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[silverspawn]

Concerning several things that happened to me in online dominion, aswell as some things that I've read in various other threads, I have become curious as to what kind of behavior is considered to be bad manner and what isn't. Since I don't see much use to discuss this in a vaccuum, I will list every case to address it individually, and write what I personally think about each point. This is of course just my opinion not a universal truth; the goal here is to start a discussion.

I have not found a thread similar to this one, only some threads discussing single points, though I don't think a little bit of repetition will hurt anyone.

1. Resigning the game early
I have had long discussions about this topic in other forums about other games in the past. I still think that having a problem with early-resigning can only be the result of a lack of thought and/or consideration. You don't sign in a contract when joining or creating a game, therefore you can't be forced to stay in it any longer then you want. Even from the point of maximizing efficiency it doesn't make sense, since you wont learn as much from a game which is already decided than from a new one. If you lost due to misplay of any kind, you can already take home your lesson at that point, and if it was just bad drawing, there is unlikely to be anything useful you can take home from playing the game to its end.

Obviously, all of this only applies for 2-Player games.

2. Playing engines that take super-long/ending the game quickly by 3-piling.
I've combined these two into one, because my thoughts on both are almost identical: if you hesitate from doing either of those because you consider it bad manner, you are degrading your own game, because you are deliberately ignoring options that the game offers. Both complicated engines and 3piling are simply the right way to play in certain situations. On a personal level, I also can't understand how someone could ever get the idea that 3piling is bm, because it's one of the least luck dependent and therefore most elegant ways to play. Nevertheless, I have heard people complaining about both in the past.

3. Playing extremely slow for no game-specific reason
This is probably the least controversial point on the list. If you drag out the game on purpose just to frustrate your opponent and force him into resigning, you are deliberately stealing time, and that is as bm as it gets. There's not really much more to say about this.

3.5 Semi-Intentionally dragging out the game due to lags
What I mean by this is, if the game freezes every few seconds, but it only happens during your turns. This might be an entierly differnet story for some people, hence the new point, but I think the answer is the same. It doesn't even matter if the lags are your fault are a result of goko failing, the only mannered thing to do in such a situation has to be resigning.

4. Ignoring the chat
By this I mostly mean people who just ignore you when you ask them a simple thing. I used to get really annoyed by this, since I'm not especially talkative or sth, and it's not hard to write a short answer to a simple question. Still though, for all I know the other player might not understand English or have a broken keyboard, so it's really far fetched to assume any sort of bad manner, just because your opponent is not doing something. So while it can be annoying, I don't think it's bm.

balls. you can't chat from ipods, so it can't be bm.

5. Quitting the game without writing gg
This point has a lot of history, depending which background one is coming from. I come from playing a lot of SC2, where it is widely considered to be bm, yet at the same time over half of all games end without anyone writing gg. I've also talked to people who don't understand the possible reasons for "ragequitting", thus considering it to be a liberate display of bad manner every time. This is so because it highly depends how emotional/invested you are about/in the game, be it sc2, chess or dominion. I am very invested, and having been on the receiving end countless times, I can fully understand not being in the mood to congratulate your opponent for winning every time, so I don't have any problem with people who just leave. I also don't always gg myself, it very much depends on which mood I'm in. Either way, I think it's wrong to expect your opponent to be okay with you winning, irrespective of how you played, since you can't know how hard he takes the loss. If you really need it, you can silently think gg to yourself.

6. Writing an "offensive" gg after winning the game
Ok, so, I put this last because it's the point where I'm most likely going to be swimming against the stream, because I absolutely hate it. There is nothing worse than writing gg first after you won a game, I hate it so much that I have to stop myself from writing something rude every time. Why? Because you are congratulating yourself for winning, and even more, you are asking your opponent to agree with you, by writing gg himself. The main problem here is that, other than in RTS, a lot of players aren't even aware that someone might have a problem with it, and might just think it shows good manner either way. It's also hard to claim that they are wrong, because there are no objectively valid arguments, and no-one can be forced to respect what is a kind of weird online consensus. Because of this, I can't claim it's bm, no matter how much I dislike it. What I mostly do is avoid this situation by leaving early (I tend to resign games >90% when I'm losing), or politely ask my opponent not to do it in the future. Also, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who has a problem with this...

7: Complaining about luck (proposal)
Yea, there's that too. People actually do this very frequently. I could take it more seriously if Dominion weren't a game in which you lose at least 30% of your games because of luck. If someone does complain about it, I usually agree with him (If I feel that it was indeed luck), but also tell him that there's no point complaining, because, well, you're playing Dominion. I definitely don't consider it bad manner, and while I for once can't directly relate here, it would still be wrong to make fun of someone in that situation, as it's wrong to rub your win into someone's face.

8: Not having "#vpoff" in the title of your game, but disallowing the vp counter anyway (proposal)
Well, I'm biased here, because I think vp counters are really dumb, but trying to objective, I must admit that you really should put it in the title, mostly because there really isn't any reason not to. Even if just a few people have a problem with it, since you can avoid it so easily, there's no reason to cause a disadvantage for said people. I haven't really thought this through previously, but from now on I'll make sure to put "#vpoff" in the title whenever I host a game.

Oh, and unless you know him, you obv. can't assume bm whenever someone else doesn't do it, because he might simply not know about the extension.

So, that's my thoughts. Whad'd you think? Even a simple bm yes/no statement for every point would be interesting. I can also add some points to the list if I missed something worth talking about.

[sudgy]

I agree with 1, 2, 3, and 6.  I'm not sure about 3.5, and I'm okay with not saying gg.  The reason I'm not agreeing with 4 is that I know you can't chat on some platforms (I think ipad is one of them).

You're not alone on 6, it's just a bit more controversial.  I only say gg when I win if it actually was a good game.  I always say it when I lose, though.

[flies]

i can attest to chat not working on ipad.  as to other platforms i have no idea.

[flies]

as to 3.5, i have occasionally just played out your turn in the "normal" way, i.e. generating the maximum payload, even when i could just buy something to win the game.  I agree that this is bad manners, but sometimes you're just in the flow and don't realize it.  Also, if I've built a mega-turn engine, I really want to see that thing go off full blast, so in that case I think it's totally acceptable.  Here, the alternative seems to be to calculating whether you have enough "mega" to win in the middle of your turn, which seems like it would just drag the game out more.

[SCSN]

Either way, I think it's wrong to expect your enemy to be okay with you winning, irrespective of how you played, since you can't know how hard he takes the loss. If you really need it, you can silently think gg to yourself.

Of course I expect my opponent to be okay with me winning. If he can't handle a loss he shouldn't be playing.

Why? Because you are congratulating yourself for winning, and even more, you are asking your enemy to agree with you, by writing gg himself.

First and foremost, my opponent is never my enemy. I have come across opponents who are really unpleasant to play with, but I'll just blacklist them and never give them a second thought. Framing your opponent as an enemy and a game as a fight you have to win might well be the cause of this whole antagonistic under-current in your post.

And by saying "gg" I'm not congratulating myself, I'm just shaking your hand out of politeness.

What I mostly do is avoid this situation by leaving early (I tend to resign games >90% when I'm losing)

I think leaving early without saying anything, provided that you have the ability to chat and are not in some sort of multi-game session where it's understood that you meet again right away, is pretty bad, a bit like suddenly turning around and walking away in the middle of a conversation.

[silverspawn]

totally didn't think about ipads. yea, that makes this point pretty much redundant.

as to 3.5, i have occasionally just played out your turn in the "normal" way, i.e. generating the maximum payload, even when i could just buy something to win the game.  I agree that this is bad manners, but sometimes you're just in the flow and don't realize it.

i think you missunderstand. 3.5 meant if you just have lags constantly, so that normal turns take forever. if you can just buy something to win the game but drag it out because it seems fun, i think that's totally ok, because your enemy can just leave. i also do that, i even take time to calculate points sometimes, so that i can buy a number of curses to win with exactly one point advance.

First and foremost, my opponent is never my enemy. I have come across opponents who are really unpleasant to play with, but I'll just blacklist them and never give them a second thought. Framing your opponent as an enemy and a game as a fight you have to win might well be the cause of this whole antagonistic under-current in your post.

english isn't my first language, i didn't know there's a difference how the words "opponent" and "enemy" are perceived. which one i used in my opening post is completely arbitrary. so, there is nothing to be interpreted in how i used these words. I'll even edit it... might avoid further confusion

[BadAssMutha]

I agree with you on all points except for 6. I just don't get why saying "gg" first after winning can be considered bad manners. Usually, I'll only say it if the game actually was "g", and I intend it as an acknowledgement of my opponent's skill. I'm not congratulating myself on my own win, and I don't necessarily expect my opponent to agree with me. To me, even at it's worst, "gg" is just a meaningless platitude that people toss out there without much thought, like the handshake and gg at the end of a little league game. The only time I could imagine taking issue with a gg is if it was in fact a bg - one lost due to misclicks, or getting railed by the only Mountebank in the Black Market after turn 3.

[Qvist]

Quick question to silverspawn: Imagine the following scenario. You just won a game. You are now with your opponent in the 'Game Over' screen. He doesn't say 'gg' and he doesn't leave either. What should you do?

1) Say gg nonetheless
2) Leave without saying anything

[silverspawn]

Either way, I think it's wrong to expect your enemy to be okay with you winning, irrespective of how you played, since you can't know how hard he takes the loss. If you really need it, you can silently think gg to yourself.

Of course I expect my opponent to be okay with me winning. If he can't handle a loss he shouldn't be playing.

Why? Because you are congratulating yourself for winning, and even more, you are asking your enemy to agree with you, by writing gg himself.

First and foremost, my opponent is never my enemy. I have come across opponents who are really unpleasant to play with, but I'll just blacklist them and never give them a second thought. Framing your opponent as an enemy and a game as a fight you have to win might well be the cause of this whole antagonistic under-current in your post.

And by saying "gg" I'm not congratulating myself, I'm just shaking your hand out of politeness.

What I mostly do is avoid this situation by leaving early (I tend to resign games >90% when I'm losing)

I think leaving early without saying anything, provided that you have the ability to chat and are not in some sort of multi-game session where it's understood that you meet again right away, is pretty bad, a bit like suddenly turning around and walking away in the middle of a conversation.

I think the problem you are having is that you lack different perspectives. you apparently never lose self-control due to losses - which itself is certainly a good thing -, and you instinctivally expect your opponent to be fine with losing also. However, not everyone will stay as collected as you. I have a history of destroying my headset (which by the way was pretty expensive) twice, and my chair once due to anger after losing sc2 matches. Playing as much as I did has helped a lot to improve my self control, to the point where I am now. But on the way I have learned that you if your opponent is mad after losing, just leave him alone. Expecting anything from him in this moment is short sided, arrogant and very insensitive.

Again - just my opinion, I certainly don't want to get personal.

Quick question to silverspawn: Imagine the following scenario. You just won a game. You are now with your opponent in the 'Game Over' screen. He doesn't say 'gg' and he doesn't leave either. What should you do?

1) Say gg nonetheless
2) Leave without saying anything

Leave, definitely. I really, really hate offensive gg's, there are few other things which i dislike to a similar degree. I'm most definitely never going to do it myself.

[Awaclus]

I think that 6 might or might not be bad manners depending on the situation. When I'm playing against a stranger who quits three games without saying GG and then says GG when he finally manages to connect his Treasure Maps or whatever, it's bad manners, but if it's someone from the forums who's being friendly and polite throughout the games and always says GG first regardless of the outcome of the game, it's pretty obvious that they're not doing it out of douchebagginess. I never say gg first after winning a game myself, though.

Quick question to silverspawn: Imagine the following scenario. You just won a game. You are now with your opponent in the 'Game Over' screen. He doesn't say 'gg' and he doesn't leave either. What should you do?

1) Say gg nonetheless
2) Leave without saying anything

Because we are all WanderingWinder anyway, I'll answer this question too: If it's someone from the forums or someone I play frequently, then 3) Say "thanks for the game". Otherwise 2).

[silverspawn]

I agree with you on all points except for 6. I just don't get why saying "gg" first after winning can be considered bad manners. Usually, I'll only say it if the game actually was "g", and I intend it as an acknowledgement of my opponent's skill. I'm not congratulating myself on my own win, and I don't necessarily expect my opponent to agree with me. To me, even at it's worst, "gg" is just a meaningless platitude that people toss out there without much thought, like the handshake and gg at the end of a little league game. The only time I could imagine taking issue with a gg is if it was in fact a bg - one lost due to misclicks, or getting railed by the only Mountebank in the Black Market after turn 3.

it's just a matter of respect. There are, simplified, 2 cases: either your enemy is ok with you winning, or he isn't. He might be mad at you for doing lame tactics (like just playing rebuild), he might be mad at goko/god for having bad draws or he might just be mad at himself for playing bad. And he might also just be angry for no logical reason. Point is, he can chose whether to write gg or not, and in this way express his emotional state. If he does chose to write gg, it's completely fine to agree with him (=writing it yourself.) If he doesn't, however, reading a gg from you is the last thing he wants. Doing it anyway is like saying: "hey, you lost, I won, now get over your stupid problems and shake my hand. I can deal with losses so learn to do it too." And you're doing that to someone who's just trying to deal with his anger at that moment

Or, you know, you might have never thought about it and write it without considering what it can make your opponent feel. But that's one of the reasons I thought opening this thread would be a good idea.

