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[Archetype]

Welcome to…
DoMafia I:

It depends on the kingdom...

Player List!
1. ashersky: Survivor!

2. pingpongsam Killed N1. He was Town-aligned. His cards were Scheme, Apprentice, Lookout, and Cartographer.

3. Young Nick Lynched D4. He was Mafia-aligned. No cards could be found on him.

4. Morgrim7( iz actualy Voltgloz): Survivor!

5. Captain_Frisk: Survivor!

6. Robz888: Survivor!

7. Galzria Killed N3. He was Town-aligned. His cards were Cartographer, Sage, and Scrying Pool.

8. Eevee Killed N2. He was Town-aligned. His cards were Scheme, Steward, Watchtower.

9. jotheonah: Survivor!

10. cayvie Lynched D3. She was Mafia-aligned. Her cards were Navigator and Menagerie.

11. Qvist: Survivor!

12. Dsell Lynched D2. He was Mafia-aligned. His cards were Smugglers, Cutpurse, and Tactician.

Mafia Ruleset (stolen and modified from Volt's Mafia VII intro post)

Game Rules:

General Gameplay and Etiquette:
1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind.  Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable. Don't make the same mistake I did: You cannot paraphrase your alignment, but you may paraphrase your cards.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it.  Mafia members may communicate at night and during the confirmation stage.
3. If you have a role with a Night action your choices are due to me by the posted deadline (48 hours from night start). If I do not receive your choice via PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions. In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage).
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mod know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase
6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 48 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving. (probably even more often with how short the days are!)

Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:
1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline. 
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate.  Further votes will also be ignored. 
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName.  Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax!  Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
5. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
6. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
7. This game will generally have 2 (1) week deadlines.  If a player or No Lynch does not have a simple majority at deadline, no lynch will occur, and the game will go into night.
8. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
9. Do not edit or delete posts.  We don't want some players having more information than others.  If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post.

Miscellaneous/Mechanics:
1. Bold, blue text is reserved for the Mod.  No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mod privately.  Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mod may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently.  Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed.  These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mod so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will NOT be issued automatically. (Look out for scummy lurkers, not just lurkers.) A prod will be issued upon request after 48 hours of no activity.  A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement.  A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement without further notice.
6. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including a Modkill.
7. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread.  Treat this game as a commitment.  Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.

The Golden Rule:

Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun! Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.

Helpful Links:
•   Main Wiki Page http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
•   Newbie Guide: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Newbie_Guide
•   Frequently Asked Questions: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ
•   Commonly Used Abbreviations: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Commonly_used_abbreviations
•   Mafia Theory: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Theory

About the game:
     It all started out as a friendly gaming night with your friends. You decided to play Dominion, with 12 people (not a good idea). It was supposed to be a casual game, but players started to notice players ganging up on  other players and even, kingmaking! That is against everything that is Dominion! It is up to you and your fellow Town members to get this game back to the way it used to be and make game night peaceful again!

Dominion + Mafia = Domafia!

     At the end of sign ups, everyone will draft a hand of Dominion cards. Each of these cards represents a 1-shot that can be used at night. There are 57 total cards used in the game and 37 unique cards. Each player will have a hand of 5 cards.
The possible Mafiascum-approved powers that are possibly used in the game:

Alignment Cop
Bodyguard
Bulletproof
Commuter
Deputy
Doctor
Doublevoter
Follower
Gunsmith
Hider
Innocent Child
Jailkeeper
Mason
Neighborizer
Roleblocker
Tracker
Watcher
Vigilante Kill
Voyeur

There will be at least 1 card with a Redirecting power. Any Redirecting powers used in this game will not manipulate the Mafia kill in any way.

There will also be some powers specific to this game. I cannot tell you what these additional powers are (as that will ruin the fun) but I promise they are balanced.

There are 3 Mafia-aligned players in the game (so, 9 Town-aligned players). They'll be given one of the following 1-shot Kill modifiers that may be used if that Mafia player completes the factional kill.

The possible Kill modifiers:
Ninja
Strongman
Janitor

The 1-shot kill modifier will replace one of the cards in a Mafia-aligned players hand. They can still play a card in addition to using their kill modifier.

      Each card can be 'played' (used) each night. These played cards will be placed in the Discard Pile Each card will do different things, but they can each only be used once. Once you've used all your cards, or lost them all (what! how? you'll see...) you no longer have a power, and work towards your goal (kill town/kill mafia).

      These cards are played in this way:
   1. Each player sends the mod the message "{Card Name}:{Targets (if any)}" or "No card played"
   2. Once everyone has sent the mod this message, the played cards will be carried out in this order:

         1. Play Modifiers (These modify how you play your cards)
         2. Protection (Doctors, Bodyguard etc)
         3. Roleblockers/Redirectors (pretty self-explanatory...)
         4. Investigative (Watcher, Tracker, etc)
         5. Kills (Mafia and/or Vigilante/Serial Killer)
         6. Discarders (Attack other player's hands)
         7. Inspection (Cops, Hand Glancers, etc)

There are >10 cards that do not fit specifically into any of these categories. I'll use them when they make the most sense.

Let's go into more detail...


What makes this game different from other Mafia games?
     Drafting: The cards (1-shots) will be drafted at the end of signups to see which players get which cards. Mafia will not be able to plan with each other until drafting is over. If you don't know what 'drafting' is, don't be shy, PM me, and I'll explain.
      The cards used in the drafting will only show their Dominion names. You will not know what the cards you chose do until the drafting is over. I will let you know that the cards' functions correlate to each card's name, effect in a game of Dominion, or sometimes both!
     Powers: There are NO Vanilla Townies! Yay! So I guess you could call this a RMM game, in a way. Only you will know the power of your cards once drafting is complete.
     Death: When a player dies, the cards in their hand as well as their alignment will be posted in a flavorful way. Deaths will be flavored (not just 'so-and-so' is dead), but the flavor will be very ambiguous. All cards lost from a player will be put into the Trash Pile.
     If the Janitor '1-shot kill modification' is in the game, and used, the cards in the players' hands as well as their alignment and flavorful death will be hidden. Though hiding the cause of death is pointless as it in no way helps you find Mafia.
     Deadline: 1 week deadlines. This should speed up the game, and let others be able to use their powers quicker.

Moderator Notes:
   *There is 3 Mafia, 9 Townies. These are the only possible alignments. No other Role PM modification will be made (so no Macho, Weak, Hated, etc) except for the cards you get at the beginning of the game. These cards can be used each night in the form of 1-shots.
        *Mafia will be able to communicate to each other each night, not during the day.
   *Each 'drafting hand' will be balanced. Each card is also balanced, but of course if the correct cards are played at the correct time by the correct players, they'll be better.
        *The name of cards used during the drafting pre-game phase will correlate to the cards affect either by the card's name, or what it actually does in a game of Dominion, or both!
   *This game won’t start until near the end of Volt’s game. Draft will begin at the end of signups, but the game won't start until other games conclude.
   *A co-mod isn't necessary, but if you want to be a part of the game, but not in the game, feel free to help me moderate, or look in the speccy QT.
        *This is important: All cards used each night will be publicly posted in-thread. Just the card's names. Not who they were used on, or who played them.
        *Try to be online often during the night phase. It'll make night actions flow a lot smoother.

I AM NOT THE MODERATOR OF F.DS IN ANY WAY. IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME, I AM MODERATING THAT THE RULES ARE FOLLOWED AND HIDDEN ACTIONS ARE COMPLETED PROPERLY.

[Galzria]

Confirmed.

[Insomniac]

Sign ups! (12 players)
1. ashersky
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
   *There is 3 Mafia, 9 Townies. Each player with their own stash of one-shots that they can use each night.

Hmm 9+3=12...so 2 serial killers then?

[Archetype]

Sign ups! (12 players)
1. ashersky
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
   *There is 3 Mafia, 9 Townies. Each player with their own stash of one-shots that they can use each night.

Hmm 9+3=12...so 2 serial killers then?

oh, woops. I'll go change that

[Young Nick]

yesssssssssss pleasssseeeeeeeeee

[Grujah]

Drafting MTG style?

[Archetype]

Drafting MTG style?

Never played Magic, but if you draft where you pick a card, pass the rest, rinse and repeat, then yes.

[Morgrim7]

inininiin oh most definitely in

[ashersky]

Confirmed!

[Grujah]

inininiin oh most definitely in

Of course you want to be in, you can't be a VT here

[Morgrim7]

inininiin oh most definitely in

Of course you want to be in, you can't be a VT here

hahaha yeah

[Robz888]

In.

[Captain_Frisk]

Hurricanes can't prevent me from being in.

[Archetype]

Update on setup:

Changed the title

There are 57 cards in the game.

Mafia has 4 cards in hand, but each mafia member gets a 1-shot NK modifier (Ninja, Strongman, etc)

All cards in the game are considerd 'normal' on Mafiascum except Redirecting cards, cause you have to have that power in this kind of game. There are some roles specific to this game, but they are all balanced.

Night Actions (cards played) are done in this way:

1. Each player submits the name of the card they want to use, or submits 'no card'.
2. Once I've received which action is wanted to be done by each player, I'll carry them
out in a specific order, not yet determind. (Commuting, Investigative, etc).

Will update soon once I've finalized what 57 cards are used and the order that they are resolved in.

[Grujah]

/in if after shakespeare.

[Archetype]

/in if after shakespeare.

Probably not after, but towards the end of it.

[Voltgloss]

Haven't had a chance to read this yet, but if this fills up with players before Shakespeare mafia is ready (I haven't had time to work on it recently due to hurricane-related issues), you have my blessing to start first.

[eHalcyon]

Will spectate.

[Archetype]

Will spectate.

Sweet!

Updated the OP. Clarified some things about the game.

All those who are already /in should reread it and so should those considering to /in. There's some pretty important info there. No rule changes, just some more info on the game mechanics.

[Archetype]

Haven't had a chance to read this yet, but if this fills up with players before Shakespeare mafia is ready (I haven't had time to work on it recently due to hurricane-related issues), you have my blessing to start first.

Thanks! I have all the cards written out as well as drafting hands made so once sign up fills up I'll be ready to go!

[Young Nick]

Still in. No doubt.

Shotty Ghost Ship. Imma be the house of pain.

[Archetype]

suprised Eevee or shraeye haven't signed up yet. Thought this game would be right up their alley.

[Archetype]

Role Madness. There are no Vanilla Townies and everyone has thier choice of a 1-shot each night.

So no Watcher, Bodyguard, Vigilante etc roles, but possibly a 1-shot of that power.

[Galzria]

Gonna /out - Got too much going on in the upcoming months. I'm already starting games I didn't really want to be in...

[Archetype]

Gonna /out - Got too much going on in the upcoming months. I'm already starting games I didn't really want to be in...

Totally understand. There's a lot of games going on.

[pingpongsam]

* pingpongsam is in

[cayvie]

i'm intrigued, waiting to see if i die off in any of my numerous games

[Archetype]

Suprised Eevee or Shraeye haven't /inned yet.

cayvie, you still interested?

[Eevee]

i'll probably /in eventually, just travelling ~all the time for the unforeseeable future so afraid of overcommiting myself.

[Archetype]

Makes sense, just trying to squeeze this in before Volt's. The game should go pretty quickly, with the 1 weeks deadlines and all that.

[Archetype]

Have all hands made, so just waiting for 5 more people to sign up.

Hopefully, with the end of jo's BM game, this'll fill up.

[Eevee]

fine yes.

[jotheonah]

well I'm dying left and right in other games, may as well /in

[cayvie]

ok, /in

[Archetype]

2 More people needed before we start drafting!

[Voltgloss]

This looks interesting, but one-week deadlines are not for me. 

Looks like this may be ready before Shakespeare mafia though, in which case please feel free to start up first!

[Galzria]

I kind of lose track of what I'm in... But I think I'm in:

M-XIII (small and slow)
M-XIV (winding down)
GoF-II (slow pace)
CE-IV (snails pace)

And I think that's it. I'm also signed up for an uncountable number of games.

Eh, one more won't hurt... Right?

Re-/in why not?

[Qvist]

No idea what this is all about.... Perfect! /in

[Archetype]

This looks interesting, but one-week deadlines are not for me. 

Looks like this may be ready before Shakespeare mafia though, in which case please feel free to start up first!

Thanks! Looks like it'll be starting!

I'll be sending out alignments and starting hands in a couple hours, going to a family thing.

[Galzria]

Sorry, know you just filled up, but going to /out here as well. If it looks like nobody is going to step in to play in a couple of days and you still need me I'll /in just so the game isn't held up.

[Archetype]

Sorry, know you just filled up, but going to /out here as well. If it looks like nobody is going to step in to play in a couple of days and you still need me I'll /in just so the game isn't held up.

Yeah, that's fine

Any replacements?

[Archetype]

PMs already made for each currently /in player (not sent out yet), as well as all QTs. Just need one more player and the drafting can begin!

Dsell? eHalc, you want to play instead of spectate? Galzria? shraeye?

[Dsell]

Ah, mafia has been really slow recently. I can handle one more, right?

In.

[Archetype]

Ah, mafia has been really slow recently. I can handle one more, right?

In.

Yay!

PMs being sent out to each player shortly. They will contain:

1. Alignment: Town or Mafia
2. Starting Hand: All players (except Mafia) choose one to add to thier hand, and pass the rest.
3. Adjacent Players: Players to their left and right. They recieve all hands (besides the first) from the player to their left, and pass cards to the player to their right. These players may have to interact with you when you play cards.
4. Short synopsis of how the drafting phase works.

THREAD LOCKED

DRAFTING PHASE HAS COMMENCED

[Archetype]

All PMs are out and about.

To everyone in the game: Try to stay online as much as you can during the drafting stage. It'll make things go faster. I'll certainly try my hardest.

If anyone wants the spec QT, PM me.

Quick rule clarifications:

If any 'Role blocking' is used, the card played will not be lost, it'll be returned to the owner's hand. All Role blocking cards cannot block the Mafia kill, but they can negate the Kill Modification (which, yes, is put back into their hand).

Redirecting also only deals with cards used, not any Mafia Kills.

Thread is still locked.

[Archetype]

Once Grujah and PPS reply back to me, we can start Hand 2!

[Archetype]

Looks like Grujah is out 
Thread semi-locked, only post if you are inning, and you will be able to jump right in! The sooner someone signs up, the better.

[Galzria]

Looks like Grujah is out 
Thread semi-locked, only post if you are inning, and you will be able to jump right in! The sooner someone signs up, the better.

Against my better judgment. Deal me in.

[Archetype]

Looks like Grujah is out 
Thread semi-locked, only post if you are inning, and you will be able to jump right in! The sooner someone signs up, the better.

Against my better judgment. Deal me in.

Cool, sending PM soon.

TO ALL PLAYERS: TREAT ANY ROLE PMS WITH THE NAME 'Grujah' IN IT AS GALZRIA.

[Archetype]

DRAFTING HAND 2 HAS BEGUN

[Archetype]

Drafting Hand 3 has begun!

Hopefully PPS will be more active...

[Archetype]

Drafting Hand 4 has begun!

There will be no Hand 5, you'll just get whatever card the player to your left doesn't want.

[Archetype]

Posting this so I don't forget anything:

When everyone receives their final hands they will contain:

1. Alignment (again)
2. Adjacent Players (again)
3. Cards, what phase you play them in, and what they do (yay!)

Here are the phases, all cards carried out in this order:

(I made a slight change)

1. Play Modifiers (change how cards are played)
2. Roleblockers (prevent cards from working)
3. Protection (protects you or others from harm)
4. Redirectors (change who people target)
5. Investigative (see certain night actions)
6. Kills (deaths of any kind)
7. Discarders (removes cards from self or others)
8. Inspection (look at a player's hand, alignment, etc)

If you one or more of your cards has an asterik next to what phase it is played in (ex: Investigative*) it is one of the weird cards. It usually doesnt mean it follows the description of that phase, just when it makes sense for that action to be carried out.

Role blockers and Redirectors do not affect the Mafia kill in any way. They only affect cards played. Role blockers will return the targeted player's card to their hand.

All town aligned players have 5 cards to start and all mafia aligned players have 4 cards and a 1-shot NK modification of some sort.

Potential NK modifications are:
Ninja
Strongman
Janitor

The name of all cards played each night will be posted in thread. When a player dies, whatever cards that played had will be publicly posted.

There are 57 total cards, and 37 unique cards. There are 3 Mafia, 9 Town. No other alignment is available.

I may post more things into the thread as I remember them. Make sure you read them, they will be vital to how the game works.

Deaths are flavorful, but give no clue to the killer's identity.

*FINAL HANDS HAVE NOT BEEN SENT OUT YET. I'LL TELL YOU WHEN THEY ARE OUT. I'M POSTING THIS SO EVERYONE CAN PREPARE FOR WHEN THEY GET THERE HANDS.

[pingpongsam]

Apologies to all, I have been indisposed of lately but am back and should be active going forward. I have zero objections to my card selections.

[Archetype]

Wooh, thank you PPS, getting worried.

Thread was locked still, but it's fine.

Sending out final PMs soon. It's going to take a while, so be patient

[Archetype]

Only 2 more PMs need to be sent out, just waiting for PPS to reply.

[Archetype]

Please PM if you haven't received your PM. Except PPS, and some else who is to the right of PPS.

[Archetype]

Alright, all the PMs are out. Time to write the D1 flavor.

All Mafia-aligned players can now talk in their QT while I write the flavor, so go do it!

Please PM if you have any questions about the powers of your cards.

This game should be up and running soon!

[Archetype]

Archetype was holding another weekly gaming night with himself, and 12 other friends. They were playing Dominion, as usual. Except this time, Archetype wasn’t there! When the friends arrived at his house, they found a note on the game's box:



“Can’t be here tonight, but have fun! Make sure you follow the rules! Have a good time!”



3 rule-breakers laughed maliciously after reading the note, “Following the rules?” One of them said, “I play by my own rules!”

They are tore open all the boxes and flung the cards at everyone,

“Take 1, and pass the rest!” They laughed.

“B-but, this isn’t how you play!” Someone yelled, “You’re supposed to choose only 10 different kingdom cards, not 37 unique cards!

“Well too bad! We’re playing with 57 cards, plus these cool promo Ninja, Strongman, and Janitor cards I made!” Other person yelled.

“Which ones do we use?” One of the rule breakers asked.

“I know which ones, but let’s not tell them,” Another rule breaker laughed.

“We’re done choosing,” One of the players grumbled.

“Finally!” One rule-breaker yelled, “Us three are going to cream you 9 rule-followers”

“We’ll see, now where are the Coppers and Estates?” Someone asked politely.

“What!? Those worthless things!? No, in this game you all start with 5 cards. We get 4 cards, plus one of these cool promo cards,”

“So, do we just play the cards and follow what they do or…?” A rule follower asked.

“No! They do what WE say!” A rule-breaker exclaimed.

“But that isn’t fair!” A good person yelled.

“Too bad!”

"Does anybody know who these guys are...?" Someone whispered.

“If Archetype was here, he wouldn’t have allowed it…” 

Day 1 has started!
Ends November 21st, 01:02:48 AM

Votes:
None!

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch (someone correct me if I'm wrong)



Mod note: Rule-breakers = Mafia, Rule-Followers = Townie

[Archetype]

*Thread UNLOCKED!

[Dsell]

Cheating is a crime.

Obviously the clear choice is to string 'em up!

Let's start with paralyzed, who terrorizes the game nights with mean KC-Goons-Masq pins.

[ashersky]

vote: pps for holding the game up.  I bet he was spending time making those promos!

[cayvie]

i definitely double checked to see if paralyzed was actually in this game

[Morgrim7]

hi guys how are you all i hope you are doing fine (and then morgrim carries on with a string of useless salutations) if youre reading this youre too close anyway yeah...

[cayvie]

man it's going to be hard to scumhunt when everyone's a weird JOAT variant

[ashersky]

man it's going to be hard to scumhunt when everyone's a weird JOAT variant

What do folks think about a no lynch in this situation?

[Qvist]

Haha, my hand is unbeatable. I'm going to win this game of Dominion.
Wait, what? This is a cooperative version of Dominion!?

Anyone has an idea what the Promo cards might do?

[ashersky]

Haha, my hand is unbeatable. I'm going to win this game of Dominion.
Wait, what? This is a cooperative version of Dominion!?

Anyone has an idea what the Promo cards might do?

I wish someone would rank them somehow...

[cayvie]

what does janitor do as a mafia ability in a game with no power roles?

[cayvie]

man it's going to be hard to scumhunt when everyone's a weird JOAT variant

What do folks think about a no lynch in this situation?

i don't think it's particularly stronger than normal; ie, probably a bad idea day 1.

[Qvist]

what does janitor do as a mafia ability in a game with no power roles?

cayvie, are you in the wrong game?

     Powers: There are NO Vanilla Townies! Yay! So I guess you could call this a RMM game, in a way. Only you will know the power of your cards once drafting is complete.

I didn't had in mind that the promo cards are all known Roles in Mafia, so I just looked them up and I'm fine. Sorry, I'm still new to Mafia.

[Captain_Frisk]

Mod, you list 7 required to. Lynch with 13 alive, but we are only 12?

[jotheonah]

What does Janitor do though? That one's new to me.

[jotheonah]

Man, between this game and Morgrim's game just remembering all my different powers, traits, and abilities is going to be a huge headache.

[pingpongsam]

Now, I have no way of knowing what others' cards do but mine make scumhunting based on night actions a viable strategy. As such, a D1 no-lynch makes sense from my isolated perspective.

I am curious to hear other people's analysis on this concept.

[Archetype]

@Captain_Frisk: Thanks! Figured I screwed something up! It is now 6 to lynch.

The Janitor, may it not be used in the game, 'cleans up the dead body' by preventing alignment from being shown.

In this game: The Janitor, if there is one, wil hide the cards belonging to the killed player when they die.

[Galzria]

I want to vote Archetype for having other obligations on gamenight. Seriously scummy dude.

PPS! Nice to see you back!

Regarding no lynch... It actually shouldn't be terrible here (if I understand my maths correctly) because we're in an Even-Parity night - That is, with 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch (half +1). If we no lynch and somebody dies, that leaves 11 alive, and it's 6 to lynch instead - which is much simpler than getting 7.

What's more, we don't lose a night, since if the average day/night contains 2 deaths (lynch/NK) then:

12 -> 10 -> 8 -> 6 -> 4 (4 is mylo with 1 scum remaining)
12 -!> 11 -> 9 -> 7 -> 5 -> 3 (lylo)

We lose out on the lynch the first day, but still end up with 4 lynch opportunities, and we actually increase our nights by 1, allowing more cards to get played to greater effect.

So... I actually don't think no lynch here is terrible.

[Captain_Frisk]

@Captain_Frisk: Thanks! Figured I screwed something up! It is now 6 to lynch.

The Janitor, may it not be used in the game, 'cleans up the dead body' by preventing alignment from being shown.

In this game: The Janitor, if there is one, wil hide the cards belonging to the killed player when they die.

Actually, usually with 12 players, it still requires 7 to lynch?

[jotheonah]

Obviously we want to have some discussion before we no lynch, but it seems like a good idea to do so.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: Cayvie for thinking otherwise 

[Qvist]

Actually I don't have any idea about how good or bad it is to not kill anybody this night.
But Galzria's calculation makes some sense, so I'm fine with that.

[Galzria]

Circling back to those numbers, it's important to note that those rely on just 2 deaths per cycle. Reducing deaths, through doctoring or jailkeeping obviously is good - the slower we go down the better - but if you are a Vig, a misfire can do serious damage.

This isn't a discussion we've really had openly yet on f.DS, but if you're a Vig, you should always be in touch with where the gamestate is, and what your firing means. My own personal rule of thumb is that it's better to take shots to the grave than to shoot wrong. Of course, I can't know that I'm right or wrong until I see the results, but my point is that I need to feel really strongly about my read when I pull the trigger.

The numbers, if you miss:

Assume we no-lynch here to get to odd parity:

11 -> 9 -> 7 -> 5 -> 3 (lylo)-> ??

Now, let's assume a misfire N1 (although the night is generally irrelevant):

11 -> 8 -> 6 -> 4 (mylo) -> ??

((I accounted for the extra night that does technically happen after mylo/lylo because in a game like this, those nights might matter and aren't straight endgame)).

We go from 5 lynches, 4 nights -> 4 lynches, 3 nights.

The shot doesn't just cost us a lynch, it costs us a night as well. We could, of course, gain the night back by no-lynching again, but then (assuming the Vig shot missed), we've essentially given the scum two free town kills.

Of course, if you hit scum, you're a hero - but f.DS has a terrible track record of doing so.

My point isn't that you should never fire. Vigilantes ARE pro-town. But more than any other role out there you need to use that power wisely, as it's detriment to the town if you're wrong can be crippling. Shoot if you think you've got the shot, but don't be afraid to take shots to the grave either.

[Robz888]

Okay, I am intrigued about No Lynching Day 1.  That's something to seriously consider.

I will take an even stronger position than Galz on the Vigilante issue: Don't shoot. Just don't. Let's save the vigging for a later night, perhaps after vigorous public discussion about it. The lone gunmans have been almost unilaterally disastrous for the town.

I wonder how much protection we have available to us collectively, and those powers--those, and the investigative powers--should be used earlier and more aggressively, I should think.

[Captain_Frisk]

Okay, I am intrigued about No Lynching Day 1.  That's something to seriously consider.

I will take an even stronger position than Galz on the Vigilante issue: Don't shoot. Just don't. Let's save the vigging for a later night, perhaps after vigorous public discussion about it. The lone gunmans have been almost unilaterally disastrous for the town.

I wonder how much protection we have available to us collectively, and those powers--those, and the investigative powers--should be used earlier and more aggressively, I should think.

Regarding Vigs - since the powers are attached to our cards - it is therefore possible for scum to have additional kills, correct?

[Robz888]

That is my understanding.

[Captain_Frisk]

That is my understanding.

Thus no lynching and relying on no vigging may not result in the # of days that the great Galzria has predicted.

[Galzria]

That is my understanding.

Thus no lynching and relying on no vigging may not result in the # of days that the great Galzria has predicted.

That's merely a maximum model. And while we cannot control scum possibly having extra shots from cards, the last thing we want is to help them out by firing at ourselves.

[Young Nick]

Just checking in. Until the weekend, I won't be active much. Galzria's NL stuff seems interesting, but let's certainly not rush to a NL. Discussion always helps town.

[Captain_Frisk]

Wait a second... why are we having theory discussion before RVS?

Vote: Galzria for trying to skip the most fun part!

[Dsell]

This is essentially a role madness game, right? I don't know how it'll play out so I could see both sides of the NL idea. I don't think I'm as opposed to it these days I guess; I used to think that we shouldn't rely only on our night actions to get us through the game and while I still believe that, the majority of info does seem to come from the night.

But that is mostly based on RMM1, RMM3, and BMV, and Role Madness games do each feel like a learning experience. I guess I'd suggest not deciding on a specific course of action and just play it by ear. We have had some success lynching (and finding but then not lynching) scum day 1 so if someone seems like likely mafia we'd be foolish not to lynch them, since this same plan works if we no-lynch on a different day (if it works at all).

[Captain_Frisk]

Speaking as scum from RMMMMM3 - massclaim here might be a good idea. 

Scum here are forced to lie (they will need to invent a card) - but being forced to be on the record from day 1 (and potentially before other people can claim)

Now - there are some cards in my hand that i'd rather not have scum know what they do, so maybe a full claim isn't a slam dunk - but a set claim might be - as it still forces scum to lie in a manner that can potentially be detected.

[Galzria]

Speaking as scum from RMMMMM3 - massclaim here might be a good idea. 

Scum here are forced to lie (they will need to invent a card) - but being forced to be on the record from day 1 (and potentially before other people can claim)

Now - there are some cards in my hand that i'd rather not have scum know what they do, so maybe a full claim isn't a slam dunk - but a set claim might be - as it still forces scum to lie in a manner that can potentially be detected.

There's actually a slight check in place, as I know for a fact that person on my left got:

Card {X}
Card {A, B}
Card {L, M, N}
Card {R, S, T, U}

based on what I did not take each round. I also know my starting hand. You could massclaim such that it's nearly impossible to fakeclaim anything except the first card you kept.

[Eevee]

I don't really like this nolynch idea. We have NO idea how many nightkills we'll be seeing, so parity is less of a concern in my opinion.

[Eevee]

Some kind of a massclaim on the other hand could indeed be very rough for scum.

[jotheonah]

Remember that 57 cards and 37 unique cards means 20 cards that are non-unique. So claiming card names could very well give scum a better idea of your capabilities than you'd like them to have.

[Dsell]

I guess I am not sure how we would identify scum in the case of a massclaim. They would not likely lie about their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th cards unless they picked all attacks or something (which, frankly, I could see town doing too) so we would only be able to catch them on their first choice. But there are a lot of duplicate cards, so if they were to just claim a card that exists in the game but they did not see, I don't know how we could catch them.

And that's just the upside. The downside is that then the mafia has a good idea of who's dangerous and who's not. There could be some nice coordination that happens from it, but I think it's more likely it will benefit scum more than town.

I'm not totally opposed though, I could definitely change my mind if a good argument is made. Indeed, in RMM3, a massclaim allowed me to determine exactly who was scum and who was town. That was a lot later in the game, however, and we had a lot more information. So I'm wary of trying something like this on D1.

[Captain_Frisk]

There are still only 27 unique cards in the game.  They can claim some of the other cards that they've seen, but then the person to their left might be able to make it up. 

The only concern I have with name claiming (vs. set) is that scum who have duplicates of my cards will actually know what the cards do, and overnight they will be able to piece together a big piece of the setup, since scum should know the functions of 12 cards tonight.

If we're going to go further and full claim card names, then we might as go so far as to claim powers (which are alot harder to fake!)

[Galzria]

My biggest concern is that I DO think some people will end up with bigger targets on their backs, and claiming will allow Mafia to pick off the most dangerous townies of their choice.

[Robz888]

Why... why should we do this at all? I don't think the cards will give away scum. Why would they? I mean, if someone's hand is Goons/Witch/Mountebank/Possession, I suppose that's probably a scummy person, but I know that I was just likely to pick cards from Dominion that I like, or cards that sounded powerful, and I did that regardless of my alignment.

[Captain_Frisk]

My biggest concern is that I DO think some people will end up with bigger targets on their backs, and claiming will allow Mafia to pick off the most dangerous townies of their choice.

Are you opposed to providing set claims (ie. I have 5 cornucopia cards) vs. card name  (I have 5 jesters)

Claim: I am a jester

[Robz888]

What... what does this mean?

[Dsell]

The first post says town and mafia are the only possible alignments...is that a serious claim? Is a town/mafia aligned jester even possible? If you're trying to make a point, Frisk, I don't get it.

[Robz888]

Yeah, we need a full explanation right now, Frisk.

Vote: Captain_Frisk

[Captain_Frisk]

Don't you remember the O fakeclaim Jester during RVS?

[Robz888]

Don't you remember the O fakeclaim Jester during RVS?

So you are saying you fakeclaimed?

[Qvist]

Ok, that's obvious. You make it too easy CF.
Vote: Captain_Frisk

[Captain_Frisk]

Of course I did.  The original post is very clear that everything in this game is considered normal.

[Captain_Frisk]

And HUGE FOS RoBZ + QVist for trying to distract Galz from answering the question

[Galzria]

And HUGE FOS RoBZ + QVist for trying to distract Galz from answering the question

They're just trying to give me a reason to vote for you. RVS isn't good enough for me.

Set claiming probably wouldn't hurt, although my cards are quite varied. I would want a more concrete goal though. What are we proving/showing that will help catch scum? Even if we assume everybody here claims 100% accurately, excepting scum who accurately claim 4 cards, but fakeclaim 1 - what do we learn from that?

[pingpongsam]

All but one of my cards was selected for me, so how does that jive with this little plan?

[Captain_Frisk]

And HUGE FOS RoBZ + QVist for trying to distract Galz from answering the question

They're just trying to give me a reason to vote for you. RVS isn't good enough for me.

Set claiming probably wouldn't hurt, although my cards are quite varied. I would want a more concrete goal though. What are we proving/showing that will help catch scum? Even if we assume everybody here claims 100% accurately, excepting scum who accurately claim 4 cards, but fakeclaim 1 - what do we learn from that?

[Eevee]

I don't even understand. My card picking was pretty much random, I took cards I like in dominion and cards that seemed to be cool as power roles. Did we even know our alignments when we started the draft?

[Captain_Frisk]

I don't even understand. My card picking was pretty much random, I took cards I like in dominion and cards that seemed to be cool as power roles. Did we even know our alignments when we started the draft?

Vote: Eevee - because I knew my alignment when I drafted.

[Galzria]

And HUGE FOS RoBZ + QVist for trying to distract Galz from answering the question

They're just trying to give me a reason to vote for you. RVS isn't good enough for me.

Set claiming probably wouldn't hurt, although my cards are quite varied. I would want a more concrete goal though. What are we proving/showing that will help catch scum? Even if we assume everybody here claims 100% accurately, excepting scum who accurately claim 4 cards, but fakeclaim 1 - what do we learn from that?

You're the one that proposed massclaiming! Lol!

[Eevee]

I don't even understand. My card picking was pretty much random, I took cards I like in dominion and cards that seemed to be cool as power roles. Did we even know our alignments when we started the draft?

Vote: Eevee - because I knew my alignment when I drafted.

Seems I did too, just forgot. Carry on.

[Young Nick]

Vote: Eevee because I doubt he's actually that foolish.

[Captain_Frisk]

Unvote: Eevee because I doubt he's actually that foolish.

[jotheonah]

Why... why should we do this at all? I don't think the cards will give away scum. Why would they? I mean, if someone's hand is Goons/Witch/Mountebank/Possession, I suppose that's probably a scummy person, but I know that I was just likely to pick cards from Dominion that I like, or cards that sounded powerful, and I did that regardless of my alignment.

For that matter, I was grabbing up scary looking attack cards whenever possible to keep them OUT of the hands of scum.

[ashersky]

This is why I get heat as a lurker.  I propose the No Lynch idea, Galz gets all the credit.

Vote: Everyone who did that.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok - so first - card claiming forces scum to lie, without really forcing town to divulge information.  This is already a good idea. 

