, nope...

Ppe: 1

[faust]

So if I act like I haven't read the setup next game, do I get a free pass too?

If you do it convincingly, yes. You know, that's the thing about mafia: If you convincingly act as though you are town, you will get a pass. Shocker!

[yuma]

Whatever man. You want to win this pointless argument? You win. You have more mental stamina than me, good job. Have a town read on him. I am still going to vote for him, really just to spite you at this point cause I have no reads

[yuma]

Then let's for for the really townie people. No one has claimed mason, should we lynch gkreig then?

[ashersky]

Then let's for for the really townie people. No one has claimed mason, should we lynch gkreig then?

No.

[yuma]

I should play like this more often. It is way more fun than actually trying to win.

Ppe: that is no fun. I claim not mason

[Jimmmmm]

Then let's for for the really townie people. No one has claimed mason, should we lynch gkreig then?

No.

[yuma]

SDAMA

[faust]

Whatever man. You want to win this pointless argument? You win. You have more mental stamina than me, good job. Have a town read on him. I am still going to vote for him, really just to spite you at this point cause I have no reads

I'm sorry, have I in some way offended you? Why are you so desperately clinging to your scum read on WW? I really don't get it.

[faust]

Vote: yuma

I don't like this AtE, and it does not feel sincere.

[Witherweaver]

Whatever man. You want to win this pointless argument? You win. You have more mental stamina than me, good job. Have a town read on him. I am still going to vote for him, really just to spite you at this point cause I have no reads

Vote: Yuma

[pingpongsam]

I should play like this more often. It is way more fun than actually trying to win.

Ppe: that is no fun. I claim not mason

Welcome to the club.

[Witherweaver]

Too late I'm claiming IC, a la Robz.

Suckas!

See, like, a few of these posts are fine because it's fun.  But this is what an overwhelming number of your posts are, and it's scummy.  It means there's nothing there to pin on you.  It's not adding anything to the discussion. 

I'm feeling even better about my vote.

This seems odd to me, but I still think you're town.

[Witherweaver]

Also, in the immortal words of Hydrad, it's only  scummy if I'm scum.

[yuma]

Whatever man. You want to win this pointless argument? You win. You have more mental stamina than me, good job. Have a town read on him. I am still going to vote for him, really just to spite you at this point cause I have no reads

I'm sorry, have I in some way offended you? Why are you so desperately clinging to your scum read on WW? I really don't get it.

I don't have a scum read on ww. He is nullish, slight town. I have scum reads on awaclus, hydrad and pps. Keep up man. I thought your mind was a steel trap.

And no you haven't  "offended me." I am taking a no offense mindset after previous disasters, well at least trying to...

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.11

Awaclus (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Witherweaver (4): chairs, ashersky, gkrieg13, yuma
pingpongsam (1): Twistedarcher
yuma (2): faust, Witherweaver
Twistedarcher (1): Hydrad
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Awaclus

Not Voting (2): pingpongsam, Jimmmmm

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends at Sep 21, 03 PM forum time. That is in 26h 24m.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Good news everyone!

My laptop is restored to it's former glory as of today.

I probably won't be around exactly at deadline though, but I will be up until an hour or two before it.  Will be a bit distracted today, but should have a good amount of time tonight.

Does anyone want to give the case on WW, since he's the leading wagon at the moment?  (I probably won't have time to catch up on everything before deadline, but I can stay up to date on new stuff.)

[faust]

Good news everyone!

My laptop is restored to it's former glory as of today.

I probably won't be around exactly at deadline though, but I will be up until an hour or two before it.  Will be a bit distracted today, but should have a good amount of time tonight.

Does anyone want to give the case on WW, since he's the leading wagon at the moment?  (I probably won't have time to catch up on everything before deadline, but I can stay up to date on new stuff.)

yuma already formulated the case: He's townie. All you need to know.

[Witherweaver]

Whatever man. You want to win this pointless argument? You win. You have more mental stamina than me, good job. Have a town read on him. I am still going to vote for him, really just to spite you at this point cause I have no reads

I'm sorry, have I in some way offended you? Why are you so desperately clinging to your scum read on WW? I really don't get it.

I don't have a scum read on ww. He is nullish, slight town. I have scum reads on awaclus, hydrad and pps. Keep up man. I thought your mind was a steel trap.

And no you haven't  "offended me." I am taking a no offense mindset after previous disasters, well at least trying to...

But you're voting for me

[yuma]

Yes. Yes I am.

[Witherweaver]

Glad we got all that straightened out.

[yuma]

Glad we got all that straightened out.

Me too. I was really confused. What with Faust knowing my own reads better than I did!

[faust]

I may be old-fashioned, but I usually assume people vote for people they think are scum.

[yuma]

I may be old-fashioned, but I usually assume people vote for people they think are scum.

Really? Huh?

You had no problem with this one

UmbrageOfSnow (1): Awaclus

[faust]

yuma, there is no need to outperform Awaclus.

[Witherweaver]

Speaking of which, both Awaclus and Hydrad have been pretty absent since fervor for their lunch subsided.

[yuma]

yuma, there is no need to outperform Awaclus.

I am not trying to out perform him. I am trying to get you to have a townie read on me so that you, the quasi-ic can focus elsewhere and try to actually hit scum. And since his behavior is townie, thus shouldn't mine as well?

[yuma]

Speaking of which, both Awaclus and Hydrad have been pretty absent since fervor for their lunch subsided.

Pps too

[yuma]

Although he is on vacation so I don't really blame him

[Awaclus]

Speaking of which, both Awaclus and Hydrad have been pretty absent since fervor for their lunch subsided.

I've been pretty absent since the night ended in the other game.

[pingpongsam]

Will not lynch Faust, gkrieg, jimmmmm, or ashersky; the last 2 because I have town reads on and the first 2 because of their claims.

I am just outside of null and reading town on ww and hydrad.

Null on umbrage

Would lynch pool thus resolves to Yuma, awaclus, and TA in order of preference from least to most desirable.

Really Yuma is on the list because hardly anyone else reads him town and he seems confrontational in an emotional way that isn't giving me town vibes. In other words I don't see anything about him that makes me want to lynch him but I can see a lynch happening there and I think it would be informative and not wholly unlikely to hit scum.

Awacky is reading into scum territory for me. I don't think I've ever played with him though so it could just be my unfamiliarity with his style. I keep seeing that he is apparently staying true to form but that form is just as easily scum. I can see this lynch taking place but I don't know that it would be very informative. I do, however, think it may well hit scum.

Finally, TA... Reading loud and clear scum here from the beginning with no relief along the way. I've made every effort to not focus in that direction but every post by him just confirms my reads on him. If I am dead wrong I still think it is an informative flip.

Going to vote: TAfor now but willing to swap for one of the other two would lynches above.

[pingpongsam]

iPad formatting being a pain...

Vote: TA

[ashersky]

yuma reads town for me, for what that's worth.

I don't know if it's because I really want him to be town so I'm projecting or what, but that's where I'm at on him.

[Witherweaver]

What about Awaclus, Hydrad?

[faust]

yuma, there is no need to outperform Awaclus.

I am not trying to out perform him. I am trying to get you to have a townie read on me so that you, the quasi-ic can focus elsewhere and try to actually hit scum. And since his behavior is townie, thus shouldn't mine as well?

Well, if you truly believe that, you should go back to mafia 101. And otherwise I would greatly appreciate if you could just stop this.

[Witherweaver]

We only have a day by the way.

It would be good to lynch someone that's not me.

[Twistedarcher]

Finally, TA... Reading loud and clear scum here from the beginning with no relief along the way. I've made every effort to not focus in that direction but every post by him just confirms my reads on him. If I am dead wrong I still think it is an informative flip.

Please clarify this. I can see how this would be informative for other people, since they could glean information on your alignment from it. But for you, how is it informative? Nearly all of my interactions are with you. You've been really my one and only scum read before. How would lynching me be "informative" to you? You already know your role PM.

Really, if I'm town, the only "informative" information is that it paints you a hell of a lot worse. Which if you're town isn't something you want. If you're town, and you assume I'm not, not only is it a mislynch, it also would paint you scummy, which is bad! There's no way town!PPS wants this.

Really this is just another BS reason thrown into your OMGUS. You also never really answered why you're so sure I'm scum and not mistaken town.

The "informative" mislynch makes ZERO sense from a town!PPS perspective, though. A mislynch of me provides next to no information to town!PPS. This is scum!PPS talking folks.

[Twistedarcher]

PPS is just continuously OMGUS'ing me, and continuing to find the people who push him scummy. He's scum guys. I'm not voting for anyone else today.

[Twistedarcher]

Yuma is also 100000% town.

[Twistedarcher]

Null on Ash, Null-scummy on WW, who the hell knows with Awaclus, null-towny on Hydrad, Chairs is a town read, Faust/Gkrieg off the table. WW definitely gets high marks on the lots of posts, little content. I know he has content but it's just the impression I get from his posts. Jimmmmm/UoS are complete null to me as well.

[Jimmmmm]

Will not lynch Faust, gkrieg, jimmmmm, or ashersky; the last 2 because I have town reads on and the first 2 because of their claims.

What did I do to deserve that?

[pingpongsam]

And then TA commits to not being on a lynch wagon today. Classic scum maneuver but not very smart to be so clear about it.

Informative for town is good enough. As town I am not wholly invested in just myself and maybe a couple other scumbags. I think that's pretty clear from my self voting mechanism to bait your kind out. I would say roughly 1/3 of this day has revolved around the PPS self vote situation. Yuma has been the largest factor in that but his positions were pretty rational albeit inconsistent. Several other people placed their votes but only yours has remained. If you flip town then my initial and revisit wagons have more clarity. Since you were the most vocal proponent all we have to do is look at how other people worked with your instigation.  Specifically, Yuma is lore likely town if TA flips town. Also, I was thinking bushAwacler could be a scum partner since TA keeps coaching him so a town flips helps there, too. I mean, it's not a stretch to look at interactions and glean information from a flip. If anything, my flip would be less informative because I drew attention to myself whereas you did not.

[pingpongsam]

Will respond to jimmmmm after I got pick up my dog.

[Twistedarcher]

You make zero sense dude, I'm done trying.

Vote: PPS for life

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.12

Awaclus (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Witherweaver (4): chairs, ashersky, gkrieg13, yuma
pingpongsam (1): Twistedarcher
yuma (2): faust, Witherweaver
Twistedarcher (2): Hydrad, pingpongsam
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Awaclus

Not Voting (1): Jimmmmm

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends at Sep 21, 03 PM forum time. That is in 20h 38m.

[Jimmmmm]

I can't seem to find any reasons for the votes on ww. Have any been given?

[Jimmmmm]

I'm not loving pps, yuma or TA lynches. Maybe Awaclus or UOS?

[gkrieg13]

Sorry had a really busy weekend.  My thoughts right now.  TA seems scummy to me, but the way PPS is going at it also reads scummy to me.  I'm still happy where my vote is.  I will most likely not be around for the deadline but will be around later tonight.  Yuma reads town to me. 

PPE:2  Why UoS?

[yuma]

PPS is just continuously OMGUS'ing me, and continuing to find the people who push him scummy. He's scum guys. I'm not voting for anyone else today.

Vote: pps

[Witherweaver]

I'm not loving pps, yuma or TA lynches. Maybe Awaclus or UOS?

UoS does not seem scummy.. remarkably null, really.  I would still do Awaclus.

[Witherweaver]

I can't seem to find any reasons for the votes on ww. Have any been given?

No reasonable ones.

Chairs vote does not seem scummy; only main reason for scum doing it is to appear active.  I'm not sure if he expected people to actually follow him, though Ash did imply I was scummy before Chairs voted.

Ash's argument is that I'm not serious and lacking content.  The "jokey WW is scum WW" type of argument is the most often argument against town!me.   It tends to be not that often scum driven, as I recall.  Ash's is the only real argument that's been made against me.

Gkrieg is just messing with my plans.

Yuma's vote on me I don't like.  Though maybe it's scummy be deafult, because I think the other three on my wagon are town (well, Chairs is null), and it seems that there would be a scum on.

[yuma]

yuma, there is no need to outperform Awaclus.

I am not trying to out perform him. I am trying to get you to have a townie read on me so that you, the quasi-ic can focus elsewhere and try to actually hit scum. And since his behavior is townie, thus shouldn't mine as well?

Well, if you truly believe that, you should go back to mafia 101. And otherwise I would greatly appreciate if you could just stop this.

so to be clear, you would rather have me be helpful and play to actually try and find scum (or if I am scum to try really hard to replicate that and actually put myself out there and commit to positions and reads and votes) instead of just posting fluff the whole time?

And I wouldn't get a pass for doing the later while others do?

To be clear I have no issue with you finding me scummy. I have issues with you refusing to find obviously scummy behavior scummy when other people do it.

[gkrieg13]

Gkrieg is just messing with my plans.

??

[Witherweaver]

Gkrieg is just messing with my plans.

??

I wanted to claim to be your partner if he hadn't claimed by the end of the day, but you voting for me kind of ruined that. 

[yuma]

Really Yuma is on the list because hardly anyone else reads him town and he seems confrontational in an emotional way that isn't giving me town vibes. In other words I don't see anything about him that makes me want to lynch him but I can see a lynch happening there and I think it would be informative and not wholly unlikely to hit scum.

Interestingly enough I have more town reads on me this game than I ever have before on day1. ash, TA, gkeirg, jimmmm, UoS, awaclus

Faust, maybe there is something to this as I have obtained my goal of getting people to accurately see me as town...

But more to the point, WW and faust should stop voting for me even if they think I am scum because there aren't enough people who think I am null, let alone scum to lynch me.

[Jimmmmm]

Gkrieg is just messing with my plans.

??

I wanted to claim to be your partner if he hadn't claimed by the end of the day, but you voting for me kind of ruined that. 

So that's a claim?

[Witherweaver]

Really Yuma is on the list because hardly anyone else reads him town and he seems confrontational in an emotional way that isn't giving me town vibes. In other words I don't see anything about him that makes me want to lynch him but I can see a lynch happening there and I think it would be informative and not wholly unlikely to hit scum.

Interestingly enough I have more town reads on me this game than I ever have before on day1. ash, TA, gkeirg, jimmmm, UoS, awaclus

Faust, maybe there is something to this as I have obtained my goal of getting people to accurately see me as town...

But more to the point, WW and faust should stop voting for me even if they think I am scum because there aren't enough people who think I am null, let alone scum to lynch me.

I don't think that's true, I think anyone but the psuedo ICs are a viable lynch.  Reads change, even in just a day.

[Witherweaver]

Gkrieg is just messing with my plans.

??

I wanted to claim to be your partner if he hadn't claimed by the end of the day, but you voting for me kind of ruined that. 

So that's a claim?

Well it's a claim that I'm not a Mason, yes.

[yuma]

I don't think that's true, I think anyone but the psuedo ICs are a viable lynch.  Reads change, even in just a day.

I agree. But until people start to change their reads, which honestly I don't think is going to happen (people think pretty strongly I am town) I think you should move your vote elsewhere given the current time constraint that we have... if they change, you are free to move back of course...

[Jimmmmm]

Gkrieg is just messing with my plans.

??

I wanted to claim to be your partner if he hadn't claimed by the end of the day, but you voting for me kind of ruined that. 

So that's a claim?

Well it's a claim that I'm not a Mason, yes.

Oh I see. Why would you want to fake claim?

[Witherweaver]

Gkrieg is just messing with my plans.

??

I wanted to claim to be your partner if he hadn't claimed by the end of the day, but you voting for me kind of ruined that. 

So that's a claim?

Well it's a claim that I'm not a Mason, yes.

Oh I see. Why would you want to fake claim?

Mainly because I wanted to see what would happen.  I thought there might be an advantage, because the Masons could deduce that I'm town (because what would the scum motivation for that be?), so it could help with PoE.  Also I had a guess who the other Mason is.

I was trying to plant a "breacrumb" back when we were talking about how the other Mason should wait to claim and about how I believed Gkrieg. 

[pingpongsam]

To answer Jimmmmm, he is well within his D1 meta which is largely absent but actively catching up. He voted for Faust and removed the vote once his claim was reiterated, I don't think scum would do that. Besides, Faust would otherwise appear to be scum since he can afford confident play with his status. He seems to be doing his usual scum hunting. At no point has anything he has said struck me as scummy. I think we have a town Jimmmmm that I have seen before and is a strong asset. I will not lynch jimmmmm today.

[pingpongsam]

Town rule number 1 is not to lie. Plotting a fake claim to gather town credibility seems beyond reproach. This has to be the single most scummy thing WW has admitted to doing this game. Thing is, would scum admit it? I think not. Still, wtf?

[pingpongsam]

Also, vote: awaclus because the TA vote is wasted and he was second on my would lynch list for the reasons already given and his lynch seems like a real possibility before day end.

[Jimmmmm]

Gkrieg is just messing with my plans.

??

I wanted to claim to be your partner if he hadn't claimed by the end of the day, but you voting for me kind of ruined that. 

So that's a claim?

Well it's a claim that I'm not a Mason, yes.

Oh I see. Why would you want to fake claim?

Mainly because I wanted to see what would happen.  I thought there might be an advantage, because the Masons could deduce that I'm town (because what would the scum motivation for that be?), so it could help with PoE.  Also I had a guess who the other Mason is.

This is very dubious. If I was a Mason and a non-Mason claimed Mason, I would not believe they were Town.

[Jimmmmm]

Town rule number 1 is not to lie. Plotting a fake claim to gather town credibility seems beyond reproach. This has to be the single most scummy thing WW has admitted to doing this game. Thing is, would scum admit it? I think not. Still, wtf?

Yeah it's super weird.

[Witherweaver]

Well like I said, I was curious what would happen.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.13

Awaclus (2): UmbrageOfSnow, pingpongsam
Witherweaver (3): chairs, ashersky, gkrieg13
pingpongsam (2): Twistedarcher, yuma
yuma (2): faust, Witherweaver
Twistedarcher (1): Hydrad
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Awaclus

Not Voting (1): Jimmmmm

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends at Sep 21, 03 PM forum time. That is in 19h 16m.

[Jimmmmm]

Well like I said, I was curious what would happen.

You'd be lynched?

[Witherweaver]

Maybe.

[yuma]

Vote: awaclus

Come back ww!

[Hydrad]

I'm here again!

huh this is interesting it seems like everyones still in the air for whos viable to be lynched. usually we have one person maybe 2 and those are the only options when we get to 1 day left.

lets see who I want to move to...

[Witherweaver]

Vote: awaclus

Come back ww!

Eh okay

Vote: Awaclus

[Hydrad]

Vote: awaclus

there we go now someones closer to being lynched!

PPE: L-2! now i think

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So are we all coming back to Awaclus because you guys agree with me, or because we need to lynch someone?

[yuma]

So are we all coming back to Awaclus because you guys agree with me, or because we need to lynch someone?

both

[Jimmmmm]

So are we all coming back to Awaclus because you guys agree with me, or because we need to lynch someone?

Can you please direct me to your main point/s on Awaclus?

[yuma]

so i am doing what i said and reading dwarf mafia and while i am only in the midst of day1 i am already seeing something... not what awaclus perhaps wants me to see (his town narrative thing working...) but i am seeing a different awaclus.

he is still frustrating people, but there he was being far more vocal, giving defenses, pointing out people not living up to the town narrative and voting! (even when he says "nothing is going on" in that game he found some things to talk about.

here he says there isn't anything to see non-town narratives, which obviously isn't true...

i think awaclus can't find anyone breaking town narratives because he 1. knows everyone is town and therefore can't actually be breaking town narratives except for 2. his scum buddies, who he isn't calling out because it is too early in the game for that.

people have said that this awaclus looks like any other awaclus but i think they may be just looking surface deep. anyone who still feels that way now i would ask to go deeper (beyond the frustration level) and see if you still feel that way.

vote: awaclus

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Site is crazy slow for me right now Jim, but it's only a couple pages back that I summarized the posts that bugged me.

It's just meta, but I think that's the way to read Awaclus.

[yuma]

^is a summary of how i felt he compared to a game that he specifically referenced to me as town play for him, after i noticed that he was being non-committal, lacking in substance and consistently didn't give any scum reads proclaiming there was nothing going on during this dat to analyze when there obviously is...

[chairs]

Wow, I was going to swap to PPS, and then the last couple pages happened and now I'm again fine with WW.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

chairs, what was it that changed your opinion on WW?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Site is crazy slow for me right now Jim, but it's only a couple pages back that I summarized the posts that bugged me.

It's just meta, but I think that's the way to read Awaclus.

@Jimmmmmmm
It's this post.

Basically, I agree with what Yuma sees, but more than that for me is how Awaclus has responded to pressure.

[gkrieg13]

I feel very good about my ww vote right now. Not really feeling the awaclus lynch so I'll keep my vote where it is.

[gkrieg13]

I feel very good about my ww vote right now. Not really feeling the awaclus lynch so I'll keep my vote where it is.

Especially with ww and hydrad on the wagon

[ashersky]

I feel very good about my ww vote right now. Not really feeling the awaclus lynch so I'll keep my vote where it is.

[faust]

yuma, there is no need to outperform Awaclus.

I am not trying to out perform him. I am trying to get you to have a townie read on me so that you, the quasi-ic can focus elsewhere and try to actually hit scum. And since his behavior is townie, thus shouldn't mine as well?

Well, if you truly believe that, you should go back to mafia 101. And otherwise I would greatly appreciate if you could just stop this.

so to be clear, you would rather have me be helpful and play to actually try and find scum (or if I am scum to try really hard to replicate that and actually put myself out there and commit to positions and reads and votes) instead of just posting fluff the whole time?

And I wouldn't get a pass for doing the later while others do?

To be clear I have no issue with you finding me scummy. I have issues with you refusing to find obviously scummy behavior scummy when other people do it.

1) Yes.
2) Yes.

Move along, please.

[faust]

Vote: awaclus

there we go now someones closer to being lynched!

PPE: L-2! now i think

Aren't you the guy who likes alternate wagons?

[faust]

Okay. The Awaclus wagon is bad. The WW wagon is plain awful. yuma is not happening, which is a shame. Out of the rest, I think I like vote: TA best.

[faust]

gkrieg, how long until the deadline will you be around? We might need you to confirm Mason claims.

[yuma]

well poop.

i for one am not voting ta...

v=vote: pps?

[yuma]

vote: pps

[Awaclus]

Vote: Witherweaver

He's certainly a better lynch than me.

[Hydrad]

Vote: awaclus

there we go now someones closer to being lynched!

PPE: L-2! now i think

Aren't you the guy who likes alternate wagons?

I love alternate wagons! but we need a wagon that looks like its going to happen first most of the time for an alternate wagon to be possible. Otherwise its just a plain old boring wagon.

[faust]

I prefer a PPS lynch to both Awaclus and WW. But I still prefer TA.

[faust]

Vote: Witherweaver

He's certainly a better lynch than me.

No, he's really not.

[yuma]

I prefer a PPS lynch to both Awaclus and WW. But I still prefer TA.

vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!

[faust]

I prefer a PPS lynch to both Awaclus and WW. But I still prefer TA.

vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!
vote pps!

I think you just broke a game rule

[yuma]

oops. well if I get modkilled at least you will know I am town and stop suspecting me...

just zoom in about 300% on your browser and you can totally see what I wrote.

[Hydrad]

hmm so like 8 hours left? if my math is right?

awa is fine for me. TA might be ahead of awa by a bit. then PPS. and ww is last for me for wanting to lynch as I don't think its fair to lynch him on him thinking i'm scummy while I find him towny in most other aspects.

actually thinking of it more its striking me odd that I attempted to get the TA wagon going before and no one really jumped on even though it felt like many people were ok with a TA lynch...

That kinda makes me want to go back to TA.

[faust]

hmm so like 8 hours left? if my math is right?

awa is fine for me. TA might be ahead of awa by a bit. then PPS. and ww is last for me for wanting to lynch as I don't think its fair to lynch him on him thinking i'm scummy while I find him towny in most other aspects.

actually thinking of it more its striking me odd that I attempted to get the TA wagon going before and no one really jumped on even though it felt like many people were ok with a TA lynch...

That kinda makes me want to go back to TA.

Well, go ahead. Three's a crowd.

[Hydrad]

Vote: TA

gogo alternate wagons!

[pingpongsam]

Vote: TA definitely prefer this lynch over any other, swapped last night because I didn't think it could happen. Recent posts indicate otherwise.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: TA

gogo alternate wagons!

Actually hydrad didn't move his vote, right? TA currently only has 3 votes iinm. I will be on until deadline so I can switch if needed.

[Witherweaver]

Wow, I was going to swap to PPS, and then the last couple pages happened and now I'm again fine with WW.

It's like you want to lynch the people least likely to be scum.

[Witherweaver]

I'll do TA if needed.  Awaclus and Yuma are my preferences.

[pingpongsam]

Awaclus came together super easy Sunday. I got a sick feeling about it.

[Witherweaver]

Awaclus came together super easy Sunday. I got a sick feeling about it.

Yeah, Sunday was good times. 

[Jimmmmm]

Not long to deadline. Vote: Awaclus is my preference, mostly because I don't really like any of the other options at this stage.

[ashersky]

Awaclus (3): UmbrageOfSnow, ww, jimmmmm
Witherweaver (4): chairs, ashersky, gkrieg13, Awa
pingpongsam (2): Twistedarcher, yuma
Twistedarcher (3): faust, hydrad, pps

Here's the latest.

[ashersky]

Each wagon has a scummy player on it, which is annoying.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.14

Awaclus (3): UmbrageOfSnow, Witherweaver, Jimmmmm
Witherweaver (4): chairs, ashersky, gkrieg13, Awaclus
pingpongsam (2): Twistedarcher, yuma
Twistedarcher (3): faust, Hydrad, pingpongsam

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends at Sep 21, 03 PM forum time. That is in 6h 20m.

[ashersky]

I'm around all day.  WW wagon is the best anyway.

For all your Awaclus haters, he's in a scummy position on the wagon, so that's more fuel for your fire tomorrow.

[faust]

I don't see the WW case at all. ashersky, can you enlighten me?

[Jimmmmm]

For all your Awaclus haters, he's in a scummy position on the wagon, so that's more fuel for your fire tomorrow.

This is all kinds of scummy. Is it deliberately so?

[Hydrad]

Going to sleep. Will try to wake up before deadline but don't count on it 100%

[pingpongsam]

fausst, hydrad, and myself have all indicated willingness to lynch awaclus so that looks like the most likely wagon but not the most preferred by those particular swing voters.

[gkrieg13]

Id also do TA but I'm not really feeling pps or awa I'll try to check in before the deadline, but it will be during class so I probably won't have much to say.

[pingpongsam]

gkrieg and awaclus could come over to TA (awaclus simply to save his own hide).

Who else would seal the deal? Jimmmmm and chairs? the TA wagon doesn't seem to have sufficient traction which only serves to confirm it's validity for me.

[Witherweaver]

I'm around all day.  WW wagon is the best anyway.

For all your Awaclus haters, he's in a scummy position on the wagon, so that's more fuel for your fire tomorrow.

Sounds like you know I'm Town.

[Witherweaver]

I think the second Mason should claim.

Though I'm not so certain there's a pitfall if they don't.  For some reason earlier in the day I thought there would be.  If Gkrieg is shot and flips Mason, we can believe the other one when he claims.  If other guy gets shot, Gkrieg is confirmed.

[Witherweaver]

I don't see the WW case at all. ashersky, can you enlighten me?

It mostly seems to be that I'm town.

[faust]

fausst, hydrad, and myself have all indicated willingness to lynch awaclus so that looks like the most likely wagon but not the most preferred by those particular swing voters.

I am not willing to lynch Awaclus.

[faust]

Id also do TA but I'm not really feeling pps or awa I'll try to check in before the deadline, but it will be during class so I probably won't have much to say.

Please check in to confirm Mason claims.

[faust]

I think the second Mason should claim.

Though I'm not so certain there's a pitfall if they don't.  For some reason earlier in the day I thought there would be.  If Gkrieg is shot and flips Mason, we can believe the other one when he claims.  If other guy gets shot, Gkrieg is confirmed.

If gkrieg is shot, I will become a Mason.

The other Mason should potentially claim if he's one of {Awaclus, TA, WW, PPS}

[faust]

I don't see the WW case at all. ashersky, can you enlighten me?

It mostly seems to be that I'm town.

Yes, that's how it seems to me.

[ashersky]

I don't see the WW case at all. ashersky, can you enlighten me?

WW covered most of it.

I pointed out jokey and substance-less WW is scummy, and he pointed out that he was well-aware that this is the biggest reason that he's been mislynched in the past, so he sees it as a town tell, which of course he could use to his advantage as scum.

I didn't like his previous tunneling, which was also scummy behavior.  But mostly the first thing.  It's not the strongest case I've made, but it's the best one I see today.  To me, it's better than Awaclus is being scummy Awaclus again or whatever the reasoning is on TA.

I guess I could do PPS to avoid a no lynch.

[ashersky]

I think the second Mason should claim.

Though I'm not so certain there's a pitfall if they don't.  For some reason earlier in the day I thought there would be.  If Gkrieg is shot and flips Mason, we can believe the other one when he claims.  If other guy gets shot, Gkrieg is confirmed.

If gkrieg is shot, I will become a Mason.

The other Mason should potentially claim if he's one of {Awaclus, TA, WW, PPS}

I disagree with WW, agree with faust.

[faust]

I don't see the WW case at all. ashersky, can you enlighten me?

WW covered most of it.

I pointed out jokey and substance-less WW is scummy, and he pointed out that he was well-aware that this is the biggest reason that he's been mislynched in the past, so he sees it as a town tell, which of course he could use to his advantage as scum.

I didn't like his previous tunneling, which was also scummy behavior.  But mostly the first thing.  It's not the strongest case I've made, but it's the best one I see today.  To me, it's better than Awaclus is being scummy Awaclus again or whatever the reasoning is on TA.

I guess I could do PPS to avoid a no lynch.

Do you see any merit is my townslip argument?

[Witherweaver]

I don't see the WW case at all. ashersky, can you enlighten me?

WW covered most of it.

I pointed out jokey and substance-less WW is scummy, and he pointed out that he was well-aware that this is the biggest reason that he's been mislynched in the past, so he sees it as a town tell, which of course he could use to his advantage as scum.

I didn't like his previous tunneling, which was also scummy behavior.  But mostly the first thing.  It's not the strongest case I've made, but it's the best one I see today.  To me, it's better than Awaclus is being scummy Awaclus again or whatever the reasoning is on TA.

I guess I could do PPS to avoid a no lynch.

Do you see any merit is my townslip argument?

Slips only count for Ash when they're scumslips. 

[Witherweaver]

I don't see the WW case at all. ashersky, can you enlighten me?

WW covered most of it.

I pointed out jokey and substance-less WW is scummy, and he pointed out that he was well-aware that this is the biggest reason that he's been mislynched in the past, so he sees it as a town tell, which of course he could use to his advantage as scum.

I didn't like his previous tunneling, which was also scummy behavior.  But mostly the first thing.  It's not the strongest case I've made, but it's the best one I see today.  To me, it's better than Awaclus is being scummy Awaclus again or whatever the reasoning is on TA.

I guess I could do PPS to avoid a no lynch.

It's a pretty bad argument.

"Hey, you're innocuously acting within your town meta."

"Well, it's my meta as town."

"Yeah, which you would use to manipulate us as scum. Therefore you're scum."

Wouldn't I have to be aware of you highlighting this in the first place for me to plan this kind of utilization?

[Witherweaver]

It's a bit begging the question.

[Witherweaver]

I think the second Mason should claim.

Though I'm not so certain there's a pitfall if they don't.  For some reason earlier in the day I thought there would be.  If Gkrieg is shot and flips Mason, we can believe the other one when he claims.  If other guy gets shot, Gkrieg is confirmed.

If gkrieg is shot, I will become a Mason.

The other Mason should potentially claim if he's one of {Awaclus, TA, WW, PPS}

Yeah I forgot about that. 

[faust]

WW, you are voting Awaclus I see. What are your reads on TA and PPS? And on yuma, for that matter?

[Witherweaver]

WW, you are voting Awaclus I see. What are your reads on TA and PPS? And on yuma, for that matter?

PPS town, TA null, maybe scum, Yuma scummier. 

[pingpongsam]

If gkrieg, withers, and awacy come over to the TA wagon it will only need one more vote to finalize.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Each wagon has a scummy player on it, which is annoying.

It's almost like this sort of pre-flip association isn't actually very useful.  Especially when you have more scumreads than there are scum.

[pingpongsam]

Has awaclus ever leaned towards voting TA? It seems at this point he could go anywhere but his own wagon just to save his hide but maybe he doesn't want to bus... Or maybe he is bussing? I'm having a hard time seeing withers as scum.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I think the second Mason should claim.

Though I'm not so certain there's a pitfall if they don't.  For some reason earlier in the day I thought there would be.  If Gkrieg is shot and flips Mason, we can believe the other one when he claims.  If other guy gets shot, Gkrieg is confirmed.

Absolutely no reason for the 2nd Mason to claim unless they're going to be lynched.

If Gkrieg is Mason and gets NKed, any uncounterclaimed single Mason is IC.  Outing ICs is bad, mmkay?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I should be around until about an hour before deadline.

Awaclus > Sam > TA > WW

I would really like to know what the case on TA is.

[pingpongsam]

For some reason I thought deadline was 11am...

[Witherweaver]

I think the second Mason should claim.

Though I'm not so certain there's a pitfall if they don't.  For some reason earlier in the day I thought there would be.  If Gkrieg is shot and flips Mason, we can believe the other one when he claims.  If other guy gets shot, Gkrieg is confirmed.

Absolutely no reason for the 2nd Mason to claim unless they're going to be lynched.

If Gkrieg is Mason and gets NKed, any uncounterclaimed single Mason is IC.  Outing ICs is bad, mmkay?

Sorry, isn't an IC an IC because they're outed?  Or do you mean that it's better to have it come out later?

[Witherweaver]

I should be around until about an hour before deadline.

Awaclus > Sam > TA > WW

I would really like to know what the case on TA is.

He's lynchable.

I felt a little weird on his interactions with PPS, and PPS seems townier to me.  From memory, TA's presence seems to be primarily (exclusively) arguing with PPS. 

[Witherweaver]

Though on the other hand, scum!TA might make a point to be more involved.

[ashersky]

I don't see the WW case at all. ashersky, can you enlighten me?

WW covered most of it.

I pointed out jokey and substance-less WW is scummy, and he pointed out that he was well-aware that this is the biggest reason that he's been mislynched in the past, so he sees it as a town tell, which of course he could use to his advantage as scum.

I didn't like his previous tunneling, which was also scummy behavior.  But mostly the first thing.  It's not the strongest case I've made, but it's the best one I see today.  To me, it's better than Awaclus is being scummy Awaclus again or whatever the reasoning is on TA.

I guess I could do PPS to avoid a no lynch.

Do you see any merit is my townslip argument?

The Godfather thing?  No.  Easily fabricated, plus I didn't notice it when it happened.  Plus, he admitted to planning to fakeclaim today, which is basically saying he was going to force out the real mason, which is basically saying he is scum.

[ashersky]

I don't see the WW case at all. ashersky, can you enlighten me?

WW covered most of it.

I pointed out jokey and substance-less WW is scummy, and he pointed out that he was well-aware that this is the biggest reason that he's been mislynched in the past, so he sees it as a town tell, which of course he could use to his advantage as scum.

I didn't like his previous tunneling, which was also scummy behavior.  But mostly the first thing.  It's not the strongest case I've made, but it's the best one I see today.  To me, it's better than Awaclus is being scummy Awaclus again or whatever the reasoning is on TA.

I guess I could do PPS to avoid a no lynch.

It's a pretty bad argument.

"Hey, you're innocuously acting within your town meta."

"Well, it's my meta as town."

"Yeah, which you would use to manipulate us as scum. Therefore you're scum."

Wouldn't I have to be aware of you highlighting this in the first place for me to plan this kind of utilization?

When did I ever say you were acting within your town meta?  I said you were acting scummy and YOU said it was within your town meta.

I'm saying you are acting scummy and should be lynched.  That's it.

[Awaclus]

It's a pretty bad argument.

"Hey, you're innocuously acting within your town meta."

"Well, it's my meta as town."

"Yeah, which you would use to manipulate us as scum. Therefore you're scum."

Wouldn't I have to be aware of you highlighting this in the first place for me to plan this kind of utilization?

A good thing you're not using the exact same argument against me then.


Oh wait, you are though.

[Witherweaver]

I don't see the WW case at all. ashersky, can you enlighten me?

WW covered most of it.

I pointed out jokey and substance-less WW is scummy, and he pointed out that he was well-aware that this is the biggest reason that he's been mislynched in the past, so he sees it as a town tell, which of course he could use to his advantage as scum.

I didn't like his previous tunneling, which was also scummy behavior.  But mostly the first thing.  It's not the strongest case I've made, but it's the best one I see today.  To me, it's better than Awaclus is being scummy Awaclus again or whatever the reasoning is on TA.

I guess I could do PPS to avoid a no lynch.

Do you see any merit is my townslip argument?

The Godfather thing?  No.  Easily fabricated, plus I didn't notice it when it happened.  Plus, he admitted to planning to fakeclaim today, which is basically saying he was going to force out the real mason, which is basically saying he is scum.

Why would I force out the real mason?

[Awaclus]

Has awaclus ever leaned towards voting TA? It seems at this point he could go anywhere but his own wagon just to save his hide but maybe he doesn't want to bus... Or maybe he is bussing? I'm having a hard time seeing withers as scum.

Well, I'm not scum so I'm not really bussing or not bussing. I would vote for TA over being lynched myself, but I think he is town.

[Awaclus]

Why would I force out the real mason?

Indeed, why would you do that?

[Witherweaver]

It's a pretty bad argument.

"Hey, you're innocuously acting within your town meta."

"Well, it's my meta as town."

"Yeah, which you would use to manipulate us as scum. Therefore you're scum."

Wouldn't I have to be aware of you highlighting this in the first place for me to plan this kind of utilization?

A good thing you're not using the exact same argument against me then.


Oh wait, you are though.

I'm not, and statements like this is why I'm always okay with lynching you.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I think the second Mason should claim.

Though I'm not so certain there's a pitfall if they don't.  For some reason earlier in the day I thought there would be.  If Gkrieg is shot and flips Mason, we can believe the other one when he claims.  If other guy gets shot, Gkrieg is confirmed.

Absolutely no reason for the 2nd Mason to claim unless they're going to be lynched.

If Gkrieg is Mason and gets NKed, any uncounterclaimed single Mason is IC.  Outing ICs is bad, mmkay?

Sorry, isn't an IC an IC because they're outed?  Or do you mean that it's better to have it come out later?

Yes, it's better for them to come out later.  Even if UB Faust dies AND Mason Gkrieg dies, an uncounterclaimed mason still becomes IC once they claim.  We don't have single masons in the game.  And it is absolutely better for them to wait to claim, because if we have protective roles they already have some guessing to do and outing more juicy targets now will make it harder to guess correctly.

Mason should only claim if they are going to be lynched otherwise.  But not like an hour before deadline when people can't change their votes.

[Awaclus]

I'm not, and I am.

Well, good for you then.

[Witherweaver]

I don't see the WW case at all. ashersky, can you enlighten me?

WW covered most of it.

I pointed out jokey and substance-less WW is scummy, and he pointed out that he was well-aware that this is the biggest reason that he's been mislynched in the past, so he sees it as a town tell, which of course he could use to his advantage as scum.

I didn't like his previous tunneling, which was also scummy behavior.  But mostly the first thing.  It's not the strongest case I've made, but it's the best one I see today.  To me, it's better than Awaclus is being scummy Awaclus again or whatever the reasoning is on TA.

I guess I could do PPS to avoid a no lynch.

It's a pretty bad argument.

"Hey, you're innocuously acting within your town meta."

"Well, it's my meta as town."

"Yeah, which you would use to manipulate us as scum. Therefore you're scum."

Wouldn't I have to be aware of you highlighting this in the first place for me to plan this kind of utilization?

When did I ever say you were acting within your town meta?  I said you were acting scummy and YOU said it was within your town meta.

I'm saying you are acting scummy and should be lynched.  That's it.

Missing the point.

[Witherweaver]

I'm not, and I am.

Well, good for you then.

Don't misedit posts based upon your inability to read.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Ash is also missing the point that no one wants to lynch Awaclus for being "normal, scummy Awaclus."

I've defended Awaclus before, I don't always want to lynch him.

[pingpongsam]

TA's presence seems to be primarily (exclusively) arguing with PPS.

Exactly. When I am scum I want to be off-wagon for D1 or really any Day I can afford to do so. If I must be on-wagon then I want to either be bussing or I want the mislynch to be one that no one can really be blamed for being on such as a policy lynch or a counterclaim lynch. So, TA chased the easy, can't be blamed for policy lynch on me (while denying it was actually a policy lynch but that he thought I must somehow surely be scum, which is what I would so do if I were scum playing this angle). If that mislynch works, great, he can't be blamed. If someone else gets lynched, well, he's firmly committed to being of-wagon which keeps him clean for the next day. I call him scum for playing exactly as I would were I scum.

[yuma]

Awaclus came together super easy Sunday. I got a sick feeling about it.

if by came together you mean completely stalled at L-2 then I guess it was kinda easy.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.15

Awaclus (3): UmbrageOfSnow, Witherweaver, Jimmmmm
Witherweaver (4): chairs, ashersky, gkrieg13, Awaclus
pingpongsam (2): Twistedarcher, yuma
Twistedarcher (3): faust, Hydrad, pingpongsam

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends at Sep 21, 03 PM forum time. That is in 3h 39m.

[yuma]

vote: awaclus

infinitely better than TA. Probably better than WW.

[ashersky]

Ash is also missing the point that no one wants to lynch Awaclus for being "normal, scummy Awaclus."

I've defended Awaclus before, I don't always want to lynch him.

Can someone sum up the case on Awaclus if it isn't his scummy-just-like-always behavior?

[yuma]

i feel like i have summed it up a couple of times...

#933 and #935 for my take. uos' right below

[Witherweaver]

TA's presence seems to be primarily (exclusively) arguing with PPS.

Exactly. When I am scum I want to be off-wagon for D1 or really any Day I can afford to do so. If I must be on-wagon then I want to either be bussing or I want the mislynch to be one that no one can really be blamed for being on such as a policy lynch or a counterclaim lynch. So, TA chased the easy, can't be blamed for policy lynch on me (while denying it was actually a policy lynch but that he thought I must somehow surely be scum, which is what I would so do if I were scum playing this angle). If that mislynch works, great, he can't be blamed. If someone else gets lynched, well, he's firmly committed to being of-wagon which keeps him clean for the next day. I call him scum for playing exactly as I would were I scum.

Yeah, but I'm not really convinced that's how TA plays as scum, based on his last two scum games. 

[yuma]

TA's presence seems to be primarily (exclusively) arguing with PPS.

Exactly. When I am scum I want to be off-wagon for D1 or really any Day I can afford to do so. If I must be on-wagon then I want to either be bussing or I want the mislynch to be one that no one can really be blamed for being on such as a policy lynch or a counterclaim lynch. So, TA chased the easy, can't be blamed for policy lynch on me (while denying it was actually a policy lynch but that he thought I must somehow surely be scum, which is what I would so do if I were scum playing this angle). If that mislynch works, great, he can't be blamed. If someone else gets lynched, well, he's firmly committed to being of-wagon which keeps him clean for the next day. I call him scum for playing exactly as I would were I scum.

Yeah, but I'm not really convinced that's how TA plays as scum, based on his last two scum games.

yeah as one who just read dwarf mafia (looking for awaclus stuff, but ta was pretty easy to pay attention to ), there he was nothing like he is here.

and pps is basing a scum read explanation above based off how HE says HE plays as scum. personally when i am scum i try to drive mislynches and then survive through any fallout.  i kinda feel like ta is the same way, so i don't think you can accurately make a case by comparing ta to pps, compare ta to ta.

[faust]

Okay. Two bad wagons. Noone willing to leave for TA. How about

Vote: PPS?

[pingpongsam]

and pps is basing a scum read explanation above based off how HE says HE plays as scum. personally when i am scum i try to drive mislynches and then survive through any fallout.  i kinda feel like ta is the same way, so i don't think you can accurately make a case by comparing ta to pps, compare ta to ta.

Right, because no one ever does things differently from how they did them in previous games. I call it like I see it. Lynching me for seeing it is ridiculous.

[Twistedarcher]

Would prefer WW over Awaclus if I had to choose

[Twistedarcher]

and pps is basing a scum read explanation above based off how HE says HE plays as scum. personally when i am scum i try to drive mislynches and then survive through any fallout.  i kinda feel like ta is the same way, so i don't think you can accurately make a case by comparing ta to pps, compare ta to ta.

Right, because no one ever does things differently from how they did them in previous games. I call it like I see it. Lynching me for seeing it is ridiculous.

But isn't that exactly what you're doing to me? Trying to lynch me because I find you scummy?

[pingpongsam]

and pps is basing a scum read explanation above based off how HE says HE plays as scum. personally when i am scum i try to drive mislynches and then survive through any fallout.  i kinda feel like ta is the same way, so i don't think you can accurately make a case by comparing ta to pps, compare ta to ta.

Right, because no one ever does things differently from how they did them in previous games. I call it like I see it. Lynching me for seeing it is ridiculous.

But isn't that exactly what you're doing to me? Trying to lynch me because I find you scummy?

No, it's your refusal to do anything else at all. I find that you refuse to look elsewhere the scummiest aspect of your play. that you are tunneling a known towny just confirms it.

[Twistedarcher]

"known towny" LOL!

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So TA, why were you in favor of massclaiming early on?

[Twistedarcher]

So TA, why were you in favor of massclaiming early on?

Because they make games interesting. I wasn't convinced it was 100% the best thing, but would have been happy enough to see one. I wasn't aware I came out that hard in favor of it.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So TA, why were you in favor of massclaiming early on?

Because they make games interesting. I wasn't convinced it was 100% the best thing, but would have been happy enough to see one. I wasn't aware I came out that hard in favor of it.

That's how it reads to me.  Also, what was your reasoning for this:

100% the other mason needs to claim D1. Maybe not immediately, but it needs to be today.

[Twistedarcher]

I still think that. I think the downside of Gkrieg being killed and not identifying the other IC is greater than the upside of saving the claim for later.

[Witherweaver]

I still think that. I think the downside of Gkrieg being killed and not identifying the other IC is greater than the upside of saving the claim for later.

What's the downside?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

THIS FORUM IS SO SLOW TODAY

Jimmmmmmm, Yuma, Faust, how do you guys think Sam's play compares to his play in Diffusion of Power at this point?

[ashersky]

I think the four wagons go WW > PPS > Awa > TA at this point.

I'd do a lurker, I guess...

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.16

Awaclus (4): UmbrageOfSnow, Witherweaver, Jimmmmm, yuma
Witherweaver (4): chairs, ashersky, gkrieg13, Awaclus
pingpongsam (2): Twistedarcher, faust
Twistedarcher (2): Hydrad, pingpongsam

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends at Sep 21, 03 PM forum time. That is in 1h 52m.

[Twistedarcher]

I still think that. I think the downside of Gkrieg being killed and not identifying the other IC is greater than the upside of saving the claim for later.

What's the downside?

The other mason goes from a verifiable IC to a non-verifiable IC? Whether or not you disagree with whether that's worth it, it's a pretty obvious and non-negligible downside

[Witherweaver]

I still think that. I think the downside of Gkrieg being killed and not identifying the other IC is greater than the upside of saving the claim for later.

What's the downside?

The other mason goes from a verifiable IC to a non-verifiable IC? Whether or not you disagree with whether that's worth it, it's a pretty obvious and non-negligible downside

But isn't it essentially verified once Gkrieg has flipped?  If he flips Mason, we know there has to be a second one.  If no one else has flipped, a scum claim can be counterclaimed by the real mason.

Also, Faust would inherit if he's telling the truth.

[yuma]

THIS FORUM IS SO SLOW TODAY

Jimmmmmmm, Yuma, Faust, how do you guys think Sam's play compares to his play in Diffusion of Power at this point?

The forum is really slow...

I think ta is correct off memory, I haven't checked. But what I did check was when he was town in adventure time. There he was not nearly as "me" centric. I had more about this on an earlier post, I'll reference it in a bit if I can

[yuma]

Okay. Two bad wagons. Noone willing to leave for TA. How about

Vote: PPS?

Vote: pps!

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm willing to Vote: PPS

Better than WW, and Yuma, Ash, Faust is very probably not the scumteam, so at least one good player who knows PPS is on him, and very probably 2-3.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Or I guess Ash isn't on him, but he's his second choice.

Anyway, Ash, what lurker would you rather lynch than the current candidates?

[Witherweaver]

Well, I would do PPS.  I've kind of talked myself out of TA.  I still like Awaclus.

[pingpongsam]

Looks like the TA thing won't happen today so, Vote: Awaclus

[yuma]

and pps is basing a scum read explanation above based off how HE says HE plays as scum. personally when i am scum i try to drive mislynches and then survive through any fallout.  i kinda feel like ta is the same way, so i don't think you can accurately make a case by comparing ta to pps, compare ta to ta.

Right, because no one ever does things differently from how they did them in previous games. I call it like I see it. Lynching me for seeing it is ridiculous.

you miss understand me. You are voting TA because he is playing like PPS plays as scum. That just isn't an accurate way to lynch. Cause I don't play the way you are saying you play, and I don't think TA does either... But you say you do. And it kinda looks like you are doing just that

[Awaclus]

Vote: PPS

[Awaclus]

I think that's L-2.

[Twistedarcher]

Ash has moved towards being scummier at the end of today.

[Awaclus]

I still like Awaclus.

I like you too <3

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.17

Awaclus (3): Witherweaver, Jimmmmm, pingpongsam
Witherweaver (3): chairs, ashersky, gkrieg13
pingpongsam (5): Twistedarcher, faust, yuma, UmbrageOfSnow, Awaclus {L-2}
Twistedarcher (1): Hydrad

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends at Sep 21, 03 PM forum time. That is in 1h 26m.

[faust]

THIS FORUM IS SO SLOW TODAY

Jimmmmmmm, Yuma, Faust, how do you guys think Sam's play compares to his play in Diffusion of Power at this point?

There are similarities. I'd argue his play in DoP was more over the top, D1 at least.

[faust]

Okay, PPS is the leading wagon, that's better than WW or Awaclus. Hydrad, you should change your vote. And I don't really think WW will be happening today.

[chairs]

This is probably my last chance to post before deadline.  vote: pps THIS IS L-1

[faust]

and pps is basing a scum read explanation above based off how HE says HE plays as scum. personally when i am scum i try to drive mislynches and then survive through any fallout.  i kinda feel like ta is the same way, so i don't think you can accurately make a case by comparing ta to pps, compare ta to ta.

Right, because no one ever does things differently from how they did them in previous games. I call it like I see it. Lynching me for seeing it is ridiculous.

you miss understand me. You are voting TA because he is playing like PPS plays as scum. That just isn't an accurate way to lynch. Cause I don't play the way you are saying you play, and I don't think TA does either... But you say you do. And it kinda looks like you are doing just that

Says the guy who earlier argued that I should read him as town because he does the things Awaclus does as town...

[chairs]

Scummy players: WW, Awaclus, faust.

[pingpongsam]

For god's sake, please kill TA tomorrow.

[faust]

Scummy players: WW, Awaclus, faust.

Me? Really? Well okay I guess.

[pingpongsam]

Scummy players: WW, Awaclus, faust.

Why didn't you vote awaclus, then?

[faust]

You people should definitely look into lynching TA tomorrow, I agree with PPS in that one. I'm afraid I won't make it through the night.

[Twistedarcher]

You people should definitely look into lynching TA tomorrow, I agree with PPS in that one. I'm afraid I won't make it through the night.

alarm bells if PPS flips town and you're alive tomorrow.

[gkrieg13]

Ok I'm back and I don't see any mason claims.  I'm not super keen on lynching PPS because he is one of my null reads, but I will change my vote so it's not no lynch if I have to.  I think his flip will give us a lot of good information going into D2.

[yuma]

and pps is basing a scum read explanation above based off how HE says HE plays as scum. personally when i am scum i try to drive mislynches and then survive through any fallout.  i kinda feel like ta is the same way, so i don't think you can accurately make a case by comparing ta to pps, compare ta to ta.

