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Author Topic: New Promo at Origins...  (Read 140282 times)

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Witherweaver

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #350 on: June 23, 2014, 07:22:06 pm »
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I think the wording is fine, too. Prince says to set a card aside then gas an "If you do..." clause.  The clause is not "if the card is not set aside", it is 'if you do (the previous thing)" and the previous thing is to set it aside with Prince. So "in this manner" is not needed.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 07:25:05 pm by Witherweaver »
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cluckyb

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #351 on: June 23, 2014, 07:24:36 pm »
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It's not "fail to set aside (when you cleanup)" its "fail to set it aside (on a turn you play it)"

You're wrong and this has been discussed earlier in the thread. In particular in the FAQ posted by Donald:

If you don't discard the Action then you stop playing it with Prince; Prince at that point is just set aside doing nothing for the rest of the game. That won't normally happen but will happen for example if the Action is a Feast or Mining Village and you trashed it, or if it's a duration card and so it stayed in play, or if it's a Madman and was returned to its pile, or if it's an Island and was set aside, or if it's a card you put back on your deck with Scheme.

I mean sure, if Donald wants to clarify "The text on this card is all a red herring. When you play this card, you actually just draw two cards" then he can do whatever he wants. I'm just saying that judging strictly from the wording on the card, you should get to keep playing Island multiple times. Should've gone with something like "fail to set this aside in this manner" if he didn't want it to work with Island.

The wording of Prince is a bit tricky, but it says stop playing it if you are unable to set aside the card. Island is not set aside by Prince. Island sets itself aside.

Let's look at this like a typical action.
Smithy
Play Prince: set aside Smithy
Next turn: Prince plays Smithy
Cleanup: Smithy is still in play, Smithy is set aside by Prince

Now, here is Island
Play Prince: set aside Island
Next turn: Prince Plays Island
Island sets aside itself and another card
Cleanup: Island set itself aside so Prince lost track of it, therefore, Prince can not set it aside.

Sure. But the wording specifically says "set aside this turn", rather than indicating it was set aside by the prince. Seems to me that any valid way it was set aside should be good enough going off just the wording of the card.
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Witherweaver

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #352 on: June 23, 2014, 07:26:30 pm »
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If Island set it aside, then Prince did not, so clause fails.  It is written correctly.
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eHalcyon

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #353 on: June 23, 2014, 07:32:19 pm »
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It keeps getting mentioned that princing a curser is a bad idea, which it is, but Followers would by far the exception to the rule. Man, that would hurt. Of course, if you get Followers on a non-cursing board, chances are your opponent has already resigned.

The thing with this is that Followers also means Tournament, and Tournament means you probably want to be using your $8 hands for Province rather than Prince.  I expect Tournament games will move too fast for Prince to be worthwhile, most of the time.

In most Tournament games you want one early Province and then build a lot more before you start adding additional green. Prince being on board and the prospect of princing a Prize only encourages building.

Hmmm, OK then.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #354 on: June 23, 2014, 07:36:42 pm »
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It's not "fail to set aside (when you cleanup)" its "fail to set it aside (on a turn you play it)"

You're wrong and this has been discussed earlier in the thread. In particular in the FAQ posted by Donald:

If you don't discard the Action then you stop playing it with Prince; Prince at that point is just set aside doing nothing for the rest of the game. That won't normally happen but will happen for example if the Action is a Feast or Mining Village and you trashed it, or if it's a duration card and so it stayed in play, or if it's a Madman and was returned to its pile, or if it's an Island and was set aside, or if it's a card you put back on your deck with Scheme.

I mean sure, if Donald wants to clarify "The text on this card is all a red herring. When you play this card, you actually just draw two cards" then he can do whatever he wants. I'm just saying that judging strictly from the wording on the card, you should get to keep playing Island multiple times. Should've gone with something like "fail to set this aside in this manner" if he didn't want it to work with Island.

The wording of Prince is a bit tricky, but it says stop playing it if you are unable to set aside the card. Island is not set aside by Prince. Island sets itself aside.

Let's look at this like a typical action.
Smithy
Play Prince: set aside Smithy
Next turn: Prince plays Smithy
Cleanup: Smithy is still in play, Smithy is set aside by Prince

Now, here is Island
Play Prince: set aside Island
Next turn: Prince Plays Island
Island sets aside itself and another card
Cleanup: Island set itself aside so Prince lost track of it, therefore, Prince can not set it aside.

Sure. But the wording specifically says "set aside this turn", rather than indicating it was set aside by the prince. Seems to me that any valid way it was set aside should be good enough going off just the wording of the card.