Here's a non fishing example of why its a good idea.

Day 1 - we all claim our sets

Day 2 - we claim the set of the card that we played + the sets of cards in hand.  Per a PM i had with Jorbles last night - the names of all cards played will be revealed.

In this manner, scum can not use their power cards without lying about the card that they played, and we can isolate scum to a group of people who have claimed that particular set type.

[jotheonah]

So you're suggesting we each claim which set each of our five cards is from? OR just our first card?

[Captain_Frisk]

Well, presumably you won't want to claim which card you will play tonight until after the flip (if there is one)

I propose at the very least set claiming all 5 cards today, and then tomorrow claiming at least the set of the card played.

[ashersky]

Well, presumably you won't want to claim which card you will play tonight until after the flip (if there is one)

I propose at the very least set claiming all 5 cards today, and then tomorrow claiming at least the set of the card played.

This puts folks with promos, at the least, at a disadvantage.  When there's so few, it makes it easy to point people out.

[cayvie]

Well, presumably you won't want to claim which card you will play tonight until after the flip (if there is one)

I propose at the very least set claiming all 5 cards today, and then tomorrow claiming at least the set of the card played.

sure, that sounds fine

[pingpongsam]

I was about to switch votes to Y_N for appearing a bit happy to form a wagon but Cayvie's later support of what I feel to be inherently ant-town makes me happy with my vote where it is at.

I think Town stands the higher advantage with ignorance as to who holds what cards. While Town may presumably use the information in later game to deduce who is scum I think Scum gets the higher early advantage of sniping the more powerful card holders which they cannot do in ignorance. I feel this game actually levels the night time playing field for Town and by divulging cards we tilt the night-time field back in favor of scum.

[Robz888]

I don't even understand. My card picking was pretty much random, I took cards I like in dominion and cards that seemed to be cool as power roles. Did we even know our alignments when we started the draft?

Vote: Eevee - because I knew my alignment when I drafted.

Seems I did too, just forgot. Carry on.

I also thought I didn't know my alignment when I drafted, but now that I went back and looked, yes I did. So no FOS for Eevee there, I did the same thing.

[Robz888]

I don't understand why Frisk hasn't clarified his Jester claim yet. And no one else seems to care.

Are you a jester, as in if we kill you, you win? What is your win condition? What are your cards?

[Captain_Frisk]

I don't understand why Frisk hasn't clarified his Jester claim yet. And no one else seems to care.

Are you a jester, as in if we kill you, you win? What is your win condition? What are your cards?

I'm obviously not a jester.  I was illustrating a hand full of jesters (all cornucopia), and then for fun i claimed jester.

[cayvie]

I was about to switch votes to Y_N for appearing a bit happy to form a wagon but Cayvie's later support of what I feel to be inherently ant-town makes me happy with my vote where it is at.

I think Town stands the higher advantage with ignorance as to who holds what cards. While Town may presumably use the information in later game to deduce who is scum I think Scum gets the higher early advantage of sniping the more powerful card holders which they cannot do in ignorance. I feel this game actually levels the night time playing field for Town and by divulging cards we tilt the night-time field back in favor of scum.

you really think that

a) there's likely to be strong differences in power level between players' hands

and

b) mafia will be able to recognize the strongest hands from set names?

[Robz888]

I don't understand why Frisk hasn't clarified his Jester claim yet. And no one else seems to care.

Are you a jester, as in if we kill you, you win? What is your win condition? What are your cards?

I'm obviously not a jester.  I was illustrating a hand full of jesters (all cornucopia), and then for fun i claimed jester.

Ooooh that burns me up. I will keep my vote on you.

[Dsell]

I misread something earlier and was really confused about how the claiming is gonna go down. But I guess it makes sense. I'm still not really really behind the idea, but I'll follow suit if that's what people want. It doesn't hurt as an experiment.

[Dsell]

I don't understand why Frisk hasn't clarified his Jester claim yet. And no one else seems to care.

Are you a jester, as in if we kill you, you win? What is your win condition? What are your cards?

I'm obviously not a jester.  I was illustrating a hand full of jesters (all cornucopia), and then for fun i claimed jester.

Ooooh that burns me up. I will keep my vote on you.

I think he was awkwardly pretending it was RVS even though we'd already had some theory talk. I thought he might be serious at first but he has to be telling the truth about joking...

[Robz888]

Set claiming today is fine, I think.

[Captain_Frisk]

Guys - read the first post.  All roles are normal.

[Dsell]

Guys - read the first post.  All roles are normal.

That's what I'm saying. There's no way you're lying. But it just didn't come across as jokey at first since we (I think even you) had kinda skipped RVS and were just talking about theory.

[Robz888]

Guys - read the first post.  All roles are normal.

That's what I'm saying. There's no way you're lying. But it just didn't come across as jokey at first since we (I think even you) had kinda skipped RVS and were just talking about theory.

Exactly. The goal is to reduce useless RVS as little as possible. We were out, and you dived right back in.

And you're always scum.

[Dsell]

And you're always scum.

Truer words have never been spoken.

[Eevee]

Guys - read the first post.  All roles are normal.

That's what I'm saying. There's no way you're lying. But it just didn't come across as jokey at first since we (I think even you) had kinda skipped RVS and were just talking about theory.

Exactly. The goal is to reduce useless RVS as little as possible. We were out, and you dived right back in.

And you're always scum.

I don't like it either (because RVS is stupid). But to be fair, I don't see it as a particularly scummy action.

[Dsell]

Robz is kinda taking this all very seriously. I don't think RVS is very helpful, but honing in on someone for a joke is a little silly too. The problem, and the reason I can identify, is that it wasn't obviously joking at first. But anyway I don't think it makes either one terribly scummy.

I guess I could see them doing something like that to set up conflict as scumbuddies but that is not a serious theory, it is far far far too early to be seeing scum and especially scumbuddies.

[Archetype]

Well, presumably you won't want to claim which card you will play tonight until after the flip (if there is one)

I propose at the very least set claiming all 5 cards today, and then tomorrow claiming at least the set of the card played.

This puts folks with promos, at the least, at a disadvantage.  When there's so few, it makes it easy to point people out.

Remember, only Mafia members have the 'promos' (kill modifications).These are given to them at the beginning, and then they pick 4 cards.

Please note that these kill modifications aren't actually in their hand. I just said they were actual cards for flavor.

Set up is 3 Mafia, 9 Town. No other alignment is available.

[Robz888]

Robz is kinda taking this all very seriously. I don't think RVS is very helpful, but honing in on someone for a joke is a little silly too. The problem, and the reason I can identify, is that it wasn't obviously joking at first. But anyway I don't think it makes either one terribly scummy.

I guess I could see them doing something like that to set up conflict as scumbuddies but that is not a serious theory, it is far far far too early to be seeing scum and especially scumbuddies.

I usually play very seriously. I don't care for RVS or much early-game humor. (The exception is if I am over-committed with games, then I tend to lapse into nonsense. But at the moment I am game-deprived.)

[Dsell]

Robz is kinda taking this all very seriously. I don't think RVS is very helpful, but honing in on someone for a joke is a little silly too. The problem, and the reason I can identify, is that it wasn't obviously joking at first. But anyway I don't think it makes either one terribly scummy.

I guess I could see them doing something like that to set up conflict as scumbuddies but that is not a serious theory, it is far far far too early to be seeing scum and especially scumbuddies.

I usually play very seriously. I don't care for RVS or much early-game humor. (The exception is if I am over-committed with games, then I tend to lapse into nonsense. But at the moment I am game-deprived.)

Yeah, I know this very well.

[Qvist]

Ok, I can't see any benefit from set-claiming. I mean we will know nothing more than before.
Yes, it won't hurt either, so I'm fine doing that.

Mass claim sounds like a good idea. But we should wait until there's an appriopiate moment.
Probably day 2/3 when we have already some PRs and they could verify claims with their power.

I don't liked that claim, no matter if it was fun or not CF. I keep my vote on you for now.

[Eevee]

Qvist, vote for mafia not for scum.

[Eevee]

(Eevee to the rescue!)

I don't have a town read on Frisk, but I don't think making bad jokes is a good reason for a wagon.

[pingpongsam]

I was about to switch votes to Y_N for appearing a bit happy to form a wagon but Cayvie's later support of what I feel to be inherently ant-town makes me happy with my vote where it is at.

I think Town stands the higher advantage with ignorance as to who holds what cards. While Town may presumably use the information in later game to deduce who is scum I think Scum gets the higher early advantage of sniping the more powerful card holders which they cannot do in ignorance. I feel this game actually levels the night time playing field for Town and by divulging cards we tilt the night-time field back in favor of scum.

you really think that

a) there's likely to be strong differences in power level between players' hands

and

b) mafia will be able to recognize the strongest hands from set names?

I said neither of these things. You did. You are leading the witness, so to speak. Scum behavior.

What I know is that with the exception of one of my cards the effect is easily deduced by the card name.

[Dsell]

(Eevee to the rescue!)

I don't have a town read on Frisk, but I don't think making bad jokes is a good reason for a wagon.

To be fair, two votes isn't exactly a wagon yet.

[Qvist]

Qvist, vote for mafia not for scum.

  Mafia = Scum in this game, isn't it? Or what am I missing?

[Eevee]

Qvist, vote for mafia not for scum.

  Mafia = Scum in this game, isn't it? Or what am I missing?

You shouldn't vote for behavior you deem anti-town, you should vote for people you think are most likely to be mafia.

[Qvist]

Ah, now I did understand you. And I agree.
Yeah, but that early in the game, this is the only anti-town behaviour I see. So I keep voting for CF.

[Captain_Frisk]

I call for a vote on claiming

1. Set claiming
2. Card name claiming
3. Full card claiming

I vote:

Yes
Probably
No

[Eevee]

Yes
Probably
No

Yes, I'm probably easily lead. No.

[Galzria]

1. Yes
2. No
3. No

I was very specific with my card choices, and names would reveal power.

[cayvie]

1 Yes
2 No
3 No

[Eevee]

Guys answering this might actually be a pretty bad idea!!

[Young Nick]

Guys answering this might actually be a pretty bad idea!!

At this stage in the game, it seems pretty innocuous to me.

Yes. No. No.

[Captain_Frisk]

Guys answering this might actually be a pretty bad idea!!

Answering whether or not you like claiming?  Why?

[Eevee]

Guys answering this might actually be a pretty bad idea!!

Answering whether or not you like claiming?  Why?

There is information for scum in our answers. The more powerful one's cards are, the more likely he is going to be okay with various claims.

[cayvie]

Guys answering this might actually be a pretty bad idea!!

Answering whether or not you like claiming?  Why?

There is information for scum in our answers. The more powerful one's cards are, the more likely he is going to be okay with various claims.

i would think it would go the other way...

[jotheonah]

No. No. No.

Vote: Captain_Frisk

[Eevee]

Guys answering this might actually be a pretty bad idea!!

Answering whether or not you like claiming?  Why?

There is information for scum in our answers. The more powerful one's cards are, the more likely he is going to be okay with various claims.

i would think it would go the other way...

Yeah that's what I meant, sorry.

[Morgrim7]

Yes.
No.
No.

[ashersky]

Well, presumably you won't want to claim which card you will play tonight until after the flip (if there is one)

I propose at the very least set claiming all 5 cards today, and then tomorrow claiming at least the set of the card played.

This puts folks with promos, at the least, at a disadvantage.  When there's so few, it makes it easy to point people out.

Remember, only Mafia members have the 'promos' (kill modifications).These are given to them at the beginning, and then they pick 4 cards.

Please note that these kill modifications aren't actually in their hand. I just said they were actual cards for flavor.

Set up is 3 Mafia, 9 Town. No other alignment is available.

I meant the actual promos, like Governor and Walled Village.

[ashersky]

No. No. No.

Vote: Captain_Frisk

This.  Seems like blantant fishing by Frisk.

Vote: CF

[Archetype]

Well, presumably you won't want to claim which card you will play tonight until after the flip (if there is one)

I propose at the very least set claiming all 5 cards today, and then tomorrow claiming at least the set of the card played.

This puts folks with promos, at the least, at a disadvantage.  When there's so few, it makes it easy to point people out.

Remember, only Mafia members have the 'promos' (kill modifications).These are given to them at the beginning, and then they pick 4 cards.

Please note that these kill modifications aren't actually in their hand. I just said they were actual cards for flavor.

Set up is 3 Mafia, 9 Town. No other alignment is available.

I meant the actual promos, like Governor and Walled Village.

oh, yeah, woops. Just saw 'promos' when I was scrolling through the thread. Assumed you meant the fake promos. My mistake.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1:

cayvie (1) -- pingpongsam
Captain_Frisk (4) -- Robz888, Qvist, jotheonah, ashersky
Eevee (1) -- Young Nick

Not Voting (6) -- Dsell, cayvie, Morgrim7, Galzria, Captain_Frisk, Eevee

With 12 alive it takes 7 (thanks C_F!) to lynch. Day 1 lynch deadline is Wednesday, November 21st, at 1:00 AM forum time.

[Dsell]

I would give my answer, but doesn't this all fall apart if not everybody agrees to claim? So if Ashersky and Jo won't claim, doesn't that make the rest of our claims somewhat pointless?

[jotheonah]

I'll totally set claim if the town decides on it. I'll even change my first no to a maybe.

[Eevee]

Vote: Morgrim7

[ashersky]

I'll totally set claim if the town decides on it. I'll even change my first no to a maybe.

I would set claim.

I agreed with joth that the Frisk fish was bad, not the total idea.  Set claiming seems useless to me, anyway, which is why I'd be okay with it.

[Dsell]

Well, my answers would also be

Yes (closer to maybe)
No
No

[Captain_Frisk]

I'll totally set claim if the town decides on it. I'll even change my first no to a maybe.

I would set claim.

I agreed with joth that the Frisk fish was bad, not the total idea.  Set claiming seems useless to me, anyway, which is why I'd be okay with it.

How is it fishing if its useless?

[ashersky]

I'll totally set claim if the town decides on it. I'll even change my first no to a maybe.

I would set claim.

I agreed with joth that the Frisk fish was bad, not the total idea.  Set claiming seems useless to me, anyway, which is why I'd be okay with it.

How is it fishing if its useless?

Set claiming is useless.  You were asking to claim everything with your three options.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'll totally set claim if the town decides on it. I'll even change my first no to a maybe.

I would set claim.

I agreed with joth that the Frisk fish was bad, not the total idea.  Set claiming seems useless to me, anyway, which is why I'd be okay with it.

How is it fishing if its useless?

Set claiming is useless.  You were asking to claim everything with your three options.

I was asking for a vote on whether you're interested in set / name / full claiming... so if you're ok with set only... then you answer Yes / No / No.

This isn't fishing, just trying to clarify whether or not the town consensus is that we should claim, and how much.

There is no fishing here.

[ashersky]

Yes since I don't see it helping anyone, absolutely no, absolutely no.

[Eevee]

There is some fishing there Frisk. The guys who oppose the claiming business have stronger roles on average. It's kind of far-fetched to think that was your plan though.

[Captain_Frisk]

There is some fishing there Frisk. The guys who oppose the claiming business have stronger roles on average. It's kind of far-fetched to think that was your plan though.

You think there is a correlation between set and card strength?

[cayvie]

he's talking about the answer to your second question, whether we should card-claim or not

[Qvist]

Don't mind.
No(t yet)
No

[jotheonah]

Kinda dead in here.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok - quick vote tallies

PPS and RobZ(!) haven't voted

For Set Claiming - everyone but Joth.  (DSEll / Qvist / asher are semi neutral)
For card name claiming - 2 maybes (CF + eevee) - everyone else opposed
Full claim: noone

[jotheonah]

I'm warming to setclaiming. I mainly said no because I have such bad memories of that ZM2 massclaim that ruined everything, and after that I vowed to oppose all massclaiming of any kind, so I feel like I should stick to those guns.

Also the last game where we set claimed was Ozle's Murder Mystery, and Eevee ended up getting screwed because he had a Promo card. So that's still a consideration.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm warming to setclaiming. I mainly said no because I have such bad memories of that ZM2 massclaim that ruined everything, and after that I vowed to oppose all massclaiming of any kind, so I feel like I should stick to those guns.

Also the last game where we set claimed was Ozle's Murder Mystery, and Eevee ended up getting screwed because he had a Promo card. So that's still a consideration.

It's funny, because after RMMMMMMMMMM3 - where I was DEATHLY AFRAID of massclaiming, i now have a positive association.

[jotheonah]

Maybe we could agree ahead of time to claim REAL LIFE promos (not fake mafia promos) as Base set. That way people with Promo cards would still be accountable, but wouldn't be quite as singled out.

[Captain_Frisk]

Maybe we could agree ahead of time to claim REAL LIFE promos (not fake mafia promos) as Base set. That way people with Promo cards would still be accountable, but wouldn't be quite as singled out.

Or we through them in with another small set (alchemy / cornucopia) to provide additional cover?

[jotheonah]

YEah, that makes sense. Especially appropriate since with my (really GLooble's) IRL cards, we keep the Promos in the Cornucopia box.

[pingpongsam]

PPS and RobZ(!) haven't voted

And I won't. I agree that this voting exercise assists Mafia more than Town and actually claiming does so as well. Considering the size of the wagon on Frisk I actually think him to be possibly Town.

Describe to me the benefit to Town that Scum does not also reap in this exercise.

[Captain_Frisk]

PPS and RobZ(!) haven't voted

And I won't. I agree that this voting exercise assists Mafia more than Town and actually claiming does so as well. Considering the size of the wagon on Frisk I actually think him to be possibly Town.

Describe to me the benefit to Town that Scum does not also reap in this exercise.

Scum is forced to lie about the makeup on their hand that may be outed through the use of cardplay or future claims.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok, with 7 for, 3 maybies (moving joth here), 1 no (pps), and 1 unvoted (RobZ), it seems that we have a majority?

We treat "normal" promos as cornucopia per Joth.

Shall we discuss claim order?  I think it would be more material if we were doing more than set claiming, but this lie is pretty easy, so I don't think we need to worry.

I'll claim first.  I have a nice variety.

Base + Seaside + Cornucopia + Prosperity + Dark Ages

[jotheonah]

Mine is, it just happens, almost the same as Frisk's.

Prosperity - Dark Ages - Intrigue - Seaside - Base

[Captain_Frisk]

Another thing we have discussed.  Seating arrangements.

I know the names of the people to my left and right.  Is this something that should be known?

[Captain_Frisk]

Another thing we have discussed.  Seating arrangements.

I know the names of the people to my left and right.  Is this something that should be known?

This is an area where scum have a huge advantage over us, because they will be able to put together a much bigger piece of the puzzle than we can, but I'm not sure what value it has.

[jotheonah]

I think no. Because as it is, if I address a comment to the player on my left, about a card I'm going to play in the night, they know who they are and I do, but no one else does. So as long as these are secret information, we each have a shorthand for secretly addressing two other players, which could come in handy.

[jotheonah]

Who wants to do a post count? I feel like we have some lurkers. I have no real reads on anyone, except a mild suspicion of Frisk for all this claim talk, which, by the way unvote because I'm really not that convinced and I'm sort of in favor of no lynching anyway.

[Robz888]

Let me catch up, hold on.

[Robz888]

Oh, sorry to have fallen behind at such a critical juncture.

Yes, No, No

My sets: Base, Base, Intrigue, Intrigue, Prosperity

[Galzria]

Dark Ages - Dark Ages - Dark Ages - Hinterlands - Alchemy

And I agree that we should not share our neighbors - it gives us one more piece of information that scum does not (although their puzzle is probably more complete to start, there is little need to fill in what's missing).

[pingpongsam]

Scum is forced to lie about the makeup on their hand that may be outed through the use of cardplay or future claims.

untrue. no one is forced to lie. why would scum lie, here?

[pingpongsam]

okay, wait, i see, scum doesn't have as many cards as Town, is that right?

[Captain_Frisk]

okay, wait, i see, scum doesn't have as many cards as Town, is that right?

This is my understanding.  They have 4 normal cards from the same pool as the rest of us.... and 1 special scum card, that they will have to lie about when discussing their hand.

[Dsell]

Alright, looks like we have consensus.

I have Seaside, Seaside, Seaside, Alchemy, and Intrigue.

[Young Nick]

OK, mine are Intrigue (x2), Prosperity, Seaside (x2).

[Dsell]

Every other mafia game is going really quickly today but this one is crawling by. We need to get this claiming part of the day out of the way because we still have to get to our normal day 1 routine, which I'm sure will include another debate about lynching vs no-lynching. And we don't have tons of time folks, deadline is the day before Thanksgiving and I can't imagine (USA-dwelling) people being very available on that day.

[jotheonah]

Vote: No lunch

[pingpongsam]

While I am not opposed to Set Claiming in theory in practice I can see that my particular cards coming from certain sets are not popular sets as posted so far and could easily be deduced by a possible scum setting to my right (or left, whichever way we went).

That said, I support being above board for the purposes of identifying a liar later.

Alchemy, HinterlandsX2, Intrigue, Seaside

[cayvie]

Alchemy
Intrigue x2
Dark Ages x2

[cayvie]

after checking, it appears i was wrong about the set of one of my cards

Alchemy
Intrigue
Cornucopia
Dark Ages x2

[Archetype]

A player has requested a D1 extension, due to Thanksgiving, which I agree with.

New D1 deadline is November 24th, at 1:00 AM forum time.

[Young Nick]

after checking, it appears i was wrong about the set of one of my cards

Alchemy
Intrigue
Cornucopia
Dark Ages x2

Vote cayvie for clearly going back and making up where her fifth card came from.

[Young Nick]

Make that vote: cayvie.

[cayvie]

after checking, it appears i was wrong about the set of one of my cards

Alchemy
Intrigue
Cornucopia
Dark Ages x2

Vote cayvie for clearly going back and making up where her fifth card came from.

how does that make sense

i thought a card was from intrigue, then i posted and was like, wait, is it?

and i checked, it wasn't

[Dsell]

after checking, it appears i was wrong about the set of one of my cards

Alchemy
Intrigue
Cornucopia
Dark Ages x2

Vote cayvie for clearly going back and making up where her fifth card came from.

This seems awfully nitpicky, I actually was wrong about which set one of my cards came from, I just double-checked beforehand. Not sure that merits a vote.

[Dsell]

after checking, it appears i was wrong about the set of one of my cards

Alchemy
Intrigue
Cornucopia
Dark Ages x2

Vote cayvie for clearly going back and making up where her fifth card came from.

This seems awfully nitpicky, I actually was wrong about which set one of my cards came from, I just double-checked beforehand. Not sure that merits a vote.

To add to that, she had already listed 5 cards, if she's gonna fake one how does it make any sense to change her mind after posting? She might be scum but it would be pretty dumb to just decide to fakeclaim a different set.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ditto, i had to look up 1 of my cards.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ditto, i had to look up 1 of my cards.

I guess that reveals that one of my cards is not a signature card like King's Court... deal with it.

[ashersky]

Prosperity, Base, Alchemy, Dark Ages, Seaside

[jotheonah]

Ditto, i had to look up 1 of my cards.

I guess that reveals that one of my cards is not a signature card like King's Court... deal with it.

King's Court... Hinterlands, right?

[Dsell]

Ditto, i had to look up 1 of my cards.

I guess that reveals that one of my cards is not a signature card like King's Court... deal with it.

King's Court... Hinterlands, right?

No no I'm pretty sure it's a promo.

[Young Nick]

I had to check, too. So I checked and then posted. The only reason to do more than that is if you change your mind on what one of your cards is. Nit-picky? Yes. But scum-hunting is nit-picking by definition so take it or leave it.

[cayvie]

I had to check, too. So I checked and then posted. The only reason to do more than that is if you change your mind on what one of your cards is. Nit-picky? Yes. But scum-hunting is nit-picking by definition so take it or leave it.

wait, so your argument is

i made up what my 5th card was

i posted a list of expansions my 5 cards were from

then i decided to change what my 5th, made-up, card was

so i posted an update?

vote: young nick

this is dumb

[Young Nick]

Yup, that's it more or less.

[Dsell]

I had to check, too. So I checked and then posted. The only reason to do more than that is if you change your mind on what one of your cards is. Nit-picky? Yes. But scum-hunting is nit-picking by definition so take it or leave it.

I just don't get the feeling that cayvie is a meticulous player who carefully checks everything she does. It's an easy enough mistake to make and she just made it after posting, not before. I don't mean to defend her here because she hasn't done much to give me either a town or a scum vibe, I'm just stating that this isn't something I'd associate with scumminess. But whatever, I guess it just comes down to different philosophies of what constitutes scumminess.

[Young Nick]

I had to check, too. So I checked and then posted. The only reason to do more than that is if you change your mind on what one of your cards is. Nit-picky? Yes. But scum-hunting is nit-picking by definition so take it or leave it.

I just don't get the feeling that cayvie is a meticulous player who carefully checks everything she does. It's an easy enough mistake to make and she just made it after posting, not before. I don't mean to defend her here because she hasn't done much to give me either a town or a scum vibe, I'm just stating that this isn't something I'd associate with scumminess. But whatever, I guess it just comes down to different philosophies of what constitutes scumminess.

Fair point.

[Dsell]

@cayvie why is that a good reason to omgus-vote...?

He was jumpy but eeeeeeeeeeh.

[Eevee]

I had to check 3/5 of my cards (my initial guesses would have been wrong on 2)
Base, intrigue, prosperity, hinterlands, seaside

[Dsell]

Qvist isn't going to be around till tomorrow. Has anyone besides him not setclaimed? Can we move on to other topics while we wait for him to get back?

I know I was semi-supportive of no-lynch at first but a big part of me thinks that since this is role madness, our best-hatched plans about getting the numbers might just come to naught. It actually might work if anyone with vigilante powers makes sure not to shoot, but mafia could have vigilante powers just as easily. And the fact that we've actually been rather successful at lynching mafia on day 1 recently makes me at least want to try. It's worth having more discussion about, certainly, but I think there's a good case to be made for trying to lynch scum.

[Eevee]

I agree with Dsell. Don't think the arguments for nolynch are convincing enough.

[Robz888]

I still support Vote: No Lynch, I think.

[pingpongsam]

I support No Lynch and tend to see support for pushing a D1 lynch as scum angling for an extra kill knowing that D1 lynches have historically always hit Town.

That said, I recognize that voting No Lynch can be construed as equally scummy.

Therefore, while I support No Lynch in theory I keep a vote cast where my strongest suspicions lie.

[Dsell]

I support No Lynch and tend to see support for pushing a D1 lynch as scum angling for an extra kill knowing that D1 lynches have historically always hit Town.

That said, I recognize that voting No Lynch can be construed as equally scummy.

Therefore, while I support No Lynch in theory I keep a vote cast where my strongest suspicions lie.

The bolded part is true historically but not recently. We've been doing pretty well recently, actually.

This whole post seemed like one huge hedge, basically. I do support voting for the scummiest read, though.

[jotheonah]

I support No Lynch because it's positive for parity AND for info. And I've always hate that someone has to die so early in the game, it's sad (granted there will still be night kills)

[ashersky]

I support No Lynch because it's positive for parity AND for info. And I've always hate that someone has to die so early in the game, it's sad (granted there will still be night kills)

I'm okay with no lynch, but what do we do at night.  No town shooting, but other things?  There are some odd powers with these cards...

[jotheonah]

OK to =
investigate (if you have an investigative card in your hand, that should be top priority)
use protective roles on people you have a strong town read on
roleblock people you have a strong scum read on

not OK to =
use a vig kill, even if you really want to

[jotheonah]

1. Play Modifiers (These modify how you play your cards)
         2. Protection (Doctors, Bodyguard etc)
         3. Roleblockers/Redirectors (pretty self-explanatory...)
         4. Investigative (Watcher, Tracker, etc)
         5. Kills (Mafia and/or Vigilante/Serial Killer)
         6. Discarders (Attack other player's hands)
         7. Inspection (Cops, Hand Glancers, etc)

ok, only ones I didn't cover are play modifiers, use your judgement on those and discarders. I'm not sure we should be using those tonight.

Also, if the person to my right could indicate to me some how, subtly, breadcrumb-style, which of these 7 types of cards they plan to play tonight, perhaps in their next post, that would be a little bit helpful to me. Purely optional, of course.

[Young Nick]

DAMA (drunk AMA) for maybe 15 minutes. Act fast or lose the opportunity.

[ashersky]

DAMA (drunk AMA) for maybe 15 minutes. Act fast or lose the opportunity.

What your favorite Dominion card?

[Young Nick]

DAMA (drunk AMA) for maybe 15 minutes. Act fast or lose the opportunity.

What your favorite Dominion card?

Sorry, though I said the window would be 15 minutes, it was closer to 30 seconds. Better luck next time!

[Qvist]

I have 4x Seaside and 1x Intrigue.

[Robz888]

OK to =
investigate (if you have an investigative card in your hand, that should be top priority)
use protective roles on people you have a strong town read on
roleblock people you have a strong scum read on

not OK to =
use a vig kill, even if you really want to

Agreed.

[Eevee]

Joth is my biggest scum read atm. Something about the way he worded that post (and the content also).

[jotheonah]

I'm just always your biggest scum read aren't I? ashersky asked a question. I made an effort to answer it.

Why would mafia encourage town to use investigative roles and discourage them from vigging? THat's silly.

[Dsell]

I'm just always your biggest scum read aren't I? ashersky asked a question. I made an effort to answer it.

Why would mafia encourage town to use investigative roles and discourage them from vigging? THat's silly.

That's a bad argument because scum wants to appear townie at this stage of the game.

[jotheonah]

That may be so, but it doesn't mean that pro-town behavior can now be read as anti-town.

[Dsell]

But you asked, "Why would mafia encourage town to use investigative roles and discourage them from vigging?" So I answered. And pointed out that that's no reason to give you town points. Because it's not "silly" for mafia to do that, as you suggest.

[jotheonah]

But Eevee said the content of my post gave him a scum read. Eevee, care to explain that a little more?

[Eevee]

I'm just always your biggest scum read aren't I? ashersky asked a question. I made an effort to answer it.

Why would mafia encourage town to use investigative roles and discourage them from vigging? THat's silly.

Okay apologies, that was a stupid missclick. Joth is my biggest town read atm!

[jotheonah]

Damn straight.

[Dsell]

I'm just always your biggest scum read aren't I? ashersky asked a question. I made an effort to answer it.

Why would mafia encourage town to use investigative roles and discourage them from vigging? THat's silly.

Okay apologies, that was a stupid missclick. Joth is my biggest town read atm!

Really? Because I agreed with your first point about that one post looking weird. Seemed rolefishy.

[Eevee]

It's less strong than usual though, because here scum would know the wording of investigative and stuff whereas normally they might not. But still.

[jotheonah]

I'm just always your biggest scum read aren't I? ashersky asked a question. I made an effort to answer it.

Why would mafia encourage town to use investigative roles and discourage them from vigging? THat's silly.

Okay apologies, that was a stupid missclick. Joth is my biggest town read atm!

Really? Because I agreed with your first point about that one post looking weird. Seemed rolefishy.

Are you talking about the last bit? Basically I have a card with an effect that depends on the card the person to my right uses, and I think it might be my best Night 1 choice. So, since that person can possibly communicate to me without communicating to scum (assuming they're town) then I could use that card much more effectively. If they choose not to, fine. I'll use my second best card instead.

If that's a rolefish, it's a very weirdly specific one.

[cayvie]

oh yeah this game

rereading

[Archetype]

oh yeah this game

*sigh*

[cayvie]

gotta say i'm kinda mystified by the support for no lynch here

like, has it ever turned out well? legitimate question, does anyone have a game where day 1 no lynch worked out?

[pingpongsam]

gotta say i'm kinda mystified by the support for no lynch here

like, has it ever turned out well? legitimate question, does anyone have a game where day 1 no lynch worked out?

You know, my vote stands on you for this.

Considering that scum has a statistically likely chance of a free D1 kill by way of mislynch and that we ALL have significant night powers it stands to perfectly good reason to let us all go into night and use those powers. That we have an even parity night further bolsters this idea.

Your argument presupposes to dismiss that all these other games didn't have the specific criteria this one does. Further, I'm not even aware of a game where we have gone D1 No Lynch so your question appears to be a non sequitur.

[Captain_Frisk]

In favor of no lunging

...

Voting for Someone

[jotheonah]

Seriously though, if I get to the point where I have a strong scumread all bets are off. No reason to give up on scumhunting and fully commit to no lynch.  But because NL is a viable option, I'll have to be much more sure to vote for someone.

[Young Nick]

It seems unlikely (at least at our current posting rate) that we are going to end up lynching someone. I am not opposed to a lynch, but realistically, even with a slightly extended D1, it seems doubtful that we will reach a consensus. I know I will be V/LA from Tuesday afternoon onwards, and I expect others will be as well.

It's an unfortunate reality of a game that started so close to a holiday, but for now I'll say that I am happy to vote for a NL. If there isn't too much conversation in the next 24 hours, I'll park my vote there before my V/LA.

[Robz888]

So I actually have a mild scum read on Dsell.

It looks to me like he's really trying to be "Mr. Helpful." He's doing a fair amount of leading the town, for one thing. A couple pages back he was defending someone, I can't remember who, but I think it might have been cayvie, and it just felt fake to me.

Also, on the last page, he agreed with Eevee calling Joth his major scumread, but then Eevee clarified that he made a mistype, and Joth was actually his major townread (which I sort of agree with, fwiw). I think this might have just been unlucky for Dsell, but if someone jumps on a case that then turns out be a mistype, well, that doesn't reflect well on the jumper.

I don't know. This is far from rock solid. It's little more than a hunch I guess. But in a game where almost nothing has stood out to me, I'm definitely getting a bad vibe from exactly one player.

So, Vote: Dsell, actually.

[jotheonah]

I think Eevee's "clarification" might have been sarcastic. Actually I have no idea. Eevee, do you have a scumread on me or a townread?

Apropos of nothing, Archetype, if my PM says X is on my left and we lynch X will I get a new PM telling me who the new person on my left is?

[Eevee]

Definitely town, joth!

Vote: Dsell

[Galzria]

Vote: Morgrim for having two posts this game and making me forget he's even here. Seriously, there's lurking.... And then there's Morgrim.

