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[mpsprs]

Wow, that was quick.  I'm 4 minutes late, and I already have a vote on me.

Let's get serious though.  One of the things that characterizes this game is the distinction between the two vets and all us relative newbies (and in 4 cases, absolute newbies).  To go with the flavor, ADK and Andrew are the sharks.  If they are both village, that's great.  Experience on our side. 

I worry though about one of them being mafia (or even both), and masterminding the whole thing without us inexperienced types noticing.  Basically, I view it as experienced villager=moderately helpful vs. experienced mafia=very deadly.  If that is the case, then perhaps, in the absence of more info (which we should definitely try to get), it would be in our best interest (as town) to target one of the "sharks" first.

I'd love to hear other's thoughts on this, especially from ADK and Andrew about why I'm totally wrong about this.

[Hugovj]

Well, that's what you call speaking about the devil.. Mpsprs hasn't been accused for ten minutes, or there he arrives. Don't think this says anything though.

If I were moderator though, I think I would not choose both scums to be the 'real' noobs. Maybe one, but I think not both. Let's look at the list of players:
Awaclus, Hugovj, mpsprs, xxpittip, silverspawn, Hydrad, Qvist, ADK, AndrewisFTTW

The first four are totally new. Silver has played/is playing 8/9 games in total, so he could be called 'experienced' in this field. I don't know about Hydrad and Qvist. ADK and Andrew both signed up as veterans, so I think there's a big chance one of the Mafioso is in that group of three, Silver, ADK and Andrew.
Still don't know which one of the three though.

[Hydrad]

One thing I will say is I think in all of these new mafia games they have decided who is scum and not usually by complete randomization. I don't think they pick favourites on who gets the PR's or is scum. So I would say it would be a mistake if we start eliminating pools of people just because they are new/experienced.

[Hugovj]

Well, I've moderated a share of Werewolf games (very similar). There I actually did look at who got what role after randomizing and I could make some slight changes. I know it's not much to go on, but I think it's something.

[mpsprs]

One thing I will say is I think in all of these new mafia games they have decided who is scum and not usually by complete randomization. I don't think they pick favourites on who gets the PR's or is scum. So I would say it would be a mistake if we start eliminating pools of people just because they are new/experienced.

I was also assuming that they were assigned randomly.  If not, then of course we should take that into account.

So I don't think that ADK or Andrew are any more likely than Hugo to be mafia, but rather that they are more dangerous if they are mafia, and hence we should give stronger consideration to voting them early.

[Hydrad]

You also have to keep in mind that while they may be strong scum players. They most likely are going to be good town players also. So if they are town they could be really helpful later on in the game.

Personally I'm going to try and judge everyone on kinda a even playing field and try to lynch who ever actually looks really scummy.

[ashersky]

All roles and alignments are assigned randomly using a random number generator.

This is true for all mafia games on f.ds.

[AndrewisFTTW]

One thing I will say is I think in all of these new mafia games they have decided who is scum and not usually by complete randomization. I don't think they pick favourites on who gets the PR's or is scum. So I would say it would be a mistake if we start eliminating pools of people just because they are new/experienced.

Huh? Where do you get that from? Alignment and roles are always determined randomly.

Oh and

vote: ADK

There's not enough room in this ocean for both of us.

[Hydrad]

One thing I will say is I think in all of these new mafia games they have decided who is scum and not usually by complete randomization. I don't think they pick favourites on who gets the PR's or is scum. So I would say it would be a mistake if we start eliminating pools of people just because they are new/experienced.

Huh? Where do you get that from? Alignment and roles are always determined randomly.

Oh and

vote: ADK

There's not enough room in this ocean for both of us.

oh wow I just reread what I posted and somehow messed that up completely. I was trying to say that everything is completely randomized. But I somehow said the exact opposite... my bad.

[Awaclus]

Hi, have fun.

So I don't think that ADK or Andrew are any more likely than Hugo to be mafia, but rather that they are more dangerous if they are mafia, and hence we should give stronger consideration to voting them early.

I'm not sure how useful that is. While you might be right that experienced scum is dangerous, for the same reason I think that it might be hard to build a serious case against an experienced scum player at this point. On the other hand, if we just vote for random people instead, a newbie scum might be more likely to make a mistake which gives their alignment away, and if that happened, it'd be super useful. Well, we can always just collectively decide to lynch an experienced player just because they're experienced of course, but I believe that would be a bad idea.

Vote: Hydrad for being suspiciously fast.

[Hydrad]

Hi, have fun.

So I don't think that ADK or Andrew are any more likely than Hugo to be mafia, but rather that they are more dangerous if they are mafia, and hence we should give stronger consideration to voting them early.

I'm not sure how useful that is. While you might be right that experienced scum is dangerous, for the same reason I think that it might be hard to build a serious case against an experienced scum player at this point. On the other hand, if we just vote for random people instead, a newbie scum might be more likely to make a mistake which gives their alignment away, and if that happened, it'd be super useful. Well, we can always just collectively decide to lynch an experienced player just because they're experienced of course, but I believe that would be a bad idea.