Right, because no one ever does things differently from how they did them in previous games. I call it like I see it. Lynching me for seeing it is ridiculous.

you miss understand me. You are voting TA because he is playing like PPS plays as scum. That just isn't an accurate way to lynch. Cause I don't play the way you are saying you play, and I don't think TA does either... But you say you do. And it kinda looks like you are doing just that

Says the guy who earlier argued that I should read him as town because he does the things Awaclus does as town...

you don't know awaclus is town... so i was playing, as an experiment, the way awaclus was playing in this game, which you said was towny

i don't agree. for that period i was playing uberscummy, and so was awaclus, all game

[faust]

You people should definitely look into lynching TA tomorrow, I agree with PPS in that one. I'm afraid I won't make it through the night.

alarm bells if PPS flips town and you're alive tomorrow.

Fine, whatever. If I'm alive tomorrow I should be IC.

[Twistedarcher]

and pps is basing a scum read explanation above based off how HE says HE plays as scum. personally when i am scum i try to drive mislynches and then survive through any fallout.  i kinda feel like ta is the same way, so i don't think you can accurately make a case by comparing ta to pps, compare ta to ta.

Right, because no one ever does things differently from how they did them in previous games. I call it like I see it. Lynching me for seeing it is ridiculous.

you miss understand me. You are voting TA because he is playing like PPS plays as scum. That just isn't an accurate way to lynch. Cause I don't play the way you are saying you play, and I don't think TA does either... But you say you do. And it kinda looks like you are doing just that

Says the guy who earlier argued that I should read him as town because he does the things Awaclus does as town...

you don't know awaclus is town... so i was playing, as an experiment, the way awaclus was playing in this game, which you said was towny

i don't agree. for that period i was playing uberscummy, and so was awaclus, all game

It read more like extreme sarcasm than anything else to me. I didn't take it seriously and I don't know that anyone else did either.

[yuma]

exactly

[pingpongsam]

You people should definitely look into lynching TA tomorrow, I agree with PPS in that one. I'm afraid I won't make it through the night.

alarm bells if PPS flips town and you're alive tomorrow.

This is pure nonsense. Fact, I will flip town and when I do TA is the obvious prime candidate for the next lynch. Fact, Faust is as close to IC as we have now and me flipping town and him surviving do not change that.

[pingpongsam]

This is the stalemate lynch order you wanted, TA, don't try to squirm out from under it now.

[pingpongsam]

It's everything I can do not to self hammer right now.

[Twistedarcher]

This is the stalemate lynch order you wanted, TA, don't try to squirm out from under it now.

Oh yes I'm thrilled you are being lynched

[Witherweaver]

Is it too late to lynch Yuma?

[Twistedarcher]

Is it too late to lynch Yuma?

Yes, and he's town anyways

[pingpongsam]

But the natural consequence should be your lynch. This is what all the hard work was for.

I bet ashersky takes the hammer on both just to up his standings.

[yuma]

Is it too late to lynch Yuma?

tomorrow, tomorrow, there's always tomorrow.

its only a night away!

[Twistedarcher]

Who are your scum reads besides me, PPS?

[gkrieg13]

Ok I have to go so I'll hammer if there aren't any objections

[pingpongsam]

Awaclus and possibly maybe Yuma. You keep calling him sure town. If you know something other than he is your scum partner it would be super to tell us. I think WW deserves lynching but not sure he would flip scum.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: pps

[gkrieg13]

vote: pps

[gkrieg13]

oh ninja'd

[pingpongsam]

Sorry, I'd give ashersky the hammer stats but not someone I never played with before.

[Witherweaver]

So town?

[pingpongsam]

You actually have to ask?

[Witherweaver]

Well, yes, but I was getting a strong feeling you were before the hammer.

[pingpongsam]

I am town, no leg pulling. TA is scum, kill him already.

[yuma]

Ridic...

[Witherweaver]

Ridic...

I don't buy!

[ashersky]

I would have hammered before deadline.  No claim and self-hammer has to be VT or scum messing with the wagon.

[pingpongsam]

I soft-claimed VT from the very beginning.

[pingpongsam]

I was really surprised no one pointed that out.

[pingpongsam]

I refuse to claim.

BUT WHY? It will be fun!

Seriously. Have we ever had a game where we just mass claimed out of the gates. Conventional thinking has always been that it is bad. But do we have any empirical data to back this up or just theoretics?

Because the last time I claimed VT on day 1 they mislynched me.

[Witherweaver]

Looks like opposing the mass claim was pointless!

[pingpongsam]

I wasn't opposed, I participated. I said a I refused to claim and then immediately claimed. It was supposed to be funny. the reasons for why everyone missed it are the same reasons I got mislynched today.

[yuma]

Ridic...

I don't buy!

It is ridic regardless of alignment. Self voting is bad self hammer means you just don't give a damn so why even play?

[Witherweaver]

I wasn't opposed, I participated. I said a I refused to claim and then immediately claimed. It was supposed to be funny. the reasons for why everyone missed it are the same reasons I got mislynched today.

Well, shows you for being subtle. 

[pingpongsam]

Ridic...

I don't buy!

It is ridic regardless of alignment. Self voting is bad self hammer means you just don't give a damn so why even play?

Intent to hammer was posted. My lynch was a forgone conclusion and gkrieg could still be considered the hammer for wagon analysis. At that point it was about stats which suggests maybe I do care. Self voting, well we differ philosophically there but at least we got to hash out our opinions on it in this game. If I didn't care I would not have bothered to explain. maybe you just didn't bother to listen.

[Witherweaver]

Ridic...

I don't buy!

It is ridic regardless of alignment. Self voting is bad self hammer means you just don't give a damn so why even play?

Gkrieg was going to hammer; why does it even matter?

[pingpongsam]

Ridic...

I don't buy!

It is ridic regardless of alignment. Self voting is bad self hammer means you just don't give a damn so why even play?

Gkrieg was going to hammer; why does it even matter?

Because he detests my playstyle so much it isn't good enough to lynch me at all costs to the game but must further rub my nose in it. This is what I was talking about way earlier. With enough of this attitude the overall playerbase devolves into a dictated play style and it becomes rote and boring.

[Witherweaver]

I think you're exaggerating.  Also, Yuma could be scum here.

I like your play style, actually, but it makes it hard for me to get a read on  you.  (Which, I guess, could be a good thing.)

[yuma]

Missed the intent to hammer but still...

[yuma]

You can play however you want but if a majority finds it scummy you will get lynched. It isn't personal it is scum hunting. Pushing the envelope accomplishes nothing if you get lynched for it. Of course I still think you have a good chance of being scum so we can have this conversation after the game

[pingpongsam]

If that is the case then why insinuate that I shouldn't be playing at all?

[ashersky]

If that is the case then why insinuate that I shouldn't be playing at all?

I take it to mean that if you take staying alive as town so lightly, why play a game where you are more likely than not to be town.

As he mentions, all this is moot if you are scum.  Which, if you are, you would definitely string this along.  We're at like 44 pages of content already -- that's a ton and good for scum as it discourages re-reads.

I mean, I can come up with a scum narrative for this for you.  Most players I'd say 99% VT, 1 % scum.  Some riskier players, like 95% VT.  With you, 75%?

[yuma]

imma gonna take a flyer on this conversation for a later time cause it is devolving from in game stuff to out of game stuff and the ingame part makes the out of game unnecessarily complex

[Witherweaver]

Better take it to R/S/P/Mafia Fallout

[silverspawn]

Thread locked!

[silverspawn]

Final Vote Count Day 1

Awaclus (2): Witherweaver, Jimmmmm
Witherweaver (2): ashersky, gkrieg13
pingpongsam (7): Twistedarcher, faust, yuma, UmbrageOfSnow, Awaclus, chairs, pingpongsam
Twistedarcher (1): Hydrad

With 12 alive, it took 7 to lynch.

[silverspawn]

… they fell onto an expanse of white nothingness. Normally, this might have been a strange and potentially frightening thing, but right now, all Twilight could feel was immense relief that the music was no longer there. Her eyes filled with tears of joy, she leaned forward and drew Pinkie Pie into a hug.

“This... this is the most beautiful moment in my life.” Pinkie sniffed. Twilight smiled, and just nodded. There were no words powerful enough to give justice to her relief.

“Well,” she said once they had calmed down – which, admittedly, had taken over a minute. “What now?”

“I have no idea. But this place is pretty boring.”

'Boring' was certainly one was to describe it, Twilight thought. There was literally nothing there, no floor, no ceiling or sky, no walls, no objects of any kind. The only exceptions to this were Twilight herself, Pinkie Pie, the book, her quill, and her pot of ink.

Due to the lack of better options, Twilight kneeled down with a sigh, opening the book at a random page.

'Ah, you made it. Now, due to the relatively long time since our last visit...'

Twilight blinked at that, but then she just shrugged and continued,

'… I have come up with an idea for how to progress this uniquely constructed story. At least, sort of. Your first task will be to find the other players.'

That was all there was. After a few moments, Twilight attempted to ask the book written questions, hoping it would answer her like it had just done a few moments ago, but the book remained quiet. Tonguing the insides of her mouth in thought, she sat down on a particularly comfortable spot of whiteness (which was entirely indistinguishable from any other one, but still), and began to slowly spin the quill in her grasp.

“Pinke... any idea on how we can get more of our friends to this place?” It was worth a try.

“Nopy-dopy-lopey.”

“Mh...”

“Or wait, what if you just write it into your book?”

“I... guess?” Twilight's gaze switched between Pinkie and the book, until something in her mind clicked. “Yeah, actually, that's probably it.”

Twilight dunk the quill into the ink and floated it above the other page of the book, but instead of writing something, she put the quill onto the, well, nothingness beside her, and closed her eyes for several seconds. Eventually, she lifted it back up and began to write.

'It was a sunny day in Ponyville. Rarity was working on a dress, because making dresses was what she did for living. All was normal, when suddenly, a portal opened up beside her. Although she didn't know what was going to happen, she still felt curious, and so she went through it.'

Twilight's left eye twitched. The art of describing a subject in an analytical, factual, and compact manner, and the art of writing fiction were two very different things, and somehow, even though she had no comparison, she knew that what she had just written wasn't very good... at all.

And nothing had happened, either.

Twilight tensed her lips, her heart filled with a mixture of embarrassment and frustration.

“Pinkie?”

“Hmmm??”

“Can you read this out loud? Maybe it makes a difference.”

“Sure.” Much quicker than Twilight had anticipated, Pinkie snapped the book from the nothing and began to read.

“'It was a sunny day in Ponyville. Rarity was working on a dress, because making dresses was what she did for living. All was normal, when suddenly, a portal opened up beside her. Although she didn't know what was going to happen, she still felt curious, and so she went through it.' Wow, Twilight.” Pinkie giggled. “That one of the worst things I've ever read.”

Twilight blinked at the blunt insult of her story, the surprise at hearing something like this from Pinkie blocking out any anger that might have been there, or any disappointment upon the realization that, once again, nothing had happened. For a few seconds, she found herself wanting to react somehow but not knowing what to say.

“Hnnnnnnnnnnnnmgggggeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhh...!!!!” Twilight spat, but then, suddenly, something caught up to her, and she looked back at Pinkie and laughed, and Pinkie didn't take long to join in. Somehow, someway, Twilight had forgotten how much fun her friends could be. Her friends, and life, and everything.

Even this stupid nonsense that was going on right now.

Still chuckling, she turned back to the book. The answer was, after all, rather apparent, and she shouldn't have to think too hard to find it. The whole point the book had been making over and over was to avoid any sort of contrivances and be honest with the reader. Thus, it was unlikely to appreciate an arbitrary made-up portal that only served as a plot device.

'Rarity will now be put here, because I need her to complete this task.' As soon as Twilight had written that, the fashionista appeared beside her. 'And she will also know everything relevant so that we don't have to bother with exposition,' she added spontaneously.

“Afternoon, dear.” Rarity waited until Twilight had finished writing, then she stepped closer and gave her a short hug. “Say, how about we make this place a tad more... pleasant?”

Twilight shrugged. “Sure. What should I write?”





A pleasant tingling from the overarching sun slowly crept up Twilight's cheek. With a stifled giggle, she  stretched herself onto the couch, watching as Rarity wrote one final line into the book. As soon as the quill lost contact to the page, a multitude of palm trees sprouted out of the ground at breakneck speed, much to the delight of Fluttershy who, after a surprised squeal, couldn't be quick enough to fly out and examine them.

“Who'd have thought you'd  give us so much... nature?”

“Why, whatever could  you possibly mean by that?” Heaving herself upwards, Rarity raised an eyebrow at Twilight's remark. “Nature, dear, is a tremendous source of inspiration, just as long as-”

“You don't have to get your hooves dirty?”

“Precisely.” Rarity practically beamed, walking up to the railing of the little terrace whereon Twilight's couch was situated to adore the tremendous outlook. Behind them, Pinkie loosened herself from the remainder of the group, looking to take Rarity's spot as the prime mover of their little paradise.

“Well...” Twilight gave Pinkie a somewhat nervous glance. “This is all nice and beautiful, but it doesn't really help us to progress, does it?”

Rarity, who was still facing away from her, just shrugged at that, but Rainbow and Applejack moved over to take their seats on the couch beside Twilight.

So, what'cha wanna do then?

“I think we should-” But she interrupted herself. A sudden sinking feeling hit her breast, and she knew instantly that something had gone wrong. In fact, they had lost one of their players. But how..

With a cold chill running down her neck, Twilight lit her horn to remateralize directly in front of the book, shoving a surprised looking Pinkie away.

'You still have not found all players,' it read, 'but now one of your team members died. It was...'

Twilight gave the book a disbelieving stare, then her eyes wandered up to what Pinkie had written. Something inside her protested even before her mind drew the connection to what the book had said, and slowly, very slowly, the truth began to sink in.

“Pinkie Pie...” Twilight closed her eyes, doing her best to stay calm. "Congratulations. You just managed killed Grammar.”

“Uhm..” Pinkie gave a nervous giggle. “... ... ... oupsie?”

[silverspawn]

pingpongsam has been lynched. He was Grammar, a Vanilla Townie.

Night 1 begins now and lasts until September 23, 3 PM forum time.

[silverspawn]

“I'm really sorry, Twilight.”

“It's... okay.” Twilight had her eyes squeezed shot, rubbing her brow with her telekinesis. “It's not really your fault. The... book has some strange ideas. None of us could knew that we would lose a player just by...” She left the sentence unfinished. Turning around and opening her eyes, she saw with a shock that Pinkie's hair had become straight in the few seconds since she had last seen her. “Hey, Pinkie, it's fine. Really. I'm not mad.”

Pinkie nodded, but she didn't seem convinced. “It's just... I know how important winning this is for you, and I don't want to ruin it.”

“No, of course not.” Twilight took a step forward, carefully taking her friend into a gentle embrace. “We can still win this, too. It's just one player.”

Nopony said anything else, and for a while, Twilight was content with just holding the mare before her, and watching the outlying fauna.

Seemingly out of nowhere, an idea began to shape itself inside of her mind. Slowly, her gaze shifted back towards the book. If the book was capable of calling her friends to this place...

Her ears perked up. From somewhere far away, she could hear the distant tunes of a song. But it was entirely unlike the dissonant and jarring notes that had let her here; this one was soft, gentle, beautiful... but also full of pain, and somehow, someway, she knew that something precious had been lost. A dream forgotten. She could feel tears dwelling up inside her eyes. She did not understand.

[silverspawn]

faust has died in the night. He was Somnium Obmutum, the Universal Backup.

Day 2 starts now and ends at October 2, 3 pm forum time.

[ashersky]

Well.  Not a surprise.

[yuma]

Well.  Not a surprise.

No, not really... although I did a whole workup in my qt on different scenarios where faust could be mafia. lesson learned... wait until night is over to do the work.

But here are the reads I put down from last night pasted from the QT...

faust - there might be a way that he is fakeclaiming, but will see if he is NKed, regardless not a lynch for today unless something really weird goes down.
gkeirg - similar to faust, but probably more believable given his claim was first
TA - don't follow PPS's logic on this, still feel he is town, and the argument yesterday was town v town.
WW - scummier feel now
Awaclus - nothing has led me to believe that he is town, probably main person I would lynch today
chairs - on townier side, but less so after end of yesterday
Jimmmmm - not sure, not enough content to really tell
UoS - felt like he was townie, but given flip could see him as a person nudging along a mislynch. But probably not a main candidate for today
Hydrad - came off townier toward the end of the day

[ashersky]

You left me, and only me, off your list.

[Witherweaver]

So you had no read on Ash?

PPE: ~

[yuma]

You left me, and only me, off your list.

cause we are scum buddies!!!! ... no we aren't... 

you are pretty null still, as you always are day1. I am hoping to get a read off you today at some point

[Witherweaver]

Well,

Vote: Yuma

Not sure about TA, though I would say if Yuma is scum then TA looks worse.  Awaclus I still feel scummy on. 

Chairs null, Hydrad closer to null now.  I don't really have anything on Jimmmm or UoS.  Gkrieg, Ash town. 

[Hydrad]

And we are back!

Vote: TA

is my feeling. Although I doubt it will go anywhere now as I think PPS and faust were the only 2 that wanted to vote him with me.

[ashersky]

And we are back!

Vote: TA

is my feeling. Although I doubt it will go anywhere now as I think PPS and faust were the only 2 that wanted to vote him with me.

That's convenient for him.

[chairs]

Hmm. I had honestly anticipated the Mason to die, rather than the UB.

[Awaclus]

Her ears perked up. From somewhere far away, she could hear the distant tunes of a song. But it was entirely unlike the dissonant and jarring notes that had let her here; this one was soft, gentle, beautiful... but also full of pain, and somehow, someway, she knew that something precious had been lost. A dream forgotten. She could feel tears dwelling up inside her eyes. She did not understand.

Emmure is better though.

[ashersky]

Hmm. I had honestly anticipated the Mason to die, rather than the UB.

I think it's a setup-based kill for the scum team.  They know it's a minimum 3 Ms (since faust wasn't one of them).  If they figure it's a good chance the whole setup is only 3 Ms total (i.e., 1-shot strongman instead of full strongman), no need to PR hunt -- it's two masons plus faust, and then it's about killing the most dangerous townie.

I think if they had a full strongman, they'd be looking for more than just masons out there, and might PR hunt.

[ashersky]

We now also know it's a minimum 3 Ms.  Other PRs out there (if they exist, can start extrapolating setups).

[yuma]

Well,

Vote: Yuma

that's not nice. I am guessing this vote is more a continuation of  how you felt about me yesterday than any information provided by the flip?

[Twistedarcher]

Ugh, I can't believe I was wrong. Need to re-read D1 to reorient myself.

[Awaclus]

I told you we should have lynched WW.

[Witherweaver]

Well,

Vote: Yuma

that's not nice. I am guessing this vote is more a continuation of  how you felt about me yesterday than any information provided by the flip?

I expected Faust to die, so that didn't really change anything.

[Witherweaver]

I told you we should have lynched WW.

I guess if you're just determined to lynch Town no matter what.

[yuma]

I expected Faust to die, so that didn't really change anything.

I meant PPS's flip.

[yuma]

Vote: Witherweaver

He's certainly a better lynch than me.

This is the only time you said we should have lynched WW... and then you promptly changed your vote to PPS.

vote: awaclus for everything (strike that, the complete lack of everything yesterday) and for trying to remove himself from the PPS wagon and start up a new lynch today by giving himself undue credit that he was "right"

[Witherweaver]

I expected Faust to die, so that didn't really change anything.

I meant PPS's flip.

Well, if PPS were scum I'd reconsider you today.

[gkrieg13]

I'll vote: WW.  Nothing he has done has really convinced me otherwise.

[yuma]

Vote: Witherweaver

He's certainly a better lynch than me.

This is the only time you said we should have lynched WW... and then you promptly changed your vote to PPS.

vote: awaclus for everything (strike that, the complete lack of everything yesterday) and for trying to remove himself from the PPS wagon and start up a new lynch today by giving himself undue credit that he was "right"

By which I mean awaclus never actually said we should lynch ww, he only voted to save himself evidenced by leaving the ww wagon ASAP for pps. He wants to try and take credit for an idea (that makes him look better than he actually is) to lynch away from pps (confirmed town) and make us forget that he did vote for pps and (I am guessing here that ww is town, although I guess bussing would be possible) move us to another possible mislynch.

[Awaclus]

By which I mean awaclus never actually said we should lynch ww, he only voted to save himself evidenced by leaving the ww wagon ASAP for pps. He wants to try and take credit for an idea (that makes him look better than he actually is) to lynch away from pps (confirmed town) and make us forget that he did vote for pps and (I am guessing here that ww is town, although I guess bussing would be possible) move us to another possible mislynch.

I was voting for WW, I was arguing against WW, the only reason why I left for pps was that we needed a lynch, preferably a lynch that wasn't me, and WW wasn't very likely to happen at that point. I also did say that I would rather lynch WW when I was already voting for pps, but the WW wagon didn't appear there again. Also, it's just ridiculous to speculate if I'm bussing or trying to mislynch when I'm town.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

[vote]Awaclus[/vote]

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Errrr
Vote: Awaclus

[yuma]

By which I mean awaclus never actually said we should lynch ww, he only voted to save himself evidenced by leaving the ww wagon ASAP for pps. He wants to try and take credit for an idea (that makes him look better than he actually is) to lynch away from pps (confirmed town) and make us forget that he did vote for pps and (I am guessing here that ww is town, although I guess bussing would be possible) move us to another possible mislynch.

I was voting for WW, I was arguing against WW, the only reason why I left for pps was that we needed a lynch, preferably a lynch that wasn't me, and WW wasn't very likely to happen at that point. I also did say that I would rather lynch WW when I was already voting for pps, but the WW wagon didn't appear there again. Also, it's just ridiculous to speculate if I'm bussing or trying to mislynch when I'm town.

I don't know your alignment so it isn't ridiculous from my point of view. You are right that it will be better to figure out which you are doing if you do flip mafia, but in my analysis of whether you are mafia it is important to see if there are narratives for both, because if there isn't then maybe you aren't as good of a lynch. But both narratives work in this case.

[Jimmmmm]

I'll vote: WW.  Nothing he has done has really convinced me otherwise.

What convinces you he's scum?

[yuma]

I was voting for WW, I was arguing against WW, the only reason why I left for pps was that we needed a lynch, preferably a lynch that wasn't me, and WW wasn't very likely to happen at that point. I also did say that I would rather lynch WW when I was already voting for pps, but the WW wagon didn't appear there again. Also, it's just ridiculous to speculate if I'm bussing or trying to mislynch when I'm town.

Ok, yes you were voting for WW. I never said you weren't. But look at your vote. Never do you say, "vote: ww and others should to." nope. Just a simple vote because he is a better lynch than you.

And yes you are arguing with him. But what are you arguing with him about?

Here is the first post: keep in mind that WW response isn't to awaclus... it is too ashersky.... and then awaclus responds to WW

It's a pretty bad argument.

"Hey, you're innocuously acting within your town meta."

"Well, it's my meta as town."

"Yeah, which you would use to manipulate us as scum. Therefore you're scum."

Wouldn't I have to be aware of you highlighting this in the first place for me to plan this kind of utilization?

A good thing you're not using the exact same argument against me then.


Oh wait, you are though.

And here is another, but once again it is ashersky to whom WW is responding...

Why would I force out the real mason?

Indeed, why would you do that?

and then one more quote where Awaclus take's WW post of context by snipping off words...

I'm not, and I am.

Well, good for you then.

so not really much of an argument. And certainly no "hey guys! I think we should lynch WW! Look how scummy" he is moments. Not even a more subdued, "WW is a good lynch" not even a mediocre "Someone else should vote for WW."

Main Point: So again, I don't dispute that you voted for WW, or that you conversed (arguing seems like a stretch here) with him. I dispute what you said above that you told us that we should have lynched WW. You did not do that. You never did that. And trying to take credit for pushing a lynch on an unknown instead of taking some of the blame for the lynch you were actually on is scummy any way you try to spin it.

PS: also I didn't see anywhere that you stated you were willing to vote for WW while voting for PPS. If you can find it please quote it to us. Unless you mean the "I like you too <3" silliness...

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 2.1

Awaclus (2): yuma, UmbrageOfSnow
Witherweaver (1): gkrieg13
yuma (1): Witherweaver
Twistedarcher (1): Hydrad

Not Voting (5): Awaclus, ashersky, Twistedarcher, chairs, Jimmmmm

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends at October 02, 03 pm forum time. That is in 8 days and 16+ hours.

[Witherweaver]

Voting for me is bad and you should feel bad.

[Awaclus]

so not really much of an argument. And certainly no "hey guys! I think we should lynch WW! Look how scummy" he is moments. Not even a more subdued, "WW is a good lynch" not even a mediocre "Someone else should vote for WW."

That is a pretty clear "hey guys! I think we should lynch WW! Look how scummy he is" moment though.

And trying to take credit for pushing a lynch on an unknown instead of taking some of the blame for the lynch you were actually on is scummy any way you try to spin it.

Like I said, the only reason why I was on that lynch is that it was the best way to contribute towards a non-me lynch happening yesterday. I might take some of the blame for being a possible alternative lynch in the first place, but I certainly don't think I have to take any of the blame for the WW wagon dying while the PPS wagon was growing.

PS: also I didn't see anywhere that you stated you were willing to vote for WW while voting for PPS. If you can find it please quote it to us. Unless you mean the "I like you too <3" silliness...

It's not silliness and that's what I mean.

[ashersky]

I might take some of the blame for being a possible alternative lynch in the first place[...]

Look!  He's learning!

[Awaclus]

I might take some of the blame for being a possible alternative lynch in the first place[...]

Look!  He's learning!

My inactivity in particular was to blame, not my playstyle. Of course, the people who had scum reads on me were to blame as well.

[yuma]

None of that is good enough for me.

This sort of a response is the exact sort of response that makes people lose their town narrative on you. I am going to have a really hard time voting for anyone else today. I really think you are floundering scum at this point.

[Awaclus]

None of that is good enough for me.

This sort of a response is the exact sort of response that makes people lose their town narrative on you. I am going to have a really hard time voting for anyone else today. I really think you are floundering scum at this point.

So you're just arbitrarily convinced that I'm scum even though there's nothing to support that, and then my defense needs to be "good enough"?

[Witherweaver]

I don't even know why Awaclus is arguing against Yuma here. 

[yuma]

None of that is good enough for me.

This sort of a response is the exact sort of response that makes people lose their town narrative on you. I am going to have a really hard time voting for anyone else today. I really think you are floundering scum at this point.

So you're just arbitrarily convinced that I'm scum even though there's nothing to support that, and then my defense needs to be "good enough"?

I am not being arbitrary.

There is stuff to support what I said.

And it isn't just that your defense isn't good enough. Your defense is scummy. A townie narrative for you would have been to go back and admit, "oh... you were right, I didn't explicitly say that people should vote for WW. I did intend my vote to do that, but I can see why you would have thought otherwise."  Instead you immediately became defensive and tried to justify your post with weak explanations and forced arguments.

PPE: What do you mean WW. Do you agree with me or Awaclus?

[Witherweaver]

Everything you're saying is true; Awaclus is being argumentative.

It doesn't make me think you're not scum though.  And I don't particularly think it makes Awaclus look any more scummy.  Scum likes to appear consistent.

[yuma]

Everything you're saying is true; Awaclus is being argumentative.

It doesn't make me think you're not scum though.  And I don't particularly think it makes Awaclus look any more scummy.  Scum likes to appear consistent.

I don't really care whether or not you think I am scum. I care whether or not you think I might be on to something. And again, I don't really care about the argumentative part, it is him trying to spin things in a slightly better light to avoid getting lynched down the road.

And yes scum like to be consistent. And awaclus was being consistent to an extent. It wasnt' like he said he had changed reads on you. Instead he added untrue (or at least not publicly announced) context to that read to make himself look better. He isnt' being inconsistent. He is making himself look better. and that is scummy.

[Witherweaver]

Okay; I don't think it makes him scummier here. 

[yuma]

Okay; I don't think it makes him scummier here.

alright. What do others think? I am not an IC so I can't demand people give opinions but maybe if gkeirg wants to take this up. Cause I really think I am onto something, but of others don't agree... maybe I am seeing something that isnt' actually there?

[ashersky]

You might be right, but I think the reasons you are giving aren't convincing to us non-yumas.

I mean, I definitely get the "he's so scummy" thing, but some of the stuff you are pointing out just isn't resonating with me (and it seems not with WW, for example).

[yuma]

K. Part of that is that I am typing from work so am in a rush trying to get my thoughts out. I'll reiterate what I am seeing later when I get home in hopefully a more succinct manner.

[chairs]

I'm actually feeling mild town on Awaclus, because this feels more like town!Awaclus than scum!Awaclus.

[Awaclus]

And it isn't just that your defense isn't good enough. Your defense is scummy. A townie narrative for you would have been to go back and admit, "oh... you were right, I didn't explicitly say that people should vote for WW. I did intend my vote to do that, but I can see why you would have thought otherwise."  Instead you immediately became defensive and tried to justify your post with weak explanations and forced arguments.

No, that would be a weird narrative. This is what I do as town.

And yes scum like to be consistent. And awaclus was being consistent to an extent. It wasnt' like he said he had changed reads on you. Instead he added untrue (or at least not publicly announced) context to that read to make himself look better. He isnt' being inconsistent. He is making himself look better. and that is scummy.

Huh?  Of course the context was true. Why would I type up posts arbitrarily and wait until now to come up with the context, even if I was scum?

Also, I always make myself look better. I think townies should make themselves look better.

[yuma]

oh right you are town. how dumb of me to forget...

unvote

[yuma]

i mean... why even play the game? everyone is town cause everyone says they are town and when something comes up to make them look scummy, they just say, "forget it man! I am town, obviously."

and then we no lynch every day

and mafia slowly picks us off one by one

sounds like a fun game to play...

[yuma]

permanent vote: awaclus

I am not changing my vote for the rest of the game.

[yuma]

and i read over what I posted about awaclus and feel fine with it. It is clear enough and states what I wanted it to state. Take it or leave it. I think it is worth something, if you have specific questions let me know and I'll answer them but I am not going to clutter up the thread repeating what i said over and over again (i have done enough of that this game already)

[Witherweaver]

And it isn't just that your defense isn't good enough. Your defense is scummy. A townie narrative for you would have been to go back and admit, "oh... you were right, I didn't explicitly say that people should vote for WW. I did intend my vote to do that, but I can see why you would have thought otherwise."  Instead you immediately became defensive and tried to justify your post with weak explanations and forced arguments.

No, that would be a weird narrative. This is what I do as town.

And yes scum like to be consistent. And awaclus was being consistent to an extent. It wasnt' like he said he had changed reads on you. Instead he added untrue (or at least not publicly announced) context to that read to make himself look better. He isnt' being inconsistent. He is making himself look better. and that is scummy.

Huh?  Of course the context was true. Why would I type up posts arbitrarily and wait until now to come up with the context, even if I was scum?

Also, I always make myself look better. I think townies should make themselves look better.

This is all kinds of pointlessness.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm not, and I am.

Well, good for you then.

so not really much of an argument. And certainly no "hey guys! I think we should lynch WW! Look how scummy" he is moments. Not even a more subdued, "WW is a good lynch" not even a mediocre "Someone else should vote for WW."

That is a pretty clear "hey guys! I think we should lynch WW! Look how scummy he is" moment though.

It looks a lot more clear when you claim it's clear without quoting it.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm actually feeling mild town on Awaclus, because this feels more like town!Awaclus than scum!Awaclus.

Could you elaborate on why?  I'm feeling the opposite.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Yuma, I think you are letting Awaclus get to you too much and your frustration is causing you to write your posts in a way that is making people give them less credence.

I think he's scum too, but not ever scummy or illogical or infuriating thing he says is something that makes him more likely to be scum.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

But I really don't remember Awaclus twisting the truth so much to make himself look better as town.  This ridiculous terrible defense looks like scum!Awaclus to me.

[yuma]

Yuma, I think you are letting Awaclus get to you too much and your frustration is causing you to write your posts in a way that is making people give them less credence.

I think he's scum too, but not ever scummy or illogical or infuriating thing he says is something that makes him more likely to be scum.

I believe all of the posts I made before Awaclus made me frustrated were perfectly understandable. But according to a few still didn't hold up credence. Don't know why, I think I make a valid point.

And you are right he is frustrating me. So lynching him would be a win/win. First most I want to lynch him cause I think he is scum, secondly because he is a distraction and frustrating and I think we will be able to have a better chance of winning this game if we lynch him compared to anyone else. That might be kinda mean to say, but I am saying it.

[Awaclus]

But I really don't remember Awaclus twisting the truth so much to make himself look better as town.  This ridiculous terrible defense looks like scum!Awaclus to me.

I'm not twisting the truth, I'm telling the truth. And I've done that as town pretty much every time I've been town.

[Awaclus]

i mean... why even play the game? everyone is town cause everyone says they are town and when something comes up to make them look scummy, they just say, "forget it man! I am town, obviously."

and then we no lynch every day

and mafia slowly picks us off one by one

sounds like a fun game to play...

But why lynch me arbitrarily instead of someone who's actually scummy?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

But I really don't remember Awaclus twisting the truth so much to make himself look better as town.  This ridiculous terrible defense looks like scum!Awaclus to me.

I'm not twisting the truth, I'm telling the truth. And I've done that as town pretty much every time I've been town.

So you're not twisting the truth now, but you usually do that as town?

[yuma]

I'm not twisting the truth, I'm telling the truth. And I've done that as town pretty much every time I've been town.

show us where you specifically said "

I told you we should have lynched WW.

"

exactly where did you say that. Where did you even allude to it.

and no, voting for someone doesn't mean that you want others to vote there as well. It doesn't and to say that it does stretches and twists the truth.

Can you really not see that?

[yuma]

i mean... why even play the game? everyone is town cause everyone says they are town and when something comes up to make them look scummy, they just say, "forget it man! I am town, obviously."

and then we no lynch every day

and mafia slowly picks us off one by one

sounds like a fun game to play...

But why lynch me arbitrarily instead of someone who's actually scummy?

DAMN IT YOU ARE SCUMMY!

[yuma]

dayvig: awaclus

[chairs]

ugh forget it, we're not getting through this Day meaningfully unless we just vote: awaclus, that much is clear.

[Awaclus]

So you're not twisting the truth now, but you usually do that as town?

No, I usually do telling the truth to make myself look better.

[Awaclus]

I'm not twisting the truth, I'm telling the truth. And I've done that as town pretty much every time I've been town.

show us where you specifically said "

I told you we should have lynched WW.

"

exactly where did you say that. Where did you even allude to it.

and no, voting for someone doesn't mean that you want others to vote there as well. It doesn't and to say that it does stretches and twists the truth.

Can you really not see that?

Voting for someone means I want to lynch that person. I also argued against WW, which means I wanted to lynch him. I also replied to WW's post about wanting to lynch me saying that I also want to lynch him. Using your logic, I guess you don't really want to lynch me either.

[Awaclus]

DAMN IT YOU ARE SCUMMY!

There is no reason to believe that I'm scummy.

[Awaclus]

ugh forget it, we're not getting through this Day meaningfully unless we just vote: awaclus, that much is clear.

Yeah, let's just lynch the townie and let scum kill another townie in the night because of a nonsensical case on him. Great idea, town will surely win this game if we do that every day.

[yuma]

Voting for someone means I want to lynch that person. I also argued against WW, which means I wanted to lynch him. I also replied to WW's post about wanting to lynch me saying that I also want to lynch him. Using your logic, I guess you don't really want to lynch me either.

using my logic: if I had just voted you and then had a few barbs with you/WW but really responding to WW then sure... I wouldn't really want to lynch you either (or you could say that)

But I am not doing that, I am vocally, loudly and clearly asking others to say what they think of what I have seen, publically saying you are scummy, encouraging others to read and vote. You didn't. You masked your vote and conversation in hushed tones in back alleys and in between the lines along with silliness and jokes.

[yuma]

DAMN IT YOU ARE SCUMMY!

There is no reason to believe that I'm scummy.

there is no reason to believe that you are townie.

[yuma]

ok, now I am actually done with this conversation. Vote awaclus, don't vote awaclus. But i have said what I wanted to say. if you (meaning any one in this game) have a specific question about what I think about this feel free to ask. For once I am going to try and have some self control.

[yuma]

ugh forget it, we're not getting through this Day meaningfully unless we just vote: awaclus, that much is clear.

Yeah, let's just lynch the townie and let scum kill another townie in the night because of a nonsensical case on him. Great idea, town will surely win this game if we do that every day.

Who do you want to lynch then? have you said anyone yet? No... No one yet?

What a surprise...

[Awaclus]

ugh forget it, we're not getting through this Day meaningfully unless we just vote: awaclus, that much is clear.

Yeah, let's just lynch the townie and let scum kill another townie in the night because of a nonsensical case on him. Great idea, town will surely win this game if we do that every day.

Who do you want to lynch then? have you said anyone yet? No... No one yet?

What a surprise...

Well, I told you I told you we should have lynched WW. I guess I could contribute towards that actually happening today. Vote: WW

[yuma]

Well, I told you I told you we should have lynched WW. I guess I could contribute towards that actually happening today. Vote: WW

Now that is how you publicly state that you want to lynch WW and that you want others to do it as well.

Well done, cheerio good chap!

[Hydrad]

ugh forget it, we're not getting through this Day meaningfully unless we just vote: awaclus, that much is clear.

while I find awa scummy. this posts just feels forced? or something? I don't know why but if awa ever flips town I'm looking at chairs.

[Hydrad]

I'm ok with lynching awaclus. I don't find him on the top of my list like I feel about TA but I wouldn't be too disappointed for him to get lynched since hes still on the scummy side.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm ok with lynching awaclus. I don't find him on the top of my list like I feel about TA but I wouldn't be too disappointed for him to get lynched since hes still on the scummy side.

So what makes TA the top of your list?

[Hydrad]

I'm ok with lynching awaclus. I don't find him on the top of my list like I feel about TA but I wouldn't be too disappointed for him to get lynched since hes still on the scummy side.

So what makes TA the top of your list?

part of it is just the fact that yesterday his lynch just wouldn't budge. I felt like at some point lots of people were saying they found TA scummy but when I tried to get the lynch going no one really jumped on and when faust and PPS tried again later still it was just us.

Then I guess I have the bad feeling that now that faust and PPS are dead that it works perfectly for TA if he is scum as he has a low chance of being lynched for a bit since most people against him are gone.

that plus just a gut kinda feeling on him makes him top of my scum list!

[yuma]

I'm ok with lynching awaclus. I don't find him on the top of my list like I feel about TA but I wouldn't be too disappointed for him to get lynched since hes still on the scummy side.

So what makes TA the top of your list?

part of it is just the fact that yesterday his lynch just wouldn't budge. I felt like at some point lots of people were saying they found TA scummy but when I tried to get the lynch going no one really jumped on and when faust and PPS tried again later still it was just us.

you could say the same thing about the Awaclus lynch yesterday. It kept stalling at 4 votes.

[gkrieg13]

I'll vote: WW.  Nothing he has done has really convinced me otherwise.

What convinces you he's scum?

A lot of it is just gut.  I don't feel he has been doing genuine scum hunting, and a lot of his posts don't have a lot of content.  He has the appearance of being active without being active.

uhhh... PPE: 30  I'll get on that and post again.

[gkrieg13]

Ugh, I can't believe I was wrong. Need to re-read D1 to reorient myself.

This reads really scummy to me. 

None of that is good enough for me.

This sort of a response is the exact sort of response that makes people lose their town narrative on you. I am going to have a really hard time voting for anyone else today. I really think you are floundering scum at this point.

This weakens my town-read on you slightly.  I really don't think this is floundering scum at this point.  This seems similar to how town!Awaclus has acted before to me. 

alright. What do others think? I am not an IC so I can't demand people give opinions but maybe if gkeirg wants to take this up. Cause I really think I am onto something, but of others don't agree... maybe I am seeing something that isnt' actually there?

Especially when combined with this.  Why are you trying to put this on me?  I don't see Awaclus's play up to this point as very scummy.  He has been getting reads by seeing how other people react to him.  It's not my playstyle but it works for him I guess. 

Actually with your posts, it seems like we are at LYLO or something.  I think voting someone just because you don't like their playstyle, and they might be scum, is really scummy to me.  Sure maybe we don't like how someone plays, but that's not a reason to lynch someone.

ugh forget it, we're not getting through this Day meaningfully unless we just vote: awaclus, that much is clear.

This feels very forced to me as well.  Especially when he had a weak defense of Awaclus earlier in the page. 

Hmmmm.  I'm now at more scum reads than we have scum.  TA reads scummy to me, yuma seems scummier after the interaction, chairs seems scummy off that one post, and WW still is my top scum read.   Hydrad seems townier to me though. 

[Witherweaver]

I'll vote: WW.  Nothing he has done has really convinced me otherwise.

What convinces you he's scum?

A lot of it is just gut.  I don't feel he has been doing genuine scum hunting, and a lot of his posts don't have a lot of content.  He has the appearance of being active without being active.

uhhh... PPE: 30  I'll get on that and post again.

I have some trouble believing this. 

[gkrieg13]

I'll vote: WW.  Nothing he has done has really convinced me otherwise.

What convinces you he's scum?

A lot of it is just gut.  I don't feel he has been doing genuine scum hunting, and a lot of his posts don't have a lot of content.  He has the appearance of being active without being active.

uhhh... PPE: 30  I'll get on that and post again.

I have some trouble believing this.

which part?

[Witherweaver]

That a lot of my posts "don't have a lot of content" and I have "the appearance of being active without being active".

[Witherweaver]

Well, I mean, that you feel that way.

[gkrieg13]

You have a hard time believing I feel that way?  I definitely feel that you haven't appeared to scum hunt.  If you look at the middle of D1, you tend to jump on wagons that you feel will go to completion.  I guess that is also a town trait.  Maybe I'm just tunnelling you.  I'll read the rest of D1 and figure out my thoughts.  I should probably be more sure in my reads as the IC.

[yuma]

Especially when combined with this.  Why are you trying to put this on me?  I don't see Awaclus's play up to this point as very scummy.  He has been getting reads by seeing how other people react to him.  It's not my playstyle but it works for him I guess. 

I am asking you as a quasi-IC to request that other players give opinions on this. If I ask, people will just say "How dare you force us to give opinions, who do you think you are? An IC?"

[UmbrageOfSnow]

That a lot of my posts "don't have a lot of content" and I have "the appearance of being active without being active".

I was having trouble believing that took him 2 and a half hours to type.

[yuma]

Actually with your posts, it seems like we are at LYLO or something.  I think voting someone just because you don't like their playstyle, and they might be scum, is really scummy to me.  Sure maybe we don't like how someone plays, but that's not a reason to lynch someone.

No. No. No. I am not voting for him for his playstyle. i am frustrated with him because of his playstyle. i am voting him, especially now in day2, because of what he said at the beginning of the day.

The "I told you so" line is an inheritently scummy thing to say, along with the way he said it, embellishing and stretching the truth of him telling us to lynch WW. Along with how he has responded to this pressure.

His playstyle is annoying. Yes, but that is just an added bonus if we lynch him. i want him lynched cause I think he has a really, really good chance of being scum.

For those familiar with these games, I am as confident as I was when I day vigged WW and when I tried to lynch mail-mi in Pirates and stupidly let other people talk me out of it and end up being part of a mislynch to lose the game. But I am not being talked out of this one...

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Especially when combined with this.  Why are you trying to put this on me?  I don't see Awaclus's play up to this point as very scummy.  He has been getting reads by seeing how other people react to him.  It's not my playstyle but it works for him I guess. 

I am asking you as a quasi-IC to request that other players give opinions on this. If I ask, people will just say "How dare you force us to give opinions, who do you think you are? An IC?"

Demanding opinions of others is fun though.

What do you think, TA?

[Witherweaver]

Actually with your posts, it seems like we are at LYLO or something.  I think voting someone just because you don't like their playstyle, and they might be scum, is really scummy to me.  Sure maybe we don't like how someone plays, but that's not a reason to lynch someone.

No. No. No. I am not voting for him for his playstyle. i am frustrated with him because of his playstyle. i am voting him, especially now in day2, because of what he said at the beginning of the day.

The "I told you so" line is an inheritently scummy thing to say, along with the way he said it, embellishing and stretching the truth of him telling us to lynch WW. Along with how he has responded to this pressure.

His playstyle is annoying. Yes, but that is just an added bonus if we lynch him. i want him lynched cause I think he has a really, really good chance of being scum.

For those familiar with these games, I am as confident as I was when I day vigged WW and when I tried to lynch mail-mi in Pirates and stupidly let other people talk me out of it and end up being part of a mislynch to lose the game. But I am not being talked out of this one...

Liar.  You night vigged me.

[yuma]

Liar.  You night vigged me.

lynch all liars!!!

I did...? I could have sworn that I day vigged you... regardless I was right, wasn't I?

[yuma]

Especially when combined with this.  Why are you trying to put this on me?  I don't see Awaclus's play up to this point as very scummy.  He has been getting reads by seeing how other people react to him.  It's not my playstyle but it works for him I guess. 

I am asking you as a quasi-IC to request that other players give opinions on this. If I ask, people will just say "How dare you force us to give opinions, who do you think you are? An IC?"

Demanding opinions of others is fun though.

What do you think, TA?

I personally have not had much fun with it. People have said some pretty nasty things (mafia related things) when I have demanded people to be accountable. I don't want to go down that road because, honestly, it isn't fun to have a bunch of people be really demeaning when we have an IC that they have to respect ask the same thing.

[Witherweaver]

Liar.  You night vigged me.

lynch all liars!!!

I did...? I could have sworn that I day vigged you... regardless I was right, wasn't I?

You day vigged ADK, who turned out to be town.  Then you night vigged me, though you lied there and said (implied) that you were only a Dayvig.  Should have lynched you!

And actually, I was killed by the SK at the same time~  I had a knack of getting night killed as scum back then.

[gkrieg13]

That a lot of my posts "don't have a lot of content" and I have "the appearance of being active without being active".

I was having trouble believing that took him 2 and a half hours to type.

To be fair I started and then had to go to class then came back and finished it.

Ok I get what you were saying now yuma.

Rereading the end of D1 real quick brought up the real reason why I wanted to lynch ww.  He said that he wanted to claim mason and that he had left a breadcrumb back when I claimed.  This seemed to me like something scum could do so that when I died, they could claim to be the other mason.  That idea read incredibly scummy to me.

PPE 4.  I get what you are saying yuma, but the way you are saying it seems scummy to me.  Refusing to lynch anyone but one person that you're tunnelling is scummy.

PPE 2, nothing important to me.

[gkrieg13]

yuma how do you feel about WW?

[yuma]

PPE 4.  I get what you are saying yuma, but the way you are saying it seems scummy to me.  Refusing to lynch anyone but one person that you're tunnelling is scummy.

Well as long as you understand what I am saying I am happy. I am not trying to be scummy, but I think my emotion is making me look scummy, which is unfortunate, but when I get excited I have a hard time controlling my emotion and people reading me as scummy will just have to be part of that process. I hope it never gets to the point where people would want to mislynch me, but I am not going to back down from what I think is a good read just because other people find me scummy for it.

And I agree that some people might find stubbornness scummy, it is just that I have a hard time seeing anyone come up with something better (unless it is some sort of counterclaim/investigation case) for the next long while. It would be like trading a 70% chance for a 40% chance (with random lynch being about 33%... for context) I just don't see anyone else getting up to 70%.

[ashersky]

I think gkrieg is right about WW not scumhunting.

I think yuma is right about Awaclus being annoying.

I think one of those is a much better reason to lynch than the other.

I think a lot of players are yet again absent, and my own personal feeling is we need to punish lurking because it's killing the community.

[yuma]

yuma how do you feel about WW?

he is on the scummier side. Probably my second highest scum read. But I haven't seen anything that is as much of a red flag as what I am seeing with Awaclus.

Plus I try really hard to not lynch for weird behavior, which is what that mason thing was, it was weird. It wasn't necessarily scummy. Town does weird things all the time... and while it is hard to separate them, and it is something that I dont' always do, it is something I am trying to do.

So actually I think I just talked myself out of a large scum read on him. He isn't a towny read, but I don't think I want to lynch him.

[yuma]

I think yuma is right about Awaclus being annoying.

but my case isn't about him being annoying. it is about him being scummy

[Witherweaver]

You have a hard time believing I feel that way?  I definitely feel that you haven't appeared to scum hunt.  If you look at the middle of D1, you tend to jump on wagons that you feel will go to completion.  I guess that is also a town trait.  Maybe I'm just tunnelling you.  I'll read the rest of D1 and figure out my thoughts.  I should probably be more sure in my reads as the IC.

I voted Awaclus because he's Awaclus, and someone else voted him (for not a terrible reason), and I like wagons.  I was the second vote there and it was like the first day, so I'm not sure how I would have this knowledge of it going to completion.

I voted PPS because it was a leading wagon and I wanted to see what would happen.

I voted Hydrad because Ash voted him and Hydrad was scummy.  Again second vote, I think.

I voted Awaclus again because scum!Awaclus.

I continued to try to push Awaclus and people would not bite.

I voted Yuma because he went back to "I don't have any scum reads" at like the end of the day.  And his argument with Faust felt disingenuous.  Though I actually think that post was Yuma being sarcastic or something.

I voted Awaclus again because obviously.

I had actually thought I voted Hydrad more, but I guess not.  I recall there was a large time throughout Day 1 where I would have switched back to him, though my scum read on him lessened as the day went on. 

I don't think I did enough jumping on wagons, honestly.  I should have jumped on more.  I was actually actively trying to get wagons going throughout Day 1.  Getting people under lynch pressure is useful to figuring out if they're town or scum, along with getting interactions if at some point they do indeed flip scum. 

[Awaclus]

The "I told you so" line is an inheritently scummy thing to say, along with the way he said it, embellishing and stretching the truth of him telling us to lynch WW. Along with how he has responded to this pressure.

It super isn't. I've done it as town before, and here I just did it as town again.

[Witherweaver]

That a lot of my posts "don't have a lot of content" and I have "the appearance of being active without being active".

I was having trouble believing that took him 2 and a half hours to type.

To be fair I started and then had to go to class then came back and finished it.

Ok I get what you were saying now yuma.

Rereading the end of D1 real quick brought up the real reason why I wanted to lynch ww.  He said that he wanted to claim mason and that he had left a breadcrumb back when I claimed.  This seemed to me like something scum could do so that when I died, they could claim to be the other mason.  That idea read incredibly scummy to me.

Except that's... idiotic?  Unless you mean I as scum was hoping to get myself in a one-on-one counterclaim situation with the real Mason some point down the road?  Aside from that relying on futrue behavior I couldn't predict (note also we all kind of agreed that Mason would claim before the day ended), I think that would be directly counterproductive to scum win con.  A more convincing argument would be I concocted this entire thing because that's what scum!me would think town!me would do, in which case I wish I could play scum like that.

[Witherweaver]

The "I told you so" line is an inheritently scummy thing to say, along with the way he said it, embellishing and stretching the truth of him telling us to lynch WW. Along with how he has responded to this pressure.

It super isn't. I've done it as town before, and here I just did it as town again.

You've acted exactly like this as scum before.  This is just a fact and you misrepresenting it is annoying.

[Awaclus]

The "I told you so" line is an inheritently scummy thing to say, along with the way he said it, embellishing and stretching the truth of him telling us to lynch WW. Along with how he has responded to this pressure.

It super isn't. I've done it as town before, and here I just did it as town again.

You've acted exactly like this as scum before.  This is just a fact and you misrepresenting it is annoying.

It's not a fact and it does not become one even if you repeat it over and over.

[yuma]

The "I told you so" line is an inheritently scummy thing to say, along with the way he said it, embellishing and stretching the truth of him telling us to lynch WW. Along with how he has responded to this pressure.

It super isn't. I've done it as town before, and here I just did it as town again.

Just cause you did it as town before doesn't make it a townie thing to do. I will admit that town will, on occasion do scummy things. But saying "I told you so" is scummy. It certainly isnt' townie. Because benefit does saying "I told you so" accomplish?

The only thing it does is pat yourself on the back. It doesn't make you look any townier. It doesn't make anyone trust you any more (or at least it shouldn't). All it does is separate and alienate the town from you, which if you are town, isn't a good thing.

And again, you didn't ever tell us so. You just didn't. I will go to my grave saying that you didn't, because you didn't. There is a perfectly clear record showing that you never told us so.