Yeah, yeah. I know. Morgrim hunting.  But the lack of posts aside, he's the only one who hasn't posted his hand.

Speaking of hands:

Frisk:
Base, Seaside, Cornucopia, Prosperity, Dark Ages

Joth:
Prosperity, Dark Ages, Intrigue, Seaside, Base

Robz:
Base, Base, Intrigue, Intrigue, Prosperity

Galz:
Dark Ages, Dark Ages, Dark Ages, Hinterlands, Alchemy

Dsell:
Seaside, Seaside, Seaside, Alchemy, Intrigue

Y.Nick:
Intrigue, Intrigue, Prosperity, Seaside, Seaside

PPS:
Alchemy, Hinterlands, Hinterlands, Intrigue, Seaside

Cayvie:
Alchemy, Intrigue, Cornucopia, Dark Ages, Dark Ages

Ashersky:
Prosperity, Base, Alchemy, Dark Ages, Seaside

Eevee:
Base, Intrigue, Prosperity, Hinterlands, Seaside

Qvist:
Seaside, Seaside, Seaside, Seaside, Intrigue

Morgrim:
??, ??, ??, ??, ??

Counts:

Base: 6
Intrigue: 10
Seaside: 14
Alchemy: 5
Prosperity: 6
Cornucopia: 2
Hinterlands: 4
Dark Ages: 8

And of course 5 more somewhere for Morgrim. I wasn't sure if the count would help, but it seemed worth having here. I don't see any pattern to it myself, even if I guessed where Morgrim's cards might fall. Still, I thought having this in one place might help on future days.

Query to town: Are we pre announcing out set play each day? For example, before we go to night, should I announce which set I'll be playing from? I don't think there's a correlation between set and role, so I don't see too much harm, and it let's us match up the cards played (when released in the morning) to who was going to play from which set. It adds a level of verification to the process (I think) that will hopefully make it harder for scum to lie and mislead.

[Robz888]

Good idea, Galzria.

I will play Intrigue tonight.

[Dsell]

Also, on the last page, he agreed with Eevee calling Joth his major scumread, but then Eevee clarified that he made a mistype, and Joth was actually his major townread (which I sort of agree with, fwiw). I think this might have just been unlucky for Dsell, but if someone jumps on a case that then turns out be a mistype, well, that doesn't reflect well on the jumper.

I never called him anything like my "major scumread." I had a problem with two of his posts. I thought one of them was rolefishy (asking the person on his left or right to reveal somehow what they'd play) and another used frightfully a frightfully bad argument. Jo kinda clarified his rolefish-looking post in a way that makes some sense for this game, though I've never heard of a role like it. I stand by what I said and I'm confused by the town reads on Jo, unless it's just because Jo has said some fairly scummy stuff as town before.

I'm actually not sure what I'm going to play tonight. I hadn't thought about it and I might have to get some clarification on how my various roles work exactly. Also, is there a system of accountability? As in, will all cards played overnight be revealed in the morning? I'm fuzzy on that point. I'll tentatively say I'm going to play an Intrigue card tonight, but that's very liable to change.

[Captain_Frisk]

If the day ended right now, i would play base.

[Archetype]

Good idea, Galzria.

I will play Intrigue tonight.

I'm assuming this is just to let people know what you're doing, but when you actually play your card, PM me the card's name at night.

I think Eevee's "clarification" might have been sarcastic. Actually I have no idea. Eevee, do you have a scumread on me or a townread?

Apropos of nothing, Archetype, if my PM says X is on my left and we lynch X will I get a new PM telling me who the new person on my left is?

Yes. Let's say 'Harry' is the player to your left. The player to Harry's left is Jane. If Harry gets lynched (or NK'd, whatever it is), the player to your left would then become Jane, until she is lynched. The player circle will get smaller and smaller as people die.

Vote count coming soon.

[Eevee]

I'd play the base card too.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.1:

Dsell (2) -- Robz888, Eevee
cayvie (2) -- pingpongsam, Young Nick
Captain_Frisk (3) -- Qvist, jotheonah, ashersky
Morgrim7 (1) -- Galzria
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie

Not Voting (3) -- Dsell, Morgrim7, Captain_Frisk

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 lynch deadline is Saturday, November 24th, at 1:00 AM forum time.

[Dsell]

Are all of those votes on Frisk still from when he claimed Jester??? That was pure RVS silliness.

[Young Nick]

Are all of those votes on Frisk still from when he claimed Jester??? That was pure RVS silliness.

The game hasn't been moving fast enough to warrant people switching out of their RVS votes. I don't know which card I will be playing tonight. But I have a midterm in about 15 minutes, so I'm not going to fret about it now.

[Young Nick]

That is to say, I will post later this game-day which card I expect to play.

[jotheonah]

Good idea, Galzria.

I will play Intrigue tonight.

I'm assuming this is just to let people know what you're doing, but when you actually play your card, PM me the card's name at night.

I think Eevee's "clarification" might have been sarcastic. Actually I have no idea. Eevee, do you have a scumread on me or a townread?

Apropos of nothing, Archetype, if my PM says X is on my left and we lynch X will I get a new PM telling me who the new person on my left is?

Yes. Let's say 'Harry' is the player to your left. The player to Harry's left is Jane. If Harry gets lynched (or NK'd, whatever it is), the player to your left would then become Jane, until she is lynched. The player circle will get smaller and smaller as people die.

Vote count coming soon.

Yes, but, will I then get a PM from you that tells me Jane is the new player on my left? Will Jane get a PM telling her that I'm the new player on her right?

[jotheonah]

Are all of those votes on Frisk still from when he claimed Jester??? That was pure RVS silliness.

No, they're mostly about thoughts that his push for claiming was rolefishy.

Though I thought I unvoted. I guess it wasn't clear that "No lunch" was "no lynch"

Vote: Dsell

Something's off about him. Not playing as carefully as I'm used to with town-Dsell.

[Archetype]

Good idea, Galzria.

I will play Intrigue tonight.

I'm assuming this is just to let people know what you're doing, but when you actually play your card, PM me the card's name at night.

I think Eevee's "clarification" might have been sarcastic. Actually I have no idea. Eevee, do you have a scumread on me or a townread?

Apropos of nothing, Archetype, if my PM says X is on my left and we lynch X will I get a new PM telling me who the new person on my left is?

Yes. Let's say 'Harry' is the player to your left. The player to Harry's left is Jane. If Harry gets lynched (or NK'd, whatever it is), the player to your left would then become Jane, until she is lynched. The player circle will get smaller and smaller as people die.

Vote count coming soon.

Yes, but, will I then get a PM from you that tells me Jane is the new player on my left? Will Jane get a PM telling her that I'm the new player on her right?

Yes

[Archetype]

Though I thought I unvoted. I guess it wasn't clear that "No lunch" was "no lynch"

Oh. Knew I missed one.

[cayvie]

gotta say i'm kinda mystified by the support for no lynch here

like, has it ever turned out well? legitimate question, does anyone have a game where day 1 no lynch worked out?

You know, my vote stands on you for this.

Considering that scum has a statistically likely chance of a free D1 kill by way of mislynch and that we ALL have significant night powers it stands to perfectly good reason to let us all go into night and use those powers. That we have an even parity night further bolsters this idea.

Your argument presupposes to dismiss that all these other games didn't have the specific criteria this one does. Further, I'm not even aware of a game where we have gone D1 No Lynch so your question appears to be a non sequitur.

try mafia XIII

also, mafia happens on other sites as well

but this isn't really so much me arguing against no lynch as legitimately not understanding what makes it such a good idea here, as opposed to other role madness type games.

like, the value of a flip is still really good.

i'd probably use Dark Ages if the game ended now.

[Galzria]

I will be playing Dark Ages myself.

[Robz888]

Are all of those votes on Frisk still from when he claimed Jester??? That was pure RVS silliness.

No, they're mostly about thoughts that his push for claiming was rolefishy.

Though I thought I unvoted. I guess it wasn't clear that "No lunch" was "no lynch"

Vote: Dsell

Something's off about him. Not playing as carefully as I'm used to with town-Dsell.

I think he's being very question-y. Kind of a nervous driver of conversation.

I'm openly in favor of the Dsell lynch, if we might as well lynch someone.

[cayvie]

i'm still weirded out by young nick's vote on me

ok i kinda get the vote, but his explanation was total bs

[Dsell]

Are all of those votes on Frisk still from when he claimed Jester??? That was pure RVS silliness.

No, they're mostly about thoughts that his push for claiming was rolefishy.

Though I thought I unvoted. I guess it wasn't clear that "No lunch" was "no lynch"

Vote: Dsell

Something's off about him. Not playing as carefully as I'm used to with town-Dsell.

I think he's being very question-y. Kind of a nervous driver of conversation.

I'm openly in favor of the Dsell lynch, if we might as well lynch someone.

This all seems very nebulous against me. I've tried to make conversation happen, yes, but I'm not nervous, nor do I know what makes me look this way. I'm not feeling as 100% invested in this game as some of my others recently, but I'd still like to contribute and this'll probably be exciting down the road (which always makes me want to get really involved).

[Robz888]

Oh, it's extremely nebulous.

[Dsell]

Oh, it's extremely nebulous.

Awesome.

[pingpongsam]

To Dsell/Frisk:

You call it hedging, I call it participating.

[ashersky]

Vote: Dsell

I'll play an Alchemy card.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.2:

Dsell (4) -- Robz888, Eevee, ashersky, jotheonah {L-3}
cayvie (2) -- pingpongsam, Young Nick,
Captain_Frisk (1) -- Qvist,
Morgrim7 (1) -- Galzria
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie

Not Voting (3) -- Dsell, Morgrim7, Captain_Frisk

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 lynch deadline is Saturday, November 24th, at 1:00 AM forum time.

[Captain_Frisk]

What is the Dsell case?

[Eevee]

So I actually have a mild scum read on Dsell.

It looks to me like he's really trying to be "Mr. Helpful." He's doing a fair amount of leading the town, for one thing. A couple pages back he was defending someone, I can't remember who, but I think it might have been cayvie, and it just felt fake to me.

Also, on the last page, he agreed with Eevee calling Joth his major scumread, but then Eevee clarified that he made a mistype, and Joth was actually his major townread (which I sort of agree with, fwiw). I think this might have just been unlucky for Dsell, but if someone jumps on a case that then turns out be a mistype, well, that doesn't reflect well on the jumper.

I don't know. This is far from rock solid. It's little more than a hunch I guess. But in a game where almost nothing has stood out to me, I'm definitely getting a bad vibe from exactly one player.

So, Vote: Dsell, actually.

[Captain_Frisk]

Is this why Asher is voting him?

[Captain_Frisk]

And thx for not making me iPhone hunt

[Eevee]

Is this why Asher is voting him?

Can only speak for myself.

Btw, when I say joth is a "major" town read, I mean "major" in the context of this game. It's not actually objectively that major, all my other reads here are just so nonexistent it looks major in comparison.

[ashersky]

Is this why Asher is voting him?

Yes, the mistaken sheeping especially.

[Dsell]

Is this why Asher is voting him?

Yes, the mistaken sheeping especially.

There is a huge gulf between sheeping and agreeing. I am still baffled by where this town vibe Eevee's getting is coming from!

[Galzria]

Is this why Asher is voting him?

Yes, the mistaken sheeping especially.

There is a huge gulf between sheeping and agreeing. I am still baffled by where this town vibe Eevee's getting is coming from!

Why do you take such issue with it? Do you think Eevee is scum calling his scummate townie?

[Dsell]

Is this why Asher is voting him?

Yes, the mistaken sheeping especially.

There is a huge gulf between sheeping and agreeing. I am still baffled by where this town vibe Eevee's getting is coming from!

Why do you take such issue with it? Do you think Eevee is scum calling his scummate townie?

I don't take issue but it does confuse me. It's also the single thing that's getting me in hot water here and it keeps coming up. I just happened to agree with Eevee's first statement a lot more than his corrected one, at least based on recent posts from Jo.

[jotheonah]

Also, on the last page, he agreed with Eevee calling Joth his major scumread, but then Eevee clarified that he made a mistype, and Joth was actually his major townread (which I sort of agree with, fwiw). I think this might have just been unlucky for Dsell, but if someone jumps on a case that then turns out be a mistype, well, that doesn't reflect well on the jumper.

Are all of those votes on Frisk still from when he claimed Jester??? That was pure RVS silliness.

No, they're mostly about thoughts that his push for claiming was rolefishy.

So this is two examples in a row of Dsell not really knowing what's going on and posting anyway. Which stood out to me. Is it a scum tell? Hard to say. I tend to pay more attention as scum (I've been scum all of once).

Also, as to the second quote, wanting to know why votes are on someone when it's not apparent is a very scum thing. Town wants to know the case so that if it's good they can join it. Scum wants to know the case on a partner so that if it's bad they can shut it down. Look at the way Dsell words that question. "Whoa, all these votes on Frisk, that's so silly, get them off now."

Add to that, of course, the fact that his assessment of said votes is not only erroneous, but obviously so.

That means if I'm right and Dsell is scum, Frisk is a likely partner.

I will be playing Base tonight, although if we lynch Dsell and he flips scum I'll be sorely tempted to play Prosperity instead.

[Captain_Frisk]

Also, on the last page, he agreed with Eevee calling Joth his major scumread, but then Eevee clarified that he made a mistype, and Joth was actually his major townread (which I sort of agree with, fwiw). I think this might have just been unlucky for Dsell, but if someone jumps on a case that then turns out be a mistype, well, that doesn't reflect well on the jumper.

Are all of those votes on Frisk still from when he claimed Jester??? That was pure RVS silliness.

No, they're mostly about thoughts that his push for claiming was rolefishy.

So this is two examples in a row of Dsell not really knowing what's going on and posting anyway. Which stood out to me. Is it a scum tell? Hard to say. I tend to pay more attention as scum (I've been scum all of once).

Also, as to the second quote, wanting to know why votes are on someone when it's not apparent is a very scum thing. Town wants to know the case so that if it's good they can join it. Scum wants to know the case on a partner so that if it's bad they can shut it down. Look at the way Dsell words that question. "Whoa, all these votes on Frisk, that's so silly, get them off now."

Add to that, of course, the fact that his assessment of said votes is not only erroneous, but obviously so.

That means if I'm right and Dsell is scum, Frisk is a likely partner.

I will be playing Base tonight, although if we lynch Dsell and he flips scum I'll be sorely tempted to play Prosperity instead.

I can't speak for DSell, but I wanted to know the case because I saw that there were alot of votes, and I saw asher jumping on him with no justification.

[Dsell]

K guys...you KNOW how I play as scum because I've drawn scum a lot. I tend to be a pretty careful player and that's doubly true as scum. Well, at the beginning of this game there was another game going on that was more important than day 1 here. I might be guilty of not paying enough attention to this game, but I'm not guilty of being mafia.

I really like Role Madness games and I think I'm pretty valuable when it comes to piecing together the logic puzzle towards the end of the game. It would suck bad to be lynched day one, especially if it's because of a crap case like this. I will pay closer attention to this game from now on because this behavior is getting me in trouble. However, if I could point to my play in two other Role Madness games (RMM3 and BMV), I think you'd see that the start of day one is just not my thing. I lay back (and usually don't follow really closely, tbh) until there's enough info to get some decent reads from. In both of those games, I ended up building cases on scum later in the day. Here, though, not much has been happening. Those other games were really active, so others were giving me the info I needed to build a case. But without much happening here, I've felt compelled to try to generate some discussion, even though I haven't been following the game as closely as I should have. I'm sorry that I haven't yet given this game the thought requisite to strong play, and I will be sure I'm up to speed before posting from now on. But don't lynch me for this day one.

[Robz888]

K guys...you KNOW how I play as scum because I've drawn scum a lot. I tend to be a pretty careful player and that's doubly true as scum. Well, at the beginning of this game there was another game going on that was more important than day 1 here. I might be guilty of not paying enough attention to this game, but I'm not guilty of being mafia.

I really like Role Madness games and I think I'm pretty valuable when it comes to piecing together the logic puzzle towards the end of the game. It would suck bad to be lynched day one, especially if it's because of a crap case like this. I will pay closer attention to this game from now on because this behavior is getting me in trouble. However, if I could point to my play in two other Role Madness games (RMM3 and BMV), I think you'd see that the start of day one is just not my thing. I lay back (and usually don't follow really closely, tbh) until there's enough info to get some decent reads from. In both of those games, I ended up building cases on scum later in the day. Here, though, not much has been happening. Those other games were really active, so others were giving me the info I needed to build a case. But without much happening here, I've felt compelled to try to generate some discussion, even though I haven't been following the game as closely as I should have. I'm sorry that I haven't yet given this game the thought requisite to strong play, and I will be sure I'm up to speed before posting from now on. But don't lynch me for this day one.

But see, I actually think you've been more active here, and more talkative, than virtually anyone else. And I ask myself, why is that, you know? You're generally a mid-level activity person, in my book. Here, you've kinda been the leader.

[Dsell]

I think I explained that, clearly. There's usually plenty of other activity that I don't need to be the leader. Here, we have just 12 pages a couple days from the deadline (and the original deadline was earlier!). That's hardly enough info to get good reads. I'm trying to create discussion because a lot of the typical discussion leaders just aren't. I think the setclaim, while probably a fine pursuit for scumhunting on later days, has really slowed us down today. Nothing is happening, and how are we supposed to develop reads when nothing is happening? So I try to make things happen and foster discussion. I'm apparently not cut out for it.

[Robz888]

I think I explained that, clearly. There's usually plenty of other activity that I don't need to be the leader. Here, we have just 12 pages a couple days from the deadline (and the original deadline was earlier!). That's hardly enough info to get good reads. I'm trying to create discussion because a lot of the typical discussion leaders just aren't. I think the setclaim, while probably a fine pursuit for scumhunting on later days, has really slowed us down today. Nothing is happening, and how are we supposed to develop reads when nothing is happening? So I try to make things happen and foster discussion. I'm apparently not cut out for it.

But the fact that you are trying, while nobody else is, is what makes me sort of suspicious.

[Robz888]

By the way, this is the worst case I've ever made against anyone, ever.

[Galzria]

I think I explained that, clearly. There's usually plenty of other activity that I don't need to be the leader. Here, we have just 12 pages a couple days from the deadline (and the original deadline was earlier!). That's hardly enough info to get good reads. I'm trying to create discussion because a lot of the typical discussion leaders just aren't. I think the setclaim, while probably a fine pursuit for scumhunting on later days, has really slowed us down today. Nothing is happening, and how are we supposed to develop reads when nothing is happening? So I try to make things happen and foster discussion. I'm apparently not cut out for it.

But the fact that you are trying, while nobody else is, is what makes me sort of suspicious.

I take issue with the bolded section. I actually think both Frisk and I have been doing so, albeit in different fashions. I feel I'm offering theory's and points of discussion while Frisk is fishing.

[Dsell]

I think I explained that, clearly. There's usually plenty of other activity that I don't need to be the leader. Here, we have just 12 pages a couple days from the deadline (and the original deadline was earlier!). That's hardly enough info to get good reads. I'm trying to create discussion because a lot of the typical discussion leaders just aren't. I think the setclaim, while probably a fine pursuit for scumhunting on later days, has really slowed us down today. Nothing is happening, and how are we supposed to develop reads when nothing is happening? So I try to make things happen and foster discussion. I'm apparently not cut out for it.

But the fact that you are trying, while nobody else is, is what makes me sort of suspicious.

This logic seems incredibly backwards. Lurking through the game is what lost hydra mafia for the town (and probably has lost town other games). And I was totally guilty of it day 1 in hydra because if everyone else is lurking, I could totally get away with it! And it was great for the mafia. If, by trying to create discussion, I succeed in creating discussion, how is that bad? If no one else is trying, should I match their apathy? When I'm town, I like my games to be active, and if it takes me trying to get others to talk, I will.

[Dsell]

By the way, this is the worst case I've ever made against anyone, ever.

DoMafia I: Leave your logic at the door!

[Robz888]

I think I explained that, clearly. There's usually plenty of other activity that I don't need to be the leader. Here, we have just 12 pages a couple days from the deadline (and the original deadline was earlier!). That's hardly enough info to get good reads. I'm trying to create discussion because a lot of the typical discussion leaders just aren't. I think the setclaim, while probably a fine pursuit for scumhunting on later days, has really slowed us down today. Nothing is happening, and how are we supposed to develop reads when nothing is happening? So I try to make things happen and foster discussion. I'm apparently not cut out for it.

But the fact that you are trying, while nobody else is, is what makes me sort of suspicious.

This logic seems incredibly backwards. Lurking through the game is what lost hydra mafia for the town (and probably has lost town other games). And I was totally guilty of it day 1 in hydra because if everyone else is lurking, I could totally get away with it! And it was great for the mafia. If, by trying to create discussion, I succeed in creating discussion, how is that bad? If no one else is trying, should I match their apathy? When I'm town, I like my games to be active, and if it takes me trying to get others to talk, I will.

Well, sure, you're exactly right. I've just got this hunch, man.

[Captain_Frisk]

I think I explained that, clearly. There's usually plenty of other activity that I don't need to be the leader. Here, we have just 12 pages a couple days from the deadline (and the original deadline was earlier!). That's hardly enough info to get good reads. I'm trying to create discussion because a lot of the typical discussion leaders just aren't. I think the setclaim, while probably a fine pursuit for scumhunting on later days, has really slowed us down today. Nothing is happening, and how are we supposed to develop reads when nothing is happening? So I try to make things happen and foster discussion. I'm apparently not cut out for it.

But the fact that you are trying, while nobody else is, is what makes me sort of suspicious.

I take issue with the bolded section. I actually think both Frisk and I have been doing so, albeit in different fashions. I feel I'm offering theory's and points of discussion while Frisk is fishing.

Clearly.

[Robz888]

By the way, this is the worst case I've ever made against anyone, ever.

DoMafia I: Leave your logic at the door!

Yeah, I'd be pretty angry with me, if I was you.

All ready to lynch Dsell, now?

[jotheonah]

I think I explained that, clearly. There's usually plenty of other activity that I don't need to be the leader. Here, we have just 12 pages a couple days from the deadline (and the original deadline was earlier!). That's hardly enough info to get good reads. I'm trying to create discussion because a lot of the typical discussion leaders just aren't. I think the setclaim, while probably a fine pursuit for scumhunting on later days, has really slowed us down today. Nothing is happening, and how are we supposed to develop reads when nothing is happening? So I try to make things happen and foster discussion. I'm apparently not cut out for it.

But the fact that you are trying, while nobody else is, is what makes me sort of suspicious.

This logic seems incredibly backwards. Lurking through the game is what lost hydra mafia for the town (and probably has lost town other games). And I was totally guilty of it day 1 in hydra because if everyone else is lurking, I could totally get away with it! And it was great for the mafia. If, by trying to create discussion, I succeed in creating discussion, how is that bad? If no one else is trying, should I match their apathy? When I'm town, I like my games to be active, and if it takes me trying to get others to talk, I will.

The thing is, if you drive the discussion, you get to decide where it's going. And more importantly, where it's not going.

[Galzria]

By the way, this is the worst case I've ever made against anyone, ever.

DoMafia I: Leave your logic at the door!

Yeah, I'd be pretty angry with me, if I was you.

All ready to lynch Dsell, now?

We could lynch you instead. Would that work?

[Dsell]

Should I remind people that Robz is terrible at reading me? In MIII he was sure I was mafia (was town) and in MIV, for most of the game, he thought I was town (mafia).

@Jo, that is such a generic statement that could be applied to absolutely anyone who's ever driven discussion in a game of mafia ever. Care to give me some specifics about where I've steered the conversation away from? And don't say I tried to take heat off of Frisk because 1) I seriously thought it was because of that RVS, and 2) I hardly see how making an exclamatory post filled with excessive punctuation is really steering the conversation away from his lynch.

[Robz888]

Should I remind people that Robz is terrible at reading me? In MIII he was sure I was mafia (was town) and in MIV, for most of the game, he thought I was town (mafia).

Ehh... I'm not really making an argument against you specific to your meta, though. And that was a long time ago.

[Dsell]

By the way, this is the worst case I've ever made against anyone, ever.

DoMafia I: Leave your logic at the door!

Yeah, I'd be pretty angry with me, if I was you.

All ready to lynch Dsell, now?

We could lynch you instead. Would that work?

I'm pretty sure Robz has used up all of his strong, pro-town personas and is now trying on the new-agey Robz costume.

[Dsell]

Should I remind people that Robz is terrible at reading me? In MIII he was sure I was mafia (was town) and in MIV, for most of the game, he thought I was town (mafia).

Ehh... I'm not really making an argument against you specific to your meta, though. And that was a long time ago.

I don't believe I was saying you were. I didn't have a meta back then, those were my first and second games. You're just bad at reading me. Your arguments might be better if you WERE using my meta.

[jotheonah]

Should I remind people that Robz is terrible at reading me? In MIII he was sure I was mafia (was town) and in MIV, for most of the game, he thought I was town (mafia).

@Jo, that is such a generic statement that could be applied to absolutely anyone who's ever driven discussion in a game of mafia ever. Care to give me some specifics about where I've steered the conversation away from? And don't say I tried to take heat off of Frisk because 1) I seriously thought it was because of that RVS, and 2) I hardly see how making an exclamatory post filled with excessive punctuation is really steering the conversation away from his lynch.

That was more a critique of your argument (Why wouldn't I be laying low?) than an accusation per se. Worth mentioning: you've managed to take quite a bit of heat off Frisk, albeit by taking on to yourself.

Next time I'm not at work, I want to look back and see if you have been subtly steering the discussion elsewhere. Will certainly be enlightening.

[Robz888]

By the way, this is the worst case I've ever made against anyone, ever.

DoMafia I: Leave your logic at the door!

Yeah, I'd be pretty angry with me, if I was you.

All ready to lynch Dsell, now?

We could lynch you instead. Would that work?

I'm pretty sure Robz has used up all of his strong, pro-town personas and is now trying on the new-agey Robz costume.

"Pro-town" is just a social construct. You'll see, once we've all been reincarnated into cats.

[Dsell]

By the way, this is the worst case I've ever made against anyone, ever.

DoMafia I: Leave your logic at the door!

Yeah, I'd be pretty angry with me, if I was you.

All ready to lynch Dsell, now?

We could lynch you instead. Would that work?

I'm pretty sure Robz has used up all of his strong, pro-town personas and is now trying on the new-agey Robz costume.

"Pro-town" is just a social construct. You'll see, once we've all been reincarnated into cats.

Shhh! Sign-ups haven't opened for my bastard game yet!

[Galzria]

Dsell, to be honest, I didn't at all find the original case on you all that compelling. I'm rather surprised it gained steam so quickly and easily.

However you're making a TON of self-meta arguments, which of course always read scummy trying to point to "But I'm not like this as scum". Working for you here though, is that I probably do this FAR more than any other player, and I'm almost always town when I do. Doesn't ever save me from suspicion, and I often get lynched over it, but still. Doesn't read well in general, weather you're town OR scum.

[Dsell]

@Galz, I'm just not even sure what I'm defending myself against. This wagon has formed and grown inexplicably and so fast. If there were specific arguments I'd be happy to address them, but as it is all I feel like it's all I can say. I've never really made these arguments much before. I'm starting to marvel at how you're able to navigate suspicion and ever stay alive till the end! XD

[Eevee]

I know in voting Dsell, but to be fair the case against him is such that he cant really defend himself any other way.

[Dsell]

I know in voting Dsell, but to be fair the case against him is such that he cant really defend himself any other way.

Would you say you are sheeping Robz?

[Eevee]

I know in voting Dsell, but to be fair the case against him is such that he cant really defend himself any other way.

Would you say you are sheeping Robz?

At least partially, for sure. Agreeing with his analysis is maybe more accurate.

[Galzria]

@Galz, I'm just not even sure what I'm defending myself against. This wagon has formed and grown inexplicably and so fast. If there were specific arguments I'd be happy to address them, but as it is all I feel like it's all I can say. I've never really made these arguments much before. I'm starting to marvel at how you're able to navigate suspicion and ever stay alive till the end! XD

It's easy. Choose wrong in lylo enough and scum never want to see you dead!

[Dsell]

@Galz, I'm just not even sure what I'm defending myself against. This wagon has formed and grown inexplicably and so fast. If there were specific arguments I'd be happy to address them, but as it is all I feel like it's all I can say. I've never really made these arguments much before. I'm starting to marvel at how you're able to navigate suspicion and ever stay alive till the end! XD

It's easy. Choose wrong in lylo enough and scum never want to see you dead!

I am simultaneously thrilled and frustrated by this statement.

[cayvie]

Dsell, to be honest, I didn't at all find the original case on you all that compelling. I'm rather surprised it gained steam so quickly and easily.

However you're making a TON of self-meta arguments, which of course always read scummy trying to point to "But I'm not like this as scum". Working for you here though, is that I probably do this FAR more than any other player, and I'm almost always town when I do. Doesn't ever save me from suspicion, and I often get lynched over it, but still. Doesn't read well in general, weather you're town OR scum.

hmmmm

galz-dsell scumteam?

this reads like coaching to me

[Robz888]

Dsell, to be honest, I didn't at all find the original case on you all that compelling. I'm rather surprised it gained steam so quickly and easily.

However you're making a TON of self-meta arguments, which of course always read scummy trying to point to "But I'm not like this as scum". Working for you here though, is that I probably do this FAR more than any other player, and I'm almost always town when I do. Doesn't ever save me from suspicion, and I often get lynched over it, but still. Doesn't read well in general, weather you're town OR scum.

hmmmm

galz-dsell scumteam?

this reads like coaching to me

Yeah, I good see it. Not for sure, but I could see it.

I think there is an informational benefit to a Dsell lynch too, at this point. If Dsell flips town, let's take a look at who got on the wagon real easy like. If he flips scum, let's quick lynch everybody who defended him even slightly.

[Robz888]

Yeah I COULD** see it.

[Dsell]

I know in voting Dsell, but to be fair the case against him is such that he cant really defend himself any other way.

Would you say you are sheeping Robz?

At least partially, for sure. Agreeing with his analysis is maybe more accurate.

Ok. And this is the main post that you're agreeing based on?

So I actually have a mild scum read on Dsell.

It looks to me like he's really trying to be "Mr. Helpful." He's doing a fair amount of leading the town, for one thing. A couple pages back he was defending someone, I can't remember who, but I think it might have been cayvie, and it just felt fake to me.

Also, on the last page, he agreed with Eevee calling Joth his major scumread, but then Eevee clarified that he made a mistype, and Joth was actually his major townread (which I sort of agree with, fwiw). I think this might have just been unlucky for Dsell, but if someone jumps on a case that then turns out be a mistype, well, that doesn't reflect well on the jumper.

I don't know. This is far from rock solid. It's little more than a hunch I guess. But in a game where almost nothing has stood out to me, I'm definitely getting a bad vibe from exactly one player.

So, Vote: Dsell, actually.

So leading the town. I addressed that here:

I think I explained that, clearly. There's usually plenty of other activity that I don't need to be the leader. Here, we have just 12 pages a couple days from the deadline (and the original deadline was earlier!). That's hardly enough info to get good reads. I'm trying to create discussion because a lot of the typical discussion leaders just aren't. I think the setclaim, while probably a fine pursuit for scumhunting on later days, has really slowed us down today. Nothing is happening, and how are we supposed to develop reads when nothing is happening? So I try to make things happen and foster discussion. I'm apparently not cut out for it.

And also a bit more in another post. I addressed the "Jo is my major scumread" argument here:

I never called him anything like my "major scumread." I had a problem with two of his posts. I thought one of them was rolefishy (asking the person on his left or right to reveal somehow what they'd play) and another used frightfully a frightfully bad argument. Jo kinda clarified his rolefish-looking post in a way that makes some sense for this game, though I've never heard of a role like it. I stand by what I said and I'm confused by the town reads on Jo, unless it's just because Jo has said some fairly scummy stuff as town before.

That post is a little outdated now; I find him scummy for more than just that. His insistence on my case despite how bad it is contributes to his scumminess now.

And that is literally all the content there is to the case. And Robz completely knows this:

Oh, it's extremely nebulous.

By the way, this is the worst case I've ever made against anyone, ever.

Well, sure, you're exactly right. I've just got this hunch, man.

He's distancing himself from my mislynch so much. I'm actually finding it tough to find him scummy for making this case...it's SO bad...but I don't see how people are following this and buying into it. So everyone who is agreeing with this non-case looks bad to me. It's not even analysis. He's finding me scummy for being more active than usual (but it's not a meta argument...) when I'm just trying to get this town to talk.

Well, we're talking but we are going completely in the wrong direction.

[Eevee]

Your insistence on defending yourself does read towny to me.. big posts with a lot of quotes always do though. :/ I don't know, I'm not so hot on a nolynch and we have no alternative wagons. I probably shouldn't contribute to your lynch though so that I can suspect myself tomorrow after you've flipped town.. Dunno! My reads are so nonexistent here. So so nonexistent. Your recent behavior does seem towny, but I'm told you know how to appear towny as scum too.

[Robz888]

Your insistence on defending yourself does read towny to me.. big posts with a lot of quotes always do though. :/ I don't know, I'm not so hot on a nolynch and we have no alternative wagons. I probably shouldn't contribute to your lynch though so that I can suspect myself tomorrow after you've flipped town.. Dunno! My reads are so nonexistent here. So so nonexistent. Your recent behavior does seem towny, but I'm told you know how to appear towny as scum too.

Bwaahh?

[Dsell]

Dsell, to be honest, I didn't at all find the original case on you all that compelling. I'm rather surprised it gained steam so quickly and easily.

However you're making a TON of self-meta arguments, which of course always read scummy trying to point to "But I'm not like this as scum". Working for you here though, is that I probably do this FAR more than any other player, and I'm almost always town when I do. Doesn't ever save me from suspicion, and I often get lynched over it, but still. Doesn't read well in general, weather you're town OR scum.

hmmmm

galz-dsell scumteam?

this reads like coaching to me

What. Ok, let's pretend that there was a Galz-Dsell scumteam. Galz, the quintessential town leader, decides to have his scummate, Dsell, (who usually is a medium poster) lead the town. And when Dsell gets himself in a little trouble, Galz does some coaching to help Dsell (who's a total noob at playing scum) out. We are doing all this instead of playing how we often do as scum, even though these tactics have both won us multiple games as scum. Yeah that's probably what's going on here.