Vote: Hydrad for being suspiciously fast.

sometimes I just sit and refresh the page a bunch...

also Vote: SS How do we know xxpittip isn't someone SS is going to control. We have to take him out before its to late!

[Hydrad]

xxpittip to prove you have your own individuality you should also vote:silver!

also we really need to find some easier nicknames for some people. I always have to double check my spelling when i'm writing your names.

[Qvist]

Good luck everyone. My last game was a while ago, let's hope that I'm not rusty.

As no one really died in the first night, it's hard to draw conclusions right now. We can now only random vote and wait until somebody slips.

xxpittip to prove you have your own individuality you should also vote:silver!

Vote: Hydrad for initiating a band wagon

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm liking "Xxpushups" for a potential nickname, or "pushups" for short. Does anyone object?

[Hydrad]

I'm liking "Xxpushups" for a potential nickname, or "pushups" for short. Does anyone object?

I'm rereading the name and trying to figure out how you came up with that at all...

[AndrewisFTTW]

xxpittip -> xxputtup -> xxpushups -> pushups

vote: pushups

[mpsprs]

Well, we can always just collectively decide to lynch an experienced player just because they're experienced of course, but I believe that would be a bad idea.

Certainly at the moment.  We have ~10 days to try and get a slip.  And we should try to get one.  I certainly don't anticipate making a serious vote that could lead to a lynch until at least half of that time is up to give us the time to hear multiple times from everybody.  We need information as town, and we need time to get that.

But I'm trying to think ahead to a scenario where there isn't an obvious scum slip.  We still need to work out where to put our votes.  I'll admit that my standard for what constitutes a scum slip are probably quite high as well (I tend to think honest mistakes by town are fairly common as well-but I haven't looked at other games to see if I'm right about that). 

At the end of the day, we need a lynch (for the informational value of the flip) and in the absence of other info, I will want to put my vote on someone whose danger as mafia outweighs their helpfulness as town.  That's a tough judgement to make, as people strong in one class are likely to be strong in the other, but at the moment, I'm counting on inexperience mafia making a big mistake or two along the way if they don't have experienced hands guiding them.  And I trust us as town to see those big mistakes even without experienced hands guiding us (especially, since we won't be able to fully trust their guidance).  So I see the vets as dangerous and helpful, but with more danger.

All of this is very much subject to change, given discussions over the next 10 days, of course, but it's where my head is now.

[Hydrad]

(I tend to think honest mistakes by town are fairly common as well-but I haven't looked at other games to see if I'm right about that). 

They definitaly exist. In fact I would say most things people call "scumslips" end up being a town player. But still there are some scumslips that definitely are from scum and thats what we want to look for.

[Awaclus]

Well, we can always just collectively decide to lynch an experienced player just because they're experienced of course, but I believe that would be a bad idea.

Certainly at the moment.  We have ~10 days to try and get a slip.  And we should try to get one.  I certainly don't anticipate making a serious vote that could lead to a lynch until at least half of that time is up to give us the time to hear multiple times from everybody.  We need information as town, and we need time to get that.

But I'm trying to think ahead to a scenario where there isn't an obvious scum slip.  We still need to work out where to put our votes.  I'll admit that my standard for what constitutes a scum slip are probably quite high as well (I tend to think honest mistakes by town are fairly common as well-but I haven't looked at other games to see if I'm right about that). 

At the end of the day, we need a lynch (for the informational value of the flip) and in the absence of other info, I will want to put my vote on someone whose danger as mafia outweighs their helpfulness as town.  That's a tough judgement to make, as people strong in one class are likely to be strong in the other, but at the moment, I'm counting on inexperience mafia making a big mistake or two along the way if they don't have experienced hands guiding them.  And I trust us as town to see those big mistakes even without experienced hands guiding us (especially, since we won't be able to fully trust their guidance).  So I see the vets as dangerous and helpful, but with more danger.

All of this is very much subject to change, given discussions over the next 10 days, of course, but it's where my head is now.

Earlier, you were saying that we should "target" them "first" though. From that, I got the picture that you were suggesting that we should start focusing our votes on Andrew and ADK pretty much right now, and that is mostly what I was replying to.

If we don't get any direct scumslips or other scummy behavior from anyone though, then I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that lynching an experienced player might be a good move. I'm not familiar enough with Mafia to say for sure if you're right or not, but at least what you're saying sounds plausible. Also, since an experienced player is less likely to make a mistake when playing as scum, in the absence of such mistakes, it makes it appear more likely that at least one experienced player is in the mafia.

xxpittip -> xxputtup -> xxpushups -> pushups

vote: pushups

I don't like pushups, can't we just shorten xxpushups -> xxp?

Also, vote: Andrew because pushups

[Awaclus]

I'll admit that my standard for what constitutes a scum slip are probably quite high as well (I tend to think honest mistakes by town are fairly common as well-but I haven't looked at other games to see if I'm right about that).

Oh, and about this, in the end, are you more willing to lynch a newbie who could be showing signs of being scum but could also be a town player who's just making honest mistakes, or an experienced player who doesn't appear to be scum at all? At this point, I'm not saying that either approach is wrong, I'm just curious.