[Witherweaver]

If you had only ever played this way as town before, your arguments would have a little bit of merit.  But since you've done precisely this in  your scum games, it has zero credibility.  All your criticisms of people having scum reads on you would be equivalent as criticisms for people having town reads on you.  Ultimately it's just going to come down to the person's feeling.

[Witherweaver]

The "I told you so" line is an inheritently scummy thing to say, along with the way he said it, embellishing and stretching the truth of him telling us to lynch WW. Along with how he has responded to this pressure.

It super isn't. I've done it as town before, and here I just did it as town again.

Funnily enough, Ichi was town in that game too.

[yuma]

WW why are you voting for me over awaclus again?

[Witherweaver]

I actually don't feel as strongly about him as I did yesterday.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

The "I told you so" line is an inheritently scummy thing to say, along with the way he said it, embellishing and stretching the truth of him telling us to lynch WW. Along with how he has responded to this pressure.

It super isn't. I've done it as town before, and here I just did it as town again.

Super disappointed that Ichi doesn't seem to be happening today. Vote: ADK then.

But in that game you actually did.

[gkrieg13]

That a lot of my posts "don't have a lot of content" and I have "the appearance of being active without being active".

I was having trouble believing that took him 2 and a half hours to type.

To be fair I started and then had to go to class then came back and finished it.

Ok I get what you were saying now yuma.

Rereading the end of D1 real quick brought up the real reason why I wanted to lynch ww.  He said that he wanted to claim mason and that he had left a breadcrumb back when I claimed.  This seemed to me like something scum could do so that when I died, they could claim to be the other mason.  That idea read incredibly scummy to me.

Except that's... idiotic?  Unless you mean I as scum was hoping to get myself in a one-on-one counterclaim situation with the real Mason some point down the road?  Aside from that relying on futrue behavior I couldn't predict (note also we all kind of agreed that Mason would claim before the day ended), I think that would be directly counterproductive to scum win con.  A more convincing argument would be I concocted this entire thing because that's what scum!me would think town!me would do, in which case I wish I could play scum like that.

Well you did want to do it as town, which I would have refuted your claim and you would've been mislynched for being idiotic.  So I can see it coming from scum!you.

[gkrieg13]

You have a hard time believing I feel that way?  I definitely feel that you haven't appeared to scum hunt.  If you look at the middle of D1, you tend to jump on wagons that you feel will go to completion.  I guess that is also a town trait.  Maybe I'm just tunnelling you.  I'll read the rest of D1 and figure out my thoughts.  I should probably be more sure in my reads as the IC.

I voted Awaclus because he's Awaclus, and someone else voted him (for not a terrible reason), and I like wagons.  I was the second vote there and it was like the first day, so I'm not sure how I would have this knowledge of it going to completion.

I voted PPS because it was a leading wagon and I wanted to see what would happen.

I voted Hydrad because Ash voted him and Hydrad was scummy.  Again second vote, I think.

I voted Awaclus again because scum!Awaclus.

I continued to try to push Awaclus and people would not bite.

I voted Yuma because he went back to "I don't have any scum reads" at like the end of the day.  And his argument with Faust felt disingenuous.  Though I actually think that post was Yuma being sarcastic or something.

I voted Awaclus again because obviously.

I had actually thought I voted Hydrad more, but I guess not.  I recall there was a large time throughout Day 1 where I would have switched back to him, though my scum read on him lessened as the day went on. 

I don't think I did enough jumping on wagons, honestly.  I should have jumped on more.  I was actually actively trying to get wagons going throughout Day 1.  Getting people under lynch pressure is useful to figuring out if they're town or scum, along with getting interactions if at some point they do indeed flip scum.

I guess trying to get wagons going isn't scummy.  It's that you tried to get so many wagons going that is scummy

[Witherweaver]

The "I told you so" line is an inheritently scummy thing to say, along with the way he said it, embellishing and stretching the truth of him telling us to lynch WW. Along with how he has responded to this pressure.

It super isn't. I've done it as town before, and here I just did it as town again.

You've acted exactly like this as scum before.  This is just a fact and you misrepresenting it is annoying.

It's not a fact and it does not become one even if you repeat it over and over.

My quoting made me kind of misspeak.  The "this" there refers to your insistence that you're town because you're acting how you've acted as town before.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I believe that Awaclus putting in the effort to find a game where he said close to the same thing and was town, but where the situation was actually different from what we're arguing about is something more likely to come from scum!Awaclus.

Look at Buffy, look at Pony Pony Mafia, in both of those he is much more concerned with avoiding lynch even if the argument is bad, or takes a lot of work, or doesn't quite hold up under scrutiny than he is in his recent town games.

This isn't just Awaclus misrepresenting the truth as part of his town meta, which, I mean...

This is Awaclus grasping at straws to defend himself in a way he does as scum.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

For what it's worth, I'd have totally played along with WW's mason claim or told my mason buddy to play along if I were the mason.

[Witherweaver]

You have a hard time believing I feel that way?  I definitely feel that you haven't appeared to scum hunt.  If you look at the middle of D1, you tend to jump on wagons that you feel will go to completion.  I guess that is also a town trait.  Maybe I'm just tunnelling you.  I'll read the rest of D1 and figure out my thoughts.  I should probably be more sure in my reads as the IC.

I voted Awaclus because he's Awaclus, and someone else voted him (for not a terrible reason), and I like wagons.  I was the second vote there and it was like the first day, so I'm not sure how I would have this knowledge of it going to completion.

I voted PPS because it was a leading wagon and I wanted to see what would happen.

I voted Hydrad because Ash voted him and Hydrad was scummy.  Again second vote, I think.

I voted Awaclus again because scum!Awaclus.

I continued to try to push Awaclus and people would not bite.

I voted Yuma because he went back to "I don't have any scum reads" at like the end of the day.  And his argument with Faust felt disingenuous.  Though I actually think that post was Yuma being sarcastic or something.

I voted Awaclus again because obviously.

I had actually thought I voted Hydrad more, but I guess not.  I recall there was a large time throughout Day 1 where I would have switched back to him, though my scum read on him lessened as the day went on. 

I don't think I did enough jumping on wagons, honestly.  I should have jumped on more.  I was actually actively trying to get wagons going throughout Day 1.  Getting people under lynch pressure is useful to figuring out if they're town or scum, along with getting interactions if at some point they do indeed flip scum.

I guess trying to get wagons going isn't scummy.  It's that you tried to get so many wagons going that is scummy

Hey I wouldn't have had to try if people would have lynched who I wanted to lynch. 

Also, it's not.  Kind of the opposite, really.   As town anyone could be scum.  As scum I have to worry about who I push, how it looks, etc.   Also I wouldn't want to lynch my partners. 

[Hydrad]

Hmmm

awaclus is starting to become my top scum read instead of TA.

[Witherweaver]

For what it's worth, I'd have totally played along with WW's mason claim or told my mason buddy to play along if I were the mason.

Have we ever had Masons that have had their QT locked during the day before?

[Hydrad]

For what it's worth, I'd have totally played along with WW's mason claim or told my mason buddy to play along if I were the mason.

I feel like I may have reacted the same way? although as long as I would be able to stop myself from instantly claiming thinking I obviously caught scum before realizing that it might just be town doing that to take a bullet.

[ashersky]

For what it's worth, I'd have totally played along with WW's mason claim or told my mason buddy to play along if I were the mason.

Really?  Doesn't that just negate any positive utility you have whatsoever as a mason?

This sounds like a forced support of a terrible idea and it makes me think you have a high likelihood of being WW's scumpartner.  It's just so incredibly insane and wrong and UOS is never this wrong.

[ashersky]

In fact, vote: UOS.

[Witherweaver]

For what it's worth, I'd have totally played along with WW's mason claim or told my mason buddy to play along if I were the mason.

Really?  Doesn't that just negate any positive utility you have whatsoever as a mason?

This sounds like a forced support of a terrible idea and it makes me think you have a high likelihood of being WW's scumpartner.  It's just so incredibly insane and wrong and UOS is never this wrong.

How?  As I see it, it hides the identity of the other Mason. 

[UmbrageOfSnow]

For what it's worth, I'd have totally played along with WW's mason claim or told my mason buddy to play along if I were the mason.

Really?  Doesn't that just negate any positive utility you have whatsoever as a mason?

This sounds like a forced support of a terrible idea and it makes me think you have a high likelihood of being WW's scumpartner.  It's just so incredibly insane and wrong and UOS is never this wrong.

I wouldn't have played along forever, but it would have been a good way to read WW.  And it is insane coming from scum.

[Hydrad]

I guess trying to get wagons going isn't scummy.  It's that you tried to get so many wagons going that is scummy

Hey I wouldn't have had to try if people would have lynched who I wanted to lynch. 

Also, it's not.  Kind of the opposite, really.   As town anyone could be scum.  As scum I have to worry about who I push, how it looks, etc.   Also I wouldn't want to lynch my partners.

I have the same feeling as WW here. At least for me its super easy to jump around as town!me but scum!me feels way more pressure every vote I put on. I keep thinking it should be easy to just place votes but sometimes it just feels super forced and some people notice that I'm forcing it which makes me want to vote even less!

PPE:3

[Witherweaver]

For what it's worth, I'd have totally played along with WW's mason claim or told my mason buddy to play along if I were the mason.

Really?  Doesn't that just negate any positive utility you have whatsoever as a mason?

This sounds like a forced support of a terrible idea and it makes me think you have a high likelihood of being WW's scumpartner.  It's just so incredibly insane and wrong and UOS is never this wrong.

I wouldn't have played along forever, but it would have been a good way to read WW.  And it is insane coming from scum.

This was my thought exactly.  And, actually, I expected Ash to think this way.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Think about it, Fake mason and real mason are claimed, one real mason remains secret.

Fake mason gets NKed, both real masons claim to protect the real mason who went along with it, and there are 2 ICs.
Real mason dies, other real mason claims, if town, fake mason agrees that he was full of crap.  If scum, you've traded mason for scum which isn't so bad.  It's not great, but when the mason has already outed themselves for some reason it's not a bad outcome.

I would assume anyone fakeclaiming mason is a VT if they aren't doing it under pressure.  Of course now that I've said this, we have to watch out in future games, blah blah blah.

Honestly I kind of want people to try crazy stuff like this on me sometime.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

In an ideal world, town!WW would claim he was lying immediately after Mason!gkrieg's death, protecting the other Mason.

[yuma]

the way I feel about this whole thing with WW is why would scum!WW voluntarily offer up the information about his weird plan to fakeclaim Mason?

I mean, how would that benefit him at all? Scum don't want that sort of scrutiny.

now you could play the WIFOM game here and say, "well obviously he knew that we would say 'why would scum!WW voluntarily ... ... fake claim Mason'" but really... it doesn't work that way.

Because what if people don't say that. scum always have to worry about the "what if" moments and for that reason don't do weird things like this.

lynch scummy behavior not weird behavior. I can't think of a scum narrative WW would have gone with this, unless I am missing some part of this whole suspicion on him for this...

[Awaclus]

Just cause you did it as town before doesn't make it a townie thing to do. I will admit that town will, on occasion do scummy things. But saying "I told you so" is scummy. It certainly isnt' townie. Because benefit does saying "I told you so" accomplish?

What benefit does it accomplish for scum then?

[Awaclus]

My quoting made me kind of misspeak.  The "this" there refers to your insistence that you're town because you're acting how you've acted as town before.

I'm not insisting that I'm town because I'm acting how I've acted as town before, I'm insisting that I'm town because I'm acting how I'm acting as town now. And that it isn't scummy because I've acted like it as town before.

[yuma]

Just cause you did it as town before doesn't make it a townie thing to do. I will admit that town will, on occasion do scummy things. But saying "I told you so" is scummy. It certainly isnt' townie. Because benefit does saying "I told you so" accomplish?

What benefit does it accomplish for scum then?

I think when scum say it they think (and granted town will think the same thing, but wrongly if you ask me) that it will put them in a positive light by giving them credit for being either opposed to an incorrect lynch or in favor of a lynch that didn't occur on a person of unknown alignment. Or in an attempt to distance themselves away from a lynch they were a part of.

Really the only time it is worth saying "I told you so" is when a townie pushes a case on someone that is scum. Like when you flip scum I am definitely saying "I TOLD YOU SO!"

[Witherweaver]

My quoting made me kind of misspeak.  The "this" there refers to your insistence that you're town because you're acting how you've acted as town before.

I'm not insisting that I'm town because I'm acting how I've acted as town before, I'm insisting that I'm town because I'm acting how I'm acting as town now. And that it isn't scummy because I've acted like it as town before.

.. and you've acted like that as scum before. 

[Witherweaver]

Just cause you did it as town before doesn't make it a townie thing to do. I will admit that town will, on occasion do scummy things. But saying "I told you so" is scummy. It certainly isnt' townie. Because benefit does saying "I told you so" accomplish?

What benefit does it accomplish for scum then?

I think when scum say it they think (and granted town will think the same thing, but wrongly if you ask me)

So why is he scum and not just wrong?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm not insisting that I'm town because I'm acting how I've acted as town before... that it isn't scummy because I've acted like it as town before.

[yuma]

Just cause you did it as town before doesn't make it a townie thing to do. I will admit that town will, on occasion do scummy things. But saying "I told you so" is scummy. It certainly isnt' townie. Because benefit does saying "I told you so" accomplish?

What benefit does it accomplish for scum then?

I think when scum say it they think (and granted town will think the same thing, but wrongly if you ask me)

So why is he scum and not just wrong?

ugh... context people!

I am not voting him for saying "I told you so." that is just the first layer. Just that alone isn't worth a vote. And we are only talking about it because Awaclus wanted me to clarify that statement, which I have.

I am voting for him for other reasons attached to that phrase which are specifically and clearly laid out above.

[Awaclus]

.. and you've acted like that as scum before.

But without the town narrative that I have now, which is not necessarily the strongest ever because I didn't post a lot D1, but it's still there.

I'm not insisting that I'm town because I'm acting how I've acted as town before... that it isn't scummy because I've acted like it as town before.

Yes?

[yuma]

to be clear I don't think town would pretend to have an "I told you so" moment when clearly there was no such moment and try and gain towncred from what is clearly a lie and an embellishment.

town might say I told you so, scum might say I told you so. But I don't think town does the above when scum would.

[yuma]

But without the town narrative that I have now, which is not necessarily the strongest ever because I didn't post a lot D1, but it's still there.

I see no town narrative for you. None. You don't get to decide whether or not you have a town narrative. The rest of the town gets to decide that.

[Witherweaver]

"Town narrative" is just a phrase without meaning.

[chairs]

SCUM TO CHUM TIME!

We need to do the ol' rank'em&weep, I think. I'll get a list up as soon as I have a long break at work.

[yuma]

SCUM TO CHUM TIME!

No thanks. I'll maybe put one out later in the day if the day lasts longer, but even then I feel like those sort of things can too often lead to a compromise lynch that everyone is ok with, but no one loves... and too often those end up being mislynches.

[Awaclus]

to be clear I don't think town would pretend to have an "I told you so" moment when clearly there was no such moment and try and gain towncred from what is clearly a lie and an embellishment.

town might say I told you so, scum might say I told you so. But I don't think town does the above when scum would.

Well, there clearly was such a moment even though you like to pretend that it didn't happen for some reason.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

SCUM TO CHUM TIME!

We need to do the ol' rank'em&weep, I think. I'll get a list up as soon as I have a long break at work.

Why?  Specifically why now?

[yuma]

show us where you specifically said "

I told you we should have lynched WW.

"

exactly where did you say that? Where did you even allude to it?

show us the posts. Quote them exactly as you supposedly wrote them that say "I told you we should have lynched WW." If you can find posts that say that, then you will win. But they need to say that, or something like that. None of this reading between the lines crap and "What I meant by that obscure wording was..." No. None of that. Only what the posts actually said and how people would have (not should have according to you) interpreted it.

[Awaclus]

None of this reading between the lines crap and "What I meant by that obscure wording was..." No. None of that.

Why?

[ashersky]

Like, I can see why yuma and others would find Awaclus scummy and vote-worthy.  For sure.  It's there.  Not everyone has to or will agree, but it's defensible.

The defense of WW's inane plan to fakeclaim mason, though?  I see zero merit in the plan and zero merit in defending it.

By WW's logic, fakeclaiming UB is a good plan, since we know that there's always a UB (single M edge case excepted) so if I fakeclaim it as VT, the real UB can just play along and be happy about it.

Except NO.  When you are a PR and someone else claims to be that PR, you always counterclaim because you've just caught scum.  WTF makes anyone think otherwise here?

Gkrieg already told you what would have happened.  Maybe he attacks WW before his partner has to claim.  Maybe not.  And what value did that add to town's chances?  We mislynch him if he's town, sending the day to night, which is where scum thrives.  If VT!WW fakeclaims Mason, it ensures we don't lynch scum.

Let me repeat -- lying town who counterclaims real town ensure we don't lynch scum that day because we lynch the liar.

Ergo, there is no defensible reason for town to do it, so only scum would do it.  Except scum doesn't do it because it's suicide, right?  But scum can claim to have planned to claim and get the perceived value without the risk.

vote: WW.  That's more sensible than his defenders at this point.

I'll pull a yuma and say I'm never switching off WW.

[yuma]

None of this reading between the lines crap and "What I meant by that obscure wording was..." No. None of that.

Why?

Because it is only clear now that you are being questioned about it, whereas before it was not clear...

I feel that you are saying you meant for people to read between the lines now, when under pressure, but never intended it to be that way from the beginning, otherwise why be so cryptic. If you had wanted to tell people to vote for WW you could have. you had your chance. But you didn't. Instead you are back tracking and saying that you did in an obscure and misinterpretable way.

[yuma]

And I get what you are saying ash, my only question is why would WW voluntarily tell us about this "plan" of his. He didn't have to. He wasn't forced into giving it up. He chose to tell us about it. And I see a town!WW being more willing to tell us about this ridiculous idea than a scum!WW knowing that there was probably a good chance people would implode on him for it.

it is a weird plan, and one that I don't agree with, but I don't see mafia deciding it would be a good idea to tell us about it. It would bring too much attention and too much of the spotlight at a time when he (if he were mafia) would want to be concentrating on getting a mislynch before deadline.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

If WW fakeclaimed before Gkrieg was outed it would be horrible.  And I'd lynch him for it.

I'm only talking about the post-Gkrieg's claim when people were asking who the other Mason was.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

If Gkrieg and WW claim masons and there is no 3rd mason claim (because Gkrieg's partner stays silent), why would we lynch either mason?

Masons are special because they know each other are town and because there are exactly a pair of them.

If WW claimed Gkrieg was not a mason, that would be weird, but he's saying he would have said "I am Gkrieg's mason buddy."

That makes it more likely for a VT to die on N1.

[chairs]

SCUM TO CHUM TIME!

We need to do the ol' rank'em&weep, I think. I'll get a list up as soon as I have a long break at work.

Why?  Specifically why now?

I feel like it's a good way to functionally break out of the circlejerk-y feeling this game has developed (at least for me).

I don't even like, want to read posts anymore, because it seems like it's just the same argument being shoved around like dog poop on hot pavement.

I'm not saying the argument isn't valid, or that the arguers are even poor at arguing, I'm just saying that my eyes are starting to glaze over.

YMMV.

[Witherweaver]

Like, I can see why yuma and others would find Awaclus scummy and vote-worthy.  For sure.  It's there.  Not everyone has to or will agree, but it's defensible.

The defense of WW's inane plan to fakeclaim mason, though?  I see zero merit in the plan and zero merit in defending it.

By WW's logic, fakeclaiming UB is a good plan, since we know that there's always a UB (single M edge case excepted) so if I fakeclaim it as VT, the real UB can just play along and be happy about it.

Except NO.  When you are a PR and someone else claims to be that PR, you always counterclaim because you've just caught scum.  WTF makes anyone think otherwise here?

Gkrieg already told you what would have happened.  Maybe he attacks WW before his partner has to claim.  Maybe not.  And what value did that add to town's chances?  We mislynch him if he's town, sending the day to night, which is where scum thrives.  If VT!WW fakeclaims Mason, it ensures we don't lynch scum.

Let me repeat -- lying town who counterclaims real town ensure we don't lynch scum that day because we lynch the liar.

Ergo, there is no defensible reason for town to do it, so only scum would do it.  Except scum doesn't do it because it's suicide, right?  But scum can claim to have planned to claim and get the perceived value without the risk.

vote: WW.  That's more sensible than his defenders at this point.

I'll pull a yuma and say I'm never switching off WW.

There are two Masons.

Interesting though that you think this would occur to me as scum (and that I'd be bold enough to try it). 

[Jimmmmm]

Like, I can see why yuma and others would find Awaclus scummy and vote-worthy.  For sure.  It's there.  Not everyone has to or will agree, but it's defensible.

The defense of WW's inane plan to fakeclaim mason, though?  I see zero merit in the plan and zero merit in defending it.

By WW's logic, fakeclaiming UB is a good plan, since we know that there's always a UB (single M edge case excepted) so if I fakeclaim it as VT, the real UB can just play along and be happy about it.

Except NO.  When you are a PR and someone else claims to be that PR, you always counterclaim because you've just caught scum.  WTF makes anyone think otherwise here?

Gkrieg already told you what would have happened.  Maybe he attacks WW before his partner has to claim.  Maybe not.  And what value did that add to town's chances?  We mislynch him if he's town, sending the day to night, which is where scum thrives.  If VT!WW fakeclaims Mason, it ensures we don't lynch scum.

Let me repeat -- lying town who counterclaims real town ensure we don't lynch scum that day because we lynch the liar.

Ergo, there is no defensible reason for town to do it, so only scum would do it.  Except scum doesn't do it because it's suicide, right?  But scum can claim to have planned to claim and get the perceived value without the risk.

vote: WW.  That's more sensible than his defenders at this point.

I'll pull a yuma and say I'm never switching off WW.

You're points are correct, but how often does that actually make the person scum?

[Jimmmmm]

Like, I can see why yuma and others would find Awaclus scummy and vote-worthy.  For sure.  It's there.  Not everyone has to or will agree, but it's defensible.

The defense of WW's inane plan to fakeclaim mason, though?  I see zero merit in the plan and zero merit in defending it.

By WW's logic, fakeclaiming UB is a good plan, since we know that there's always a UB (single M edge case excepted) so if I fakeclaim it as VT, the real UB can just play along and be happy about it.

Except NO.  When you are a PR and someone else claims to be that PR, you always counterclaim because you've just caught scum.  WTF makes anyone think otherwise here?

Gkrieg already told you what would have happened.  Maybe he attacks WW before his partner has to claim.  Maybe not.  And what value did that add to town's chances?  We mislynch him if he's town, sending the day to night, which is where scum thrives.  If VT!WW fakeclaims Mason, it ensures we don't lynch scum.

Let me repeat -- lying town who counterclaims real town ensure we don't lynch scum that day because we lynch the liar.

Ergo, there is no defensible reason for town to do it, so only scum would do it.  Except scum doesn't do it because it's suicide, right?  But scum can claim to have planned to claim and get the perceived value without the risk.

vote: WW.  That's more sensible than his defenders at this point.

I'll pull a yuma and say I'm never switching off WW.

You're points are correct, but how often does that actually make the person scum?

Your*

[yuma]

Frpm what I can see this is the first instance of WW talking about this plan:

I can't seem to find any reasons for the votes on ww. Have any been given?

No reasonable ones.

Chairs vote does not seem scummy; only main reason for scum doing it is to appear active.  I'm not sure if he expected people to actually follow him, though Ash did imply I was scummy before Chairs voted.

Ash's argument is that I'm not serious and lacking content.  The "jokey WW is scum WW" type of argument is the most often argument against town!me.   It tends to be not that often scum driven, as I recall.  Ash's is the only real argument that's been made against me.

Gkrieg is just messing with my plans.

Yuma's vote on me I don't like.  Though maybe it's scummy be deafult, because I think the other three on my wagon are town (well, Chairs is null), and it seems that there would be a scum on.

He was responding to Jimmmm asking for an explanation for the votes on him and he says about gkrieg that he was messing with his plans.

If WW is mafia, he already has four votes on him, why start down this road and say that he was going to fake claim mason. Why? What purpose would that serve him as mafia except to bring unwanted attention. He could have said something really bland about gkrieg's vote like "quasi-IC, so I don't blame him for his vote, but don't agree with it" or something along those lines.

But instead he started down this really weird road. Which I agree was weird and ill thought out. But not really scummy.

[ashersky]

I'm only talking about the post-Gkrieg's claim when people were asking who the other Mason was.

Are you talking about it as a defensive measure?  Like, Shieldmaiden I'll-take-the-hit style?

Man, it's still terrible.  If you are trying to build a town narrative for why he would do it, I guess this fits...like, "I want to ensure the second mason stays hidden so I'll lie for him!"

The best defense possible then is Meat Loaf.  And that's not a great defense.

[ashersky]

If WW is mafia, he already has four votes on him, why start down this road and say that he was going to fake claim mason. Why? What purpose would that serve him as mafia except to bring unwanted attention. He could have said something really bland about gkrieg's vote like "quasi-IC, so I don't blame him for his vote, but don't agree with it" or something along those lines.

But instead he started down this really weird road. Which I agree was weird and ill thought out. But not really scummy.

I can think of a few...he's already in trouble, so go for the hail mary.  He's thinking it'll buy him town cred because why would scum say that?  He's hoping he can get a snap vote out of the other mason without the claim.

[ashersky]

You're points are correct, but how often does that actually make the person scum?

How often have you said my points are correct?

[ashersky]

Like, I can see why yuma and others would find Awaclus scummy and vote-worthy.  For sure.  It's there.  Not everyone has to or will agree, but it's defensible.

The defense of WW's inane plan to fakeclaim mason, though?  I see zero merit in the plan and zero merit in defending it.

By WW's logic, fakeclaiming UB is a good plan, since we know that there's always a UB (single M edge case excepted) so if I fakeclaim it as VT, the real UB can just play along and be happy about it.

Except NO.  When you are a PR and someone else claims to be that PR, you always counterclaim because you've just caught scum.  WTF makes anyone think otherwise here?

Gkrieg already told you what would have happened.  Maybe he attacks WW before his partner has to claim.  Maybe not.  And what value did that add to town's chances?  We mislynch him if he's town, sending the day to night, which is where scum thrives.  If VT!WW fakeclaims Mason, it ensures we don't lynch scum.

Let me repeat -- lying town who counterclaims real town ensure we don't lynch scum that day because we lynch the liar.

Ergo, there is no defensible reason for town to do it, so only scum would do it.  Except scum doesn't do it because it's suicide, right?  But scum can claim to have planned to claim and get the perceived value without the risk.

vote: WW.  That's more sensible than his defenders at this point.

I'll pull a yuma and say I'm never switching off WW.

There are two Masons.

Interesting though that you think this would occur to me as scum (and that I'd be bold enough to try it).

Unless there are three masons.

[ashersky]

Interesting though that you think this would occur to me as scum (and that I'd be bold enough to try it).

In rank order of players in this game who are willing to take interesting and daring scum risks:

PPS > WW > faust > ashersky > TA >>>>>>>>>>>>>> yuma >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else.

[yuma]

I can think of a few...he's already in trouble, so go for the hail mary.  He's thinking it'll buy him town cred because why would scum say that?  He's hoping he can get a snap vote out of the other mason without the claim.

Hail mary... maybe if he had a few more votes on him. He was at 4 at this point and as others have stated his wagon had stalled. So i don't think it was a last gasp effort.

Buying town cred? I already said this, but this is WIFOM fallacy. Because to do that you have to assume that town will not find you scummy for it first and that is a major risk that I think most scum wouldn't want to incur.

And I am sorry I don't know what you mean by the third...

[yuma]

Interesting though that you think this would occur to me as scum (and that I'd be bold enough to try it).

In rank order of players in this game who are willing to take interesting and daring scum risks:

PPS > WW > faust > ashersky > TA >>>>>>>>>>>>>> yuma >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else.

I don't know whether to be offended or flattered... but this seems surprising to me, has WW really changed that much in the last year. Previously I would have put him in the "everyone else" category.

[ashersky]

I can think of a few...he's already in trouble, so go for the hail mary.  He's thinking it'll buy him town cred because why would scum say that?  He's hoping he can get a snap vote out of the other mason without the claim.

Hail mary... maybe if he had a few more votes on him. He was at 4 at this point and as others have stated his wagon had stalled. So i don't think it was a last gasp effort.

Buying town cred? I already said this, but this is WIFOM fallacy. Because to do that you have to assume that town will not find you scummy for it first and that is a major risk that I think most scum wouldn't want to incur.

And I am sorry I don't know what you mean by the third...

Well, we don't know how much pressure he was actually feeling.  As for the WIFOM thing...it worked, didn't it?  I mean, he has multiple players arguing for his side without him trying or asking.  That's exactly what I mean by towncred (not lynched, players defending him).

The third meant that he was trying to force a readable reaction from the hidden mason in the string of posts that would follow his fake claim (or claim to fake claim).  It's like when you say "cop" and see if anyone twitches uncomfortable or subconsciously moves their eyes up and left.

[Witherweaver]

Also I hadn't completely decided to do it; it was something that occurred to me since the other Mason didn't claim and I didn't know if it would be good or not.  The idea of doing something kind of crazy and out there was appealing.  Gkrieg saying he suspected me made it look less possible, and him voting me kind of ruined it.  (I briefly thought about salvaging with the D1 thing that they tried in Buffy where a Mason started a case against another to get reactions and examine the fallout, but there would be even a smaller chance that Gkrieg would go along with it.)

It's not just that it hides the other Mason's identity, it's also a "secret message" to the Masons that I'm town.  Of course it only works if the Masons see it as I was, but it was still interesting to me.

[ashersky]

Interesting though that you think this would occur to me as scum (and that I'd be bold enough to try it).

In rank order of players in this game who are willing to take interesting and daring scum risks:

PPS > WW > faust > ashersky > TA >>>>>>>>>>>>>> yuma >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else.

I don't know whether to be offended or flattered... but this seems surprising to me, has WW really changed that much in the last year. Previously I would have put him in the "everyone else" category.

I think you could pull off the daring risks, but I don't think you want to do them now.  If it was you and me as partners, then maybe, but I think you play it safe your first game back.

WW has changed a lot over the last year.  Read his sig.

[Awaclus]

Because it is only clear now that you are being questioned about it, whereas before it was not clear...

I feel that you are saying you meant for people to read between the lines now, when under pressure, but never intended it to be that way from the beginning, otherwise why be so cryptic. If you had wanted to tell people to vote for WW you could have. you had your chance. But you didn't. Instead you are back tracking and saying that you did in an obscure and misinterpretable way.

It was not intended to be cryptic. I don't really see how it's not obvious that I wanted to lynch WW yesterday. I also don't see what would be the benefit of typing up posts arbitrarily for no reason and then coming up with a fake narrative for them later.

[ashersky]

Alright, gotta go for the night -- it's late here.  Back in the morning.

[Witherweaver]

If WW is mafia, he already has four votes on him, why start down this road and say that he was going to fake claim mason. Why? What purpose would that serve him as mafia except to bring unwanted attention. He could have said something really bland about gkrieg's vote like "quasi-IC, so I don't blame him for his vote, but don't agree with it" or something along those lines.

But instead he started down this really weird road. Which I agree was weird and ill thought out. But not really scummy.

I can think of a few...he's already in trouble, so go for the hail mary.  He's thinking it'll buy him town cred because why would scum say that?  He's hoping he can get a snap vote out of the other mason without the claim.

But like I said, I thought about the idea long before, and I intentionally left crumbs.  So I would have had to foresee that kind of scenario.

[yuma]

Because it is only clear now that you are being questioned about it, whereas before it was not clear...

I feel that you are saying you meant for people to read between the lines now, when under pressure, but never intended it to be that way from the beginning, otherwise why be so cryptic. If you had wanted to tell people to vote for WW you could have. you had your chance. But you didn't. Instead you are back tracking and saying that you did in an obscure and misinterpretable way.

It was not intended to be cryptic. I don't really see how it's not obvious that I wanted to lynch WW yesterday.

This was your vote for him:

Vote: Witherweaver

He's certainly a better lynch than me.

yeah... you really, really, really wanted him dead. I mean... your argument. SO GOOD! Who could disagree with a case like that. And you were SO CONVINCING! Wow! just wow.

[Witherweaver]

Because it is only clear now that you are being questioned about it, whereas before it was not clear...

I feel that you are saying you meant for people to read between the lines now, when under pressure, but never intended it to be that way from the beginning, otherwise why be so cryptic. If you had wanted to tell people to vote for WW you could have. you had your chance. But you didn't. Instead you are back tracking and saying that you did in an obscure and misinterpretable way.

It was not intended to be cryptic. I don't really see how it's not obvious that I wanted to lynch WW yesterday. I also don't see what would be the benefit of typing up posts arbitrarily for no reason and then coming up with a fake narrative for them later.

It's not complicated;  you voted me with "Well, WW is a better lynch than I am" when you were a dominant wagon and I was an alternate.  That indicates to people that your scum read on me is not strong and oh fuck it why do I even bother talking this is just going to get a pointless response to lead to more pointlessness.

Why doesn't the forum have ignore user functionality?

[yuma]

and oh fuck it why do I even bother talking this is just going to get a pointless response to lead to more pointlessness.

+1

[Awaclus]

This was your vote for him:

Vote: Witherweaver

He's certainly a better lynch than me.

yeah... you really, really, really wanted him dead. I mean... your argument. SO GOOD! Who could disagree with a case like that. And you were SO CONVINCING! Wow! just wow.

My read on him changed later.

[yuma]

thanks for telling us. Or was I suppose to read it somewhere between the lines...?

[Witherweaver]

Vote: TA

Let's see if this guy is around.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

SCUM TO CHUM TIME!

We need to do the ol' rank'em&weep, I think. I'll get a list up as soon as I have a long break at work.

Why?  Specifically why now?

I feel like it's a good way to functionally break out of the circlejerk-y feeling this game has developed (at least for me).

I don't even like, want to read posts anymore, because it seems like it's just the same argument being shoved around like dog poop on hot pavement.

I'm not saying the argument isn't valid, or that the arguers are even poor at arguing, I'm just saying that my eyes are starting to glaze over.

YMMV.

This is mostly on Awaclus, Ash, and Yuma IMO.  There's scum in there.

Anyway, it feels to me like a somewhat productive circlejerk, and I'm worried readslists will lead to us all just posting them and then sitting around and not saying anything else.  Most of us have a fair amount of reads out there, those lists are mostly good when no one is willing to put out anything I think.

[yuma]

and it is funny that I am the one going back and doing the digging and finding the posts. Why aren't you doing the digging and bringing these super clear posts to light if you are so convinced that they were so clear and obvious?

[yuma]

sorry, I'll stop posting for a while. But bored at work... nothing else to do...

[Awaclus]

thanks for telling us. Or was I suppose to read it somewhere between the lines...?

You were supposed to realize it when I started arguing against him.

[Awaclus]

and it is funny that I am the one going back and doing the digging and finding the posts. Why aren't you doing the digging and bringing these super clear posts to light if you are so convinced that they were so clear and obvious?

Because you're already doing it so there's no point in me doing it again.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Awaclus, can you point to something you've done in this game that you don't believe you would ever do as scum?

Yeah, I know, now that you say you'd never do it as scum you'd obviously want to do it as scum, whatever.  Ignore that.  Look back at your posts and point out the one with the strongest not-scum narrative.

[Witherweaver]

Interesting though that you think this would occur to me as scum (and that I'd be bold enough to try it).

In rank order of players in this game who are willing to take interesting and daring scum risks:

PPS > WW > faust > ashersky > TA >>>>>>>>>>>>>> yuma >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else.

I'm not sure what I've done to rank that high, though I wish I took more interesting and daring risks as scum.  Faust definitely ranks higher than I do.  I guess I take risks with bussing, but I don't know with what else.  Scum always feels like there is more on the line than Town does; it's harder to feel free.

[Twistedarcher]

This afternoon's posts seem to be going in circles. I'm not sure that everyone involved is town but I'd lead to the majority being town.

I definitely agree with the point of view on WW that he posts without concrete opinions D1, but he does this regardless of alignment.

Awaclus' reasoning on why he's town seems to basically boil down to "I'm town because I'm town". It's a useless defense because both town and scum want to act like scum.

Out of all the people posting recently I'd rather lynch Ash. Yuma is still town but not as towny as yesterday, now that I know PPS flipped town I'm paranoid he's buddying me. Still not lynching there but not an ironclad read anymore.

Hydrad still seems towny, Chairs too. No clue on UoS. Awaclus and WW are scummy but I always read them scummy and I need to work more to separate their gameplay from meta in this game.

Would lynch Jimmmm for lurking. Is he the only lurker? I don't think anyone else has been more inactive than usual.

[Twistedarcher]

Vote: TA

Let's see if this guy is around.

I am, just lost motivation after D1 a bit. I was sure and lost a lot of the wind in my sails after the flip.

[Jimmmmm]

Vote: TA

Let's see if this guy is around.

I am, just lost motivation after D1 a bit. I was sure and lost a lot of the wind in my sails after the flip.

This sounds scummy.

[Twistedarcher]

Going to re-read for more concrete opinions on WW and Awaclus. I need something better than "their metas confuse me" and I will work to come up with a better viewpoint than that.

[Twistedarcher]

Vote: TA

Let's see if this guy is around.

I am, just lost motivation after D1 a bit. I was sure and lost a lot of the wind in my sails after the flip.

This sounds scummy.

We always say that stuff like this is scummy, and post-flip reactions, but are they actually scummy, or are they just stereotypical things that don't have any relation to alignment?

[Twistedarcher]

Vote: TA

Let's see if this guy is around.

I am, just lost motivation after D1 a bit. I was sure and lost a lot of the wind in my sails after the flip.

This sounds scummy.

Like seriously. Put yourself in my shoes.

You're town, and you're SURE on someone D1, and they flip and you were completely wrong. Wouldn't you be frustrated and demotivated and want to take a step back?

[Jimmmmm]

You're town, and you're SURE on someone D1

That's the problem.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: TA

Let's see if this guy is around.

I am, just lost motivation after D1 a bit. I was sure and lost a lot of the wind in my sails after the flip.

This sounds scummy.

I agree.

[Jimmmmm]

Vote: TA

Let's see if this guy is around.

I am, just lost motivation after D1 a bit. I was sure and lost a lot of the wind in my sails after the flip.

This sounds scummy.

We always say that stuff like this is scummy, and post-flip reactions, but are they actually scummy, or are they just stereotypical things that don't have any relation to alignment?

Well either you're telling the truth or it's fabricated. Either way, you're painting a picture of yourself being Town, which is what scum wants to do. And how often is Town certain of a flip on Day 1?

[yuma]

Well either you're telling the truth or it's fabricated. Either way, you're painting a picture of yourself being Town, which is what scum wants to do.

I agree with this. And if I may interrupt is a focal point of my view about Awaclus above . But the difference is the context. TA comes in and sees that WW had voted for him saying "let's see if he is around." Later TA does come back and in response he explains. It might be true, it might not be true. We can't really know without seeing a flip.  Whereas above I feel that Awaclus used a statement that could be scummy or could be townie to paint a picture of himself being town that is verifiably not true.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 2.2

Awaclus (3): UmbrageOfSnow, yuma, chairs
Witherweaver (3): gkrieg13, Awaclus, ashersky
Twistedarcher (2): Hydrad, Witherweaver

Not Voting (2): Twistedarcher, Jimmmmm

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends at Oct 02, 03 PM forum time. That is in 7 days and 19+ hours.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Based on the end of Shakespeare, I need to rethink some stuff.

Ash, does that game have much to do with your not liking the Awaclus lynch?

[Awaclus]

Awaclus, can you point to something you've done in this game that you don't believe you would ever do as scum?

Yeah, I know, now that you say you'd never do it as scum you'd obviously want to do it as scum, whatever.  Ignore that.  Look back at your posts and point out the one with the strongest not-scum narrative.

Well, I haven't posted a lot because I didn't pay a lot of attention to this game, so there's very little to point out, but that itself is something that I don't think I would ever do as scum. I think it's also pretty clear now why the Shakespeare mafia took precedence for me — I was scum there, so it was the more interesting game.

[Witherweaver]

Based on the end of Shakespeare, I need to rethink some stuff.

Ash, does that game have much to do with your not liking the Awaclus lynch?

What's different for you?

[gkrieg13]

Based on the end of Shakespeare, I need to rethink some stuff.

Ash, does that game have much to do with your not liking the Awaclus lynch?

Awaclus seems very different that game to this game.  He seemed a lot more involved there.

[yuma]

Having been scum in two different games at the same time before I wouldn't be surprised to see a player be more active in one game and less active in the other. I mildly followed Shakespeare. Who was Awaclus partner in that game?

[yuma]

I don't know why i ask questions when i can just look them up, but his partner was Ghacob, who was modkilled for inactivity. Yeah, if I am scum with a lurker for a partner I am going to be posting way more than usual over in that game (maybe to the extent of posting less over here, especially if my partners have high posting volume)

Unless there is more to it than the amount of posting I don't think it changes anything for me.

[Witherweaver]

They weren't partners, really;  separate scum teams.

[Witherweaver]

At least that's how it looks.

[yuma]

They weren't partners, really;  separate scum teams.

Oh. well that might be a different story then...

[ashersky]

Yes, two separate single-scum teams.

And yes, that game does play into my slight hesitation on Awaclus.

[yuma]

well I think my point still stands. If I am scum all by my lonesome I am going to post more just as a fact to try and be more in control of the game compared to a game where I had two other scum mates who were there with me.

I mean basically it would be like comparing a SK to a Mafia. There will be some similarities, but they are vastly different approaches.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Based on the end of Shakespeare, I need to rethink some stuff.

Ash, does that game have much to do with your not liking the Awaclus lynch?

What's different for you?

I was sure he was town there and scum here.  I am now 100% sure my Awaclus-reads need recalibration.

Doesn't give me a town read on him, but gives me a giant pile of self-doubt.

@Awaclus: You do get that your deliberate unhelpfulness makes the town narrative thing so weak that everyone not reading your mind is reduced to lynching or not lynching you based on meat, right?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm glad I can't fix that typo.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

They weren't partners, really;  separate scum teams.

Oh. well that might be a different story then...

Well solo-scum late game vs. team-scum early game would certainly be a reason to give the first one more focus.

But his early game play there felt different than here too.

[Awaclus]

@Awaclus: You do get that your deliberate unhelpfulness makes the town narrative thing so weak that everyone not reading your mind is reduced to lynching or not lynching you based on meat, right?

I'm not sure what you meat, but I'm not deliberately unhelpful, I just don't explain my reads. I don't think it makes it at all more difficult to see the town narrative; I don't really pay a lot of attention to others' explanations either when I'm scumhunting, and I still do have reads on people. What makes my town narrative weak here is that I wasn't posting a ton yesterday, but I think that's going to change.

[yuma]

I'm not deliberately unhelpful, I just don't explain my reads.

that IS deliberately unhelpful.

Or to say it differently... it would help ME (and others I would imagine) to get a better read on you if you did explain your reads. By not explaining your reads you are not helping us get a good read on you. You might have other reasons for not posting reads (I will probably say that they aren't very good, but who knows, maybe I am wrong), but again, you don't get to decide if you are being helpful or not. We, the rest of the players, get to decide that.

But honestly, you have been scummy enough for other reasons that your lack of reads has become a pretty small part of my vote on you.

[Awaclus]

Or to say it differently... it would help ME (and others I would imagine) to get a better read on you if you did explain your reads. By not explaining your reads you are not helping us get a good read on you. You might have other reasons for not posting reads (I will probably say that they aren't very good, but who knows, maybe I am wrong), but again, you don't get to decide if you are being helpful or not. We, the rest of the players, get to decide that. [/url]

It certainly would not help any of you to get a better read on me. If your fake read is believable, providing a believable fake explanation for it requires literally nothing more than hitting keys on your keyboard and clicking the Post button.

But honestly, you have been scummy enough for other reasons that your lack of reads has become a pretty small part of my vote on you.
[/quote]

I don't have a lack of reads.

[Awaclus]

EDIT: Oops, wrong tag.

Or to say it differently... it would help ME (and others I would imagine) to get a better read on you if you did explain your reads. By not explaining your reads you are not helping us get a good read on you. You might have other reasons for not posting reads (I will probably say that they aren't very good, but who knows, maybe I am wrong), but again, you don't get to decide if you are being helpful or not. We, the rest of the players, get to decide that.

It certainly would not help any of you to get a better read on me. If your fake read is believable, providing a believable fake explanation for it requires literally nothing more than hitting keys on your keyboard and clicking the Post button.

But honestly, you have been scummy enough for other reasons that your lack of reads has become a pretty small part of my vote on you.

I don't have a lack of reads.

[yuma]

and oh fuck it why do I even bother talking this is just going to get a pointless response to lead to more pointlessness.

[Witherweaver]

I'm tired of this.

[Witherweaver]

Let's lynch literally anyone.

[Witherweaver]

Looks like I'm the leading wagon.

Vote: Witherweaver

[Twistedarcher]

vote: awaclus

[gkrieg13]

Looks like I'm the leading wagon.

Vote: Witherweaver

Finally a good vote from you

[Witherweaver]

Looks like I'm the leading wagon.

Vote: Witherweaver

Finally a good vote from you

Are you saying you're scum?

[gkrieg13]

Looks like I'm the leading wagon.

Vote: Witherweaver

Finally a good vote from you

Are you saying you're scum?

?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So Jimmmmmmmmm, who would you rather put at L-1?

[Witherweaver]

Oh I didn't realize Awaclus had as many votes as I did.

That would be even better because he has a chance of being scum.

Either way, as long as I don't have to read any more from him.

Vote: Awaclus

[yuma]

Looks like I'm the leading wagon.

Vote: Witherweaver

Ugh... now I have to decide between voting you and committing to my promise..

can I have two votes?

PPE:

Good job unvoting yourself and good job voting for awaclus

[Twistedarcher]

Since Awaclus is all about town and scum narratives, let's see him explain the town narrative on refusing to compromise a playstyle when other players have said it inhibits their ability to fully scumhunt. The stubborness is leading us to talk about the playstyle rather than actually scumhunting, and I can't see a good pro-town reason for this.

Town narrative vs. scum narrative is all about pro-town actions, right? So we should be voting Awaclus for not taking pro-town actions?

[yuma]

hammer him Jimmmmm!

this game became kinda fun again!

[yuma]

hammer him Jimmmmm!

this game became kinda fun again!

but really, consider voting for him, and state that you are willing to hammer (if you are) so he at least has a chance to claim and say stuff...

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 2.3

Awaclus (5): UmbrageOfSnow, yuma, chairs, Twistedarcher, Witherweaver {L-1}
Witherweaver (3): gkrieg13, Awaclus, ashersky
Twistedarcher (1): Hydrad

Not Voting (1): Jimmmmm

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends at Oct 02, 03 PM forum time. That is in 6 days and 22+ hours.

[Witherweaver]

Honestly I'm starting to believe Awaclus is town here.

Not unvoting him though. 

[Witherweaver]

I don't care what he claims, just hammer him.

[silverspawn]

can I have two votes?

nope

[Awaclus]

Since Awaclus is all about town and scum narratives, let's see him explain the town narrative on refusing to compromise a playstyle when other players have said it inhibits their ability to fully scumhunt. The stubborness is leading us to talk about the playstyle rather than actually scumhunting, and I can't see a good pro-town reason for this.

The most that compromising my playstyle would accomplish is that you would think you have better reads on me than you actually did. That's not pro-town.

[Twistedarcher]

Since Awaclus is all about town and scum narratives, let's see him explain the town narrative on refusing to compromise a playstyle when other players have said it inhibits their ability to fully scumhunt. The stubborness is leading us to talk about the playstyle rather than actually scumhunting, and I can't see a good pro-town reason for this.

The most that compromising my playstyle would accomplish is that you would think you have better reads on me than you actually did. That's not pro-town.

Well see, stuff like this is going to make me lynch you, so if you're town, there's only upside?

[Awaclus]

Well see, stuff like this is going to make me lynch you, so if you're town, there's only upside?

I don't like playing the game with the assumption that other townies are playing it suboptimally.

[ashersky]

Looks like I'm the leading wagon.

Vote: Witherweaver

Yuma?

[Twistedarcher]

and oh fuck it why do I even bother talking this is just going to get a pointless response to lead to more pointlessness.

+1

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Well see, stuff like this is going to make me lynch you, so if you're town, there's only upside?

I don't like playing the game with the assumption that other townies are playing it suboptimally.

Now that is a bad assumption.  There is certainly more suboptimal play than optimal.  (And in the most fun games, what's optimal isn't even clear.)

Anyway, you can't expect town to be psychic if you are town and only do anti-town things.  If we assume you are trying to play optimally to your wincon, we need to lynch you.

[Witherweaver]

This is still all pointless talk.

Ash if you can get me to L-1 I'll hammer myself.

Or hammer Awaclus and we can play.

[ashersky]

We have a week.

I am even more comfortable with my WW vote. Dude never self-votes.  He's gushing and pushing for a quick lynch.  It's all do incredibly strange.

TA, another fan favorite scum read, is pushing the lynch.

The whole wagon looks crappy.  You have UOS who admits he doesn't trust his own reads of Awa, Yuma who personally hates Awa, chairs the lurker, TA the scum read, and WW the obv!scum.

I guess the upside is you can't all be scum.

[ashersky]

What's the rush?  I know that as scum, I love short days because it reduces content and opportunity to screw up.

[Twistedarcher]

There's no pro-town narrative for what Awaclus is doing. There is a pro-scum narrative. There's also a "I don't care to win this game, I'm going to prove a point" narrative. I have no clue how to differentiate between #2 and #3, but this line of thought is actually exhausting and draining, and I don't want to have to jump through hoops to try to play what's supposed to be a fun game.

[ashersky]

This is still all pointless talk.

Ash if you can get me to L-1 I'll hammer myself.

Or hammer Awaclus and we can play.

You are two votes away, and Yuma owes you a vote.  Theoretically, it's possible you could reach L-1.

Are you faking a frustrated town thing right now?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm okay with
Vote: WW

[yuma]

Looks like I'm the leading wagon.

Vote: Witherweaver

Yuma?

he unvoted before I could vote him... sad face...

[yuma]

Yuma who personally hates Awa

I don't know why you keep diminishing my points on awaclus. There is certainly a whole lot more than my dislike of his playstyle. That isn't a reason to vote someone, but everything else I have laid out, certainly is. But you keep diminishing it to the least important part.

What's up with that?

[ashersky]

There's no pro-town narrative for what Awaclus is doing. There is a pro-scum narrative. There's also a "I don't care to win this game, I'm going to prove a point" narrative. I have no clue how to differentiate between #2 and #3, but this line of thought is actually exhausting and draining, and I don't want to have to jump through hoops to try to play what's supposed to be a fun game.

As the guy who is always the one ruining everyone else's fun, I guess I have some sympathy for the guy.  You all treat me like this often.  Especially Voltaire and Faust.  It sucks and doesn't feel good, and so maybe I understand why Awaclus is like "fuck you all I will not change just to spite you" and just plans to say I told you so after the game.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Yuma who personally hates Awa

I don't know why you keep diminishing my points on awaclus. There is certainly a whole lot more than my dislike of his playstyle. That isn't a reason to vote someone, but everything else I have laid out, certainly is. But you keep diminishing it to the least important part.

What's up with that?

I was thinking this a lot toward the end of yesterday as well.

[ashersky]

Yuma who personally hates Awa

I don't know why you keep diminishing my points on awaclus. There is certainly a whole lot more than my dislike of his playstyle. That isn't a reason to vote someone, but everything else I have laid out, certainly is. But you keep diminishing it to the least important part.

What's up with that?

It is the part that comes through loud and clear.  Whether you want it to or not, your case is tainted with what seems to me like a serious distaste for Awaclus the player.

[Twistedarcher]

There's no pro-town narrative for what Awaclus is doing. There is a pro-scum narrative. There's also a "I don't care to win this game, I'm going to prove a point" narrative. I have no clue how to differentiate between #2 and #3, but this line of thought is actually exhausting and draining, and I don't want to have to jump through hoops to try to play what's supposed to be a fun game.

As the guy who is always the one ruining everyone else's fun, I guess I have some sympathy for the guy.  You all treat me like this often.  Especially Voltaire and Faust.  It sucks and doesn't feel good, and so maybe I understand why Awaclus is like "fuck you all I will not change just to spite you" and just plans to say I told you so after the game.

And if he's like that, and I mistake it for pro-scum behavior, why is that my fault and not his?