Cayvie, I hope you are being sarcastic because I thought your BS sensor was better than this.

[Galzria]

I'll say this:

If Cayvie and/or Robz are town, they are going up for awards this year as "worst town play in a Mafia game". They're honestly sitting there thinking that the two most active players in this thread - the two that, without whom this thread would be going nowhere, are sitting there openly coaching each other as scum buddies about how not to appear too suspicious.

A) Do you know what crappy scum play that would be? I'm honestly completely insulted that you think that I, as scum, would give a damn about my scummate on D1 - or that I would care SO much about protecting him that I would go out of my way to "coach" him on not getting himself lynched.

B) Absolutely classic reason why scum so very, very rarely get lynched D1 on f.DS - Because they can just sit back and not say a damn thing, not lead the town, or offer thoughts or suggestions, and for those that DO speak up - OH MAI GOD THEY SO SCUMMY!

C) You're both ridiculous. I can't speak for Dsell's alignment, but honestly the case on him is complete crap - and I'm highly suspect of those who 1) Made it, and 2) Sheeped it.

D) See points A-C, and welcome yourself to confirmation bias.

[Dsell]

Your insistence on defending yourself does read towny to me.. big posts with a lot of quotes always do though. :/ I don't know, I'm not so hot on a nolynch and we have no alternative wagons. I probably shouldn't contribute to your lynch though so that I can suspect myself tomorrow after you've flipped town.. Dunno! My reads are so nonexistent here. So so nonexistent. Your recent behavior does seem towny, but I'm told you know how to appear towny as scum too.

This is THE reason that I was trying to make discussion happen. But PLEASE do not settle for a bad lynch that you know is bad.

[Eevee]

Your insistence on defending yourself does read towny to me.. big posts with a lot of quotes always do though. :/ I don't know, I'm not so hot on a nolynch and we have no alternative wagons. I probably shouldn't contribute to your lynch though so that I can suspect myself tomorrow after you've flipped town.. Dunno! My reads are so nonexistent here. So so nonexistent. Your recent behavior does seem towny, but I'm told you know how to appear towny as scum too.

Bwaahh?

As I said, Dsell's defenses read towny to me. However, the alternative seems to be nolynch. But, the benefits of a lynch I'm not so hot about compared to a nolynch are in the information from the wagon. Well, if other people keep their vote on Dsell "for informational lynches / to make a lynch happen" which would describe my feelings about it pretty accurately, there isn't really much information at all on the lynch. So, meh.

[Eevee]

Unvote I guess.

[Robz888]

I'll say this:

If Cayvie and/or Robz are town, they are going up for awards this year as "worst town play in a Mafia game". They're honestly sitting there thinking that the two most active players in this thread - the two that, without whom this thread would be going nowhere, are sitting there openly coaching each other as scum buddies about how not to appear too suspicious.

A) Do you know what crappy scum play that would be? I'm honestly completely insulted that you think that I, as scum, would give a damn about my scummate on D1 - or that I would care SO much about protecting him that I would go out of my way to "coach" him on not getting himself lynched.

B) Absolutely classic reason why scum so very, very rarely get lynched D1 on f.DS - Because they can just sit back and not say a damn thing, not lead the town, or offer thoughts or suggestions, and for those that DO speak up - OH MAI GOD THEY SO SCUMMY!

C) You're both ridiculous. I can't speak for Dsell's alignment, but honestly the case on him is complete crap - and I'm highly suspect of those who 1) Made it, and 2) Sheeped it.

D) See points A-C, and welcome yourself to confirmation bias.

The only award I was after was "Worst Case Made Against a Player That Does Not Result in the Case-Maker Getting Suspected". But your OMGUS ruined that. Thanks.

[Dsell]

So we have the worst case ever made, and a lot of people jumped on board, either with thin reasoning or no reasoning.

I'd be willing to vote for: Cayvie, Jotheonah, Ashersky, and maybe Eevee.

[jotheonah]

Robz, I know you like to mix your play up purely for the sake of mixing your play up. And I know you're probably running out of new approaches after all these games. But I'm not going to give you a free pass for self-aware badness. If you think your case is bad, don't make it.

I happen to think my case on Dsell is pretty decent. I can't remember ever having a scumread on Dsell before, and now I do. That must mean something.

[jotheonah]

Archetype, MOAR setup questions: Does the scum who makes the kill also play a card?

[Archetype]

Archetype, MOAR setup questions: Does the scum who makes the kill also play a card?

Yes.

[Robz888]

Robz, I know you like to mix your play up purely for the sake of mixing your play up. And I know you're probably running out of new approaches after all these games. But I'm not going to give you a free pass for self-aware badness. If you think your case is bad, don't make it.

I happen to think my case on Dsell is pretty decent. I can't remember ever having a scumread on Dsell before, and now I do. That must mean something.

I think it's poorly-supported, impossible to argue against (which is not actually a good thing), and punishes one of the most productive people currently in the game.

But it's still better than no case, and I'm standing behind it.

[jotheonah]

Idk about you, RObz, but I said earlier that I would support No Lynch unless I had a rock solid scum read. And nobody can call this a rock solid scumread. So why not go back to no lynch?

[Dsell]

I'd also be willing to lynch Morgrim, who has a total of 2 in-game posts.

[Robz888]

Both of those are also okay ideas. I don't know.

[Robz888]

BUT, if we lynch Dsell... I will have a better idea of how to use my cards. I assume the same is true for the rest of you.

[Eevee]

Vote: morgrim7

[Galzria]

BUT, if we lynch Dsell... I will have a better idea of how to use my cards. I assume the same is true for the rest of you.

I already know how I'm using my cards, personally - as I've already made clear - I'll be playing a DA card.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.3:

Dsell (3) -- Robz888, ashersky, jotheonah
cayvie (2) -- pingpongsam, Young Nick,
Captain_Frisk (1) -- Qvist,
Morgrim7 (2) -- Galzria, Eevee
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie

Not Voting (3) -- Dsell, Morgrim7, Captain_Frisk

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 lynch deadline is Saturday, November 24th, at 1:00 AM forum time.

[jotheonah]

BUT, if we lynch Dsell... I will have a better idea of how to use my cards. I assume the same is true for the rest of you.

I have a card for every occasion.

[Eevee]

I'll play the same card whatever happens today.

[Dsell]

Morgrim said that his bastard game was on hold until after Thanksgiving, so Morgrim might be back one day before the deadline, on Friday. So we probably shouldn't lynch him before that, but I am very very ok with lynching lurking Morgrim.

Vote: Morgrim

[Young Nick]

I think there is an informational benefit to a Dsell lynch too, at this point. If Dsell flips town, let's take a look at who got on the wagon real easy like. If he flips scum, let's quick lynch everybody who defended him even slightly.

This...this doesn't work too well. To me, it started off of a miss-post, and Eevee's (I think it was Eevee's) correction looked quite sarcastic. This lynch isn't one built on strong reads, but of people grossly overreacting. And that is why people have been distancing themselves from their votes on Dsell, because no one (except ashersky, I guess) care enough about lynching Dsell to take the associated heat if he turns up town.

The hedging made ("This is the crappiest case I've ever made") will make it quite difficult to actually lynch the voters, as they will refer to it.

And people who defended him getting quick-lynched? When the case on him is so petty? That's even worse than my vote on Cayvie.

I am most suspicious of Robz for his hedging and this post, but for now I will go for Vote: No Lynch.

[Robz888]

@Young Nick, my comments have been of the tongue-in-cheek variety.

[cayvie]

What. Ok, let's pretend that there was a Galz-Dsell scumteam. Galz, the quintessential town leader, decides to have his scummate, Dsell, (who usually is a medium poster) lead the town. And when Dsell gets himself in a little trouble, Galz does some coaching to help Dsell (who's a total noob at playing scum) out. We are doing all this instead of playing how we often do as scum, even though these tactics have both won us multiple games as scum. Yeah that's probably what's going on here.

Cayvie, I hope you are being sarcastic because I thought your BS sensor was better than this.

do scum plan their d1 play that much?

i know we didn't when i was mafia in BM5

[Dsell]

What. Ok, let's pretend that there was a Galz-Dsell scumteam. Galz, the quintessential town leader, decides to have his scummate, Dsell, (who usually is a medium poster) lead the town. And when Dsell gets himself in a little trouble, Galz does some coaching to help Dsell (who's a total noob at playing scum) out. We are doing all this instead of playing how we often do as scum, even though these tactics have both won us multiple games as scum. Yeah that's probably what's going on here.

Cayvie, I hope you are being sarcastic because I thought your BS sensor was better than this.

do scum plan their d1 play that much?

i know we didn't when i was mafia in BM5

I don't think I've ever planned D1 play as scum, maybe a tiny bit in RMM1 but mostly no. I'm just saying that your suggestion that that was coaching is pretty preposterous. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that "coaching" is almost never a scumtell unless you're dealing with a seriously new mafia player in a really weird situation, and honestly probably not even then. I'm not new, Galz isn't new, I'd wager we'd both bus pretty hard on D1 if there was good reason to.

[Young Nick]

Yeah honestly they would just wait to talk in their QT at night. Such blatant coaching seems preposterous to me.

Y'all know I am usually good for some D(runk) AMA's, lets see how a S(hroomed)AMA works out.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.4:

Dsell (3) -- Robz888, ashersky, jotheonah
cayvie (1) -- pingpongsam
Captain_Frisk (1) -- Qvist,
Morgrim7 (3) -- Galzria, Eevee, Dsell
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie
No Lynch (1) -- Young Nick

Not Voting (2) -- Morgrim7, Captain_Frisk

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 lynch deadline is Saturday, November 24th, at 1:00 AM forum time.

Mod note: This game has been moving pretty slowly. :-/ Two blitz games completed, and this is only in D1!

[Eevee]

i think morgrim wagon not picking up immediately is a good sign. I wholeheartedly support this over no lynch, and urge others to consider it as well.

[pingpongsam]

I've been looking for the slow moving wagons as well. Still feel good about a Cayvie vote this regard too.  However, I can get behind Vote: Morgrim

[Galzria]

Point of interest: The Morgrim wagon is slow moving because it's a Morgrim wagon. It has nothing to do with Morgrim's alignment. He could be town or scum - it wouldn't matter. People will always be hesitant to lynch Morgrim.

[Captain_Frisk]

1. ashersky - 16
2. pingpongsam - 15
3. Young Nick - 18
4. Morgrim7 - 4
5. Captain_Frisk - 41
6. Robz888 - 36
7. Galzria - 24
8. Eevee - 33
9. jotheonah - 37
10. cayvie - 21
11. Qvist - 10
12. Dsell - 50 (!)

4 posts for morgim is a crime.  DSell stands out.... I don't remember him ever being so active.

Vote: Morgrim

He's in japan, so no thanksgiving related excuses for him the next few days.

[Galzria]

You counted pregame. Morgrim only has two game posts. However, it is likely wrong to discount Thanksgiving from Morgrim's plans, seeing as he suspended his game until Friday due to Thanksgiving.

[pingpongsam]

So, he has attempted to publicly declare himself absent until after Thanksgiving?

Unvote

[pingpongsam]

Oh, yeah Vote: Cayvie

[Robz888]

I'm fine with just killing Morgrim, I guess.

[Qvist]

So, I'm home from work and I really haven't posted much here so far.
I haven't read the last couple of pages in detail, only looked through the vote count.
And I'm surprised that we are in fact voting. I thought we agreed in not lynching someone tonight.
So I'm going to read now what the accusations are.

Another thought:
I don't know what your cards do, but some of my cards allow me to pick a target.
Do you think it might beneficial to coordinate targets in some way?

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.5:

Dsell (3) -- Robz888, ashersky, jotheonah
cayvie (1) -- pingpongsam
Captain_Frisk (1) -- Qvist,
Morgrim7 (4) -- Galzria, Eevee, Dsell, Captain_Frisk {L-3}
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie
No Lynch (1) -- Young Nick

Not Voting (1) -- Morgrim7

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 lynch deadline is Saturday, November 24th, at 1:00 AM forum time.

[Qvist]

Regarding Morgrim: I don't like "Lynch all lurkers" at all. Anti-Town isn't Mafia.
Regarding Dsell: Jumping on Eevee's typo is bad luck and makes him really suspicious. But on the other hand he didn't say "For me he's scum too". He just questioned jotheonah. And Robz made a big case out of it. No-one would have noticed it if it weren't Robz. I haven't played with him yet, but for me it seems rather suspicious from him to make such a big deal out of it.
Especially after he insisted in not lynchind anybody.

I still support Vote: No Lynch, I think.

I'm inclined to vote Robz. But I just unvote and Vote:No Lynch because I still think it's the best idea to lynch no-one.

[Dsell]

Regarding Morgrim: I don't like "Lynch all lurkers" at all. Anti-Town isn't Mafia.
Regarding Dsell: Jumping on Eevee's typo is bad luck and makes him really suspicious. But on the other hand he didn't say "For me he's scum too". He just questioned jotheonah. And Robz made a big case out of it. No-one would have noticed it if it weren't Robz. I haven't played with him yet, but for me it seems rather suspicious from him to make such a big deal out of it.
Especially after he insisted in not lynchind anybody.

I still support Vote: No Lynch, I think.

I'm inclined to vote Robz. But I just unvote and Vote:No Lynch because I still think it's the best idea to lynch no-one.

This is a huge problem with the case against me. I never jumped on the typo. I took issue with an argument (it was a bad argument) Jo made in response to the typo. When Eevee corrected himself, I said something about it because I agreed more with his earlier statement. A lot of people seem to think I just was sheeping Eevee's read he expressed in a typo post. That's not true. One of Jo's posts struck me as fishing and then he made the bad argument.

But thank you, Qvist, for seeing this argument for what it is: crap.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.6:

Dsell (3) -- Robz888, ashersky, jotheonah
cayvie (1) -- pingpongsam
Morgrim7 (4) -- Galzria, Eevee, Dsell, Captain_Frisk {L-3}
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie
No Lynch (2) -- Young Nick, Qvist

Not Voting (1) -- Morgrim7

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 lynch deadline is Saturday, November 24th, at 1:00 AM forum time. (2 Days)

[jotheonah]

Vote: Qvist

for reasons.

[Galzria]

Vote: Qvist

for reasons.

Convincing.

[ashersky]

Actually, I'll vote: Robz.  And it's because of something I noticed thanks to Qvist's quotes.

He jumps on Dsell for the Eevee thing, makes a big deal, then doesn't follow it up with a vote.  That's classic mafia play.  He's directing suspicion toward someone without voting, so he's safe when the flip is town.

[Robz888]

Actually, I'll vote: Robz.  And it's because of something I noticed thanks to Qvist's quotes.

He jumps on Dsell for the Eevee thing, makes a big deal, then doesn't follow it up with a vote.  That's classic mafia play.  He's directing suspicion toward someone without voting, so he's safe when the flip is town.

I absolutely did follow it up with a vote. I voted in the same post where I made that case. I am still voting for him.

[Robz888]

Qvist quoting me as supporting No Lynch, which I did, but that was before I noticed the Dsell stuff. When I realized I suspected Dsell, I voted for him immediately.

[cayvie]

we've solved it, guys

the scumteam is Qvist, Galzria, Dsell

vote: Dsell

[ashersky]

Qvist quoting me as supporting No Lynch, which I did, but that was before I noticed the Dsell stuff. When I realized I suspected Dsell, I voted for him immediately.

Oh.  Unvote.

The way those quotes were made it look bad.

[jotheonah]

363 gave me a gut scum read. Bunch of reasons.

1. He intro'd the post with this big "I haven't posted yet so I gotta get into the game" sentiment that felt like posting just to be seen.

2. Then he sort of scolds everyone for voting (at all), which seems like a bid for town cred.

3. And then the last bit has a hint of the bad kind of fishing.

And that's sort of all he does in the whole post.

[Morgrim7]

Sorry guys, I've been gone for a while. Thanksgiving...yeah. Only able to get on for like 5 minutes to say my BM7 was on thanksgiving break, just not enough time.

Anyway...
Ok, whats up with all this card claiming? How could it possibly help us find scum? I don't think I want to claim until somebody gives me a good reason. (now, don't take this as being anti-town, I honestly cant find the reason to claim. Maybe I just stayed up too late and woke up too early.)

And I'm surprised that we are in fact voting. I thought we agreed in not lynching someone tonight.

If we did, I wasn't here. We established in M6 that no lynch is a BAD IDEA.

Dsell, what Eevee said was a typo. Get over it.

After all this, I think I still want to see some more posting before I actually vote.
Scummy:
Qvist, Dsell

[Eevee]

Qvist, it should be pretty clear most of the town did not agree on not lynching.

[Qvist]

Qvist, it should be pretty clear most of the town did not agree on not lynching.

Where did you read that? I base my observation from the conversation around #227-#231.

Qvist quoting me as supporting No Lynch, which I did, but that was before I noticed the Dsell stuff. When I realized I suspected Dsell, I voted for him immediately.

Oh.  Unvote.

The way those quotes were made it look bad.

How? I just quoted.
Of course it was before he "noticed" that. And constructing a case after confirming a No Lynch looks suspicious to me, nothing more.

363 gave me a gut scum read. Bunch of reasons.

1. He intro'd the post with this big "I haven't posted yet so I gotta get into the game" sentiment that felt like posting just to be seen.

Because it is true. I haven't posted much so far, I was busy with several stuff.

3. And then the last bit has a hint of the bad kind of fishing.

I'm not sure if I understood this right, but I have not a lot of experience with Mafia so far and this is the first RM game for me. So I was just asking if it might be good idea to coordinate our night actions!? I didn't propose something specificly. If someone could tell me, it's no good idea because of X or Y, then I'm fine with it. Just curiousity.

And that's sort of all he does in the whole post.

Ok, what do you expect me to do? And you know that there's a second post from me after the Vote Count?

[Captain_Frisk]

After all this, I think I still want to see some more posting before I actually vote.
Scummy:
Qvist, Dsell

I don't understand why we should all be giving you more posting when you aren't present.

[Eevee]

Qvist, it should be pretty clear most of the town did not agree on not lynching.

Where did you read that? I base my observation from the conversation around #227-#231.

Four people (Robz, PPS, ashersky and joth) express their support to no lynch. There are 12 players total, so even if you add yourself to the list and assume no one has changed their mind, it's still less than half of the players. Not everyone has weighed in on this, but I don't see how you can blame someone for wanting a lynch happen. We don't always wind up lynching the first guy to get any votes on either. I still think Morgrim lynch > no lynch.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.7:

Qvist (1) -- jotheonah
Dsell (2) -- Robz888, cayvie,
cayvie (1) -- pingpongsam
Morgrim7 (4) -- Galzria, Eevee, Dsell, Captain_Frisk {L-3}

No Lynch (2) -- Young Nick, Qvist

Not Voting (2) -- Morgrim7, ashersky

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 lynch deadline is Saturday, November 24th, at 1:00 AM forum time. (1 Day)

[Robz888]

I guess I'm forgetting about lynch all lurkers, so Vote: Morgrim7

His post makes it clear that he has no idea what is going on (like, a bunch of reasons have been given for why we might No Lynch).

Yeah, voting for Morgrim really isn't much different from voting for No Lynch, because it's not informational whatsoever (no one is exactly on the hook for lynching, or not-lynching, Morgrim). But I guess there's that itty bitty chance he is scum.

Whatever. I would rather lynch Dsell, but I don't think that's happening.

Disclaimer: I'm mostly V/LA until Monday.

[Eevee]

If the chance of morgrim flipping scum is "itty bitty" and the lynch has no informational value, why are you contributing in it Robz?

[Young Nick]

If the chance of morgrim flipping scum is "itty bitty" and the lynch has no informational value, why are you contributing in it Robz?

Because lurking Morgrim is going to suck for town as long as he lives. Regardless of his alignment, we will always be suspicious of him and his inevitable lynch will not provide us with much information, so we might as well get it out of the way.

[Young Nick]

Vote: Morgrim7

[Eevee]

Why are we thinking the chance of him flipping scum is "itty bitty"?

[Captain_Frisk]

unvote

Vote: no lynch


Huge fos robz

[ashersky]

Vote: No Lynch

Agree no town killing tonight, investigate if you have a good scumread on someone, otherwise protect or roleblock if you can.

[ashersky]

Vote: Morgrim7

This put him at L-1 and stinks of scum seeing an easy town lynch and jumping on it.  A no-info town lynch is a dream for mafia.  I'd be willing to vote YN for this if people see what I see.

[Galzria]

I'll vote No Lynch as well. I proposed the idea, it's the least I can do to follow through.

Although, outside of Robz' statement about "itty bitty" chance of Morgrim flipping scum, I would still be willing to discuss his lynch.

[Galzria]

unvote

Vote: no lynch


Huge fos robz

Also: Go Boast.

[Young Nick]

I mean you know I'd be down for a NL. That's where my vote was. It's just that what I said about Morgrim holds true. I would rather do it sooner rather than later.

Having said that, this is no standard game, RM means if he is town we have lost someone whose night actions could help town a lot. For now, vote still stands.

[ashersky]

That's 4 for NL, 3 for Morgrim.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.8:

Qvist (1) -- jotheonah
Dsell (1) -- cayvie,
cayvie (1) -- pingpongsam
Morgrim7 (4) --  Eevee, Dsell, Robz888, Young Nick {L-3}

No Lynch (4) -- Qvist, Captain_Frisk, ashersky, Galzria {L-3}

Not Voting (1) -- Morgrim7

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 lynch deadline is Saturday, November 24th, at 1:00 AM forum time. (17 2! hours)

[Dsell]

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 lynch deadline is Saturday, November 24th, at 1:00 AM forum time. (17 hours)

I think that should be 1 PM forum time? Otherwise it's like 2 hours, not 17...

Anyway I agree with Y_N that a Morgrim lynch will not yield information so it's better to do it now rather than when we really really need an informational lynch. I realize it's role madness so there may be a chance for people to get an investigation on him but I wonder if that investigation is better used elsewhere. Maybe not. I believe it's better than no lynch but I'm not gonna be too distraught if no lynch happens.

[Archetype]

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 lynch deadline is Saturday, November 24th, at 1:00 AM forum time. (17 hours)

I think that should be 1 PM forum time? Otherwise it's like 2 hours, not 17...

You're right! Was thinking PM...

2 Hours left!

[jotheonah]

Vote: No Lynch

We could always vig Morgrim tonight.

[Dsell]

Vote: No Lynch

We could always vig Morgrim tonight.

Are you being serious? Because you were the strongest advocate of absolutely not vigging no matter what.

[jotheonah]

I'm not sure that's accurate. I do think the situation YN described re: Morgrim is one of the best situations to use a vig power in, though. But perhaps not tonight. (Phone posting, so less verbose than usual.)

[Galzria]

Actually, myself and Robz were. Vig'ing has been nothing but trouble for town. I'm a little more lax on the issue than Robz, because I think a Vig should take his shot if he's absolutely confident in his read (Robz think a Vig should wait until a situation where it's shoot or town-loss), but we're both in agreement that discretion is far, far better.

[jotheonah]

For the record, Dsell's kneejerk horror at the suggestion gives him another scum point in my book.

[Morgrim7]

Vote: Morgrim7 everybody!

[Dsell]

For the record, Dsell's kneejerk horror at the suggestion gives him another scum point in my book.

Loool no horror at all, I think it's a good idea. But I think it's hypocritical from you.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.9:

Dsell (1) -- cayvie
cayvie (1) -- pingpongsam
Morgrim7 (5) --  Eevee, Dsell, Robz888, Young Nick, Morgrim7 {L-2}

No Lynch (5) -- Qvist, Captain_Frisk, ashersky, Galzria, jotheonah {L-2}

Not Voting (0) --

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 lynch deadline is Saturday, November 24th, at 1:00 AM forum time. (10 minutes!)

[Dsell]

No lynch has 5, not 4.

Morgrim, anyone?

[Archetype]

No lynch has 5, not 4.

That's what I get for phone updating

..2 minutes left..

[Archetype]

Thread Locked!

[Archetype]

Everybody looked around at each other confused.

"What should we do!?" Everyone screamed.

"I have an idea, lynch me! I just looooove breaking rules!" Morgrim said, a little too excitedly.

"Naw," Someone said, "Let's just not do anything,"

"Yeah, I'm hungry," Another person said, "Let's go get some refreshments,"

And so everyone got up, and headed off to the kitchen for some food.

--

The day has ended in a No Lynch.

--

Break 1 (Night 1) has begun!

Please submit the name of all card(s) you will play that night and who you wish to target. Even if you aren't playing a card, you must message me that you aren't. Everyone has 24 hours to do this.

Until the next day... THREAD LOCKED

Mafia QT will soon be unlocked.

Enjoy the snacks!

[Archetype]

The players returned back to the table to find pingpongsam's cellphone ringing like crazy.

"Ugh! Why didn't anyone of you tell me it was ringing?"

Everyone just shrugged.

"I have a very important business meeting tomorrow, and this might be the boss,"

He grumbled and muttered under his breath as he picked up his phone and headed out the back door to take his call.

"Hello?" pingpongsam breathed into his phone, "Hey! Who is this? No my refrigerator isn't running! And I'm not going to catch it either!"

pingpongsam angrily punched the 'End Call' button and began to head back inside. In a blink of an eye, a rule breaker ran over to the door, pulled out a spare key, locked the back door, and swallowed the key.

"Hey!" pingpongsam screamed, pounding on the door, "Let me in!"

The rule breaker casually walked away from the door back to the table. pingpongsam stomped away in fury.

"Nice prank call!" The rule breaker said to redacted.

"Thanks!" They responded.

--

"Is pingpongsam coming back?" Someone asked at the table.

"Naw," One of the rule breakers said, "He has a refrigerator to catch,"

pingpongsam the Town-aligned player has been night killed. After looking at his hand, a couple of players could see a Scheme, Cartographer, Lookout, and Apprentice. These cards will be moved from the player to the Trash Pile at the beginning of D3.

After a quick search of the Discard Pile, 13 cards were found, probably played during the snack break (ordered alphabetically):

1 Masquerade
1 Navigator
1 Outpost
2 Rats
1 Scout
1 Scrying Pool
2 Secret Chambers
2 Spies
1 Throne Room
1 Wishing Well


Turn 2 has begun!

Not voting (11) -- cayvie, Eevee, Dsell, Robz888, Young Nick, Morgrim7, Qvist, Captain_Frisk, ashersky, Galzria, jotheonah

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 lynch deadline is Monday, December 2nd at 9:00 pm, forum time.

[Archetype]

*Thread Unlocked

[ashersky]

So how do we do this?  Reveal the info we got?

[Dsell]

So how do we do this?  Reveal the info we got?

I would hold off until more people can weigh in, unless you have something really explosive.

[jotheonah]

Dsell, did you play TR or get hit by a discard attack?

[Dsell]

Dsell, did you play TR or get hit by a discard attack?

Neither.

[Young Nick]

Dsell, did you play TR or get hit by a discard attack?

Neither.

Vote: Dsell until he can otherwise justify why he has less than four cards in hand.

[Young Nick]

Having said that, there do exist other cards that can reduce hand-size.

[Eevee]

Dsell, did you play TR or get hit by a discard attack?

Neither.

Vote: Dsell until he can otherwise justify why he has less than four cards in hand.

Should I understand what's going on?

[ashersky]

Dsell, did you play TR or get hit by a discard attack?

Neither.

Vote: Dsell until he can otherwise justify why he has less than four cards in hand.

How do you know he has less than 4 cards?

[Dsell]

Dsell, did you play TR or get hit by a discard attack?

Neither.

Vote: Dsell until he can otherwise justify why he has less than four cards in hand.

As far as I know, I have 4 cards in hand.

[jotheonah]

You have two different people who investigated you who say otherwise. ( I assume that's what YN was getting at). I think the scumpromo doesn't show up on investigations.

 Vote: Dsell

[Galzria]

For the record:

I have no clue what Joth/YN are on about. I've no information on Dsell. However, I know that one of them is town, so I am willing to sheep them:

Vote: Dsell

Also, unexplained to me right now, but I'll accept that I simply don't understand why: I played Sage last night but it is not in the discard.

[Dsell]

This is HIGHLY interesting! I actually used masquerade on Jo last night because he was my biggest scum suspect and it let me see his hand. His choice of cards did not as all assuage my suspicions: Smugglers, Contraband, Rats, and Torturer. Since I saw 4 cards (not sure whether I saw before or after he used a card IF he used one), I thought maybe that was a point for his towniness, but it's apparent it was not.

Anyway I have 4 cards in my hand so if Jo is claiming that I only have 3, he is wrong, unless I am misinformed.

My best guess is that Jo chose not to use a card so that after last night, he would have 4 cards like the other townies. He's inventing a case now and plans to blame the mislynch on the fact that this is role madness.

If Young Nick got the same investigation, then Jo actually may be town. That would suggest that someone has played something that is obscuring the facts, or possibly that there was a mistake and I lost a card but didn't find out about it.

[Young Nick]

Let me clarify. I do not have evidence that Dsell has less than four cards in hand. I interpreted joth's questioning of Dsell to imply that joth's card told him how many cards Dsell has in hand. When joth saw that Dsell had less than four cards in hand, he assumed that Dsell either
A) Got hit by a discard attack
B) Played TR->[his card]. I don't know if TR is in this game. I assume if it is, it has a similar effect to the Dominion TR, ie pick a card in your hand and play it twice. This would explain why Dsell has less than four cards in hand.
C) Dsell is Mafia and thus had four cards to begin with, so only three cards now.

I know of other cards that would enable a town player to have three cards or less at this point, so joth's assumptions do not account for all scenarios. However, until Dsell explains why joth seemingly has evidence that Dsell has <4 cards, I will vote for him.

Please note: I have no evidence myself. I am sheeping joth. I would like joth to reveal his source of information before a lynch occurs.

PPE: Wil read new post by Dsell after I post this.

[cayvie]

For the record:

I have no clue what Joth/YN are on about. I've no information on Dsell. However, I know that one of them is town, so I am willing to sheep them:

Vote: Dsell

Also, unexplained to me right now, but I'll accept that I simply don't understand why: I played Sage last night but it is not in the discard.

that was me

i played Rats on you, which made your card show up as Rats as well.

[Galzria]

Joth played Spy on you Dsell, although I don't know exactly what that does. Your account of the rest of his hand is correct however, which only lends credit to your claim of having looked at his cards - not that you yourself no longer have 4 in hand.

[Dsell]

Joth played Spy on you Dsell, although I don't know exactly what that does. Your account of the rest of his hand is correct however, which only lends credit to your claim of having looked at his cards - not that you yourself no longer have 4 in hand.

You can verify that he played spy? I don't know what that does either, of course, but if that's the case he must be town since he had 5 cards total. I can't say why he got the result he did except for those options I already gave (some action is obscuring the results or my own information is wrong/obscured), so I understand why people want to lynch me. But realize that after I'm lynched, there's going to be another mystery to solve and lynching me will be wasted time and one less person to help solve it.

[Galzria]

Joth played Spy on you Dsell, although I don't know exactly what that does. Your account of the rest of his hand is correct however, which only lends credit to your claim of having looked at his cards - not that you yourself no longer have 4 in hand.

You can verify that he played spy? I don't know what that does either, of course, but if that's the case he must be town since he had 5 cards total. I can't say why he got the result he did except for those options I already gave (some action is obscuring the results or my own information is wrong/obscured), so I understand why people want to lynch me. But realize that after I'm lynched, there's going to be another mystery to solve and lynching me will be wasted time and one less person to help solve it.

I sit to his... Left? Right? Whichever way passes MY unchosen cards to him.

On MY turn 4, I had a choice between "X" and "Spy". I chose "X". That means he received Spy.

You listed his hand as 4 cards. 3 of those could've been chosen from cards I passed him. 1 he must've started with. You did NOT list Spy. This means he played Spy, and came back with results of some nature on you.

I also investigated Joth last night to increase my own personal knowledge of cards within a subset around me. It was a straight alignment investigation. Joth is town.

[Young Nick]

Joth played Spy on you Dsell, although I don't know exactly what that does. Your account of the rest of his hand is correct however, which only lends credit to your claim of having looked at his cards - not that you yourself no longer have 4 in hand.

You can verify that he played spy? I don't know what that does either, of course, but if that's the case he must be town since he had 5 cards total. I can't say why he got the result he did except for those options I already gave (some action is obscuring the results or my own information is wrong/obscured), so I understand why people want to lynch me. But realize that after I'm lynched, there's going to be another mystery to solve and lynching me will be wasted time and one less person to help solve it.

...or you turn up as Mafia and there is no mystery to be solved. If you are town, yeah it sucks, but all of the scenarios you provide look a little too bastard for DoMafia.

[Dsell]

Joth played Spy on you Dsell, although I don't know exactly what that does. Your account of the rest of his hand is correct however, which only lends credit to your claim of having looked at his cards - not that you yourself no longer have 4 in hand.

You can verify that he played spy? I don't know what that does either, of course, but if that's the case he must be town since he had 5 cards total. I can't say why he got the result he did except for those options I already gave (some action is obscuring the results or my own information is wrong/obscured), so I understand why people want to lynch me. But realize that after I'm lynched, there's going to be another mystery to solve and lynching me will be wasted time and one less person to help solve it.

...or you turn up as Mafia and there is no mystery to be solved. If you are town, yeah it sucks, but all of the scenarios you provide look a little too bastard for DoMafia.

Look at RMM3, where the town was distracted for days by an apparent fact that was just plain wrong. As eHalcyon would point out, this is role madness.

[Robz888]

I'm not really available for discussion right now (I'll be back tomorrow, Monday, afternoon), but I can confirm that Dsell played Masquerade and Galzria appeared to have played Rats.

[ashersky]

YN, can you reveal what you did last night?  I am trying to understand your willingness to sheep Joth right off the bat with you seemingly knowing what he was getting at so quickly...

[Qvist]

Ok, let's see.

There are 13 cards in the discard pile. We were 12 players. That means that at least one player was able to play 2 cards.
I was able to do that with Outpost + X. I wait with revealing what X was until I'm more confident with what I think is going on.
I don't know what Throne Room does. But it probably doesn't allow you to play a card twice, because that is what Outpost did.
Maybe it allows you to play a card twice, but you have to wait a day until you can play that.
Maybe they do the same thing what means someone didn't play a card.