For the record, I'm the kind of person who's probably going to see connections and draw conclusions even when there isn't any conclusions to be drawn or connections to be seen myself.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I say let's lynch who we collectively think is the scummiest. Lynching me or ADK just because there's a slight possibility that we're scum is pretty much a random lynch. Let's start basing our votes on actual scummy behavior.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote: mpsprs for now. he hasn't posted anything since the game started. super scummy.

Vet(-ish) player jumping into RVS without explaining the concept to the new players. Seems scummy. Ish.

(since it looks like the topic got glossed over, "RVS" is Random Voting Stage, the part of the game where people throw out random/jokey votes to get the game started. Looks like there hasn't been much of that here, which I'm a fan of. The sooner real discussion gets started, the better, and I think suddenly putting pressure on people early gets good reactions).

Wow, that was quick.  I'm 4 minutes late, and I already have a vote on me.

Let's get serious though.  One of the things that characterizes this game is the distinction between the two vets and all us relative newbies (and in 4 cases, absolute newbies).  To go with the flavor, ADK and Andrew are the sharks.  If they are both village, that's great.  Experience on our side. 

I worry though about one of them being mafia (or even both), and masterminding the whole thing without us inexperienced types noticing.  Basically, I view it as experienced villager=moderately helpful vs. experienced mafia=very deadly.  If that is the case, then perhaps, in the absence of more info (which we should definitely try to get), it would be in our best interest (as town) to target one of the "sharks" first.

I'd love to hear other's thoughts on this, especially from ADK and Andrew about why I'm totally wrong about this.

This post looks towny to me. It's a somewhat controversial stance. I also think that town players, particularly new town, thinks of scum players as having some sort of master plan, when more often they're just winging it.

Well, that's what you call speaking about the devil.. Mpsprs hasn't been accused for ten minutes, or there he arrives. Don't think this says anything though.

If I were moderator though, I think I would not choose both scums to be the 'real' noobs. Maybe one, but I think not both. Let's look at the list of players:
Awaclus, Hugovj, mpsprs, xxpittip, silverspawn, Hydrad, Qvist, ADK, AndrewisFTTW

The first four are totally new. Silver has played/is playing 8/9 games in total, so he could be called 'experienced' in this field. I don't know about Hydrad and Qvist. ADK and Andrew both signed up as veterans, so I think there's a big chance one of the Mafioso is in that group of three, Silver, ADK and Andrew.
Still don't know which one of the three though.

This assumption (that the scum team was nonrandom) was a townslip in the other newbie game I played. Just saying.

Hi, have fun.

So I don't think that ADK or Andrew are any more likely than Hugo to be mafia, but rather that they are more dangerous if they are mafia, and hence we should give stronger consideration to voting them early.

I'm not sure how useful that is. While you might be right that experienced scum is dangerous, for the same reason I think that it might be hard to build a serious case against an experienced scum player at this point. On the other hand, if we just vote for random people instead, a newbie scum might be more likely to make a mistake which gives their alignment away, and if that happened, it'd be super useful. Well, we can always just collectively decide to lynch an experienced player just because they're experienced of course, but I believe that would be a bad idea.

Vote: Hydrad for being suspiciously fast.

sometimes I just sit and refresh the page a bunch...

also Vote: SS How do we know xxpittip isn't someone SS is going to control. We have to take him out before its to late!

People are starting serious discussion and Hydrad puts in another joke vote, for someone who hasn't posted yet. Yeah, vote: Hydrad.

Good luck everyone. My last game was a while ago, let's hope that I'm not rusty.

As no one really died in the first night, it's hard to draw conclusions right now. We can now only random vote and wait until somebody slips.

"Random" is an exaggeration I think, there's plenty to talk about already.

I say let's lynch who we collectively think is the scummiest. Lynching me or ADK just because there's a slight possibility that we're scum is pretty much a random lynch. Let's start basing our votes on actual scummy behavior.

This seems a little nervous, and therefore scummy, to me.

For the "lynch a vet argument", I don't think that vets have an advantage as scum, especially when it comes to the other vets. We've all played with each other before, and so can bring knowledge about each others' playstyles to the table, while all the newbies are starting with a blank slate, so to speak.

As for "scumslips", they rarely happen, and I think are unlikely to happen in a setup as simple as this. As frustrating as it is, you mostly have to get discussion going, trust your reads, and be willing to take chances.

As a final note, welcome to F.ds mafia, new people!

[A Drowned Kernel]

That's three votes for Hydrad, which means he's 2 away from being lynched. In the lingo, he's at "L-2".

[AndrewisFTTW]

ADK every game you call someone nervous and every game it means just as little. Could it be that I just want to promote discussion on scumhunting instead of continuing speculation on a random lynch among vets?

[Hydrad]

please don't accidentally lynch me!

Just letting people know if you are the 5th one to vote for someone and didn't realize that you were the fifth you aren't really able to go back and "unvote" it saying it was by accident. So when people are L-2 or L-1 especially be careful when throwing votes around.

anyways back to me. Looks like I have a wagon on me. Well your all wrong because I'm town. and unless your scum you don't want to kill me. So its pretty obvious that you should vote for scum instead of me.