[SirPeebles]

With 6), you are assuming quite a bit of ill will.  If I say "good game", it means that I found the game enjoyable.  Maybe I'm just less competitive than most, but enjoyment and winning are not at all the same.

In general, I don't find abbreviations like gg particularly polite.  It is like when someone says ty rather than thanks or thank you.  It feels lazy and insincere to me.

[silverspawn]

With 6), you are assuming quite a bit of ill will.

Well... no. I don't. I said several times that people might write gg without any bad intentions whatsoever. Even in my opening post i stated

a lot of players aren't even aware that someone might have a problem with it, and might just think it shows good manner either way.

All I'm trying to do is to encourage people to put more consideration into it.

[jsh357]

4/5/6) I usually don't bother saying gg because I'm too lazy to type in the position I'm normally sitting when playing Dominion online.  I know that sounds crazy but it's true.  If someone starts a conversation about the game I'll usually respond.  If it was a particularly interesting game I might say something at the end.  I don't know/care if this is normal etiquette because I try not to get offended by how people act on the internet these days--I'm sure they have their reasons and/or idiosyncrasies just like me.  I do get annoyed by people cussing me out / complaining about luck in a harsh way / saying I'm cheating.  The third has only happened to me twice.  The second is the most common and is a huge pet peeve of mine.  If I whined every time I had bad luck in a game of Dominion I'd have a terrible reputation.  (JSH SECRETS: I used to whine audibly IRL; really got on my wife's nerves)

EDIT: My main gg related complaint is when people say it before a game is over.  If they resign immediately after, fine.  Otherwise, it brings up the stupid chat window and interrupts my turn.  I would rather people say nothing and be 'impolite' than interrupt my clicking.  #FirstDominionProblems

1) is a no-brainer.  Resigning is fair game and people who think otherwise don't understand the game enough to know that there are some holes you cannot dig out of.  Also, I mean, stuff happens outside of games sometimes.  2) is a silly reason to get upset.  It's an engine-based game and true pros try to 3 pile games anyway.  3/3.5) depends on what you mean; sometimes I will continue fighting in a bad situation because I have a glimmer of hope I don't want to give up on.  However, I get really annoyed by players who are mathematically out of the game/are winning by a lot and won't resign/end things in a reasonable amount of time.  Mainly the latter, btw.  If you don't REALIZE you're in the hole I don't hold it against you.  This is one of the best reasons to play with a point counter on Goko at any rate. 

[SirPeebles]

With 6), you are assuming quite a bit of ill will.

Well... no. I don't. I said several times that people might write gg without any bad intentions whatsoever. Even in my opening post i stated

Where did you say that?  I'm not finding it in the opening post.  What I did find is the following unqualified accusation:

There is nothing worse than writing gg first after you won a game, I hate it so much that I have to stop myself from writing something rude every time. Why? Because you are congratulating yourself for winning, and even more, you are asking your opponent to agree with you, by writing gg himself.

Now, obviously there is some hyperbole here; you do not really mean that this is worse than murder.  But you are stating that the intent of the gg is self congratulations.  That is not my intention when I write "good game".  I am also not asking my opponent to agree to anything.

[casuist]

There are, simplified, 2 cases: either your enemy is ok with you winning, or he isn't.

For many of us who love games, being "ok with [our opponent] winning" is just a given. I play a lot of games, both online and IRL, and it had never occurred to me that someone over the age of, say, eight, would get so mad about losing that they would become truly upset if I say something as innocuous as "good game" -- which, to me, just means "thanks, I enjoyed playing with you, see you later". Sometimes you say it, sometimes you don't. I don't pay a lot of attention to it, either way. I didn't realize that it had a different meaning or connotation for some people, or that losing one of presumably thousands of online games could generate such rage.

So, I guess your thread has succeeded in opening my eyes, although... I'm not sure the problem is with the folks saying "gg"...

[AdamH]

Here's a thought: in cases where I want to play out my last turn fully even though I already have the win in my hand. I think playing out your last turn to its fullest is a good idea for game play.

I'm not the best person in the world at counting, so even if I enter the turn thinking I only need a single Province to win, maybe I need to pick up an extra Duchy or something because I miscounted. What would you say to the idea that it's a good habit to always get as many points as you can on the last turn, regardless of the score? With point counter on this doesn't apply, as well as other weird situations where there's only one Province left and no other way to score VP.

I was streaming this week and one guy I played didn't seem to like the fact that I played all my coin tokens on my last turn even though I didn't need them all. For me, that's just a good habit: "I'm ending the game this turn so I'll spend all my coin tokens;" on Goko, if this saves me from one miscalculation or misclick that would have cost me the game, then it's worth it to do it every time. So while it may come off as excessive, I think there are points to be made that it supports good game play habits. If someone insisted on never using the "Play Treasures" button I would not begrudge them for it, even if it made the game take longer.

If I'm wrong, please tell me how.

[markusin]

About 1)
I seem to be the weird one that assumes everyone thinks in a way opposite myself. I'm always happy to see me opponent resign, because that means I don't have to play out my turns anymore and can move on to the next game. Whether I play out my last turn to the fullest or just end my turn prematurely and empty the necessary pile really depends on my mood. However, I pretty much never resign because I assume the other player wants to play out the game to the end.

6) I rarely say gg first when I win, but always say it when I lose. I'll only say gg first if it really was a great game. I also come from playing RTS games, where saying "gg" as opposed to "good game" is commonplace.
When my opponent wins and says gg first, I always assume it's in good will, like when SCSN says it.

[KingZog3]

I say gg when it was, quite literally, a good game whether I won or lost. Sometimes I'm behind and just barely scrape a win, but my opponent played really well. That's a gg. Sometimes I lose, but it was still a gg. It's different if I win 100-5, that's not gg, so I don't say it. Instead I sometimes try to explain what went wrong or something, without being condescending.

[dondon151]

The reason why "gg" could be perceived as offensive is that one of the parties might not think that the game was "good" (either because he played poorly or had less than fortunate luck). So I don't personally like to "gg."

[KingZog3]

The reason why "gg" could be perceived as offensive is that one of the parties might not think that the game was "good" (either because he played poorly or had less than fortunate luck). So I don't personally like to "gg."

I understand what the complaint is. But it just seems people are determined to think other people are dicks. Maybe some people are, but just assume the gg is genuine, whether your opponent knows what he's talking about or not. He enjoyed the game, he thought you played well, take it as a compliment. There's no issue. It's all in your head.

[theory]

I am habituated to always say "gg" at the end of every game, win or lose.  I acknowledge that it was a "good game", that is, not marred by disrespectful rude behavior.

Realizing that people, for whatever bizarre reason, take offense to this, I have started to say instead "thanks for the game".  It is totally illogical to me to impute imaginary derogatory motives to someone and then get mad at them for having those same imaginary motives.  But whatever.

[silverspawn]

Here's a thought: in cases where I want to play out my last turn fully even though I already have the win in my hand. I think playing out your last turn to its fullest is a good idea for game play.

I'm not the best person in the world at counting, so even if I enter the turn thinking I only need a single Province to win, maybe I need to pick up an extra Duchy or something because I miscounted. What would you say to the idea that it's a good habit to always get as many points as you can on the last turn, regardless of the score? With point counter on this doesn't apply, as well as other weird situations where there's only one Province left and no other way to score VP.

I was streaming this week and one guy I played didn't seem to like the fact that I played all my coin tokens on my last turn even though I didn't need them all. For me, that's just a good habit: "I'm ending the game this turn so I'll spend all my coin tokens;" on Goko, if this saves me from one miscalculation or misclick that would have cost me the game, then it's worth it to do it every time. So while it may come off as excessive, I think there are points to be made that it supports good game play habits. If someone insisted on never using the "Play Treasures" button I would not begrudge them for it, even if it made the game take longer.

If I'm wrong, please tell me how.

No, that's not what i meant at all. maybe I just did a poor job describing these two points, since they seem to be unclear. To clarify: what I mean with 3.0 is (in its most extreme form): waiting several minutes between every two decisions - as long as possible without being kicked for inactivity -, so that every turn takes 10+ minutes. this is something people will mostly do when they're behind, the goal is usually to drag the game out so long that your opponent eventually becomes too frustrated and resigns just so he doesn't have to waste his time.

if you didn't count and therefore want to make sure that you get as many points as possible, spending half a minute more  on your last turn is completely fine. that's certainly not dragging the game out for no reason, and spending coin tokens is just a matter of seconds anyway.

and what i meant with 3.5 is when the game freezes every few seconds, but it only happens during your turns. while you're not delaying on purpose, and while it may not even be your fault, you're still making the game insanely frustrating for your opponent, who has to wait several minutes during each of your turns, only to do his turn in a few seconds. this particular thing has actually happened to me several times.

I think i'll rephrase those two points in the opening post.

There are, simplified, 2 cases: either your enemy is ok with you winning, or he isn't.

For many of us who love games, being "ok with [our opponent] winning" is just a given. I play a lot of games, both online and IRL, and it had never occurred to me that someone over the age of, say, eight, would get so mad about losing that they would become truly upset if I say something as innocuous as "good game" -- which, to me, just means "thanks, I enjoyed playing with you, see you later". Sometimes you say it, sometimes you don't. I don't pay a lot of attention to it, either way. I didn't realize that it had a different meaning or connotation for some people, or that losing one of presumably thousands of online games could generate such rage.

So, I guess your thread has succeeded in opening my eyes, although... I'm not sure the problem is with the folks saying "gg"...

there are former progamers in sc2 (manely idra) who have lost their careers because they couldn't handle the frustration of losing, even after years of playing and experience. what's no big deal for some people can be one of the biggest barriers in life for others

since it's no big deal for you either way, waiting for your opponent to gg first if you won shouldn't be a problem... right?

[KingZog3]

Here's a thought: in cases where I want to play out my last turn fully even though I already have the win in my hand. I think playing out your last turn to its fullest is a good idea for game play.

I'm not the best person in the world at counting, so even if I enter the turn thinking I only need a single Province to win, maybe I need to pick up an extra Duchy or something because I miscounted. What would you say to the idea that it's a good habit to always get as many points as you can on the last turn, regardless of the score? With point counter on this doesn't apply, as well as other weird situations where there's only one Province left and no other way to score VP.

I was streaming this week and one guy I played didn't seem to like the fact that I played all my coin tokens on my last turn even though I didn't need them all. For me, that's just a good habit: "I'm ending the game this turn so I'll spend all my coin tokens;" on Goko, if this saves me from one miscalculation or misclick that would have cost me the game, then it's worth it to do it every time. So while it may come off as excessive, I think there are points to be made that it supports good game play habits. If someone insisted on never using the "Play Treasures" button I would not begrudge them for it, even if it made the game take longer.

If I'm wrong, please tell me how.

No, that's not what i meant at all. maybe I just did a poor job describing these two points, since they seem to be unclear. To clarify: what I mean with 3.0 is (in its most extreme form): waiting several minutes between every two decisions - as long as possible without being kicked for inactivity -, so that every turn takes 10+ minutes. this is something people will mostly do when they're behind, the goal is usually to drag the game out so long that your opponent eventually becomes too frustrated and resigns just so he doesn't have to waste his time.

if you didn't count and therefore want to make sure that you get as many points as possible, spending half a minute more  on your last turn is completely fine. that's certainly not dragging the game out for no reason, and spending coin tokens is just a matter of seconds anyway.

and what i meant with 3.5 is when the game freezes every few seconds, but it only happens during your turns. while you're not delaying on purpose, and while it may not even be your fault, you're still making the game insanely frustrating for your opponent, who has to wait several minutes during each of your turns, only to do his turn in a few seconds. this particular thing has actually happened to me several times.

I think i'll rephrase those two points in the opening post.

Then your point 3.0 is simply called slow playing (Or something close to that). It's known to be rude, and I never play someone twice who does that. 3.5 is something I understand, and while it's advisable to not play when crazy lag occurs, it's not rude in the same way and I don't think you should suggest to people to stop enjoying their game because of something out of their control.

[silverspawn]

Where did you say that?  I'm not finding it in the opening post.

I copy/pasted this out of the opening post... you'll find it. CRTL + F should do the job.

   What I did find is the following unqualified accusation:

There is nothing worse than writing gg first after you won a game, I hate it so much that I have to stop myself from writing something rude every time. Why? Because you are congratulating yourself for winning, and even more, you are asking your opponent to agree with you, by writing gg himself.