Ok, next. I have no idea what Spy or Scrying Pool are doing, but they are no discard attacks in Dominion.
And if they were discard attacks, shouldn't they appear in the discard pile?
And I didn't found info on whether investigate cards allow you to see the Promos or just one card less.
But jotheonah basically says Dsell has 3 cards in his hand. How do you know??

Vote: jotheonah until I got clarification.

[Qvist]

jotheonah, what does Spy do?

[jotheonah]

Someone else apparently played Spy too. It lets me see two plAyers' hands but not the cards they play.

I used it on 2 people. One was Dsell. He had 3 cards in hand. The other person had four. If someone not on an iPhone would be so kind as to aggregate/repost the hand set claims I might be able to catch Dsell definitively.

[ashersky]

Vote: Morgrim for having two posts this game and making me forget he's even here. Seriously, there's lurking.... And then there's Morgrim.

Yeah, yeah. I know. Morgrim hunting.  But the lack of posts aside, he's the only one who hasn't posted his hand.

Speaking of hands:

Frisk:
Base, Seaside, Cornucopia, Prosperity, Dark Ages

Joth:
Prosperity, Dark Ages, Intrigue, Seaside, Base

Robz:
Base, Base, Intrigue, Intrigue, Prosperity

Galz:
Dark Ages, Dark Ages, Dark Ages, Hinterlands, Alchemy

Dsell:
Seaside, Seaside, Seaside, Alchemy, Intrigue

Y.Nick:
Intrigue, Intrigue, Prosperity, Seaside, Seaside

PPS:
Alchemy, Hinterlands, Hinterlands, Intrigue, Seaside

Cayvie:
Alchemy, Intrigue, Cornucopia, Dark Ages, Dark Ages

Ashersky:
Prosperity, Base, Alchemy, Dark Ages, Seaside

Eevee:
Base, Intrigue, Prosperity, Hinterlands, Seaside

Qvist:
Seaside, Seaside, Seaside, Seaside, Intrigue

Morgrim:
??, ??, ??, ??, ??

Counts:

Base: 6
Intrigue: 10
Seaside: 14
Alchemy: 5
Prosperity: 6
Cornucopia: 2
Hinterlands: 4
Dark Ages: 8

And of course 5 more somewhere for Morgrim. I wasn't sure if the count would help, but it seemed worth having here. I don't see any pattern to it myself, even if I guessed where Morgrim's cards might fall. Still, I thought having this in one place might help on future days.

Query to town: Are we pre announcing out set play each day? For example, before we go to night, should I announce which set I'll be playing from? I don't think there's a correlation between set and role, so I don't see too much harm, and it let's us match up the cards played (when released in the morning) to who was going to play from which set. It adds a level of verification to the process (I think) that will hopefully make it harder for scum to lie and mislead.

Here you go.

[ashersky]

Masq was his intrigue card, so three seasides and an alchemy left...

[jotheonah]

All the cards I saw we're seaside. So IF people want absolute certainty we could hAve Dsell claim his alchemy card today and then lynch him tomorrow if it doesn't hit the discard. But I'd much rather just lynch him.

[jotheonah]

Also the other person's hand matches their claim so they're very likely town. But I don't know if the IC benefit is worth painting a target on their back. Thoughts?

[ashersky]

All the cards I saw we're seaside. So IF people want absolute certainty we could hAve Dsell claim his alchemy card today and then lynch him tomorrow if it doesn't hit the discard. But I'd much rather just lynch him.

Reading back over his D1 posts, I think I am okay with the lynch, but I want to hear from YN on his quick, quick sheep, still.

Also the other person's hand matches their claim so they're very likely town. But I don't know if the IC benefit is worth painting a target on their back. Thoughts?

Given protection cards available,  I think it is worth it.  Wifom plus actual protection definitely helps town there.

[cayvie]

All the cards I saw we're seaside. So IF people want absolute certainty we could hAve Dsell claim his alchemy card today and then lynch him tomorrow if it doesn't hit the discard. But I'd much rather just lynch him.

lynching him today seems correct, based on this info

vote: dsell

that's L-2

[Qvist]

I did some analysis I will present later.
But I like to hear first if someone can confirm the Spy ability.
And I like to hear from Robz what card he played and what it did do.
Until then, please no hammer.

[Captain_Frisk]

I can validate spy.  I played the other. 

[jotheonah]

Other thoughts about whether cleared town should be announced?

[Eevee]

Other thoughts about whether cleared town should be announced?

I'n sorry I once again suck at knowing the setup. Scum has the promo cards so that's how you know someone being truthful about their hand means that they are town?

[Captain_Frisk]

Other thoughts about whether cleared town should be announced?

I'm going to withhold any announcements until later in the day.... Galzria style.

[Captain_Frisk]

Other thoughts about whether cleared town should be announced?

I'n sorry I once again suck at knowing the setup. Scum has the promo cards so that's how you know someone being truthful about their hand means that they are town?

This is my impression.  Since none of the promos were played - they must still be in hand, and thus any spies would have spied them.

[Eevee]

Other thoughts about whether cleared town should be announced?

So, you are confirmed town as long as Galzria is truthful (=town) and not mistaken (could a redirector role mess this up?). So scum already has a night kill target in you. If you have information about someone (who then is town if you are), I think you should share it before we head to night at least (I guess asap is preferable, because it helps the discussion too), because being a probable IC you are a likely night kill target and it would suck for your information to go to the grave with you.

So I vote share.

[Captain_Frisk]

@Morgrim -

With thanksgiving over - will you be posting more?  Are you willing to tell us the sets of cards in your hand / what set you played last night?

[Archetype]

Phone posting now, but Dsell is at L-2. eHalc is spectating this game, but eHalc, can you please lock the thread if someone gets lynched and I'm not online? Thanks. Treat eHalc as locking it the same as me locking it. I'll be gone for 8 hours so I cannot do it.

[Eevee]

Oh lol if someone derps Dsell in the 8 hours. Hint: Don't do it, people still might have information they would like to share..

[Young Nick]

I thought archetype had said the Mafia modifications are not actually Promo cards; that scum only have four cards in their hand to start with. However, I don't know for sure. He can clarify when he returns later.

As for why I sheeped joth. I have no outside information regarding the joth/Dsell interactions. I merely recognized what joth was getting at in his post and hopped on real quick. I played the Wishing Well. This card allows you to name a card and see which other players have that card, if any.

My result, which I would like to keep to myself for the time being, does not have any effect on the Dsell/joth situation.

[Captain_Frisk]

I thought archetype had said the Mafia modifications are not actually Promo cards; that scum only have four cards in their hand to start with. However, I don't know for sure. He can clarify when he returns later.

As for why I sheeped joth. I have no outside information regarding the joth/Dsell interactions. I merely recognized what joth was getting at in his post and hopped on real quick. I played the Wishing Well. This card allows you to name a card and see which other players have that card, if any.

My result, which I would like to keep to myself for the time being, does not have any effect on the Dsell/joth situation.

This is correct after going back and rereading some things, so its a little dissappointing.  Although the # of cards observed in someones hands is still material.  (if someone only has 3 cards, then there needs to be an explanation)

[Dsell]

I am here but have no new info. I am not aware of having 3 cards so I assume something targeted me and the results are hidden/delayed or something caused Jo to get an incorrect result.

[Captain_Frisk]

Joth - does your read on the cards you received for your target match the cards that DSell claimed he had?

[Captain_Frisk]

Also - I'd really be interested in Morgrim responding to my previous question.  I know he's not online yet, but we should definitely wait.

[Young Nick]

All the cards I saw we're seaside. So IF people want absolute certainty we could hAve Dsell claim his alchemy card today and then lynch him tomorrow if it doesn't hit the discard. But I'd much rather just lynch him.

Joth - does your read on the cards you received for your target match the cards that DSell claimed he had?

It appears that everything matches perfectly, Dsell played his Intrigue card and claims to have three Seaside and one Alchemy left. Joth saw only the three Seaside implying the Alchemy card is made up by Dsell.

We could let Dsell live on the condition that he claims what his Alchemy card is. If he additionally claims which hand he got it in, the player to his [right/left] can confirm this unless he took it from the first hand he received. We then could force him to play said Alchemy card tonight. If it is in the discard tomorrow, then he would be cleared. Otherwise, we lynch him.

This obviously isn't fool proof. Mafia could play Rats on him so his card shows up as Rats in the discard. Or he could be role-blocked (cared-blocked?) and thus prevented from playing it by Mafia.

Last thing to consider is the presence of a bus-driving card (that's the redirecting role, right?). If so, joth could have targeted Dsell but seen someone else's hand. I will look at others' set claims in a moment to deduce if this is possible.

[Young Nick]

So the only other possible person is Qvist. Qvist also conveniently already has an excuse for why he has three cards in hand: he played Outpost on X, meaning he gets to play X twice.

If anyone else has Outpost in their hand, can they could confirm whether or not Qvist is telling the truth regarding having played it and another card. If Outpost does not allow the player to play a second card, and someone can verify this, they should step forward. This would be proving that Qvist has three cards in-hand when he should have four.

I still assume there was no bus-driving and that Dsell is a caught scum lying, however there is a small chance that it is Qvist who is lying. If someone chose those two as bus-driving targets, well then my head might explode.

[ashersky]

I thought archetype had said the Mafia modifications are not actually Promo cards; that scum only have four cards in their hand to start with. However, I don't know for sure. He can clarify when he returns later.

As for why I sheeped joth. I have no outside information regarding the joth/Dsell interactions. I merely recognized what joth was getting at in his post and hopped on real quick. I played the Wishing Well. This card allows you to name a card and see which other players have that card, if any.

My result, which I would like to keep to myself for the time being, does not have any effect on the Dsell/joth situation.

This is correct after going back and rereading some things, so its a little dissappointing.  Although the # of cards observed in someones hands is still material.  (if someone only has 3 cards, then there needs to be an explanation)

I can also confirm YN is telling the truth about his card.

[ashersky]

I can L-1 Dsell if that's wanted.

[Captain_Frisk]

I can L-1 Dsell if that's wanted.

No.  Waiting for morgrim please.

[Archetype]

@ YN: No. If you were to somehow look at someone's (scum) hand, you would not be able to see the kill modification.

[Robz888]

I did some analysis I will present later.
But I like to hear first if someone can confirm the Spy ability.
And I like to hear from Robz what card he played and what it did do.
Until then, please no hammer.

I played Scout (shocking!). It lets me pick two people, and see the cards they played. I picked Dsell and Galzria. Dsell played Masquerade, and Galzria appeared to play Rats.

[Galzria]

I did some analysis I will present later.
But I like to hear first if someone can confirm the Spy ability.
And I like to hear from Robz what card he played and what it did do.
Until then, please no hammer.

I played Scout (shocking!). It lets me pick two people, and see the cards they played. I picked Dsell and Galzria. Dsell played Masquerade, and Galzria appeared to play Rats.

Correct. But what I really played was Sage, which was a straight alignment investigation. I played it on Joth, who is town. Cayvie has claimed to play Rats on me, which makes my card appear as Rats in the discard. No clue if it simply replaces my Sage, or if Cayvie takes Sage to hand.

[Qvist]

Ok, interesting. Analysis follows in few minutes.

[Archetype]

Seems this needs clarification too:

Any cards that get discarded during the night (from discarding attacks, etc) will not be shown in the discard pile the next day. They won't even be mentioned.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 2.0:

Dsell (4) -- Young Nick, jotheonah, Galzria, cayvie {L-2}
jotheonah (1) -- Qvist

Not Voting (6) -- Eevee, Dsell, Robz888, Morgrim7, Captain_Frisk, ashersky,

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 lynch deadline is Monday, November 3rd, at 9:00 PM forum time.

[cayvie]

I did some analysis I will present later.
But I like to hear first if someone can confirm the Spy ability.
And I like to hear from Robz what card he played and what it did do.
Until then, please no hammer.

I played Scout (shocking!). It lets me pick two people, and see the cards they played. I picked Dsell and Galzria. Dsell played Masquerade, and Galzria appeared to play Rats.

Correct. But what I really played was Sage, which was a straight alignment investigation. I played it on Joth, who is town. Cayvie has claimed to play Rats on me, which makes my card appear as Rats in the discard. No clue if it simply replaces my Sage, or if Cayvie takes Sage to hand.

nope, it just disguises your play. i guess it would have been more useful for scum? seemed kinda silly, so i got rid of it early. my hand's not great, i think.

[Qvist]

Ok, this analysis is shorter than it was before because I had to reboot 1 hour ago and I didn't save the text. D'oh! These were the cards that were announced. Young Nick, pingpongsam, Morgrim and me didn't announce. But we know from the leftover cards that pingpongsam played Intrigue.

Frisk: Base
Joth: Base
Robz: Intrigue
Galz: Dark Ages
Dsell: Intrigue
Cayvie: Dark Ages
Ashersky: Alchemy
Eevee: Base

I played Outpost + Navigator. Navigator let me target a player and see what cards were used on him. So I was allowed to target two players.

Dark Ages: Cayvie and Galzria played the 2 Rats althout it seems that Galzria has played Sage and it only appeared as Rats.
Alchemy: ashersky has obviously played Scrying Pool.
Base: jotheonah and CF had played Spy which means that Eevee had played Throne Room.
Intrigue: Dsell has played Masquerade, Robz has played Scout, Young Nick has played Wishing Well. That means that Morgrim and pingpongsam had played Secret Chambers.
It's still possible that someone didn't play any card, so that Eevee played two cards. TR + X.

I can confirm that Spy was used on Dsell, credibility for jotheonah.
I can confirm that Scout was used on Dsell, credibility for Robz.
I targetted another player, but I think it would be better to not reveal this yet. It's nothing special, but in case someone should lie about it.
I can sort of confirm that Young Nick played Wishing Well because I gave this to him.

This leads me to:
ashersky: What did Scrying Pool do? Why did you play an attack on the first day?
Eevee: What did Throne Room do? Did you play 2 cards?
Morgrim: We need more info. Want to contribute?
Dsell played an attack like card on the first day and jotheonah says he's lying. jotheonah could still lie about the 3 cards, but this is for me still enough for Vote: Dsell {L-1}

[Dsell]

FOS: Qvist for putting me at L-1 before Frisk gets his answer from Morgrim.

I can claim my alchemy card if wanted.

[Eevee]

I would rather not reveal, but I guess I have to now? While I think Qvist put that info up with good intentions (because if he was scum, he could have just said it to his team mates privately in the QT), it is rather annoying I'm now in this situation. Not FoS'ing him, maybe annoyedly grunting at him.

[Captain_Frisk]

Will someone on DSell please unvote?  We do not want to end this day this early.

[Qvist]

Unvote Fine

[Qvist]

But I'm not sure how this could change anything.
Eevee, hm, I don't know in what situation I brought you in, but if you think it's best not to reveal, don't do it.

[Eevee]

I mean whatever it's not too hard to figure out.  Throne room lets me double the card I play the following night. I didn't want to tell this, because this obviously makes me a lucrative night kill target (I effectively get to play my best card twice). Will the card I play still take effect should I die at night? Either way, I guess I'm asking for some doctor protection now.

[Captain_Frisk]

But I'm not sure how this could change anything.
Eevee, hm, I don't know in what situation I brought you in, but if you think it's best not to reveal, don't do it.

Because I played spy, I have information, and I want to get it out before I'm killed

Yikes

[Captain_Frisk]

I would like everyone to state for the record that they did or did not play scout last night.

[Dsell]

Did not. Clearly.

[cayvie]

didn't play scout

[ashersky]

S pool for me.  Not an attack, investigative. Gave me the description only of the card played by my target (YN).

[Robz888]

Uh, I did play Scout, like I said.

Like everyone else, I am ready to lynch Dsell whenever we are satisfied with the discussion (not yet, but soon).

[Eevee]

Didnt play scout.

[Qvist]

I played Outpost + Navigator, like I said.

[Dsell]

If my lynch is a foregone conclusion, I might as well revea that the alchemy card in my hand is Philosopher's Stone and if there are 20 or more cards in the discard I can skip the next night and go straight to the next day after the lynch.

[Dsell]

If my lynch is a foregone conclusion, I might as well revea that the alchemy card in my hand is Philosopher's Stone and if there are 20 or more cards in the discard I can skip the next night and go straight to the next day after the lynch.

And I have received no update that it's no longer in my hand.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 2.0:

Dsell (4) -- Young Nick, jotheonah, Galzria, cayvie {L-2}
jotheonah (1) -- Qvist

Not Voting (6) -- Eevee, Dsell, Robz888, Morgrim7, Captain_Frisk, ashersky,

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 lynch deadline is Monday, November 3rd, at 9:00 PM forum time.

No Change (so, mainly a bump).

[jotheonah]

The deadline is last month?

[Young Nick]

If my lynch is a foregone conclusion, I might as well revea that the alchemy card in my hand is Philosopher's Stone and if there are 20 or more cards in the discard I can skip the next night and go straight to the next day after the lynch.

Could you clarify what you mean here? Bolded part is confusing me.

[Young Nick]

Vote Count 2.0:

Dsell (4) -- Young Nick, jotheonah, Galzria, cayvie {L-2}
jotheonah (1) -- Qvist

Not Voting (6) -- Eevee, Dsell, Robz888, Morgrim7, Captain_Frisk, ashersky,

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 lynch deadline is Monday, November 3rd, at 9:00 PM forum time.

No Change (so, mainly a bump).

Qvist is not voting if I remember correctly.

[Captain_Frisk]

The players to ppss left and right may be able to put together what card pps played.

[Galzria]

As noted, I played Sage, not Scout.

[Captain_Frisk]

The players to ppss left and right may be able to put together what card pps played.

Disregard, this would force some these players to expose their hands to their neighbors.

[Captain_Frisk]

1 Masquerade - DSell
1 Navigator - Qvist
1 Outpost - Qvist
2 Rats - Cayvie + Galzria
1 Scout - RobZ
1 Scrying Pool - ashersky
2 Secret Chambers
2 Spies - Joth + Captain_Frisk
1 Throne Room
1 Wishing Well

[Galzria]

Eevee claimed TR.

YN claimed WW (I think?)

[Galzria]

Yeah, #451 YN claims the WW.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ahhh - i see that Qvist has already put this together, must have missed it.

So - I don't see anything resembling a discard attack here that would have dropped DSell's hand to 3.

I'm pretty sure that I've got something here.  Asher / Eevee / Morgrim / YN - can you guys help me out with what card you played and what it did?  Obviously don't give away any anti town information, but I'm pretty sure Joth and I will be able to catch at least 1 liar here.

[Eevee]

Ahhh - i see that Qvist has already put this together, must have missed it.

So - I don't see anything resembling a discard attack here that would have dropped DSell's hand to 3.

I'm pretty sure that I've got something here.  Asher / Eevee / Morgrim / YN - can you guys help me out with what card you played and what it did?  Obviously don't give away any anti town information, but I'm pretty sure Joth and I will be able to catch at least 1 liar here.

I already felt forced to give out mine.

I mean whatever it's not too hard to figure out.  Throne room lets me double the card I play the following night. I didn't want to tell this, because this obviously makes me a lucrative night kill target (I effectively get to play my best card twice). Will the card I play still take effect should I die at night? Either way, I guess I'm asking for some doctor protection now.

I thought that was fairly huge, not really pleased to see people missing it completely..

[ashersky]

Ahhh - i see that Qvist has already put this together, must have missed it.

So - I don't see anything resembling a discard attack here that would have dropped DSell's hand to 3.

I'm pretty sure that I've got something here.  Asher / Eevee / Morgrim / YN - can you guys help me out with what card you played and what it did?  Obviously don't give away any anti town information, but I'm pretty sure Joth and I will be able to catch at least 1 liar here.

I did once.  I targeted YN with Scrying Pool.  It gave me the exact description of the card he played, but NOT the name of the card.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ahhh - i see that Qvist has already put this together, must have missed it.

So - I don't see anything resembling a discard attack here that would have dropped DSell's hand to 3.

I'm pretty sure that I've got something here.  Asher / Eevee / Morgrim / YN - can you guys help me out with what card you played and what it did?  Obviously don't give away any anti town information, but I'm pretty sure Joth and I will be able to catch at least 1 liar here.

So you can tell us what the wishing well did?

I did once.  I targeted YN with Scrying Pool.  It gave me the exact description of the card he played, but NOT the name of the card.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ahhh - i see that Qvist has already put this together, must have missed it.

So - I don't see anything resembling a discard attack here that would have dropped DSell's hand to 3.

I'm pretty sure that I've got something here.  Asher / Eevee / Morgrim / YN - can you guys help me out with what card you played and what it did?  Obviously don't give away any anti town information, but I'm pretty sure Joth and I will be able to catch at least 1 liar here.

I did once.  I targeted YN with Scrying Pool.  It gave me the exact description of the card he played, but NOT the name of the card.

So you can tell us what the wishing well did?

[ashersky]

Yes.  Not sure I can paste, though.  Arch, can I get a ruling?

I will say that YN wasn't lying when he said what he said he did.

[Captain_Frisk]

Yes.  Not sure I can paste, though.  Arch, can I get a ruling?

I will say that YN wasn't lying when he said what he said he did.

That's fine.

Just need morgrim for secret chamber.

[Morgrim7]

secret chamber was a defense card.

[Captain_Frisk]

secret chamber was a defense card.

Can you elaborate please?

[Captain_Frisk]

secret chamber was a defense card.

Can you elaborate please?

Seems that if this was true, then pps should be alive?

[Morgrim7]

It makes me invulnerable to any night actions.

[Archetype]

Yes.  Not sure I can paste, though.  Arch, can I get a ruling?

I will say that YN wasn't lying when he said what he said he did.

Copy + Paste is fine for all card claiming, just no time stamps.

[ashersky]

Yes.  Not sure I can paste, though.  Arch, can I get a ruling?

I will say that YN wasn't lying when he said what he said he did.

Copy + Paste is fine for all card claiming, just no time stamps.

YN's card did this: Name a Dominion card. You'll be told which player(s) have that card in their hand. You'll be told 'None' if no one has that card, or that card isn't in the game.

[Captain_Frisk]

It makes me invulnerable to any night actions.

So then PPS must have played it, and whoever did the kill must have used a strong man?

[ashersky]

It makes me invulnerable to any night actions.

So then PPS must have played it, and whoever did the kill must have used a strong man?

Makes sense.  Our D1 planning probably would have worried scum that doctoring, etc. would get in the way of NKing, and after a no lynch, they really needed someone to die.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok, so that leaves us with 2 players who are confirmed to have 3 cards in hand.

Does anyone have reason to believe that anyone who's described their card abilities is lying?

[Robz888]

Ok, so that leaves us with 2 players who are confirmed to have 3 cards in hand.

Does anyone have reason to believe that anyone who's described their card abilities is lying?

No...

[Dsell]

If my lynch is a foregone conclusion, I might as well revea that the alchemy card in my hand is Philosopher's Stone and if there are 20 or more cards in the discard I can skip the next night and go straight to the next day after the lynch.

Could you clarify what you mean here? Bolded part is confusing me.

I play the card and then the next day after the lynch, we get the flip and then go into another day, skipping the night entirely. But I can only use it if 20 or more cards have been used. So they're in the discard or trash or whatever the pile where they go is called.

[Robz888]

If my lynch is a foregone conclusion, I might as well revea that the alchemy card in my hand is Philosopher's Stone and if there are 20 or more cards in the discard I can skip the next night and go straight to the next day after the lynch.

Could you clarify what you mean here? Bolded part is confusing me.

I play the card and then the next day after the lynch, we get the flip and then go into another day, skipping the night entirely. But I can only use it if 20 or more cards have been used. So they're in the discard or trash or whatever the pile where they go is called.

Oh, I forgot about this. Dsell might be lying here, because I believe him to be scum. And this could be a card (relatively powerful) that scum makes up so we keep him alive.

[Eevee]

I have told everything I know already.

[Captain_Frisk]

It makes me invulnerable to any night actions.

So then PPS must have played it, and whoever did the kill must have used a strong man?

Makes sense.  Our D1 planning probably would have worried scum that doctoring, etc. would get in the way of NKing, and after a no lynch, they really needed someone to die.

Were you really worried about day 1 random doctoring?  Myself, I'd be more worried about tracking / watching etc., but maybe thats just my experience from the last RMM game.

[Captain_Frisk]

I have told everything I know already.

Any thoughts?  Want to hunt some scum?

[Robz888]

I have told everything I know already.

Any thoughts?  Want to hunt some scum?

Want to lynch some Dsell.

[Captain_Frisk]

I have told everything I know already.

Any thoughts?  Want to hunt some scum?

Want to lynch some Dsell.

Whats the hurry?

[Captain_Frisk]

It makes me invulnerable to any night actions.

Are you going to claim the sets remaining in your hand?

[Robz888]

I have told everything I know already.

Any thoughts?  Want to hunt some scum?

Want to lynch some Dsell.

Whats the hurry?

There isn't any.

[Dsell]

If my lynch is a foregone conclusion, I might as well revea that the alchemy card in my hand is Philosopher's Stone and if there are 20 or more cards in the discard I can skip the next night and go straight to the next day after the lynch.

Could you clarify what you mean here? Bolded part is confusing me.

I play the card and then the next day after the lynch, we get the flip and then go into another day, skipping the night entirely. But I can only use it if 20 or more cards have been used. So they're in the discard or trash or whatever the pile where they go is called.

Oh, I forgot about this. Dsell might be lying here, because I believe him to be scum. And this could be a card (relatively powerful) that scum makes up so we keep him alive.

I'm not even really asking you to keep me alive here; I'm telling you that lynching me is a bad idea but obviously you cannot know that. And I totally realize that this situation makes me look like scum, but it's early enough that we can probably afford a mislynch without it being a big deal. I am baffled about the 3 vs 4 card thing but obviously there must be an explanation within the game.

As for the card itself, it does seem pretty strong but I could also see it being pretty negative utility. Ordinarily there will be a lot more town night actions than scum night actions, but obviously skipping a NK is hugely powerful.

[ashersky]

It makes me invulnerable to any night actions.

So then PPS must have played it, and whoever did the kill must have used a strong man?

Makes sense.  Our D1 planning probably would have worried scum that doctoring, etc. would get in the way of NKing, and after a no lynch, they really needed someone to die.

Were you really worried about day 1 random doctoring?  Myself, I'd be more worried about tracking / watching etc., but maybe thats just my experience from the last RMM game.

There was some definitely "use protective powers" talk heading into the night.  So I think mafia worried.  I didn't worry about anything, of course, not sure of your pronoun choice there.

[Archetype]

Qvist is not voting if I remember correctly.

The deadline is last month?

Here's the updated, error free, version:

Vote Count 2.1:

Dsell (4) -- Young Nick, jotheonah, Galzria, cayvie {L-2}

Not Voting (7) -- Eevee, Dsell, Robz888, Morgrim7, Captain_Frisk, ashersky, Qvist

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 lynch deadline is Monday, December 3rd, at 9:00 PM forum time.

[ashersky]

How sure are we on Dsell?

[Young Nick]

How sure are we on Dsell?

Until there's some justification for why joth sees three cards in his hand but Dsell claims to have four, pretty sure.

It just sounds like Dsell is lying to cover his tracks, but the lie looks like a bad one to me.

[Robz888]

Vote: Dsell, since there is one more until hammer.

[Captain_Frisk]

@Qvist

As the organizer of community rankings, you are accutely aware of the relative strengths of cards.

Would you care to explain why you selected not one, but two "underpowered cards"?

@RobZ
Were you stuck with the scout, or did you go out of your way to pick it?

[Captain_Frisk]

Vote: Dsell, since there is one more until hammer.

RobZ - is there any reason why you're pushing so hard?  Don't you want to learn possibly confirmed townies from joth and I?

[Captain_Frisk]

Will someone unvote before something stupid happens?

[ashersky]

I could derphammer if that is what you mean.

[Dsell]

I could derphammer if that is what you mean.

I'm fairly confident that's the opposite of what he means.

[Young Nick]

Will someone unvote before something stupid happens?

You are leading the town but acting very mysterious with short posts that look to be from mobile. If you have something to say, might as well say it before the day ends or tell us when you will be at a computer to do so. All of these single-sentence posts make it hard to follow your train of thought.

Also, for someone who is leading town, you are quite good at forgetting what has already been stated (like me claiming WW and Eevee claiming TR).

[Young Nick]

Unvote because I treat you to well, C_F.

[Galzria]

What confirmed CF as town? I've got my investigation on Joth, but I think I missed somebody clearing CF.

[Captain_Frisk]

Will someone unvote before something stupid happens?

You are leading the town but acting very mysterious with short posts that look to be from mobile. If you have something to say, might as well say it before the day ends or tell us when you will be at a computer to do so. All of these single-sentence posts make it hard to follow your train of thought.

Also, for someone who is leading town, you are quite good at forgetting what has already been stated (like me claiming WW and Eevee claiming TR).

I'm at my machine now.  I just don't think we should hastily lynch 7 days in advance of deadline when there's plenty to discuss.

[ashersky]

I'll second the motion to have Frisk share.  Cryptic speak is anti-town.  Either you can share or you can't.  It isn't scummy to keep some info back due to timing, protection townies, etc.

PPE--Galz's point stands to be answered by whatever info it is CF says he has.

[Dsell]

What confirmed CF as town? I've got my investigation on Joth, but I think I missed somebody clearing CF.

I missed this too, was thinking the same thing.

[Captain_Frisk]

What confirmed CF as town? I've got my investigation on Joth, but I think I missed somebody clearing CF.

I'm not clear, but I did play a spy last night, which gives me all sorts of information.  I'd like to make maximum use of this info, because its not like i have any more spies in my hand.

I seem to remember that you have in the past done similar things - held back on investigation results to see if you could catch someone in a lie.

[Galzria]

What confirmed CF as town? I've got my investigation on Joth, but I think I missed somebody clearing CF.

I'm not clear, but I did play a spy last night, which gives me all sorts of information.  I'd like to make maximum use of this info, because its not like i have any more spies in my hand.

I seem to remember that you have in the past done similar things - held back on investigation results to see if you could catch someone in a lie.

I don't mind what you're doing at all - it was mainly the following comment that threw me for a loop:

Vote: Dsell, since there is one more until hammer.

RobZ - is there any reason why you're pushing so hard?  Don't you want to learn possibly confirmed townies from joth and I?

Although perhaps I misread what you meant? It sounded like you were calling yourself and Joth confirmed town - which I realized you "are" to yourself, but I thought there was something more that the rest of us could follow. However, it seems on re-reading that perhaps you meant "Perhaps Joth and I can clear more townies"? I'm not sure. I just wanted to know if I missed somebody clearing you, since I didn't recall it.

[Captain_Frisk]

Yeah - I'm just saying that even if we knew that DSell was 100% scum, I still haven't revealed, and as such we shouldn't end the day.

I don't see any compelling reason to reveal at this time, so I'm not - hence my plea for unvotes to prevent loss of information.

[Robz888]

@Qvist

As the organizer of community rankings, you are accutely aware of the relative strengths of cards.

Would you care to explain why you selected not one, but two "underpowered cards"?

@RobZ
Were you stuck with the scout, or did you go out of your way to pick it?

I judged that the best use of my available cards was to play Scout.

Look, I'm not opposed to having more discussion, obviously. Nor am I opposed to Frisk's inquisition. But like, if I said, "Nah, man, Scout's all I got. My hand sucks" or "I'm saving the really good stuff for tonight" that would be helping scum decide who to kill. I'm in favor of revealing stuff that will help box scum into a corner, but this specific question seems like the answer doesn't benefit town much, but potentially really helps scum. So perhaps if you could give us more of the rationale behind your line of questioning...?

[Captain_Frisk]

@Qvist

As the organizer of community rankings, you are accutely aware of the relative strengths of cards.

Would you care to explain why you selected not one, but two "underpowered cards"?

@RobZ
Were you stuck with the scout, or did you go out of your way to pick it?

I judged that the best use of my available cards was to play Scout.

Look, I'm not opposed to having more discussion, obviously. Nor am I opposed to Frisk's inquisition. But like, if I said, "Nah, man, Scout's all I got. My hand sucks" or "I'm saving the really good stuff for tonight" that would be helping scum decide who to kill. I'm in favor of revealing stuff that will help box scum into a corner, but this specific question seems like the answer doesn't benefit town much, but potentially really helps scum. So perhaps if you could give us more of the rationale behind your line of questioning...?

I was more curious about the draft order of your scout.  Were you forced to take it because it was passed to you?

[Robz888]

@Qvist

As the organizer of community rankings, you are accutely aware of the relative strengths of cards.

Would you care to explain why you selected not one, but two "underpowered cards"?

@RobZ
Were you stuck with the scout, or did you go out of your way to pick it?

I judged that the best use of my available cards was to play Scout.

Look, I'm not opposed to having more discussion, obviously. Nor am I opposed to Frisk's inquisition. But like, if I said, "Nah, man, Scout's all I got. My hand sucks" or "I'm saving the really good stuff for tonight" that would be helping scum decide who to kill. I'm in favor of revealing stuff that will help box scum into a corner, but this specific question seems like the answer doesn't benefit town much, but potentially really helps scum. So perhaps if you could give us more of the rationale behind your line of questioning...?

I was more curious about the draft order of your scout.  Were you forced to take it because it was passed to you?

No, I chose it. Thought it might be really powerful, in a fun inversion of RL Scout.

It's not.

[Captain_Frisk]

What concerns me is that you announced your scout targets after your targets had already named what they did (or it was derivable per cayvie).

[Robz888]

What concerns me is that you announced your scout targets after your targets had already named what they did (or it was derivable per cayvie).

Yeah, they just beat me to the punch. I was around only intermittently these past few days.

[Captain_Frisk]

What concerns me is that you announced your scout targets after your targets had already named what they did (or it was derivable per cayvie).

Yeah, they just beat me to the punch. I was around only intermittently these past few days.

What is the other intrigue card in your hand?

[Robz888]

What concerns me is that you announced your scout targets after your targets had already named what they did (or it was derivable per cayvie).

Yeah, they just beat me to the punch. I was around only intermittently these past few days.

What is the other intrigue card in your hand?