Do you have the DA rule book? If so, it has the lose track rule in it. You should read up on it.
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Witherweaver

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #355 on: June 23, 2014, 07:44:07 pm »
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Oh. I was wrong in that the "If you do.." Part is for setting Prince itself aside.  In any case, lose track rule covers it well.
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SirPeebles

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #356 on: June 24, 2014, 12:42:36 am »
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This is clearly both an engine card and slog card.

I'm not so sure this is a slog card. It is way too likely for Prince to fail a collision in a slog.

Also, one of the biggest perks of Prince is that you can get free +cards or +actions much of the time, but those are significantly less valuable in slogs.  Of course, there are also cards which would be great in a slog, like Remodel or a solid +$.
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soulnet

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #357 on: June 24, 2014, 06:59:58 am »
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This is clearly both an engine card and slog card.

I'm not so sure this is a slog card. It is way too likely for Prince to fail a collision in a slog.

If you are slogging actions, like a Vineyards slog or Fairgrounds slog with Ruins and/or Knights, you may have a decent enough action density. Also in Gardens games with gainers, but you won't get to $8 and the game is most likely a rush and not a slog for Prince to matter.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #358 on: June 24, 2014, 08:07:58 am »
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It's not "fail to set aside (when you cleanup)" its "fail to set it aside (on a turn you play it)"

You're wrong and this has been discussed earlier in the thread. In particular in the FAQ posted by Donald:

If you don't discard the Action then you stop playing it with Prince; Prince at that point is just set aside doing nothing for the rest of the game. That won't normally happen but will happen for example if the Action is a Feast or Mining Village and you trashed it, or if it's a duration card and so it stayed in play, or if it's a Madman and was returned to its pile, or if it's an Island and was set aside, or if it's a card you put back on your deck with Scheme.

I mean sure, if Donald wants to clarify "The text on this card is all a red herring. When you play this card, you actually just draw two cards" then he can do whatever he wants. I'm just saying that judging strictly from the wording on the card, you should get to keep playing Island multiple times. Should've gone with something like "fail to set this aside in this manner" if he didn't want it to work with Island.

The wording of Prince is a bit tricky, but it says stop playing it if you are unable to set aside the card. Island is not set aside by Prince. Island sets itself aside.

Let's look at this like a typical action.
Smithy
Play Prince: set aside Smithy
Next turn: Prince plays Smithy
Cleanup: Smithy is still in play, Smithy is set aside by Prince

Now, here is Island
Play Prince: set aside Island
Next turn: Prince Plays Island
Island sets aside itself and another card
Cleanup: Island set itself aside so Prince lost track of it, therefore, Prince can not set it aside.

Sure. But the wording specifically says "set aside this turn", rather than indicating it was set aside by the prince. Seems to me that any valid way it was set aside should be good enough going off just the wording of the card.

Do you have the DA rule book? If so, it has the lose track rule in it. You should read up on it.


"setting it aside again when you discard it from play."

From that phrase, I would argue that since the Island wasn't discarded, the Prince doesn't even try to set it aside (and thus doesn't trigger a failure). Then because the parenthetical "stop playing it" phrase doesn't actually specify that the setting aside has to be from the prince itself, I'm inclined to agree with cluckyb that the text indicates that you would try to play Island again.

I think the real saving grace for the "unprinceable island" is the lose track rule from Dark Ages. At the start of the next turn, prince has lost track of the Island, so it can't play it again.
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enfynet

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #359 on: June 24, 2014, 10:25:43 am »
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That same argument would equate Durations being set aside on the next turn, because they were discarded. Island never gets discarded, so it cannot be "set aside when discarded."
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Witherweaver

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #360 on: June 24, 2014, 10:28:32 am »
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That same argument would equate Durations being set aside on the next turn, because they were discarded. Island never gets discarded, so it cannot be "set aside when discarded."

How would that argument work?  The Duration does not get discarded, so Prince does not set it aside, so Prince cannot play it the next turn, so Prince cannot set it aside the next turn.
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AJD

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #361 on: June 24, 2014, 10:29:44 am »
+1

I think the real saving grace for the "unprinceable island" is the lose track rule from Dark Ages. At the start of the next turn, prince has lost track of the Island, so it can't play it again.

The lose-track rule does not stop you from playing a card.
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enfynet

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #362 on: June 24, 2014, 11:34:18 am »
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That same argument would equate Durations being set aside on the next turn, because they were discarded. Island never gets discarded, so it cannot be "set aside when discarded."

How would that argument work?  The Duration does not get discarded, so Prince does not set it aside, so Prince cannot play it the next turn, so Prince cannot set it aside the next turn.
Quote
You may set this aside. If you do, set aside an Action card from your hand costing up to ( 4 ). At the start of each of your turns, play that Action, setting it aside again when you discard it from play. (Stop playing it if you fail to set it aside on a turn you play it.)
If Island gets to ignore the bold, durations can ignore the paranthetical.
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Witherweaver

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #363 on: June 24, 2014, 11:40:13 am »
0

That same argument would equate Durations being set aside on the next turn, because they were discarded. Island never gets discarded, so it cannot be "set aside when discarded."