Now, obviously there is some hyperbole here; you do not really mean that this is worse than murder.  But you are stating that the intent of the gg is self congratulations.  That is not my intention when I write "good game".  I am also not asking my opponent to agree to anything.

now you are making things more complicated than they have to be. Yes, it was hyperbolic, no, I'm not stating that the intent of gg has to be self congratulations. I was describing how it comes across to people who have a simliar background than I have, only to pull back immediately afterwards and clarify that this doesn't have to be the intention within the subsequent sentence. And I chose to structure my post in this way to underline the fact that I dislike it a lot

The second is the most common and is a huge pet peeve of mine.  If I whined every time I had bad luck in a game of Dominion I'd have a terrible reputation..

That's my usual answer when people start complaining about luck. That's just so stupid, if you play dominion, you constantly lose because of bad luck. Arguably in over 1/3 of your games. Complaining about bad draws is just so 100% pointless.

[GokoIsGamesThatGoNowhere]

I used to habitually put "gg" at the end whether I won or lost.  However, one time, some highly-ranked chap got very upset with me and berated me after I had luckboxed and won in dominant fashion.  I don't remember the exact exchange but it was along the lines of "NO it was NOT a good game.  You were SO lucky.  My deck was MUCH better" and various other comments interspersed with all-CAPS emphasis.  Naturally, this disturbed me because, from my point of view, it was a GREAT game!  I kicked his ass!

So now, when I beatdown a highly-ranked player, so as not convey false modesty or condescension, I write "Thanks for the game.  You just got your shit pushed in."

That seems to be more straightforward and I think the regulars appreciate it.

[silverspawn]

I used to habitually put "gg" at the end whether I won or lost.  However, one time, some highly-ranked chap got very upset with me and berated me after I had luckboxed and won in dominant fashion.  I don't remember the exact exchange but it was along the lines of "NO it was NOT a good game.  You were SO lucky.  My deck was MUCH better" and various other comments interspersed with all-CAPS emphasis.  Naturally, this disturbed me because, from my point of view, it was a GREAT game!  I kicked his ass!

So now, when I beatdown a highly-ranked player, so as not convey false modesty or condescension, I write "Thanks for the game.  You just got your shit pushed in."

That seems to be more straightforward and I think the regulars appreciate it.

and this is why i never ever play with people who are not in a 500 radius around my ranking...

[GokoIsGamesThatGoNowhere]

Hmm, based on your reactions, I am wondering you were the highly-ranked regular who berated me in the chat box?  Do you remember that particular exchange after getting your shit pushed in?  If so, I must apologize!  I was not attempting to demean you with my post-win "gg"; it just a part of my victory ritual that includes putting on Queen's "We are the Champions" and taking a shot of whisky. 

User was temp banned for this post.

[GokoIsGamesThatGoNowhere]

I am habituated to always say "gg" at the end of every game, win or lose.  I acknowledge that it was a "good game", that is, not marred by disrespectful rude behavior.

Realizing that people, for whatever bizarre reason, take offense to this, I have started to say instead "thanks for the game".  It is totally illogical to me to impute imaginary derogatory motives to someone and then get mad at them for having those same imaginary motives.  But whatever.

Loving this discussion!  I can't believe people get so riled up by online games!

To me "thanks for the game" is waaaaay more condescending than "gg".   To me, the guy expecting a courtesy "gg", you are effectively saying "This was not a good game.  I kicked your ass.  However, in the interest of etiquette, I must say something.  So I thank you for sacrificing five minutes of your time to indulge in this mockery of a competition, a contest that was so tilted in my favor that I may as well have been playing a child, or a monkey.  Nevertheless, while I don't respect your abilities as a player, I do respect the fact that you did not ragequit as I pummeled you time and time again with my eight scrying pools."

[silverspawn]

Hmm, based on your reactions, I am wondering you were the highly-ranked regular who berated me in the chat box?  Do you remember that particular exchange after getting your shit pushed in?  If so, I must apologize!  I was not attempting to demean you with my post-win "gg"; it just a part of my victory ritual that includes putting on Queen's "We are the Champions" and taking a shot of whisky.

i just told you that i dont ever play with people who are ranked a lot lower or higher than me, so no it couldn't have been me. i also don't whine when people beat me with drawing luck. it happens constantly as does the opposite. thats just part of playing dominion, the game is high skill/high luck

[GokoIsGamesThatGoNowhere]

On isotropic for some reason I used to always own one particular player named "ddubois".  He was a lot better than me but through a combination of luck and unpredictability (aka not knowing WTF I was doing), I managed to beat him every single time.  I suppose it is the sadist in me, but I have to admit that I quite enjoyed his post-game rants about how I was such a luckbox and how it was simply unbelievable that he would draw his KC with no action time and time again, etc.  I would just agree with him and say things like "what is KC? " and that infuriated him even more!  I guess I never realized there was this sordid underworld of guys who took this so seriously.  I mean, I used to encounter this all the time in poker, but at least money was at stake there...

[Aidan Millow]

My opinions

On 3.5: If the game is lagging badly on your turn you shouldn't be obligated to resign unless you're already loosing substantially. You should probably apologise and you definitely shouldn't start a game if you expect to suffer lag like this but, given that games are rated (regardless of how ridiculous the ratings might be) you shouldn't be forced to resign a 50:50 game due to circumstances beyond your control (This is what the wording of your OP implies to me, if that's not the case you might want to change it).

On 6: The thing about saying gg is that people have greatly differing reactions to it. It makes me feel better after a game when my opponent says gg, regardless of the outcome; I assume this is the case for most people as well. Obviously some people are offended by this but I'm almost certain that they are in the minority and furthermore (and I apologise to anyone whom what I'm about to say offends) the people who assume that a winning "gg" is a gloat and get noticeably upset by this are people who I'd rather not play with anyway. So I choose to cater to the feelings of the majority rather than them.

[GendoIkari]

On isotropic for some reason I used to always own one particular player named "ddubois".  He was a lot better than me but through a combination of luck and unpredictability (aka not knowing WTF I was doing), I managed to beat him every single time.  I suppose it is the sadist in me, but I have to admit that I quite enjoyed his post-game rants about how I was such a luckbox and how it was simply unbelievable that he would draw his KC with no action time and time again, etc.  I would just agree with him and say things like "what is KC? " and that infuriated him even more!  I guess I never realized there was this sordid underworld of guys who took this so seriously.  I mean, I used to encounter this all the time in poker, but at least money was at stake there...

Sounds like Isotropic had some sort of decline of civility.... 

[dondon151]

Obvious troll is obvious.

I seriously don't understand the other side of the "gg" argument. "gg" has a very literal definition, and I'd think it inappropriate to use when the conditions don't apply. I don't buy the "but that's not what 'gg' means" argument.

[GokoIsGamesThatGoNowhere]

Obvious troll is obvious.

I seriously don't understand the other side of the "gg" argument. "gg" has a very literal definition, and I'd think it inappropriate to use when the conditions don't apply. I don't buy the "but that's not what 'gg' means" argument.

What?  "gg" is clearly just a courtesy way of saying "good playing with you".  It's like when you cross paths with someone and say "how's it going?"  and expect them to say "fine".  In truth, you don't give a shit how they are doing and it would be highly annoying if they started ranting about how bad their day has been, because you only made the gesture out of courtesy.  You could go with awkward silence or avoid eye contact and walk the other way, which is the online equivalent of just exiting the game without saying anything, but that would make you an anti-social retard.

[silverspawn]

My opinions

On 3.5: If the game is lagging badly on your turn you shouldn't be obligated to resign unless you're already loosing substantially. You should probably apologise and you definitely shouldn't start a game if you expect to suffer lag like this but, given that games are rated (regardless of how ridiculous the ratings might be) you shouldn't be forced to resign a 50:50 game due to circumstances beyond your control (This is what the wording of your OP implies to me, if that's not the case you might want to change it).

yea, that's what i meant. and as i said within the post, i expected people to disagree using about the same arguments you did. and these are arguments that i can't disproof, because it's a loss-loss situation, and all you can do is decide which loss matters less to you (playing a game with lag/losing a game because of server lags).

The reason I do think that continuing to play is wrong, despite the lags not being your fault, is that it's simply not efficient. If everyone always left games whenever heavy lags occur, personal ratings should stay relatively unchanged on average, beacause the lags should be spread equally. If everyone plays games to their end, the rating is also unaffected, but there will be lot of frustration which simply is not necssary. This is of course a philosophical arguement, not a practical one.

On 6: The thing about saying gg is that people have greatly differing reactions to it. It makes me feel better after a game when my opponent says gg, regardless of the outcome; I assume this is the case for most people as well. Obviously some people are offended by this but I'm almost certain that they are in the minority and furthermore (and I apologise to anyone whom what I'm about to say offends) the people who assume that a winning "gg" is a gloat and get noticeably upset by this are people who I'd rather not play with anyway. So I choose to cater to the feelings of the majority rather than them.

This is definitely the best argumentation I've yet heard for your side. I still disagree though, and I'd make the following point: while it may be true that most people like it if their opponents write gg, there can't be any disadvantage if you only write gg if the losing player does so first. People like you who want to see a gg from their opponent only have to write gg first, and will still get one. As long as there isn't anyone who, after he lost, needs his opponent to write gg first to feel good (which would make no sense whatsoever) this would be the ideal solutions for all sides.

[dondon151]

What?  "gg" is clearly just a courtesy way of saying "good playing with you".  It's like when you cross paths with someone and say "how's it going?"  and expect them to say "fine".  In truth, you don't give a shit how they are doing and it would be highly annoying if they started ranting about how bad their day has been, because you only made the gesture out of courtesy.  You could go with awkward silence or avoid eye contact and walk the other way, which is the online equivalent of just exiting the game without saying anything, but that would make you an anti-social retard.

First of all, I don't see how this example is any more valid than, say, if I went up to someone and told him "your face is ugly" and expect it not to be construed as, quite literally, his face being ugly (i.e., visually repulsive).

Secondly, there are a lot of possible responses other than "fine" to the mundane question of "how's it going?" that are more honest but not overly detailed. It could range anywhere from "great!" to "ehh, okay" to "terrible." There is no false dichotomy of replying with "fine" or being socially retarded.

Then there's this whole argument of "gg" being good manners. Look, if you really want to exhibit good manners, put in the effort to say something more thoughtful (just a little bit!), and maybe empathize with your opponent a little if you just crushed him instead of gloating like you've just snatched candy from a baby with Down syndrome.

[flies]

i think we should just get goko to play the barney song at the end of every game.

[Aidan Millow]

On 6: The thing about saying gg is that people have greatly differing reactions to it. It makes me feel better after a game when my opponent says gg, regardless of the outcome; I assume this is the case for most people as well. Obviously some people are offended by this but I'm almost certain that they are in the minority and furthermore (and I apologise to anyone whom what I'm about to say offends) the people who assume that a winning "gg" is a gloat and get noticeably upset by this are people who I'd rather not play with anyway. So I choose to cater to the feelings of the majority rather than them.

This is definitely the best argumentation I've yet heard for your side. I still disagree though, and I'd make the following point: while it may be true that most people like it if their opponents write gg, there can't be any disadvantage if you only write gg if the losing player does so first. People like you who want to see a gg from their opponent only have to write gg first, and will still get one. As long as there isn't anyone who, after he lost, needs his opponent to write gg first to feel good (which would make no sense whatsoever) this would be the ideal solutions for all sides.

People who would appreciate a gg if it was given don't necessarily 'want' it enough to ask for it. Given that people tend to quit after a couple of seconds one can't really wait if one actually wants to say it.

Then there's this whole argument of "gg" being good manners. Look, if you really want to exhibit good manners, put in the effort to say something more thoughtful (just a little bit!), and maybe empathize with your opponent a little if you just crushed him instead of gloating like you've just snatched candy from a baby with Down syndrome.

Simple courtesies are typically something that requires next to no effort (like saying "fine" is response to "how's it going?") it is obviously nicer to say more but it's quite a lot more effort (again, people quit after a couple of seconds). Less than saying "fine" (ie saying nothing or responding with a grunt) is usually considered rude. Obviously this is different to the first "gg" but I feel that it's still nicer to put in the minimal effort to say "gg" than it is to say nothing.

[silverspawn]

People who would appreciate a gg if it was given don't necessarily 'want' it enough to ask for it. Given that people tend to quit after a couple of seconds one can't really wait if one actually wants to say it.

ok this i don't buy, if you care about getting a gg you don't quit after a few seconds, and if you do, you don't care.

[Aidan Millow]

People who would appreciate a gg if it was given don't necessarily 'want' it enough to ask for it. Given that people tend to quit after a couple of seconds one can't really wait if one actually wants to say it.

ok this i don't buy, if you care about getting a gg you don't quit after a few seconds, and if you do, you don't care.