[Witherweaver]

I have trouble finding Ash's comments sincere, and I'm not sure why he'd do it as town.  Though, town!Ash going after me when I'm town is kind of a thing.

I've been operating under the assumption that Ash is the other Mason, and operating under the assumption that Gkrieg is town.  We may want to consider the possibility that they're scum.  I suppose each person that may have a PR can examine the setup in their own light to see how likely it is, though we haven't gotten a lot of information.  I would have liked to have done the massclaiming thing on day 1.  I'd still support it.

PPE: like 10

[yuma]

It is the part that comes through loud and clear.  Whether you want it to or not, your case is tainted with what seems to me like a serious distaste for Awaclus the player.

so is it my job to remove the taint or is it your job to see through it? Probably both?

But I am doing my part to remove the taint by explaining the full reasoning each time you fail to see through it. It is time for you to do your part...

[Twistedarcher]

I'd be pro-massclaim

[ashersky]

I just modded scum!awaclus through the most painful game of my life.  All kinds of disappointment.  But I got a very good look into scum!Awaclus.

He's different here.

Not the annoying stuff -- that's omnipresent.  But other stuff.

[Witherweaver]

Oh here you go Yuma

Vote: Witherweaver

[yuma]

Let's mass claim!

[ashersky]

It is the part that comes through loud and clear.  Whether you want it to or not, your case is tainted with what seems to me like a serious distaste for Awaclus the player.

so is it my job to remove the taint or is it your job to see through it? Probably both?

But I am doing my part to remove the taint by explaining the full reasoning each time you fail to see through it. It is time for you to do your part...

You have a point.  But my point of view comes from a completely different place.  I know very recent scum!Awaclus.

[yuma]

i am a VT

vote: ww

no vote: awaclus

I have made two committments in my life and now I have to break one of them?

vote: wacitherus

[Twistedarcher]

I just modded scum!awaclus through the most painful game of my life.  All kinds of disappointment.  But I got a very good look into scum!Awaclus.

He's different here.

Not the annoying stuff -- that's omnipresent.  But other stuff.

OK I've seen this like 3 times this thread now. That's he's different from Shakespeare. Mind going into details?

[ashersky]

I have trouble finding Ash's comments sincere, and I'm not sure why he'd do it as town.  Though, town!Ash going after me when I'm town is kind of a thing.

I've been operating under the assumption that Ash is the other Mason, and operating under the assumption that Gkrieg is town.  We may want to consider the possibility that they're scum.  I suppose each person that may have a PR can examine the setup in their own light to see how likely it is, though we haven't gotten a lot of information.  I would have liked to have done the massclaiming thing on day 1.  I'd still support it.

PPE: like 10

OMGUS much?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Mass claiming is terrible.

Is anyone in favor of it for a reason other than boredom?

[Witherweaver]

Pretty sure that counts as the hammer.

I'm VT.  Awaclus may be town here.  Everything I said in way of reads was honest, for whatever it's worth when you reread.

[Witherweaver]

I have trouble finding Ash's comments sincere, and I'm not sure why he'd do it as town.  Though, town!Ash going after me when I'm town is kind of a thing.

I've been operating under the assumption that Ash is the other Mason, and operating under the assumption that Gkrieg is town.  We may want to consider the possibility that they're scum.  I suppose each person that may have a PR can examine the setup in their own light to see how likely it is, though we haven't gotten a lot of information.  I would have liked to have done the massclaiming thing on day 1.  I'd still support it.

PPE: like 10

OMGUS much?

Your position doesn't make sense so it's hard to consider it sincere.

[yuma]

Mass claiming is terrible.

Is anyone in favor of it for a reason other than boredom?

Everything I said before still applies... but boredom is a perfectly legitimate reason... as is the frustration this game has developed of late... anything to break up that.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Did Yuma just hammer?

Also, I am not claiming unless, after looking at other claims, I believe my claim would catch scum in a lie, or I'm about to be lynched.

Mass claiming is terrible.

[Witherweaver]

I should be hammered.

[ashersky]

I just modded scum!awaclus through the most painful game of my life.  All kinds of disappointment.  But I got a very good look into scum!Awaclus.

He's different here.

Not the annoying stuff -- that's omnipresent.  But other stuff.

OK I've seen this like 3 times this thread now. That's he's different from Shakespeare. Mind going into details?

I don't mind, but I don't have time right this minute.  Probably Monday.

Generally, I can say Awaclus was (to me) less abrasive and generally less noticeable early in the game.  To me, he felt very timid at first.  When it got later in the game, he took opportunities to paint some pictures of other players that helped his cause (especially QS).  His fake claim was terrible, too.

I'd be up for making Awaclus claim, actually.

[Twistedarcher]

Mass claiming is terrible.

Is anyone in favor of it for a reason other than boredom?

I'd like the other mason to claim. If we're playing with 2x goon, it's likely the mason claim is fake. We don't have to massclaim but I would definitely like the other mason to claim today.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

We really need to get this frustration and apathy under control, I'm not sure what caused it, but it seems like a real problem lately.

Playing poorly won't fix it.

[ashersky]

Yuma was hammer -- WW at 3, then UOD, WW, Yuma.

[Twistedarcher]

Yeah WW was lynched. Uos was 4, WW was 5, Yuma was 6.

[Witherweaver]

We really need to get this frustration and apathy under control, I'm not sure what caused it, but it seems like a real problem lately.

Playing poorly won't fix it.

I think it's pretty obvious what caused it.

[Witherweaver]

and oh fuck it why do I even bother talking this is just going to get a pointless response to lead to more pointlessness.

[Twistedarcher]

Now was Yuma hammer a mistake, or a scum hammer masked as a mistake?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Mass claiming is terrible.

Is anyone in favor of it for a reason other than boredom?

I'd like the other mason to claim. If we're playing with 2x goon, it's likely the mason claim is fake. We don't have to massclaim but I would definitely like the other mason to claim today.

As I laid out before, other mason claiming is bad until we get much later into the game, or to prevent their own lynch.

Also, claiming in twilight is ridiculous.

[Witherweaver]

Well Yuma is (was?) my top scum read, for what it's worth.

[Twistedarcher]

Mass claiming is terrible.

Is anyone in favor of it for a reason other than boredom?

I'd like the other mason to claim. If we're playing with 2x goon, it's likely the mason claim is fake. We don't have to massclaim but I would definitely like the other mason to claim today.

As I laid out before, other mason claiming is bad until we get much later into the game, or to prevent their own lynch.

Also, claiming in twilight is ridiculous.

Well yes, but I didn't know we were in twilight. Obviously don't claim in twilight.

[Twistedarcher]

Mass claiming is terrible.

Is anyone in favor of it for a reason other than boredom?

I'd like the other mason to claim. If we're playing with 2x goon, it's likely the mason claim is fake. We don't have to massclaim but I would definitely like the other mason to claim today.

As I laid out before, other mason claiming is bad until we get much later into the game, or to prevent their own lynch.

Also, claiming in twilight is ridiculous.

Doesn't this argument depend on the mason actually being a mason though? The point of the mason claim isn't to out the other town mason, it's to tie the scum together in the case that it's a fakeclaim.

[Twistedarcher]

Oh, and also in case Gkrieg does get NK'd, we have a confirmed IC.

[Witherweaver]

Well I'm pretty sure it's Ash.  I think he heavily hinted he was the Mason.  Less sure now that he's actually town.  He could have been laying false crumbs.

[Witherweaver]

Which is also (ironically enough) why I thought my fake Mason claim might have worked.  I had thought that Ash might see it as I did.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Oh, and also in case Gkrieg does get NK'd, we have a confirmed IC.

If Gkrieg flips mason, any uncounterclaimed Mason is an IC.  And scum are welcome to trade 1-for-1 all they like.

[Awaclus]

There's no pro-town narrative for what Awaclus is doing. There is a pro-scum narrative. There's also a "I don't care to win this game, I'm going to prove a point" narrative. I have no clue how to differentiate between #2 and #3, but this line of thought is actually exhausting and draining, and I don't want to have to jump through hoops to try to play what's supposed to be a fun game.

I believe this is pro-town.

[silverspawn]

i am a VT

vote: ww

This was a hammer.

Thread locked!

[silverspawn]

Final Vote Count Day 2

Awaclus (2): chairs, Twistedarcher
Witherweaver (6): gkrieg13, Awaclus, ashersky, UmbrageOfSnow, Witherweaver, yuma
Twistedarcher (1): Hydrad

Not Voting (1): Jimmmmm

With 10 alive, it took 6 to lynch.

[silverspawn]

Maybe they were on a timer.

Regardless of whether or not this was the case, Twilight decided to turn her idea into a reality – now. Carefully letting go of Pinkie and nudging her in direction of the others, she gave a quiet sigh and sat down beside the book.

'I want to create a fully coequal clone of myself.'

'Sure.'

"Can you create more than one?"

Twilight winced, her hear jerking upwards. There, she stood – or, the other she. Twilight wasn't even surprised that it had worked, with the way the book functioned, it seemed to be more about creativity than anything else, but even so – she hadn't been prepared for it coming true instantly.

'Uh...'

The other Twilight giggled, and for some reason, this send a shiver down Twilight's spine. “You should probably ask that the book,” she said.

In a sudden blur, Rainbow Dash came soaring towards them and asked something about what was going on, but Twilight only stumbled a short response before doing as her clone had told her.

'Can we do this more than once?'

'Nah.. It was a good idea, but allowing it multiple times would be game breaking.'

Twilight and Rainbow Dash stared at the other Twilight, while she was giving a short explanation of what was happening.

Was she always being so...

Rainbow snorted. "You might aswell ask the book if we can kill players just by asking."

“That's a good idea, Rainbow. Wouldn't surprise me if we can.”

…

"Hey, Twi!"

“Oh, right.”

'Can we request to remove players from the game?'

'Yes.'

'Are you a player, too?'

It had been a spontaneous question, and Twilight certainly hadn't expected a positive answer, but...

'Of course.'

"Hey, that was really smart." Another giggle.

Twilight's breath halted for a moment. “Thank you,” she whispered. “Do you... uhm... think we should do it?”

“Well, there's hardly a chance that he's playing on our side, is there?"

“We should ask the others.” As if on cue, the remainder of the group just came walking over. Pinkie's hair was in her normal, fluffy state again – but she wasn't bouncing, which was a clear sign that not everything was right just yet.

“Good that you're here. We have a decision to make...”

[silverspawn]

Witherweaver has been lynched. He was The Author, a Vanilla Townie.

Night 2 begins now and ends at September 26, 6 pm forum time (this is in one day).

[silverspawn]

The world broke apart.

The moment when Twilight had finished the final letter of the line that would pull the book out of the game, everything turned into chaos. The little terrace that they had built, their made-up paradise in the midst of nothingness, it could not sustain without its creator. Her instinct should have been to look out for her friends, but instead, the pony she found herself rushing towards was herself, and once she had reached her and looked out for the others, she saw that it was already too late. Everything seemed to be pulled away from an unknown center point, and the other four were still standing at the other side of it.

The other Twilight tried to say something, and only now did she realize that all sound had been drained from this place entirely. Shaking her head, she instead gave her a poke onto the shoulder, pointing into a direction to her left. Turning her head, Twilight could see Fluttershy not far away, and unlike the other four, her position made it so she was pulled in a direction similar to Twilight's. Exchanging a nod with her doppelganger, both of them rushed towards her; all the while being pulled away from the epicenter, faster and faster...

... an then they crashed into the pegasus, and the three of them formed a living mess of bones and limbs, slithering over he floor and coming to a sudden halt against the wall at the end of the room. Small stars were dancing in front of her eyes, and Twilight shook her head to clear her vision.

In the center of the room, red and golden letters hang in the air, seemingly attached onto nothing. They read:

SACRED ROOM OF DIVINE INTERVENTION

[silverspawn]

Hydrad has died in the night. He was the Harry Potter novel, a Town Doctor.

Day 3 starts now and lasts until October 5th, 6 pm forum time.

[yuma]

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch. That means that unless scum busses town has to vote together correctly. And we are kinda in lylo?

But I am still safe to Vote: awaclus

[Awaclus]

Vote: yuma

Holy crap, what were you doing? I mean, I wanted to lynch WW too but that was way too early.

[ashersky]

Now was Yuma hammer a mistake, or a scum hammer masked as a mistake?

This screamed out at me but the thread locked.

Sounds incredibly like you knew WW was going to flip town.

[ashersky]

Also, Doctor means EEE or any number of Ds.

[yuma]

Vote: yuma

Holy crap, what were you doing? I mean, I wanted to lynch WW too but that was way too early.

accident. he put himself at L-1 and I didn't realize where he was at... And i forgot that voting for someone and then unvoting in the same post still counts as a vote. That was dumb. I should have been more careful, but level of care at this point in this game is pretty low.

[yuma]

Vote: yuma

Holy crap, what were you doing? I mean, I wanted to lynch WW too but that was way too early.

Also scummy post.

vote: awaclus

[yuma]

also I think UoS is probably scum. But I want to lynch awaclus more.

[ashersky]

also I think UoS is probably scum. But I want to lynch awaclus more.

Can we hear more on the UOS thing?

Any thoughts on TA?  Am I crazy?  I think he slipped there that he knew WW was town already.

[yuma]

also I think UoS is probably scum. But I want to lynch awaclus more.

Can we hear more on the UOS thing?

Any thoughts on TA?  Am I crazy?  I think he slipped there that he knew WW was town already.

seemed pretty meh to me.

You can hear more about UoS if we lynch Awaclus... 

[yuma]

just kidding... mostly UoS had the fake outrage going down pretty hard all game... i used to be the master of that...

I'll post examles when I have more time.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 3.1

Awaclus (1): yuma
yuma (1): Awaclus

Not Voting (6): Jimmmmm, chairs, Twistedarcher, gkrieg13, ashersky, UmbrageOfSnow

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 3 ends on October 05, 06 pm forum time.

[yuma]

Vote: yuma

Holy crap, what were you doing? I mean, I wanted to lynch WW too but that was way too early.

Also scummy post.

vote: awaclus

Like really once again he is trying to distance himself from a lynch on a townie... Sure he says he wanted WW lynched, but he didn't really want it that early, so instead of it being partially his fault it is all my fault.

Two scummy break of day reactions + everything else I have said about him.

[Awaclus]

Also scummy post.

vote: awaclus

It's not a scummy post. Town can make that mistake, but scum can make that mistake too, and scum can also do that deliberately.

[Awaclus]

Like really once again he is trying to distance himself from a lynch on a townie... Sure he says he wanted WW lynched, but he didn't really want it that early, so instead of it being partially his fault it is all my fault.

Two scummy break of day reactions + everything else I have said about him.

Well, it quite literally is your fault that it happened that early.

[yuma]

Like really once again he is trying to distance himself from a lynch on a townie... Sure he says he wanted WW lynched, but he didn't really want it that early, so instead of it being partially his fault it is all my fault.

Two scummy break of day reactions + everything else I have said about him.

Well, it quite literally is your fault that it happened that early.

It is my fault that it happened early. You think I, or anyone else doesn't know that already? Is that why you are voting me? Cause I made a mistake? Or is it cause you think I'll be an easy mislynch for the win?

But it is partially your fault that he was in that position to begin with, same with everyone else that was voting and trying to shift the lame completely to me is scummy. And again I get to decide it is scummy. Not you cause I control my vote and my opinion, not you. You are not me and I am not you and we are not all together

[Awaclus]

It is my fault that it happened early. You think I, or anyone else doesn't know that already? Is that why you are voting me? Cause I made a mistake? Or is it cause you think I'll be an easy mislynch for the win?

But it is partially your fault that he was in that position to begin with, same with everyone else that was voting and trying to shift the lame completely to me is scummy. And again I get to decide it is scummy. Not you cause I control my vote and my opinion, not you. You are not me and I am not you and we are not all together

I'm voting you because I don't think it was a mistake.

And yes, we are all Wandering Winder together.

[Twistedarcher]

Now was Yuma hammer a mistake, or a scum hammer masked as a mistake?

This screamed out at me but the thread locked.

Sounds incredibly like you knew WW was going to flip town.

Or it was incredibly obvious he was town..

[Twistedarcher]

I'm not saying it was yuma's fault, I'm saying he potentially had the opportunity to hammer with a good excuse that it was accidental.

We have another letter, and claimed VTs, we should probably claim. And definitely get the mason out at mylo.

[yuma]

It is my fault that it happened early. You think I, or anyone else doesn't know that already? Is that why you are voting me? Cause I made a mistake? Or is it cause you think I'll be an easy mislynch for the win?

But it is partially your fault that he was in that position to begin with, same with everyone else that was voting and trying to shift the lame completely to me is scummy. And again I get to decide it is scummy. Not you cause I control my vote and my opinion, not you. You are not me and I am not you and we are not all together

I'm voting you because I don't think it was a mistake.

And yes, we are all Wandering Winder together.

What makes you feel think it wasn't a mistake? What can you show to support this opinion?

[yuma]

I mean.... You asked me why I did it? This implies that you weren't sure it was on purpose. Yet you vote for me before I give a response as if you don't care what I have to say...

[yuma]

So here is the thing...

Let's assume for a moment that Awaclus is correct (he isn't, but let's just play with this assumption for a moment so I can make a point):

1. yuma is mafia
2. awaclus is town
3. therefore yuma was trying to get a mislynch on awaclus
4. yuma purposefully lynched town!WW

Ok. so those are the assumptions.

But there is a problem with those assumptions and how yesterday played out. If scum!yuma was trying to get a mislynch on town!awaclus why would he purposefully hammer town!WW when town!WW was his main support behind lynching awaclus?

I think most would agree that if scum!yuma's main goal yesterday was to get a mislynch on town!awaclus it would be really stupid to purposefully lynch WW. For starters it removes his main support to get awaclus lynched and secondly it would have placed an enormous amount of suspicion on him when an appealing alternative would have been to get WW and others to actually lynch town!awaclus and then move over to mislynch WW the next day (because ash and a few others probably would have still been all over that).

So we can see that these assumptions don't work out. I'll admit that I haven't disproven the possibility of scum!yuma making a derphammer mistake. But I think we can eliminate the idea of scum!yuma purposefully hammering WW. That just doesn't make sense, yet it seems that is what awaclus is trying to imply. And in and of itself this implication doesn't make awaclus any scummier, it just shows that he hasn't thought it out.

So in summary one of the following four options was removed.
1. yuma is scum and mistakenly hammered
2. yuma is scum and purposefully hammered
3. yuma is town and accidentally hammered
4. yuma is town and purposefully hammered (this one is already removed because if I had purposefully hammered I would have admitted to it up front as town)

[Twistedarcher]

So here is the thing...

Let's assume for a moment that Awaclus is correct (he isn't, but let's just play with this assumption for a moment so I can make a point):

1. yuma is mafia
2. awaclus is town
3. therefore yuma was trying to get a mislynch on awaclus
4. yuma purposefully lynched town!WW

Ok. so those are the assumptions.

But there is a problem with those assumptions and how yesterday played out. If scum!yuma was trying to get a mislynch on town!awaclus why would he purposefully hammer town!WW when town!WW was his main support behind lynching awaclus?

I think most would agree that if scum!yuma's main goal yesterday was to get a mislynch on town!awaclus it would be really stupid to purposefully lynch WW. For starters it removes his main support to get awaclus lynched and secondly it would have placed an enormous amount of suspicion on him when an appealing alternative would have been to get WW and others to actually lynch town!awaclus and then move over to mislynch WW the next day (because ash and a few others probably would have still been all over that).

So we can see that these assumptions don't work out. I'll admit that I haven't disproven the possibility of scum!yuma making a derphammer mistake. But I think we can eliminate the idea of scum!yuma purposefully hammering WW. That just doesn't make sense, yet it seems that is what awaclus is trying to imply. And in and of itself this implication doesn't make awaclus any scummier, it just shows that he hasn't thought it out.

So in summary one of the following four options was removed.
1. yuma is scum and mistakenly hammered
2. yuma is scum and purposefully hammered
3. yuma is town and accidentally hammered
4. yuma is town and purposefully hammered (this one is already removed because if I had purposefully hammered I would have admitted to it up front as town)

This feels like a straw man. I don't think anyone would imply that scum Yuma wouldn't switch to another town mostly children if it benefited him, which is what you're implying.

[yuma]

I think I know what you are saying but a typo made me unsure. Could you clarify that?

[yuma]

Also am I the only one that was kinda happy to see that ashersky was completely wrong about WW in terms of the weird mason fake claim thing... Weird doesn't equal scummy. In fact it generally means the opposite as has been proven over and over again. Keep that in mind over the next few days.

[yuma]

Below is a smattering of what could conceivably be fake outrage from UoS. As I have said before part of being mafia is creating a persona that is sooo pro-town that it almost becomes this kind of mantle of responsibility that everything be done properly and according to cultural rules. Putting down mass claiming, trying to get people to post more, worrying about deadlines, etc, etc. Which in and of itself isn't necessarily scummy, especially in isolation. But when it becomes a major theme it starts to look like someone trying to make themselves look especially useful to town.

I haven't read anything but see something about L-1. CAN WE PLEASE STOP IT WITH THESE HYPER-SHORT DAYS.  Early L-1 is good, but let's let days last until everyone has time to talk about things.

Absolutely no reason for the 2nd Mason to claim unless they're going to be lynched.
If Gkrieg is Mason and gets NKed, any uncounterclaimed single Mason is IC.  Outing ICs is bad, mmkay?

Mass claiming is terrible.

Is anyone in favor of it for a reason other than boredom?

Did Yuma just hammer?

Also, I am not claiming unless, after looking at other claims, I believe my claim would catch scum in a lie, or I'm about to be lynched.

Mass claiming is terrible.

We really need to get this frustration and apathy under control, I'm not sure what caused it, but it seems like a real problem lately.

Playing poorly won't fix it.

Mass claiming is terrible.

Is anyone in favor of it for a reason other than boredom?

I'd like the other mason to claim. If we're playing with 2x goon, it's likely the mason claim is fake. We don't have to massclaim but I would definitely like the other mason to claim today.

As I laid out before, other mason claiming is bad until we get much later into the game, or to prevent their own lynch.

Also, claiming in twilight is ridiculous.

add in the way that I felt him jumping ship from Awaclus because of the Shakespeare excuse was extremely convenient... so I think him kinda scummy, but no where near the Awaclus level

[chairs]

vote: gkrieg13 And not moving until the other mason claims.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Yuma, if Awaclus and I are scumbuddies, why would I bus him the way I did Day 1 or Day 2?

What about my push on Awaclus looks like a bus to you?

If I'm scum and he's town, why would I begin the ship-jumping myself when he was seeming kind of inevitable?

Mason claiming makes more sense now that we have another PR flip.  I'd be okay with a fullclaim at this point.

Scum!Yuma has no reason to prefer an Awaclus lynch to a WW lynch if Awaclus and WW are town.

[Twistedarcher]

So here is the thing...

Let's assume for a moment that Awaclus is correct (he isn't, but let's just play with this assumption for a moment so I can make a point):

1. yuma is mafia
2. awaclus is town
3. therefore yuma was trying to get a mislynch on awaclus
4. yuma purposefully lynched town!WW

Ok. so those are the assumptions.

But there is a problem with those assumptions and how yesterday played out. If scum!yuma was trying to get a mislynch on town!awaclus why would he purposefully hammer town!WW when town!WW was his main support behind lynching awaclus?

I think most would agree that if scum!yuma's main goal yesterday was to get a mislynch on town!awaclus it would be really stupid to purposefully lynch WW. For starters it removes his main support to get awaclus lynched and secondly it would have placed an enormous amount of suspicion on him when an appealing alternative would have been to get WW and others to actually lynch town!awaclus and then move over to mislynch WW the next day (because ash and a few others probably would have still been all over that).

So we can see that these assumptions don't work out. I'll admit that I haven't disproven the possibility of scum!yuma making a derphammer mistake. But I think we can eliminate the idea of scum!yuma purposefully hammering WW. That just doesn't make sense, yet it seems that is what awaclus is trying to imply. And in and of itself this implication doesn't make awaclus any scummier, it just shows that he hasn't thought it out.

So in summary one of the following four options was removed.
1. yuma is scum and mistakenly hammered
2. yuma is scum and purposefully hammered
3. yuma is town and accidentally hammered
4. yuma is town and purposefully hammered (this one is already removed because if I had purposefully hammered I would have admitted to it up front as town)

This feels like a straw man. I don't think anyone would imply that scum Yuma wouldn't switch to another town member if it benefited him, which is what you're implying.

Phone autocorrect fixed for Yuma

[ashersky]

vote: gkrieg13 And not moving until the other mason claims.

vote: chairs

This is wrong, TA is right.

Gkrieg should direct the mass claim.  Scummiest to towniest.

Awaclus should go first, in my opinion.

[Awaclus]

What makes you feel think it wasn't a mistake? What can you show to support this opinion?

It's a super convenient excuse for scum. Even if it was a mistake, it still doesn't mean you're town.

I mean.... You asked me why I did it? This implies that you weren't sure it was on purpose. Yet you vote for me before I give a response as if you don't care what I have to say...

Yeah, it was one of those rhetorical questions.

So here is the thing...

Let's assume for a moment that Awaclus is correct (he isn't, but let's just play with this assumption for a moment so I can make a point):

1. yuma is mafia
2. awaclus is town
3. therefore yuma was trying to get a mislynch on awaclus
4. yuma purposefully lynched town!WW

Ok. so those are the assumptions.

But there is a problem with those assumptions and how yesterday played out. If scum!yuma was trying to get a mislynch on town!awaclus why would he purposefully hammer town!WW when town!WW was his main support behind lynching awaclus?

I think most would agree that if scum!yuma's main goal yesterday was to get a mislynch on town!awaclus it would be really stupid to purposefully lynch WW. For starters it removes his main support to get awaclus lynched and secondly it would have placed an enormous amount of suspicion on him when an appealing alternative would have been to get WW and others to actually lynch town!awaclus and then move over to mislynch WW the next day (because ash and a few others probably would have still been all over that).

So we can see that these assumptions don't work out. I'll admit that I haven't disproven the possibility of scum!yuma making a derphammer mistake. But I think we can eliminate the idea of scum!yuma purposefully hammering WW. That just doesn't make sense, yet it seems that is what awaclus is trying to imply. And in and of itself this implication doesn't make awaclus any scummier, it just shows that he hasn't thought it out.

So in summary one of the following four options was removed.
1. yuma is scum and mistakenly hammered
2. yuma is scum and purposefully hammered
3. yuma is town and accidentally hammered
4. yuma is town and purposefully hammered (this one is already removed because if I had purposefully hammered I would have admitted to it up front as town)

Why would you want to get a mislynch on me in particular? Your goal was to get any mislynch you could, you saw me as an easy mislynch, then you saw an opportunity to make a more difficult mislynch happen yesterday and went for it. And while WW was your main support behind lynching me, he was also the main person being suspicious of you, so it's not at all like getting rid of WW was an awful move for scum!you or anything. It's also beneficial to do things that place you under an enormous amount of suspicion as scum, because then you can explain how you wouldn't do something like that as scum and if people believe you, it's a win-win situation for you.

[yuma]

Yuma, if Awaclus and I are scumbuddies, why would I bus him the way I did Day 1 or Day 2?

What about my push on Awaclus looks like a bus to you?

If I'm scum and he's town, why would I begin the ship-jumping myself when he was seeming kind of inevitable?

Mason claiming makes more sense now that we have another PR flip.  I'd be okay with a fullclaim at this point.

Scum!Yuma has no reason to prefer an Awaclus lynch to a WW lynch if Awaclus and WW are town.

Bussing is a thing. Day1 you came in late and maybe thought you had to join it, but it didn't go through so you had to continue on day2. Really, it isn't out of the realm of possibilities...

But first we should lynch awaclus and once he flips scum go back and actually see if that makes sense given. Right now it is just something that I think could be possible, but don't have any thing specific to back it up. Maybe there is something, maybe there isn't. But to find out I would say to first lynch awaclus, the scummiest person around.

[yuma]

If I am scum, then I don't want to just get one mislynch. I want to get two to win the game. One mislynch alone does nothing for scum Yuma if I can't get another one later on. Ww had shown through out the game that he would be constantly willing to vote for awaclus. Why get rid of that support system in a way that puts more of the focus on me when instead scum Yuma could have just let awaclus get lynched and then join onto the inevitable ww mislynch the next day.

Of course all of this is under two assumptions that aren't true. I am town and two, awaclus is most likely scum.

[yuma]

Ash: does this situation seem to you to be at all familiar to switch mafia? M15?

[yuma]

also: anyone have any theories for why Hydrad was the NK?

[Awaclus]

If I am scum, then I don't want to just get one mislynch. I want to get two to win the game. One mislynch alone does nothing for scum Yuma if I can't get another one later on. Ww had shown through out the game that he would be constantly willing to vote for awaclus. Why get rid of that support system in a way that puts more of the focus on me when instead scum Yuma could have just let awaclus get lynched and then join onto the inevitable ww mislynch the next day.

Of course all of this is under two assumptions that aren't true. I am town and two, awaclus is most likely scum.

Indeed, one mislynch does nothing, and that's why you need to mislynch me today. WW said he had a town read on me at the end of D2, so even though he was evidently willing to do crazy things in that particular moment, it's not at all clear that he would have continued to do so later. I also expressed being willing to vote for WW, so getting rid of me would have also made it more difficult to mislynch WW today. Without me voting for him, and without himself voting for himself, a WW mislynch today would have been far from inevitable.

You also keep bringing up that putting more focus on you thing, which mostly makes me think you were already planning on constantly bringing it up today when you made your "mistake".

[Awaclus]

also: anyone have any theories for why Hydrad was the NK?

He was a doctor so I assume scum were PR hunting and successful.

[yuma]

I also expressed being willing to vote for WW, so getting rid of me would have also made it more difficult to mislynch WW today. Without me voting for him, and without himself voting for himself, a WW mislynch today would have been far from inevitable.

You also keep bringing up that putting more focus on you thing, which mostly makes me think you were already planning on constantly bringing it up today when you made your "mistake".

Your first point that I quote is a good point, I had neglected to consider that.

Secondly... you better bet I have been thinking about it since I came back after I got home from work and realized that 1. I had accidentally hammered WW and 2. that WW was town.

It was very obvious that I would be the main target for an easy mislynch for the win and that I would have to work my tail off to try and avoid it.

But if you are trying to imply that I (as the theoretical me as scum) was able to completely and totally think through all of the possible ramifications in the short few minutes during that flurry of posts that went on when WW was lynched then you are giving scum!me far too much credit...

[yuma]

also: anyone have any theories for why Hydrad was the NK?

He was a doctor so I assume scum were PR hunting and successful.

yes, thanks... I hadn't thought of that...

but what made them think he was a PR?

I kinda have a theory about this (but haven't actually gone back and seen if it works out), but let's wait until we do the mass claim... 

I agree that awaclus should claim first. I have already claimed VT

[yuma]

Oh here you go Yuma

Vote: Witherweaver

i am a VT

vote: ww

no vote: awaclus

I have made two committments in my life and now I have to break one of them?

vote: wacitherus

as you can see from the time stamps: WW self voted at 50:18. I accidentally hammered at 51:39. So I had 1 minute and 21 seconds to think through this grand master plan, approx 15 seconds of which was actually spent 1. typing up post #1358 "Let's mass claim" and trying to get that through, which is when I saw that I had a PPE, which was WW voting and then 2. approx 20 seconds typing up the post above in which I hammer him.

So that leaves me less than 1 minute... in total. Basically I think this really shows that my hammer was accidental given the flurry of posts and PPE moments that came in. If I were scum I would have certainly taken a bit more time and thought it through and honestly, I would have not hammered that way.

People don't like the "If I were scum" arguments, but I think they actually apply because people here know me and my play style... If I were scum I would have pretended to try and talk WW out of self voting before hammering and then, if he wasn't willing to move I would have been "forced to hammer." That is more my method of modus operandi.

[Awaclus]

Oh here you go Yuma

Vote: Witherweaver

i am a VT

vote: ww

no vote: awaclus

I have made two committments in my life and now I have to break one of them?

vote: wacitherus

as you can see from the time stamps: WW self voted at 50:18. I accidentally hammered at 51:39. So I had 1 minute and 21 seconds to think through this grand master plan, approx 15 seconds of which was actually spent 1. typing up post #1358 "Let's mass claim" and trying to get that through, which is when I saw that I had a PPE, which was WW voting and then 2. approx 20 seconds typing up the post above in which I hammer him.

So that leaves me less than 1 minute... in total. Basically I think this really shows that my hammer was accidental given the flurry of posts and PPE moments that came in. If I were scum I would have certainly taken a bit more time and thought it through and honestly, I would have not hammered that way.

People don't like the "If I were scum" arguments, but I think they actually apply because people here know me and my play style... If I were scum I would have pretended to try and talk WW out of self voting before hammering and then, if he wasn't willing to move I would have been "forced to hammer." That is more my method of modus operandi.

Huh, I didn't pay much attention to the time stamps. In that case, I agree that it's not super likely that it was a planned move.

However, I still don't like how you immediately continued to push the nonexistent case on me at the very start of the day.

[Awaclus]

I don't have anything against claiming first, but I'll wait for gkrieg to get in here and give us the claiming order.

[gkrieg13]

I definitely agree with the mass claim.

Order:
Awaclus
Chairs
TA
UoS
Yuma would be here
Jimmmmm
Ashersky

Phone post so I hope I didn't forget anyone

[ashersky]

Ash: does this situation seem to you to be at all familiar to switch mafia? M15?

I would need to go back and read it.  I was scum right?  What am I looking at?  Your play?  No one else was around in f.ds.fg then.

[Awaclus]

I'm a VT.

[yuma]

Ash: does this situation seem to you to be at all familiar to switch mafia? M15?

I would need to go back and read it.  I was scum right?  What am I looking at?  Your play?  No one else was around in f.ds.fg then.

It was the game where you were scum and day1 I derphammered Galz (the SK switch) for self voting... that time I was catching up to the thread and saw that he had self voted (which turned out to be a ploy that was correctly caught out) and voted w/o reading through the rest of the thread and it turned out that others had voted for him and he was then at L-1.

Day2 you and joth led the charge against me saying that my hammering him was scummy and I was nearly lynched for it. In the end town won! But just barely.

[yuma]

Huh, I didn't pay much attention to the time stamps. In that case, I agree that it's not super likely that it was a planned move.

However, I still don't like how you immediately continued to push the nonexistent case on me at the very start of the day.

thanks for acknowledging that. In addition I would also point out that my previous post of "Let's mass claim" implies that I expected the day to go much longer, and I even claimed in the post in which I voted for WW. Thus showing that the vote was accidental as I anticipated the day continuing beyond my vote.

But as you say, that doesn't necessarily mean I am not scum because I could have accidentally hammered as scum (perfectly plausible from your point of view if you are town).

So I take it that you are now voting for me because I am immediately pushing a case against you, I am going to ignore the non-existent part because that is your opinion (if you are indeed town, but if you are scum then of course it isn't non-existent) and you are entitled to it as I am entitled to mine.

[yuma]

I believe chairs said elsewhere (wasn't in the VLA thread) that he had a minor emergency and wouldn't be able to post until Monday. Not a big deal as we have time, but it does mean the mass claim plan will likely be delayed for a little while.

[Twistedarcher]

I'm here -- want me to go now or wait for Chairs?

[Awaclus]

No one else was around in f.ds.fg then.

[yuma]

I'm here -- want me to go now or wait for Chairs?

I am ok with it, but I guess I am not the person to be asking...

[yuma]

It is my fault that it happened early. You think I, or anyone else doesn't know that already? Is that why you are voting me? Cause I made a mistake? Or is it cause you think I'll be an easy mislynch for the win?

But it is partially your fault that he was in that position to begin with, same with everyone else that was voting and trying to shift the lame completely to me is scummy. And again I get to decide it is scummy. Not you cause I control my vote and my opinion, not you. You are not me and I am not you and we are not all together

I'm voting you because I don't think it was a mistake.

Here you say that you are voting me because you don't think it was a mistake, which I refute below--and which you agree--and then you changed the reason you were voting me to "immediately pushing a case" against you...

Anyone else thinks this is fishy?

[Awaclus]

Here you say that you are voting me because you don't think it was a mistake, which I refute below--and which you agree--and then you changed the reason you were voting me to "immediately pushing a case" against you...

I was replying to that particular post, not explaining my case on you.

[chairs]

I am a VT.

[yuma]

Here you say that you are voting me because you don't think it was a mistake, which I refute below--and which you agree--and then you changed the reason you were voting me to "immediately pushing a case" against you...

I was replying to that particular post, not explaining my case on you.

Which would have been a great time to say "I also thought the way you came in today "immediately pushing a case against you"

But you didn't. So now it looks to me as if once I disassembled the reason you were voting for me, you looked around, thought yourself, "What else could I vote yuma for around here...? Lo and behold there he is pushing a case on you immediately at the start of the day--which really isn't scummy by the way. Allowing you to just leave your vote right where it is.

I mean I specifically asked you, "Is that why you are voting me? And you specifically answered "I'm voting you because I don't think it was a mistake." Nothing else was said about anything else. If you had other reasons--which I am thinking you didn't--you need't outline a whole huge case. You just needed to say... "and there is also this." But I don't think you were thinking about "this" at the time, where you?

[ashersky]

Here you say that you are voting me because you don't think it was a mistake, which I refute below--and which you agree--and then you changed the reason you were voting me to "immediately pushing a case" against you...

I was replying to that particular post, not explaining my case on you.

Which would have been a great time to say "I also thought the way you came in today "immediately pushing a case against you"

But you didn't. So now it looks to me as if once I disassembled the reason you were voting for me, you looked around, thought yourself, "What else could I vote yuma for around here...? Lo and behold there he is pushing a case on you immediately at the start of the day--which really isn't scummy by the way. Allowing you to just leave your vote right where it is.

I mean I specifically asked you, "Is that why you are voting me? And you specifically answered "I'm voting you because I don't think it was a mistake." Nothing else was said about anything else. If you had other reasons--which I am thinking you didn't--you need't outline a whole huge case. You just needed to say... "and there is also this." But I don't think you were thinking about "this" at the time, where you?

I see where this is coming from, and it resonates...but!

So, I was going to reply to your previous thing, but then Awaclus chimed in, and I was sort of OBE'd.  I do feel like it went like this:

Awaclus: "I'm calling you out for A."
yuma: "Okay, fair enough.  But A happened because of B."
Awaclus: "I wasn't calling you out for A so much as mentioning it, but really C!"

That exchange felt scummy.  Where I feel like your posts aren't helping is that they feel like you are just trying to find every single post by Awaclus scummy, when maybe not all of them are, so when you do quote and point out something scummy, it loses some of its omph.

[Awaclus]

Here you say that you are voting me because you don't think it was a mistake, which I refute below--and which you agree--and then you changed the reason you were voting me to "immediately pushing a case" against you...

I was replying to that particular post, not explaining my case on you.

Which would have been a great time to say "I also thought the way you came in today "immediately pushing a case against you"

But you didn't. So now it looks to me as if once I disassembled the reason you were voting for me, you looked around, thought yourself, "What else could I vote yuma for around here...? Lo and behold there he is pushing a case on you immediately at the start of the day--which really isn't scummy by the way. Allowing you to just leave your vote right where it is.

I mean I specifically asked you, "Is that why you are voting me? And you specifically answered "I'm voting you because I don't think it was a mistake." Nothing else was said about anything else. If you had other reasons--which I am thinking you didn't--you need't outline a whole huge case. You just needed to say... "and there is also this." But I don't think you were thinking about "this" at the time, where you?

I think it should be fairly well established at this point that I'm thinking about a lot of things that I don't say out loud.

It is my fault that it happened early. You think I, or anyone else doesn't know that already? Is that why you are voting me? Cause I made a mistake? Or is it cause you think I'll be an easy mislynch for the win?

I did not think this was a genuine question, it read like you were saying more or less "it was a mistake and that's why I'm an easy mislynch and that's why you're scummy for voting me" to me. I still don't really see why you would put it that way if you really just wanted to know why I'm voting you. Had you phrased your question in a way that made it actually seem like a question and not just rhetorics, like "Why are you voting me?" for example, I would have just told you that I'm voting you because you're scum. Instead, I used the same wording choice as you did to express my opinion that the statement "it was a mistake and that's why I'm an easy mislynch and that's why you're scummy for voting me" was wrong. Now, I no longer think that said statement is wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that you're scum.

[yuma]

That exchange felt scummy.  Where I feel like your posts aren't helping is that they feel like you are just trying to find every single post by Awaclus scummy, when maybe not all of them are, so when you do quote and point out something scummy, it loses some of its omph.

You do have a point and I am trying to be aware that I may have blinders on. But really a lot of the things he is doing is scummy. I don't think it was scummy of him to think that I might have done the hammer on purpose and it wasn't scummy of him to acknowledge that there wasn't time enough to do that.

And I am not trying to have any "omph" factor. I don't know. Maybe I should? I am just trying to call things as I see them and it is perfectly plausible that I am seeing things through scum tinted glasses when it comes to awaclus, but even without that tint there is a lot to find scummy in my opinion. So I mean the question is? Should I ignore scummy things he does just so that when I do call something out it resonates more for the rest of town? That just doesn't feel like something I should do as town... that sounds like manipulation and something mafia would do.

[yuma]

insert that one quote by WW cause I am too lazy to go and actually find it...

[Awaclus]

And I am not trying to have any "omph" factor. I don't know. Maybe I should? I am just trying to call things as I see them and it is perfectly plausible that I am seeing things through scum tinted glasses when it comes to awaclus, but even without that tint there is a lot to find scummy in my opinion. So I mean the question is? Should I ignore scummy things he does just so that when I do call something out it resonates more for the rest of town? That just doesn't feel like something I should do as town... that sounds like manipulation and something mafia would do.

I don't think you should do that, but it's not because you're town, it's because I am.

[ashersky]

That exchange felt scummy.  Where I feel like your posts aren't helping is that they feel like you are just trying to find every single post by Awaclus scummy, when maybe not all of them are, so when you do quote and point out something scummy, it loses some of its omph.

You do have a point and I am trying to be aware that I may have blinders on. But really a lot of the things he is doing is scummy. I don't think it was scummy of him to think that I might have done the hammer on purpose and it wasn't scummy of him to acknowledge that there wasn't time enough to do that.

And I am not trying to have any "omph" factor. I don't know. Maybe I should? I am just trying to call things as I see them and it is perfectly plausible that I am seeing things through scum tinted glasses when it comes to awaclus, but even without that tint there is a lot to find scummy in my opinion. So I mean the question is? Should I ignore scummy things he does just so that when I do call something out it resonates more for the rest of town? That just doesn't feel like something I should do as town... that sounds like manipulation and something mafia would do.

Maybe you don't need omph, but well, I think omph is good.  You've seen my style, I go all-out on omph, even when I run out of things to support my cases.  That's probably a good example of going too far on the other side.

I think we're both dancing around the "tunnel" term here, but it's probably fair to say you are tunneling Awaclus.  Tunneling isn't necessarily scummy (to me), but it can affect how others read your case.  I guess that's what I was pointing out.

There's been some scummy behavior.  Separating it from normal Awaclus is the hard part.

I think we need to finish this mass claim, then look hard at what we're doing (because we need to hit scum).

[Twistedarcher]

I'm a role blocker

[yuma]

I'm a role blocker

do we want claiming for night action choices for the past two nights?

I think we do.

[Awaclus]

I'm a role blocker

do we want claiming for night action choices for the past two nights?

I think we do.

I think so, too. I don't really see how scum would benefit from having that information.

[yuma]

the only thing that I could think of is if TA is telling the truth and if he roleblocked a player that claims to have a role later on during the mass claim he might catch them in a lie of when/on whom they used a role. But if he informed them of where he used his role that would provide them the necessary information to get away with making up a lie.

Long shot... but maybe worth having him hold off until everyone has claimed?

[Jimmmmm]

I'm a VT.

[yuma]

I'm a VT.

You skipped UoS.

Although I guess it doesn't really matter..

[Twistedarcher]

I'd prefer to wait but will claim if gkrieg wishes it.

[gkrieg13]

I don't see any harm in waiting.

[Twistedarcher]

All of the claimed VTs read townier to me

[Twistedarcher]

We know Ash is claiming the other mason, so it's just UoS left?

[Jimmmmm]

But without the town narrative that I have now, which is not necessarily the strongest ever because I didn't post a lot D1, but it's still there.

I see no town narrative for you. None. You don't get to decide whether or not you have a town narrative. The rest of the town gets to decide that.

Scumslip?

[Jimmmmm]

Okay, trying to work my way into this game.

gkrieg13 - Claimed Mason. I see no reason to disbelieve him at this point - we'll catch him if he's lying.
ashersky - Apparently going to claim Mason? He was wrong to advocate lynching WW - it was a silly lynch. But of course, ash can be equally wrong as Town or scum. I hope he is the other Mason.
yuma - Frustrated Town or conniving scum. Very hard to say with yuma. I don't see a particular reason to believe he's scum, but I certainly wouldn't put it past him. Not looking at lynching him today.

Twistedarcher - Claimed Roleblocker. I'm not sure I believe him. Tentatively my top lynch priority.
Awaclus - I don't really understand the arguments against him, I'll have to look into him further. But at this stage I'm not super against lynching him.
chairs, UmbrageOfSnow - I don't have much to say about either of these at this stage, other than I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was scum here.

[Twistedarcher]

Okay, trying to work my way into this game.

Twistedarcher - Claimed Roleblocker. I'm not sure I believe him. Tentatively my top lynch priority.

Because of the claim, or because of other reasons?

[Twistedarcher]

Okay, trying to work my way into this game.

gkrieg13 - Claimed Mason. I see no reason to disbelieve him at this point - we'll catch him if he's lying.

You say this, but this is kinda the point where we'd need to actually take action to catch him, right?

[gkrieg13]

Okay, trying to work my way into this game.

gkrieg13 - Claimed Mason. I see no reason to disbelieve him at this point - we'll catch him if he's lying.
ashersky - Apparently going to claim Mason? He was wrong to advocate lynching WW - it was a silly lynch. But of course, ash can be equally wrong as Town or scum. I hope he is the other Mason.
yuma - Frustrated Town or conniving scum. Very hard to say with yuma. I don't see a particular reason to believe he's scum, but I certainly wouldn't put it past him. Not looking at lynching him today.

Twistedarcher - Claimed Roleblocker. I'm not sure I believe him. Tentatively my top lynch priority.
Awaclus - I don't really understand the arguments against him, I'll have to look into him further. But at this stage I'm not super against lynching him.
chairs, UmbrageOfSnow - I don't have much to say about either of these at this stage, other than I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was scum here.

I could definitely see a scum in chairs/UoS.  I feel pretty towny on yuma.  What makes you against TA?

PPE haha

[gkrieg13]

PPE was in relation to this

Okay, trying to work my way into this game.

Twistedarcher - Claimed Roleblocker. I'm not sure I believe him. Tentatively my top lynch priority.

Because of the claim, or because of other reasons?

and not the one after it

[Jimmmmm]

Okay, trying to work my way into this game.

Twistedarcher - Claimed Roleblocker. I'm not sure I believe him. Tentatively my top lynch priority.

Because of the claim, or because of other reasons?

One or two things you've said have set off alarm bells, as I've noted. I'm not ready to lynch you quite yet, and I might not have time to investigate further today. In light of this, and on its own merit, your claim strikes me as unconvincing.

[Jimmmmm]

Okay, trying to work my way into this game.

gkrieg13 - Claimed Mason. I see no reason to disbelieve him at this point - we'll catch him if he's lying.

You say this, but this is kinda the point where we'd need to actually take action to catch him, right?

Well maybe, but we're massclaiming so we are. Still, scum claiming Mason on Day 1 would just be ridiculously risky.

[yuma]

But without the town narrative that I have now, which is not necessarily the strongest ever because I didn't post a lot D1, but it's still there.

I see no town narrative for you. None. You don't get to decide whether or not you have a town narrative. The rest of the town gets to decide that.

Scumslip?

Huh?

Either way it is not a slip given my pm that says I am town...

[Jimmmmm]

oh right you are town. how dumb of me to forget...

[Twistedarcher]

I don't get it Jimmmmm, can you explain all in one post what you're getting at?

[Twistedarcher]

Also, we should lynch Yuma so he can play Switch mafia....

[Jimmmmm]

I don't get it Jimmmmm, can you explain all in one post what you're getting at?

yuma said "The rest of the town gets to decide that", indicating that he knows Awaclus is Town. I'm not sure there's actually much to it.

I was also having a jab at him for using his PM as a defense, which seems to contradict his attitude in #1153-4.

[silverspawn]

Remember rule #10 in the OP when talking about PMs (nothing bad has happened yet, just a reminder).

[yuma]

I was also having a jab at him for using his PM as a defense, which seems to contradict his attitude in #1153-4.

Dumb scum slip  accusations get dumb defenses.

Also I refer to town as all the players of the game. Probably because that is how it was introduced to me in real life, with the moderator as the town mayor and the mafia the part of town that was trying to take over the rest of town

[yuma]

Awaclus - I don't really understand the arguments against him, I'll have to look into him further. But at this stage I'm not super against lynching him.

would you like me to outline a little bit more the points that I have in regard to him or would you prefer to go back and reread it for yourself? I am ok either way.

[Jimmmmm]

Awaclus - I don't really understand the arguments against him, I'll have to look into him further. But at this stage I'm not super against lynching him.

would you like me to outline a little bit more the points that I have in regard to him or would you prefer to go back and reread it for yourself? I am ok either way.

An outline can't hurt. My understanding is he claimed to have pushed for a WW lynch when he actually only voted for WW and nothing else, and then reacted scummily to your accusations?

[yuma]

Cool, an outline for Jimmmmm and anyone else that is interested:

Main point: Early day2 awaclus had an "I told you so" moment and tried take credit for pushing to lynch WW (whose alignment at that time was unknown).
- This looks like he was trying to distance himself from the lynch on PPS, which he was a part of.
- However, in looking back awaclus never actually told us that he wanted us to lynch WW.
    * His stated reason for wanting to lynch WW was that it was a better lynch than himself.
    * he did vote for him and have a mini-argument (which was actually mostly WW talking to faust and Awaclus kinda chiming in), which Awaclus said was supposed to imply a great desire for us to lynch WW.
- However (again) Awaclus opted to switch to PPS just a short while later despite this great desire, for the purpose of what he said was to get a lynch through.
    * at the time of the vote on WW the vote count stood as such:
Awaclus (4): UmbrageOfSnow, pingpongsam, WW, Hydrad
Witherweaver (4): chairs, ashersky, gkrieg13, Awaclus
pingpongsam (2): Twistedarcher, yuma
Twistedarcher (1): faust

Not voting (1): Jimmmm

    ** at the time of this vote to PPS the vote count stood as such:
Awaclus (3): Witherweaver, Jimmmmm, PPS
Witherweaver (4): chairs, ashersky, gkrieg13, Awaclus
pingpongsam (4): Twistedarcher, faust, yuma, UoS
Twistedarcher (1): Hydrad

    ***Please note that there was no difference between the WW and the PPS wagon at the time of his change. I will concede that Awaclus' vote did move us closer to a lynch by taking the PPS wagon up to 5 but I think at this time that if Awaclus actually wanted WW lynched he would have been better served to try and convince people to vote for WW--which he never vocally did--but instead he gave up on that lynch to join a wagon and take it up to 5.

- His reaction to being called out on this was scummy, but honestly harder to interpret because these sort of reactions are often more just pure emotion than anything else. But mostly I didn't buy the explanations that he was giving that we were supposed to read between the lines and obviously see that he really, really, really wanted WW lynched when he never explicitly said so and didn't vote or act accordingly, along with his hollow "I am town, so there!" arguments.

That is the main point:

In addition I would add:
-his scummy play from the beginning of day1 until the end, although people tell me that this is typical Awaclus style. I have read Day1--at Awaclus' suggestion--of Dwarf Mafia and felt he was quite different there from here.
- the fact that he has gotten close to being lynched both days but was never quite pushed over the top, as if scum buddies kept making sure he wasn't the lynch
- once again tried to distance himself from a lynch that he was on with the WW lynch by casting all of the blame on me (when in reality everyone on the wagon has a partial blame, and I take the most for my accidental hammer)
- and is now voting me basically for voting for him (for non-existent reasons, which is clearly not true as I believe there is a substantial amount against him as detailed above) despite never really having a scumread on me before and predicated by reason that I disputed. So it looks like he needed to scramble to find a reason to continue having a vote on me once his original reason collapsed.