Another Scout. Yes, I chose two of them.

[Eevee]

What concerns me is that you announced your scout targets after your targets had already named what they did (or it was derivable per cayvie).

Yeah, they just beat me to the punch. I was around only intermittently these past few days.

What is the other intrigue card in your hand?

Another Scout. Yes, I chose two of them.

Maybe you should have hedged your bets?

[Robz888]

Well, I didn't.

I did think that if I ever had to "prove my Hand," it would be believed that Robz888 has two Scouts.

[Eevee]

Hedging comment was obviously a joke. Boo at me not being funny!

I did think that if I ever had to "prove my Hand," it would be believed that Robz888 has two Scouts.

Heh. This looks so much like a scum slip, I think scum-Robz would actually be more likely to self-censure it away. Town-Robz's devil-may-care attitude has gotten him lynched before. But who the hell knows with this guy.

[ashersky]

Clearly Scout combos well with a second Scout.  I believe when Robz pays it, the forumiverse will explode.

[Captain_Frisk]

Hedging comment was obviously a joke. Boo at me not being funny!

I did think that if I ever had to "prove my Hand," it would be believed that Robz888 has two Scouts.

Heh. This looks so much like a scum slip, I think scum-Robz would actually be more likely to self-censure it away. Town-Robz's devil-may-care attitude has gotten him lynched before. But who the hell knows with this guy.

Can the person to robz's left confirm 2 scouts?

[Dsell]

Hedging comment was obviously a joke. Boo at me not being funny!

I did think that if I ever had to "prove my Hand," it would be believed that Robz888 has two Scouts.

Heh. This looks so much like a scum slip, I think scum-Robz would actually be more likely to self-censure it away. Town-Robz's devil-may-care attitude has gotten him lynched before. But who the hell knows with this guy.

Can the person to robz's left confirm 2 scouts?

It is me, and actually I cannot.

[Captain_Frisk]

Also, morgrim, can I get the actual card description of secret chamber?

[Dsell]

Hedging comment was obviously a joke. Boo at me not being funny!

I did think that if I ever had to "prove my Hand," it would be believed that Robz888 has two Scouts.

Heh. This looks so much like a scum slip, I think scum-Robz would actually be more likely to self-censure it away. Town-Robz's devil-may-care attitude has gotten him lynched before. But who the hell knows with this guy.

Can the person to robz's left confirm 2 scouts?

It is me, and actually I cannot.

I can account for one of them, so it's possible that one of them was in his starting hand.

[Captain_Frisk]

Hedging comment was obviously a joke. Boo at me not being funny!

I did think that if I ever had to "prove my Hand," it would be believed that Robz888 has two Scouts.

Heh. This looks so much like a scum slip, I think scum-Robz would actually be more likely to self-censure it away. Town-Robz's devil-may-care attitude has gotten him lynched before. But who the hell knows with this guy.

Can the person to robz's left confirm 2 scouts?

It is me, and actually I cannot.

Anyone but you.  Crap. I'm going to bed.

[ashersky]

when someone to your left or right dies, are we informed of who is now next to us?  If so, when?

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm not sure I believe robz, but there is a scout in the discard pile.  It had to get there somewhere, right?

[ashersky]

when someone to your left or right dies, are we informed of who is now next to us?  If so, when?

So we could fairly easily determine the seating chart if we wanted to.  Would that be of use?   I know where 4 of us are seated at this point.

[Robz888]

I'm not sure I believe robz, but there is a scout in the discard pile.  It had to get there somewhere, right?

Sad. That you'd be sure to believe me was much of the basis for picking it.

[Eevee]

I'm not sure I believe robz, but there is a scout in the discard pile.  It had to get there somewhere, right?

Seems obvious no one is lying about the cards they played, because no one has counterclaimed anyone and all the cards are accounted for? Right?

[Qvist]

@Qvist

As the organizer of community rankings, you are accutely aware of the relative strengths of cards.

Would you care to explain why you selected not one, but two "underpowered cards"?

@RobZ
Were you stuck with the scout, or did you go out of your way to pick it?

Yeah, that's easy. Navigator is the only card that would give me a better effect if outposted.

[Qvist]

I mean there's noone suspicious beside Dsell. And his Philosopher's Stone seems to be a lie, IMO.
CF, I suggest you say what you have to say and then let's lynch Dsell.
I don't understand why you try to delay this decision.

[Qvist]

@Qvist

As the organizer of community rankings, you are accutely aware of the relative strengths of cards.

Would you care to explain why you selected not one, but two "underpowered cards"?

@RobZ
Were you stuck with the scout, or did you go out of your way to pick it?

Yeah, that's easy. Navigator is the only card that would give me a better effect if outposted.

Ah, wait. I think you meant with "selected" the draft phase not the Day 1, right?
First of all, I'm pretty sure that the cards' strength aren't similar to the actual cards, only the function.
Navigator was I think the first card I chose because there weren't so interesting in general and I thought Navigator may give us inspection what is great to use on the first turn. And it was.
Outpost seemed pretty strong. I thought we might get an extra day or I get an extra vote or something like that.

[cayvie]

I'm not sure I believe robz, but there is a scout in the discard pile.  It had to get there somewhere, right?

Seems obvious no one is lying about the cards they played, because no one has counterclaimed anyone and all the cards are accounted for? Right?

Galzria could be

[ashersky]

when someone to your left or right dies, are we informed of who is now next to us?  If so, when?

So we could fairly easily determine the seating chart if we wanted to.  Would that be of use?   I know where 4 of us are seated at this point.

So no thoughts on this?

[cayvie]

when someone to your left or right dies, are we informed of who is now next to us?  If so, when?

So we could fairly easily determine the seating chart if we wanted to.  Would that be of use?   I know where 4 of us are seated at this point.

So no thoughts on this?

i guess i don't see why not

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm not sure I believe robz, but there is a scout in the discard pile.  It had to get there somewhere, right?

Sad. That you'd be sure to believe me was much of the basis for picking it.

But you picked it twice!!

[jotheonah]

So Frisk, both the people you spied on had 4 cards?

This bothers me because it's a little too easy. If Galz had a straight up alignment investigation, and you and I each had what amounts to a double-alignment investigation, that's way too many cops.  three cards vs four should be a scum tell, but it kind of seems like a glaring issue with the setup.

Thoughts?

[Captain_Frisk]

So Frisk, both the people you spied on had 4 cards?

This bothers me because it's a little too easy. If Galz had a straight up alignment investigation, and you and I each had what amounts to a double-alignment investigation, that's way too many cops.  three cards vs four should be a scum tell, but it kind of seems like a glaring issue with the setup.

Thoughts?

So I spied on Morgrim and RobZ.  Morgrim to cross him off the list so that we wouldn't have to deal with that again day 2, and RobZ for the way he was pushing the Morgrim lynch.

RobZ (actually "target 2") had 4 cards in hand, one of them was scout.  I'm in no way convinced that he's telling the truth.  He could be "right" on what scout does (because he has it in hand), but because he waited to release the info, he just picked targets that he knew what they did.  Additionally, I feel that selecting the same card twice is poor play (why put all your eggs in one basket?).  The 4 cards in hand + the discarded scout that he claimed do fit with his set claimed hand.  I won't out them because I don't know that its pro town.

Morgrim (target 1) had 0 cards in hand.  His claim of "immune to all night actions" is somewhat plausible.  I would have expected to received a "no result" in that situation rather than "no cards in hand", but every mod does things differently.

If secret chamber was a redirecting role, I could believe that he redirected me to pingpongsam, who had no cards in hand because he was dead.... but this is a stretch as well.

None of these conspiracy theories explain why there is a scout in the discard pile... unless secret chamber discards cards from hand....

@eevee - we do not know that everyone is telling the truth.  Clearly Dsell is either lying, or someone lied about what their cards did.

[Captain_Frisk]

Archetype has refused to clarify whether my result on morgrim is consistent with immunity / roleblocking.

[jotheonah]

Well, the real secret chamber lets you discard cards for money. Maybe Morgrim ditched all his cards for some kind of benefit.

But it's more likely he was investigation immune.

Either way, that doesn't clear him as town at all.

[Captain_Frisk]

Well, the real secret chamber lets you discard cards for money. Maybe Morgrim ditched all his cards for some kind of benefit.

But it's more likely he was investigation immune.

Either way, that doesn't clear him as town at all.

Why would you play this card as town?

[Qvist]

Ok, then I can reveal whom I targetted with my second Navigator. It was Robz. I saw that a Spy was played on him, so this makes CF believable too.
And @CF: Like I said. I saw that Dsell was targetted with a Scout. And Robz confirmed that, so I don't understand that why you can't believe that Robz might have 2 Scouts. Also it can be true that he received a Scout as his 5th card and therefore had no other choice.

The only thing we have so far is the joth vs. Dsell thing. I think we should kill Dsell and if he really should be town kill joth tomorrow.
The Morgrim case is strange, but it's hard to get conclusions out of it.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok, then I can reveal whom I targetted with my second Navigator. It was Robz. I saw that a Spy was played on him, so this makes CF believable too.
And @CF: Like I said. I saw that Dsell was targetted with a Scout. And Robz confirmed that, so I don't understand that why you can't believe that Robz might have 2 Scouts. Also it can be true that he received a Scout as his 5th card and therefore had no other choice.

The only thing we have so far is the joth vs. Dsell thing. I think we should kill Dsell and if he really should be town kill joth tomorrow.
The Morgrim case is strange, but it's hard to get conclusions out of it.

So if outpost does what you say it does, then it is strictly better than throne room?

[Captain_Frisk]

The Morgrim case is strange, but it's hard to get conclusions out of it.

Yeah, this is the nature of morgrim that I was attempting to clear up.

[Qvist]

Ok, then I can reveal whom I targetted with my second Navigator. It was Robz. I saw that a Spy was played on him, so this makes CF believable too.
And @CF: Like I said. I saw that Dsell was targetted with a Scout. And Robz confirmed that, so I don't understand that why you can't believe that Robz might have 2 Scouts. Also it can be true that he received a Scout as his 5th card and therefore had no other choice.

The only thing we have so far is the joth vs. Dsell thing. I think we should kill Dsell and if he really should be town kill joth tomorrow.
The Morgrim case is strange, but it's hard to get conclusions out of it.

So if outpost does what you say it does, then it is strictly better than throne room?

No, it says that I can target two players in the same night, not that I'm able to play a card twice over two turns. That's a difference. So I couldn't target the same player if I wanted to (not that it made sense with Navigator). I think it is a superior card, but not strictly.

[Qvist]

Well, the real secret chamber lets you discard cards for money. Maybe Morgrim ditched all his cards for some kind of benefit.

But it's more likely he was investigation immune.

Either way, that doesn't clear him as town at all.

Why would you play this card as town?

PPS did it.

[Captain_Frisk]

Well, the real secret chamber lets you discard cards for money. Maybe Morgrim ditched all his cards for some kind of benefit.

But it's more likely he was investigation immune.

Either way, that doesn't clear him as town at all.

Why would you play this card as town?

PPS did it.

Only if we assume that secret chamber does what morgrim says it did.  We've already seen some cards cover other cards (sage / rats)

[jotheonah]

If it makes him everything immune (including nightkills), I absolutely would play it as town.

But pps played it and died, so that suddenly seems unlikely. I would say Morgrim looks scummy here. But not as scummy as Dsell.

[jotheonah]

Also, we talked about vigging Morgrim yesterday. I absolutely would have used a self-protection ability if I were him.

[Robz888]

Frisk, I had a hand of 5 cards last night, so I don't know what you're talking about. I only have 4 unique Cards, though.

[Captain_Frisk]

Frisk, I had a hand of 5 cards last night, so I don't know what you're talking about. I only have 4 unique Cards, though.

I am taking the results to indicate the cards remaining in your hand - based on the joth results as well.

I observed you to have 1 scount + 3 other cards.

So we either have to believe that you willingly chose scout twice (and one with your FIRST PICK)

or

Somehow another scout ended up in the discard pile and you're a lying scum who didn't play a card last night.

Neither scenario is especially compelling to me.

[Captain_Frisk]

@DSell, how many cards did RobZ have to pick from when you passed him the scout?

[Robz888]

Frisk, I had a hand of 5 cards last night, so I don't know what you're talking about. I only have 4 unique Cards, though.

I am taking the results to indicate the cards remaining in your hand - based on the joth results as well.

I observed you to have 1 scount + 3 other cards.

So we either have to believe that you willingly chose scout twice (and one with your FIRST PICK)

or

Somehow another scout ended up in the discard pile and you're a lying scum who didn't play a card last night.

Neither scenario is especially compelling to me.

Oh, well Jesus Christ, Frisk. Yes, I have Scout + 3 other Cards. Why on earth is this hard to believe? I did not expect Card strength in this game to correlate to Card strength in real Dominion, really. Did you? I sort of just grabbed willy-nilly, and I thought that MAYBE Scout would be super good, as a sort of ode to my public campaign on the forum to have Scout recognized as the "best" Dominion card.

[Captain_Frisk]

Oh, well Jesus Christ, Frisk. Yes, I have Scout + 3 other Cards. Why on earth is this hard to believe? I did not expect Card strength in this game to correlate to Card strength in real Dominion, really. Did you? I sort of just grabbed willy-nilly, and I thought that MAYBE Scout would be super good, as a sort of ode to my public campaign on the forum to have Scout recognized as the "best" Dominion card.

Language!

One scout, sure.  2?  Especially when you didn't reference having 2 at all when I questioned you.

[Robz888]

Oh, well Jesus Christ, Frisk. Yes, I have Scout + 3 other Cards. Why on earth is this hard to believe? I did not expect Card strength in this game to correlate to Card strength in real Dominion, really. Did you? I sort of just grabbed willy-nilly, and I thought that MAYBE Scout would be super good, as a sort of ode to my public campaign on the forum to have Scout recognized as the "best" Dominion card.

Language!

One scout, sure.  2?  Especially when you didn't reference having 2 at all when I questioned you.

Why not pick two of the Card that everyone thinks is my favorite Card? You should know that roughly 10% of my Isotropic games begin with the other player typing in the chat window: "Sorry, no Scout for you in this game," or "I better watch out, we're playing with Scout!" Shockingly, I'm famous.

[jotheonah]

Frisk, I don't think picking two Scouts is a scum or town tell for Robz. It's null. And I totally believe he did it. I think if he could have drafted a hand of five Scouts, he would have.

[Captain_Frisk]

Frisk, I don't think picking two Scouts is a scum or town tell for Robz. It's null. And I totally believe he did it. I think if he could have drafted a hand of five Scouts, he would have.

I agree, except there's all the other factors. (Targets selected that had already claimed, trying to push for a dsell lynch before we've had a chance to talk, person to his left can only collaborate 1 scout)

[Robz888]

Frisk, I don't think picking two Scouts is a scum or town tell for Robz. It's null. And I totally believe he did it. I think if he could have drafted a hand of five Scouts, he would have.

I agree, except there's all the other factors. (Targets selected that had already claimed, trying to push for a dsell lynch before we've had a chance to talk, person to his left can only collaborate 1 scout)

I also built the shaky case on Dsell yesterday, so for me, it's like all my intuitions are about to be confirmed.

[Captain_Frisk]

Frisk, I don't think picking two Scouts is a scum or town tell for Robz. It's null. And I totally believe he did it. I think if he could have drafted a hand of five Scouts, he would have.

I agree, except there's all the other factors. (Targets selected that had already claimed, trying to push for a dsell lynch before we've had a chance to talk, person to his left can only collaborate 1 scout)

I also built the shaky case on Dsell yesterday, so for me, it's like all my intuitions are about to be confirmed.

I actually think I prefer a DSell lynch today, but I just can't get past this "lets just lynch him and be done with it attitude"

Am I the only one who finds this concerning?

[Robz888]

Frisk, I don't think picking two Scouts is a scum or town tell for Robz. It's null. And I totally believe he did it. I think if he could have drafted a hand of five Scouts, he would have.

I agree, except there's all the other factors. (Targets selected that had already claimed, trying to push for a dsell lynch before we've had a chance to talk, person to his left can only collaborate 1 scout)

I also built the shaky case on Dsell yesterday, so for me, it's like all my intuitions are about to be confirmed.

I actually think I prefer a DSell lynch today, but I just can't get past this "lets just lynch him and be done with it attitude"

Am I the only one who finds this concerning?

What's the point of asking that? Presumably if people shared your concerns, they would voice them. "Can I get away with continuing to make something out of nothing?" is what you're really asking.

[Captain_Frisk]

What's the point of asking that? Presumably if people shared your concerns, they would voice them. "Can I get away with continuing to make something out of nothing?" is what you're really asking.

Why would I want to do that?  I'm just surprised that no-one else is concerned about someone pressuring to lynch in < 24 hours.

I mean - this is so over the top scummy that I can't even believe that you'd do it - and you bussed me Day 1!

[Dsell]

What's the point of asking that? Presumably if people shared your concerns, they would voice them. "Can I get away with continuing to make something out of nothing?" is what you're really asking.

Making something of nothing was the entirety of your case on me yesterday, so the pot calling the kettle black a bit here.

Frisk, Robz had scout and one other choice.

[Captain_Frisk]

@DSell -

Will you claim the order that you drafted your cards in? 

[Dsell]

Yeah, I'm willing if a couple more people think I should.

[Captain_Frisk]

Really, I just want to know if anyone can validate that you have a p-stone in your hand.

Or did you pick it up with your first card?

[Dsell]

It was my first card.

[Captain_Frisk]

Vote: DSell

[Galzria]

It was my first card.

Buddy, if you flip town, I'll nominate you for this year's "worst luck" award, hosted by Ozle.

If indeed you're telling the truth, then so very many things have stacked uncontrollably against you.

However, I don't think you're town.

[Captain_Frisk]

That's L-1 for those not paying attention.

[Qvist]

I'm paying attention. Vote: Dsell

[Dsell]

That was a very prolonged time at L-2 or L-1.

[Captain_Frisk]

Are you proud?  Hoping for a record?

[Eevee]

So Dsell is dead?

[Dsell]

Are you proud?  Hoping for a record?

I'm just commenting, sheesh.

[Captain_Frisk]

So was RobZ doing his bus thing?

I mean, clearly all these cops about is just straight unfair to scum, you might as well give your mates up and end the game and get in another one, right?

[Dsell]

So was RobZ doing his bus thing?

I mean, clearly all these cops about is just straight unfair to scum, you might as well give your mates up and end the game and get in another one, right?

Wouldn't you like to know!

[jotheonah]

This might be a record for me for pegging scum day 1. Wish we'd done the lynch then, wouldn't have had to waste an investigative ability.

Do we want to set claim what we're using tomorrow before the curtain falls?

[Dsell]

Things are falling fast!

[jotheonah]

Cause I actually have no idea what card I'll play tonight, all told.

[Galzria]

This might be a record for me for pegging scum day 1. Wish we'd done the lynch then, wouldn't have had to waste an investigative ability.

Do we want to set claim what we're using tomorrow before the curtain falls?

Dark Ages

[Dsell]

Cause I actually have no idea what card I'll play tonight, all told.

Play the one I gave you!

[Robz888]

This might be a record for me for pegging scum day 1. Wish we'd done the lynch then, wouldn't have had to waste an investigative ability.

Do we want to set claim what we're using tomorrow before the curtain falls?

Hey, I get some credit, too! Of course Frisk thinks I'm busing.

Not sure what set I'm using. Probably Prosperity, but don't hold me to that.

[jotheonah]

Cause I actually have no idea what card I'll play tonight, all told.

Play the one I gave you!

On Robz?

[Dsell]

This might be a record for me for pegging scum day 1. Wish we'd done the lynch then, wouldn't have had to waste an investigative ability.

Do we want to set claim what we're using tomorrow before the curtain falls?

Hey, I get some credit, too! Of course Frisk thinks I'm busing.

Not sure what set I'm using. Probably Prosperity, but don't hold me to that.

Credit for what? A town lynch?

[Robz888]

This might be a record for me for pegging scum day 1. Wish we'd done the lynch then, wouldn't have had to waste an investigative ability.

Do we want to set claim what we're using tomorrow before the curtain falls?

Hey, I get some credit, too! Of course Frisk thinks I'm busing.

Not sure what set I'm using. Probably Prosperity, but don't hold me to that.

Credit for what? A town lynch?

Oh, you are flipping scum.

[Qvist]

I probably play Seaside tonight, again.

[Captain_Frisk]

I will also probably play seaside.

[Dsell]

This might be a record for me for pegging scum day 1. Wish we'd done the lynch then, wouldn't have had to waste an investigative ability.

Do we want to set claim what we're using tomorrow before the curtain falls?

Hey, I get some credit, too! Of course Frisk thinks I'm busing.

Not sure what set I'm using. Probably Prosperity, but don't hold me to that.

Credit for what? A town lynch?

Oh, you are flipping scum.

Are you calling me scum? How rude. How would you like it if I called you goose liver? Or the grime between my toes?

[Dsell]

Man, a LOT of seaside going around here!

[Captain_Frisk]

Man, a LOT of seaside going around here!

Who are your scumreads?

[Dsell]

Fellow scum: forget the treasure map plan, it's not going to work.

[Dsell]

Man, a LOT of seaside going around here!

Who are your scumreads?

Everyone who suspected me, of course!

[Dsell]

You aren't gonna make me talk to myself as I go to my lynch are you? That's no fun!

[Captain_Frisk]

Fellow scum: forget the treasure map plan, it's not going to work.

Aren't you obligated to troll us for the maximum amount of time to maximize the stress of the flip?

I'm going to go find some of your posts and un +1 them.

[Robz888]

Fellow scum: forget the treasure map plan, it's not going to work.

I'm assuming there's no reason for you to say this as town.

[Dsell]

Fellow scum: forget the treasure map plan, it's not going to work.

Aren't you obligated to troll us for the maximum amount of time to maximize the stress of the flip?

I'm going to go find some of your posts and un +1 them.

You guys must have been so full of angst!! Or...did you actually know? Hmm.

[Dsell]

Fellow scum: forget the treasure map plan, it's not going to work.

I'm assuming there's no reason for you to say this as town.

Who wrote that??? I'm town!!

[Dsell]

Fellow scum: forget the treasure map plan, it's not going to work.

I'm assuming there's no reason for you to say this as town.

Who wrote that??? I'm town!!

Who is hacking my account?? I knew I shouldn't have made my password 1234.

[Robz888]

Bet it really upset you when Jo and I nailed you on Day 1. Man, that could have been my first Day 1 scum lynch!

[Dsell]

Bet it really upset you when Jo and I nailed you on Day 1. Man, that could have been my first Day 1 scum lynch!

I've nailed scum Day 1 in like...most of my RMM games. But then I never live to the end! And no one believes me Day 1 either! I bet I nailed scum here, too! It's like I have a 6th sense!

[Dsell]

Bet it really upset you when Jo and I nailed you on Day 1. Man, that could have been my first Day 1 scum lynch!

But trust me, I don't get upset when I'm bussed cases are made against me.

[jotheonah]

I honestly don't know. Intrigue probably. Maybe Seaside. Maybe .. no cards at all?

[Dsell]

I honestly don't know. Intrigue probably. Maybe Seaside. Maybe .. no cards at all?

Someone's gonna get toooortuuuuured.

[Dsell]

Scumbuddies, get in here! I need to look like I'm bantering with you, too! This is like free towncred!

[Dsell]

Scumbuddies Friends and neighbors, get in here! I need to look like I'm bantering with you, too! This is like free towncred!

[jotheonah]

Scumbuddies, get in here! I need to look like I'm bantering with you, too! This is like free towncred!

When did Dsell become a hydra? And/or a schizophrenic?

[Captain_Frisk]

Where is ehunt when you need him?

[Voltgloss]

I'm tempted to ask Arch if he wants me as backup mod, to forestall extended twilights like this.

On the other hand, this is frickin' hilarious.

[Dsell]

Where is ehunt when you need him?

Dayvig: ehunt

That should do the trick.

[Dsell]

I'm tempted to ask Arch if he wants me as backup mod, to forestall extended twilights like this.

On the other hand, this is frickin' hilarious.

Thanks Volt.


In more ways than one.

[Captain_Frisk]

Where is ehunt when you need him?

Dayvig: ehunt

That should do the trick.

That totally almost worked.

[jotheonah]

true or false: Qvist's quickhammer was a fine and useful tool for town.

where has O been lately anyway?

[Dsell]

Where is ehunt when you need him?

Dayvig: ehunt

That should do the trick.

But seriously, I used my one-shot bring-someone-from-out-of-the-game-in-by-dayvigging-them-and-they'll-come-back-as-scumtown-power last night.

It was a promo.

[Captain_Frisk]

Extended twilight is the best. 

[Captain_Frisk]

true or false: Qvist's quickhammer was a fine and useful tool for town.

where has O been lately anyway?

This wasn't a quickhammer.  DSell had already claimed, and I've been saving DSell for nearly 24 hours now.

[Dsell]

Extended twilight is the best.

The angst! The agony!

Here now I do sit
Waiting for my lynch
I'm not a poet
But trolling's a cinch.

[Dsell]

true or false: Qvist's quickhammer was a fine and useful tool for town.

where has O been lately anyway?

This wasn't a quickhammer.  DSell had already claimed, and I've been saving DSell for nearly 24 hours now.

It was a perfectly effective quickhammer! ...for scum.

[jotheonah]

Where is ehunt when you need him?

Dayvig: ehunt

That should do the trick.

But seriously, I used my one-shot bring-someone-from-out-of-the-game-in-by-dayvigging-them-and-they'll-come-back-as-scumtown-power last night.

It was a promo.

That's a really interesting effect for Walled Village to have.

[Dsell]

Where is ehunt when you need him?

Dayvig: ehunt

That should do the trick.

But seriously, I used my one-shot bring-someone-from-out-of-the-game-in-by-dayvigging-them-and-they'll-come-back-as-scumtown-power last night.

It was a promo.

That's a really interesting effect for Walled Village to have.

It's actually Black Market. It's pretty underground. You've probably never heard of it.

[Dsell]

Also, I'd like to have Voltgloss modkilled for illegal communication and conspiring to troll.

[Dsell]

Vote: Happily Ever After


Because there's no reason we can't still join hands and sing Kum-ba-yah.

[Voltgloss]

Now I'm waiting for Dsell's magic mystery card to be Governor, and stop his own lynch.

Also, I'd like to have Voltgloss modkilled for illegal communication and conspiring to troll.

[Dsell]

'Ello guv'nah! Don't want to lynch me, noooosireee.

[Dsell]

Vote: Neverending twilight and this is now a troll game

[Voltgloss]

I actually know Dsell's real hand.  Here.  I'll share.

Negotiate
Negotiate
Negotiate
Negotiate
Negotiate

[Dsell]

I actually know Dsell's real hand.  Here.  I'll share.

Negotiate
Negotiate
Negotiate
Negotiate
Negotiate

Yeah but they're ALL CROOKED DEALS!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Galzria]

Oh, you guyz!

[Galzria]

I actually know Dsell's real hand.  Here.  I'll share.

Negotiate
Negotiate
Negotiate
Negotiate
Negotiate

Damn. Best post of the past 3 pages.

We have a winner!

[Captain_Frisk]

1. ashersky
3. Young Nick
4. Morgrim7
5. Captain_Frisk
6. Robz888
7. Galzria
8. Eevee
9. jotheonah
10. cayvie
11. Qvist
12. Dsell

People voting
jotheonah, Galzria, cayvie, RobZ, CF, Qvist

People Not voting:
Young Nick, DSell, Morgrim, ashersky, eevee

Young Nick was #1 on the wagon @ votecount 2.1, but unvoted because I asked.

[Dsell]

I actually know Dsell's real hand.  Here.  I'll share.

Negotiate
Negotiate
Negotiate
Negotiate
Negotiate

Damn. Best post of the past 3 pages.

We have a winner!

I know right? Impossible to top that.

[Dsell]

1. ashersky
3. Young Nick
4. Morgrim7
5. Captain_Frisk
6. Robz888
7. Galzria
8. Eevee
9. jotheonah
10. cayvie
11. Qvist
12. Dsell

People voting
jotheonah, Galzria, cayvie, RobZ, CF, Qvist

People Not voting:
Young Nick, DSell, Morgrim, ashersky, eevee

Young Nick was #1 on the wagon @ votecount 2.1, but unvoted because I asked.

Vote: Captain_Frisk

Being unwilling to troll is a scum tell.

[Young Nick]

1. ashersky
3. Young Nick
4. Morgrim7
5. Captain_Frisk
6. Robz888
7. Galzria
8. Eevee
9. jotheonah
10. cayvie
11. Qvist
12. Dsell

People voting
jotheonah, Galzria, cayvie, RobZ, CF, Qvist

People Not voting:
Young Nick, DSell, Morgrim, ashersky, eevee

Young Nick was #1 on the wagon @ votecount 2.1, but unvoted because I asked.

Yeah I would like some credit. I was first to vote for him and have been on his case ever since, only unvoting because C_F asked me to. Even after the unvote, I still pressured Dsell.

[Dsell]

1. ashersky
3. Young Nick
4. Morgrim7
5. Captain_Frisk
6. Robz888
7. Galzria
8. Eevee
9. jotheonah
10. cayvie
11. Qvist
12. Dsell

People voting
jotheonah, Galzria, cayvie, RobZ, CF, Qvist

People Not voting:
Young Nick, DSell, Morgrim, ashersky, eevee

Young Nick was #1 on the wagon @ votecount 2.1, but unvoted because I asked.

Yeah I would like some credit. I was first to vote for him and have been on his case ever since, only unvoting because C_F asked me to. Even after the unvote, I still pressured Dsell.

But nobody gets credit when you lynch a serial killer!

[Young Nick]

Vote: Mary Jane for putting Dsell in such a goofy mood.

[Dsell]

Vote: Mary Jane for putting Dsell in such a goofy mood.

I'm only serious in mafia!

[Dsell]

SFS is spectating, he knows what I'm sayin!

[Dsell]

Everyone go sign up for my lolcats game if you haven't. That's how I'll get my revenge.

[Galzria]

[Dsell]

I have this weird feeling that nobody actually believes I'm town. Well the flip'll show you!

[Captain_Frisk]

1. ashersky
3. Young Nick
4. Morgrim7
5. Captain_Frisk
6. Robz888
7. Galzria
8. Eevee
9. jotheonah
10. cayvie
11. Qvist
12. Dsell

People voting
jotheonah, Galzria, cayvie, RobZ, CF, Qvist

People Not voting:
Young Nick, DSell, Morgrim, ashersky, eevee

Young Nick was #1 on the wagon @ votecount 2.1, but unvoted because I asked.

Yeah I would like some credit. I was first to vote for him and have been on his case ever since, only unvoting because C_F asked me to. Even after the unvote, I still pressured Dsell.

I gave you the credit!

[Young Nick]

I know, I was just seconding what you said, that's all.

[ashersky]

Do we have a plan in place for Night?  Of course everything happens while I'm asleep.

[Dsell]

Boring boring boring boring game talk is boring!! Twilight is when the trolls are supposed to come out!

[ashersky]

Also, now this is going into night, two people sign up for BLITZ VI.

[eHalcyon]

Was Dsell hammered?  I am spectating and Archetype posted in this thread earlier telling me to lock if there was a hammer. I'm not keeping vote count though...

[Dsell]

Was Dsell hammered?  I am spectating and Archetype posted in this thread earlier telling me to lock if there was a hammer. I'm not keeping vote count though...

No, I'm L-1!

Don't lock it yet!

[Captain_Frisk]

I believe he was, but I'm not going to cause mod error.

[Galzria]

Was Dsell hammered?  I am spectating and Archetype posted in this thread earlier telling me to lock if there was a hammer. I'm not keeping vote count though...

That's a terrible color. Kill it. Now. 

And I DO believe that WAS the hammer, like, 4 pages ago.

[Voltgloss]

As much fun as it is trolling, yes, there was a hammer.  Here's the final votecount:

Vote Count 2.2:

Dsell (6) -- jotheonah, Galzria, cayvie, Robz888, Captain_Frisk, Qvist

Not Voting (5) -- Eevee, Dsell, Morgrim7, ashersky, Young Nick

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

[eHalcyon]

Was Dsell hammered?  I am spectating and Archetype posted in this thread earlier telling me to lock if there was a hammer. I'm not keeping vote count though...

That's a terrible color. Kill it. Now. 

And I DO believe that WAS the hammer, like, 4 pages ago.

OK then, as per Archetype's request,

THREAD LOCKED.

[Archetype]

Was Dsell hammered?  I am spectating and Archetype posted in this thread earlier telling me to lock if there was a hammer. I'm not keeping vote count though...

That's a terrible color. Kill it. Now. 

And I DO believe that WAS the hammer, like, 4 pages ago.

OK then, as per Archetype's request,

THREAD LOCKED.

Thank you eHalc.

Voltgloss, you can be troll/thread-locker if I'm not here.

[Archetype]

"Dsell loves to break rules!" Everyone screamed angrily, "Let's throw him out!"

All players (well, except 5) grab onto Dsell's chair and marched him towards the back door.

"I locked it! You guys can never throw me out!"

"Luckily, Archetype told me of the key he keeps in his hanging plant," someone remarked, pulling out a key from an overhead plant.

"Noooooooo!" Dsell screamed, "I'll-I'll use my Philosopher's Stone on you guys!"

"Too late!" Someone screamed.

With a group heave, they tossed him out the door.

"You'll pay! Just you wait, I'll have my lolcats get you all!"

--
Vote Count 2.2:

Dsell (6) -- jotheonah, Galzria, cayvie, Robz888, Captain_Frisk, Qvist

Not Voting (5) -- Eevee, Dsell, Morgrim7, ashersky, Young Nick

--

Dsell, the Mafia-aligned player has been lynched. Upon returning to the table, all players took a glance at his hand. There they found a Smugglers, Tactician and a Cutpurse These cards will be moved to the Trash Pile at the start of the next day.

--

"Scum hunting is tiring work" Someone remarked.

"Let's take a break,"

Break 2 has begun!
You guys have 48 hours to submit your night actions.

Thread really, really Locked

[Archetype]

Mafia, after being killed, have 2 options:

1. Are allowed to post in their Mafia QT at night.

2. Gain access to the Spec QT.

Mafia can choose 1 of these, but you will not know which one they chose.