I'm not actually talking about 'caring.' I'm talking about getting a miniscule warmth inside you and moving on. I only wait a couple of seconds between saying gg and quitting myself.

[Jimmmmm]

I generally say "well done" if I lose and "thanks for the game" if I win. I will occasionally "gg". I may be alone in this, but I generally consider it bad taste to resign when the game is very close to the end anyway.

[Aidan Millow]

Also, there's another item of potential 'bad form' that could be mentioned here.

7: Complaining about luck
Honestly I occasionally do this myself and then usually apologise as I'm sure that it is bad form. It does get frustrating when you lose because of luck but dominion is a game where this happens.

[WanderingWinder]

Obvious troll is obvious.

QFT

[SCSN]

Either way, I think it's wrong to expect your enemy to be okay with you winning, irrespective of how you played, since you can't know how hard he takes the loss. If you really need it, you can silently think gg to yourself.

Of course I expect my opponent to be okay with me winning. If he can't handle a loss he shouldn't be playing.

Why? Because you are congratulating yourself for winning, and even more, you are asking your enemy to agree with you, by writing gg himself.

First and foremost, my opponent is never my enemy. I have come across opponents who are really unpleasant to play with, but I'll just blacklist them and never give them a second thought. Framing your opponent as an enemy and a game as a fight you have to win might well be the cause of this whole antagonistic under-current in your post.

And by saying "gg" I'm not congratulating myself, I'm just shaking your hand out of politeness.

What I mostly do is avoid this situation by leaving early (I tend to resign games >90% when I'm losing)

I think leaving early without saying anything, provided that you have the ability to chat and are not in some sort of multi-game session where it's understood that you meet again right away, is pretty bad, a bit like suddenly turning around and walking away in the middle of a conversation.

I think the problem you are having is that you lack different perspectives. you apparently never lose self-control due to losses - which itself is certainly a good thing -, and you instinctivally expect your opponent to be fine with losing also. However, not everyone will stay as collected as you. I have a history of destroying my headset (which by the way was pretty expensive) twice, and my chair once due to anger after losing sc2 matches. Playing as much as I did has helped a lot to improve my self control, to the point where I am now. But on the way I have learned that you if your opponent is mad after losing, just leave him alone. Expecting anything from him in this moment is short sided, arrogant and very insensitive.

I've played poker professionally for a number of years, during which I've seen more brands and varieties of this sort of behaviour—both in myself and in others—than you can probably imagine. One can see a grown man completely lose his mind when the river brings the Queen rather than the Ace of spades only so many times before you realize how utterly ridiculous it is. I've banged my fist on the table in response to a card I did not like more than once, but decided at some point to stop tolerating this sort of nonsense from myself and instead mock it with playful ridicule, thereby transforming the frustration into laughter, and, over time, gradually reducing its incidence.

Yet where I can definitely sympathize with frustration after losing (especially after losing multiple games in a row), being offended by a simple social nicety that you know is expressed in good faith is so completely incomprehensible to me that I can't help but consider it a maladjustment. If you really can't handle a simple "gg" I recommend as much exposure therapy as possible until it's no longer a big deal to you. I mean, presumably at some point in your life you took the monstrous leap of courage to venture outside of your safe, familiar house, despite the risk of a sudden breeze ruffling your exposed skin in a somewhat unpleasant manner. And, presumably, you derived a number of great, unanticipated benefits from this daring adventure—and if not, at least your skin grew slightly thicker.

[dondon151]

Also, there's another item of potential 'bad form' that could be mentioned here.

7: Complaining about luck
Honestly I occasionally do this myself and then usually apologise as I'm sure that it is bad form. It does get frustrating when you lose because of luck but dominion is a game where this happens.

I think it's fine to complain about luck when it's justified and when it's kind of tongue in cheek. It's certainly possible to point out bad luck without strongly complaining about it.

Yet where I can definitely sympathize with frustration after losing (especially after losing multiple games in a row), being offended by a simple social nicety that you know is expressed in good faith is so completely incomprehensible to me that I can't help but consider it a maladjustment. If you really can't handle a simple "gg" I recommend as much exposure therapy as possible until it's no longer a big deal to you.

The problem here is that some people actually can't handle it for whatever psychological reason. Telling someone to deal with a parting remark is in some cases almost like telling someone to stop being depressed.

What bothers me about the whole "gg" issue isn't the perception that the victor is gloating, but the application of the adjective "good" to games that could not be considered as such.

[() | (_) ^/]

gg

[KingZog3]

gg

How could you... after all this discussion. I didn't say gg first.

[Kirian]

gg

How could you... after all this discussion. I didn't say gg first.

Obviously, he lost the discussion.

[Kirian]

Obvious troll is obvious.

QFT

There are at least two trolls in the thread.  Much different styles though.

Edit: also I suppose this depends on your definition of troll.

[florrat]

There are at least two trolls in the thread.  Much different styles though.

Edit: also I suppose this depends on your definition of troll.

That sounds like a riddle! What other information do we get?

[Warfreak2]

Do not ask for whom the bell trolls.

[LuciferousPeridot]

This discussion has confused me!

 As nearly all players use 'gg' after each game, regardless of actual game  quality, I started using it in the 'thanks for the game' sense which I assumed others were as well. I'm horrified that people would think I am mocking them on the rare occasions I win and 'gg'.

[silverspawn]

Either way, I think it's wrong to expect your enemy to be okay with you winning, irrespective of how you played, since you can't know how hard he takes the loss. If you really need it, you can silently think gg to yourself.

Of course I expect my opponent to be okay with me winning. If he can't handle a loss he shouldn't be playing.

Why? Because you are congratulating yourself for winning, and even more, you are asking your enemy to agree with you, by writing gg himself.

First and foremost, my opponent is never my enemy. I have come across opponents who are really unpleasant to play with, but I'll just blacklist them and never give them a second thought. Framing your opponent as an enemy and a game as a fight you have to win might well be the cause of this whole antagonistic under-current in your post.

And by saying "gg" I'm not congratulating myself, I'm just shaking your hand out of politeness.

What I mostly do is avoid this situation by leaving early (I tend to resign games >90% when I'm losing)

I think leaving early without saying anything, provided that you have the ability to chat and are not in some sort of multi-game session where it's understood that you meet again right away, is pretty bad, a bit like suddenly turning around and walking away in the middle of a conversation.

I think the problem you are having is that you lack different perspectives. you apparently never lose self-control due to losses - which itself is certainly a good thing -, and you instinctivally expect your opponent to be fine with losing also. However, not everyone will stay as collected as you. I have a history of destroying my headset (which by the way was pretty expensive) twice, and my chair once due to anger after losing sc2 matches. Playing as much as I did has helped a lot to improve my self control, to the point where I am now. But on the way I have learned that you if your opponent is mad after losing, just leave him alone. Expecting anything from him in this moment is short sided, arrogant and very insensitive.

I've played poker professionally for a number of years, during which I've seen more brands and varieties of this sort of behaviour—both in myself and in others—than you can probably imagine. One can see a grown man completely lose his mind when the river brings the Queen rather than the Ace of spades only so many times before you realize how utterly ridiculous it is. I've banged my fist on the table in response to a card I did not like more than once, but decided at some point to stop tolerating this sort of nonsense from myself and instead mock it with playful ridicule, thereby transforming the frustration into laughter, and, over time, gradually reducing its incidence.

Yet where I can definitely sympathize with frustration after losing (especially after losing multiple games in a row), being offended by a simple social nicety that you know is expressed in good faith is so completely incomprehensible to me that I can't help but consider it a maladjustment. If you really can't handle a simple "gg" I recommend as much exposure therapy as possible until it's no longer a big deal to you. I mean, presumably at some point in your life you took the monstrous leap of courage to venture outside of your safe, familiar house, despite the risk of a sudden breeze ruffling your exposed skin in a somewhat unpleasant manner. And, presumably, you derived a number of great, unanticipated benefits from this daring adventure—and if not, at least your skin grew slightly thicker.

In a way, you are a perfect representation of literally everything that I've been trying to fight and overcome in the past years considering manners in gaming, even conserning structure and ways of argumentation. The fact that you are not lacking context makes it 100 times more despicable than I originally thought. Not only are you arrogant enough to look down on others due to superior experience and self control, despite having seen countless examples of people who have a way harder time keeping their emotions in check, you are even trying to have your posts in this very thread be recognized as something superior to mine, by having better grammar, be it deliberately or unconsciously.

Thus, I'm going to love and tolerate you even more <3 Everyone can be reformed.

    Also, there's another item of potential 'bad form' that could be mentioned here.

7: Complaining about luck
Honestly I occasionally do this myself and then usually apologise as I'm sure that it is bad form. It does get frustrating when you lose because of luck but dominion is a game where this happens.

I think it's fine to complain about luck when it's justified and when it's kind of tongue in cheek. It's certainly possible to point out bad luck without strongly complaining about it.

well, as i said earlier, people do this a lot and i think it's pretty stupid, but i never had a real problem with it, mainly because if people do complain about luck, it's always after they lost, and then I'm usually in really good mood and just answer somehing like "dude if i had gotten 1 gokoin for every time I lost a game because of bad luck, I could afford all promos by now"

I'll add it to the opening post anyway. 'cus why not.

[ehunt]

Wait youre not supposed to write gg after winning now?? Man goko changed everything

[Polk5440]

It may be that saying gg first when you win in other games is meant to be an insult. Those communities are unusual. It is not true in Dominion and it is not true in the English language in general.

gg literally means it was a "good game." That's what you would type if someone asks you, "What does gg mean?"

Not literally it is a handshake or a polite "thanks for playing a game with me." Communities where the norm turns the literal phrase into its opposite need to explain themselves, not the majority of ones that allow for games to be good whether you win or lose. Starcraft has gotten silly with this. gg evolved to mean "I resign" followed by an actual resignation. Makes sense for a real time strategy. Somwhow that morphed into it's only polite meaning, so a winner can't gg without mockingly suggest he's saying "I resign. HAHA ACTUALLY I WON!!" It's silly and I won't give in to establishing that norm anywhere else. In fact, I can't think of another community (gaming or not) where a short, sportsman-like compliment or thank you from the winner to the loser is viewed an insult. 

OP is arguing not for understanding but for a reversal of a very reasonable community norm in a non-Starcraft community. Sorry, that's not going to happen.

[Eevee]

All in all, I think people care way too much.

Most of the times, the "bad manners" are not intentional. If they are, your opponent is likely upset and will feel bad about it later when he cools off. If not, your opponent is a jerk, and why should you care?

In any case, you don't really gain anything from taking offense.

[SCSN]

In a way, you are a perfect representation of literally everything that I've been trying to fight and overcome in the past years considering manners in gaming

In the war of emotions only two parties are ever involved: you and yourself. The only way to win this battle is to stop fighting. Once you truly realize this and come to peace with yourself, you will cease to feel the need to reform others in order to accommodate your own deficiencies.

The fact that you are not lacking context makes it 100 times more despicable than I originally thought.

Be honest with yourself: how did you feel while writing this sentence? You may think you're slinging pointed arrows at me (de-spic-a-ble), but in reality they are boomerangs that leave me unperturbed and only intensify your own anger.

Not only are you arrogant enough to look down on others due to superior experience and self control

It's easy to misconstrue as arrogance my refusal to hand out yet another warm blanket to confirm someone in his self-pity, but that's just not what people need. Emotional management is a skill like any other, and asking for sympathy for or whining about lacking it or having less of a natural proclivity towards it than some others isn't going to make you any better.

despite having seen countless examples of people who have a way harder time keeping their emotions in check

Trying to keep your emotions in check is the very core of the problem, as it presupposes that (part of) your emotions are bad, undesirable and worth fighting against. The ultimate key to emotional management is really a kind of non-management: to embrace your feelings as they arise, fully and unconditionally. By relinquishing resistance their power dissipates, and whatever part of it remains will then align itself with your intentions. Practicing it is certainly not easy (I'm probably closer in skill to you than to a Buddhist monk), but what that's really worth learning ever is?

A book that I really would love to have been published years earlier but that I nevertheless found useful is The Mental Game of Poker.

I have more to say about the topic and if you're truly interested in learning rather than just perpetuating an unproductive victim-mentality, I'm happy to talk about it via pm.

you are even trying to have your posts in this very thread be recognized as something superior to mine, by having better grammar, be it deliberately or unconsciously.

Man that would feel SO great to receive that kind of recognition, like, I'd be calling up my English high-school teacher right away to tell him how I won this big grammar battle of the non-natives on some internet forum, that'd be even better than beating Germany in the team WC finals

Thus, I'm going to love and tolerate you even more <3 Everyone can be reformed.

Cool, let's make some babies!

[Kirian]

There are at least two trolls in the thread.  Much different styles though.

Edit: also I suppose this depends on your definition of troll.

That sounds like a riddle! What other information do we get?

Ill Gotten Gains, and Venture.

Thus clues will only make sense to someone who already knows how they make sense, so gl hf with that.