[Jimmmmm]

Thanks, that helps.

One thing:

- the fact that he has gotten close to being lynched both days but was never quite pushed over the top, as if scum buddies kept making sure he wasn't the lynch

I never really buy into this line of reasoning, it's just too vague. Can you identify the scum who would otherwise have voted for Awaclus but didn't? Or the scum who would have refrained from voting pps or WW but hammered (you?)?

[yuma]

Thanks, that helps.

One thing:

- the fact that he has gotten close to being lynched both days but was never quite pushed over the top, as if scum buddies kept making sure he wasn't the lynch

I never really buy into this line of reasoning, it's just too vague. Can you identify the scum who would otherwise have voted for Awaclus but didn't? Or the scum who would have refrained from voting pps or WW but hammered (you?)?

You know. I can't. Well maybe I could, but I haven't necessarily looked really closely at that. That tends to be something that is done after a successful scum lynch is accomplished, ie if we lynch Awaclus and if he flips scum... But if it something you or others want me, specifically, to look at I would be willing to put my thoughts out there...

What I do feel is that there are times where scum just doesn't ever get lynched. I am stretching my memory here, but I feel like that happened in a couple of games I was in (Pirates II with mail-mi and Hydrad?maybe in Diffusion of Power).

But you could be right that it is something that is assumed to be true at times by f.ds but isn't really something that is "a thing."

But in the end that point is just ancillary and certainly isn't a worthy reason to vote for someone in isolation. I feel my other points carry enough weigh in and of themselves.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Hey, I'm a VT.

Sorry, this weekend got super busy out of nowhere and then I was too exhausted at night to log on when I thought I was going to be able to.  Basically delirious at the moment so going to sleep, but I'll have plenty of time tomorrow.

[Twistedarcher]

Ok. I roleblocked Faust N1 and Chairs N2.

[Twistedarcher]

Mason, roleblocker claims true:

DMMMBT. Strongman, Roleblocker, Godfather.

Mason claim true, roleblocker claim false:

DMMMTT. Strongman, Roleblocker, Godfather.

Mason claim false, roleblocker claim true:

DBTTTT. 1-shot Strongman, Roleblocker, Godfather.

Mason claim false, roleblocker claim false.

DTTTTT. Goon, Goon, Godfather (Potential 1-shot bulletproof).

[Twistedarcher]

I don't believe the masons, but that's largely based on the fact that I don't think all 3 scum would claim VT, which could be a faulty assumption.

[Twistedarcher]

If scum are goon, goon, godfather, they knew pre-game that there was a 90% chance masons were an uncounterable claim.

[Twistedarcher]

My plan is, if there are masons, claim right away.  There are good reasons for this.

This goes along with Ashersky setting up partner Gkrieg to claim D1.

Of course, it goes along with Ashersky setting up mason Gkrieg to claim D1, so yeah, not really a takeaway here.

[Twistedarcher]

Scratch the previous posts, I forgot to factor in my own letter in addition to the doctor.

[Twistedarcher]

Definitely at least one scum claimed VT, I know that and the masons know that if they're town. The rest of you don't know that 100%, but if you don't, you're saying team is me, Ashersky, Gkrieg. If we can assume that's not the team, we know we have Godfather and Roleblocker, and then either a Strongman or a 1-shot Strongman.

[Twistedarcher]

The extra letter makes a big difference, mason claim was a much less safer gambit. Struggling between the assumptions that

A) Scum wouldn't make a risky, potentially countered mason claim, which points towards Gkrieg/Ash being town
B) Scum wouldn't all claim VT, which points towards Gkrieg/Ash being scum

[ashersky]

The extra letter makes a big difference, mason claim was a much less safer gambit. Struggling between the assumptions that

A) Scum wouldn't make a risky, potentially countered mason claim, which points towards Gkrieg/Ash being town
B) Scum wouldn't all claim VT, which points towards Gkrieg/Ash being scum

B is a fallacy there, given you are leaving out the most obvious thing -- scum would claim roleblocker.

[ashersky]

As it is, the mass claim didn't do much for us as the only unverified letter is B.

Bigger question for right now -- why would a town roleblocker block a claimed and uncountered UB?

[ashersky]

TA is at the top of the list at this point -- I'd like to hear some reasoning for that block, plus I had that gut read at the end of D2.

Town to scum would be are gkrieg (of course), Jimmmmm, UOS, chairs, Yuma, Awaclus, TA right now.

Do we have 2 or 3 scum in the VTs?  That's the question of the day from the mass claim.

[yuma]

So I put this thought together before the mass claim in a QT and while I don't think it ultimately solved anything it might still be worth sharing, it is kinda scattered, I don't have time to clean it up but hopefully you will get the jist of what I was trying to say anyways:

trying to figure out why mafia might have killed Hydrad. Seems like a weird choice. Went through all of his posts and I couldn't find any breadcrumbs or drops. Mafia can't have a rolecop, isn't in the setup. Keep in mind that all of this is assuming that I am town. If you aren't comfortable with this assumption then well it is still good information to know.

So I think it was less that they thought Hydrad was the doc and more that they were able to PoE roles in some way.

During the NK there were 9 players alive (Jimmmmm, TA, UoS, gkeirg, ashersky, yuma, hydrad, awaclus, chairs) And we have at least MMMD (assuming the mason claim is true) so that brings us to TT so mafia has a Godfather, Strongman; Roleblocker setup. So they know that of the 9-3=6 townies alive at least 3 must have PRs.

at the time the following had claimed:
gkeirg - mason
ashersky - hadn't claimed, but was pretty obvious to be mason
yuma - VT
Jimmmmm - VT

leaving: TA, UoS, hydrad, awaclus, chairs. randomly we will call them A,B,C,D,E

Take away the three mafia (A,B,C) and you are left with two players (D,E)

So mafia at least has a 50/50 shot of hitting a PR. Obviously they picked Hydrad (E). Pretty good odds, but who would they kill hydrad over? just purely over posting and being around, I would say chairs.

Now this is also assuming that Jimmmm is town. I am not comfortable making that assumption. If after the elimination step above there had only been one option (hydrad) then I would be more comfortable making this assumption.

However, it is all I have to work with right now.

So based off this I feel that the most likely scum team would be: (drum roll!!!!): UoS, Awaclus, TA

Which doesn't really fit with what I am seeing from playstyle so I guess this whole process left me with nothing... I could easily sub in chairs/Jimmmm for any one of those players, although I still have something of a townread on chairs.

I'll end up posting this into the game thread once the last mass claim is over, assuming of course that ashersky is the other mason.

I haven't worked through what this might mean if TA is telling the truth or not... well I'll try right now.

If he is telling the truth then mafia wouldn't be able to differentiate between TT or T, they would just know that they had Godfather, Roleblocker, Strongman.

so claimed people were again:
gkeirg Mason
ashersky Mason
yuma VT
Jimmmmm VT

the other five would be:
Hydrad
TA
chairs
UoS
Awaclus

Three of those are scum leaving two left. So depending on if mafia was at T or TT (again they wouldn't know) they would have a 50% chance of hitting a PR in one scenario and and 100% chance in another. Wouldn't that make it 75%?

Again this is under the assumption that Jimmmmm is town (and that I am town). But under those assumptions there is a narrative for why mafia would pick hydrad--who at the time was lurking and receiving some suspicion of his own--instead of choosing to take out one of the masons. Because if all the claims are true Mafia would have a Strongman to perform kills so wouldn't worry about that, they would likely be more worried about Vigs/Cop.

So at this point I think (again speculating on Jimmmm being town--I need to look closer on what this would imply if Jimmmm weren't town) I want to lynch from the VTs, excluding Jimmmmm.

[yuma]

As it is, the mass claim didn't do much for us as the only unverified letter is B.

Bigger question for right now -- why would a town roleblocker block a claimed and uncountered UB?

oh and there is this. I too would like an answer. But I am not sure if it is weird behavior again or scummy, but I'll leave off commenting a lot until we hear from TA.

[yuma]

wait... I did something wrong up above. TA should be considered the same as the VTs...

Ugh. Not sure anything was useful up there.

[gkrieg13]

I would think there is 2 mafia in the VTs and the other one is TA.  It seems very strange for him to roleblock the UB, especially when he wasn't counterclaimed.  I think there were much more suspicious people going into N1 than the UB. There has to be scum in the VTs as well with only 4 verified letters.  Also scum knowing they were in a TT situation or T would be more likely to claim VT because they know there should be at least 3 or them with the masons and the doctor.  So VT wise, we have chairs, Jimmmmm, Awaclus, yuma, UoS.  TA would know that he would be safe claiming roleblocker because they have strongman-roleblocker, which means at least one T.

[Twistedarcher]

As it is, the mass claim didn't do much for us as the only unverified letter is B.

Bigger question for right now -- why would a town roleblocker block a claimed and uncountered UB?

I didn't 100% trust the claim. it was either him or gkrieg n1. I was worried about blocking a cop and knew that if faust is town, roleblocking him had no downside since he had no night action.

[Twistedarcher]

I would think there is 2 mafia in the VTs and the other one is TA.  It seems very strange for him to roleblock the UB, especially when he wasn't counterclaimed.  I think there were much more suspicious people going into N1 than the UB. There has to be scum in the VTs as well with only 4 verified letters.  Also scum knowing they were in a TT situation or T would be more likely to claim VT because they know there should be at least 3 or them with the masons and the doctor.  So VT wise, we have chairs, Jimmmmm, Awaclus, yuma, UoS.  TA would know that he would be safe claiming roleblocker because they have strongman-roleblocker, which means at least one T.

wouldn't scum me know this, and claim someone other than faust as my target? that's a damned if i do damned if i dont situation you're putting me into here.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 3.2

Awaclus (1): yuma
yuma (1): Awaclus
gkrieg13 (1): chairs
chairs (1): ashersky

Not Voting (4): Twistedarcher, gkrieg13, UmbrageOfSnow, Jimmmmm

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 3 ends on October 05, 06 pm forum time.

[chairs]

Hmm..

So claimed VTs at this stage are:

chairs
UoS
yuma

who else?

I could go for a VT lynch, I suppose.

[ashersky]

Hmm..

So claimed VTs at this stage are:

chairs
UoS
yuma

who else?

I could go for a VT lynch, I suppose.

Really?  Who else?

Awaclus and Jimmmm.

It's been broken down very recently.

[ashersky]

As it is, the mass claim didn't do much for us as the only unverified letter is B.

Bigger question for right now -- why would a town roleblocker block a claimed and uncountered UB?

I didn't 100% trust the claim. it was either him or gkrieg n1. I was worried about blocking a cop and knew that if faust is town, roleblocking him had no downside since he had no night action.

Is this a too crazy to be scum thing?  Why would you block the only claimed town PRs?  Why not try to block possible scum?

[Twistedarcher]

As it is, the mass claim didn't do much for us as the only unverified letter is B.

Bigger question for right now -- why would a town roleblocker block a claimed and uncountered UB?

I didn't 100% trust the claim. it was either him or gkrieg n1. I was worried about blocking a cop and knew that if faust is town, roleblocking him had no downside since he had no night action.

Is this a too crazy to be scum thing?  Why would you block the only claimed town PRs?  Why not try to block possible scum?

He wasn't 100% town.

[yuma]

I would think there is 2 mafia in the VTs and the other one is TA.  It seems very strange for him to roleblock the UB, especially when he wasn't counterclaimed.  I think there were much more suspicious people going into N1 than the UB. There has to be scum in the VTs as well with only 4 verified letters.  Also scum knowing they were in a TT situation or T would be more likely to claim VT because they know there should be at least 3 or them with the masons and the doctor.  So VT wise, we have chairs, Jimmmmm, Awaclus, yuma, UoS.  TA would know that he would be safe claiming roleblocker because they have strongman-roleblocker, which means at least one T.

wouldn't scum me know this, and claim someone other than faust as my target? that's a damned if i do damned if i dont situation you're putting me into here.

frankly I agree. I don't think it is scummy behavior. i think it is weird behavior. Big difference. I don't necessarily agree with the logic, but I do understand it. Many people see RB as more of a negative utility for town than a PR.

[yuma]

I mean, going into Night1 I had red flags raised all over the place on faust. I did a big QT post for myself trying to figure out situations that faust could have been lying. It ended up being useless because faust flipped UB, but I was certainly trying to figure it out.

Mostly I just don't see scum!TA using that as a claim. It is too weird and too suspicious and not a convenient lie at all, especially since he claimed who he blocked last and knew exactly who he could easily fake claim to have blocked instead.

[ashersky]

Mostly I just don't see scum!TA using that as a claim.

I feel that, too.

Which would be scum!TA's point.

[yuma]

Mostly I just don't see scum!TA using that as a claim.

I feel that, too.

Which would be scum!TA's point.

And I feel that too.

But again, this goes back to scum risk/reward analysis, like I was talking about with WW. For this to work for scum!TA he has to rely on the town members in this game saying what I am saying. And I might not say that (from his perspective). You might not say that. No one might say that. It is a huge risk and takes the decision out of his hands completely. Instead everyone might just have said... "No way. That is a weird thing to do" and lynched him. He has to risk that possibility to get to the possibility of people thinking it was weird when he had the opportunity to not take the risk at all and get the same result (not weirdly suspicious) with a safer claim.

[ashersky]

I guess that's one thing with letting him hold his claims until later in the massclaim -- there was the "maybe he catches someone lying" thing, but also, inadvertently, the "he can safely claim blocked targets" thing.

[yuma]

I guess that's one thing with letting him hold his claims until later in the massclaim -- there was the "maybe he catches someone lying" thing, but also, inadvertently, the "he can safely claim blocked targets" thing.

But that is just the thing. He had the opportunity, but he didn't really use it to the full extent if he is scum. Cause if he is scum and is lying it is so much easier to say "roleblocked UoS" or "roleblocked Jimmmmm." No one would really bat an eye at that as long as it kinda matched up to his reads...

So the fact that he didn't as hypothetical scum makes his "weird" claim seem more believable.

[Twistedarcher]

I guess that's one thing with letting him hold his claims until later in the massclaim -- there was the "maybe he catches someone lying" thing, but also, inadvertently, the "he can safely claim blocked targets" thing.

But that is just the thing. He had the opportunity, but he didn't really use it to the full extent if he is scum. Cause if he is scum and is lying it is so much easier to say "roleblocked UoS" or "roleblocked Jimmmmm." No one would really bat an eye at that as long as it kinda matched up to his reads...

So the fact that he didn't as hypothetical scum makes his "weird" claim seem more believable.

I mean, I'm the only claimed night action, so who I claimed as potential scum is kinda irrelevant isn't it? No one's getting counterclaimed.

Chairs RB was an attempt to hit the scum NK (I had figured in retrospect that the scum NK would be someone in the background, but in retrospect, it was probably the strongman so irrelevant to actually gameplay choices)

[Twistedarcher]

Forum is being super slow again....

Yuma, seems like you believe my claim. Do you believe the masons and think that all 3 scum claimed VT?

[Awaclus]

Mostly I just don't see scum!TA using that as a claim.

I feel that, too.

Which would be scum!TA's point.

And I feel that too.

But again, this goes back to scum risk/reward analysis, like I was talking about with WW. For this to work for scum!TA he has to rely on the town members in this game saying what I am saying. And I might not say that (from his perspective). You might not say that. No one might say that. It is a huge risk and takes the decision out of his hands completely. Instead everyone might just have said... "No way. That is a weird thing to do" and lynched him. He has to risk that possibility to get to the possibility of people thinking it was weird when he had the opportunity to not take the risk at all and get the same result (not weirdly suspicious) with a safer claim.

He doesn't have to rely on the town members, a scum partner can also say what you're saying.

[Awaclus]

Mostly I just don't see scum!TA using that as a claim.

I feel that, too.

Which would be scum!TA's point.

And I feel that too.

But again, this goes back to scum risk/reward analysis, like I was talking about with WW. For this to work for scum!TA he has to rely on the town members in this game saying what I am saying. And I might not say that (from his perspective). You might not say that. No one might say that. It is a huge risk and takes the decision out of his hands completely. Instead everyone might just have said... "No way. That is a weird thing to do" and lynched him. He has to risk that possibility to get to the possibility of people thinking it was weird when he had the opportunity to not take the risk at all and get the same result (not weirdly suspicious) with a safer claim.

Scum!TA has partners who can say what you're saying. He can even say it himself. As long as town believes it, it'll work out.

[Awaclus]

I like repeating myself.

I like repeating myself.

(accidentally posted it twice because the forum was slow so I didn't think it actually sent my first post)

[yuma]

He doesn't have to rely on the town members, a scum partner can also say what you're saying.

Sure. But take that to the next level...

So a partner (which I think you are incorrectly implying is me here...) makes this argument. Ok. But does town agree with this analysis? What if they don't? Then scum!TA still gets lynched AND the next day the partner making this argument also also has a high probability of getting lynched. So now the risk is even further escalated for a reward that was already sitting pretty by just claiming to have Roleblocked someone "safe"

[yuma]

He doesn't have to rely on the town members, a scum partner can also say what you're saying.

Sure. But take that to the next level...

So a partner (which I think you are incorrectly implying is me here...) makes this argument. Ok. But does town agree with this analysis? What if they don't? Then scum!TA still gets lynched AND the next day the partner making this argument also also has a high probability of getting lynched. So now the risk is even further escalated for a reward that was already sitting pretty by just claiming to have Roleblocked someone "safe"

[yuma]

He doesn't have to rely on the town members, a scum partner can also say what you're saying.

Sure. But take that to the next level...

So a partner (which I think you are incorrectly implying is me here...) makes this argument. Ok. But does town agree with this analysis? What if they don't? Then scum!TA still gets lynched AND the next day the partner making this argument also also has a high probability of getting lynched. So now the risk is even further escalated for a reward that was already sitting pretty by just claiming to have Roleblocked someone "safe"

[yuma]

I like repeating myself

I like repeating myself

I like repeating myself

[yuma]

Forum is being super slow again....

Yuma, seems like you believe my claim. Do you believe the masons and think that all 3 scum claimed VT?

Yes, I think I believe your claim. In answering your next question (which I think is really questioning whether or not all three mafia would claim VT instead of whether or not I believe the mason claim), I am going to assume you are telling the truth...

So Hydrad is D and TA is R

so we would either have a DRTTTT (or EEE long shot, going to exclude cause it is much less likely)

or DRMMMT.

The point in question is the last one (DRMMMT) Mafia would have obtained information of Single T at the start of the game - So Godfather, Roleblocker, Strongman. But they wouldn't be able to tell whether or not it was T or TT. So at the very least they would have known that at least one person could potentially claim a non-T role. However, I don't know if I could conceivably believe that every role was non-T. I know statistics and all that stuff, but really, what are the odds that all six roles is non-T? 1.5% of all games. (.5^6) did I do that math right?

So yeah, if I am scum and think that there is a good possibility of there only being 1 T I would be hesitant to claim knowing that such a claim would push the amount to 0 T, which might be hard for town to swallow.

Now the question is do I believe gkeirg and ashersky.

In this case scum would be looking at DRTTTT at the start of the game. They wouldn't know if they had received TTTT or TTT due to the 1-Shot Strongman; Roleblocker, Godfather roles. Worst case scenario they had TTT. For gkeirg to claim mason at that point (before anyone else had claimed) would have required taking the risk of one of those (potentially) 3 non-Ts being a M. Anyone one of them would have blown up his chances. That is a pretty big risk to take at that point in the game. So yeah, I think I believe the claims...

[yuma]

ugh this is really frustrating

[Awaclus]

So now the risk is even further escalated for a reward that was already sitting pretty by just claiming to have Roleblocked someone "safe"

The more the risk escalates, the less risky it actually is to do so.

[yuma]

So now the risk is even further escalated for a reward that was already sitting pretty by just claiming to have Roleblocked someone "safe"

The more the risk escalates, the less risky it actually is to do so.

I am not sure that I agree with that assumption.

But whatever. I am having a conversation with ashersky, not getting completely and totally derailed by you again...

[Awaclus]

But whatever. I am having a conversation with ashersky, not getting completely and totally derailed by you again...

Right, and tomorrow you're going to say that I didn't argue against TA.

[yuma]

and oh fuck it why do I even bother talking this is just going to get a pointless response to lead to more pointlessness.

[Twistedarcher]

Trying to re-read, but getting frustrated by forum slowness. Will check back tomorrow.

If slowness continues, can we maybe get an extension?

[Awaclus]

Trying to re-read, but getting frustrated by forum slowness. Will check back tomorrow.

If slowness continues, can we maybe get an extension?

There's already an extension for Chrome. It doesn't fix the slowness.

[silverspawn]

Trying to re-read, but getting frustrated by forum slowness. Will check back tomorrow.

If slowness continues, can we maybe get an extension?

That's reasonable. Deadline is extended by one day.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 3.3

Awaclus (1): yuma
yuma (1): Awaclus
gkrieg13 (1): chairs
chairs (1): ashersky

Not Voting (4): Twistedarcher, gkrieg13, UmbrageOfSnow, Jimmmmm

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 3 ends at Oct 05, 06 PM forum time. That is in 5 days and 21+ hours.

[yuma]

One question I do have for TA is this:

You said in the early stages of the game you would be have been ok with a mass claim. What specifically about your role made you feel that it would be beneficial for town to claim that early?

[yuma]

And in thinking about the claims more I think the only way I could believe ash/gk are lying is if ta is lying as well. In that case the roll would have likely been DTTTTT. And mafia would have godfather and goonsx2. And wouldnt know difference between TTTTTT and TTTTT. In that case fake claiming mason isn't too risky at all. 50% chance of there being no pr at all and if there is one then only a 10% chance that it would be a mason...

So that said I am more suspicious of the mason claim if ta is lying as well... Don't know if that means I want to lynch him more now or not?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Okay so I'm pretty behind and I couldn't log in when I was trying to this afternoon.  I'm tired now, but I'll try to catch up tomorrow although I've got a lot to do, so it might be Thursday.

Does anyone have anything they specifically want me to comment on/look at?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Glad not too much happened since last night I guess.  I'm reading up now, then going to lunch, then the customary flurry of posts this afternoon (assuming the site isn't down again.)

[ashersky]

I had some time this morning, but couldn't get the page to load either.

I want to see TA's answer still, he's just agreed with yuma's defense, which is what scum does (FWIW).

I see merit in yuma's defense (as in, why didn't he just claim to RB a VT), although to be fair, if he's scum fakeclaiming, he doesn't know if town would lie to try to catch scum in a lie.

Any opportunity or appetite for possible partner assumptions?  TA-Awaclus seem to go well together, for example (if I recall correctly, he wasn't on the yuma train).

[UmbrageOfSnow]

One thing I'm having trouble with is: why wouldn't scum!Yuma buddy me?  I am sometimes over-susceptible to buddying (or I worry that I am anyway) and I've been someone agreeing with him a lot through the game.  Why would scum!Yuma come out of the gate pushing for a lynch on me as an alternative to Awaclus.  I like to think I'm fairly hard to lynch and I've been solidly in his camp, but he pushes me at the start of the day.

I can see that coming from town, but what's the scum motivation there?  How does he know I won't OMGUS, at least subconsciously?

[gkrieg13]

One thing I'm having trouble with is: why wouldn't scum!Yuma buddy me?  I am sometimes over-susceptible to buddying (or I worry that I am anyway) and I've been someone agreeing with him a lot through the game.  Why would scum!Yuma come out of the gate pushing for a lynch on me as an alternative to Awaclus.  I like to think I'm fairly hard to lynch and I've been solidly in his camp, but he pushes me at the start of the day.

I can see that coming from town, but what's the scum motivation there?  How does he know I won't OMGUS, at least subconsciously?

He could be your partner

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So if Yuma is scum, he's scum with at least one of TA or Awaclus I'd think.  And Yuma/Awaclus seems fairly unlikely to me, this could be staged but it really doesn't feel that way to me.

[ashersky]

So if Yuma is scum, he's scum with at least one of TA or Awaclus I'd think.  And Yuma/Awaclus seems fairly unlikely to me, this could be staged but it really doesn't feel that way to me.

Really?  I could definitely see it being staged.

(Well, if yuma had been around the past year or so, then for sure.)

[Twistedarcher]

One question I do have for TA is this:

You said in the early stages of the game you would be have been ok with a mass claim. What specifically about your role made you feel that it would be beneficial for town to claim that early?

Wasn't super related honestly. If I had been cop or something it probably would have changed my default thinking on the matter, but it's not like I saw I was roleblocker and then went, "Oh, crap, better keep this role hidden at all costs!"

[Twistedarcher]

Actually I am kinda thinking that Yuma's most likely scum buddies are Ash/Gkrieg.

[Twistedarcher]

One thing I'm having trouble with is: why wouldn't scum!Yuma buddy me?  I am sometimes over-susceptible to buddying (or I worry that I am anyway) and I've been someone agreeing with him a lot through the game.  Why would scum!Yuma come out of the gate pushing for a lynch on me as an alternative to Awaclus.  I like to think I'm fairly hard to lynch and I've been solidly in his camp, but he pushes me at the start of the day.

I can see that coming from town, but what's the scum motivation there?  How does he know I won't OMGUS, at least subconsciously?

Cuz he could be buddying me instead, there is definitely a case for scum!Yuma buddying me throughout the game.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Vote: Awaclus

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Yuma, why is Jimmmmmmmm being town one of your basic assumptions?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

One thing I'm having trouble with is: why wouldn't scum!Yuma buddy me?  I am sometimes over-susceptible to buddying (or I worry that I am anyway) and I've been someone agreeing with him a lot through the game.  Why would scum!Yuma come out of the gate pushing for a lynch on me as an alternative to Awaclus.  I like to think I'm fairly hard to lynch and I've been solidly in his camp, but he pushes me at the start of the day.

I can see that coming from town, but what's the scum motivation there?  How does he know I won't OMGUS, at least subconsciously?

Cuz he could be buddying me instead, there is definitely a case for scum!Yuma buddying me throughout the game.

I can see that narrative.  What I mean is that at the start of the day he went from not really pushing me to pushing me a lot out of nowhere.  I've been defending him most of the game and he's been taking a lot of pressure.  I don't see the motive for the change from scum!Yuma.  The status quo would have been better for him.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Anyway, I think we should lynch a VT today, and I think Awaclus is miles better than chairs, Yuma, Jimmmmm, or me.  This seems pretty straightforward to me.

[Twistedarcher]

That's pretty nonchalant for a lynch that loses us the game if we're wrong.

[Twistedarcher]

Doing re-reads now. Re-read chairs, there's remarkable little there other than pushing either PPS or TA D1 -- he initially wants to push PPS, doesn't give any information other than "I'm lynching you for information", then says TA is his second choice, then moves to PPS at day end without anymore justification. He definitely seems to be nudging the either-PPS-or-TA position from the background.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Any lynch we make loses us the game if we're wrong.  There are 3 scum left and I believe the all-or-nothing logic on the PR claims and think all the scum claiming VT is much more likely.  If the 3 PRs are scum we lose and I'm happy to take those odds.

So 3/5 of the VTs are scum.  3/4 from my POV.  So there is one town in Awaclus/chairs/Yuma/Jimmmm.  We need to not lynch that town.  I'm not sure who it is, but Awaclus seems the least likely by a lot.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Actually,

Vote: No Lynch

Think about it, either they eliminate the possibility of all 3 scum being PRs, or they eliminate 1 of the 2 town VTs, making it clear to at leas the other and the odds better for everyone else.

[ashersky]

I was thinking no Lynch for awhile actually, but wondered if anyone would raise it.

We are at an even number.

Problem for me is I just die.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I was thinking no Lynch for awhile actually, but wondered if anyone would raise it.

We are at an even number.

Problem for me is I just die.

Think of it as taking one for the team.  I do think you're probably town, and the most likely NK.  But that eliminates the cases where town loses because you and Gkrieg are really ballsy scum.  Which is a benefit.

[ashersky]

I was thinking no Lynch for awhile actually, but wondered if anyone would raise it.

We are at an even number.

Problem for me is I just die.

Think of it as taking one for the team.  I do think you're probably town, and the most likely NK.  But that eliminates the cases where town loses because you and Gkrieg are really ballsy scum.  Which is a benefit.

Except that still sucks for me.

I think the day the scum claim masons thing happen is the day we just concede.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Well that is kind of my thought as well, but we don't stand to lose anything other than 1 voting-day of your input and a bit of your fun.

Which I get is no fun for you.  But I think is the best play in terms of winning.

[ashersky]

Well that is kind of my thought as well, but we don't stand to lose anything other than 1 voting-day of your input and a bit of your fun.

Which I get is no fun for you.  But I think is the best play in terms of winning.

What if they no kill to frame whomever TA blocks?  Or claims to block, if he's lying?

I guess we do the day over again, but with more focus on TA.

I see merit in the idea.  Or we could Lynch scum.

[ashersky]

Ooh, but if TA is honest, he could choose correctly, which would also be good.

[Twistedarcher]

I'd be absolutely fine with no lynch.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

SS, how are you resolving Happily Ever After situations?

(Did we already ask this at some point?  I can't remember.

[Twistedarcher]

• If the game stalls and neither side is willing to lynch or nightkill a player, mafia will be forced to act.

[yuma]

One thing I'm having trouble with is: why wouldn't scum!Yuma buddy me?  I am sometimes over-susceptible to buddying (or I worry that I am anyway) and I've been someone agreeing with him a lot through the game.  Why would scum!Yuma come out of the gate pushing for a lynch on me as an alternative to Awaclus.  I like to think I'm fairly hard to lynch and I've been solidly in his camp, but he pushes me at the start of the day.

I can see that coming from town, but what's the scum motivation there?  How does he know I won't OMGUS, at least subconsciously?

I wouldn't say I was pushing for your lynch, but rather that going into Night I remembered some things that raised flags about you and I wanted to 1. make sure I put them out there before I forgot about them and 2. made sure that they were out there for others to see in the chance that I was the lynch today (which I felt had a slightly higher probability than usual given the accidental hammer situation I thought people might want to lynch me more than it seems they actually do... thank goodness) so that others could potentially go back and read it and maybe use it to find scum the next day, if there was a next day. But I am not even sure that you would be my number two option at this point.... I really don't know who that would be to be honest...

[ashersky]

Yuma, thoughts on no lynch?

[yuma]

One question I do have for TA is this:

You said in the early stages of the game you would be have been ok with a mass claim. What specifically about your role made you feel that it would be beneficial for town to claim that early?

Wasn't super related honestly. If I had been cop or something it probably would have changed my default thinking on the matter, but it's not like I saw I was roleblocker and then went, "Oh, crap, better keep this role hidden at all costs!"

It isn't a super big point but this is the reaction I was expecting from a town. I thought that mafia would have come up with a more elaborate explanation... the "over explanation when lying" phenomena.... I don't really know why I think that, but I do. So this reads townier to me.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

One thing I'm having trouble with is: why wouldn't scum!Yuma buddy me?  I am sometimes over-susceptible to buddying (or I worry that I am anyway) and I've been someone agreeing with him a lot through the game.  Why would scum!Yuma come out of the gate pushing for a lynch on me as an alternative to Awaclus.  I like to think I'm fairly hard to lynch and I've been solidly in his camp, but he pushes me at the start of the day.

I can see that coming from town, but what's the scum motivation there?  How does he know I won't OMGUS, at least subconsciously?

The point is, I'd been defending you.  Scum!Yuma is risking alienating a defender for no benefit, and without any pressure to do so.  You know town tend to start suspecting people who suspect them.

So that's why I have serious doubts about the scum!Yuma theory and would much prefer to lynch Awaclus.

I wouldn't say I was pushing for your lynch, but rather that going into Night I remembered some things that raised flags about you and I wanted to 1. make sure I put them out there before I forgot about them and 2. made sure that they were out there for others to see in the chance that I was the lynch today (which I felt had a slightly higher probability than usual given the accidental hammer situation I thought people might want to lynch me more than it seems they actually do... thank goodness) so that others could potentially go back and read it and maybe use it to find scum the next day, if there was a next day. But I am not even sure that you would be my number two option at this point.... I really don't know who that would be to be honest...

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Well that's a weird way for that to happen...

One thing I'm having trouble with is: why wouldn't scum!Yuma buddy me?  I am sometimes over-susceptible to buddying (or I worry that I am anyway) and I've been someone agreeing with him a lot through the game.  Why would scum!Yuma come out of the gate pushing for a lynch on me as an alternative to Awaclus.  I like to think I'm fairly hard to lynch and I've been solidly in his camp, but he pushes me at the start of the day.

I can see that coming from town, but what's the scum motivation there?  How does he know I won't OMGUS, at least subconsciously?

I wouldn't say I was pushing for your lynch, but rather that going into Night I remembered some things that raised flags about you and I wanted to 1. make sure I put them out there before I forgot about them and 2. made sure that they were out there for others to see in the chance that I was the lynch today (which I felt had a slightly higher probability than usual given the accidental hammer situation I thought people might want to lynch me more than it seems they actually do... thank goodness) so that others could potentially go back and read it and maybe use it to find scum the next day, if there was a next day. But I am not even sure that you would be my number two option at this point.... I really don't know who that would be to be honest...

The point is, I'd been defending you.  Scum!Yuma is risking alienating a defender for no benefit, and without any pressure to do so.  You know town tend to start suspecting people who suspect them.

So that's why I have serious doubts about the scum!Yuma theory and would much prefer to lynch Awaclus.

[yuma]

Yuma, why is Jimmmmmmmm being town one of your basic assumptions?

It was an assumption I used in trying to analyze the Hydrad kill because Jimmmmm claimed to be VT (as I did) and I thought that might have factored into why hydrad was killed. But that whole analysis ended up not being as useful as I thought.

So he is still on the table for me, but kinda off to the side. i still have a hard time seeing scum!Jimmmm posting sooooo little.

[ashersky]

Yuma, why is Jimmmmmmmm being town one of your basic assumptions?

It was an assumption I used in trying to analyze the Hydrad kill because Jimmmmm claimed to be VT (as I did) and I thought that might have factored into why hydrad was killed. But that whole analysis ended up not being as useful as I thought.

So he is still on the table for me, but kinda off to the side. i still have a hard time seeing scum!Jimmmm posting sooooo little.

Assuming the Hydrad kill was PR hunting, you could remove the claimed VTs from scum's kill pool, but you can't remove them from the possible scum pool.

So no, that line of thinking wasn't useful.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I can believe Jimmmmm posting so little as either alignment.  I'm not particularly scumreading him, but if all the scum are in the VTs, I don't think he's more likely than average to be the other VT.

[yuma]

Ooh, but if TA is honest, he could choose correctly, which would also be good.

If the masons and TA are honest doesn't scum just have a full strongman that will the person guaranteed to perform the kill?

[Twistedarcher]

Yuma, why is Jimmmmmmmm being town one of your basic assumptions?

It was an assumption I used in trying to analyze the Hydrad kill because Jimmmmm claimed to be VT (as I did) and I thought that might have factored into why hydrad was killed. But that whole analysis ended up not being as useful as I thought.

So he is still on the table for me, but kinda off to the side. i still have a hard time seeing scum!Jimmmm posting sooooo little.

Assuming the Hydrad kill was PR hunting, you could remove the claimed VTs from scum's kill pool, but you can't remove them from the possible scum pool.

So no, that line of thinking wasn't useful.

I do think this counts as a point against UoS -- wouldn't scum want to kill unclaimed town member UoS over unclaimed town member Hydrad, ESPECIALLY when UoS came out early as being against a massclaim?

[yuma]

Yuma, why is Jimmmmmmmm being town one of your basic assumptions?

It was an assumption I used in trying to analyze the Hydrad kill because Jimmmmm claimed to be VT (as I did) and I thought that might have factored into why hydrad was killed. But that whole analysis ended up not being as useful as I thought.

So he is still on the table for me, but kinda off to the side. i still have a hard time seeing scum!Jimmmm posting sooooo little.

Assuming the Hydrad kill was PR hunting, you could remove the claimed VTs from scum's kill pool, but you can't remove them from the possible scum pool.

So no, that line of thinking wasn't useful.

Right yes, I was trying to see if there was a plausible scenario where Jimmmm wasn't scum and I wasn't scum and because of claims the only person who wasn't scum and wasn't a claimed VT or Mason was Hydrad and mafia knew that and decided to kill him for that reason. But it didn't work out because there were 5 seats and only 3 mafia.... Does that make sense?

It almost made sense...

[Twistedarcher]

Ooh, but if TA is honest, he could choose correctly, which would also be good.

If the masons and TA are honest doesn't scum just have a full strongman that will the person guaranteed to perform the kill?

Agree, and this reads as insincere to me - most due to the "ooh". It screams to me like "I'm thinking this through RIGHT NOW, and I had this realization RIGHT NOW, so I'm town guys!"

[yuma]

Yuma, thoughts on no lynch?

No-lynching is boring and I dislike it, but if it actually helps win the game I am up for it.

So right now we are at 8 alive, 5 needed to lynch... all 5 of those must be town or mafia busses

If we no lynch and mafia NKs we have... 7 alive, 4 needed to lynch and still all 5 votes must be mafia or mafia busses.

So I am not sure I see the benefit and would rather save the potential no-lynch for a later day. Would it be more useful on a later day? Assuming we get to a later day?

[yuma]

Ooh, but if TA is honest, he could choose correctly, which would also be good.

If the masons and TA are honest doesn't scum just have a full strongman that will the person guaranteed to perform the kill?

Agree, and this reads as insincere to me - most due to the "ooh". It screams to me like "I'm thinking this through RIGHT NOW, and I had this realization RIGHT NOW, so I'm town guys!"

So I am not supposed to point out blatantly obvious flaws when someone is trying to come up with pro-cons to plans?

WTF?

[yuma]

oh, are you talking about ashersky...

you really want to lynch those mason guys?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Yuma, why is Jimmmmmmmm being town one of your basic assumptions?

It was an assumption I used in trying to analyze the Hydrad kill because Jimmmmm claimed to be VT (as I did) and I thought that might have factored into why hydrad was killed. But that whole analysis ended up not being as useful as I thought.

So he is still on the table for me, but kinda off to the side. i still have a hard time seeing scum!Jimmmm posting sooooo little.

Assuming the Hydrad kill was PR hunting, you could remove the claimed VTs from scum's kill pool, but you can't remove them from the possible scum pool.

So no, that line of thinking wasn't useful.

I do think this counts as a point against UoS -- wouldn't scum want to kill unclaimed town member UoS over unclaimed town member Hydrad, ESPECIALLY when UoS came out early as being against a massclaim?

This is actually a good argument for Awaclus being town.  I've been pushing him hard, if he's the mislynch bait, they wouldn't want to kill me.  I looked at Hydrad's posts and didn't see any doctor crumbs, did anyone else see any?

Also, I know I was missing some things in the early game because I read that part fast catching up, but when did people first become sure that Ash was the other Mason?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Then again, Hydrad wanted to lynch Awaclus too.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Yuma, thoughts on no lynch?

No-lynching is boring and I dislike it, but if it actually helps win the game I am up for it.

So right now we are at 8 alive, 5 needed to lynch... all 5 of those must be town or mafia busses

If we no lynch and mafia NKs we have... 7 alive, 4 needed to lynch and still all 5 votes must be mafia or mafia busses.

So I am not sure I see the benefit and would rather save the potential no-lynch for a later day. Would it be more useful on a later day? Assuming we get to a later day?

It's more useful now than later.  If they have full strongman, we aren't stopping any kills anyway.  Why be at an unnessary disadvantage for any LYLO/MYLO vote?

[Twistedarcher]

Yuma, why is Jimmmmmmmm being town one of your basic assumptions?

It was an assumption I used in trying to analyze the Hydrad kill because Jimmmmm claimed to be VT (as I did) and I thought that might have factored into why hydrad was killed. But that whole analysis ended up not being as useful as I thought.

So he is still on the table for me, but kinda off to the side. i still have a hard time seeing scum!Jimmmm posting sooooo little.

Assuming the Hydrad kill was PR hunting, you could remove the claimed VTs from scum's kill pool, but you can't remove them from the possible scum pool.

So no, that line of thinking wasn't useful.

I do think this counts as a point against UoS -- wouldn't scum want to kill unclaimed town member UoS over unclaimed town member Hydrad, ESPECIALLY when UoS came out early as being against a massclaim?

This is actually a good argument for Awaclus being town.  I've been pushing him hard, if he's the mislynch bait, they wouldn't want to kill me.  I looked at Hydrad's posts and didn't see any doctor crumbs, did anyone else see any?

Also, I know I was missing some things in the early game because I read that part fast catching up, but when did people first become sure that Ash was the other Mason?

WW was pretty sure before he died. I wasn't really sure until Gkrieg put him last on the claim order.

[Twistedarcher]

Yuma, why is Jimmmmmmmm being town one of your basic assumptions?

It was an assumption I used in trying to analyze the Hydrad kill because Jimmmmm claimed to be VT (as I did) and I thought that might have factored into why hydrad was killed. But that whole analysis ended up not being as useful as I thought.

So he is still on the table for me, but kinda off to the side. i still have a hard time seeing scum!Jimmmm posting sooooo little.

Assuming the Hydrad kill was PR hunting, you could remove the claimed VTs from scum's kill pool, but you can't remove them from the possible scum pool.

So no, that line of thinking wasn't useful.

I do think this counts as a point against UoS -- wouldn't scum want to kill unclaimed town member UoS over unclaimed town member Hydrad, ESPECIALLY when UoS came out early as being against a massclaim?

This is actually a good argument for Awaclus being town.  I've been pushing him hard, if he's the mislynch bait, they wouldn't want to kill me.  I looked at Hydrad's posts and didn't see any doctor crumbs, did anyone else see any?

I don't really agree with this, but I also think at this point I'd rather lynch you than Awaclus out of the VTs.

[yuma]

Also, I know I was missing some things in the early game because I read that part fast catching up, but when did people first become sure that Ash was the other Mason?

Not sure if this is genuine or a forced confusion sort of thing, but I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt as you were playing catch-up... but I think at least one player in a mafia team would have seen what I saw:

He was one of a handful of people that gkeirg didn't vote for and then he had his as townie a couple of times during giving reads. Wasn't 100% but was my best bet.

And then when ash responded as strongly as he did to WW's Mason plan it became super obvious.

[yuma]

Yuma, thoughts on no lynch?

No-lynching is boring and I dislike it, but if it actually helps win the game I am up for it.

So right now we are at 8 alive, 5 needed to lynch... all 5 of those must be town or mafia busses

If we no lynch and mafia NKs we have... 7 alive, 4 needed to lynch and still all 5 votes must be mafia or mafia busses.

So I am not sure I see the benefit and would rather save the potential no-lynch for a later day. Would it be more useful on a later day? Assuming we get to a later day?

It's more useful now than later.  If they have full strongman, we aren't stopping any kills anyway.  Why be at an unnessary disadvantage for any LYLO/MYLO vote?

But what if we lynch the Strongman between now and when we no-lynch...? And if TA is telling the truth all of a sudden that becomes pretty handy.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Which day did it become obvious due to responses as far as you're concerned?

[yuma]

Which day did it become obvious due to responses as far as you're concerned?

I thought by the end of day2 it should have been pretty obvious to mafia, especially because they would be able to PoE three players (themselves) from the equation.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Yuma, thoughts on no lynch?

No-lynching is boring and I dislike it, but if it actually helps win the game I am up for it.

So right now we are at 8 alive, 5 needed to lynch... all 5 of those must be town or mafia busses

If we no lynch and mafia NKs we have... 7 alive, 4 needed to lynch and still all 5 votes must be mafia or mafia busses.

So I am not sure I see the benefit and would rather save the potential no-lynch for a later day. Would it be more useful on a later day? Assuming we get to a later day?

It's more useful now than later.  If they have full strongman, we aren't stopping any kills anyway.  Why be at an unnessary disadvantage for any LYLO/MYLO vote?

But what if we lynch the Strongman between now and when we no-lynch...? And if TA is telling the truth all of a sudden that becomes pretty handy.

If we lynch the strongman and TA is telling the truth, why don't they kill TA?  His odds of guessing not just a scum, but the scum who they think he's less likely to guess are pretty slim.  And having fewer mislynch odds in MYLO/LYLO is pretty helpful.  Mathematically you're just wrong.  Do you think TA is that much better than random at guessing the second-most obvious scum?

And that only matters if we lynch the strongman today anyway.

[yuma]

duh... good point... Unless we lynch the strongman and they try to kill TA but TA blocks them.

{edge cased}

[yuma]

I guess I don't see the benefit of doing a no-lynch right now?

I see it as a numbers thing. Right now we need all 5 townies to agree. Tomorrow we need all 4 townies to agree. Is one better than the other? Especially when the one that will die is likely to be a mason.

I guess the only benefit will be to confirm that the masons aren't lying (unless scum decide to be crazy and shoot elsewhere for confusion or that the masons are actually lying) so I dont' know if that is an actual benefit.

If there is something I am missing please let me know.

[ashersky]

duh... good point... Unless we lynch the strongman and they try to kill TA but TA blocks them.

{edge cased}

From my perspective, all this hinges on TA not lying.  Which, well, feels unsafe.

[Twistedarcher]

I guess I don't see the benefit of doing a no-lynch right now?

I see it as a numbers thing. Right now we need all 5 townies to agree. Tomorrow we need all 4 townies to agree. Is one better than the other? Especially when the one that will die is likely to be a mason.

I guess the only benefit will be to confirm that the masons aren't lying (unless scum decide to be crazy and shoot elsewhere for confusion or that the masons are actually lying) so I dont' know if that is an actual benefit.

If there is something I am missing please let me know.

If we're deciding that we're not lynching the masons at all in the next two lynches, then I think we're better lynching today.

If the masons are on the table, I think we're better no-lynching today.

[yuma]

I am kinda at the point where I feel more comfortable betting the game (or what % of chance we have at this point) on the masons being honest than lynching them.

The one caveat is if you turn up scum and they are still alive... That might change things.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

3/8 scum is harder to guess accurately than 3/7 scum.  That's the mathematical advantage.

[ashersky]

3/8 scum is harder to guess accurately than 3/7 scum.  That's the mathematical advantage.

It's 3/7 now, though, if TA is town.

[yuma]

3/8 scum is harder to guess accurately than 3/7 scum.  That's the mathematical advantage.

Right but if we are working under the assumption that the masons are telling the truth it really isn't 3/8 it is 3/5 with 2 townies to help and if a mason is killed during the night we will still be working with 3/5 but with only 1 townie to help.

+ potentially using the mathematical advantage at a time where it wouldn't be the masons that mafia is eliminating at night, but someone that is a question mark...

[UmbrageOfSnow]

And isn't it to some benefit to take the "if TA is town" or "if Ash is town" modifiers off things?  I think it is.

[yuma]

sorry, used dumb numbers up above, but hopefully you know what i am saying

[Twistedarcher]

3/8 scum is harder to guess accurately than 3/7 scum.  That's the mathematical advantage.

Right, but if we assume the masons are town, then we assume one of them gets killed in the night, then we're still looking at 3/5 (or 3/6, if you don't believe me, but I'm not getting NK'd regardless I'm sure.)

PPE: Yuma agrees

[Twistedarcher]

And isn't it to some benefit to take the "if TA is town" or "if Ash is town" modifiers off things?  I think it is.

What do you mean, the whole game is basically "if Ash is town" or "if TA is town", why would we take those as givens when that's exactly what we're trying to find out.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

And isn't it to some benefit to take the "if TA is town" or "if Ash is town" modifiers off things?  I think it is.

What do you mean, the whole game is basically "if Ash is town" or "if TA is town", why would we take those as givens when that's exactly what we're trying to find out.

Today is the day when everyone agrees with me while vehemently disagreeing with me.  If you or Ash dies, we remove the edgecases where you guys are scum fakeclaiming.  The argument for lynching is that we take those as a given.

[ashersky]

Well, we can lynch today even if we don't believe TA.

[yuma]

And isn't it to some benefit to take the "if TA is town" or "if Ash is town" modifiers off things?  I think it is.

What do you mean, the whole game is basically "if Ash is town" or "if TA is town", why would we take those as givens when that's exactly what we're trying to find out.

Today is the day when everyone agrees with me while vehemently disagreeing with me.  If you or Ash dies, we remove the edgecases where you guys are scum fakeclaiming.  The argument for lynching is that we take those as a given.

I think I am comfortable taking having the masons as a given. Not so much TA. But regardless I think we want to lynch VT anyways. If we do end up lynching TA and he is scum and if the masons are still alive then it might be worth reanalyzing that given. But that is a lot of "ifs" and "ands"

So no I don't think we should no-lynch today. Plus no-lynching is boring.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

no-lynching is boring.

This is the only part of your argument that makes sense to me.

[yuma]

no-lynching is boring.

This is the only part of your argument that makes sense to me.

Is it that you don't understand what I am saying or that you disagree with it?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

no-lynching is boring.

This is the only part of your argument that makes sense to me.

Is it that you don't understand what I am saying or that you disagree with it?

I disagree.

[gkrieg13]

I'm against no-lynch.  It has been nice to have ash's reads to go off of.  It would be much harder for me to figure out who is town without that.  I think we should lynch a VT, so that's yuma, Jimmmm, chairs, awaclus, and UoS.  I think right now, I'm leaning chairs or UoS. 

@Ash, how do you feel about chairs now?

@chairs, how do you feel about me and ash now?

@UoS, how do you feel about chairs?

@Jimmmm, how do you feel about anybody, but specifically chairs, UoS and awaclus?

PPE: Why do you disagree?

[yuma]

I disagree.

ok. If enough people disagree with me, I will go along with a no-lynch and I hope you will do the same if it goes the other way.

We kinda need to hear from others and not let us get too bogged down in this no-lynch theoretics talk.

On that note, you were voting for awaclus but in between the theoretics talk you mentioned that you were moving toward TA. I missed the reasoning.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

My reasons for disagreeing are pretty well laid out, I think I'm going in circles.

Why am I one of your top lynch choices, Gkrieg?

@Yuma, of course I'd go along with a lynch if no one wants to no-lynch.  You're just all wrong again.

I never said I'm moving towards TA, I'm definitely not.  If we lynch, we should lynch a VT and Awaclus is my preferred lynch.  The Hydrad kill gives me pause though.

Chairs post in a moment, I'm neutral on him, but I'll look through his ISO and give it some more thought.

[ashersky]

@Ash, how do you feel about chairs now?

Same as last night.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Wow, I was going to swap to PPS, and then the last couple pages happened and now I'm again fine with WW.

chairs, what was it that changed your opinion on WW?

It's been a long time, but could you go back and reread and comment on this?

[gkrieg13]

My reasons for disagreeing are pretty well laid out, I think I'm going in circles.

Why am I one of your top lynch choices, Gkrieg?

@Yuma, of course I'd go along with a lynch if no one wants to no-lynch.  You're just all wrong again.

I never said I'm moving towards TA, I'm definitely not.  If we lynch, we should lynch a VT and Awaclus is my preferred lynch.  The Hydrad kill gives me pause though.

Chairs post in a moment, I'm neutral on him, but I'll look through his ISO and give it some more thought.

Part of it is the no-lynch.  I don't think it gives us much information is ash is killed before we vote.  I understand your reasoning, but with 8 people it is nice to have 2 ICs to help find scum than 1 IC and a little bit of information.  Your posts lately have been giving me a gut scum read on you as well. 

PPE:  ok.  I was leaning his way anyway.  I'll wait to vote in case I'm wrong.  Although a three person quick hammer would be difficult to pull off
PPE:  who was that directed to: UoS?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

THat was directed to chairs.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

ugh forget it, we're not getting through this Day meaningfully unless we just vote: awaclus, that much is clear.

So this post is the thing that really jumps out at me as scummy from chairs.  His push on gkrieg at the start of today looked that way a bit too, but seems a bit weird/brazen coming from scum!chairs.

So yeah, I'm pretty neutral on chairs.  Why is he one of your top choices, Gkrieg?

[chairs]

I'm against no-lynch.  It has been nice to have ash's reads to go off of.  It would be much harder for me to figure out who is town without that.  I think we should lynch a VT, so that's yuma, Jimmmm, chairs, awaclus, and UoS.  I think right now, I'm leaning chairs or UoS. 

@Ash, how do you feel about chairs now?

@chairs, how do you feel about me and ash now?

@UoS, how do you feel about chairs?

@Jimmmm, how do you feel about anybody, but specifically chairs, UoS and awaclus?

PPE: Why do you disagree?

I still think if anybody, ever, is going to fakeclaim masons in forum Mafia here, it'll be ashersky.