How would that argument work?  The Duration does not get discarded, so Prince does not set it aside, so Prince cannot play it the next turn, so Prince cannot set it aside the next turn.
Quote
You may set this aside. If you do, set aside an Action card from your hand costing up to ( 4 ). At the start of each of your turns, play that Action, setting it aside again when you discard it from play. (Stop playing it if you fail to set it aside on a turn you play it.)
If Island gets to ignore the bold, durations can ignore the paranthetical.

Huh?  I don't follow.  Island is not ignoring anything.  It is lost track of, so the bold fails, so you stop playing it.

Similarly, Durations fail the bold because they are not discarded.
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enfynet

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #364 on: June 24, 2014, 11:42:56 am »
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Island fails the bold, durations fail the parenthetical. Island is not discarded. Durations are not discarded on the turn they are played.)
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Witherweaver

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #365 on: June 24, 2014, 12:01:16 pm »
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Island fails the bold, durations fail the parenthetical. Island is not discarded. Durations are not discarded on the turn they are played.)

Duration fails the bold.  You play Prince, setting aside a Duration.  At the start of your next turn, you play that Duration, setting it aside again when you discard it from play.  You do not discard it from play, so you do not set it aside again. 

Or maybe we're saying the same thing.  It fails to do what's in the bold, so the parenthetical applies to it.
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BadAssMutha

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #366 on: June 24, 2014, 12:36:45 pm »
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Quote
Quote
You may set this aside. If you do, set aside an Action card from your hand costing up to ( 4 ). At the start of each of your turns, play that Action, setting it aside again when you discard it from play. (Stop playing it if you fail to set it aside on a turn you play it.)

Duration fails the bold.  You play Prince, setting aside a Duration.  At the start of your next turn, you play that Duration, setting it aside again when you discard it from play.  You do not discard it from play, so you do not set it aside again. 

Or maybe we're saying the same thing.  It fails to do what's in the bold, so the parenthetical applies to it.

Durations fail the bold only on the turn they're played, and not on the following turn. Without the parenthetical, I think Prince would play the duration every other turn, setting it aside again when it's discarded on the turn after it's played. But with the parenthesis, it's clear that the duration shouldn't be Princed again because it was not set aside.
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Witherweaver

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #367 on: June 24, 2014, 01:48:41 pm »
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Quote
Quote
You may set this aside. If you do, set aside an Action card from your hand costing up to ( 4 ). At the start of each of your turns, play that Action, setting it aside again when you discard it from play. (Stop playing it if you fail to set it aside on a turn you play it.)

Duration fails the bold.  You play Prince, setting aside a Duration.  At the start of your next turn, you play that Duration, setting it aside again when you discard it from play.  You do not discard it from play, so you do not set it aside again. 

Or maybe we're saying the same thing.  It fails to do what's in the bold, so the parenthetical applies to it.

Durations fail the bold only on the turn they're played, and not on the following turn. Without the parenthetical, I think Prince would play the duration every other turn, setting it aside again when it's discarded on the turn after it's played. But with the parenthesis, it's clear that the duration shouldn't be Princed again because it was not set aside.

Durations are only played one turn, so that's the only turn they can fail.  On the following turn, the Duration has its normal duration effect and is discarded as normal.  The card you set aside with Prince is not played the turn you play Prince; it's played the next turn. 

The parenthetical isn't really needed here, it's just to clarify.  You fail to set the duration aside, because it is not discarded.  Because you failed to set it aside, you're going to fail to play it again the next turn with Prince.  That would be the natural interpretation even if the parenthetical wasn't there. 
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Gherald

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #368 on: June 24, 2014, 02:12:17 pm »
+1

The parenthetical is necessary.

It is necessary because without it, the duration card would still be discarded from play on the next turn.  It is not clear that Prince shouldn't resume playing it on the following turn.  I would argue that it should resume playing the duration and that this was the natural intent of the Prince card's behavior with durations -- essentially a permanent duration effect.  Which is not terribly powerful because durations are already designed to give a modest effect on two turns, and getting the effect on every odd turn due to the card itself rather than due to Prince is actually not taking full advantage of Prince's benefit.

So I'm surprised that the parenthetical was included, but it does have the effect of making Prince rather useless with a certain type of card and I guess some people will like that twist for whatever reason.
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Witherweaver

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #369 on: June 24, 2014, 02:24:30 pm »
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The parenthetical is necessary.