[dondon151]

All in all, I think people care way too much.

Most of the times, the "bad manners" are not intentional. If they are, your opponent is likely upset and will feel bad about it later when he cools off. If not, your opponent is a jerk, and why should you care?

In any case, you don't really gain anything from taking offense.

Bad manners being unintentional doesn't excuse them from being bad.

[Slyfox]

Did anyone else playing little-league baseball (or similar sports) in which after the game the two teams lined up and then walked by each player saying "good game" to each as you sort of hand slapped or hand shake each player on the other team?  To me, that is what saying "gg" is.  A sort of ritualistic hand shake after the game is over.

[ehunt]

Did anyone else playing little-league baseball (or similar sports) in which after the game the two teams lined up and then walked by each player saying "good game" to each as you sort of hand slapped or hand shake each player on the other team?  To me, that is what saying "gg" is.  A sort of ritualistic hand shake after the game is over.

Can confirm this is done in adult kickball leagues

[WanderingWinder]

Did anyone else playing little-league baseball (or similar sports) in which after the game the two teams lined up and then walked by each player saying "good game" to each as you sort of hand slapped or hand shake each player on the other team?  To me, that is what saying "gg" is.  A sort of ritualistic hand shake after the game is over.

Can confirm this is done in adult kickball leagues

I'm impressed (and slightly jealous) that you can confirm that there are adult kickball leagues where you are...

[Ozle]

In England football league managers always shake hands after a game, unless there has been something particularily controversial going on

[sudgy]

Did anyone else playing little-league baseball (or similar sports) in which after the game the two teams lined up and then walked by each player saying "good game" to each as you sort of hand slapped or hand shake each player on the other team?  To me, that is what saying "gg" is.  A sort of ritualistic hand shake after the game is over.

Can confirm this is done in adult kickball leagues

I'm impressed (and slightly jealous) that you can confirm that there are adult kickball leagues where you are...

Oh, all of us in the mafia community can definitely confirm it.

[cactus]

There are at least two trolls in the thread.  Much different styles though.

Edit: also I suppose this depends on your definition of troll.

That sounds like a riddle! What other information do we get?

Ill Gotten Gains, and Venture.

Thus clues will only make sense to someone who already knows how they make sense, so gl hf with that.

Venture? But I haven't even started trolling this thread yet.

[dondon151]

Did anyone else playing little-league baseball (or similar sports) in which after the game the two teams lined up and then walked by each player saying "good game" to each as you sort of hand slapped or hand shake each player on the other team?  To me, that is what saying "gg" is.  A sort of ritualistic hand shake after the game is over.

I did. I never really understood that. It all seemed too contrived and artificial.

[markusin]

Did anyone else playing little-league baseball (or similar sports) in which after the game the two teams lined up and then walked by each player saying "good game" to each as you sort of hand slapped or hand shake each player on the other team?  To me, that is what saying "gg" is.  A sort of ritualistic hand shake after the game is over.

They also do that in Soccer/Football. And Hockey. Not sure about American Football.

[Kirian]

Did anyone else playing little-league baseball (or similar sports) in which after the game the two teams lined up and then walked by each player saying "good game" to each as you sort of hand slapped or hand shake each player on the other team?  To me, that is what saying "gg" is.  A sort of ritualistic hand shake after the game is over.

They also do that in Soccer/Football. And Hockey. Not sure about American Football.

In American football, the winning team eats the losing team.

[SirPeebles]

(Long Post)

I just want to say that I had a difficult experience today (not related to Dominion or games), and found your advice here helpful.

[ftl]

Did anyone else playing little-league baseball (or similar sports) in which after the game the two teams lined up and then walked by each player saying "good game" to each as you sort of hand slapped or hand shake each player on the other team?  To me, that is what saying "gg" is.  A sort of ritualistic hand shake after the game is over.

They also do that in Soccer/Football. And Hockey. Not sure about American Football.

And tennis. And not just little league tennis.

[cactus]

Tennis. Don't talk to me about bloody tennis. I live in Melbourne. I just can't get away from people talking tennis at this time of year. No, I don't care about Serena Bloody Williams.

No I won't shake you hand.

[elahrairah13]

I just said "gg, thanks for the game" because of this thread.

Best of both worlds?  Or worst of both worlds?

Automatch proposed a second game between the other player and I and he rejected it... maybe it was my breath.

[flies]

Yet where I can definitely sympathize with frustration after losing (especially after losing multiple games in a row), being offended by a simple social nicety that you know is expressed in good faith is so completely incomprehensible to me that I can't help but consider it a maladjustment. If you really can't handle a simple "gg" I recommend as much exposure therapy as possible until it's no longer a big deal to you.

The problem here is that some people actually can't handle it for whatever psychological reason. Telling someone to deal with a parting remark is in some cases almost like telling someone to stop being depressed.

If you're saying that there are people in this thread who "can't handle" "gg" in the sense of mental illness, I disagree.  There are people here who find it rude and don't like it, which is hardly the same thing.  One does not simply cater to people who find your behavior unpleasant.

[dondon151]

If you're saying that there are people in this thread who "can't handle" "gg" in the sense of mental illness, I disagree.  There are people here who find it rude and don't like it, which is hardly the same thing.  One does not simply cater to people who find your behavior unpleasant.

Care to support your assertion? Not a single person, ever has a mental pathology that causes him to behave with unsportsmanlike conduct?

[Gherald]

I recently had someone say 'gg' on their last turn, when I was clearly going to win on the next turn.  And then... they didn't end their turn.  They just sat there for a minute and then said 'I'm not doing anything until you say "gg"'

I thought, what the hell?  I haven't typed "gg" to anyone since I was like 13 and playing Counterstrike, not about to begin now.

So anyway, I informed him of this and he had the good sense to say "sorry" and move on.

[Ozle]

A wise man once said "A gg by either enforcement or habit conveys nothing."

(Naah only joking, I said it...)

[yed]

The only think I don't like is when someone says gg and lefts and I can not say gg to him as well.

[flies]

If you're saying that there are people in this thread who "can't handle" "gg" in the sense of mental illness, I disagree.  There are people here who find it rude and don't like it, which is hardly the same thing.  One does not simply cater to people who find your behavior unpleasant.

Care to support your assertion? Not a single person, ever has a mental pathology that causes him to behave with unsportsmanlike conduct?

So I'm re-reading SCSN's post with a slightly different eye.  He writes about people who "can't handle it" and are "maladjusted" - I picked the former phrase out of your post which was probably a bit unfair of me.  These terms do sometimes describe mental illness, but I think he's just referring to "ordinary distress" rather than mental illness. 

I basically agree with his sentiment that if you're upset at me for trying to be polite (as in this case, by saying "gg"), well, I can't really be expected to know that in advance or avoid the politeness in general.*  Certainly no one in this thread looks ill to my untrained eye, and while I've seen some childish behavior on Goko (and Iso), but this is certainly not the kind of thing that warrants special treatment. 

Put another way, I don't see why a relatively rare preference against "gg" counts more than a more common preference for it.  Harm is done to the group as whole when simple politeness is made testy, but that harm may be outweighed by disproportionate harm done to the rarer dislikers.  I don't see evidence of this.

There are many cases where one caters to the person who finds your behavior unpleasant or one is an asshole.  For example, if you're writing a blog post, there are certain topics where it is appropriate to put "trigger warning" because a large fraction of people is going to be especially sensitive and insensitivity to their needs is gross negligence.  A legitimate disagreement about what's appropriate doesn't seem to one of those cases.

*Intention of politeness is not a magic balm that excuses any behavior, but in this case, the "gg" convention seems like a generally positive thing.  I could be swayed from this position, fwiw, but arguments I have seen have not been convincing.

[eHalcyon]

you are even trying to have your posts in this very thread be recognized as something superior to mine, by having better grammar, be it deliberately or unconsciously.

Uhh, what?  Are you seriously complaining that someone used proper grammar?  Why in the world would you take that as something malicious?  Should people deliberately use poor grammar in order to appear more humble?



My opinion is that people should simply do what they are comfortable with (saying or not saying gg) and try to give others the benefit of the doubt.  Other player wins and says gg first?  He's probably just doing the typical post-game handshake.  Don't make it out to be sarcastic, gloating or mocking if nothing else suggests it.

[Kirian]

If you're saying that there are people in this thread who "can't handle" "gg" in the sense of mental illness, I disagree.  There are people here who find it rude and don't like it, which is hardly the same thing.  One does not simply cater to people who find your behavior unpleasant.

Care to support your assertion? Not a single person, ever has a mental pathology that causes him to behave with unsportsmanlike conduct?

While I agree that there may well be people whose mental illness prevents them from fully accepting relatively standard politeness, I don't know that it's necessary to treat everyone as if they were mentally ill merely to placate a few people.  There are almost certainly people with various forms of OCD who will recoil from an offered handshake; does this mean I should stop offering handshakes in situations that would normally call for one?  No, no it doesn't.

[dondon151]

Again, that's... rather tangential. SCSN's prescription for people who can't handle end-of-game behavior is to subject themselves to unpleasant situations until they can handle it. I was merely pointing out that this might range from useless to utterly counterproductive in many cases.

[SCSN]

you are even trying to have your posts in this very thread be recognized as something superior to mine, by having better grammar, be it deliberately or unconsciously.

Uhh, what?  Are you seriously complaining that someone used proper grammar?  Why in the world would you take that as something malicious?  Should people deliberately use poor grammar in order to appear more humble?

Lacking spaces between words, having inappropriate capitalization and missing an essential apostrophe, my username is the zenith of humility.

[flies]

dude, i'm so much more humble than you, don't even start.

[Qvist]

dude, i'm so much more humble than you, don't even start.

Sure and I'm without doubt the most humble person in the world.

Anyway, while I see the point of the OP I just wanted to say "It's the internet. Bad manner happens everywhere. Saying gg in a 'wrong' occasion isn't the end of the world. Get over it." But that's just my opinion. As long as my opponent swears and give me bad nick names, I don't feel offended.

[sudgy]

dude, i'm so much more humble than you, don't even start.

This reminds me of a song called "Smug", and at a part it says, "I'm good!  I'm humble!  I'm better than you!"

[flies]

I believe it was AJD who said "Maybe I'm arrogant, but it's my only flaw."  Am I remembering that right, AJD?  (You should know that I've been using that one for years.)

[silverspawn]

dude, i'm so much more humble than you, don't even start.

Sure and I'm without doubt the most humble person in the world.

Anyway, while I see the point of the OP I just wanted to say "It's the internet. Bad manner happens everywhere. Saying gg in a 'wrong' occasion isn't the end of the world. Get over it." But that's just my opinion. As long as my opponent swears and give me bad nick names, I don't feel offended.

There is nothing to get over. I didn't wirte "people are so mean they are writing offensive gg's i can't handle it!!" in my opening post, I explicitly stated that I don't assume any bad intentions when someone does it. I even confirmed that I can't objectively prove that it's bm. I don't start raging when it happens, I don't even put people on my black list because of it. All I do is either leave the game as fast as I can or ask them to stop doing it in the future, and if they don't... well, then they don't. Humans are rude and intollerant by nature, just read through this thread.

[KingZog3]

dude, i'm so much more humble than you, don't even start.

Sure and I'm without doubt the most humble person in the world.

Anyway, while I see the point of the OP I just wanted to say "It's the internet. Bad manner happens everywhere. Saying gg in a 'wrong' occasion isn't the end of the world. Get over it." But that's just my opinion. As long as my opponent swears and give me bad nick names, I don't feel offended.

There is nothing to get over. I didn't wirte "people are so mean they are writing offensive gg's i can't handle it!!" in my opening post, I explicitly stated that I don't assume any bad intentions when someone does it. I even confirmed that I can't objectively prove that it's bm. I don't start raging when it happens, I don't even put people on my black list because of it. All I do is either leave the game as fast as I can or ask them to stop doing it in the future, and if they don't... well, then they don't. Humans are rude and intollerant by nature, just read through this thread.

Don't use bm for mad manners. I keep reading bowl movement.

Also, no one was really rude here, or intolerant. Maybe they got annoyed when you told them their friendly gesture is actually rude, but other than that it's pretty friendly, even people making jokes. At leas that's how I perceive it. I don't assume people are rude unless there is evidence for it.

[florrat]

Don't use bm for mad manners. I keep reading bowl movement.

I read "Big Money" every single time, and then I'm confused because that doesn't fit the sentence.

And I agree, reading through this thread was not enough for me to conclude that humans are rude and intolerant by nature. But that might be just me.

[Awaclus]

I read Black Market.

[flies]

Also, no one was really rude here, or intolerant. Maybe they got annoyed when you told them their friendly gesture is actually rude, but other than that it's pretty friendly, even people making jokes.

I didn't observe anything I considered rude.

At leas that's how I perceive it. I don't assume people are rude unless there is evidence for it.