[Archetype]

If you have a really, really big problem with this potential choice, feel free to PM me.

[eHalcyon]

Thank you eHalc.

Voltgloss, you can be troll/thread-locker if I'm not here.

I will limit myself, but I may occasionally post again in obnoxious colours.

[Archetype]

Thank you eHalc.

Voltgloss, you can be troll/thread-locker if I'm not here.

I will limit myself, but I may occasionally post again in obnoxious colours.

Great!

[Archetype]

Mafia, after being killed, have 2 options:

1. Are allowed to post in their Mafia QT at night.

2. Gain access to the Spec QT.

Mafia can choose 1 of these, but you will not know which one they chose.

^The above post is a lie. Dead Mafia will immediately be given the Spec QT and will no longer be able to influence their fellow scum.

[Archetype]

Thread now actually locked (thanks again theory).

24 hours left, still missing some night actions.

[Archetype]

"You always hoard the mustard dip!" Eevee said angrily, "I can't eat these mini sausages dry! I need some sauce to liven them up!"

One of the rule breakers shrugged his shoulders, grabbed a sausage, and scooped out a hearty helping of mustard sauce, stuffing it into their mouth.

"Ugh!" Eevee said in frustration.

In a torment he ran out of the kitchen and headed towards the front door.

"I can't play Dominion without my mustard sauce!" He said, opening the door, gruffly running outside, and slamming it shut behind him.

Everyone still stared blankly at the front door.

"We should get back to the game," someone said.

They all agreed and headed back to the table.

"You coming redacted?" A rule breaker said to his partner.

"Yep," They said, licking their fingers as they headed back towards the group.

--

Eevee the Town-aligned player has been night killed. After a quick look at his cards they could see a Steward, Watchtower, and Scheme.
His cards will be moved to the Trash Pile at the start of the next day.

Dsell's Cutpurse was moved to the trash.

PPS's Scheme, Apprentice, Lookout, and Cartographer were all moved to the trash.

--

After a quick look at the discard pile, the following cards were found:

Total Cards: 8

x1 Bishop
x1 Lookout
x1 Market Square
x1 Native Village
x2 Rats
x2 Treasure Map

--

Additionally a note from Archetype was found hidden between two of the couch cousins. It read:

"Hello fellow game players! I hope you're having a great time! By the way, no matter what you may think, Morgrim7 is not a rule-breaker."


Turn 3 has started!

Not Voting (9) -- ashersky, Young Nick, Morgrim7, Captain_Frisk, Robz888, Galzria, jotheonah, cayvie, Qvist

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Day 3 lynch deadline is December 6th at 8:30 pm Forum Time

Thread Unlocked!

[Young Nick]

Yeah um this is all very confusing.

I will be V/LA until Monday probably. I have a final exam tomorrow and then I will be out of town until Sunday evening.

[Robz888]

Its not that confusing. Morgrim used/got used on some IC power.

[Robz888]

Anybody know anything?

[Galzria]

Me. I've got another confirmed townie investigation. Once again my card is not listed though.

[Young Nick]

Its not that confusing. Morgrim used/got used on some IC power.

We don't know that for sure. Mafia mail-carrier thingy is a possibility.

[Captain_Frisk]

So: 7 cards.  9 players, and presumably 1 card played by eevee.  Should we start claiming?

[ashersky]

Fairly certain I'm the other person that got Ratted.

[Captain_Frisk]

Fairly certain I'm the other person that got Ratted.

The other person?  I count 3 missing cards - and didn't we establish on day 1 that rat ate Galz's sage?

[ashersky]

Fairly certain I'm the other person that got Ratted.

The other person?  I count 3 missing cards - and didn't we establish on day 1 that rat ate Galz's sage?

Isn't the discard pile only for N2?  9 people, 7 cards, unless we're counting Eevee's card.  But still, 2 Rats, so either one person got Ratted and the other Rat was played, or two people were Ratted.

Galz claims to have been Ratted (or at least, his card is missing), my card is also not in the pile.

[Captain_Frisk]

Also, why was only one of DSell's cards moved to the trash?

[Captain_Frisk]

Fairly certain I'm the other person that got Ratted.

The other person?  I count 3 missing cards - and didn't we establish on day 1 that rat ate Galz's sage?

Isn't the discard pile only for N2?  9 people, 7 cards, unless we're counting Eevee's card.  But still, 2 Rats, so either one person got Ratted and the other Rat was played, or two people were Ratted.

Galz claims to have been Ratted (or at least, his card is missing), my card is also not in the pile.

But Cayvie claimed that Rats replaces the trashed card with a copy of rats... so Galz's sage was eaten by rats, and we see 2 rats in the discard pile - and yesterday everything added up (allegedly)

Today we're 3 cards short.

[Archetype]

Made a mistake in the cards played last night. Added in Market Square.

[jotheonah]

I can account for a missing card.

I opted not to play one, because none of my choices were good. They all required having a stronger scum read than I had, basically.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok, we're down to 1 missing card.

Anyone else want to explain in advance why their card isn't in there?

[Galzria]

Ok, we're down to 1 missing card.

Anyone else want to explain in advance why their card isn't in there?

There are 8 cards, 9 people, and Joth didn't play. We're square on count.

[Young Nick]

I didn't play a card either. Someone must have played two in that case.

[Young Nick]

Total Cards: 7

x1 Bishop
x1 Lookout
x1 Market Square
x1 Native Village
x2 Rats
x2 Treasure Map

--
[/b]
Turn 3 has started!


Thread Unlocked!

So the bigger, bolded part should say 8 cards in the discard instead of seven, right?

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok, we're down to 1 missing card.

Anyone else want to explain in advance why their card isn't in there?

There are 8 cards, 9 people, and Joth didn't play. We're square on count.

Dead person also played a card.

[Galzria]

Ok, we're down to 1 missing card.

Anyone else want to explain in advance why their card isn't in there?

There are 8 cards, 9 people, and Joth didn't play. We're square on count.

Dead person also played a card.

In that case YN and Joth are your missing cards. Joth is town.

[Captain_Frisk]

All right - lets start with Rats.  Who played a rats?

[cayvie]

sorry sorry sorry everyone

i have clarification from archetype

apparently my rats remains active the whole game; it masks my cards as well as galzria's.

i played possession, and it's hidden under some rats.

[Galzria]

So my cards will never appear as shutting other than Rats?

Fascinating.

I played Band of Misfits this time around, fwiw.

[Galzria]

Shutting = anything

[Qvist]

So this game continues too, oh man.
Can someone tell me why someone would opt to not play a card? This only helps us, right?
Scum on the other way has a reason to not play a card, especially after Dsell was framed this way.

[cayvie]

So this game continues too, oh man.
Can someone tell me why someone would opt to not play a card? This only helps us, right?
Scum on the other way has a reason to not play a card, especially after Dsell was framed this way.

well, if your remaining cards are all vig kills, i can see not wanting to use them if you don't have a strong read

[Qvist]

Yeah, but that's pretty unlikely, isn't it?

[cayvie]

Yeah, but that's pretty unlikely, isn't it?

sure, but it's also simplistic

i'm sure there are other cards you wouldn't want to use willy-nilly

maybe a roleblock, or a bus drive, or a redirect?

[cayvie]

i mean, yes, it's also possible he is trying to disguise the size of his hand against spies

but i don't think he'd admit it then

[ashersky]

i mean, yes, it's also possible he is trying to disguise the size of his hand against spies

but i don't think he'd admit it then

I truly don't think hand size is going to be an accurate way to define scum going forward.

[Captain_Frisk]

sorry sorry sorry everyone

i have clarification from archetype

apparently my rats remains active the whole game; it masks my cards as well as galzria's.

i played possession, and it's hidden under some rats.

Man that is scummy.  Even if you thought it was just a 1 day thing, why on earth would you play it day 1 vs. any of the other cards in your hand?

[cayvie]

sorry sorry sorry everyone

i have clarification from archetype

apparently my rats remains active the whole game; it masks my cards as well as galzria's.

i played possession, and it's hidden under some rats.

Man that is scummy.  Even if you thought it was just a 1 day thing, why on earth would you play it day 1 vs. any of the other cards in your hand?

none of my cards seemed better for n1 use

i suppose i could have not used a card, but that sounded boring.

[Qvist]

Its not that confusing. Morgrim used/got used on some IC power.

We don't know that for sure. Mafia mail-carrier thingy is a possibility.

What does this mean?

[Qvist]

sorry sorry sorry everyone

i have clarification from archetype

apparently my rats remains active the whole game; it masks my cards as well as galzria's.

i played possession, and it's hidden under some rats.

Man that is scummy.  Even if you thought it was just a 1 day thing, why on earth would you play it day 1 vs. any of the other cards in your hand?

Yeah, I agree here actually. Rats and Possession don't sound like cards town would play.
Maybe cayvie played Rats to hide the following cards that he plays.
But OTOH why should he admit that he played Possession.

[Qvist]

Yeah, but that's pretty unlikely, isn't it?

sure, but it's also simplistic

i'm sure there are other cards you wouldn't want to use willy-nilly

maybe a roleblock, or a bus drive, or a redirect?

Any other opinions here?

[Captain_Frisk]

sorry sorry sorry everyone

i have clarification from archetype

apparently my rats remains active the whole game; it masks my cards as well as galzria's.

i played possession, and it's hidden under some rats.

Man that is scummy.  Even if you thought it was just a 1 day thing, why on earth would you play it day 1 vs. any of the other cards in your hand?

none of my cards seemed better for n1 use

i suppose i could have not used a card, but that sounded boring.

So you willingly destroyed information?

Vote: Cayvie

[cayvie]

yeah

i chose "use a card" over "not use a card"

sorry

[Morgrim7]

hi all.

[ashersky]

vote: cayvie

Knowingly destroying info was def anti-town.

[jotheonah]

btws, I can confirm Rats does what cayvie says it does because I have a copy in my hand. And I also would not have thought it lasted all game.

[Captain_Frisk]

btws, I can confirm Rats does what cayvie says it does because I have a copy in my hand. And I also would not have thought it lasted all game.

Would you have played it?

[Captain_Frisk]

btws, I can confirm Rats does what cayvie says it does because I have a copy in my hand. And I also would not have thought it lasted all game.

Would you have played it?

Can you think of any plausible town reason to do so?

[ashersky]

btws, I can confirm Rats does what cayvie says it does because I have a copy in my hand. And I also would not have thought it lasted all game.

Would you have played it?

Clearly not, since he didn't.

[ashersky]

btws, I can confirm Rats does what cayvie says it does because I have a copy in my hand. And I also would not have thought it lasted all game.

Would you have played it?

Can you think of any plausible town reason to do so?

It hides what you did so you can lie about your cards.  Not town.

[jotheonah]

I couldn't see any reason to play it as town.

[Young Nick]

I couldn't see any reason to play it as town.

I mean, yeah, but it has a more neutral effect when she admits who she played it on and the person then tells us what card they played. She didn't know it would last all game. Also if anything it makes Galzria more scummy because he is free to lie about which card he played.

I don't think it's enough to warrant a vote on her.

[ashersky]

If Rats is the least scummy of Cayvie's cards...well, that looks bad.

[Young Nick]

If Rats is the least scummy of Cayvie's cards...well, that looks bad.

Is that a scumtell, though? It's hard to determine what a card's function is with only knowledge of its name. I mean, I took cards that I thought seemd fun, interesting, or powerful. Whether they turned out that way is another story. I feel like I could have ended up with mostly useless cards or cards that would all put me in a bad light. It's hard to punish someone based on how they drafted, in my opinion.

tl;dr scum-hunt based on in-game actions, not drafting.

[ashersky]

If Rats is the least scummy of Cayvie's cards...well, that looks bad.

Is that a scumtell, though? It's hard to determine what a card's function is with only knowledge of its name. I mean, I took cards that I thought seemd fun, interesting, or powerful. Whether they turned out that way is another story. I feel like I could have ended up with mostly useless cards or cards that would all put me in a bad light. It's hard to punish someone based on how they drafted, in my opinion.

tl;dr scum-hunt based on in-game actions, not drafting.

No, you are right, cards drawn is no tell.  But playing anti-town cards after you draw town as your alignment makes no sense, which is where I think Frisk and I are going with this argument.

[jotheonah]

Vote: cayvie. Sometimes obvious scum is obvious.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 3.1:

cayvie (3) -- Captain_Frisk, ashersky, jotheonah {L-2}

Not Voting (6) -- Morgrim7, Young Nick, Qvist, Robz888, Galzira, cayvie

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Day 3 Lynch Deadline is December 6th at 8:30 PM.

[jotheonah]

Here's a (much-needed) topic for discussion: Eevee. He got backed into claiming TR, lamented his likely night kill and begged for protection. He died.

1) are there no doctor cards at all?
2) are the only Dr. Powers JK powers and no one wanted to screw up the TR resolve?
3) what DID Eevee TR anyway?
4) why did scum target a person who seemed like the obvcjoice for protection? Did they use up their strongman kill?

[Galzria]

Another question:

Should I create another IC?

I've got another Town-Aligned result from last night. Obviously my results can't be 100% trusted by town until I die, but that can't be helped.

The problem of course if I don't announce, is that if I'm killed, I take the free IC to my grave. However, announcing paints a target on that players head. Thoughts?

[ashersky]

Another question:

Should I create another IC?

I've got another Town-Aligned result from last night. Obviously my results can't be 100% trusted by town until I die, but that can't be helped.

The problem of course if I don't announce, is that if I'm killed, I take the free IC to my grave. However, announcing paints a target on that players head. Thoughts?

Generally speaking, ICs are good for town.  If you see a need for that, I'd go ahead and confirm.

If we're about to lynch that IC, definitely say something.

[Robz888]

Another question:

Should I create another IC?

I've got another Town-Aligned result from last night. Obviously my results can't be 100% trusted by town until I die, but that can't be helped.

The problem of course if I don't announce, is that if I'm killed, I take the free IC to my grave. However, announcing paints a target on that players head. Thoughts?

I request that you tell us, Galzria.

[Young Nick]

If Rats is the least scummy of Cayvie's cards...well, that looks bad.

Is that a scumtell, though? It's hard to determine what a card's function is with only knowledge of its name. I mean, I took cards that I thought seemd fun, interesting, or powerful. Whether they turned out that way is another story. I feel like I could have ended up with mostly useless cards or cards that would all put me in a bad light. It's hard to punish someone based on how they drafted, in my opinion.

tl;dr scum-hunt based on in-game actions, not drafting.

No, you are right, cards drawn is no tell.  But playing anti-town cards after you draw town as your alignment makes no sense, which is where I think Frisk and I are going with this argument.

I see what you are saying, but what I'm saying is that it seemed like a relatively innocent card at the time. It seems that cayvie thought it would destroy information for one night. She played it and fessed up. Then we let Galzria (it was him, right?) tell us what he had played.

If I were her, I would think that it was basically a card that would have little to no effect on the game, so why not just play it for fun. It doesn't seem like an action that by itself is worthy of a vote, but that's just my opinion.

Another question:

Should I create another IC?

I've got another Town-Aligned result from last night. Obviously my results can't be 100% trusted by town until I die, but that can't be helped.

The problem of course if I don't announce, is that if I'm killed, I take the free IC to my grave. However, announcing paints a target on that players head. Thoughts?

I'd say the IC is good for town, and thus you should reveal.

[Galzria]

Actually the ordering was:

I claimed to have played Sage N1, but that it wasn't in the discard.

Cayvie then came forward saying she could explain that via her playing Rats.

Today, I claimed to have played Band Of Misfits N2, but that once more it wasn't in the trash.

Cayvie then claimed to have gotten clarification on how Rats works, and that my cards are stuck as reporting as Rats for the rest of the game.

[Qvist]

So: 7 cards.  9 players, and presumably 1 card played by eevee.  Should we start claiming?

This idea was abandoned. I think we should claim, because I have something to say which I found confusing.

[Galzria]

As to my second investigation target (N1 was Joth, who's town), I peeked at Robz888 last night, out of curiosity if he would be trying a "D1 lynch your partner" play on Dsell (the lynch didn't happen until D2, but Robz was pushing what felt like a really weak/bad case D1).

Robz is also town.

Of course in both the case of Robz and Joth, they aren't 100% IC's to me, because there's the chance my targets were bussed/switched - however I find that very unlikely. I didn't breadcrumb that I had two Investigative cards in my hand D1, so I could've effectively played anything that night. Scum would've had to guess not only that I was playing that card type, but also which of their members I would be investigating (in order to switch themselves with a townie). It just doesn't seem to be all that likely.

N2 they might have guessed that I would follow up with another investigative role, but again, in order to bus my target effectively they would've needed to guess which of their members I would target - and given Robz push for a Dsell lynch, if he was indeed scum he would likely be the "hidden" one - ie. The one they were least worried about being investigated.

So both nights I find it rather unlikely that my results were compromised. Not impossible of course, but unlikely.

[Robz888]

And I was going to recommend lynching you after you came out with the second IC, so that we knew we could trust you!

[Galzria]

And I was going to recommend lynching you after you came out with the second IC, so that we knew we could trust you!

Thought has already crossed my mind, however I was hoping others would be able to independently verify my alignment so that it wouldn't come to that.

[cayvie]

*shrug*

not really sure what arguments i can make

i just didn't think that much about my night actions

[Captain_Frisk]

Wow - this game is moving slow relative to others.  Cayvie - is that your best defense?

[cayvie]

Wow - this game is moving slow relative to others.  Cayvie - is that your best defense?

it's the honest one

[Robz888]

Guys, I do think we should raise the proposition of killing Galzria.

I don't need confirmation that his investigation of me is correct--and frankly, neither should the rest of you--but it would also confirm Joth--who, again, is in all likelihood town, but whatever. The thing most of all is, it worries me. It worries me that Galz is using an extreme form of buddying here. Also, does it seem unrealistic that he has this power to exonerate people night after night?

This game is looking pretty tough for scum to win, and really tough if Galz is town and can do what he claimed. I don't know if perhaps this is Galz's strategy, to make himself look town-ish by correctly identifying other town members and claiming its an investigation. It's an interesting strategy, and one I could see him trying.

Thoughts?

[Galzria]

I agree that my death is imminent, however I think we should leave it to scum to do, and if they don't NK me, then we should lynch me tomorrow.

Why? Because I've got another straight alignment investigation in my hand. If scum wishes to prevent me from using it, they can kill me tonight, thus verifying my claims and giving you two IC's.

If they do not kill me tonight, they risk a positive investigation on one of their own, or yet another cleared townie, as I agree I should then be tomorrows lynch.

The order of my drafting:

Hand 1: Take Scrying Pool
Hand 2: Take Band of Misfits
Hand 3: Take Sage
Hand 4: Take Cartographer
Hand 5: Receive Sage

---

I was intentionally trying to build a hand of investigative tools.

Scrying Pool: Target 1 Player. You'll be told the power of the card that they choose to play.

-- I choose this over Cutpurse/Smugglers/Scout/Market Square. It was a toss-up with Scout, but Scout is terrible, and I recalled CF as Scrying Pool in M-IX? and BMMM.


Band of Misfits: Pick a Card from your hand costing $4 or less. This card mimics that card in every way.

-- I choose this over Torturer/Bishop/Masquerade. Masq and Bishop are some of my favorite cards, but I saw the DA card and thought "Oooh, shiny". Really, I didn't find great choices from this set, so picked something that I thought would be a complete surprise.


Sage: Target a player and learn their alignment.

-- I choose this over Embargo/Contaband. Seriously, there was no question on this one for me. Neither of those other options sounded even remotely useful to me, and like I said, I was trying to pick up information cards.


Cartographer: Target a player. You'll learn who they target that night.

-- I choose this over Spy. This was another toss-up, but I'm not a huge Spy fan, and at this point I felt that Sage/SP were likely to be straight investigations so I wanted something a little different.

My final card was Sage.

I played Sage on Joth N1.

I played BoM, copying my second Sage's powers on Robz N2.

I still have Sage/Scrying Pool/Cartographer.

[Robz888]

.... Okay then.

We definitely lynch Galzria tomorrow if he's still around. Don't forget about this, people! In the meantime,

Vote: Cayvie

[ashersky]

What about the whole who did what last night thing?  And the what should we do tonight thing?

[ashersky]

.... Okay then.

We definitely lynch Galzria tomorrow if he's still around. Don't forget about this, people! In the meantime,

Vote: Cayvie

Should we not make sure he's around?

[Robz888]

Well yeah don't hammer Cayvie yet please.

[cayvie]

Well yeah don't hammer Cayvie yet please.

well if you say so

vote: cayvie

[Galzria]

Well yeah don't hammer Cayvie yet please.

well if you say so

vote: cayvie

 

[Robz888]

Well yeah don't hammer Cayvie yet please.

well if you say so

vote: cayvie

 

That's the exact face I made IRL.

[Archetype]

Thread Locked!

[Archetype]

Phone posting now, so no flavor, but cayvie was a Mafia-aligned player. Her leftover cards were Menagerie and Navigator.

48 hours for all night actions to be sent in.

Night 3 start!

[Archetype]

Everyone returned from break and took their respective spots at the table.

Galzria sat confidently at one end of the table, sipping coffee out of a mug he gripped in his hand.

Suddenly, seemingly out of no where, a card flew across the table, striking Galzria's mug, causing it to spill all over his shirt.

"Aah!" He screamed, "It burns!"

He quickly burst up from the table and ran to the bathroom.

"Ow, ow, ow, ow" He screamed as he ran down the hall, wrenched open the bathroom door, and stepped inside.

In the blink of an eye, the door to the bathroom was shut, and locked from the outside. A mysterious figure slid the key out of the lock and slipped it into their pocket.

Sometimes working solo is the best way to get the job done...

--


Galzria, the Town-aligned player has been night killed. Through the coffee stains, you could see his cards were Cartographer, Sage, and Scrying Pool. His cards will be moved to the Trash Pile at the beginning of the next day.

Eevee's Steward, Watchtower, and Scheme were all moved to the trash.
cayvie's Menagerie and Navigator were both moved to the trash.

--

After a quick look at the discard, the following cards were found:

Total cards: 4

x1 Bishop
x1 Forge
x1 Torturer
x1 Masquerade

--

Turn 3 has started!

Not Voting: (7) -- ashersky, Young Nick, Morgrim7, Captain_Frisk, Robz888, jotheonah, Qvist

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Day 4 Lynch Deadline is December 13th at 5:30 PM Forum Time.

Thread Unlocked!

[Robz888]

Did no one protect Galz? Great.

Well, only 1 scum left right? This can't be too hard. Gotta see who didn't vote for Dsell/Cayvie maybe.

[ashersky]

So that was strongarm.  I protected him.

[Robz888]

So that was strongarm.  I protected him.

Oh okay, cool. You played the Bishop?

[ashersky]

So that was strongarm.  I protected him.

Oh okay, cool. You played the Bishop?

Yes.  Protect your target from all NKs.

[Robz888]

So that was strongarm.  I protected him.

Oh okay, cool. You played the Bishop?

Yes.  Protect your target from all NKs.

I'm aware. I played it on Joth two nights ago. Time for everyone other than me and Joth (we are confirmed townies) to confirm what they played.

[ashersky]

So that was strongarm.  I protected him.

Oh okay, cool. You played the Bishop?

Yes.  Protect your target from all NKs.

I'm aware. I played it on Joth two nights ago. Time for everyone other than me and Joth (we are confirmed townies) to confirm what they played.

Well, that should confirm me as town for you.  I'm interested to hear what others played as well.

[Qvist]

Great, we hit scum again. I have still this question open:

So: 7 cards.  9 players, and presumably 1 card played by eevee.  Should we start claiming?

This idea was abandoned. I think we should claim, because I have something to say which I found confusing.

And only 3 cards in the discard?? My card does not show up for example.

[Robz888]

So that was strongarm.  I protected him.

Oh okay, cool. You played the Bishop?

Yes.  Protect your target from all NKs.

I'm aware. I played it on Joth two nights ago. Time for everyone other than me and Joth (we are confirmed townies) to confirm what they played.

Well, that should confirm me as town for you.  I'm interested to hear what others played as well.

I think it pretty much does, yeah.

[Archetype]

I made a mistake (sorry, first time modding)

Masquerade was played in the night.

[jotheonah]

Actually, I protected Galz.

So that's interesting.

[Robz888]

Actually, I protected Galz.

So that's interesting.

With Bishop?

[jotheonah]

Oh, I feel foolish now. I assumed the strongman had been used last night, so I played Torturer on Galz. It's a JK - protects him from nightkills but also roleblocks him. I figured it was worth it to have a no-kill night.

[ashersky]

Still need to hear who played Masq and Forge.

[Young Nick]

Hi all. I have finals until next Friday. Life is crazy for me. I will be on from time to time. Just a heads up.

[ashersky]

Hi all. I have finals until next Friday. Life is crazy for me. I will be on from time to time. Just a heads up.

You could have mentioned the card you played and on who, though.

[Robz888]

Hi all. I have finals until next Friday. Life is crazy for me. I will be on from time to time. Just a heads up.

Tell us what card you played, please!

[Young Nick]

I played Tactician. I need to think on results before I say anything about it.

[ashersky]

I played Tactician. I need to think on results before I say anything about it.

Would you tell us what it does without sharing results?

[Young Nick]

I will, but I'd rather wait a bit. I don't want to give away anything. It's for a reason.

[Qvist]

Noone seems to be interested in what I have to say. 

But I think I should say it anyway. Yesterday I played 2 Treasure Maps. This should confirm me as Innocent Child. But instead of that Morgrim7 was named as IC. I don't know why.
Obviously Mafia did something here, but I don't know if scum Morgrim redirected this to himself or if scum did redirect to Morgrim.

So after Outpost+Navigator and 2 Treasure Maps I only had one card left, like I have planned this. It's Masquerade. It let me exchange a card from my hand with someone else's card. But I have no card, so I basically can steal a card. I chose Morgrim. He has Smugglers, Market Square and Steward and a fourth card, an attack, that I stole. But I think Morgrim is innocent because he has still 4 cards in hand right? So I know have to find out whom I should target this night.

[jotheonah]

Why did you not mention this yesterday?

[Qvist]

I asked if I should. Noone cared. And then I wasn't online before the hammer came.

[ashersky]

So here's what I see:

ashersky (town)
Young Nick
Morgrim7 (IC)
CF
Robz888 (town)
jotheonah (town -- can someone remind me why?)
Qvist

POE, our scum has to be one of YN, CF, and Qvist, right?  Qvist says Morg somehow stole his IC, but still thinks he's town.

So if everyone is telling the truth, YN or CF.  CF is VLA, so I'd like to at least hear what YN is thinking, what his card did, etc.

[Young Nick]

It doesn't seem like everyone can be telling the truth, at least between Morgrim and Qvist. I am not saying one of them has to be scum, but we definitely can't let them both be viewed as IC's.

So Galzria cleared two people, right? joth and Robz, if I remember correctly.

I assume ashersky cited himself as town because he is town in his own eyes. Objectively, though, we have possible scum as

asher
Young Nick
Captain Frisk
Qvist/Morgrim

So far there hasn't been that much actual scum-hunting, I'd like to see more of that. We knew Dsell to be Mafia because of his hand-size. We did a bit of hunting to find cayvie, but I still think we got lucky. The case on her still doesn't seem that strong to me, but I'll certainly take a scum-lynch, whether there was good reason for it or not.

In general, I think we need to be a bit more active and reveal what cards we have played. I know I am a huge hypocrite in that sense, but I would like others to reveal their night actions before mine, and it is for good reason.

[ashersky]

It doesn't seem like everyone can be telling the truth, at least between Morgrim and Qvist. I am not saying one of them has to be scum, but we definitely can't let them both be viewed as IC's.

So Galzria cleared two people, right? joth and Robz, if I remember correctly.

I assume ashersky cited himself as town because he is town in his own eyes. Objectively, though, we have possible scum as

asher
Young Nick
Captain Frisk
Qvist/Morgrim

So far there hasn't been that much actual scum-hunting, I'd like to see more of that. We knew Dsell to be Mafia because of his hand-size. We did a bit of hunting to find cayvie, but I still think we got lucky. The case on her still doesn't seem that strong to me, but I'll certainly take a scum-lynch, whether there was good reason for it or not.

In general, I think we need to be a bit more active and reveal what cards we have played. I know I am a huge hypocrite in that sense, but I would like others to reveal their night actions before mine, and it is for good reason.

Well, you've got mine.  I'm town because I know I'm town, but also confirmed town through my action last night and my knowledge of my card.

I think one of Q/Morgrim is probably lying, and that's where we need to be looking.  I'm interested in what you have to say, too.

[Morgrim7]

Im IC?

[ashersky]

Im IC?

According to D3 starting flavor, yes.

[Morgrim7]

Im IC?

According to D3 starting flavor, yes.

i honestly didnt know that

[ashersky]

Im IC?

According to D3 starting flavor, yes.

i honestly didnt know that

Is it true?

[Young Nick]

Ashersky, just because you claimed to have played a card does not make you confirmed town to anyone. It sounds like pro-town behavior, but you could be lying about who you targeted with it to get town-credit. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I am innately suspicious of you, I am just saying we shouldn't consider you along with joth and robz quite yet.

[jotheonah]

So here's what I see:

ashersky (town)
Young Nick
Morgrim7 (IC)
CF
Robz888 (town)
jotheonah (town -- can someone remind me why?)
Qvist

POE, our scum has to be one of YN, CF, and Qvist, right?  Qvist says Morg somehow stole his IC, but still thinks he's town.

So if everyone is telling the truth, YN or CF.  CF is VLA, so I'd like to at least hear what YN is thinking, what his card did, etc.

CF is town. I investigated him with my N1 spy.

[jotheonah]

Ashersky, why didn't you doctor Eevee night 2? He just about begged for protection.

[Robz888]

So here's what I see:

ashersky (town)
Young Nick
Morgrim7 (IC)
CF
Robz888 (town)
jotheonah (town -- can someone remind me why?)
Qvist

POE, our scum has to be one of YN, CF, and Qvist, right?  Qvist says Morg somehow stole his IC, but still thinks he's town.

So if everyone is telling the truth, YN or CF.  CF is VLA, so I'd like to at least hear what YN is thinking, what his card did, etc.

CF is town. I investigated him with my N1 spy.

Oh, that's good to know about Frisk.

If I had to take a guess at this point, final scum would be ashersky, who tried to appear town by Doctoring (despite actually strongman killing) Galzria.

[jotheonah]

That makes a lot of sense to me. But the Bishop card - either he played it or someone else did.

[jotheonah]

Unless someone counterclaims playing Bishop, we have to believe ashersky.

[Robz888]

That makes a lot of sense to me. But the Bishop card - either he played it or someone else did.

Right. I think ashersky played Bishop, and also did the strongman kill. He can't do both?

[Robz888]

From the first post: "The 1-shot kill modifier will replace one of the cards in a Mafia-aligned players hand. They can still play a card in addition to using their kill modifier."

[ashersky]

That makes a lot of sense to me. But the Bishop card - either he played it or someone else did.

Right. I think ashersky played Bishop, and also did the strongman kill. He can't do both?

You really think that?  If YN would talk, I can confirm if he's telling the truth.  I actually already think he's town and am ready to vote Qvist, but just want to wait.

[jotheonah]

I stand corrected.

Well that would be kind of brilliant, to strongman and doctor the same target on the same night.

But why not? You're a scum who accidentally drafted a doctor kill, and you have no partners left to use it on. Why not use it to try to clear yourself?

Do we know scum has to be YN, ash, or Qvist at this point?

[jotheonah]

YN, I would like to know who is to your right currently. I will explain why after you tell me (or the person to YN's right comes out).

[Robz888]

I stand corrected.

Well that would be kind of brilliant, to strongman and doctor the same target on the same night.

But why not? You're a scum who accidentally drafted a doctor kill, and you have no partners left to use it on. Why not use it to try to clear yourself?

Do we know scum has to be YN, ash, or Qvist at this point?

Yes, unless something fairly bastardly is going on.

Right, I do think ashersky would do that. He knows he's pretty screwed (the remaining scum is like dead in the water no matter what) and has to try something bold.

[Young Nick]

This point about ashersky strong-arming is a good one, but it also is unnecessary. If ashersky wants to kill Galzria, he can just play Bishop, name anybody else and send in the NK without wasting his strong-arm special ability. If this is the case, we have to be careful because he could still have his special ability, and it could be strong-arm or something else.

Joth, I believe you should already know who is to my right.

Also, considering this is a RM type game, I think we should still keep the possibility open that weird things are happening and results are being mixed up. Whether there is a bus-driver/redirector or anything like that, results can be altered. See Qvist/Morgrim.

Also, joth, what do you want me to talk about? My Tactician findings? Has everyone else already claimed for last night, because I would not like to disclose my results until that happens.

[Robz888]

This point about ashersky strong-arming is a good one, but it also is unnecessary. If ashersky wants to kill Galzria, he can just play Bishop, name anybody else and send in the NK without wasting his strong-arm special ability. If this is the case, we have to be careful because he could still have his special ability, and it could be strong-arm or something else.

Joth, I believe you should already know who is to my right.

Also, considering this is a RM type game, I think we should still keep the possibility open that weird things are happening and results are being mixed up. Whether there is a bus-driver/redirector or anything like that, results can be altered. See Qvist/Morgrim.

Also, joth, what do you want me to talk about? My Tactician findings? Has everyone else already claimed for last night, because I would not like to disclose my results until that happens.

The thing is, ashersky would do that to create some cover for himself. He needs to do something like that, or else we're going to POE him probably anyway.

[jotheonah]

No, I know Galz was strongarmed because I protected him, too.

And ... My mistake, I need to know who's on the other side of you.

I think it's up to you whether to share your other information.

[ashersky]

I didn't kill anyone because I am not mafia.  I do like the compliment that I would come up with that plan, though.

[jotheonah]

You know, YN can't lie about table positions anyway, the other person would contradict him.

So here's where I'm at: I have a vig kill in my hand.

It seems like, if we have a group of 3 where one is scum for sure, we can lynch one today and I can vig in the night with 50/50 accuracy.

The problem is, my vig kill is Contraband and the person to my left can tell me one person I can't kill. And that person is Young Nick.