It is necessary because without it, the duration card would still be discarded from play on the next turn.  It is not clear that Prince shouldn't resume playing it on the following turn.  I would argue that it should resume playing the duration and that this was the natural intent of the Prince card's behavior with durations -- essentially a permanent duration effect.  Which is not terribly powerful because durations are already designed to give a modest effect on two turns, and getting the effect on every odd turn due to the card itself rather than due to Prince is actually not taking full advantage of Prince's benefit.

So I'm surprised that the parenthetical was included, but it does have the effect of making Prince rather useless with a certain type of card and I guess some people will like that twist for whatever reason.

I don't really agree about the parenthetical.  I think from "set aside an Action card from your hand costing up to ( 4 ). At the start of each of your turns, play that Action, setting it aside again when you discard it from play." it's clear that you play the card from being "set aside".  If it's not set aside, you lose track of it and can't play it.

I mean without the parenthetical, it's clear it does not work correctly with Durations.  Play Prince on a Caravan.  Next turn, play Caravan from Prince.  At the end of your turn, Caravan does not get discarded.  Next turn, what happens?  I see no reason to think that Prince would play Caravan... why would it?  Carvan should do it's regular duration effect, since it was played the previous turn.  So, Caravan draws a card, and at the end of that turn, it is discarded as normal.  Does Prince set it aside?  No, why would it?  Prince did not play Caravan this turn, so why would it set it aside?
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Gherald

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #370 on: June 24, 2014, 02:41:07 pm »
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You can argue about my interpretation of the card without the parenthetical (I disagree, I don't see Prince losing track of a card just because its duration is more than one turn.)

But you cannot argue that the parenthetical isn't necessary to clarify the situation.  It obviously is.
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Witherweaver

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #371 on: June 24, 2014, 02:43:14 pm »
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You can argue about my interpretation of the card without the parenthetical (I disagree, I don't see Prince losing track of a card just because its duration is more than one turn.)

It's duration is more than one turn?  I don't understand what that means.  Prince loses track because it's not set aside.  How can Prince play a card if it's in-play form its duration effect?

Quote
But you cannot argue that the parenthetical isn't necessary to clarify the situation.  It obviously is.

I'm saying yes, it helps clarify, but I think the interpretation must be the same with or without it.
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eHalcyon

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #372 on: June 24, 2014, 04:23:59 pm »
+5

I think the parenthetical is necessary.  Here is my interpretation.

Breaking it down, Prince says:

1. Set aside an Action card from your hand costing up to $4.
2. At the start of each of your turns, play that Action.
3. Set that action aside again when you discard it from play.
4. Stop playing that action if you fail to set it aside on a turn you play it.

1 determines the princed action.
2 tells you to play that action repeatedly.
3 tells you when to set it aside again, for the purpose of bookkeeping.
4 tells you when the action stops getting played.

Let's consider what happens with Caravan.

On the turn you play Prince, you set aside Caravan according to 1.
On the second turn, you play Caravan according to 2.
At the end of that turn, you do not discard Caravan so 3 doesn't even trigger.  Caravan does not get set aside.
Because you fail to set it aside on this turn on which you played Caravan, 4 stops Prince from playing Caravan again.

If you remove the parenthetical, then there is no 4 and Prince never says to stop playing Caravan.  Number 3 does not say "stop".  Even though you fail to set it aside, Caravan will continue to be played.  Instead of the above, the following would happen:

1. Set Caravan aside with Prince on turn 1.
2. Play Caravan on turn 2.
3. Get duration effects of Caravan AND play it again.  Repeat this step for every subsequent turn.

It's only because of the parenthetical that you need to set aside the card to play it again with Prince.  If not for that, the card would get played no matter what.  Even if the card is already in play or if the card trashed itself, it would still get played again, just like it works with Throne Room when the throned card is already in play (most cases) or when it trashes itself.
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Witherweaver

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #373 on: June 24, 2014, 04:28:37 pm »
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I don't quite agree with #3.

"3 tells you when to set it aside again, for the purpose of bookkeeping."

3 tells you when to set it aside again so that Prince is able to play it the next turn.  It can't just be in limbo, and it can't be discarded or left in play.

I don't see why the lose track rule would not apply in your scenario with no #4.
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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #374 on: June 24, 2014, 04:31:59 pm »
+5

I don't quite agree with #3.

"3 tells you when to set it aside again, for the purpose of bookkeeping."

3 tells you when to set it aside again so that Prince is able to play it the next turn.  It can't just be in limbo, and it can't be discarded or left in play.

I don't see why the lose track rule would not apply in your scenario with no #4.

For the same reason the lose track rule doesn't apply to a throned feast. You don't need to know where something is in order to play it. Lose track only applies to moving something from one place to another. Basically a card cannot move another card (or itself) if the target card isn't in the place the acting card expects it to be.
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