Unrelated to your quote, but I'm only in favor of a no lynch if it helps reduce the lynch pool, and I don't think it does that in this situation in any meaningful way, since we're going to lynch out of the VTs regardless and scum won't shoot there.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So you think Ash would be the one to fakeclaim Masons, and he clearly was pushing gkrieg to claim on Day 1, but you don't think we gain anything by seeing a Mason get NKed?

[chairs]

So you think Ash would be the one to fakeclaim Masons, and he clearly was pushing gkrieg to claim on Day 1, but you don't think we gain anything by seeing a Mason get NKed?

You think a mason will be NK'd today? I don't.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I thought the argument against no lynching was that "obviously" they'd kill Ash so there was no point.

If they won't then there's even more point!

[yuma]

so our masons want to lynch chairs? but I have yet to see any reason why they want to lynch chairs... or am I misreading this?

[Twistedarcher]

Masons do you have day chat?

[gkrieg13]

Masons do you have day chat?

No

[yuma]

Scratch the previous posts, I forgot to factor in my own letter in addition to the doctor.

somehow I missed this...

[ashersky]

Scratch the previous posts, I forgot to factor in my own letter in addition to the doctor.

somehow I missed this...

Scumslip (by TA).  Or, if you prefer, a mistake made because he's lying.

[ashersky]

so our masons want to lynch chairs? but I have yet to see any reason why they want to lynch chairs... or am I misreading this?

Misreading, at this time.  Not o say we don't want to lynch him, either. 

[ashersky]

So you think Ash would be the one to fakeclaim Masons, and he clearly was pushing gkrieg to claim on Day 1, but you don't think we gain anything by seeing a Mason get NKed?

You misunderstand his good point.

We no lynch with 1 scum left in 4 alive because scum kills off a potential mislynch and that helps remaining down by reducing the odds of a mislynch.

Here, chairs is saying we have a lynch pool of VTs today and a no lynch doesn't change that because all the VTs will survive the night.  So the no lynch doesn't change anything.

[yuma]

If we lynch, we should lynch a VT and Awaclus is my preferred lynch. The Hydrad kill gives me pause though.

Maybe we should go through and analyze possibilities of why everyone wasn't killed (under the assumption that they aren't scum)?

gkeirg - would confirm him as a mason and make the other mason an IC, wanted to leave door open that masons might be lying and maybe get us to lynch them instead?
ashersky - same as above as I still think mafia would have realized who the other mason was
Jimmmmmm - could be a mislynch target for lurking; claimed VT early
yuma - mislynch target for accidentally hammering WW, claimed VT early; dead townie!WW wanted to lynch him
_______________
chairs - a possible mislynch target for semi-lurking
TA - a possible mislynch target for ??: dead!pps and dead!faust wanted to lynch him
UoS - a possible mislynch target for ??: was kinda lurky, but that was more VLA stuff, I think most people expected he would be back to heavy posting once he was able
Awaclus - possible mislynch target for pressure from myself and a couple other people were really wanting to lynch him
Hydrad - possible mislynch target for ??

I separated the top four because they were people that scum would have removed from the list for PR hunting purposes. Once that occurred the list became the other 4 + hydrad.

Awaclus I feel would not have been a NK, if he were town, because scum could see him as a viable mislynch the next day
TA to a slight extent as well due to the PPS and faust reads from before (but remembering dead people reads 1. doesn't happen that often and 2. are more often wrong than they are right.

So that leaves chairs--lurky--and UoS--lurky but with the implications that he wouldn't be and Hydrad who was a kind of middle of the pack sort of person, wasn't really a mislynch target.

So if, in this hypothetical world where scum is an existential player, I feel that scum probably had their NK pool down to UoS/chairs/hydrad.

Given that information I feel that because hydrad was selected instead of one of UoS/chairs it makes them more likely to be scum. Doesn't mean that they are or mean that others (TA/Awaclus/Jimmmm) aren't.

So I think at this point I would put UoS and chairs above Jimmmm/TA partially because of this but for other reasons as well (I think I believe TA's claim, Jimmmmm lurking) with Jimmmmm probably falling before TA.

But I still vastly prefer Awaclus.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So you think Ash would be the one to fakeclaim Masons, and he clearly was pushing gkrieg to claim on Day 1, but you don't think we gain anything by seeing a Mason get NKed?

You misunderstand his good point.

We no lynch with 1 scum left in 4 alive because scum kills off a potential mislynch and that helps remaining down by reducing the odds of a mislynch.

Here, chairs is saying we have a lynch pool of VTs today and a no lynch doesn't change that because all the VTs will survive the night.  So the no lynch doesn't change anything.

I understand that logic, except chairs doesn't think all the VTs will survive the night, which makes it valuable.  Unless he means TA will die, and again, that has value.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Thanks Yuma.  I didn't have time to do that, and it helps.

@Gkrieg: is that logic related to your preferences?

I'm going to try to look at me, TA, chairs, and Hydrad's reads later today.  It could be that Hydrad's reads were better, so how they're different could matter.  If someone gets to this before me, I will not be sad, but I'll get to it eventually.

[yuma]

I'm going to try to look at me, TA, chairs, and Hydrad's reads later today.  It could be that Hydrad's reads were better, so how they're different could matter.  If someone gets to this before me, I will not be sad, but I'll get to it eventually.

In my experience as scum this tends to be the last point that scum use to make a NK compared to PR hunting and "mislynchability". It can be a factor, but it is of such low priority that it will have very little bearing on how I view the NK analysis... Mostly because it is just so WIFOM and speculative. For starters town can change reads really easily. And then there is the whole killing someone that really wanted to lynch you problem, just paints a nice target on your back... unless scum do it to someone else to set them up. Compared to the other factors it is just huge bag of worms.

So I mean you can certainly do it, and maybe you will find something worthwhile, but for me personally, it just isn't something that I am going to weigh very heavily at all.

[Jimmmmm]

Checking in.

Vote: TA seems best at this stage. Would also lynch UOS or chairs.

[yuma]

Checking in.

Vote: TA seems best at this stage. Would also lynch UOS or chairs.

Why? Also why and why?

[chairs]

So you think Ash would be the one to fakeclaim Masons, and he clearly was pushing gkrieg to claim on Day 1, but you don't think we gain anything by seeing a Mason get NKed?

You misunderstand his good point.

We no lynch with 1 scum left in 4 alive because scum kills off a potential mislynch and that helps remaining down by reducing the odds of a mislynch.

Here, chairs is saying we have a lynch pool of VTs today and a no lynch doesn't change that because all the VTs will survive the night.  So the no lynch doesn't change anything.

I understand that logic, except chairs doesn't think all the VTs will survive the night, which makes it valuable.  Unless he means TA will die, and again, that has value.

See, I actually think TA dying doesn't gain us any value. It still provides the possibility that the Masons are scum (again, no offence guys, but if anybody was gonna fakeclaim that it'd be you). It still leaves all the VTs open as possible third scum.

Thanks Yuma.  I didn't have time to do that, and it helps.

@Gkrieg: is that logic related to your preferences?

I'm going to try to look at me, TA, chairs, and Hydrad's reads later today.  It could be that Hydrad's reads were better, so how they're different could matter.  If someone gets to this before me, I will not be sad, but I'll get to it eventually.

I'm excited to see what you come up with here.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 3.4

Awaclus (1): yuma
yuma (1): Awaclus
Twistedarcher (1): Jimmmmm
gkrieg13 (1): chairs
chairs (1): ashersky

Not Voting (2): Twistedarcher, gkrieg13

No-Lynch (1): UmbrageOfSnow

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 3 ends at Oct 05, 06 PM forum time. That is in 4 days and 3+ hours.

[yuma]

Awaclus (1):[/b] yuma
yuma (1): Awaclus
Twistedarcher (1): Jimmmmm
gkrieg13 (1): chairs
chairs (1): ashersky

K... here is something maybe worth thinking about:

For everyone voting, if the person you are voting for is scum, who do you think are the two other players that are most likely to be partners. Doesn't necessarily mean you are calling a scumteam, but I have found it to be enlightening at times... and at other times completely worthless depending on the circumstances...

So for me if Awaclus is scum who do I think his partners most likely are?

UoS voted for him Day1, as did Jimmmm. Both votes were L-4 or 5ish...

UoS also voted for him day2, early on just after me. chairs also voted for him with that kinda unusual vote, that put him to L-3. TA also voted him putting him at L-2 and kept it there even when WW put him to L-1. Significantly it was UoS who left that wagon and then went over to WW instead.

And then UoS also voted for him Day3 but again left shortly after to no lynch, but based off his posts I think he would most want to lynch him today...

Interestingly the only two players who haven't voted for Awaclus are the two masons... Why you guys no-likey the awaclus lynch? So if they weren't claimed masons and if I weren't believing that claim, I might think they would be the most likely partners.

But otherwise, UoS sticks out to me. His leaving when he was at L-1 seems critical, even though UoS has said he wanted to lynch him earlier and today... right now those haven't really been critical moments.

The chairs vote seemed weird enough that I don't really think it was bussing. So I think he is probably out.

TA and Jimmmm are kinda a toss up at this point but I think I would pick Jimmmmm over TA due to TA's vote moving him to L-2. Actually that puts TA much less likely as he kept that vote through WW's L-1 (although leaving at that moment could have been deemed risky, but there was a lot going around at that time).

So I would say Awaclus' most likely partners are UoS and Jimmmmm... either that or ash and gkierg...

[yuma]

I will admit that I thought there would be more people that would be more likely to be Awaclus' partner going in. But really the only one that stands out is UoS. I thought it would be hard to eliminate people instead of hard to add them in....

[yuma]

And I guess vote: no lynch as it looks like we are just going to time out anyways at this rate...

[gkrieg13]

Sorry I don't have my computer right now. I'll look at this more tomorrow

[gkrieg13]

ok here is chairs: (Disclaimer, I did this in print page mode to do an ISO by ctrl+f so I didn't find all of the quotes to post.)

he only has 34 posts.  This will be quick then. 

Based on yuma's writeup, we need the second mason to claim or we need to absolutely lynch gkrieg or faust today.

I obviously don't like this.  Especially first day. 

I'll be honest, I'm voting you for information.

This is the only information he gives for voting thus far.

He kinda goes all over the place with his reads.  He says the scummiest players are WW, Awaclus, Faust, pps, TA. on D1

Then comes out D2 saying this

I'm actually feeling mild town on Awaclus, because this feels more like town!Awaclus than scum!Awaclus.

He then votes for Awaclus when his playstyle is being annoying.

He then votes for me and talks more about the masons.

So you think Ash would be the one to fakeclaim Masons, and he clearly was pushing gkrieg to claim on Day 1, but you don't think we gain anything by seeing a Mason get NKed?

You misunderstand his good point.

We no lynch with 1 scum left in 4 alive because scum kills off a potential mislynch and that helps remaining down by reducing the odds of a mislynch.

Here, chairs is saying we have a lynch pool of VTs today and a no lynch doesn't change that because all the VTs will survive the night.  So the no lynch doesn't change anything.

I understand that logic, except chairs doesn't think all the VTs will survive the night, which makes it valuable.  Unless he means TA will die, and again, that has value.

See, I actually think TA dying doesn't gain us any value. It still provides the possibility that the Masons are scum (again, no offence guys, but if anybody was gonna fakeclaim that it'd be you). It still leaves all the VTs open as possible third scum.

Thanks Yuma.  I didn't have time to do that, and it helps.

@Gkrieg: is that logic related to your preferences?

I'm going to try to look at me, TA, chairs, and Hydrad's reads later today.  It could be that Hydrad's reads were better, so how they're different could matter.  If someone gets to this before me, I will not be sad, but I'll get to it eventually.

I'm excited to see what you come up with here.

Then he defends lynching TA.

So my summary of this is he is my top lynch candidate until I read TA tomorrow.  His possible partners are TA, Awaclus, Jimmmmm (he never mentioned anything about him), UoS (same as Jimmmm).  Yuma doesn't seem as likely to me.  I think the strongest partner interactions are TA and Awaclus though.

Other strong reason is that ash is voting for him.

vote: chairs

[yuma]

I'll be honest. If that didn't come from someone I think is likely a Mason I would probably move my vote over to gkrieg. guess that shows that scummy≠mafia. or does it?

It seems like the whole basis of the case is that chairs isn't quite as willing to go with the idea that the masons are confirmed town... which, honestly I am kinda starting to feel a little bit more and more as this day goes on.

yeah, I am completely and totally on board with the no-lynch idea at this point. I want to force the mafia to make a decision.

[yuma]

also... I would suggest an unvote in the event that you are wrong it would be really silly to lose to a triple hammer (which while unlikely isn't out of the realm of possibility)

especially as I think we should no lynch today

[Jimmmmm]

especially as I think we should no lynch today

With 8 people, I agree.

Vote: no lynch

[Awaclus]

I'll just chime in to say that I've been reading along and thinking about things even though I haven't had much to say yet. I'm fine with no lynch, and if we do lynch someone, yuma > chairs > other VTs. I think TA might be scum too, but he might get killed if he's not, so I don't want to lynch him yet.

[yuma]

I'll just chime in to say that I've been reading along and thinking about things even though I haven't had much to say yet. I'm fine with no lynch, and if we do lynch someone, yuma > chairs > other VTs. I think TA might be scum too, but he might get killed if he's not, so I don't want to lynch him yet.

Then vote no lynch. Saying you are fine with it means squat. And saying you are thinking about stuff means even less.

[yuma]

especially as I think we should no lynch today

With 8 people, I agree.

Vote: no lynch

Great, but in the meantime, why did you want to lynch TA?

[chairs]

vote: no lynch.

Maybe I'll be wrong and Mafia will lynch someone that makes a difference to our thinking tomorrow.

[chairs]

kill, rather.

[Awaclus]

I'll just chime in to say that I've been reading along and thinking about things even though I haven't had much to say yet. I'm fine with no lynch, and if we do lynch someone, yuma > chairs > other VTs. I think TA might be scum too, but he might get killed if he's not, so I don't want to lynch him yet.

Then vote no lynch. Saying you are fine with it means squat. And saying you are thinking about stuff means even less.

I also considered just not posting that post, but I thought it would be better to express that I'm still playing this game since I hadn't posted anything in a while.

[yuma]

I'm still playing this game ... I hadn't posted anything

Huh? That is a weird way to play the game that completely revolves around posting.

Would be like trying to play dominion but never drawing any cards.

[chairs]

I'm still playing this game ... I hadn't posted anything

Huh? That is a weird way to play the game that completely revolves around posting.

Would be like trying to play dominion but never drawing any cards.

I want to play this deck. Then I'll never have to complain about drawing crappy cards!

[Twistedarcher]

vote: no lynch

[ashersky]

I got prodded after only 36 hours.

It's been a busy few days.

[ashersky]

I'd like a full popsquiz from everyone before we end the day.

[yuma]

I'd like a full popsquiz from everyone before we end the day.

This is hard, cause everything is kinda dependent upon whether or not you and gkierg are masons. If I make that assumption:

Then...
Townie
TA
chairs/Jimmmm
UoS
Awaclus
Scummy

If you two aren't scum then I think most likely partner is TA as that is the only way that there would only be one-non T and I think the only place that you two would be comfortable taking the risk of claiming masons. (TTTTTT or TTTTT) compared to (TTT or TTTT).

I don't know how to really put those two together...

[yuma]

I'd like a full popsquiz from everyone before we end the day.

and people will need to do this fast. TA's vote put us at 5 no-lynch votes so we are in twilight right now.

[Twistedarcher]

I'd like a full popsquiz from everyone before we end the day.

UoS
Masons
Chairs
Jimmmmm
Awaclus
Yuma

[Twistedarcher]

I'd like a full popsquiz from everyone before we end the day.

also is this actually a good idea or does it just tell mafia who to kill?

[yuma]

I'd like a full popsquiz from everyone before we end the day.

UoS
Masons
Chairs
Jimmmmm
Awaclus
Yuma

I am scummy?

I feel like this is the first I have heard of that...

[Twistedarcher]

I'd like a full popsquiz from everyone before we end the day.

UoS
Masons
Chairs
Jimmmmm
Awaclus
Yuma

I am scummy?

I feel like this is the first I have heard of that...

scum -> town

[yuma]

I'd like a full popsquiz from everyone before we end the day.

UoS
Masons
Chairs
Jimmmmm
Awaclus
Yuma

I am scummy?

I feel like this is the first I have heard of that...

scum -> town

oh... I thought because the masons were so high that was the townie side...

So I guess I don't get this train of thought from you.

If you are what you say you are, a roleblocker then you think that the masons claimed when there was at least a D and a B. So at most mafia had a TTTT, which would put them at 1-Shot Strongman; Roleblocker and a chance that they were actually at TTT?

Do you see mafia fake claiming day1 with the chance that the setup was TTT and a mason pair had already been created? That seems extremely risky

That is why I think the fake mason idea only works if you are lying as well. Then the setup would just be D and TTTTT, or mafia would think it could also be TTTTTT. much less risky

So I have a hard time seeing why you (if you are town and telling the truth) would think the masons are lying when the scenario that makes the most sense for them to lie would be if you are lying as well...

[ashersky]

Scum to town:

TA
Chairs
Awaclus
Yuma
Jimmmmm
UOS

[chairs]

Scum to chum:

Yuma
ashersky/gkrieg13
TA
Awaclus
Jimmmmm
UOS

[yuma]

Scum to chum:

Yuma
ashersky/gkrieg13
TA
Awaclus
Jimmmmm
UOS

Again I say the same thing I said above. If you think TA is telling the truth... which it appears you do, how can you think that ash/gkrieg would lie with the possibility of TTT facing them. That is super risky?

Or am I the only one that thinks so?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So we're rushing to give reads lists before the night why?  To help scum target NKs?

This is much more useful during the day, I'll pass.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

It's not like we have any PRs who can make use of this.  Why is everyone so quick to go along with it.

Also, sorry I've been busy.  Didn't get to the Hydrad reads vs. living player reads thing, but I think that's likely to have value.

Yes, reads aren't scum's top priority in picking an NK, but I didn't see any PR crumbs from Hydrad and when picking among others, I think killing him because his reads are good (or rather leaving some of us alive because our reads are bad) is more common than using it for framing, we're just paranoid about it.

WIFOM isn't a magic want we can wave to just not look at things.

[yuma]

It's not like we have any PRs who can make use of this.  Why is everyone so quick to go along with it.

Also, sorry I've been busy.  Didn't get to the Hydrad reads vs. living player reads thing, but I think that's likely to have value.

Yes, reads aren't scum's top priority in picking an NK, but I didn't see any PR crumbs from Hydrad and when picking among others, I think killing him because his reads are good (or rather leaving some of us alive because our reads are bad) is more common than using it for framing, we're just paranoid about it.

WIFOM isn't a magic want we can wave to just not look at things.

This is a funny post....

At the top you write about how giving reads before going into night (where one of us that is town will die) is only useful to mafia

But then the rest is saying how analyzing reads of NKs is useful to town because of who the mafia night kills might be dependent upon the reads of the player that died.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Umm, yeah.  It's pretty consistent.

Anyway, my bigger point is that tonight's kill probably has less value than last night's kill.  I don't think I really got that across but saying it now.

[Twistedarcher]

Late game I think the biggest factor for who town NKs is who is and isn't a viable mislynch.

[yuma]

Umm, yeah.  It's pretty consistent.

Anyway, my bigger point is that tonight's kill probably has less value than last night's kill.  I don't think I really got that across but saying it now.

Maybe... it depends on what happens...

I think the Hydrad kill was more about PR hunting plus keeping potential mislynches in play than it was what Hydrad's kills were. I don't know what to think about tonight's kill, but I don't really have a problem with people putting out reads because it could be useful down the road, but it depends on who is killed. I think going more into that won't be beneficial though...

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Oh, I get what you're trying to say.

But the point is, town and mafia have the same information about a player's reads when we go back to look at it.

If I die, what my exact reads are doesn't matter, what matters is what my reads look like to outside observers.  We gain nothing by giving reads lists going into night.  Mafia gain quite a bit.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Late game I think the biggest factor for who town NKs is who is and isn't a viable mislynch.

Agreed.  So what's the benefit of creating a thorough listing of exactly how viable each mislynch is?

[chairs]

Late game I think the biggest factor for who town NKs is who is and isn't a viable mislynch.

Let me bring you your scumslippers.

Mafia does the NKs, bub.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Hydrad is not that hard to mislynch is he?  And I can't find any PR crumbs he dropped.

And yes, it may not be that Hydrad's reads were great as much as the rest of our reads were especially terrible.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'd like a full popsquiz from everyone before we end the day.

Ash, why did you want this?

[Twistedarcher]

Late game I think the biggest factor for who town NKs is who is and isn't a viable mislynch.

Let me bring you your scumslippers.

Mafia does the NKs, bub.

yes, because scum me wouldn't know this.

[yuma]

Hydrad is not that hard to mislynch is he?  And I can't find any PR crumbs he dropped.

And yes, it may not be that Hydrad's reads were great as much as the rest of our reads were especially terrible.

In my analysis a couple of days ago I felt that he was actually on the outside looking in when it came to mislynch ability.

Everyone except for perhaps, you, UoS, had a better reason to be a mislynch (assuming everyone was town).

I had the accidental hammer + WW/faust suspicion
awaclus had me and you on him
TA had the left over PPS! and faust on him
Jimmmm and chairs could be seen as easy lurker lynches

Hydrad didn't have much of anything except a couple of votes day1... From what people have told me he can be an easy mislynch day1 generally, but in this game, compared to the rest of town, I don't think he would be any easier than the other options (of course dependent upon who was actually a viable mislynch and who was town).

This is one of the things that has made me more suspicious of you.

[silverspawn]

Thread locked!

[silverspawn]

Final Vote Count Day 3

yuma (1): Awaclus
chairs (2): ashersky, gkrieg13

No-Lynch (5): UmbrageOfSnow, yuma, Jimmmmm, chairs, Twistedarcher

With 8 alive, it took 5 to no-lynch.

[silverspawn]

“What is Hogwarts?”

“A place in a children's book.” Twilight groaned, rubbing her head and crawling into a sitting position. “Why?”

Fluttershy pointed upwards. Whereas something else entirely had been written there upon her arrival, now the letters formed the word 'HOGWARTS'; but only a few moments later, they changed to 'SHE PAINTED FIRE ACROSS THE SKYLINE'.

“Don't pay it any mind,” Twilight said, while Fluttershy gave the words a disbelieving stare. “Now that we've removed the author, things will stop making sense. These are just random bits that are in someway related to his life.”

“How do you know all that?”

Twilight barely noticeably winced upon the question. “I... know everything. The moment the author disappeared, I suddenly knew everything about the game. There are eight players left, it's us... seven, plus Equestria - whatever that means. And I know why we lost players without doing anything; we only get to choose every second one, the other one is-”

A sudden giggle made her turn around. “Huh?”

Fluttershy said nothing, simply pointing upwards and using a front limb to stifle her laughter.

TWILIGHT IS BEST PONY

Twilight could feel her face heating up, an occurrence which wasn't helped by the fact that her clone, too, couldn't suppress a snicker.

“... anyway. We need to find the others, and then we need to decide who of them is lying... there are three among them. Or, well, two, I guess.” She gave a groan. "It's probably something as stupid as the grammar thing."

She didn't say that it could also be someone among them – including herself. A glance back to her clone brought a sour taste into her mouth. If she...

“So, what do we do?”

Twilight gave Fluttershy a smile, thankful for the question.

“Well, this room is a sort of a... uh, artificial intelligence. But not a very smart one. I don't know exactly how it works, but the author must have prepared it somehow.” She tactfully ignored the letters above, which now read 'FEUER UND BRANDUNG UND STURM'. “I don't know exactly how it works, but I think if we want to meet the others, the best we can do is to concentrate on that idea, and then then just walk somewhere.” She pointed to the wall to their left, where a simple room led outside the hall.

The others nodded, and the three of them made a beeline for the exit. Right before they rounded the corner, Twilight threw a final look over her shoulder.

AND THE MADNESS MACHINE

The third word stuck with her long after she had looked away.

[silverspawn]

No-one has been lynched. Night 3 begins now and ends at October 04, 4 pm forum time.

[silverspawn]

“By the way, guys.” Twilight nervously cast a look around while she spoke. The hallway they were walking through had a strange asthetic, almost resembling a tunnel, and it was going on in turns for far longer than it should. “We decided on the author, and still haven't received a penalty, so soon one of us will-”

“Hi!”

“Yikes!” Twilight winced, but smiled as soon as she had gotten over her initial shock. “We found you. Good.” And so it was, the entire remaining group had rounded a corner, Pinkie in front.

As soon as Twilight had said this, the corridor around them expanded. The outer walls of the narrow walkway broadened, morphing into a large hall, not completely unlike the previous one, but with circular walls, and instead of a shining collection of letters sprouting short messages at random, it seemed to have a shifting aesthetic, forgoing a gradual change, noticeable even during the few seconds since it's appearance.



“... anyway. One of each two removals is out of our control, so soon one of us will...” When she noticed that everyone was staring at her, as if expecting a loophole, she gave a helpless shrug. “I'm sorry. There's nothing we can do. Whoever is chosen will be... pulled out of responsibility.”

Had the room waited on her to say this? Perhaps so, or perhaps it was coincidence, but as soon as the words were said, it happened. Somehow, she had expected the victim to suffer, to collapse maybe, or even to show physical injuries. But of course that was silly, none of them would get hurt, none was in real danger, it was all about winning or not winning. But the shock she felt was real, and when she bit on her tongue until it bled, the resulting pain was real.

She didn't know if her own sudden disappearance, from one moment to the next, had made it easier or harder, perhaps it didn't  matter. But she felt a foreign anger dwelling up inside her, and a cold and calculating determination. Two of her friends were lying, perhaps three, and she would find out who they were. Now.

[silverspawn]

Twistedarcher has died in the night. He was A clone of Twilight Sparkle, a Town Roleblocker.

Day 4 begins now and ends at October 11, 5 pm Forum Time.

(Also sorry for the 1 hour delay.)

[Jimmmmm]

Well I'm glad TA was Nightkilled instead of lynched.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 4.0

Not Voting (7): UmbrageOfSnow, yuma, Jimmmmm, chairs, Awaclus, ashersky, gkrieg13

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Day 4 ends at October 11, 05 pm forum time.

[yuma]

OK.

so this means we certainly had DB at the least. Meaning that if ash/gkierg were mafia then they would have received 1-Shot Strongman; Roleblocker. They would not know if they had TTTT or TTT. But if they fake claimed would have had to incurred the risk of TTT and at least one of the 3 non-Ts being a M. If even one of them was an M their fake claim would have gone up in flames.

So I think this makes their claim much more legitimate as I felt that their fake claim only worked if TA was lying as well.

So from my perspective we are back to: Jimmmm, chairs, Awaclus and UoS. 3 out of 4. Awaclus is still my main preference for so many reasons.

And we are now to the point of one vote by town on town could, conceivably result in a triple scum hammer (unlikely but not out of the realm of possibility) so I will hold off from voting for now.

[silverspawn]

As several people have asked about it, here a detailed explanation of how the happily ever after ruling will be enforced:

Mafia will not be able to no-kill in any night if and only if the previous three game stages have been a sequence of (no-lynch, no-kill, no-lynch). This means that town is able to provoke a kill by no-lynching twice.

If mafia doesn't submit a kill in such a situation, one will be randomized, wherein player M will attempt to kill player A, player M being any random player from the remaining mafia team, and player A any random player from the entire pool. Mafia will be notified of which choice was randomized and it will count as a submission for all purposes, even if it doesn't go through. Town will not be notified whether or not the nightkill was chosen or randomized.

I hope this covers all edge-cases!

[ashersky]

No one vote.

[ashersky]

You all get that, of course.

For the two town out of the 5 of you, you are at a 3/4 juncture, which is obviously awesome.  Literally.

So, do what you have to do to find the most likely player to be the other town.  This isn't about scumhunting anymore -- it's town hunting.

[Jimmmmm]

My alarm bells are telling me to consider the possibility of an ash/gkrieg/yuma team.

Each person should think about the situation themselves and see if they come up with the same conclusion as yuma.

[Jimmmmm]

My alarm bells are telling me to consider the possibility of an ash/gkrieg/yuma team.

Okay, maybe that doesn't work. Give me a minute.

[Jimmmmm]

UOS, yuma, chairs and Awaclus all claimed VT right?

[Jimmmmm]

My alarm bells are telling me to consider the possibility of an ash/gkrieg/yuma team.

Okay, maybe that doesn't work. Give me a minute.

Yeah okay, no Masons = 2-person scumteam.

[Jimmmmm]

So Today we assume that ash and gkrieg are truly Masons, because if they're not we'll catch them Tomorrow, but if they are we're at lylo Today, right?

[Jimmmmm]

Ugh no it's a 3-person scum team regardless.

[Jimmmmm]

So back to considering "Masons" + yuma...

[yuma]

My alarm bells are telling me to consider the possibility of an ash/gkrieg/yuma team.

Each person should think about the situation themselves and see if they come up with the same conclusion as yuma.

My conclusion should be the same regardless of my alignment.

It boils down to this:

"Do you think that gkierg and ash would have risked claiming masons Night0--when they would have discussed it--know that there was a chance that the setup was TTT and that a single M role would have ruined their fakeclaim?"

I will concede that it still is possible that ash/gkierg are lying and one of the other four is their partner (awaclus would be my bet given that they two of them have been the only two players to vote for him...)

If someone with a better grasp of statistics wants to look at it, that would be cool... I just tried and realized that I had forgotten a lot in the last 10 years since my last stats class.

Regardless, I think it would have been too risky to try. The scenario where TA was fake claiming as well would have been a lot less risky as the Setup would have either been 1T or 0T, but now that TA is confirmed as a roleblocker we know town had at least TTTT and far more likely just a T (DBMMM)

It is also important to remember that gkierg claimed before faust claimed UB. This is an important piece to remember as if it was fake it was far riskier to claim before knowing about the UB status than it was to claim after and I would have been much more skeptical of the claim had it come after...

[yuma]

This isn't about scumhunting anymore -- it's town hunting.

I get that idea, but unfortunately there are two players without a lot of content... Jimmmm and chairs (and UoS in the early game) in large part just because of RL stuff and how they play. And right now I can't really separate them at all. I just looked over their posts and well.... it comes down to does Jimmmm post that little as scum? And that is a dangerous question to try and place a game on.

I am much more certain of awaclus being scum than I am of any one player being town because none of the four options has been exceptionally townie this game.

[ashersky]

This isn't about scumhunting anymore -- it's town hunting.

I get that idea, but unfortunately there are two players without a lot of content... Jimmmm and chairs (and UoS in the early game) in large part just because of RL stuff and how they play. And right now I can't really separate them at all. I just looked over their posts and well.... it comes down to does Jimmmm post that little as scum? And that is a dangerous question to try and place a game on.

I am much more certain of awaclus being scum than I am of any one player being town because none of the four options has been exceptionally townie this game.

I think it's important to decide who you think is towniest, too.

You've been on Awaclus all game.  The others matter too.

The fact that chairs and Jimmmm have so little content is big.  Yes, it plays into their established metas, and that could be on purpose.  Jimmmmm has started off today badly, but maybe that's frustrated omgus because man, he freaking never townreads me and it's annoying.  Plus, the confusion thing seemed really faked.

To me, UOS made up for the early game lag easily.

And you, i think you are town.  Gut read, plus speaking the sense.

[yuma]

Yeah okay, no Masons = 2-person scumteam.

Sigh. It is Day4. You should have a decent grasp of the game state and not leave town to try and figure out if this is just ignorance or a ploy for a town-slip.

Please!

[Jimmmmm]

Yeah okay, no Masons = 2-person scumteam.

Sigh. It is Day4. You should have a decent grasp of the game state and not leave town to try and figure out if this is just ignorance or a ploy for a town-slip.

Please!

I know, and I'm sorry.

[yuma]

I think it's important to decide who you think is towniest, too.

That is fair. Right now I honestly can't decide between Jimmmmm and chairs on who is towniest. There isn't enough to separate them. Data points from a later game will be really useful if we are able to get a correct lynch today that might separate them out for me.... If deadline was right now and the vote was tied and I was the deciding vote I would vote for Jimmmm--chairs I think has had a few moments that seemed townie to me whereas Jimmmm hasn't had anything to read off....

I do think UoS has been scummy, certainly not fully townie (had some points about him earlier)

And if we had lynched awaclus earlier in the game I wouldn't have needed to be on him all game.

[yuma]

I know, and I'm sorry.

That said... I have a hard time seeing you thinking feigning such a "town slip" in a game with ashersky as being a "good idea"

[Awaclus]

I think it's important to decide who you think is towniest, too.

That is fair. Right now I honestly can't decide between Jimmmmm and chairs on who is towniest. There isn't enough to separate them. Data points from a later game will be really useful if we are able to get a correct lynch today that might separate them out for me.... If deadline was right now and the vote was tied and I was the deciding vote I would vote for Jimmmm--chairs I think has had a few moments that seemed townie to me whereas Jimmmm hasn't had anything to read off....

I do think UoS has been scummy, certainly not fully townie (had some points about him earlier)

And if we had lynched awaclus earlier in the game I wouldn't have needed to be on him all game.

It would probably help with getting that correct lynch if you stopped wanting to lynch me.

[Jimmmmm]

I think it's important to decide who you think is towniest, too.

That is fair. Right now I honestly can't decide between Jimmmmm and chairs on who is towniest. There isn't enough to separate them. Data points from a later game will be really useful if we are able to get a correct lynch today that might separate them out for me.... If deadline was right now and the vote was tied and I was the deciding vote I would vote for Jimmmm--chairs I think has had a few moments that seemed townie to me whereas Jimmmm hasn't had anything to read off....

I do think UoS has been scummy, certainly not fully townie (had some points about him earlier)

And if we had lynched awaclus earlier in the game I wouldn't have needed to be on him all game.

It would probably help with getting that correct lynch if you stopped wanting to lynch me.

This does nothing to stop people wanting to lynch you.

[Awaclus]

This does nothing to stop people wanting to lynch you.

It should though. The #1 thing going on in each townie's head now should be "how do I not get lynched" because a mislynch immediately loses us the game and the odds of hitting scum as long as we lynch anyone but myself (or the masons) are super good. It's not super important for scum, however, since two of them can afford to get correctly lynched before it's game over for them.

It clearly was the most important thing in my mind because why else would I hurry to make that post before having anything else to say.

[Jimmmmm]

My alarm bells are telling me to consider the possibility of an ash/gkrieg/yuma team.

Each person should think about the situation themselves and see if they come up with the same conclusion as yuma.

My conclusion should be the same regardless of my alignment.

It boils down to this:

"Do you think that gkierg and ash would have risked claiming masons Night0--when they would have discussed it--know that there was a chance that the setup was TTT and that a single M role would have ruined their fakeclaim?"

I will concede that it still is possible that ash/gkierg are lying and one of the other four is their partner (awaclus would be my bet given that they two of them have been the only two players to vote for him...)

If someone with a better grasp of statistics wants to look at it, that would be cool... I just tried and realized that I had forgotten a lot in the last 10 years since my last stats class.

Regardless, I think it would have been too risky to try. The scenario where TA was fake claiming as well would have been a lot less risky as the Setup would have either been 1T or 0T, but now that TA is confirmed as a roleblocker we know town had at least TTTT and far more likely just a T (DBMMM)

It is also important to remember that gkierg claimed before faust claimed UB. This is an important piece to remember as if it was fake it was far riskier to claim before knowing about the UB status than it was to claim after and I would have been much more skeptical of the claim had it come after...

So the argument against this is this:

Given there's either 3 or 4 Ts and not 2 Ms, by my calculations (and I can't guarantee they're correct, but I can walk you through what I did if you want), there is a 35.3% chance that there is either 1 or 3 Ms.

Now if the team is yuma, ash and gkrieg, I mean no offense to gkrieg and I haven't played with him before so really I don't know, but I imagine yuma and ash are the stronger players (because they're both very strong players). I could totally see this team agreeing to a 35% chance of losing their choice of scum in exchange for getting Masons to claim, and a 65% chance of pretty much just winning the game.

Knowing there are 2-3 non-Ts, they would also have known that there were some non-VTs around which would likely claim sooner or later, giving them other targets to shoot to avoid them falling under suspicion for not dying.

To the other 3, if you're Town please consider this possibility seriously and let us know what you think.

[ashersky]

We already know it can't be 1 M, there was a UB who flipped.

[Jimmmmm]

We already know it can't be 1 M, there was a UB who flipped.

I'm talking about what a scum team with a 1-Shot Strongman and a Roleblocker would know at the start of the game.

[yuma]

So the argument against this is this:

Given there's either 3 or 4 Ts and not 2 Ms, by my calculations (and I can't guarantee they're correct, but I can walk you through what I did if you want), there is a 35.3% chance that there is either 1 or 3 Ms.

I would have thought this % to be much higher. If it is what you say then I will concede it would be much more worthwhile to look at...

I am sorry I am not good enough at stats to even think about verifying what you did was correct (I know it is all basic math, but when I attempt to do it I get totally confused and end up making a bunch of mistakes).

Also i am wondering if you removed the 2 Ms from the equation because a confirmed IC would have been known at start of day and faking-mason mafia would have been made aware of this (I don't know if this increases their percentage or not... But just wanted to make sure it was included)

[yuma]

We already know it can't be 1 M, there was a UB who flipped.

I'm talking about what a scum team with a 1-Shot Strongman and a Roleblocker would know at the start of the game.

Right but when making the decision mafia would have probably stated something along the lines of "if there is an IC immediately abort this plan" and so it shouldn't be included in probability calculations...

[yuma]

Ok. Here is my attempt....

TTTTXX 50% chance

For 1M there is a 10% chance for each individual role. I think you add those up so that there is a 20% chance there is at least 1 M being rolled.

If this was the case there would have been no UB. However, if there was there would have been an immediate counterclaim so the ship would have sunk.

For 2M: doesn't need to be calculated because there would have been an IC, so Mafia would have calculated this out separately... and mafia probably would have aborted any plan here... as Masons + IC would be MMMM (long shot)

total of 20% chance

TTTXXX 50% chance

For 1M there is a 10% chance for each individual role. I think you add those up so that there is a 30% chance there is at least 1M.

If this was the case there would have been no UB. However, if there was there would have been an immediate counterclaim so the ship would have sunk.

For 2M: doesn't need to be calculated

For 3M: 0.1%... is that right 10%*10%*10%=0.1% Ok, so that is really low percentage.

Total of 30.1%+20%/2=25.05%

So got an even lower amount than Jimmmmmm.... If right then I think we really need to look at this closer....

(Am i even doing this right?)

[yuma]

However, we need to keep in mind that this (if correct) is just looking purely at statistics of being counterclaimed.

The problem with masons is that the claim gets awfully suspicious as the masons stay alive longer and longer... (which they have) due to PoE.

If their partner gets lynched along the way (totally plausible) then there are even more nights where they aren't getting NKed.

So while the statistical number is important there are some "incalculables" that need to be accounted for as well.

[Jimmmmm]

We already know it can't be 1 M, there was a UB who flipped.

I'm talking about what a scum team with a 1-Shot Strongman and a Roleblocker would know at the start of the game.

Right but when making the decision mafia would have probably stated something along the lines of "if there is an IC immediately abort this plan" and so it shouldn't be included in probability calculations...

Yeah I was assuming they knew no IC, but obviously they could have easily planned for it.

[ashersky]

I'm crazy busy today, so I won't be around much, but will try to keep up.

I don't know if I'm supposed to be flattered you'd think I'd lie about masons, but I'm not.  If you believe I'd do it, you are insulting me pretty badly.  You seem to forget who invented the setup we are playing.

But let me break down what you aren't considering, and what I know because I designed.

If scum fakeclaim a role that requires more letters in a setup than actually exist, their chances of being caught increase more than you are accounting for.

Take your specific example, that the masons are lying.

This game is DMMMBT.  That's a Doctor, 2 Masons, Roleblocker, UB vs. Strongman, Godfather, Goon or Strongman, Godfather, 1-Shot BP.

Now, take out the masons.  We don't add letters, specifically, because there are no other PRs.  We have:

DBTTTT or EEEBTT.  That gives you a scumteam of 1-Shot Strongman, Godfather for the first one and Strongman, Godfather in the second.  You need to use that information to decide if a scumteam is willing to fakeclaim masons.

DBTTTT -- scum knows it is 3T or 4T, but do not know if masons, UB, IC exist.  Remember that scum can only add MMM to a setup, because they can't account for the UB existing or not and it will flip or claim eventually.  So, if they are adding MMM, they are changing the # of Ts, which means if the wrong scum flips the entire team is caught. 

EEEBTT -- scum knows it is 1T or 2T, but do not know if masons, UB, IC exist.  To decide to try to add MMM to a setup that doesn't have enough free letters is stoopid dumb.  They don't know it's EEE, but they can't just assume it.  Anyone single other PR claimed and the setup was screwed up.


That's the way you should be breaking this down.  Not your hypotheticals so far.  Take what we know, apply it to the situation.  I don't know why anyone is wasting their time doing this -- we need to find the two town in 5 players and lynch correctly 3 times in a row.

[ashersky]

I have a few more posts to write -- one about my top scum read, one about players today.

We're still looking for the top town player among the VTs from each player.

[yuma]

I don't know if I'm supposed to be flattered you'd think I'd lie about masons, but I'm not.  If you believe I'd do it, you are insulting me pretty badly.  You seem to forget who invented the setup we are playing.

Don't be insulted... at least not yet. I mean, let us do our due diligence. If it turns out to be as ridiculously risky as you are saying it is we won't consider it. I mean I thought it was to start, but Jimmmmm's numbers made me wonder. And if it turns out to be ridiculously risky and we still suspect you... then sure be offended. But we--I and if you are a mason then the one other VT--need to make sure before we proceed with anything else. So don't be insulted by us making sure...

[Jimmmmm]

I don't know if I'm supposed to be flattered you'd think I'd lie about masons, but I'm not.  If you believe I'd do it, you are insulting me pretty badly.  You seem to forget who invented the setup we are playing.

Don't be insulted... at least not yet. I mean, let us do our due diligence. If it turns out to be as ridiculously risky as you are saying it is we won't consider it. I mean I thought it was to start, but Jimmmmm's numbers made me wonder. And if it turns out to be ridiculously risky and we still suspect you... then sure be offended. But we--I and if you are a mason then the one other VT--need to make sure before we proceed with anything else. So don't be insulted by us making sure...

Hear.

[chairs]

Yeah, I get what ash is saying, but I don't think (as scum) you let two Masons live to D4, which is part of the argument in favor of considering that possibility.

[yuma]

DBTTTT -- scum knows it is 3T or 4T, but do not know if masons, UB, IC exist.  Remember that scum can only add MMM to a setup, because they can't account for the UB existing or not and it will flip or claim eventually.  So, if they are adding MMM, they are changing the # of Ts, which means if the wrong scum flips the entire team is caught. 

I want to make sure I am following what you are saying here.

So if masons fake they are changing what town would expect TTTT to T. So if a 1-shot Strongman flips then town will know that the masons must be lying? Because town would expect a Strongman flip instead?

That is a valid concern. But I don't think it means "the entire scum team is caught" necessarily. What scum would need to do is make sure that the 1-shot Strongman be one of the masons claiming, as well as the Goon.

So in this case ash/gkierg would be the 1-shot Strongman/Goon and then the other player would be the Godfather, so that if that player were lynched along the way it wouldn't implicate the the claimed masons in this manner (there are other concerns about PoE that I discussed earlier if a partner is lynched, but that is separate from this point)

and yes, ash, we know that EEEBTT would be stoooopid for scum to claim in. That is why absolutely no one has been considering it and removed it from the possibility completely in our "attempted" calculations. Plus EEE is just much more less likely than a single D.

[yuma]

two more incalculables:

1. ash came out of the gates day1 saying masons should claim. If he is thinking about fakeclaiming mason this could be a way of "testing the water." If masons claim then the plan is immediately aborted. But if a little while goes by and no masons claim... then maybe it is a good idea?

2. when gkierg claimed mason he refused to name his partner. If he had been counter claimed at this time by another set of masons ashersky would not have been implicated as it was not obvious until a little bit later in the game that ash was his mason co-claimer, in fact most players at that time could have been mason partners. It was still risky, but it wasn't as risky as fake claiming two masons.

However both of these things have perfectly valid reasons and rationale behind them if ash/gkierg are town.

[yuma]

What do you think about this Awaclus? I am assuming you are indeed thinking about these things and would like to know your thoughts

and more importantly have them documented here, on the forum, where we play this game we call mafia

[Awaclus]

Yeah, I get what ash is saying, but I don't think (as scum) you let two Masons live to D4, which is part of the argument in favor of considering that possibility.

Well, each NK has been on another PR so far, and there's an advantage to not confirming the other mason, and the advantage is precisely that then you can point out that the masons are still alive and mislynch them based on that.

I don't really want to lynch a mason today. Scum!ash might come up with the idea, but he wouldn't do the math. I could maybe see ash/gkrieg/UoS, but otherwise it just seems pretty unlikely and the town narrative for the masons seems consistent.

[yuma]

Yeah, I get what ash is saying, but I don't think (as scum) you let two Masons live to D4, which is part of the argument in favor of considering that possibility.

Well, each NK has been on another PR so far, and there's an advantage to not confirming the other mason, and the advantage is precisely that then you can point out that the masons are still alive and mislynch them based on that.

I don't really want to lynch a mason today. Scum!ash might come up with the idea, but he wouldn't do the math. I could maybe see ash/gkrieg/UoS, but otherwise it just seems pretty unlikely and the town narrative for the masons seems consistent.

I actually think I agree. But every time I think I get settled on this idea something comes up.

Such as: hydrad not being known to be a PR kill.

Ok if ash/gkierg are masons then the setup was DBMMMT. At that point mafia would know Strongman/Roleblocker but wouldn't know if they were at XXXXXT or XXXXTT. But they knew there would be at least one more X, so one more PR maybe two out of the following players: hydrad, ta, yuma, jimmmm, awaclus, chairs, UoS (taking away three from mafia) so out of 4 players. So it was either a 1/4 shot or a 2/4 shot depending on the setup. Well take away me as well, cause I had claimed VT by that point. so it would have been a 1/3 shot or a 2/3 shot depending on the setup.

Compared to a 1/1 shot to take out a mason, but that would then create an auto-IC in the surviving mason.

But more importantly, I think, they would be killing players from their potential mislynch pool where now it is 3 mafia in 5 town (if ash/gkierg) are confirmed.

Ugh. I still fee like it is a toss up.

[yuma]

I guess part of my question is this:

Do we think mafia (if ash and gkierg are masons) would have been able to get a mislynch onto hydrad easier than they could have onto the masons?

No... that doesn't work as well because at the time mafia didn't know what role hydrad had. He could have been a cop or a vig. So that kill makes sense and works.

But the question still works for TA.

Do we think mafia (if ash and gkierg are masons) would have been able to get a mislynch onto TA easier than they could have onto the masons?

Because, in my mind, if they thought they could have lynched TA today, it would have been worth creating an IC for a day because all they needed was one mislynch for the win.

For example: if ash had been killed and flipped mason then gkierg would have been an IC. But TA still would have been a mislynch candidate.

I know I was pretty against lynching TA, but I think I was about the only player around that felt that way. So I think that could have been a plausible course of action.

Unless mafia thought it would be easier to try and get us to lynch the masons (which is obviously semi-being discussed here...) because I don't think counting on mislynching one of the VTs 3/5 is enough to bank on. Especially because if we do get a correct lynch today on one of the claimed VTs mafia will once again be forced to decide whether or not to NK masons or not tonight...

[chairs]

Well, assuming today we lynch a VT, I'm eliminating Jimmm from my lynch pool.

[chairs]

And also Yuma.

[chairs]

So I guess for me that leaves UoS/Awaclus.

This is a difficult choice.

[yuma]

I am kinda coming to the conclusion that we should be lynching VT today regardless of whether we think ash/gkierg are lying or not. As if we do hit mafia, like I said, that will force mafia to make a decision about whether or not to kill masons (and I want them to make that decision instead of us so that we can then analyze it or use it for our benefit)

I think what I am trying to figure out right now is whether or not we should be taking interactions with the claimed mason pair when trying to decide which VT to lynch.... and then go from there figuring out which one to actually lynch.

[chairs]

Good point.

[gkrieg13]

busy today.  Will get to this tomorrow.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 4.1

Not Voting (7): Awaclus, ashersky, yuma, gkrieg13, UmbrageOfSnow, chairs, Jimmmmm

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Day 4 ends at Oct 11, 05 PM forum time. That is in 6 days and 2+ hours.

[yuma]

Ok I'm back and I don't see any mason claims.  I'm not super keen on lynching PPS because he is one of my null reads, but I will change my vote so it's not no lynch if I have to.  I think his flip will give us a lot of good information going into D2.

This is an interesting post...

I think if gkierg is indeed a mason he wouldn't be anticipating any other mason claims (other than his partner who he would already know). So this post stating that he didn't see any other mason claims kinda looks like "I didn't see any other masons claim, so I must be the real deal right?? Right?"

Because for there to be another mason pair that would require MMMMMM (crazy long odds).

And mafia isn't going to counter claim a claimed mason. That would just be suicidal...

Is there a town narrative (awaclus' is getting to me) for this statement? Other than just kinda a weird thing to be thinking?

[yuma]

I think scum team is awaclus/ash/gkrieg.

everything fits too perfectly. Calling it now.

(Now you can be offended ash)

[gkrieg13]

That post that you're referring to is because I wasn't going to be around for the deadline but people said to just check in to confirm any mason claims. So that's what I was doing.

PPE

[yuma]

That post that you're referring to is because I wasn't going to be around for the deadline but people said to just check in to confirm any mason claims. So that's what I was doing.

PPE

Hmmm that actually makes sense then...

[Jimmmmm]

Well, assuming today we lynch a VT, I'm eliminating Jimmm from my lynch pool.

Why?

[chairs]

Well, assuming today we lynch a VT, I'm eliminating Jimmm from my lynch pool.

Why?

Gut.

[Jimmmmm]

For whatever you think it's worth, DBMMMT occurs in 0.03% of games, while DBTTTT occurs in 0.9375% of games, which is 31.25 times more likely.

[Jimmmmm]

For whatever you think it's worth, DBMMMT occurs in 0.03% of games, while DBTTTT occurs in 0.9375% of games, which is 31.25 times more likely.

Another way of putting it is now we know there's a Doctor and a Roleblocker, there's a 1/16 chance that there are no more roles, and a 1/500 chance that there are Masons.

[Awaclus]

For whatever you think it's worth, DBMMMT occurs in 0.03% of games, while DBTTTT occurs in 0.9375% of games, which is 31.25 times more likely.

Another way of putting it is now we know there's a Doctor and a Roleblocker, there's a 1/16 chance that there are no more roles, and a 1/500 chance that there are Masons.

Is this right? I'm too tired to do the math myself at the moment, but if that is right, I think we have to lynch a mason today after all. Almost regardless of how believable the mason narrative is, it seems silly to not count on the 499/500 chance.

[Jimmmmm]

For whatever you think it's worth, DBMMMT occurs in 0.03% of games, while DBTTTT occurs in 0.9375% of games, which is 31.25 times more likely.

Another way of putting it is now we know there's a Doctor and a Roleblocker, there's a 1/16 chance that there are no more roles, and a 1/500 chance that there are Masons.

Is this right? I'm too tired to do the math myself at the moment, but if that is right, I think we have to lynch a mason today after all. Almost regardless of how believable the mason narrative is, it seems silly to not count on the 499/500 chance.

Well we know that one of them is true, so maybe you'd say it's more like 3%/97%. And of course we shouldn't base our lynch on assuming that we have a more likely setup, it's just something to take into account.

[Awaclus]

Well we know that one of them is true, so maybe you'd say it's more like 3%/97%. And of course we shouldn't base our lynch on assuming that we have a more likely setup, it's just something to take into account.

Oh. Well, 3% is a lot more than 1/500. Had it been 1/500, I think that basing the lynch on it would have been pretty good. Now, it sounds like something that would probably actually happen every now and then, so basing the lynch on it isn't super good.

[Awaclus]

I need to think about this in more detail tomorrow, though.

[yuma]

Well we know that one of them is true, so maybe you'd say it's more like 3%/97%. And of course we shouldn't base our lynch on assuming that we have a more likely setup, it's just something to take into account.

I think what we mostly need to take into account is whether or not gkrieg/ash and unknown partner would take the risk knowing such percentages. That is really the question that needs to be asked more than anything else.