I take it that silverspawn saw "evidence" of rudeness insofar as he saw rudeness.  Apparently we disagree about what is rude.

All I do is either leave the game as fast as I can or ask them to stop doing it in the future, and if they don't... well, then they don't. Humans are rude and intollerant by nature, just read through this thread.

I'm imagining what goes through the head of someone who doesn't stop saying 'gg' first after winning when you ask them to.  On the one hand, it's a pretty small favor to ask.  On the other, outside of a series with you, it's probably hard for most people to remember to make an exception to their auto-gg habit when playing with you.  I'll try and remember, but I think it's equally reasonable of me to ask you to permit me to just say "gg" after a game regardless of the outcome as to me, the "gg" is meant as and feels like a simple gesture of thanks and respect.

[Ozle]

Silverspawn told me off for trolling Eevee on Goko the other day   *sad face*

If I can't troll Eevee, whats the point in Goko at all!

[sudgy]

Silverspawn told me off for trolling Eevee on Goko the other day   *sad face*

If I can't troll Eevee, whats the point in Goko at all!

Wouldn't you rather have a or  instead of *sad face*?

[Ozle]

Silverspawn told me off for trolling Eevee on Goko the other day   *sad face*

If I can't troll Eevee, whats the point in Goko at all!

Wouldn't you rather have a or  instead of *sad face*?

Nope, never use smilies. As I'm not 12

[SirPeebles]

Silverspawn told me off for trolling Eevee on Goko the other day   *sad face*

If I can't troll Eevee, whats the point in Goko at all!

Wouldn't you rather have a or  instead of *sad face*?

Nope, never use smilies. As I'm not 12

[GokoIsGamesThatGoNowhere]

I didn't observe anything I considered rude.

I assume he was referring to my jocular posts about how I like to taunt those who take Goko Dominion so seriously?  I'm not sure but I was temp banned for this so it must have been more offensive than I thought... my apologies to you all!

I find it greatly concerning that there are people out there whose opinion of human behavior is so low that the simple gesture of a post-win "gg" is taken to be condescending and even inflammatory.  Ironically, I find their response to this-- to try to leave as quickly as possible after a loss so as to avoid the unthinkable insult that is the "gg"-- to be considerably more rude, because half the time I want to discuss the game, win or loss.  I've played games where the loser has exited almost before I saw the game-over screen and I'm thinking, "WTF, is this guy some kind of Dominion robot who is in such a rush to get to the next game (which takes 10m on GOKO's lobby anyway) that he can't get out of my presence fast enough?" 

Imagine if this were the behavior for the board-game version.  Clearly there would have to be a house rule of no "good game" after playing because that could cause a fist fight from the losing party.  So the choice is awkward silence or bolt out the door as quickly as possible.  Good thing we have the Internet so we don't have to deal with these kinds of difficult etiquette dilemmas.

[GokoIsGamesThatGoNowhere]

I recently had someone say 'gg' on their last turn, when I was clearly going to win on the next turn.  And then... they didn't end their turn.  They just sat there for a minute and then said 'I'm not doing anything until you say "gg"'

I thought, what the hell?  I haven't typed "gg" to anyone since I was like 13 and playing Counterstrike, not about to begin now.

So anyway, I informed him of this and he had the good sense to say "sorry" and move on.

I played you a couple of weeks ago and you were losing, but instead of resign you just closed your browser (I guess?) and I had to wait for five minutes to get the win.  I thought that was kind of lame.  Although I guess  it would have been more lame if you had said "gg" and then closed your browser.

[Awaclus]

Ironically, I find their response to this-- to try to leave as quickly as possible after a loss so as to avoid the unthinkable insult that is the "gg"--

That is as rude as saying gg first. My response to this is to try to say gg as quickly as possible so that when my opponent says it, it will no longer be offensive.

[GokoIsGamesThatGoNowhere]

That is as rude as saying gg first. My response to this is to try to say gg as quickly as possible so that when my opponent says it, it will no longer be offensive.

I am going to try a new approach, now that I have been enlightened to the fact that "gg" is actually an insult: the instant the game ends (and I am the loser), I will type "I'm not going to give you the satisfaction" and then leave. 

Of course if I win, I'll just type "gg".

[KingZog3]

Also, no one was really rude here, or intolerant. Maybe they got annoyed when you told them their friendly gesture is actually rude, but other than that it's pretty friendly, even people making jokes.

I didn't observe anything I considered rude.

At leas that's how I perceive it. I don't assume people are rude unless there is evidence for it.

I take it that silverspawn saw "evidence" of rudeness insofar as he saw rudeness.  Apparently we disagree about what is rude.

I didn't think anyone was rude. My sentence says so, or least that's what I meant. Silverspawn was saying how people are intolerant of him and his opinions, so clearly he thought people were being rude, where I have not noticed anything but discussion and jokes.

And do you and I disagree on what is rude? Or you and Silverspawn disagree?

[flies]

And do you and I disagree on what is rude? Or you and Silverspawn disagree?

you were saying that you shouldn't assume people are rude without evidence, but the disagreement is about what constitutes evidence of rudeness, not whether evidence is needed.  a very minor qualification, to be sure.  (I am super literal; my wife will probably strangle me in my sleep one of these days.)

I'm with you as far as what's rude and what isn't.

[Twistedarcher]

I always considered saying "good game" a polite remark, and I say it after every game. I don't use it specifically to mean "That was a good, even, well-played, not one-sided game," I use it as "Thanks for playing a game of Dominion with me!"

I will always use it, even if it wasn't a good game. Just like I will always tell someone after I meet them that it was a pleasure to meet them, even if it wasn't actually a pleasure. It's just something that people say after a game with another player, and this thread has made me so surprised that such an ubiquitous phrase on the internet is viewed so negatively by a significant amount of people.

[KingZog3]

I always considered saying "good game" a polite remark, and I say it after every game. I don't use it specifically to mean "That was a good, even, well-played, not one-sided game," I use it as "Thanks for playing a game of Dominion with me!"

I will always use it, even if it wasn't a good game. Just like I will always tell someone after I meet them that it was a pleasure to meet them, even if it wasn't actually a pleasure. It's just something that people say after a game with another player, and this thread has made me so surprised that such an ubiquitous phrase on the internet is viewed so negatively by a significant amount of people.

It comes from certain other multiplayer games where there are a lot of people who use it negatively. This is one of a few reasons I generally stick to single player games when it comes to video games.

[ashersky]

I always considered saying "good game" a polite remark, and I say it after every game. I don't use it specifically to mean "That was a good, even, well-played, not one-sided game," I use it as "Thanks for playing a game of Dominion with me!"

I will always use it, even if it wasn't a good game. Just like I will always tell someone after I meet them that it was a pleasure to meet them, even if it wasn't actually a pleasure. It's just something that people say after a game with another player, and this thread has made me so surprised that such an ubiquitous phrase on the internet is viewed so negatively by a significant amount of people.

It comes from certain other multiplayer games where there are a lot of people who use it negatively. This is one of a few reasons I generally stick to single player games when it comes to video games.

It's better with "noob" after it, if I recall correctly.

[Ozle]

I always considered saying "good game" a polite remark, and I say it after every game. I don't use it specifically to mean "That was a good, even, well-played, not one-sided game," I use it as "Thanks for playing a game of Dominion with me!"

I will always use it, even if it wasn't a good game. Just like I will always tell someone after I meet them that it was a pleasure to meet them, even if it wasn't actually a pleasure. It's just something that people say after a game with another player, and this thread has made me so surprised that such an ubiquitous phrase on the internet is viewed so negatively by a significant amount of people.

It comes from certain other multiplayer games where there are a lot of people who use it negatively. This is one of a few reasons I generally stick to single player games when it comes to video games.

It's better with "noob" after it, if I recall correctly.

Everything is better with noob after it, noob

[KingZog3]

I always considered saying "good game" a polite remark, and I say it after every game. I don't use it specifically to mean "That was a good, even, well-played, not one-sided game," I use it as "Thanks for playing a game of Dominion with me!"

I will always use it, even if it wasn't a good game. Just like I will always tell someone after I meet them that it was a pleasure to meet them, even if it wasn't actually a pleasure. It's just something that people say after a game with another player, and this thread has made me so surprised that such an ubiquitous phrase on the internet is viewed so negatively by a significant amount of people.

It comes from certain other multiplayer games where there are a lot of people who use it negatively. This is one of a few reasons I generally stick to single player games when it comes to video games.

It's better with "noob" after it, if I recall correctly.

Everything is better with noob after it, noob

Shut up noob. We all know you're a haxor.

[Awaclus]

8. Having no #vpoff in the title of your game even though you clearly know about the extension and then going #vpoff during the game
Extremely bad manners. Stop it.

[SirPeebles]

8. Having no #vpoff in the title of your game even though you clearly know about the extension and then going #vpoff during the game
Extremely bad manners. Stop it.

Isn't vpoff the default?

[ashersky]

8. Having no #vpoff in the title of your game even though you clearly know about the extension and then going #vpoff during the game
Extremely bad manners. Stop it.

Isn't vpoff the default?

Sort of?  Like, there's no counter until it is turned on, but many have the mod set to turn on the counter at the beginning of the game.  #VPOFF in the game title stops that from happening.

[Awaclus]

8. Having no #vpoff in the title of your game even though you clearly know about the extension and then going #vpoff during the game
Extremely bad manners. Stop it.

Isn't vpoff the default?

The default is that you don't care whether or not it's on.

[KingZog3]

8. Having no #vpoff in the title of your game even though you clearly know about the extension and then going #vpoff during the game
Extremely bad manners. Stop it.

Isn't vpoff the default?

The default is that you don't care whether or not it's on.

Since I almost always host my games, I just let the person joining decide. They can turn it off if they like. It's my way of balancing out the fact that I have an awesome log that I can always look at and examine.

[matste]

8. Having no #vpoff in the title of your game even though you clearly know about the extension and then going #vpoff during the game
Extremely bad manners. Stop it.

You are like a chess player who takes an opening book to a match and then is offended by the fact that his  opponent doesn't agree on playing with it. Or am I missing something?
Also, in the sad reality of Goko I don't want to type '#vpoff' before hosting each and every game, especially when 80% of them don't even start.

[Kirian]

8. Having no #vpoff in the title of your game even though you clearly know about the extension and then going #vpoff during the game
Extremely bad manners. Stop it.

You are like a chess player who takes an opening book to a match and then is offended by the fact that his  opponent doesn't agree on playing with it. Or am I missing something?
Also, in the sad reality of Goko I don't want to type '#vpoff' before hosting each and every game, especially when 80% of them don't even start.

If you're hosting and you care about #vpoff, then you should be putting it into your game title.  If you aren't running the addon, it saves the game title with parameters for you.

[matste]

8. Having no #vpoff in the title of your game even though you clearly know about the extension and then going #vpoff during the game
Extremely bad manners. Stop it.

You are like a chess player who takes an opening book to a match and then is offended by the fact that his  opponent doesn't agree on playing with it. Or am I missing something?
Also, in the sad reality of Goko I don't want to type '#vpoff' before hosting each and every game, especially when 80% of them don't even start.

If you're hosting and you care about #vpoff, then you should be putting it into your game title.  If you aren't running the addon, it saves the game title with parameters for you.

Goko saves every parameter except the game title.

[Kirian]

8. Having no #vpoff in the title of your game even though you clearly know about the extension and then going #vpoff during the game
Extremely bad manners. Stop it.

You are like a chess player who takes an opening book to a match and then is offended by the fact that his  opponent doesn't agree on playing with it. Or am I missing something?
Also, in the sad reality of Goko I don't want to type '#vpoff' before hosting each and every game, especially when 80% of them don't even start.

If you're hosting and you care about #vpoff, then you should be putting it into your game title.  If you aren't running the addon, it saves the game title with parameters for you.

Goko saves every parameter except the game title.

The addon saves the title as well.  Seriously... you should be playing with the addon.  Worlds better.

[WanderingWinder]

8. Having no #vpoff in the title of your game even though you clearly know about the extension and then going #vpoff during the game
Extremely bad manners. Stop it.

8. Having no #vpoff in the title of your game even though you clearly know about the extension and then going #vpoff during the game
Extremely bad manners. Stop it.

You are like a chess player who takes an opening book to a match and then is offended by the fact that his  opponent doesn't agree on playing with it. Or am I missing something?
Also, in the sad reality of Goko I don't want to type '#vpoff' before hosting each and every game, especially when 80% of them don't even start.

If you're hosting and you care about #vpoff, then you should be putting it into your game title.  If you aren't running the addon, it saves the game title with parameters for you.

8. Having no #vpoff in the title of your game even though you clearly know about the extension and then going #vpoff during the game
Extremely bad manners. Stop it.

You are like a chess player who takes an opening book to a match and then is offended by the fact that his  opponent doesn't agree on playing with it. Or am I missing something?
Also, in the sad reality of Goko I don't want to type '#vpoff' before hosting each and every game, especially when 80% of them don't even start.