But it also needs to be kept in mind that in mafia's eyes at the time they were considering claiming there was only a 50% chance that this would be the fake scenario that would need to be created DBMMMT. The other 50% chance was DMMMTT, which occurs a little bit more often...

Because if fakeclaiming (with what we know of the setup, DBTTTT) mafia knew 1-shot Strongman, Roleblocker so knew there would either be TTTT or TTT so 4Ts to fake claim with or 3Ts to fake claim with.

Wait, I am getting this wrong then. The other 50% chance would be DBXMMM (not what I have above) which would be super, super risky as it is even more rare than what Jimmmmm was describing above.

So gkrieg/ash and buddy would have had to know they would be putting us in a super unlikely scenario or a super, super, super unlikely scenario statistically. Which I don't think they would do.

Either that or they didn't fully weight the statistical risk when making their decision...

[ashersky]

Occam's razor, people.  This is all interesting talk, but basically you are all just pointing out how great my design is.

If you want to argue the likelihood of a setup being rolled as a reason to say we are lying (hint: that's a fallacy), you can flip it and argue that why would scum intentionally lie about something so statistically unlikely?

[Jimmmmm]

Occam's razor, people.  This is all interesting talk, but basically you are all just pointing out how great my design is.

If you want to argue the likelihood of a setup being rolled as a reason to say we are lying (hint: that's a fallacy), you can flip it and argue that why would scum intentionally lie about something so statistically unlikely?

If you were in a Mason pair, you'd have no issue at all with there being another Mason pair, despite the fact that the chances of rolling MMMMMM is literally one in a million?

[ashersky]

Occam's razor, people.  This is all interesting talk, but basically you are all just pointing out how great my design is.

If you want to argue the likelihood of a setup being rolled as a reason to say we are lying (hint: that's a fallacy), you can flip it and argue that why would scum intentionally lie about something so statistically unlikely?

If you were in a Mason pair, you'd have no issue at all with there being another Mason pair, despite the fact that the chances of rolling MMMMMM is literally one in a million?

Considering we've had a doc and rb flip?  Yes, I'd have issue with that.

Are you claiming mason now?

Belligerent and Mean Jimmmmm is generally town!Jimmmmm at least.

[yuma]

Occam's razor, people.  This is all interesting talk, but basically you are all just pointing out how great my design is.

If you want to argue the likelihood of a setup being rolled as a reason to say we are lying (hint: that's a fallacy), you can flip it and argue that why would scum intentionally lie about something so statistically unlikely?

and then you can flip it and argue that scum would know that town wouldn't think they would intentionally lie about something so statistically unlikely.

Except! That is when you start getting into the arguments I was bringing up about WW and TA earlier, about the risk/rewards that mafia have to go through when analyzing making such a decision. Relying on town to make a counter argument of "they would never do that, its too crazy" is a risk that scum, I think more often that not, doesn't take.

Keeping this argument in mind is a little bit difficult when I am the one bringing up the counter side, but I think it is important to still do so.

So I guess I am at the point only mildly considering viewing the masons as potentially fake claiming.

I still want to lynch away from them within the VT pool and then after we correctly hit scum mafia will be forced to make a choice regardless of where the mason claim stands. From there we can go forward, depending on what happens. I think keeping in mind whether or not a person could viably be partners with the mason is going to be a small, but certainly not the most important part, of deciding who to lynch today.

[chairs]

I know where my vote will be, but I don't want to throw out a vote until we're all agreed it's time to do that.

[yuma]

I know where my vote will be, but I don't want to throw out a vote until we're all agreed it's time to do that.

and I know where mine will be (awaclus). Do you want to share where yours will be as well?

[chairs]

UoS.

[yuma]

UoS.

well poop. although probably not a bad choice... if the masons are telling the truth there is a good chance both UoS and Awaclus are both mafia. I just happen to think that Awaclus is a far superior choice.

[Awaclus]

Now that it's tomorrow and I've thought about this in more detail, I still like lynching from the VTs. It's not unreasonably unlikely that we would have the masons, it would suck if we lynch them and they're town, and if they're scum, we need to find the third scum anyway so might as well do it now, it's super good if scum NKs one of the masons and it's also super good if they NK someone else, and I kind of don't like how easy it is for scum to push the case against the masons at this point since you can base the majority of the case around theory talk instead of having to fabricate reads on someone you know is town.

UoS is a good choice because he makes sense as scum partners with the masons and he's also not the towniest VT around.

[yuma]

UoS is a good choice because he makes sense as scum partners with the masons and he's also not the towniest VT around.

You don't like me anymore?

[Awaclus]

UoS is a good choice because he makes sense as scum partners with the masons and he's also not the towniest VT around.

You don't like me anymore?

Well, I re-read the game earlier today and I might actually be inclined to believe that if the masons are town, you are the other VT. I also find it unlikely that you're the masons' partner even if you're scum, so lynching someone who could be your partner or the masons' partner is better.

[chairs]

well... moment of truth time, I think.

vote: UoS.

[yuma]

well... moment of truth time, I think.

vote: UoS.

I don't think.

UoS hasn't even been online today. ash and gkrieg have barely spoken... I request that you remove your vote. We like 5+ days.

[gkrieg13]

That seems like strange timing to cast a vote.  We have a lot of time, and we need to get this right.  I have taken yuma off my list for today.  So that leaves 3/4 of the rest being scum.  I feel like chairs and UoS are my top scum reads right now.  Between Awaclus and jimmmmm I have no idea.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 4.2

UmbrageOfSnow (1): chairs

Not Voting (6): Awaclus, ashersky, yuma, gkrieg13, UmbrageOfSnow, Jimmmmm

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Day 4 ends at Oct 11, 05 PM forum time. That is in 5 days and 2+ hours.

[ashersky]

I will have time tomorrow to post.  Have been killer busy so far this week and it isn't letting up.

I'm assuming chairs expected a quick hammer?  That moment of truth comment was just odd.  Not like he put him to L-1.

Seems to me, expecting a triple quick hammer means chairs knows he's voting for town...

[chairs]

I will have time tomorrow to post.  Have been killer busy so far this week and it isn't letting up.

I'm assuming chairs expected a quick hammer?  That moment of truth comment was just odd.  Not like he put him to L-1.

Seems to me, expecting a triple quick hammer means chairs knows he's voting for town...

I'm not expecting a quick hammer, but voting does make it a possibility.

[Jimmmmm]

Occam's razor, people.  This is all interesting talk, but basically you are all just pointing out how great my design is.

If you want to argue the likelihood of a setup being rolled as a reason to say we are lying (hint: that's a fallacy), you can flip it and argue that why would scum intentionally lie about something so statistically unlikely?

If you were in a Mason pair, you'd have no issue at all with there being another Mason pair, despite the fact that the chances of rolling MMMMMM is literally one in a million?

Considering we've had a doc and rb flip?  Yes, I'd have issue with that.

Are you claiming mason now?

Belligerent and Mean Jimmmmm is generally town!Jimmmmm at least.

How have I been mean?

[yuma]

I will have time tomorrow to post.  Have been killer busy so far this week and it isn't letting up.

I'm assuming chairs expected a quick hammer?  That moment of truth comment was just odd.  Not like he put him to L-1.

Seems to me, expecting a triple quick hammer means chairs knows he's voting for town...

I'm not expecting a quick hammer, but voting does make it a possibility.

why haven't you unvoted?

[yuma]

I will have time tomorrow to post.  Have been killer busy so far this week and it isn't letting up.

I'm assuming chairs expected a quick hammer?  That moment of truth comment was just odd.  Not like he put him to L-1.

Seems to me, expecting a triple quick hammer means chairs knows he's voting for town...

this scenario isn't possible...

what you are implying is that chair's is mafia and knew he would be voting for town and then expected three other scumbuddies to join him to quick hammer, which would put us at 4 mafia (obviously impossible).

now chairs could be mafia hoping another townie would be really dumb and join him on lynch of someone who was town so his other two scum buddies could quick hammer... but all of this is relying on UoS being town...

[chairs]

I will have time tomorrow to post.  Have been killer busy so far this week and it isn't letting up.

I'm assuming chairs expected a quick hammer?  That moment of truth comment was just odd.  Not like he put him to L-1.

Seems to me, expecting a triple quick hammer means chairs knows he's voting for town...

I'm not expecting a quick hammer, but voting does make it a possibility.

why haven't you unvoted?

Why would I unvote? Ultimately, the die has to be cast.

I will have time tomorrow to post.  Have been killer busy so far this week and it isn't letting up.

I'm assuming chairs expected a quick hammer?  That moment of truth comment was just odd.  Not like he put him to L-1.

Seems to me, expecting a triple quick hammer means chairs knows he's voting for town...

this scenario isn't possible...

what you are implying is that chair's is mafia and knew he would be voting for town and then expected three other scumbuddies to join him to quick hammer, which would put us at 4 mafia (obviously impossible).

now chairs could be mafia hoping another townie would be really dumb and join him on lynch of someone who was town so his other two scum buddies could quick hammer... but all of this is relying on UoS being town...

If I were Mafia I absolutely wouldn't vote first, instead hoping to rely on Town to plug a mislynch.


unvote so you have time to explain why I shouldn't be voting, though, just in case.

[Awaclus]

So, everyone except me and UoS were online at the same time and a quickhammer didn't happen. I guess that doesn't mean much though since scum might not want to try pulling off a triple quickhammer even if they could have.

[yuma]

unvote so you have time to explain why I shouldn't be voting, though, just in case.

Really I think it is premature to vote and to declare that you have "decided" before 1. UoS has even posted today at all. 2. before both ash and gkrieg have posted things that they have said they want to say 3. without ever explaining why you are voting for UoS--are you trying to be like Awaclus? We have one of him and I think that is enough.

But really the main reason is that if you are town and UoS is town then the 3 mafia could conceivably quickhammer (this would require the masons to be lying in this scenario but as we haven't completely and totally discounted that possibility I think it is just better to be safe. It isn't giving anything up, you aren't sacrificing anything. You can still vote for UoS in a few days. It is a low risk zero reward scenario and it will just make everyone else around breathe a little bit easier and instead of talking about whether or not we should be voting we can be talking about who to vote for and why

[yuma]

So, everyone except me and UoS were online at the same time and a quickhammer didn't happen. I guess that doesn't mean much though since scum might not want to try pulling off a triple quickhammer even if they could have.

or you are scum so you weren't around to quick hammer... or UoS is scum so mafia couldn't/wouldn't want to quick hammer

[ashersky]

I will have time tomorrow to post.  Have been killer busy so far this week and it isn't letting up.

I'm assuming chairs expected a quick hammer?  That moment of truth comment was just odd.  Not like he put him to L-1.

Seems to me, expecting a triple quick hammer means chairs knows he's voting for town...

this scenario isn't possible...

what you are implying is that chair's is mafia and knew he would be voting for town and then expected three other scumbuddies to join him to quick hammer, which would put us at 4 mafia (obviously impossible).

now chairs could be mafia hoping another townie would be really dumb and join him on lynch of someone who was town so his other two scum buddies could quick hammer... but all of this is relying on UoS being town...

The quick hammer wasn't possible there -- the voting with the "fear" of a quick hammer was more what I meant. 

I guess it still doesn't make much sense there, I thought it felt like a contrived pull for town cred.

[Awaclus]

So, everyone except me and UoS were online at the same time and a quickhammer didn't happen. I guess that doesn't mean much though since scum might not want to try pulling off a triple quickhammer even if they could have.

or you are scum so you weren't around to quick hammer... or UoS is scum so mafia couldn't/wouldn't want to quick hammer

Well, I know I'm not scum, I was mostly considering the implications regarding UoS and chairs. If we assume that mafia has the ability to quickhammer without the risk of someone unvoting and making the quickhammerers look awkward, then either UoS or chairs must be scum. But obviously quickhammering is risky, and it's possible that mafia wouldn't want to try it even if they could.

[yuma]

so are we going to lynch awaclus today or what?

[Awaclus]

so are we going to lynch awaclus today or what?

No.

[ashersky]

For referencem, claimed VTs post count:

chairs - 50
UOS - 108
yuma - 407
Awaclus - 118
Jimmmmm - 71

[ashersky]

Re-read of days 1-3, with notes, of Jimmmmm:

Day 1:

#1 - fluff
#2 - Mason theory; thinks 2nd mason doesn't need to claim Day 1, doesn't think scum claims Masons on D1
#3 - Mason theory; clarifies he isn't against the 2nd mason claiming, but doesn't feel it is required
#4 - fluff
#5 - sorry for lurking/check-in post
#6 - asks if a UB should claim
#7 - answers his own question with a yes, misunderstands how UB works, claims not a UB
#8 - responds to me pointing out we had discussed the UB claim thing already
#9 - responds to me correcting his misunderstanding of the UB
#10 - sorry for lurking/check-in post; states will give PPS a read
#11 - responds to faust complaining about Jimmmmm's lurking
#12 - READ pps is "Frustated Townish"
#13 - READ TA is Townish
#14 - responds to yuma asking what PPS has to be frustrated about and basically says his own actions
#15 - scumslip joke
#16 - VOTES! votes for faust demanding Jimmmmm vote for someone
#17 - asks if Faust is the other mason
#18 - or the UB
#19 - found faust's claim, unvotes
#20 - asks if forgetting a scum role constitutes a townslip; is in response to faust not trusting his gut scumread on WW
#21 - continues conversation with faust, asks how hard it is not to pay attention to a possible setup
#22 - concedes in his argument with faust that forgetting Godfather might be a good enough townslip for a D1 pass
#23 - agrees with me that we should not lynch gkrieg (yuma's idea)
#24 - asks why he is on PPS's will not lynch list
#25 - can't find reasons for WW votes and asks for case
#26 - READ not loving PPS, yuma, or TA lynches, says maybe Awa or UOS
#27 - responds to WW's explanation that he wanted to fakeclaim mason - asks if he's claiming
#28 - sees now that it was a plan to fakeclaim, asks why he would want to do that
#29 - thinks WW's reasoning for fakeclaiming mason was bad, would not think he was town
#30 - agrees with PPS that WW's thing was wierd
#31 - says WW would be lynched in response to him saying he wondered what would happen if he did the fakeclaim
#32 - asks UOS to show his main points against Awaclus
#33 - VOTES! for Awaclus, says mostly because he doesn't like other options
#34 - says one of my posts about Awaclus haters is all kinds of scummy

Day 2:

#35 - asks gkrieg what convinces him WW is scum.
#36 - responds to my case on WW, saying my points are correct, but not agreeing that they make WW scum
#37 - corrects some grammer in #36
#38 - READ quotes TA saying he lost motivation and says it sounds scummy
#39 - quotes a part of a TA post saying someone who is town and sure on D1 is a problem
#40 - responds to TA responding to #38, saying he's either town or lying, and either way it's something scum wants to do.

Day 3:

#41 - claims VT
#42 - quotes a yuma post and asks if it is a scumslip
#43 - READ list, with claims listed -- calls yuma frustrated town or conniving scum, but isn't lynching him; doesn't really believe TA's claim, null on the others, basically
#44 - TA asks why, says a few things raised alarm, plus the claim was unconvincing
#45 - TA asks about his mason pass, still insistent it was too risky for scum to claim mason on d1
#46 - fluff
#47 - he explains his scumslip argument against yuma, halfheartedly
#48 - says an outline of the case against yuma wouldn't hurt
#49 - thanks yuma for the outline, says he doesn't buy one line of reasoning (gotten close to lynched but survived)
#50 - yet another "checking in" post, VOTES! for TA, would also lynch UOS or chairs
#51 - VOTES! no lynch, stating "with 8 people" alive as the reason

[ashersky]

My takeaways:

--not a lot of content generated; asks a lot of questions (that's his style); very few votes as well
--some interaction with yuma, some with TA, not much with anyone else
--fairly not committal on reads across the board
--was generally of the mind to think scum wouldn't fakeclaim masons on D1

[ashersky]

Planning to do the other 4 still.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 4.3

Not Voting (7): Awaclus, ashersky, yuma, gkrieg13, UmbrageOfSnow, Jimmmmm, chairs

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Day 4 ends at Oct 11, 05 PM forum time. That is in 4 days and 5+ hours.

[yuma]

So I am not going to do what ash did and do a post by post thing, cause that just doesn't work for me personally.

But what I am doing is going post by post and pulling posts that pop out at me or trends... and what I see from the first person I did this with (chairs) is a trend of unusual behavior. Examples:

This is how it works. If you're scum you lie and claim VT. If you're VT you tell the truth and claim VT. If you are a Town PR you hide yourself by claiming VT.

So we all massclaim VT and that is so informative and helpful that Town just wins the game D1.

If you are a town PR why would you hide as claiming VT? that would be silly.

And if all the mafia claimed VT that would be great! We would just lynch VTs and the pool size would be 3 mafia in 9 instead of 3 mafia in 12! Awesome!

Scumslip.

The only people who could have an assumption regarding PR count at this time are scum.

vote: yuma

calling me out for an alleged scumslip when I have a pretty established meta of hating scumslip and OMGUSing in response to them

I'll be honest, I'm voting you for information.

admitting to voting (PPS in this case) for information, again there is a f.ds meta that people don't like it when people vote for just information, especially when that is given as an excuse when pressured (here chairs just gives it as an excuse from the get go...

sidebar: chairs what information did you get from this lynch and did you use it?

ugh forget it, we're not getting through this Day meaningfully unless we just vote: awaclus, that much is clear.

this post is just weird. I mean, yay! a vote on awaclus, but it is just a weird vote that draws more attention to himself than it does the person he is voting for

vote: gkrieg13 And not moving until the other mason claims.

same as above... it was unnecessary and just brought more focus onto himself

well... moment of truth time, I think.

vote: UoS.

along with this, voting specifically when others have asked him not to. I don't like the timing of the vote, not the vote itself

So what I am seeing is a trend of chairs putting himself in unusual positions that are just kinda awkward. Again I come to the argument that scum does scummy things (at times, most of the time they are going to be just plain townie looking) not weird things. Town does weird things because, they don't care. They are town.

So from this I lean townier on chairs, more so than I do with Jimmmm from ash's synopsis which just left me feeling like he hasn't posted much of anything to really note down as significant (or weird or unusual) and that feels more like a scum!meta to me than what chairs has done thus far.

The one thing that is a hangup is the rationale to use information to lynch pps but then never going back to actually use it. That makes me raise my eyebrows because it isn't weird or unusual. It is quiet and in the background... and scummy.

[yuma]

Yeah okay, no Masons = 2-person scumteam.

Sigh. It is Day4. You should have a decent grasp of the game state and not leave town to try and figure out if this is just ignorance or a ploy for a town-slip.

Please!

I know, and I'm sorry.

this is kinda the one outlier for me on Jimmmmm, the one post that kinda made me sit up. As I said about it before I have a hard time seeing scum pretend to accidentally forget that they are part of a 3 man scum team when ash is in the game given he pretty much never falls for that and instead often votes people because he thinks they are trying to do just that.

[Jimmmmm]

Yeah okay, no Masons = 2-person scumteam.

Sigh. It is Day4. You should have a decent grasp of the game state and not leave town to try and figure out if this is just ignorance or a ploy for a town-slip.

Please!

I know, and I'm sorry.

this is kinda the one outlier for me on Jimmmmm, the one post that kinda made me sit up. As I said about it before I have a hard time seeing scum pretend to accidentally forget that they are part of a 3 man scum team when ash is in the game given he pretty much never falls for that and instead often votes people because he thinks they are trying to do just that.

For the record, my confusion was not about the current setup. For some reason I had it in my head that different rolls could produce different sized scum teams. I could have thought this as either alignment and it should not be taken as a slip.

[yuma]

So I don't want to be that guy because I think being that guy was part of a forum personality from before that I want to shed, but I am getting a little bit antsy in regard to time.

Deadline is Sunday and historically weekends haven't been great for posting, so in my mind I see us realistically having 2ish days. We don't want to rush obviously and we still have time, but at the rate we are going I think we want to be kinda getting everything out there in the next dayish or so and then have a dayish to decide.

UoS not being around is concerning as I really wanted him to double check some of the math above. I asked SS for a prod a while ago, but he seems to be a bit AWOL.

[chairs]

Yeah, also keep in mind that today is basically my last day of meaningful posting until Monday. I'll be able to read things, and maybe make very short comments, but any "please read this wall of quotes" is kind of out for me after today, mostly.

[gkrieg13]

this is very uncharacteristic of UoS. I've never played with him where he was scum. Anyone here played with scum UoS before?

[yuma]

this is very uncharacteristic of UoS. I've never played with him where he was scum. Anyone here played with scum UoS before?

I haven't played with him before when he was mafia, but he does have an ancient history of disappearing suddenly. However I have a feeling this has more to do with computer access problems than anything else given the issues he had with it prior in the game. Hopefully he can sort it out or try to find a way to get on.

[ashersky]

Chairs, D1-D3:

#1 - flavor stuff
#2 - VOTES! for yuma for a scumslip
#3 - agrees with Awaclus's explanation of the scumslip
#4 - says he is town, says WW is an IC.  Says he is anti-mass claim but pro-UB claim, and gives reasons.
#5 - fluff
#6 - quotes faust's hider plan changed for mason crumbing, assuming this is approval
#7 - asks WW if he's not on his radar
#8 - says he wants to hear from faust, I think in reference to yuma thinking faust/PPS were masons
#9 - fluff -- glad yuma is back due to his vig exploits (seems like a soft-vig-claim)
#10 - VOTES! UOS for the lurking after saying he hadn't noticed it
#11 - fluff
#12 - posts immediately after faust claims UB that he is an IC and seems happy (note, no thought whatsoever that he could be lying)
#13 - says based on what yuma said, we need the second mason to claim or to lynch gkrieg
#14 - torn on what he believes more (not sure what the options are)
#15 - VOTES! for PPS, is the 3rd vote on the early wagon
#16 - re-votes PPS, says just in case he isn't already, no content or posts in-between
#17 - says he's voting PPS for "information"
#18 - called out for that by Hydrad, who says he's nullified the effect by stating it, but argues there was enough interaction from before the vote to make the lynch worthwhile
#19 - says TA is his second choice
#20 - VOTES! WW without comment
#21 - comes in and says he was going to switch to PPS but the last couple of pages (fake mason claim plan) happened and was fine with WW
#22 - later says last chance to post, VOTES! PPS to L-1
#23 - READS says WW, Awaclus, faust are all scummy

Day 2:

#24 - seems surprised faust died, expected the mason death
#25 - now says mild town on Awaclus, after ending D1 with him in the scummy pile
#26 - then says forget it, VOTES awaclus to end the discussion of Awaclus
#27 - thinks we need a popsquiz
#28 - defends that thought, says it gets us out of a rut, doesn't want to read yuma vs. Awaclus anymore

Day 3:

#29 - votes gkrieg, says won't change until other mason claims
#30 - claims VT
#31 - lists claimed VTs, says he supposes he could go for a VT lynch
#32 - says if anyone is going to fake claim masons at f.ds, it's ashersky, only supports no lynch if it reduces the lynch pool, which it wouldn't here
#33 - says he doesn't think a mason will be NKed (note: one wasn't)
#34 - says he doesn't think TA's death is useful for information, looks forward to reads from UOS
#35 - VOTES! no lynch anyway, even though he argued against it
#36 - post edit
#37 - fluff
#38 - popsquiz -- says scum to town is yuma - masons - TA - Awaclus - Jimmmmm - UOS
#39 - calls out a scumslip from TA


And that's it.  Here are key points, to me:

--all of his votes are suspect.  Votes yuma for a scumslip on D1 but doesn't vote TA when he calls one out (albeit, after a no lynch was hammered).  Votes PPS "for information" which is scummy.  Vote WW without a reason, which can be scummy.  Puts PPS to L-1.  D2 he votes Awaclus after saying he thinks he town, then isn't involved in the lynch.  On day 3, he votes the mason, then votes no lynch after disagreeing with no lynch.
--he reacted to faust's claim as if he knew faust could not be lying.
--seemed to softclaim vig, which could have been for towncred (note: possible town narrative there was to draw an NK)
--I see his interactions with UOS and Awaclus as scummy (in that they could be partners)

[ashersky]

Side note: if Awaclus and yuma are scum together here, they auto-win scum performance of the year.

[yuma]

I'll repeat this question for chairs as he may have missed it that wall of text:

Chairs: you said you voted pps for information. He was lynched. So what information did you, specifically, get out of his lynch and did you actually use it?

[chairs]

I'll repeat this question for chairs as he may have missed it that wall of text:

Chairs: you said you voted pps for information. He was lynched. So what information did you, specifically, get out of his lynch and did you actually use it?

Well, it came off as UoS/Jimmmm/Awaclus being more scummy, and I think if we assume the scumteam is all in VTs, then that's probably the team.

[chairs]

Argument could be made that actually it paints you as a little scummier, but I don't see who I'd trade out on that team for you except maybe Jim because he seems scummy-by-default.

[yuma]

I'll repeat this question for chairs as he may have missed it that wall of text:

Chairs: you said you voted pps for information. He was lynched. So what information did you, specifically, get out of his lynch and did you actually use it?

Well, it came off as UoS/Jimmmm/Awaclus being more scummy, and I think if we assume the scumteam is all in VTs, then that's probably the team.

Well did you use this information Day2 is what I am wondering? I am less interested in what you think of the information now but more what you did with it immediately afterward.

Otherwise it seems really convenient that the information you got out of it only pertains to people that are currently alive...

[ashersky]

Gkrieg, I think it's time.

vote: chairs

I do plan on a reread of UOS next, but with the deadline and weekend looming, I'm skipping to the end for you all. 

[gkrieg13]

agreed

vote: chairs

[Jimmmmm]

I have a bad feeling about this...

[Jimmmmm]

It seems too easy. If the scum team is really chairs/Awaclus/UOS, then it seems Town has won, as ash, gkrieg and yuma seem to have pretty much decided that's the team. What exactly are they doing to try to win the game then?

[yuma]

I have no intent of voting until actually given a reason to do so, and I encourage others to do the same. I don't feel like I have been given one.

Show me how chairs is a better lynch than Awaclus and then I'll consider it. So far it seems like there is some behind the curtains stuff going on and I don't know if it is masons talking or scum planning.

bring it out into the open guys or this isn't going to go anywhere.

You guys do realize if you are wrong (and if you are town) it is now much, much easier for scum to quick hammer...

[Jimmmmm]

On a completely unrelated topic, it's good to have you back because at least now someone other than me can reference my vig onslaught in Dynasty Warriors Mafia 

It's my counterargument to the accepted logic that vigs are negative utility.

This doesn't seem like a softclaim to me at all.

[yuma]

well at the least everyone else can confirm (I already know) that the scenario of Jimmm/yuma/X being on a scum team with chairs being town isn't possible as Jimmmm and I aren't quick hammering here...

[Jimmmmm]

well at the least everyone else can confirm (I already know) that the scenario of Jimmm/yuma/X being on a scum team with chairs being town isn't possible as Jimmmm and I aren't quick hammering here...

Yep, at least there's that.

[yuma]

well at the least everyone else can confirm (I already know) that the scenario of Jimmm/yuma/X being on a scum team with chairs being town isn't possible as Jimmmm and I aren't quick hammering here...

Yep, at least there's that.

Huzzah!

I still think the mafons should unvote or explain themselves.

[Awaclus]

Why are the masons voting first?

[yuma]

Why are the masons voting first?

hey cool! now I can confirm that it isn't awaclus/yuma/X team either with chairs town

Hope it isn't a Jimmm/Awaclus/X team

[Jimmmmm]

well at the least everyone else can confirm (I already know) that the scenario of Jimmm/yuma/X being on a scum team with chairs being town isn't possible as Jimmmm and I aren't quick hammering here...

Yep, at least there's that.

Huzzah!

I still think the mafons should unvote or explain themselves.

I agree on principle, but I also think it's fairly unlikely that none of the three of the them are scum.

In fact it's confirmed now since if chairs is Town, there are no two scum in you, me and Awaclus.

PPE

[yuma]

although that makes the liklihood of chairs being scum quite a bit higher if these pairings can be eliminated...

[yuma]

jimmmm what do you think of my theory that scum team is ash/gkrieg/awaclus?

[Awaclus]

In fact it's confirmed now since if chairs is Town, there are no two scum in you, me and Awaclus.

Huh, then it's just basically confirmed that either chairs is scum, or the masons are.

[Awaclus]

jimmmm what do you think of my theory that scum team is ash/gkrieg/awaclus?

Want to know what I think of it?

[Jimmmmm]

In fact it's confirmed now since if chairs is Town, there are no two scum in you, me and Awaclus.

Huh, then it's just basically confirmed that either chairs is scum, or the masons are.

Exactly. If chairs is Town, he knows for a fact that ash and gk are scum (barring scum failing to take the opportunity to quickhammer for some reason).

[gkrieg13]

This confirms to me that chairs is scum.  He hasn't had a good vote thus far.  See what ash's conclusion on chairs for why we are voting the way we are.

PPEs

[Jimmmmm]

jimmmm what do you think of my theory that scum team is ash/gkrieg/awaclus?

Umm... I'm still somewhat suspicious of you being the x if the team is ash/gkrieg/x, but really at this stage I'd probably rather figure out the ash/gk part than the x part.

[Jimmmmm]

chairs, if you're Town you have solid information now. Convince us. Also, you may as well vote for one of them.

[gkrieg13]

request prod on UoS

[Jimmmmm]

If it helps, here are the possible scum teams:

Masons/chairs
Masons/Awaclus
Masons/Jimmmmm
Masons/UOS
Masons/yuma
chairs/Awaclus/Jimmmmm
chairs/Awaclus/UOS
chairs/Awaclus/yuma
chairs/Jimmmmm/UOS
chairs/Jimmmmm/yuma
chairs/UOS/yuma

[gkrieg13]

request prod on UoS

It has been 6 days since he's posted, so either we need his vote (if he's town) or he's scum.

[Jimmmmm]

request prod on UoS

It has been 6 days since he's posted, so either we need his vote (if he's town) or he's scum.

Hmm. If he doesn't come back, and no one subs in for him, we just have to lynch him right?

[Jimmmmm]

ash/gkrieg, what kind of things have you discussed in your QT?

[ashersky]

He's now 100% confirmed as scum now.  Which was the plan.  Yes, we took a risk of a quick hammer for the loss, but we considered that when deciding who to vote together.

I'm not going to convince Yuma that anyone is a better lynch than Awaclus because he's not going to allow that to happen.  We knew that last night.

For us, it was about being sure of town, narrowing down the possibilities.  I did want to get more rereads posted, but time and life caught up to me.  I was looking for reactions, but activity levels have dropped, too, and we have a day before the weekend hits.

A no lynch is a loss.

We have a 3/5 chance.  We took Yuma off the table first.  That lowered us to 3/4 or 2/4 if we're wrong, but felt okay.  I was fairly convinced that chairs is scummiest based on his voting history.  I convinced gkrieg of that, too.

We also knew that voting together would create opportunities to POE partners.

This was all planned.  It just got accelerated.

[ashersky]

100% to us, anyway.

[ashersky]

On a separate note -- I want to point out to everyone that when I railed and railed against fake claiming Mason's, no one agreed with me, ever, and it was horrible.  And yet now everyone just assumes it's a possibility? 

I take it as a retroactive personal insult from anyone who played or spectated that game.

[ashersky]

ash/gkrieg, what kind of things have you discussed in your QT?

You, for one.

[ashersky]

request prod on UoS

It has been 6 days since he's posted, so either we need his vote (if he's town) or he's scum.

Hmm. If he doesn't come back, and no one subs in for him, we just have to lynch him right?

I assume so...unless he's mod killed, which is the same thing.

[silverspawn]

I will not get a replacement for UoS.

If he doesn't post until the day is over, he will be modkilled.

[ashersky]

If it helps, here are the possible scum teams:

Masons/chairs
Masons/Awaclus
Masons/Jimmmmm
Masons/UOS
Masons/yuma
chairs/Awaclus/Jimmmmm
chairs/Awaclus/UOS
chairs/Awaclus/yuma
chairs/Jimmmmm/UOS
chairs/Jimmmmm/yuma
chairs/UOS/yuma

So statistically, 7/11 chance chairs is scum, based on this?

[ashersky]

And also, as mentioned, 100% confirmed scum, to us.

[Jimmmmm]

If it helps, here are the possible scum teams:

Masons/chairs
Masons/Awaclus
Masons/Jimmmmm
Masons/UOS
Masons/yuma
chairs/Awaclus/Jimmmmm
chairs/Awaclus/UOS
chairs/Awaclus/yuma
chairs/Jimmmmm/UOS
chairs/Jimmmmm/yuma
chairs/UOS/yuma

So statistically, 7/11 chance chairs is scum, based on this?

I assume you're having a jab at me?

For me it'd be only 4/7.

[ashersky]

Here's the thing, isn't it 100% scum if you trust us and 100% town if you don't?

If we were scum, we wouldn't vote our partner here.  That wouldn't make any sense, since we just proved the person we voted is scum.

So, the scum team is either from the six on the bottom or the five on top.

Chairs (and his partners) will now have to convince one townie to vote a mason and they win.

[ashersky]

ash/gkrieg, what kind of things have you discussed in your QT?

You, for one.

Also, in case you were wondering, we were split on you during the night.

[yuma]

Alright I'll bite. I would say chairs has better chance of being scum than ash/gk. I still don't see a reason to vote chairs from his play but the quick hammer reasoning is compelling.

Plus I would rather lose to fake masons than being fooled by semi lurking...

So Vote: chairs

[Jimmmmm]

Here's the thing, isn't it 100% scum if you trust us and 100% town if you don't?

Well it's a percentage scum equal to the percentage that I trust you, which is probably somewhere around 40%.

[Jimmmmm]

Ai. Confirming not hammering at this stage.

[Jimmmmm]

I will not get a replacement for UoS.

If he doesn't post until the day is over, he will be modkilled.

Hang on, so if we lynch someone other than him, he'll be killed as well?

[yuma]

I will not get a replacement for UoS.

If he doesn't post until the day is over, he will be modkilled.

Hang on, so if we lynch someone other than him, he'll be killed as well?

unvote

[chairs]

I'm Town.

The masons voting for me is kind of making my "if anybody would do this, it'd be ashersky" paranoia feel more justified.

If it's masons-are-scum, I'd guess UoS is their likeliest 3rd person, probably.

Should I vote ashersky now or hold off so we give UoS a chance to post?

[yuma]

So... here is a problem.

If UoS is town and doesn't show up before end of day we have zero chance of winning.

Like I said before we need all 4 town players to vote for the same player (or mafia has to bus). If UoS is gone there can't be 4 town votes on mafia because there would only be 3 town players voting and mafia would have zero incentive to bus because just stalling to a no-lynch would win them the game (or would force town to go through on a mislynch)

So I don't know what to do. I am kinda inclined to just lynch chairs and let UoS die. If both are scum, all of a sudden town is in a great position (given that mafia will only get 1 NK in this process compared to the 2 NKs they would get if we lynched 2 mafia in a row). But it is a risk because if either are town then it is game over, but if UoS is town it kinda already looks like game over cause he isn't showing up.

[chairs]

Yeah, I know the feeling. If we lynch ash and he's Town, it doesn't matter that UoS dies because whatever. If we lynch ash and he's scum, but UoS isn't his partner, well, that bones us too. I think no matter whether you believe me that I'm Town or not, the best play here is to see if UoS manages to return before deadline.

[yuma]

Ai. Confirming not hammering at this stage.

well now we can remove all possibilities of Jimmmm being scum except being scum with chairs.

chairs/Awaclus/Jimmmmm
chairs/Jimmmmm/UOS
chairs/Jimmmmm/yuma

are still possible, except for the last from my perspective obviously...

masons/x are still a possibility as long as X isn't Jimmmm

[yuma]

Yeah, I know the feeling. If we lynch ash and he's Town, it doesn't matter that UoS dies because whatever. If we lynch ash and he's scum, but UoS isn't his partner, well, that bones us too. I think no matter whether you believe me that I'm Town or not, the best play here is to see if UoS manages to return before deadline.

is it? If I think there is a good chance that both you and UoS are mafia then we should try to get a 2 mafia for one town while we can and lynch you before he shows up.

[chairs]

Yeah, I know the feeling. If we lynch ash and he's Town, it doesn't matter that UoS dies because whatever. If we lynch ash and he's scum, but UoS isn't his partner, well, that bones us too. I think no matter whether you believe me that I'm Town or not, the best play here is to see if UoS manages to return before deadline.

is it? If I think there is a good chance that both you and UoS are mafia then we should try to get a 2 mafia for one town while we can and lynch you before he shows up.

Well, yes, I think I can make the same argument for lynching ashersky before UoS returns.

[yuma]

interesting that both people on the board right now (chair/one of the masons) both voted "first".

chairs voted and then unvoted due to pressure. and now the masons have broken the deadlock.

generally I think that mafia doesn't want to vote first given the potential to eliminate pairings like we just did.

I think the mason's get more credit for their voting given that a two person hammer is easier to pull off and thus easier to eliminate than three person hammers which are hard to pull off and we couldn't really get anything out of that circumstance (partially because it was short lived)

[chairs]

Hypothetically speaking, let's say both the Masons and myself are Town.

This means scum is in UoS/Jimmmm/Awaclus/Yuma.

We know Jimmmmm isn't scum EVEN IF the scumteam is UoS/Jimmmmm/x, because he could've just won the game (trading 1 Town for 1 Mafia modkilled here still hands Mafia the win once the NK rolls around).

So either I'm scum (this is not the case), or the Masons are scum, or the team is Yuma/Awaclus/UoS.

The only argument I can see for yuma and Awaclus being on the same team is that on D1 you were SO anti-Awaclus that nobody in their right mind would possibly pair you two on a team.

That being said, your frustration read as genuine, so I don't think this team configuration is likely, which leaves:

Either I'm lying scum, or Masons are lying scum.

I think you're Town (again really because of your play on D1), so from my perspective, the scum team has to be:

Masons/UoS
Masons/Awaclus

The question for me then is "Is it more likely that Awaclus is scum, or that UoS is scum?". If the former, I must wait for UoS to post. If the latter, I benefit from (but do not require) UoS to post before lynching a mason.

[Jimmmmm]

So... here is a problem.

If UoS is town and doesn't show up before end of day we have zero chance of winning.

Like I said before we need all 4 town players to vote for the same player (or mafia has to bus). If UoS is gone there can't be 4 town votes on mafia because there would only be 3 town players voting and mafia would have zero incentive to bus because just stalling to a no-lynch would win them the game (or would force town to go through on a mislynch)

So I don't know what to do. I am kinda inclined to just lynch chairs and let UoS die. If both are scum, all of a sudden town is in a great position (given that mafia will only get 1 NK in this process compared to the 2 NKs they would get if we lynched 2 mafia in a row). But it is a risk because if either are town then it is game over, but if UoS is town it kinda already looks like game over cause he isn't showing up.

Yeah. I think if UOS is getting modkilled, we should just no-lynch or lynch him. We have to assume he's scum since otherwise the game is just lost. Given then that scum is dying Today, we don't want to risk killing Town as well, and we'll give ourselves a more informed decision Tomorrow than trying to find non-UOS scum Today.

[Awaclus]

I will not get a replacement for UoS.

If he doesn't post until the day is over, he will be modkilled.

Will he be modkilled instead of the lynch, or in addition to the lynch?

[chairs]

So here's the kicker. If we swing and hit here, we verify the masons are either scum or town, 100% guaranteed. If we lynch UoS, the NK is, say, you, and then we're left with 2 scum and 1 non-Mason Town that has to decide if the VTs or the Masons are telling the truth.

[chairs]

Basically what I'm saying is, yes, you trim down the Town pool, but you're still left (assuming UoS is scum) trying to figure out if the Masons are scum or not.

[chairs]

I will not get a replacement for UoS.

If he doesn't post until the day is over, he will be modkilled.

Will he be modkilled instead of the lynch, or in addition to the lynch?

Good question. I assumed it was in addition.

[yuma]

Hypothetically speaking, let's say both the Masons and myself are Town.

I thought we eliminated this possibility

[yuma]

chairs, if you're Town you have solid information now. Convince us. Also, you may as well vote for one of them.

Also... I still say hold off on voting. Ash and G should as well now that we have this new information

[chairs]

Hypothetically speaking, let's say both the Masons and myself are Town.

I thought we eliminated this possibility

I... don't think we did. We eliminated the possibility that Jimmmmm is scum, I think, but not the possibility that, say, UoS/Awaclus/Yuma is the scumteam.

[chairs]

I think, however, we can argue that your unvote before Awaclus posts makes that unlikely, not that it was likely even before based on your D1 play.

[Jimmmmm]

Hypothetically speaking, let's say both the Masons and myself are Town.

I thought we eliminated this possibility

I... don't think we did. We eliminated the possibility that Jimmmmm is scum, I think, but not the possibility that, say, UoS/Awaclus/Yuma is the scumteam.

Awaclus and yuma would have hammered you if that was the case.

[chairs]

Hypothetically speaking, let's say both the Masons and myself are Town.

I thought we eliminated this possibility

I... don't think we did. We eliminated the possibility that Jimmmmm is scum, I think, but not the possibility that, say, UoS/Awaclus/Yuma is the scumteam.

Awaclus and yuma would have hammered you if that was the case.

That's why my next post was:

I think, however, we can argue that your unvote before Awaclus posts makes that unlikely, not that it was likely even before based on your D1 play.

[Jimmmmm]

So here's the kicker. If we swing and hit here, we verify the masons are either scum or town, 100% guaranteed. If we lynch UoS, the NK is, say, you, and then we're left with 2 scum and 1 non-Mason Town that has to decide if the VTs or the Masons are telling the truth.

I know you know I'm Town (regardless of what you are), but it's still probably better to remove me (or whoever else scum kill) from the lynch pool before making the game-deciding decision.

[chairs]

So here's the kicker. If we swing and hit here, we verify the masons are either scum or town, 100% guaranteed. If we lynch UoS, the NK is, say, you, and then we're left with 2 scum and 1 non-Mason Town that has to decide if the VTs or the Masons are telling the truth.

I know you know I'm Town (regardless of what you are), but it's still probably better to remove me (or whoever else scum kill) from the lynch pool before making the game-deciding decision.

Fair enough.

I say we vote for UoS then, so we can get the flip and move on.

[Jimmmmm]

I am pretty sure chairs is town.

yuma, I stumbled on this. I know it was from Day 1, but is the assertion still relevant?

[Jimmmmm]

So here's the kicker. If we swing and hit here, we verify the masons are either scum or town, 100% guaranteed. If we lynch UoS, the NK is, say, you, and then we're left with 2 scum and 1 non-Mason Town that has to decide if the VTs or the Masons are telling the truth.

I know you know I'm Town (regardless of what you are), but it's still probably better to remove me (or whoever else scum kill) from the lynch pool before making the game-deciding decision.

Fair enough.

I say we vote for UoS then, so we can get the flip and move on.

Well it's still probably better to wait and see if he emerges in the next day or so. It doesn't matter if we lynch him or no-lynch. Although I guess no-lynching is gameable if he's scum, to post just before deadline without giving us a chance to organise a lynch. Not sure ss would let him get away with that though.

[chairs]

So here's the kicker. If we swing and hit here, we verify the masons are either scum or town, 100% guaranteed. If we lynch UoS, the NK is, say, you, and then we're left with 2 scum and 1 non-Mason Town that has to decide if the VTs or the Masons are telling the truth.

I know you know I'm Town (regardless of what you are), but it's still probably better to remove me (or whoever else scum kill) from the lynch pool before making the game-deciding decision.

Fair enough.

I say we vote for UoS then, so we can get the flip and move on.

Well it's still probably better to wait and see if he emerges in the next day or so. It doesn't matter if we lynch him or no-lynch. Although I guess no-lynching is gameable if he's scum, to post just before deadline without giving us a chance to organise a lynch. Not sure ss would let him get away with that though.

If UoS posts less than 24 hours before deadline, could deadline be extended for 24 hours to allow for discussion in the event of his return and prevent the possibility of gaming the modkill?

[yuma]

I am pretty sure chairs is town.

yuma, I stumbled on this. I know it was from Day 1, but is the assertion still relevant?

If it were day1 then yes it would still be relevant. But we have more info now. So it s relevant but is a drop in the bucket

[yuma]

chairs, if you're Town you have solid information now. Convince us. Also, you may as well vote for one of them.

Also... I still say hold off on voting. Ash and G should as well now that we have this new information

Specifically ash and g should unvote because the best play right now for mafia might be to lynch chairs immediately and see uos die of a mod kill if he is town. Because that hasn't happened nor has chairs been lynched honestly kinda makes me think at least one is scum. Probably both

[Jimmmmm]

chairs, if you're Town you have solid information now. Convince us. Also, you may as well vote for one of them.

Also... I still say hold off on voting. Ash and G should as well now that we have this new information

Specifically ash and g should unvote because the best play right now for mafia might be to lynch chairs immediately and see uos die of a mod kill if he is town. Because that hasn't happened nor has chairs been lynched honestly kinda makes me think at least one is scum. Probably both

I don't think it's possible for only 1 of them to be scum.

[yuma]

chairs, if you're Town you have solid information now. Convince us. Also, you may as well vote for one of them.

Also... I still say hold off on voting. Ash and G should as well now that we have this new information

Specifically ash and g should unvote because the best play right now for mafia might be to lynch chairs immediately and see uos die of a mod kill if he is town. Because that hasn't happened nor has chairs been lynched honestly kinda makes me think at least one is scum. Probably both

I don't think it's possible for only 1 of them to be scum.

I am referring to uos and chairs in this situation

[Jimmmmm]

chairs, if you're Town you have solid information now. Convince us. Also, you may as well vote for one of them.

Also... I still say hold off on voting. Ash and G should as well now that we have this new information

Specifically ash and g should unvote because the best play right now for mafia might be to lynch chairs immediately and see uos die of a mod kill if he is town. Because that hasn't happened nor has chairs been lynched honestly kinda makes me think at least one is scum. Probably both

I don't think it's possible for only 1 of them to be scum.

I am referring to uos and chairs in this situation

Oh right. I suspect it's fairly likely they're either both scum or both Town.

[yuma]

So, I am at the point that the only way I think ash/gkrieg are mafia is if their partner is awaclus. For me that is the only conceivable option.

Because if they were mafia and he were town, I think their approach to today would have been to readdress me to ask me to reiterate my feelings about awaclus. Concede that they are valid (but in this case erroneous) and then vote with me and let their scum partner hammer it home for the win...

That would have been a great game plan and honestly one that I was anticipating being a little bit wary off, but I probably still would have gone for it because.... I really, really think awaclus is mafia.

But they didn't do that when it would have been the best course of action by far if the scum team were:
ash/gk/chairs
ash/gk/jimmmm
ash/gk/UoS (although I guess UoS not being around could have made things go poorly for them but it isn't like there wasn't still time for this to go forward)

So that means it is either that ash/gk are partners with awaclus

or

ash/gk are town and thus chairs is scum.

I think I am going to vote for chairs. The question I want answered right now from everyone because I am still not sure what the best course of action is:

do we vote chairs now and let UoS die via modkill and hope he is mafia as well and try and get that 2 mafia for 1 town NK deal or do we wait as long as possible for UoS to come back so that he doesn't get modkilled and still lynch chairs?

[gkrieg13]

Ok just skimmed the thread. I don't think I will unvote for a few reasons.  There are six situations that could happen. 

If UoS is scum, if we no-lynch, we get 1 for 1.  That seems like a horrible idea.

If UoS is scum, if we lynch other scum, we get 2 for 1, which is pretty good for us.

If UoS is scum, if we lynch town, we lose.

If UoS is town, if we no-lynch, we lose.

If UoS is town, if we lynch scum, we lose.  Can't happen unless scum bus if UoS doesn't show up.

If UoS is town, if we lynch town, we lose.

If we lynch UoS, we have another day of LyLo or we lose. 

So what I get out of this if I did these calculations correctly, is we lose if UoS is town no matter what, assuming he doesn't come back.  So we should probably lynch today, so there is no point in me unvoting

Can someone check to make sure I did this right?

[Jimmmmm]

At the end of the day, if UOS isn't coming back, we must assume that he is scum, since otherwise the game is lost. The right course of action is therefore to lynch UOS, giving us our best chance of surviving to Tomorrow, and simplifying the decision of who else to lynch.

[ashersky]

So here's the kicker. If we swing and hit here, we verify the masons are either scum or town, 100% guaranteed. If we lynch UoS, the NK is, say, you, and then we're left with 2 scum and 1 non-Mason Town that has to decide if the VTs or the Masons are telling the truth.

I know you know I'm Town (regardless of what you are), but it's still probably better to remove me (or whoever else scum kill) from the lynch pool before making the game-deciding decision.

Fair enough.

I say we vote for UoS then, so we can get the flip and move on.

Well it's still probably better to wait and see if he emerges in the next day or so. It doesn't matter if we lynch him or no-lynch. Although I guess no-lynching is gameable if he's scum, to post just before deadline without giving us a chance to organise a lynch. Not sure ss would let him get away with that though.

If UoS posts less than 24 hours before deadline, could deadline be extended for 24 hours to allow for discussion in the event of his return and prevent the possibility of gaming the modkill?

Looking to save your partner?

[silverspawn]

If UoS posts less than 24 hours before deadline, could deadline be extended for 24 hours to allow for discussion in the event of his return and prevent the possibility of gaming the modkill?

Since this day is already 'shortened' by 3 days - yes. If he posts within the current deadline, I will extend it by 48 hours. If he does not, the day will end at the current deadline.

[ashersky]

If UoS posts less than 24 hours before deadline, could deadline be extended for 24 hours to allow for discussion in the event of his return and prevent the possibility of gaming the modkill?

Since this day is already 'shortened' by 3 days - yes. If he posts within the current deadline, I will extend it by 48 hours. If he does not, the day will end at the current deadline.

I want to say this is incredibly unfair to us (here I mean town, but really all players).  No player should, for any reason, valid or not, ever be allowed to lurk for ten consecutive IRL days at any point in any game, and especially at this late and important a juncture, even if they are scum.

This is basically the mod giving a player consent to lurk for over a week, and then giving his team extra days to ensure he doesn't get lynched for it.

I've already pointed out that chairs begging for extra time points strongly to them being partners.  A lynch + modkill of scum is a HUGE boon for us at this point, given the situation we're in.  We go from 4 v 3 to 3 v 1 with a mason!  That's the best possible outcome for us.

Now, we lose that specific advantage given to us by a lurking scum player based on his partner begging for help.

To be fair, let's consider the off-chance that UOS is town with us -- I would say the mod giving us an unfair advantage is no better.  As much as we might want it, we can't get extra chances from the mod just because we've failed to lynch scum so far and now we've lost one of our required votes (scum realizes we can't lynch them without UOS, of course).  In the same way that we all would agree the only fair punishment for a scum player's harmful and excessive lurking is something that results in a benefit for town, scum would (rightly) feel that the only fair punishment for a town player's lurking would be something that helps them.  I'd be livid as scum if UOS was town.  The decision to let him lurk to deadline was already a gift -- now there's even more.

This is all moot because we've always stood firmly with a "mod's game, mod's call" belief system here, and I don't see a reason to change that.  Just because the only reason we've ever officially extended a game day in the past was technical issues with f.ds doesn't mean mods can't come up with other reasons.  And I'm sure silverspawn has his own reasons, whether it be to make sure his game doesn't end on a modkill or for some idea of "fun" or whatever.  But I think it's important to put my opinion out there -- and I've been getting more strongly anti-lurking the longer we've been playing mafia here.

(Side bar: I did check the VLA thread -- there is nothing there.  That's the agreed upon location to report valid, honest, IRL reasons for disappearing.  That doesn't preclude something unexpected happening, but we can't just assume it because UOS is a good guy.  Voltgloss was a phenomenal guy, but he left multiple games at terrible times (for valid IRL reasons, but without telling us) where we had to sub him or modkill him because it was the only and right thing to do.)

[ashersky]

That said, what can we do about it?  Probably nothing.

I think the only options are to just lynch chairs anyway and move on, or lynch UOS as a stand-in modkill.

I'm pretty set that the team is chairs/UOS/x anyway.

[ashersky]

I would note that, scum knowing their partner UOS can't be counted on changes the "quicklynch" dynamic a lot.  It basically ruled out the fabled "triple hammer" for example.

[yuma]

So what I get out of this if I did these calculations correctly, is we lose if UoS is town no matter what, assuming he doesn't come back.  So we should probably lynch today, so there is no point in me unvoting

Can someone check to make sure I did this right?

And now my question is this:

Which one do we want? Do we want to wait until the end of day to lynch UoS?

Do we want to wait until the end of day to lynch chairs and have UoS get modkilled?

Do we want to do the lynch now so that UoS can't post in the space between then and now and get UoS modkilled? (really it is UoS getting himself modkilled at this point, so I wouldn't feel bad about this because it has been 7 days now...)

[yuma]

That said, what can we do about it?  Probably nothing.

I think the only options are to just lynch chairs anyway and move on, or lynch UOS as a stand-in modkill.

I'm pretty set that the team is chairs/UOS/x anyway.

If you think chairs is mafia, and  you say that you "know" chairs is mafia then the best option is to lynch chairs and move on.

And I agree with you that if you and GK aren't mafia the team is likely chairs/UoS/awaclus, given that Jimmmm didn't hammer and get town!UoS modkilled in the process.

I think we should go for the 2 for 1 deal. It is risking that ash/GK are not mafia. But I think that is a risk I am ok with taking at this point. And it risks UoS not being mafia, but he is probably going to get modkilled regardless of what we do, so I would rather have the decision be in our hands than in the mods.

vote: chairs

[Awaclus]

Vote: chairs

[yuma]

Ugh...

the Who's Online page failed me

[yuma]

well are you fooling me awaclus?

[Awaclus]

I just sort of agreed with your logic.

[yuma]

I just sort of agreed with your logic.

that you are the scum partner of chairs/UoS.

That is good to know!

Well unless you are trolling me then we are probably ok unless it is in fact an ash/GK scum team with someone...

[yuma]

Ok.

So if UoS and chairs both flip mafia here then that will for starters confirm ash/GK as masons. One of them will end up being the NK.

Leaving:

Mason+Jimmmm+Awaclus+yuma alive.

We are still in a mislynch and lose situation but I think an extra confirmed townie in this situation helps even if it makes the numbers weird.

So then for me it comes down to Jimmmm vs Awaclus. I will give this a honest assessment, but I think you all know I have a bias toward one side (with justified reason) but I will try to look at this fairly.

Or have I already mathematically eliminated Jimmmm from the pool....?

Anyways, I'll relook at it. But mostly this is all moot if ash/GK are scum or if Awaclus just hammered for the win...

[Jimmmmm]

There are too many people willing to lynch chairs.

[yuma]

There are too many people willing to lynch chairs.

well he is lynched now...

[Jimmmmm]

There are too many people willing to lynch chairs.

well he is lynched now...

Yeah of course.

[yuma]

There are too many people willing to lynch chairs.

well he is lynched now...

Yeah of course.

I don't know what the alternative was though. Lynch ash/GK? With UoS gone that would mean needing all 4 of us (you, me, awaclus, chairs) to vote for them AND have UoS be their partner because he would get modkilled at the same time.

UoS not being around completely changed the demographic of this game.

[Jimmmmm]

There are too many people willing to lynch chairs.

well he is lynched now...

Yeah of course.

I don't know what the alternative was though. Lynch ash/GK? With UoS gone that would mean needing all 4 of us (you, me, awaclus, chairs) to vote for them AND have UoS be their partner because he would get modkilled at the same time.

UoS not being around completely changed the demographic of this game.

Yes it did. I hope everything's ok with him. As is we're currently betting the entire game on both UOS and chairs being scum, when we only had to bet on UOS being scum for now. Maybe we end up lynching chairs anyway, but on a later Day and with more information. Anyway, I guess the Townies on the wagon disagree with me, so there you go.

[gkrieg13]

I completely agree with ash on this one. But it is a hard position to be in. I hope UoS is ok

[silverspawn]

Thread locked!

[silverspawn]

I can't write flavor for this, sorry.

Final Vote Count Day 4

chairs (4): ashersky, gkrieg13, yuma, Awaclus

Not Voting (3): UmbrageOfSnow, Jimmmmm, chairs

With 7 alive, it took 4 to lynch.

[silverspawn]

chairs has been lynched. He was Twilight Sparkle, a Vanilla Townie.

The mafia team of asherksy, gkrieg13, and Awaclus wins ostensibly flawlessly.

[Jimmmmm]

 

[Witherweaver]

Hey maybe people should listen to me!

Though, admittedly, I went off Awaclus and onto Yuma. 

[Jimmmmm]

yuma, we had it in us! We could have done it!

[Jimmmmm]

Well I feel somewhat validated at least.

[gkrieg13]

Yay we won!

[gkrieg13]

Really we won by lynching anyone without UoS here.  If chairs hadn't worked out I thought it would have been fun to lead the charge to lynch ash.

[Witherweaver]

It's never not wrong to lynch Awaclus.  Never.

[Witherweaver]

It's never not wrong to lynch Awaclus.  Never.

Er, never not right.

[silverspawn]

mvp for this game goes to Awaclus. I agree that his playstyle was extremely anti-town, making it extremely pro-scum, alas a great help in favor of his alignment, and thus mvp worthy. He made town's progress crash and burn.

[gkrieg13]

also yuma was right in the end

[Jimmmmm]

also yuma was right in the end

yuma voted for chairs in the end.

[Witherweaver]

mvp for this game goes to Awaclus. I agree that his playstyle was extremely anti-town, making it extremely pro-scum, alas a great help in favor of his alignment, and thus mvp worthy. He made town's progress crash and burn.

Scum MVP should go to town for refusing to lynch Awaclus.

[gkrieg13]

also yuma was right in the end

yuma voted for chairs in the end.

yuma was right near the end but not at the very end

[faust]

Oh wow. I was completely wrong about yuma/Awaclus.

Well done scum! I want to read your QT now.

[silverspawn]

Now, as of me being the blatantly honest person that I am, I can't hide the fact that I'm pretty disappointment in town's performance this game, overall. I really don't think that scum actually played well, and I think town could and should have won this game, mainly due to two reasons.

Firstly and most importantly:
 

Everyone in thread is doing everything wrong, right? They need 3 M's (given the UB flipped), so it should be DBMMMX (X is anything). We know that two of our letters are D and B (there could be other possibilities maybe, but assuming this will give us an upper bound and should be really close to the actual probability anyway), so we're looking for the probability that 3 out of 4 letters are M. Each M is a 1/10 chance, so this gives us 0.1*0.1*0.1*1*4, so 4/1000 or 1/250. This has to be low enough to just assume ash and gkrieg are scum.

The probability of getting DBMMMX should be 0.05*0.1^4 (if we counted with permutations) so for combinations it's 0.05*0.1^4*120=0.0006. However, we know it's at least DBXXXX, which has a probability of 0.05*0.1*30=0.15, so the probability of DBMMMX given DBXXXX should be 0.0006/(0.15+0.0006)=0.003984. For some reason that came out really close to but not exactly the same as what I got when I did it the other way, so now I'm not confident I did either one right. The 120 is 6!/3! (the number of distinguishable permutations of DBMMMX), and the 30 is 6!/4! (the number of distinguishable permutations of DBXXXX).

Either way, if one of those is really right (and both sound plausible to me? 3 M's given two letters already should be very unlikely), ash and gkrieg are basically caught now, town just has to figure it out.

Jimmmm even brought up the maths. Instead of treating this like a minor-side effect, I think it should have immediately meant an auto-vote for the masons, regardless of reads.

Secondly:

Final Vote Count Day 2

Awaclus (2): chairs, Twistedarcher
Witherweaver (6): gkrieg13, Awaclus, ashersky, UmbrageOfSnow, Witherweaver, yuma
Twistedarcher (1): Hydrad

Not Voting (1): Jimmmmm

With 10 alive, it took 6 to lynch.

Final Vote Count Day 3

yuma (1): Awaclus
chairs (2): ashersky, gkrieg13

No-Lynch (5): UmbrageOfSnow, yuma, Jimmmmm, chairs, Twistedarcher

With 8 alive, it took 5 to no-lynch.

I can't write flavor for this, sorry.

Final Vote Count Day 4

chairs (4): ashersky, gkrieg13, yuma, Awaclus

Not Voting (3): UmbrageOfSnow, Jimmmmm, chairs

With 7 alive, it took 4 to lynch.

Scum collectively drove every single mislynch this game, except for the very first one (which should not have been a lynch...). Why did no-one do any proper wagon analysis?

[Awaclus]

It's never not wrong to lynch Awaclus.  Never.

This is true.

Thanks for the MVP. I still don't think my playstyle is anti-town in general, but it can work that way too.

[skip wooznum]

Must....see......scum qt!

[silverspawn]

Now about the UoS thing: I am shocked and blatantly insulted at ash's reaction, and anyone who agrees with him. Where is your respect or loyalty towards UoS as a person? Why does he need to be punished so badly when you have no idea why he is absent? This is not a case of someone lurking because of laziness. The attitude of treating everyone equally upon the slightest rule violation regardless of context is one I wholeheartedly despise. I will not have it in my games.

I found myself confronted with a decision of

a) replacing UoS
b) modkilling him if he doesn't return

Points for a) > b)

- Town doesn't receive an unfair advantage due to a situation which presumably was no-ones fault
- We don't have a player absent

Points for b) > a)

- Scott basically proved to everyone in the speccy that the masons are lying, so I can't take a replacement from there, which doesn't leave a lot of players remaining. Teproc immediately came to mind, but I didn't feel great about requesting him to reread 30 pages

- I suspected that Teproc might reach the same conclusions Scott did. If I replace him in and that makes scum lose, it's kind of unfair. In any case, my choice of whom I pick directly influences the outcome of the game.

- I usually am biased towards a town win, which I don't want to influence my decision.

- I asked in the Speccy and it's what faust advised.

Because of these reasons, I decided to go with b). I thought and still think that this was in favor of scum. Further punishing UoS was never something I even considered.

The deadline extension, I don't know why you even complain about that. Game Days are usually 10 real days long, this one is 7, with the extension it would have been 9. No-one would have complained if I made it 10 in the first place, which for me shows that there is nothing wrong with it. But more importantly, UoS' absence still hurts town overall, even with the extension, and especially after I just made a decision in favor of scum, this was all but unfair. I even considered making it +3 days.

In fact, I think I would have made it +3 days if it was not for ash's initial reaction.

[Jimmmmm]

I don't agree with any kind of punishment or assuming anything about UOS's disappearance. However I do think the result is unfair on Town. It just meant we had 0% chance of winning. Subbing doesn't seem like a good solution either though. I guess the only fair solution I can think of is to call the game off, since a bunch of players now have no chance of winning through no fault of their own.

Maybe something we could do in general is ask 1-2 people to sign up to a game as sub, and at least somewhat follow the game so that they are ready to sub in for situations like this.

[silverspawn]

Oh and

Speccy QT
Mafia QT

Other QT's coming in a bit.

[silverspawn]

I don't agree with any kind of punishment or assuming anything about UOS's disappearance. However I do think the result is unfair on Town. It just meant we had 0% chance of winning. Subbing doesn't seem like a good solution either though. I guess the only fair solution I can think of is to call the game off, since a bunch of players now have no chance of winning through no fault of their own.

Maybe something we could do in general is ask 1-2 people to sign up to a game as sub, and at least somewhat follow the game so that they are ready to sub in for situations like this.

well yeah, I do agree with this. I think it was unfair for town. I just didn't see any less unfair way.

[yuma]

yuma, we had it in us! We could have done it!

No. We couldn't have. Not with UoS gone. Wasn't possible.

Also this:

I think scum team is awaclus/ash/gkrieg.

everything fits too perfectly. Calling it now.

(Now you can be offended ash)

and same thing in my QT

but let myself get dissuaded from that and had to face the hard reality that getting those lynches to happen couldn't happen.

[silverspawn]

All QT's:

Speccy
Mod
Mafia
yuma
TA
chairs
UoS
Hydrad
Witherweaver
faust
Pingpongsam (best QT)

[yuma]

Now, as of me being the blatantly honest person that I am, I can't hide the fact that I'm pretty disappointment in town's performance this game, overall. I really don't think that scum actually played well, and I think town could and should have won this game, mainly due to two reasons.

Firstly and most importantly:
 

Everyone in thread is doing everything wrong, right? They need 3 M's (given the UB flipped), so it should be DBMMMX (X is anything). We know that two of our letters are D and B (there could be other possibilities maybe, but assuming this will give us an upper bound and should be really close to the actual probability anyway), so we're looking for the probability that 3 out of 4 letters are M. Each M is a 1/10 chance, so this gives us 0.1*0.1*0.1*1*4, so 4/1000 or 1/250. This has to be low enough to just assume ash and gkrieg are scum.

The probability of getting DBMMMX should be 0.05*0.1^4 (if we counted with permutations) so for combinations it's 0.05*0.1^4*120=0.0006. However, we know it's at least DBXXXX, which has a probability of 0.05*0.1*30=0.15, so the probability of DBMMMX given DBXXXX should be 0.0006/(0.15+0.0006)=0.003984. For some reason that came out really close to but not exactly the same as what I got when I did it the other way, so now I'm not confident I did either one right. The 120 is 6!/3! (the number of distinguishable permutations of DBMMMX), and the 30 is 6!/4! (the number of distinguishable permutations of DBXXXX).

Either way, if one of those is really right (and both sound plausible to me? 3 M's given two letters already should be very unlikely), ash and gkrieg are basically caught now, town just has to figure it out.

Jimmmm even brought up the maths. Instead of treating this like a minor-side effect, I think it should have immediately meant an auto-vote for the masons, regardless of reads.

Secondly:

Final Vote Count Day 2

Awaclus (2): chairs, Twistedarcher
Witherweaver (6): gkrieg13, Awaclus, ashersky, UmbrageOfSnow, Witherweaver, yuma
Twistedarcher (1): Hydrad

Not Voting (1): Jimmmmm

With 10 alive, it took 6 to lynch.

Final Vote Count Day 3

yuma (1): Awaclus
chairs (2): ashersky, gkrieg13

No-Lynch (5): UmbrageOfSnow, yuma, Jimmmmm, chairs, Twistedarcher

With 8 alive, it took 5 to no-lynch.

I can't write flavor for this, sorry.

Final Vote Count Day 4

chairs (4): ashersky, gkrieg13, yuma, Awaclus

Not Voting (3): UmbrageOfSnow, Jimmmmm, chairs

With 7 alive, it took 4 to lynch.

Scum collectively drove every single mislynch this game, except for the very first one (which should not have been a lynch...). Why did no-one do any proper wagon analysis?

this is why I don't like these setups. I play mafia to not have to do complicated maths. I was relying on UoS to come and do the math for me (which I think he would have done accurately regardless of alignment), but he never showed. Like everything scotty just said went way over my head on a cursory reading and I am not going to even try and understand it... cause what is the fun of that.

Also wagon analysis is generally not useful. I am also on every mislynch. Does that mean I am scum? No.

[silverspawn]

Oh, and the masons thing: I have to admit that I actually didn't look up on the wiki (which says that it's up to the mod whether or not masons can talk during the day). ash said to gkrieg13 that they cant in the mafia QT, and since he made the setup, I just blindly assumed that they can't, and told that to faust when he asked me.

Pretty sure I would have given them daytalk if I had had to make a decision... if I host this setup again, I'll put it in the rules.

[yuma]

I don't think masons should be able to have daytalk.

Unless wanted to use it as a power up for town as I think it is a pretty nice ability.

[silverspawn]

this is why I don't like these setups. I play mafia to not have to do complicated maths. I was relying on UoS to come and do the math for me (which I think he would have done accurately regardless of alignment), but he never showed. Like everything scotty just said went way over my head on a cursory reading and I am not going to even try and understand it... cause what is the fun of that.

well it's fun if you like maths 

But sure, yeah, not wanting to do maths is legit. it's just... jimmmm did the maths for you. At least part of it... enough for a lynch tbh. and setup-analysis is part of playing well in these kinds of setups.

Also wagon analysis is generally not useful.

Uh, I completely disagree

Especially vs ash it's quite useful I think, because ash doesn't like to bus. Which is good play... people buss too much in general I think.

I am also on every mislynch. Does that mean I am scum? No.

I'm not saying it's 100% proof, but you a) didn't drive the mislynches, and b) you did vote for a no-lynch which the entire scum team collectively was against (and everyone else was for).

[ashersky]

Well, I was not lying about my disagreement with the UOS ruling.

SS may not be happy that we destroyed town, but that's not really fair of him.  Mods shouldn't have a predisposition to one side or the other, even if we do.

The Awaclus MVP seems like sour grapes.  I basically masterminded everything, but we argued over theory at the end, so Pbbt.

We pulled off a flawless win fake claiming Masons with the scummiest player in the game on our team.  To say we deserve no credit for the win is ridiculous.  Town may not have played well, but they got played by scum. 

[ashersky]

I think a lot of what SS calls bad town play is also strong scum play.  Gkrieg did a great job as newbie scum pulling off our plan.

This game is a new reason to add to old reasons for always lynching me, which will start up again.

[ashersky]

Also, calling our win "ostensibly" flawless is the perfect evidence of you being unfairly poopy toward us.

[yuma]

this is why I don't like these setups. I play mafia to not have to do complicated maths. I was relying on UoS to come and do the math for me (which I think he would have done accurately regardless of alignment), but he never showed. Like everything scotty just said went way over my head on a cursory reading and I am not going to even try and understand it... cause what is the fun of that.

well it's fun if you like maths 

But sure, yeah, not wanting to do maths is legit. it's just... jimmmm did the maths for you. At least part of it... enough for a lynch tbh. and setup-analysis is part of playing well in these kinds of setups.

Also wagon analysis is generally not useful.

Uh, I completely disagree

Especially vs ash it's quite useful I think, because ash doesn't like to bus. Which is good play... people buss too much in general I think.

I am also on every mislynch. Does that mean I am scum? No.

I'm not saying it's 100% proof, but you a) didn't drive the mislynches, and b) you did vote for a no-lynch which the entire scum team collectively was against (and everyone else was for).

I guess what I am saying is that in this instance I did do wagon analysis, I just didn't post it because I didn't feel I was able to get anything super constructive out of it. There are times it is useful. But just because a retro-active analysis was shown to be useful doesn't mean mine would have been. if anything it made me look like the wagon driver (which I was in a sense) and didn't want to get myself mislynched.

[yuma]

unfollow

[skip wooznum]

Irony: no-lynching yesterday was probably the wrong move even though at the time it seemed like the obvious call.

[Jimmmmm]

To say we deserve no credit for the win is ridiculous.

Who said this?

[silverspawn]

Also, calling our win "ostensibly" flawless is the perfect evidence of you being unfairly poopy toward us.

I called it ostensibly because I don't think scum played well, mostly because of the mason claim. I just don't think it was good, and I have reasons for it. The biggest one is the existence of a one-shot strongman (on the scummiest player in your team), whose lynch would have immediately resulted into the loss of the game. I don't think the claim was well thought-out, and I think you got lucky with it. Other games would have been a better situation for trying it.

Likewise, I gave Awaclus and not you the mvp because the mason claim was your idea and I think it was bad play. If I thought the claim was good play, I would have given you the mvp.

The argument of 'we won, therefore it's good' sounds horrible to someone who plays prismata and poker. In a slightly simplified but fairly accurate model, your play determines the likeliness of your win, which, with a sample size of 1, makes 'but it worked' a really shitty argument. It's like saying going allin with A6 against AA is good play because you hit a flop of 66678.

The above said, I never said you played worse than town. Dunno if I think that... town didn't play well either, like I've gone over already.

[skip wooznum]

Yeah, why didn't you guys make sure the 1-shot strongman was the one who claimed mason?

[Witherweaver]

I think a lot of what SS calls bad town play is also strong scum play.  Gkrieg did a great job as newbie scum pulling off our plan.

This game is a new reason to add to old reasons for always lynching me, which will start up again.

Hm, I thought you were scummy this game, actually.  I mean I started out accepting the Mason claim as true and had assigned to you as the other Mason, so you started out as defacto town, but as the game when on I saw you as more and more scum.  Well, part of that was that Gkrieg's play supported it as well.

I'm not sure if I could have gone for you guys over Yuma, though.  I was set on Yuma/Ash/Gkrieg instead of Awaclus/Ash/Gkrieg by the end.

Fun fact, I had a dream last night that Gkrieg got lynched and flipped scum. 

[silverspawn]

SS may not be happy that we destroyed town, but that's not really fair of him.  Mods shouldn't have a predisposition to one side or the other, even if we do.

Honestly, this is such a stupid thing to say. Like, inherently, because I don't decide whom I want to win. In fact, I didn't even know I was going to favor town until I started modding games, and I do so purely because of the flavor.

I was 10 times as biased for town in It's a Beautiful World mafia as I was here, and no-one complained there.

But also - I made a pro scum decision despite wanting town to win. I would understand you complaining if I had replaced UoS. But I didn't decide in favor of town. I decided against my bias. So... ...

[skip wooznum]

I also thought yuma was the third scum. So I guess that means I agree awaclus should be MVP?

[faust]

Yeah, why didn't you guys make sure the 1-shot strongman was the one who claimed mason?

Well, so much this. The Mason claimed was very much not thought through. To say it was good scum play is ignoring the facts.

[Jimmmmm]

we destroyed town

I disagree that this is true. It's like you won a game of Dominion 50-0 because you got your megaturn first. The losing side was a lot closer to winning than it appears.

[Witherweaver]

I'd say Gkrieg pulled off his role most believably, I think. 

[gkrieg13]

I'd say Gkrieg pulled off his role most believably, I think.

Thanks!  It was a lot easier being a mason than scum...

[faust]

It's funny that mafia won flawlessly and yet town was literally only 1 lynch away from winning.

[Witherweaver]

It's funny that mafia won flawlessly and yet town was literally only 1 lynch away from winning.

Well that's kind of the nature of a gambit.  Either it really works or really fails.

[Twistedarcher]

WW, I don't think you would have gotten lynched D2 without the self vote.

[Witherweaver]

WW, I don't think you would have gotten lynched D2 without the self vote.

Hey my ultimatum was lynch Awaclus or lynch me, and you guys didn't lynch Awaclus~

[chairs]

I'm so mad because in the end, my last vote was for the right person.

[Awaclus]

We pulled off a flawless win fake claiming Masons with the scummiest player in the game on our team.  To say we deserve no credit for the win is ridiculous.  Town may not have played well, but they got played by scum.

Well, as a direct result of the plan, we managed to get ourselves into a position where I had to not get lynched no matter what, and we committed to the plan way before we realized that this would eventually be the case. I think we did pull off the execution of the plan really well, as evidenced by our victory, but that doesn't mean the plan itself was very good (which you shouldn't take as an insult directed at you in particular — just because you came up with the idea doesn't mean that it's solely your job to think it through).

[Witherweaver]

I was also kind of thinking at the time "If Yuma hammers me, he's scum."  Most of it was frustration, but a small part was wanting to see his reaction.  Ironically, town!Yuma seemed to have legitimately accidentally hammered me.

[chairs]

And like, I really COULD NOT see the scumteam being not-masons by the end of the game, because it would've meant yuma/awaclus/uos and that was insane.

[chairs]

tbh, bravo to the scum team, the mason gambit really really convinced enough of Town that you weren't the right lynch that you got me lynched.

[Twistedarcher]

WW, I don't think you would have gotten lynched D2 without the self vote.

Hey my ultimatum was lynch Awaclus or lynch me, and you guys didn't lynch Awaclus~

and it was 4/4, without hydrad or jimmmmm on either! we had time, but awaclus' playstyle rattled us.

[Witherweaver]

WW, I don't think you would have gotten lynched D2 without the self vote.

Hey my ultimatum was lynch Awaclus or lynch me, and you guys didn't lynch Awaclus~

and it was 4/4, without hydrad or jimmmmm on either! we had time, but awaclus' playstyle rattled us.

He was at L-1 at one point, though, and I was screaming at people to hammer.

At least, I had thought so.

[ashersky]

It's hard for me to not think town's complaints about our play is anything more than sour grapes.  The fact of the matter is, we made a risky play, you bought it enough to allow us to win the game easily and flawlessly.

The Hydrad kill should have tipped you off more, but it didn't.

[Witherweaver]

It's hard for me to not think town's complaints about our play is anything more than sour grapes.  The fact of the matter is, we made a risky play, you bought it enough to allow us to win the game easily and flawlessly.

The Hydrad kill should have tipped you off more, but it didn't.

Why the Hydrad kill?

[ashersky]

Also, calling our win "ostensibly" flawless is the perfect evidence of you being unfairly poopy toward us.

I called it ostensibly because I don't think scum played well, mostly because of the mason claim. I just don't think it was good, and I have reasons for it. The biggest one is the existence of a one-shot strongman (on the scummiest player in your team), whose lynch would have immediately resulted into the loss of the game. I don't think the claim was well thought-out, and I think you got lucky with it. Other games would have been a better situation for trying it.

Likewise, I gave Awaclus and not you the mvp because the mason claim was your idea and I think it was bad play. If I thought the claim was good play, I would have given you the mvp.

The argument of 'we won, therefore it's good' sounds horrible to someone who plays prismata and poker. In a slightly simplified but fairly accurate model, your play determines the likeliness of your win, which, with a sample size of 1, makes 'but it worked' a really shitty argument. It's like saying going allin with A6 against AA is good play because you hit a flop of 66678.

The above said, I never said you played worse than town. Dunno if I think that... town didn't play well either, like I've gone over already.

Flawless win is a defined term.  There's no ostensibly about it.

You (and others) can't break down mafia into a science.  There is feel, intuition, and magic.  If it was solvable by math and logic, it wouldn't need humans to play.

To say the mason claim was a bad play is not taking into consideration the players.  A running play on third and long could be a "bad play" but if the defense lined up to defend something else and you get the first down, it was a great play.

[Witherweaver]

Like I said in the speccy, I'm only disappointed because I wanted to try it as scum.

[ashersky]

It's hard for me to not think town's complaints about our play is anything more than sour grapes.  The fact of the matter is, we made a risky play, you bought it enough to allow us to win the game easily and flawlessly.

The Hydrad kill should have tipped you off more, but it didn't.

Why the Hydrad kill?

Why would scum kill him that night with masons running around?  That was a lucky shot by us, and I thought we'd have a hard time fighting off the "why are masons alive" thing.

[Witherweaver]

It's hard for me to not think town's complaints about our play is anything more than sour grapes.  The fact of the matter is, we made a risky play, you bought it enough to allow us to win the game easily and flawlessly.

The Hydrad kill should have tipped you off more, but it didn't.

Why the Hydrad kill?

Why would scum kill him that night with masons running around?  That was a lucky shot by us, and I thought we'd have a hard time fighting off the "why are masons alive" thing.

Well you always have the defense "scum wants to try to lynch Masons".

[ashersky]

I don't agree with any kind of punishment or assuming anything about UOS's disappearance. However I do think the result is unfair on Town. It just meant we had 0% chance of winning. Subbing doesn't seem like a good solution either though. I guess the only fair solution I can think of is to call the game off, since a bunch of players now have no chance of winning through no fault of their own.

Maybe something we could do in general is ask 1-2 people to sign up to a game as sub, and at least somewhat follow the game so that they are ready to sub in for situations like this.

Do you truly believe all lurkers should just be allowed to lurk?  You don't agree that lurking is truly a problem for these games?

No punishment?  I just can't understand that stance at all.

[yuma]

Honestly the number one reason why I didn't push harder for the masons to get lynched was that I feared a back lash of "you just want to lynch the masons for a mislynch" in the case that the masons were in fact town.

That was an extremely pressing concern in my mind, and a completely valid one as well.

Also I should have been more suspicious of how dismissive ash was being of my case on awaclus. It was a really, really good case. Wasn't it? But I wondered if he just didn't trust me anymore after being away for a year.

Even though we didn't win, I feel that my scumhunting skills are still up to par... Don't really think the other townies have much of an excuse for ignoring me on that. Except that maybe they were suspicious of me as well? But pretty much no one wanted to actually lynch me. They didn't think I was scum, but they didn't trust me enough to see a good case laid out in front of them.

[yuma]

It's hard for me to not think town's complaints about our play is anything more than sour grapes.  The fact of the matter is, we made a risky play, you bought it enough to allow us to win the game easily and flawlessly.

The Hydrad kill should have tipped you off more, but it didn't.

I certainly don't feel that scum played badly. They played perfectly. Town perhaps could have caught them if they had been paying enough attention, but part of that is that mafia was doing a really good job at ensuring there were other things to not pay attention to.

I mean the chairs thing completely derailed any focus that I was paying on awaclus.... and yes put it onto ash/gk but also more squarely onto chairs.

It worked. It might have failed spectacularly, but it didn't. It worked. MVPs all around.

[ashersky]

Thanks, Yuma.

I disagree with SS that town sucked.

[faust]

It's hard for me to not think town's complaints about our play is anything more than sour grapes.  The fact of the matter is, we made a risky play, you bought it enough to allow us to win the game easily and flawlessly.

The Hydrad kill should have tipped you off more, but it didn't.

Your play was not bad play because it was risky - I agree that a Mason fakeclaim is a completely sensible thin to try out. The claim was bad because it tied all three scum together in an absolutely unnecessary way.

[faust]

Do you truly believe all lurkers should just be allowed to lurk?  You don't agree that lurking is truly a problem for these games?

No punishment?  I just can't understand that stance at all.

Well, I would agree in general and lurking is a problem, but I don't think UoS just lurked here for the fun of it. He's clearly having some sort of issue and didn't even respond to my PMs for M69.

[Twistedarcher]

Honestly the number one reason why I didn't push harder for the masons to get lynched was that I feared a back lash of "you just want to lynch the masons for a mislynch" in the case that the masons were in fact town.

That was an extremely pressing concern in my mind, and a completely valid one as well.

Also I should have been more suspicious of how dismissive ash was being of my case on awaclus. It was a really, really good case. Wasn't it? But I wondered if he just didn't trust me anymore after being away for a year.

Even though we didn't win, I feel that my scumhunting skills are still up to par... Don't really think the other townies have much of an excuse for ignoring me on that. Except that maybe they were suspicious of me as well? But pretty much no one wanted to actually lynch me. They didn't think I was scum, but they didn't trust me enough to see a good case laid out in front of them.

I had trouble separating the case on Awaclus from Awaclus' meta

[faust]

The thread title bothers me. Why keep the result hidden? Everyone who followed the game knows that it ending now can only mean that scum won, and everyone who did not follow doesn't care.

[faust]

Honestly the number one reason why I didn't push harder for the masons to get lynched was that I feared a back lash of "you just want to lynch the masons for a mislynch" in the case that the masons were in fact town.

That was an extremely pressing concern in my mind, and a completely valid one as well.

Also I should have been more suspicious of how dismissive ash was being of my case on awaclus. It was a really, really good case. Wasn't it? But I wondered if he just didn't trust me anymore after being away for a year.

Even though we didn't win, I feel that my scumhunting skills are still up to par... Don't really think the other townies have much of an excuse for ignoring me on that. Except that maybe they were suspicious of me as well? But pretty much no one wanted to actually lynch me. They didn't think I was scum, but they didn't trust me enough to see a good case laid out in front of them.

I had trouble separating the case on Awaclus from Awaclus' meta

+1

Also I didn't like the way it was presented at all. It made me all angry and wanting to defend Awaclus.

[Awaclus]

The thread title bothers me. Why keep the result hidden? Everyone who followed the game knows that it ending now can only mean that scum won, and everyone who did not follow doesn't care.

Got to get those clicks.

[skip wooznum]

The thread title bothers me. Why keep the result hidden? Everyone who followed the game knows that it ending now can only mean that scum won, and everyone who did not follow doesn't care.

when I first found forum games I went and read through a mafia game thread, and I probably would have preferred not having known the outcome, so I definitely agree that it shouldn't be spolied in the title. I would also argue that the flips on the main post on page one should be in spoilers.

[scott_pilgrim]

The thread title bothers me. Why keep the result hidden? Everyone who followed the game knows that it ending now can only mean that scum won, and everyone who did not follow doesn't care.

when I first found forum games I went and read through a mafia game thread, and I probably would have preferred not having known the outcome, so I definitely agree that it shouldn't be spolied in the title. I would also argue that the flips on the main post on page one should be in spoilers.

These are good ideas that I think I will try to do if I mod more games in the future.  In fact I may go back and edit past games I've modded too.

[Twistedarcher]

Honestly the number one reason why I didn't push harder for the masons to get lynched was that I feared a back lash of "you just want to lynch the masons for a mislynch" in the case that the masons were in fact town.

That was an extremely pressing concern in my mind, and a completely valid one as well.

Also I should have been more suspicious of how dismissive ash was being of my case on awaclus. It was a really, really good case. Wasn't it? But I wondered if he just didn't trust me anymore after being away for a year.

Even though we didn't win, I feel that my scumhunting skills are still up to par... Don't really think the other townies have much of an excuse for ignoring me on that. Except that maybe they were suspicious of me as well? But pretty much no one wanted to actually lynch me. They didn't think I was scum, but they didn't trust me enough to see a good case laid out in front of them.

I had trouble separating the case on Awaclus from Awaclus' meta

+1

Also I didn't like the way it was presented at all. It made me all angry and wanting to defend Awaclus.

To be fair, I think that's more on Awaclus than Yuma. Yuma doesn't know Awaclus' meta. Looking back I still can't separate this from town Awaclus performances, which is great for scum Awaclus, and terrible for town Awaclus' teammates.

[ashersky]

This was my 10th scum win, btw.

[Witherweaver]

This was my 10th scum win, btw.

Statistically, we should just autolynch you.

[yuma]

I had trouble separating the case on Awaclus from Awaclus' meta

There were elements that were hard to separate, but I think the crux of my case was that he responded twice in scummy ways at the beginning of the day to separate himself from the lynch wagon. That doesn't have anything to do with meta. That is just scummy. The way he responded got clouded in meta. I feel like people focused to much on the surroundings of the case and neglected to focus on the actual case itself

[yuma]

Also I didn't like the way it was presented at all. It made me all angry and wanting to defend Awaclus.

I don't know how to respond to this...

[Awaclus]

There were elements that were hard to separate, but I think the crux of my case was that he responded twice in scummy ways at the beginning of the day to separate himself from the lynch wagon. That doesn't have anything to do with meta. That is just scummy. The way he responded got clouded in meta. I feel like people focused to much on the surroundings of the case and neglected to focus on the actual case itself

I don't think that was scummy though. I would probably have done the same as town.

[yuma]

There were elements that were hard to separate, but I think the crux of my case was that he responded twice in scummy ways at the beginning of the day to separate himself from the lynch wagon. That doesn't have anything to do with meta. That is just scummy. The way he responded got clouded in meta. I feel like people focused to much on the surroundings of the case and neglected to focus on the actual case itself

I don't think that was scummy though. I would probably have done the same as town.

I can't believe that and think you are just saying that to help yourself out during your next scum game, which is annoying and self serving.

[Witherweaver]

Consciously acting as scum the way you think you act is town is exactly what should be looked for when scum hunting.

[Awaclus]

Consciously acting as scum the way you think you act is town is exactly what should be looked for when scum hunting.

But I consciously act as town the way I think I act as town, so that's not really what should be looked for when scum hunting.

[Awaclus]

I can't believe that and think you are just saying that to help yourself out during your next scum game, which is annoying and self serving.

I'm saying it because it's true. Why wouldn't I do that as town?

[yuma]

I can't believe that and think you are just saying that to help yourself out during your next scum game, which is annoying and self serving.

I'm saying it because it's true. Why wouldn't I do that as town?

Why wouldn't you as town try to distance yourself from a mislynch that you purposefully were a part of that tried and succeeded to get said town member mislynched so that your non-existent scum buddies and yourself wouldn't get lunched instead?

If this is how you play town you aren't just annoying you are severely confused.

[yuma]

and if we can just declare things that we will always do as town townie then I declare...

"I will always try and kill awaclus in all future games that I am town"

and I completely and fully intend to stick to this self-imposed meta because I believe that it will be beneficial to the town that I am a part of

which is a nice cover if I am ever mafia in the future

[Awaclus]

Why wouldn't you as town try to distance yourself from a mislynch that you purposefully were a part of that tried and succeeded to get said town member mislynched so that your non-existent scum buddies and yourself wouldn't get lunched instead?

If this is how you play town you aren't just annoying you are severely confused.

So I should just try to get lynched whenever I'm town? Thanks for the advice, I probably wouldn't have reached that conclusion on my own.

[Witherweaver]

Man I hope I get quoted again.

[yuma]

cause that is exactly what I said...

but whatever. you want to win this argument. fine you win. what is the point.

having a conversation with you is like...

and oh fuck it why do I even bother talking this is just going to get a pointless response to lead to more pointlessness.

so from now on I am just going to vote you when you are around and otherwise not respond to your posts.

Sounds fun doesn't it? But there I go getting personal again in a game that isn't supposed to be taken personally but what can you do?

[yuma]

Man I hope I get quoted again.

HA!

using this quote from now on instead...

[silverspawn]

The thread title bothers me. Why keep the result hidden? Everyone who followed the game knows that it ending now can only mean that scum won, and everyone who did not follow doesn't care.

oh, just for the players to have the chance to look into the thread for the result. I don't like getting spoiled by the title, I prefer reading the flip in the thread.

It wasn't meant to stay like this and I can change it back right now, I just wanted to have it for one or two days. I did it in my two previous games too, I think.

[silverspawn]

It's hard for me to not think town's complaints about our play is anything more than sour grapes.  The fact of the matter is, we made a risky play, you bought it enough to allow us to win the game easily and flawlessly.

The result with a sample size of 1 is a bad argument. I can only repeat this fact because I think overvaluing the outcome of something is a very common type of cognitive bias that you and many many others suffer from.

Let's say your plan has a 33% chance to work. That would make it a really bad plan. But the chance of failure is still only twice as high as the chance of success. And now it just happened to work out - this is not unlikely, 1/3 chances happen all the time. But that doesn't make your plan any better or worse or does anything to it whatsoever. The plan is the plan and the outcome happens afterwards. How good the initial plan was is determined after the initial plan was made and independent of whether or not it works.

An example in this specific game: Awaclus could have been lynched day 2. In fact, he was super close to being lynched. All it would have taken is for something to come up in the real life of one or two players that changed who of them was there at certain times and who wasn't. Or for WW to be a tiny bit less frustrated with Awaclus, enough to push his lynch more instead of self-voting.

Or SP could just have been in the game. In that case, you lose either way. Are you trying to tell me you would not have pushed the mason claim if SP had been playing?

If any of the above happened, you would not defend the claim as much as you did. You would not insist that it was good play if it had lead to scum losing. I have proof of this right here:

The more we think about this, the worse of an idea it was! But it was fun!

I realized that, if we were much less powerful (like 2 or less Ts), this would have been way better, since we wouldn't be caught just by the virtue of the powers.

You already realized that it wasn't good, but then you changed your mind because of the outcome. Which is irrational. You could try to convince me that it was good play, but the above quote proves that you only even think so because of something that had zero effect on the outcome.

And that is illogical.

You (and others) can't break down mafia into a science.  There is feel, intuition, and magic.  If it was solvable by math and logic, it wouldn't need humans to play.

mafia is intuition, experience, and many other things, including maths. The importance of maths varies from game to game, most of the time it isn't a big deal.

In this particular case it was essential, as it would have won town the game. You cannot claim otherwise, because SP did find out that both masons were lying early into day 4 without any additional information beyond the thread.

[silverspawn]

Flawless win is a defined term.

I know that.

Writing 'ostensibly flawlessly' instead of something else was me acknowledging this fact while also putting my own personal note in there, in a post that doesn't really mean anything. That was indeed me being sour. Mafia wins flawlessly is still in the title and in the game history and was always intended to be there and I don't think being emotional is a bad thing.

[Awaclus]

cause that is exactly what I said...

Well, if you didn't say that town shouldn't try to avoid getting lynched, then you agree with me.

[faust]

If this is how you play town you aren't just annoying you are severely confused.

I know it is post-game, but I would appreciate if we could still keep discussions civil.

[faust]

In this particular case it was essential, as it would have won town the game. You cannot claim otherwise, because SP did find out that both masons were lying early into day 4 without any additional information beyond the thread.

I believe you heavily overestimate the power of scott's argument.

ash's early D1 behaviour should have tipped people off more though. Why propose a plan for the Masons to claim if you are a Mason yourself? That just didn't make sense for town and a lot of sense for mafia.

[Awaclus]

It's hard for me to not think town's complaints about our play is anything more than sour grapes.  The fact of the matter is, we made a risky play, you bought it enough to allow us to win the game easily and flawlessly.

The result with a sample size of 1 is a bad argument. I can only repeat this fact because I think overvaluing the outcome of something is a very common type of cognitive bias that you and many many others suffer from.

Let's say your plan has a 33% chance to work. That would make it a really bad plan. But the chance of failure is still only twice as high as the chance of success. And now it just happened to work out - this is not unlikely, 1/3 chances happen all the time. But that doesn't make your plan any better or worse or does anything to it whatsoever. The plan is the plan and the outcome happens afterwards. How good the initial plan was is determined after the initial plan was made and independent of whether or not it works.

An example in this specific game: Awaclus could have been lynched day 2. In fact, he was super close to being lynched. All it would have taken is for something to come up in the real life of one or two players that changed who of them was there at certain times and who wasn't. Or for WW to be a tiny bit less frustrated with Awaclus, enough to push his lynch more instead of self-voting.

Or SP could just have been in the game. In that case, you lose either way. Are you trying to tell me you would not have pushed the mason claim if SP had been playing?

If any of the above happened, you would not defend the claim as much as you did. You would not insist that it was good play if it had lead to scum losing. I have proof of this right here:

The more we think about this, the worse of an idea it was! But it was fun!

I realized that, if we were much less powerful (like 2 or less Ts), this would have been way better, since we wouldn't be caught just by the virtue of the powers.

You already realized that it wasn't good, but then you changed your mind because of the outcome. Which is irrational. You could try to convince me that it was good play, but the above quote proves that you only even think so because of something that had zero effect on the outcome.

And that is illogical.

You (and others) can't break down mafia into a science.  There is feel, intuition, and magic.  If it was solvable by math and logic, it wouldn't need humans to play.

mafia is intuition, experience, and many other things, including maths. The importance of maths varies from game to game, most of the time it isn't a big deal.

In this particular case it was essential, as it would have won town the game. You cannot claim otherwise, because SP did find out that both masons were lying early into day 4 without any additional information beyond the thread.

I'm not sure why you're even having this argument. Yes, the plan was not the best plan ever, but going for the plan was just one mistake. We made up for it by not making a lot of other mistakes, and I think we deserve some credit for that.

[silverspawn]

I'm not sure why you're even having this argument. Yes, the plan was not the best plan ever, but going for the plan was just one mistake. We made up for it by not making a lot of other mistakes, and I think we deserve some credit for that.

I'm making the argument because ash called me out for my modding decisions and then he called me out for questioning his scum play. I'm being defensive.

[silverspawn]

also my type indicator says I really want people around me to make sense. ash isn't making sense.

[scott_pilgrim]

It's hard for me to not think town's complaints about our play is anything more than sour grapes.  The fact of the matter is, we made a risky play, you bought it enough to allow us to win the game easily and flawlessly.

The result with a sample size of 1 is a bad argument. I can only repeat this fact because I think overvaluing the outcome of something is a very common type of cognitive bias that you and many many others suffer from.

Let's say your plan has a 33% chance to work. That would make it a really bad plan. But the chance of failure is still only twice as high as the chance of success. And now it just happened to work out - this is not unlikely, 1/3 chances happen all the time. But that doesn't make your plan any better or worse or does anything to it whatsoever. The plan is the plan and the outcome happens afterwards. How good the initial plan was is determined after the initial plan was made and independent of whether or not it works.

An example in this specific game: Awaclus could have been lynched day 2. In fact, he was super close to being lynched. All it would have taken is for something to come up in the real life of one or two players that changed who of them was there at certain times and who wasn't. Or for WW to be a tiny bit less frustrated with Awaclus, enough to push his lynch more instead of self-voting.

Or SP could just have been in the game. In that case, you lose either way. Are you trying to tell me you would not have pushed the mason claim if SP had been playing?

If any of the above happened, you would not defend the claim as much as you did. You would not insist that it was good play if it had lead to scum losing. I have proof of this right here:

The more we think about this, the worse of an idea it was! But it was fun!

I realized that, if we were much less powerful (like 2 or less Ts), this would have been way better, since we wouldn't be caught just by the virtue of the powers.

You already realized that it wasn't good, but then you changed your mind because of the outcome. Which is irrational. You could try to convince me that it was good play, but the above quote proves that you only even think so because of something that had zero effect on the outcome.

And that is illogical.

You (and others) can't break down mafia into a science.  There is feel, intuition, and magic.  If it was solvable by math and logic, it wouldn't need humans to play.

mafia is intuition, experience, and many other things, including maths. The importance of maths varies from game to game, most of the time it isn't a big deal.

In this particular case it was essential, as it would have won town the game. You cannot claim otherwise, because SP did find out that both masons were lying early into day 4 without any additional information beyond the thread.

Yeah, I agree with pretty much all of this.  Scum did some things well, but I think the claim was a huge mistake that happened to work out because of reasons they couldn't possibly have foreseen.

[Jimmmmm]

I don't agree with any kind of punishment or assuming anything about UOS's disappearance. However I do think the result is unfair on Town. It just meant we had 0% chance of winning. Subbing doesn't seem like a good solution either though. I guess the only fair solution I can think of is to call the game off, since a bunch of players now have no chance of winning through no fault of their own.

Maybe something we could do in general is ask 1-2 people to sign up to a game as sub, and at least somewhat follow the game so that they are ready to sub in for situations like this.

Do you truly believe all lurkers should just be allowed to lurk?  You don't agree that lurking is truly a problem for these games?

No punishment?  I just can't understand that stance at all.

Like, what if he's in hospital or worse? What if he's had a family tragedy? There are many more important things than online games. Also, even if he did just decide he couldn't be bothered showing up for a while, who here has the right to punish people? If you simply mean refusing to be involved in any game he's in, then no one can stop you from doing that. But that's just a personal thing; punishment implies some kind of authority.

[ashersky]

I don't agree with any kind of punishment or assuming anything about UOS's disappearance. However I do think the result is unfair on Town. It just meant we had 0% chance of winning. Subbing doesn't seem like a good solution either though. I guess the only fair solution I can think of is to call the game off, since a bunch of players now have no chance of winning through no fault of their own.

Maybe something we could do in general is ask 1-2 people to sign up to a game as sub, and at least somewhat follow the game so that they are ready to sub in for situations like this.

Do you truly believe all lurkers should just be allowed to lurk?  You don't agree that lurking is truly a problem for these games?

No punishment?  I just can't understand that stance at all.

Like, what if he's in hospital or worse? What if he's had a family tragedy? There are many more important things than online games. Also, even if he did just decide he couldn't be bothered showing up for a while, who here has the right to punish people? If you simply mean refusing to be involved in any game he's in, then no one can stop you from doing that. But that's just a personal thing; punishment implies some kind of authority.

The mod does have authority.  It's his game.

You are absolutely in the wrong if you believe a mod, or even the other players in the game, have no right to take action against a lurker in a game.

Yes, something bad might have happened to UOS.  That would be terrible.  But you arguing that we can't modkill him is just incomprehensible.  If you think that isn't right because he might be sick, you should also believe we couldn't have lynched him, either.

You are straight up arguing that we take zero action in a game if someone lurks.  We used to have Lynch All Lurkers as an idea here, even if not a practice.  You honestly think we should let all lurking slide with zero action taken in all games?  Why even have rules for posting, or why have prods, then?  You could always drop the "maybe hospital" card.

You must also hate on Faust for replacing him in his game, if we go by your reasoning that punishment should be applied in mafia games for lurking because something bad may have happened.

In my opinion, if something bad happened to UOS, when he comes back, he will not be upset at all that he was mod killed here (had that happened) or replaced in the other game. 

You arguing in favor or removing punishments for lurking in mafia games seems like trying to help yourself, given you've been known to lurk on occasion.

If you disagree with my use of punishments including prods, loss of vote/power, and up to modkills to deal with inactivity, I guess you don't have to sign up for my games.

[Jimmmmm]

I wasn't at all arguing against modkills etc. I thought you were arguing for more community-wide punishment.

[Awaclus]

The real question is why does silver think that Emmure is really awful. They're super good.

[ashersky]

I wasn't at all arguing against modkills etc. I thought you were arguing for more community-wide punishment.

Oh, no, not at all.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Jimmmmm]

Now about the UoS thing: I am shocked and blatantly insulted at ash's reaction, and anyone who agrees with him. Where is your respect or loyalty towards UoS as a person? Why does he need to be punished so badly when you have no idea why he is absent? This is not a case of someone lurking because of laziness. The attitude of treating everyone equally upon the slightest rule violation regardless of context is one I wholeheartedly despise. I will not have it in my games.

I guess I was responding to this. I'm not sure exactly what ss was referring to that you said, but I figured it went further than normal in-game consequences (which is more to make the game work than to punish the person, and I don't like the word punishment in this case but I guess that's just semantics), since ss was arguing against it and he is obviously not against modkilling (not that he should be).

[ashersky]

Now about the UoS thing: I am shocked and blatantly insulted at ash's reaction, and anyone who agrees with him. Where is your respect or loyalty towards UoS as a person? Why does he need to be punished so badly when you have no idea why he is absent? This is not a case of someone lurking because of laziness. The attitude of treating everyone equally upon the slightest rule violation regardless of context is one I wholeheartedly despise. I will not have it in my games.

I guess I was responding to this. I'm not sure exactly what ss was referring to that you said, but I figured it went further than normal in-game consequences (which is more to make the game work than to punish the person, and I don't like the word punishment in this case but I guess that's just semantics), since ss was arguing against it and he is obviously not against modkilling (not that he should be).

We exchanged a few PMs, but I never mentioned punishment outside the game.

In response to SS, for him to believe that any authority should apply laws differently depending on the person is just hard for me to swallow.

If a homeless man murders someone for his sandwich, should we let it go without punishment due to "context?"

Changing the way laws apply to people depending on the person goes against a lot of my core beliefs as a human being...including everyone should be treated the same regardless of who they are.  I loathe the idea that some people deserve special treatment (like letting them break the law because of context, or more brutally applying it because of who they are) just based on their circumstances.

Change out "circumstances" with race/gender/religion, etc. and you have all the -isms we discuss in RSP.

If SS wants to write his mafia game rules so that they favor some players over others based on favoritism, "context" or anything else, I won't be signing up, and I will argue against their inclusion on this site as a forum mod.

[silverspawn]

it's not about what people are, it's about what people do. UoS usually doesn't lurk, that's why a VLA has a different weight than it might have from other players.

[ashersky]

it's not about what people are, it's about what people do. UoS usually doesn't lurk, that's why a VLA has a different weight than it might have from other players.

Next time he's scum, he'll be sure to abuse that.

You can't play favorites as a mod.  Are you going to list the players who get rules exceptions in your rules post?

11. Dead Players may not post (except for Scott_Pilgrim and Faust because they are smarter than the rest).

Seems great.

[silverspawn]

it's not about what people are, it's about what people do. UoS usually doesn't lurk, that's why a VLA has a different weight than it might have from other players.

Next time he's scum, he'll be sure to abuse that.

You can't play favorites as a mod.  Are you going to list the players who get rules exceptions in your rules post?

11. Dead Players may not post (except for Scott_Pilgrim and Faust because they are smarter than the rest).

Seems great.

no-one gets any exception. I didn't violate any rules.

If a player becomes inactive, other players may request prods on him. In extreme cases, further actions may be taken based on the mod's discretion.

this is what I did. It's in the setup.

I guess I did not technically include possible deadline changes in the setup. what a great crime.

[faust]

In response to SS, for him to believe that any authority should apply laws differently depending on the person is just hard for me to swallow.

If a homeless man murders someone for his sandwich, should we let it go without punishment due to "context?"

We shouldn't discuss this too far probably, this is RSP territory. But there is such a thing as extenuating circumstances (at least in German law), and I think that's good. But to discuss this further we would have to go into "Why do we punish at all?" and such questions and this pretty certainly isn't the right place.

[faust]

As far as mafia games are concerned, in general I agree that players should be treated equally regardless of whether or not they have a history of lurking. But I also see no problem in way silver dealt with the UoS situation and would have agreed with the decision if it were applied to any other player.

[skip wooznum]

11. Dead Players may not post (except for Scott_Pilgrim and Faust because they are smarter than the rest).

I would soo play in this game

[Witherweaver]

Also, I'm not sure they're smarter than the rest.  Though specifically smarter at Mafia I might agree.

[Awaclus]

Also, I'm not sure they're smarter than the rest.

They are, it's in the rules.