If you're hosting and you care about #vpoff, then you should be putting it into your game title.  If you aren't running the addon, it saves the game title with parameters for you.

Goko saves every parameter except the game title.

The addon saves the title as well.  Seriously... you should be playing with the addon.  Worlds better.

This is silly, especially because there's a limited amount of space in which Goko allows you to stick stuff in the title.
I should not be compelled to play with an extra thing if I don't want to.
And I shouldn't need to try to guess at what the person joining my game will/won't want.
This is like complaining about someone not buying expansions and not saying "base only" in their table name. I mean, yeah, I want to play with expansions, but if it is really important, either host your own game, or ask before joining the table.



I have a LOT more sympathy if it's them that's joining you, where you advertise it, and then they turn it off. There I am with you.

[Kirian]

This is silly, especially because there's a limited amount of space in which Goko allows you to stick stuff in the title.

There's plenty of space in the title for all the info you need.  "All Sets 5000+ #vpoff streaming" fits easily.

I should not be compelled to play with an extra thing if I don't want to.

Talk to Goko then; it should be simple for them to save the game name as well as any other settings.  Though, again, they need to work on stability issues first.

And I shouldn't need to try to guess at what the person joining my game will/won't want.

Right, but reasonable etiquette suggests that the person joining also shouldn't have to guess what the host wants, especially when the host can tell them, before the game, in the game title.

This is like complaining about someone not buying expansions and not saying "base only" in their table name. I mean, yeah, I want to play with expansions, but if it is really important, either host your own game, or ask before joining the table.

Sure, this is why I host all my own games.

I have a LOT more sympathy if it's them that's joining you, where you advertise it, and then they turn it off. There I am with you.

The host can't advertise #vpon and then turn it off, as it's locked and overridden by #vpon in the title.  If you're hosting and absolutely hate the point counter, put #vpoff in your title, and the addon will respect that.

----

In the end, though, the last word on this is that if you want your own parameters, host your own games.

[yed]

I have a LOT more sympathy if it's them that's joining you, where you advertise it, and then they turn it off. There I am with you.

It is not possible to turn VP counter off when there is #vpon in game title.

[yed]

Sure, this is why I host all my own games.

If all people do this you would not have anyone to play with

This is not an argument, just joke.

[SirPeebles]

I completely agree with WanderingWinder here.  Now I'm going to say more, but don't mean to imply that WanderingWinder agrees with it, of course.

The default is that you are playing Dominion, with the rules of Dominion.  Or at least with whatever Goko has given us as an implementation.  One of the rules of Dominion is that you can't go looking looking through your deck to count your score.  You might argue that if Dominion's rules were written for an online platform rather than a physical card game that this rule wouldn't exist (or more precisely, that there would be a point tracker).  Maybe, but a lot of Dominion would be different then.  For instance, if Dominion were an online game with a point tracker, Donald probably wouldn't have made Masquerade as is.

Now sure, maybe your opponent is secretly cheating by writing notes.  But come on people, let's have some mutual respect and trust.  It is a game.

The point is, it is absurd to assume that everyone will be playing by your favorite house rule unless they say otherwise in their title for the game that they are hosting.

[SirPeebles]

There's plenty of space in the title for all the info you need.  "All Sets 5000+ #vpoff streaming" fits easily.

That may fit, but I don't understand a single word of it, aside from (possibly) "All".

[Eevee]

I'm extremely with Awaclus here.

If someone didn't put #vpoff to the title but then disabled the counter after I joined, I'd feel like I got trapped into a game I didn't want to play (and would probably even resign out of frustration).

edit:
for me #vpon signals "I want to play with the counter", #vpoff signals "I want to play without the counter" and no specification signals "I'm fine either way".

[SirPeebles]

I'm extremely with Awaclus here.

If someone didn't put #vpoff to the title but then disabled the counter after I joined, I'd feel like I got trapped into a game I didn't want to play (and would probably even resign out of frustration).

edit:
for me #vpon signals "I want to play with the counter", #vpoff signals "I want to play without the counter" and no specification signals "I'm fine either way".

Is this #vpon stuff done by Goko?  I was under the impression that it is from an extension that some of you install.  If it is built into Goko, then I agree.

[KingZog3]

I'm extremely with Awaclus here.

If someone didn't put #vpoff to the title but then disabled the counter after I joined, I'd feel like I got trapped into a game I didn't want to play (and would probably even resign out of frustration).

edit:
for me #vpon signals "I want to play with the counter", #vpoff signals "I want to play without the counter" and no specification signals "I'm fine either way".

Is this #vpon stuff done by Goko?  I was under the impression that it is from an extension that some of you install.  If it is built into Goko, then I agree.

It's the extension (which is a google chrome add-on). But it's not automatic. If someone has it in the same, you can't turn off the counter. However, both players can always access the counter through the chat, so no one is left without it.

[Awaclus]

I'm extremely with Awaclus here.

If someone didn't put #vpoff to the title but then disabled the counter after I joined, I'd feel like I got trapped into a game I didn't want to play (and would probably even resign out of frustration).

edit:
for me #vpon signals "I want to play with the counter", #vpoff signals "I want to play without the counter" and no specification signals "I'm fine either way".

Is this #vpon stuff done by Goko?  I was under the impression that it is from an extension that some of you install.  If it is built into Goko, then I agree.

It's on their list of stuff they're going to implement in the future. It's understandable that you might want to #vpoff during the game if you didn't know about the extension, but for what reason you would choose to be uninformative on purpose if you know that a popular extension with a point counter feature exists?

[SirPeebles]

I'm extremely with Awaclus here.

If someone didn't put #vpoff to the title but then disabled the counter after I joined, I'd feel like I got trapped into a game I didn't want to play (and would probably even resign out of frustration).

edit:
for me #vpon signals "I want to play with the counter", #vpoff signals "I want to play without the counter" and no specification signals "I'm fine either way".

Is this #vpon stuff done by Goko?  I was under the impression that it is from an extension that some of you install.  If it is built into Goko, then I agree.

It's on their list of stuff they're going to implement in the future. It's understandable that you might want to #vpoff during the game if you didn't know about the extension, but for what reason you would choose to be uninformative on purpose if you know that a popular extension with a point counter feature exists?

You are assigning malicious intent to others.  That is the same thing silver spawn did regarding "offensive gg"s.   More likely, the person came to play Dominion, and the thought that she needs to essentially specify "standard rules" in the title never occurred to her.

[Polk5440]

8. Having no #vpoff in the title of your game even though you clearly know about the extension and then going #vpoff during the game
Extremely bad manners. Stop it.

You are confusing bad manners with pet peeve.

[Kirian]

There's plenty of space in the title for all the info you need.  "All Sets 5000+ #vpoff streaming" fits easily.

That may fit, but I don't understand a single word of it, aside from (possibly) "All".

All Sets:  I have all of the sets
5000+: I will only play with someone with a rating of 5000 or higher.
#vpoff: I will only play without a point counter.
streaming: I'm streaming this live (recording would be a similar word, if you were recording for YouTube); this is only used by a handful of players, obviously.

[Eevee]

I think knowingly doing what awaclus described is extremely inconsiderate. I don't care about gg's at all, but this actually affects the playing experience in a negative way and there is just no reason for someone to do that (other than ignorance, which is obviously an acceptable excuse, it's just good etiquette, not a rule everyone is required to learn before they can play).

Obviously all this comes back to us needing external extensions to make goko playable, but the thing is so widely used I think it's reasonable to assume even the ones not using it know about it. I'm really baffled this isn't obvious to everyone who is active in the community, so it's great this got brought up.

[Kirian]

You are assigning malicious intent to others.  That is the same thing silver spawn did regarding "offensive gg"s.   More likely, the person came to play Dominion, and the thought that she needs to essentially specify "standard rules" in the title never occurred to her.

Well, I can see two situations here:

(1) Host is unaware of the point counter addon, but doesn't want to play with point counters.  Opponent, after Turn 1, auto-chats the instructions for turning off the point counter.  Host follows the instructions and types #vpoff.

No problem here.

(2) Host is aware of or even runs the addon and doesn't want to play with point counters.  Opponent joins; host immediately types #vpoff.

And this is the one that's a problem.  And yes, half of it is Goko's problem:  If there were a setting like, say, on Iso, where you could choose [use|don't use|don't care] then hey, great, the matchup system will take care of that.  The default setting for someone running the addon, or for someone aware of the addon's near-ubiquity is "I don't care."  If the host is running the addon and wants never to use the counter, then it's really not much trouble to put #vpoff in the game name.  Otherwise, s/he is saying "I don't care" when s/he means "No point counters."

[A Drowned Kernel]

What about the situation where the player is aware of the counter and wants it off, but used the automatch, which automatically creates a game title? Are you obliged to inform your opponent you will be turning the counter off before the game starts? Most people click the "create game" button right away, so if you're not hosting, you don't have much of a chance.

[SirPeebles]

Thanks Kirian.  Is the # important?  Does the extension look for that or something?

As for "All Sets," my confusion is which cards this includes.  Probably at least the expansions, but what about the promos?  I remember seeing some people write "All Cards".  That seems to obviously imply that promos are included, but I remember seeing it back when you could only earn enough shields to get two of the three implemented promos.  Is there any standard lingo these days?

As for this larger debate, someone said that hosting a game which does not specify vpon or vpoff implies that the host doesn't care.  I would turn this around.  If you are choosing to join a game which doesn't specify, then you should be willing to go along with the host.  I mean really, what some of you are arguing is that it is bad manners to host a game using the standard rules without explicitly warning others that the standard rules will be used.  Am I being trolled or something?  How is that a defensible expectation?

[SirPeebles]

Kirian, i'm not familiar with how the vpoff stuff functions.  In scenario 2, what happens if the player does not type vpoff?  Doesn't the point counter need to be manually turned on by typing vpon?

[SCSN]

I've always wondered whether the #vpoff folks might not be taking that whole Dark Ages theme a bit too literally...

[Awaclus]

Kirian, i'm not familiar with how the vpoff stuff functions.  In scenario 2, what happens if the player does not type vpoff?  Doesn't the point counter need to be manually turned on by typing vpon?

Yeah, but the extension has an option which you can enable to automatically type it. If the player does not type #vpoff, players with the extension will see the score and players without the extension can type #vp? at any time to display the score in the chat.

[SirPeebles]

Kirian, i'm not familiar with how the vpoff stuff functions.  In scenario 2, what happens if the player does not type vpoff?  Doesn't the point counter need to be manually turned on by typing vpon?

Yeah, but the extension has an option which you can enable to automatically type it. If the player does not type #vpoff, players with the extension will see the score and players without the extension can type #vp? at any time to display the score in the chat.

Ok, that's what I thought.  That seems awfully presumptuous to just show up and say "hey I'm going to use this software to track my score for me" without asking.  If you aren't willing to ask about it, why should I have any hesitation in shutting it off?  This whole debate baffles me.

[Awaclus]

Kirian, i'm not familiar with how the vpoff stuff functions.  In scenario 2, what happens if the player does not type vpoff?  Doesn't the point counter need to be manually turned on by typing vpon?

Yeah, but the extension has an option which you can enable to automatically type it. If the player does not type #vpoff, players with the extension will see the score and players without the extension can type #vp? at any time to display the score in the chat.

Ok, that's what I thought.  That seems awfully presumptuous to just show up and say "hey I'm going to use this software to track my score for me" without asking.  If you aren't willing to ask about it, why should I have any hesitation in shutting it off?  This whole debate baffles me.

Yeah, you shouldn't hesitate at all. It's just that you should shut it off in the title of your game.

[dondon151]

I've always wondered whether the #vpoff folks might not be taking that whole Dark Ages theme a bit too literally...

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean.

[Polk5440]

I've always wondered whether the #vpoff folks might not be taking that whole Dark Ages theme a bit too literally...

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean.

Presumably that if you are unwilling to outsource low-level point tracking to a computer and insist on playing by the rules of Dominion you are holding back Progress, or something.

[GendoIkari]

I'm assuming that Goko still does the terrible thing of allowing the entire game log to be seen throughout the game? If this is the case, then a point counter makes much less of a difference.

Instead of "the point counter makes it so that tracking how many points each player has is no longer a skill that is useful to be good at the game" to "the point counter makes it so that if you want to know the person's score, you only need to spend a few seconds, rather than a minute or so, to find out what it is".

[GendoIkari]

I've always wondered whether the #vpoff folks might not be taking that whole Dark Ages theme a bit too literally...

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean.

Presumably that if you are unwilling to outsource low-level point tracking to a computer and insist on playing by the rules of Dominion you are holding back Progress, or something.

I assumed that the joke was that the theme of Dark Ages is scarcity and low-cost things; presumably leading to lower-scoring games than other sets. And having "vpoff" sounds like you are getting rid of VP completely, which is the extreme end of low-scoring games.

[KingZog3]

I'm assuming that Goko still does the terrible thing of allowing the entire game log to be seen throughout the game? If this is the case, then a point counter makes much less of a difference.

Instead of "the point counter makes it so that tracking how many points each player has is no longer a skill that is useful to be good at the game" to "the point counter makes it so that if you want to know the person's score, you only need to spend a few seconds, rather than a minute or so, to find out what it is".

You can see the game log, so the tracker is just a convenience. I use it, but I still keep track of what I've bought. It mostly just makes alt-VP games much simpler as opposed to me always checking to see how many cards my opponent has. IRL this is not an issue as I can actually see how big their deck is for things like Gardens.

[KingZog3]

Just played you silverspawn and I made sure not to say gg after I won because I didn't want you to feel bad about the game. I would like to ask though, why did you buy Silk Roads from the start of the game when it was a straight JOAT game?

[2.71828.....]

I've always wondered whether the #vpoff folks might not be taking that whole Dark Ages theme a bit too literally...

I am totally in the #vpany category.  I don't feel the need to have the vp counter, and I don't mind having it on.  However, saying that people are living in the dark ages by not wanting to have the vp counter on is a bit extreme and unhelpful.  There is no problem playing the game without the vp counter as if you were playing in person and not on the computer.  Also what Polk5440 said.

[eHalcyon]

If you really care about having the counter on, then host games with #vpon or only join games with #vpoon.  If you absolutely can't stand having the counter on, then host games with #vpoff or only join games with #vpoff. 

If someone hosts an unspecified game and then opts to turn off the vote counter, then there could be any number of reasons why they didn't just put #vpoff in the title.  Maybe they didn't know that was an option.  Maybe they just forgot.  Maybe they just don't feel like typing that in every title.  And even though the extension is well known and extremely useful, some people don't know about it, and some who do still choose to play without it.

Is the add-on even ubiquitous?  I mean, everyone knows about it in this community, but I would have assumed that there are a decent chunk of casual players who don't know about it, and even upon discovering it would prefer not to install an add-on for something that they only casually play.  And aren't there browsers or platforms on which the add-on is unavailable?

Yeah, a person hosting a game without a tag is ostensibly saying "I don't care", but so is the person joining that game.

[Awaclus]

If someone hosts an unspecified game and then opts to turn off the vote counter, then there could be any number of reasons why they didn't just put #vpoff in the title.  Maybe they didn't know that was an option.  Maybe they just forgot.  Maybe they just don't feel like typing that in every title.  And even though the extension is well known and extremely useful, some people don't know about it, and some who do still choose to play without it.

Is the add-on even ubiquitous?  I mean, everyone knows about it in this community, but I would have assumed that there are a decent chunk of casual players who don't know about it, and even upon discovering it would prefer not to install an add-on for something that they only casually play.  And aren't there browsers or platforms on which the add-on is unavailable?

I understand this, but I'd expect a #vpoff in the title at least from those people who are using a custom avatar.

[AdamH]

There's plenty of space in the title for all the info you need.  "All Sets 5000+ #vpoff streaming" fits easily.

I'm only able to fit 24 characters in the names of my games. How are you able to fit all of that?

[silverspawn]

Just played you silverspawn and I made sure not to say gg after I won because I didn't want you to feel bad about the game. I would like to ask though, why did you buy Silk Roads from the start of the game when it was a straight JOAT game?

idk cause I dont remember that game, but sometimes when im in bad shape, I just do random stuff that makes no sense, and even though I realise it while playing, I still just do it... its a mental problem. similar things have always hold me back in sc2. it doesn't happen to me nearly as often as it used to, but I can't think of many boards where i would open silk road when there's JOAD, so it was probably one of these times. and im at a personal low ranking wise, so... not the best mentality lately.

it's also possible that i've just not seen him. I'll try to dedicate at least a few seconds to every card before every game to think about how i want or don't want to use it, but... well sometimes it doesn't work. I've even managed to overlook chapel in the past. My latest attempt to fix that is to simply stop playing after a thrown game.

about the #vp thing: well, my personal opinion about it is pretty much that vp counters are an incredibly stupid idea, they take skill away from the game, which increases the luck ratio for every specific game, and I'm at a loss to understand why anyone who's invested in dominion would want to have one. So, i always disallow the counter, and I used to put it in the title of my games, but I don't anymore... not really sure why, it wasn't a conscious decision, I just kind of stopped doing it. From now on I'll probably do it again, since I don't want to be bm.

It seems to be controversial though, so I'll put it in the opening post.

You are assigning malicious intent to others.  That is the same thing silver spawn did regarding "offensive gg"s.   More likely, the person came to play Dominion, and the thought that she needs to essentially specify "standard rules" in the title never occurred to her.

The main problem here is that, other than in RTS, a lot of players aren't even aware that someone might have a problem with it, and might just think it shows good manner either way. It's also hard to claim that they are wrong, because there are no objectively valid arguments, and no-one can be forced to respect what is a kind of weird online consensus. Because of this, I can't claim it's bm, no matter how much I dislike it

please explain to me how I did that, because I really don't see it.

Also, pls dont put a space in my name...

What about the situation where the player is aware of the counter and wants it off, but used the automatch, which automatically creates a game title? Are you obliged to inform your opponent you will be turning the counter off before the game starts? Most people click the "create game" button right away, so if you're not hosting, you don't have much of a chance.

If you're playing automatch and your opponent disallowes the vp counter, you just have to deal with it. You could implement a filter for that into the addon, but as is, you can do whatever you want when using automatch.

[Awaclus]

about the #vp thing: well, my personal opinion about it is pretty much that vp counters are an incredibly stupid idea, they take skill away from the game, which increases the luck ratio for every specific game, and I'm at a loss to understand why anyone who's invested in dominion would want to have one.

Because building your deck so that you'll win even with bad draws is a more important skill than memorizing numbers.

[silverspawn]

about the #vp thing: well, my personal opinion about it is pretty much that vp counters are an incredibly stupid idea, they take skill away from the game, which increases the luck ratio for every specific game, and I'm at a loss to understand why anyone who's invested in dominion would want to have one.

Because building your deck so that you'll win even with bad draws is a more important skill than memorizing numbers.

First of all: why? who determined that it's "more important?" and secondly: a perfect player always knows exactly which cards are in his deck, drawing pile, and discard pile. Remembering stuff is part of what makes you a good player, whether you like it or not.

I also find counting to be pretty hard, even though that might sound strange. It really requires focus, because in a game where estates are passed around all the time, and everone has huge decks, you have to adapt your numbers constantly, while simultaniously thinking about the game. If you also have to do maths for some of your decisions, one tiny number can easily slip your mind. Winning a game because you counted and your opponent didn't is immensly satisfying, more so than winning cause of... pretty much anything else. I'm so glad you can turn it off.

[dondon151]

If you turn off the VP counter, your opponent can just keep track the old-fashioned way. You can't legislate it.

[silverspawn]

If you turn off the VP counter, your opponent can just keep track the old-fashioned way. You can't legislate it.

Yeah, and you could also write down everything else, really everything. You could have a physical copy of dominion nearby, and simulate the ongoing game, so that you can always see exactly how many points you have, your opponent has and which cards are left in your drawing pile and discard pile. If you have a nice desk and one of these fancy All-in-one-case thingies, it wouldn't even take that long. But it'd be a monstrous advantage.

So, we just have to hope noone does it, since there's no way to control it. I guess you could also debate whether doing something like that is bm

[dondon151]

To actually answer your question, the absence of point counters interferes with the players' ability to make maximally informed decisions at every phase of the game. Disabling the point counter would increase the luck element because either player can experience an unfortunate memory lapse or misremember some important detail and end up losing the game because of it.

[Awaclus]

about the #vp thing: well, my personal opinion about it is pretty much that vp counters are an incredibly stupid idea, they take skill away from the game, which increases the luck ratio for every specific game, and I'm at a loss to understand why anyone who's invested in dominion would want to have one.

Because building your deck so that you'll win even with bad draws is a more important skill than memorizing numbers.

First of all: why? who determined that it's "more important?" and secondly: a perfect player always knows exactly which cards are in his deck, drawing pile, and discard pile. Remembering stuff is part of what makes you a good player, whether you like it or not.

I also find counting to be pretty hard, even though that might sound strange. It really requires focus, because in a game where estates are passed around all the time, and everone has huge decks, you have to adapt your numbers constantly, while simultaniously thinking about the game. If you also have to do maths for some of your decisions, one tiny number can easily slip your mind. Winning a game because you counted and your opponent didn't is immensly satisfying, more so than winning cause of... pretty much anything else. I'm so glad you can turn it off.

I keep track of all of the cards that have been bought and trashed because the splits matter, and while I'm doing it for the kingdom cards, I also do it for the victory cards at the same time and I find it pretty easy. It's just very nice that if I happen to forget something, I don't have to guess at random.

[silverspawn]

To actually answer your question, the absence of point counters interferes with the players' ability to make maximally informed decisions at every phase of the game. Disabling the point counter would increase the luck element because either player can experience an unfortunate memory lapse or misremember some important detail and end up losing the game because of it.

so in other words: he lost because of missplay. I mean, you could also trash your last +buy due to a memory loss, because you used to have 2 and forgot that you already trashed one of them. The counters don't seem to make sense to me, becaue consequently you could just aswell add a counter for how many villages you have, or how many action cards, or, really, anything, and if you did all of that the game would be really boring. Constraining it to just VPs is arbitrary.

Still, I see what you mean, I was trying to preemptively counter that argument by adding the "who's invested in dominion" dependent clause, assuming that everyone who doesn't just play casually could also manage to count properly. Which, allowedly, isn't entierly true.

but whatever, I don't want to argue about it; if you think it's a good thing, just keep it enabled.

[yed]

about the #vp thing: well, my personal opinion about it is pretty much that vp counters are an incredibly stupid idea, they take skill away from the game, which increases the luck ratio for every specific game, and I'm at a loss to understand why anyone who's invested in dominion would want to have one.

The issue is that Goko shows full log during game. I have preferred VPOFF on Isotropic where only log from last turn was shown. When everyone has full log, I prefer VPON.

[markusin]

To actually answer your question, the absence of point counters interferes with the players' ability to make maximally informed decisions at every phase of the game. Disabling the point counter would increase the luck element because either player can experience an unfortunate memory lapse or misremember some important detail and end up losing the game because of it.

so in other words: he lost because of missplay. I mean, you could also trash your last +buy due to a memory loss, because you used to have 2 and forgot that you already trashed one of them. The counters don't seem to make sense to me, becaue consequently you could just aswell add a counter for how many villages you have, or how many action cards, or, really, anything, and if you did all of that the game would be really boring. Constraining it to just VPs is arbitrary.

Indeed it is kind of arbitrary. In fact, I believe there was a controversial add-on to Isotropic that did track who owned what. There really would be counters for how many villages you had and how many your opponent had.

With that amount of knowledge, you might as well code a bot to play the match. I actually wanted to suggest that in the variants forum at some point. Each player would look at the board, write a bot for it, and the bots would duke it out for 1000+ matches or until a clear winner was found. Removes the shuffle luck issue too.

[Polk5440]

How DO you parse your username? silver-spawn or silvers-pawn?

[Awaclus]

How DO you parse your username? silver-spawn or silvers-pawn?

silver-spa-wn, perhaps?

[silverspawn]

How DO you parse your username? silver-spawn or silvers-pawn?

silver-spawn^^ i had this  name way before dominion

[achmed_sender]

How DO you parse your username? silver-spawn or silvers-pawn?

silver-spawn^^ i had this  name way before dominion

Wait, there was a time before Dominion ?

[Awaclus]

How DO you parse your username? silver-spawn or silvers-pawn?

silver-spawn^^ i had this  name way before dominion

Wait, there was a time before Dominion ?

Yeah, you know, those times when some of us still had lives.

[Kirian]

There's plenty of space in the title for all the info you need.  "All Sets 5000+ #vpoff streaming" fits easily.

I'm only able to fit 24 characters in the names of my games. How are you able to fit all of that?

I stand corrected; I thought the field length was longer than that; certainly longer than that would fit on the screen.  That's annoying.

[KingZog3]

There's plenty of space in the title for all the info you need.  "All Sets 5000+ #vpoff streaming" fits easily.

I'm only able to fit 24 characters in the names of my games. How are you able to fit all of that?

I stand corrected; I thought the field length was longer than that; certainly longer than that would fit on the screen.  That's annoying.

More than 24 characters might crash Goko.

[SirPeebles]

There's plenty of space in the title for all the info you need.  "All Sets 5000+ #vpoff streaming" fits easily.

I'm only able to fit 24 characters in the names of my games. How are you able to fit all of that?

I stand corrected; I thought the field length was longer than that; certainly longer than that would fit on the screen.  That's annoying.

More than 24 characters might crash Goko.

They should probably split up your title into 40 different fields of up to 5 characters each.