If the person to Young Nick's left is Frisk or Robz, we should lynch him today so that a confTown has veto power over my shot, and I can freely shoot ash or Qvist. If it's either ash or Qvist, then I might not be able to helpful, unless I use the kill semi-investigatively, but I'm not sure if that's wise.

Thoughts?

[Robz888]

I have Dsell on the left and ashersky on the right.


I have no idea how to figure this out.

[Robz888]

I agree with your plan though. Arguably I think we lynch YN, then, and you shoot ashersky. If ashersky dies and flips town, lynch Qvist. If ashersky doesn't die, lynch ashersky. If the game still isn't over... we have enough people left to lynch qvist the next day right?

[jotheonah]

No, it works like the card I think. Before I shoot, the person tells me who I can't shoot.

[ashersky]

I have Robz left, Morgrim right.

I also have Moat in hand, which does what you would expect.

[Robz888]

I have Robz left, Morgrim right.

I also have Moat in hand, which does what you would expect.

Could you be explicit? So he can't Vig you, is what you are saying.

[Archetype]

That makes a lot of sense to me. But the Bishop card - either he played it or someone else did.

Right. I think ashersky played Bishop, and also did the strongman kill. He can't do both?

Scum may both kill and play a card each night, the may use a kill modification too.

Not saying if ashersky is scum or not.

[Young Nick]

@Qvist: Did your Treasure Map require you to play two of them?

[ashersky]

I have Robz left, Morgrim right.

I also have Moat in hand, which does what you would expect.

Could you be explicit? So he can't Vig you, is what you are saying.

Full protection at night.  I am assuming it is full proof, because scum used the strong arm kill last night.

[ashersky]

I have Robz left, Morgrim right.

I also have Moat in hand, which does what you would expect.

Could you be explicit? So he can't Vig you, is what you are saying.

Full protection at night.  I am assuming it is full proof, because scum used the strong arm kill last night.

I would note, I have investigative cards left, so I would rather do that.

Also, Morgrim, what did you play?

[ashersky]

Ashersky, why didn't you doctor Eevee night 2? He just about begged for protection.

Why didn't you?  I honestly didn't see it.

[Qvist]

@Qvist: Did your Treasure Map require you to play two of them?

Exactly. I think I could play only one, but then it would have no effect, just IRL.

[Qvist]

Ok, I didn't do a fulll reread, but I have a question because the Role Madness confuses me:
If Morgrim indeed has 4 cards in hand, does it really mean he is townie?

Young Nick is the player to my right, joth. But I'm not sure if I understood your plan.
So if Young Nick is scum he will clearly choose himself right?
And if ashersky isn't lying, you will shoot me what's bad for us because I'm town.
If Young Nick isn't scum he will clearly choose someone obvtown, but then you're still in the same dilemma unless Young Nick does something WIFOM, then you should probably shoot him anyway. And if we know ashersky is lying, then you should shoot him anyway.

I will do some research now and try figuring out what cards Young Nick has still in his hand as he is my right player.

[Qvist]

Ok, wasn't so hard in the end. If Young Nick wasn't lying in the set claim, he has Cutpurse and Forge in his hand and an Intrigue card that he had from the start.
Young Nick, what was the result of your Wishing Well, you didn't tell about that yet? And what was the result of your Tactician? You didn't tell about that either. And why didn't you play a card in turn 2?

[ashersky]

Ok, I didn't do a fulll reread, but I have a question because the Role Madness confuses me:
If Morgrim indeed has 4 cards in hand, does it really mean he is townie?

Young Nick is the player to my right, joth. But I'm not sure if I understood your plan.
So if Young Nick is scum he will clearly choose himself right?
And if ashersky isn't lying, you will shoot me what's bad for us because I'm town.
If Young Nick isn't scum he will clearly choose someone obvtown, but then you're still in the same dilemma unless Young Nick does something WIFOM, then you should probably shoot him anyway. And if we know ashersky is lying, then you should shoot him anyway.

I will do some research now and try figuring out what cards Young Nick has still in his hand as he is my right player.

I think the fact that the mod said Morgrim is town makes him town, redirects and whatnot notwithstanding.

Here's what I think.  One of you and Young Nick is scum.  I know that YN came off pretty scummy D1, but I can confirm he didn't lie on D2 about his card.  I am waiting to hear what he has to say about last night to see what else we can confirm about him.  As for you, I've got nothing.

[jotheonah]

Yeah, I think with Qvist to YN's right there's no way my vig can help the town. Dammit.

[jotheonah]

I mean, I could use it to shoot ashersky or Qvist if we DON'T lynch Young Nick. Assuming YN doesn't veto one of them. But if we're sure there's exactly one scum left than there's no reason for him to.

But if he IS scum, that just hands the mafia an extra kill.

ALTHOUGH, we can still just lynch him the next day, right?

If we're sure the scum is one of those 3, we can't lose.

[Robz888]

I mean, I could use it to shoot ashersky or Qvist if we DON'T lynch Young Nick. Assuming YN doesn't veto one of them. But if we're sure there's exactly one scum left than there's no reason for him to.

But if he IS scum, that just hands the mafia an extra kill.

ALTHOUGH, we can still just lynch him the next day, right?

If we're sure the scum is one of those 3, we can't lose.

I think we ARE sure the scum are one of those three, so as long as you do use your Vig kill on one of them, we can't lose. This means we should lynch ashersky, shoot Qvist, and lynch Young Nick tomorrow, right? That's the best way to do it. Because ashersky can't be Vigged at all, and Qvist can't be Vigged if Young Nick is already dead because he would veto himself.

[Young Nick]

Why is Qvist not upset about his IC not working on him and working on Morgrim instead?

This gives me much pause. There is some form of redirection going on.


I used Wishing Well to inquire about Militia. I know Robz has this card.

Tactician lets me see how many cards each player has in hand. The results of this are somewhat confusing and I am still trying to flesh out their importance before revealing anything. It does not appear that the final scum can be caught in the same way that Dsell was by merely having too few cards in hand.

[Robz888]

It doesn't really matter, but I don't know why you would tell the scum what one of my Cards are.

[Robz888]

Hey ashersky, how many Cards do you have left?

[Robz888]

Nevermind, it doesn't matter.

[jotheonah]

I guess that it's important I be explicit about Frisk. I don't straight up know his alignment. I know he had four cards in hand night 2, while Dsell had 3, which implies town.

[Robz888]

I guess that it's important I be explicit about Frisk. I don't straight up know his alignment. I know he had four cards in hand night 2, while Dsell had 3, which implies town.

Oh. Well, I have a different reason to think he's town, maybe? I guess I might as well say: He used a card on me that invites me to a private QT with him. It's the Native Village Mat. It's just us, and you know, he's been mostly gone. That was two nights ago he did that.

[jotheonah]

Robz, your 829 makes a lot of sense.

Vote: ashersky

Shouldn't have said anything about that Moat, buddy.

[Robz888]

Vote: Ashersky

[Qvist]

Robz, your 829 makes a lot of sense.

Vote: ashersky

Shouldn't have said anything about that Moat, buddy.

I agree. Vote: ashersky

[Qvist]

Why is Qvist not upset about his IC not working on him and working on Morgrim instead?

I'm more confused than upset. In the end it doesn't really matter. I said basically everything what my town buddies need to know. And if scum kills me tonight, it's basically like I'm IC.

[ashersky]

You all really are terrible at reading me.  Do you not see how pro-town it was to tell you about the moat?  If I was scum, I don't say anything.

I can confirm YN's description of Tac; I have one.  I am down to three cards after being attacked last night, presumably by Robz militia.  I was forced to discard one card.  I used Market Square on N2 to grab two of Dsell's cards; that's why they weren't in the discard.

[ashersky]

Robz, did you attack me?  Someone did, and you've admitted to having the militia.

[ashersky]

I can offer an alternative strategy to killing me, btw.  Lynch Qvist, roleblock YN.  Lynch YN tomorrow.

[jotheonah]

I don't think RBing YN would stop him from making a decision in response to my powers.

[Robz888]

Robz, did you attack me?  Someone did, and you've admitted to having the militia.

I did NOT use my Militia.

[ashersky]

I don't think RBing YN would stop him from making a decision in response to my powers.

I meant so he can't NK and we have no deaths at night.

[jotheonah]

Unvote

Why is Robz cleared again?

[ashersky]

Unvote

Why is Robz cleared again?

Galz said he Sage'd him.

[ashersky]

Robz, did you attack me?  Someone did, and you've admitted to having the militia.

I did NOT use my Militia.

Well, I was attacked by someone, and discarded a card.

[ashersky]

Robz, did you attack me?  Someone did, and you've admitted to having the militia.

I did NOT use my Militia.

Well, I was attacked by someone, and discarded a card.

Could match joth's Torturer, or Q's Masq...

[Robz888]

Unvote

Why is Robz cleared again?

By the same thing that cleared you: Galz (confirmed town) Sage'd us.

[jotheonah]

Yeah ok. vote: ashersky

[ashersky]

Are you all really that convinced?  Can I get a committment to a public apology for so horribly misreading me, and my super-pro-town admissions, this game?  Remember, by lynching me, you are losing 3 town PRs: one investigation, one roleblocker, and one self bulletproof.

Clearly the one scum is on my wagon.  Remember that.  Most likely, it's probably one of the "cleared" townies.  If this lynch happens, my best guess is Robz.

The better option is to lynch Qvist or YN, roleblocker the other to ensure no NKs, then lynch the other the next day.  If the kill still goes through, I will gladly be tomorrow's lynch, then the rest of town can lynch Robz or Joth.

[ashersky]

Unvote

Why is Robz cleared again?

By the same thing that cleared you: Galz (confirmed town) Sage'd us.

Also, I answered this first, and yet you go with Robz?  Why sheep him so hard?

[Robz888]

Are you all really that convinced?  Can I get a committment to a public apology for so horribly misreading me, and my super-pro-town admissions, this game?  Remember, by lynching me, you are losing 3 town PRs: one investigation, one roleblocker, and one self bulletproof.

Clearly the one scum is on my wagon.  Remember that.  Most likely, it's probably one of the "cleared" townies.  If this lynch happens, my best guess is Robz.

The better option is to lynch Qvist or YN, roleblocker the other to ensure no NKs, then lynch the other the next day.  If the kill still goes through, I will gladly be tomorrow's lynch, then the rest of town can lynch Robz or Joth.

Ashersky, it's not that I think you're scum, it's that either you, Qvist, or YN are scum, and we can afford to kill all three of you if we do it in this order.

If someone messed something up in the translation, then humbug. I don't know who could have been wrong, other than maybe Joth about Frisk. But as I said, he recruited me to a private qt. He seemed engaged in a pro-town way, until his VLA departure.

I do think you are probably town, ashersky. But it has to go in this order. It's for the good of the team, man.

[ashersky]

Are you all really that convinced?  Can I get a committment to a public apology for so horribly misreading me, and my super-pro-town admissions, this game?  Remember, by lynching me, you are losing 3 town PRs: one investigation, one roleblocker, and one self bulletproof.

Clearly the one scum is on my wagon.  Remember that.  Most likely, it's probably one of the "cleared" townies.  If this lynch happens, my best guess is Robz.

The better option is to lynch Qvist or YN, roleblocker the other to ensure no NKs, then lynch the other the next day.  If the kill still goes through, I will gladly be tomorrow's lynch, then the rest of town can lynch Robz or Joth.

Ashersky, it's not that I think you're scum, it's that either you, Qvist, or YN are scum, and we can afford to kill all three of you if we do it in this order.

If someone messed something up in the translation, then humbug. I don't know who could have been wrong, other than maybe Joth about Frisk. But as I said, he recruited me to a private qt. He seemed engaged in a pro-town way, until his VLA departure.

I do think you are probably town, ashersky. But it has to go in this order. It's for the good of the team, man.

I mean, I can get that reasoning.  It's just, well, seems there's a way more pro-town use of my remaining powers than just, you know, killing them off.

[jotheonah]

I also have a roleblock.

Does a non-ash person have an investigation power left?

[Young Nick]

Wait, so C_F is not confirmed as town? Robz only thinks that this is the case?

Or did someone Sage him?

Also, I can't stress this enough: It should be Qvist/Morgrim. Why do people keep letting this slide? This matters. There was a clear redirect going on or Qvist is blatantly lying. The lying doesn't make sense: No one CC'ed playing the TM's, so he certainly did. TM's also don't make sense to IC someone else. Did Morgrim steal them? Maybe? Did scum redirect to town-Morgrim in hoping that Qvist would contest stronger? Possible, but that's a lot of WIFOM.

It is just scary to see both Morgrim and C_F as confirmed town when they are not in my book.

There is some sort of redirect in this game, or so it seems. Remember this when assuming certain people are confirmed town. Sage could easily have been redirected, too, now that I think about it. I just don't know who/what to believe at this point. It certainly isn't as simple as we are making it out to be.

[Robz888]

But Young Nick, the redirect doesn't mean the outcome was wrong. Somehow Qvist ICing himself got redirected, so instead Morgrim got ICed. It doesn't say anything about them, scum could have just redirected them. We do know Morg is IC though.

[ashersky]

But Young Nick, the redirect doesn't mean the outcome was wrong. Somehow Qvist ICing himself got redirected, so instead Morgrim got ICed. It doesn't say anything about them, scum could have just redirected them. We do know Morg is IC though.

Unless the power was to be announced as IC, even if you aren't.  Then it is good for scum, like investigation immunity.

[jotheonah]

Fake ICs are way Bastard though. I just can't imagine that happening in a nonBastard game.

[Captain_Frisk]

Not caught up at all, but glad to see that cayvie was scum.  Will read from last post and respond one post at a time.  This may result in me commenting on things everyone already knows

[Captain_Frisk]

Great, we hit scum again. I have still this question open:

So: 7 cards.  9 players, and presumably 1 card played by eevee.  Should we start claiming?

This idea was abandoned. I think we should claim, because I have something to say which I found confusing.

And only 3 cards in the discard?? My card does not show up for example.

I didn't play a card on account from being vla.  I was hit by a discard attack though, and the mod auto discarded the card that I would have discarded.

[Captain_Frisk]

So here's what I see:

ashersky (town)
Young Nick
Morgrim7 (IC)
CF
Robz888 (town)
jotheonah (town -- can someone remind me why?)
Qvist

POE, our scum has to be one of YN, CF, and Qvist, right?  Qvist says Morg somehow stole his IC, but still thinks he's town.

So if everyone is telling the truth, YN or CF.  CF is VLA, so I'd like to at least hear what YN is thinking, what his card did, etc.

CF is town. I investigated him with my N1 spy.

I can confirm that this is true.  At least the town part.  Whether he spied me, that is unknown.

[Captain_Frisk]

You know, YN can't lie about table positions anyway, the other person would contradict him.

So here's where I'm at: I have a vig kill in my hand.

It seems like, if we have a group of 3 where one is scum for sure, we can lynch one today and I can vig in the night with 50/50 accuracy.

The problem is, my vig kill is Contraband and the person to my left can tell me one person I can't kill. And that person is Young Nick.

If the person to Young Nick's left is Frisk or Robz, we should lynch him today so that a confTown has veto power over my shot, and I can freely shoot ash or Qvist. If it's either ash or Qvist, then I might not be able to helpful, unless I use the kill semi-investigatively, but I'm not sure if that's wise.

Thoughts?

I am not near Young Nick.

[Captain_Frisk]

I guess that it's important I be explicit about Frisk. I don't straight up know his alignment. I know he had four cards in hand night 2, while Dsell had 3, which implies town.

I played spy night 1.  I can name every card that was in RobZ's hand - which he can validate, proving that I did so.

[Young Nick]

So Robz confirms Frisk as town.
Frisk knows all of the cards in Robz's hand.

Frisk and Robz are part of a special QT. If there were more than one scum left, they would look like perfect scumbuddies. Alas.

[Captain_Frisk]

Wait, so C_F is not confirmed as town? Robz only thinks that this is the case?

Or did someone Sage him?

Also, I can't stress this enough: It should be Qvist/Morgrim. Why do people keep letting this slide? This matters. There was a clear redirect going on or Qvist is blatantly lying. The lying doesn't make sense: No one CC'ed playing the TM's, so he certainly did. TM's also don't make sense to IC someone else. Did Morgrim steal them? Maybe? Did scum redirect to town-Morgrim in hoping that Qvist would contest stronger? Possible, but that's a lot of WIFOM.

It is just scary to see both Morgrim and C_F as confirmed town when they are not in my book.

There is some sort of redirect in this game, or so it seems. Remember this when assuming certain people are confirmed town. Sage could easily have been redirected, too, now that I think about it. I just don't know who/what to believe at this point. It certainly isn't as simple as we are making it out to be.

I am between morgrim and qvist.  I can confirm that QVist has the opportunity to have the cards that he has claimed. 

Someone just claimed to have Moat - what does this do?  Morgrim claims to have secret chambered himself night 1, and we assume that the N1 night kill (can't remember who) also played a secret chamber.

If moat protects self, then secret chamber can't, or vice versa.  Presumaly they would have at least someone different powers.

Also - if morgrim is telling the truth, then strongman kill must have been used N1, and then couldn't have broken the alleged protection last night.

[Captain_Frisk]

And look at that, I'm all caught up.     Do we have a vote count? 

[Archetype]

I'll have one up soon. I have to somewhere now./color]

[ashersky]

Wait, so C_F is not confirmed as town? Robz only thinks that this is the case?

Or did someone Sage him?

Also, I can't stress this enough: It should be Qvist/Morgrim. Why do people keep letting this slide? This matters. There was a clear redirect going on or Qvist is blatantly lying. The lying doesn't make sense: No one CC'ed playing the TM's, so he certainly did. TM's also don't make sense to IC someone else. Did Morgrim steal them? Maybe? Did scum redirect to town-Morgrim in hoping that Qvist would contest stronger? Possible, but that's a lot of WIFOM.

It is just scary to see both Morgrim and C_F as confirmed town when they are not in my book.

There is some sort of redirect in this game, or so it seems. Remember this when assuming certain people are confirmed town. Sage could easily have been redirected, too, now that I think about it. I just don't know who/what to believe at this point. It certainly isn't as simple as we are making it out to be.

I am between morgrim and qvist.  I can confirm that QVist has the opportunity to have the cards that he has claimed. 

Someone just claimed to have Moat - what does this do?  Morgrim claims to have secret chambered himself night 1, and we assume that the N1 night kill (can't remember who) also played a secret chamber.

If moat protects self, then secret chamber can't, or vice versa.  Presumaly they would have at least someone different powers.

Also - if morgrim is telling the truth, then strongman kill must have been used N1, and then couldn't have broken the alleged protection last night.

I have Moat, it self protects, not just from NKs, but attacks.

I used Bishop on Galz last night, so strongman had to be used last night.  Is it possible more than one mafia had the same "promo" card?

[Robz888]

Wait, so C_F is not confirmed as town? Robz only thinks that this is the case?

Or did someone Sage him?

Also, I can't stress this enough: It should be Qvist/Morgrim. Why do people keep letting this slide? This matters. There was a clear redirect going on or Qvist is blatantly lying. The lying doesn't make sense: No one CC'ed playing the TM's, so he certainly did. TM's also don't make sense to IC someone else. Did Morgrim steal them? Maybe? Did scum redirect to town-Morgrim in hoping that Qvist would contest stronger? Possible, but that's a lot of WIFOM.

It is just scary to see both Morgrim and C_F as confirmed town when they are not in my book.

There is some sort of redirect in this game, or so it seems. Remember this when assuming certain people are confirmed town. Sage could easily have been redirected, too, now that I think about it. I just don't know who/what to believe at this point. It certainly isn't as simple as we are making it out to be.

I am between morgrim and qvist.  I can confirm that QVist has the opportunity to have the cards that he has claimed. 

Someone just claimed to have Moat - what does this do?  Morgrim claims to have secret chambered himself night 1, and we assume that the N1 night kill (can't remember who) also played a secret chamber.

If moat protects self, then secret chamber can't, or vice versa.  Presumaly they would have at least someone different powers.

Also - if morgrim is telling the truth, then strongman kill must have been used N1, and then couldn't have broken the alleged protection last night.

Frisk, Morgrim is an IC. The only people not cleared by investigation are Qvist, YN, ashersky, and you. You are sort of cleared by Joth.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 4.1:

ashersky (3) -- Robz888, Qvist, jotheonah, {L-1}

Not Voting (4) -- Morgrim7, Young Nick, Captain_Frisk, ashersky

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Day 4 Lynch Deadline is December 13th at 5:30 PM Forum Time.

[Captain_Frisk]

Robz

Hypothetically as a mod how would you resolve an Ic declaration with driving a bus?

[Robz888]

Robz

Hypothetically as a mod how would you resolve an Ic declaration with driving a bus?

It's mod declared, it has to be true. That would be too bastardly.

It's a card that does it, so it has to be card that was available to scum, too. Meaning it's just a Card that forces the mod to mod-confirm your alignment. Meaning even if it were directed to someone else, I think it still holds true. If it were directed to Morgrim and he were scum, I would expect it to mod-confirm him as scum.

[ashersky]

Robz

Hypothetically as a mod how would you resolve an Ic declaration with driving a bus?

It's mod declared, it has to be true. That would be too bastardly.

It's a card that does it, so it has to be card that was available to scum, too. Meaning it's just a Card that forces the mod to mod-confirm your alignment. Meaning even if it were directed to someone else, I think it still holds true. If it were directed to Morgrim and he were scum, I would expect it to mod-confirm him as scum.

I agree with this.

I think I'm okay with a Qvist vote today.  YN has twice told the truth about his cards that I can confirm, so that's good enough for me to believe him over Qvist at this point.  I think Q's been shifty with his story enough that we should lynch.\

Vote: Qvist

[Young Nick]

Yet Qvist played TM's and you agree that TM's would tell us one's alignment. If that is so, why would Qvist ever do that?

Here's a theory: maybe Treasure Maps let you name a player and the mod will confirm that player's alignment at the start of the next day. If this is so, then Qvist used it as an IC-or-out on Morgrim.

This seems feasible, but useless to scum (either declare themselves or create an IC).

[ashersky]

Yet Qvist played TM's and you agree that TM's would tell us one's alignment. If that is so, why would Qvist ever do that?

Here's a theory: maybe Treasure Maps let you name a player and the mod will confirm that player's alignment at the start of the next day. If this is so, then Qvist used it as an IC-or-out on Morgrim.

This seems feasible, but useless to scum (either declare themselves or create an IC).

Did I agree TMs would give alignment?  I don't recall saying that.  Might be a miscommunication there.

I don't know what TMs would do, but since it's all made up, it's moot to try and guess.  I know you didn't lie about what you played because I 1) investigated you N1 and 2) have a Tactician.

[Young Nick]

In your #875, you seemingly are agreeing with a Robz quote. In that quote, Robz says it would have to mod-confirm alignment or else it would be bastardly.

I guess you didn't mean to agree with that specific part of what he said. Miscommunication.

[Young Nick]

Bleh I have a final in 9 hours I shouldn't be doing this right now.

[ashersky]

In your #875, you seemingly are agreeing with a Robz quote. In that quote, Robz says it would have to mod-confirm alignment or else it would be bastardly.

I guess you didn't mean to agree with that specific part of what he said. Miscommunication.

Oh, right, sorry.  I agreed with Robz that the Mod wouldn't confirm scum as IC because that would be really bastardly.  I don't know why Treasure Map would do that, though.

[Qvist]

What you all said regarding Morgrim has to be IC, because mod wouldn't lie, actually makes sense. So I think we can assume Morgrim is town, if this is true, I'm sorry that I attacked you.

Regarding the "Qvist is scum debate": I said everything I know and only have that one attack card that I got from Morgrim.
CF confirmed my cards. So if I'm scum, I couldn't have played 5 cards right? But I played Outpost+Navigator, 2 TMs and Masquerade.
I think this clears me. No-one couterclaimed my TMs which clears me as town twice.

That leaves Young Nick and ashersky as top scum reads in my opinion.
Who has ashersky on his right? Can anyone confirm the cards that he claims he has in his hand?

[Young Nick]

So if I'm scum, I couldn't have played 5 cards right? But I played Outpost+Navigator, 2 TMs and Masquerade.
I think this clears me. No-one couterclaimed my TMs which clears me as town twice.

So you have one card in-hand that you got from Morgrim? This does give me pause.

[Qvist]

So if I'm scum, I couldn't have played 5 cards right? But I played Outpost+Navigator, 2 TMs and Masquerade.
I think this clears me. No-one couterclaimed my TMs which clears me as town twice.

So you have one card in-hand that you got from Morgrim? This does give me pause.

I don't know why this gave you a pause, but yeah, this is true. I already said that a while ago.

[ashersky]

So if I'm scum, I couldn't have played 5 cards right? But I played Outpost+Navigator, 2 TMs and Masquerade.
I think this clears me. No-one couterclaimed my TMs which clears me as town twice.

So you have one card in-hand that you got from Morgrim? This does give me pause.

I wish Morgrim was around to confirm or counter Qvist's claims.

[Qvist]

Just for clarification, I already mentioned it here:

So after Outpost+Navigator and 2 Treasure Maps I only had one card left, like I have planned this. It's Masquerade. It let me exchange a card from my hand with someone else's card. But I have no card, so I basically can steal a card. I chose Morgrim. He has Smugglers, Market Square and Steward and a fourth card, an attack, that I stole. But I think Morgrim is innocent because he has still 4 cards in hand right? So I know have to find out whom I should target this night.

[jotheonah]

If your attack is a vig, than we could win tonight. You target Young Nick, I target you, we lynch ashersky, Nobody left but conftown.

Even if we're somehow wrong, there'll still be three players left so it won't be game over.

[Qvist]

No vig unfortunately

[jotheonah]

All this talk, I still haven't seen a better plan than lynch ash, vig Qvist, lynch YN. I'll wait for Frisk and Morgrim7 to weigh in, but I really think it's a plan.

[Qvist]

All this talk, I still haven't seen a better plan than lynch ash, vig Qvist, lynch YN. I'll wait for Frisk and Morgrim7 to weigh in, but I really think it's a plan.

I still don't understand why I'm not cleared. How else could I possibly played 5 cards?

[jotheonah]

do we KNOW that you played all five of those cards other than by your word? has every one of them shown up in the discard pile? Do we have confirmation that they all did what you say they did?

[jotheonah]

If we agree that Qvist IS cleared, then we can just lynch Young Nick and then Qvist can clear me to shoot ash.

[Qvist]

do we KNOW that you played all five of those cards other than by your word? has every one of them shown up in the discard pile? Do we have confirmation that they all did what you say they did?

Outpost+Navigator is pretty much confirmed as I was the only one who played 2 cards on Day 1. What I said about Navigator was true.
TMs cleared someone as IC although it wasn't me (like intended).
Someelse played Masquerade (I have to look up who), but he could possibly confirm what it does.
No-one counterclaimed on all of the above. CF (who is on my left) did say that my hand is possible.

[Captain_Frisk]

do we KNOW that you played all five of those cards other than by your word? has every one of them shown up in the discard pile? Do we have confirmation that they all did what you say they did?

Outpost+Navigator is pretty much confirmed as I was the only one who played 2 cards on Day 1. What I said about Navigator was true.
TMs cleared someone as IC although it wasn't me (like intended).
Someelse played Masquerade (I have to look up who), but he could possibly confirm what it does.
No-one counterclaimed on all of the above. CF (who is on my left) did say that my hand is possible.

Who is on your right?

[Captain_Frisk]

do we KNOW that you played all five of those cards other than by your word? has every one of them shown up in the discard pile? Do we have confirmation that they all did what you say they did?

Outpost+Navigator is pretty much confirmed as I was the only one who played 2 cards on Day 1. What I said about Navigator was true.
TMs cleared someone as IC although it wasn't me (like intended).
Someelse played Masquerade (I have to look up who), but he could possibly confirm what it does.
No-one counterclaimed on all of the above. CF (who is on my left) did say that my hand is possible.

Who is on your right?

I ask so I can confirm that you didn't pass a treasure map through.

[Qvist]

Young Nick is the player to my right, joth.

[...]

I will do some research now and try figuring out what cards Young Nick has still in his hand as he is my right player.

[Captain_Frisk]

Young Nick - can you confirm the cards that you had passed to you from Qvist?

[Qvist]

Hey and Young Nick what I just noticed: Why didn't you play Tactician turn 1 if it let you see how many cards each player has in hand?

[Qvist]

I mean you would have known who is scum from the beginning right?

[ashersky]

do we KNOW that you played all five of those cards other than by your word? has every one of them shown up in the discard pile? Do we have confirmation that they all did what you say they did?

Also, the number of cards is not indicative of anything after N1.  For example, I enlarged my hand size on N2.  There are cards that do that, which others can confirm.

I do not believe Qvist is cleared.

I think the plan ought to start with lynching Qvist, then a combination of roleblocking/investigation me and YN, if we're convinced still that we are the outliers, and we haven't won the game by lynching Qvist.

[Qvist]

do we KNOW that you played all five of those cards other than by your word? has every one of them shown up in the discard pile? Do we have confirmation that they all did what you say they did?

Also, the number of cards is not indicative of anything after N1.  For example, I enlarged my hand size on N2.  There are cards that do that, which others can confirm.

I do not believe Qvist is cleared.

I think the plan ought to start with lynching Qvist, then a combination of roleblocking/investigation me and YN, if we're convinced still that we are the outliers, and we haven't won the game by lynching Qvist.

You said it yourself. AFTER N1
But until no-one has played a card so far. I agree that might depend on which phase it gets played and yeah you can't say it for sure, but you still want to play it because you can clear a lot of people.

[Qvist]

Blah, so many missing words. I should reread before posting.

You said it yourself. AFTER N1
But until then no-one has played a card so far. I agree that it might depend on which phase it gets played and yeah you can't say it for sure, but you still want to play it because you can clear a lot of people.

And to say it differently. If you don't want to play it Day 1, when does it give you any real benefit beside turn 1?

[Young Nick]

I thought that WW on Militia would lead me to scum because it doesn't seem like town would have incentive to draft a card that would seem to make you choose to hurt others.

I figured that I could use my Tactician later on. I acknowledge that this logic would lead to contradictions: If I expect someone to play discard attacks, I can't be sure if someone has fewer cards due to discard or whether it is because they are scum and started with less.

With 20/20 hindsight, no, my play wasn't optimal.

[ashersky]

I thought that WW on Militia would lead me to scum because it doesn't seem like town would have incentive to draft a card that would seem to make you choose to hurt others.

I figured that I could use my Tactician later on. I acknowledge that this logic would lead to contradictions: If I expect someone to play discard attacks, I can't be sure if someone has fewer cards due to discard or whether it is because they are scum and started with less.

With 20/20 hindsight, no, my play wasn't optimal.

Who Militia'd, though?  I was hit by the discard attack.

[jotheonah]

Robz, why DID you draft Militia?

[jotheonah]

Dsell, trolling after his lynch:

Fellow scum: forget the treasure map plan, it's not going to work.

Discuss.

[Captain_Frisk]

Young Nick - can you confirm the cards that you had passed to you from Qvist?

[Captain_Frisk]

I thought that WW on Militia would lead me to scum because it doesn't seem like town would have incentive to draft a card that would seem to make you choose to hurt others.

I figured that I could use my Tactician later on. I acknowledge that this logic would lead to contradictions: If I expect someone to play discard attacks, I can't be sure if someone has fewer cards due to discard or whether it is because they are scum and started with less.

With 20/20 hindsight, no, my play wasn't optimal.

Who Militia'd, though?  I was hit by the discard attack.

I can confirm that RobZ did in fact have a militia in hand.

[jotheonah]

This is Galz clearing Robz:

As to my second investigation target (N1 was Joth, who's town), I peeked at Robz888 last night, out of curiosity if he would be trying a "D1 lynch your partner" play on Dsell (the lynch didn't happen until D2, but Robz was pushing what felt like a really weak/bad case D1).

Robz is also town.

Of course in both the case of Robz and Joth, they aren't 100% IC's to me, because there's the chance my targets were bussed/switched - however I find that very unlikely. I didn't breadcrumb that I had two Investigative cards in my hand D1, so I could've effectively played anything that night. Scum would've had to guess not only that I was playing that card type, but also which of their members I would be investigating (in order to switch themselves with a townie). It just doesn't seem to be all that likely.

N2 they might have guessed that I would follow up with another investigative role, but again, in order to bus my target effectively they would've needed to guess which of their members I would target - and given Robz push for a Dsell lynch, if he was indeed scum he would likely be the "hidden" one - ie. The one they were least worried about being investigated.

So both nights I find it rather unlikely that my results were compromised. Not impossible of course, but unlikely.

In light of the fact that ash was militia'd, no one has come forward, and we know Robz has a militia, do we need to reconsider his conf town status and consider the possibility that Galzria's N2 investigation was, in fact, bus-driven?

[Robz888]

This is Galz clearing Robz:

As to my second investigation target (N1 was Joth, who's town), I peeked at Robz888 last night, out of curiosity if he would be trying a "D1 lynch your partner" play on Dsell (the lynch didn't happen until D2, but Robz was pushing what felt like a really weak/bad case D1).

Robz is also town.

Of course in both the case of Robz and Joth, they aren't 100% IC's to me, because there's the chance my targets were bussed/switched - however I find that very unlikely. I didn't breadcrumb that I had two Investigative cards in my hand D1, so I could've effectively played anything that night. Scum would've had to guess not only that I was playing that card type, but also which of their members I would be investigating (in order to switch themselves with a townie). It just doesn't seem to be all that likely.

N2 they might have guessed that I would follow up with another investigative role, but again, in order to bus my target effectively they would've needed to guess which of their members I would target - and given Robz push for a Dsell lynch, if he was indeed scum he would likely be the "hidden" one - ie. The one they were least worried about being investigated.

So both nights I find it rather unlikely that my results were compromised. Not impossible of course, but unlikely.

In light of the fact that ash was militia'd, no one has come forward, and we know Robz has a militia, do we need to reconsider his conf town status and consider the possibility that Galzria's N2 investigation was, in fact, bus-driven?

I mean... I also pushed for the Dsell lynch, basically harder than anyone else. I like built that wagon. I still have Militia.

[jotheonah]

We'll consider that too. I just think it's important we do our due diligence as long as there's still unexplained phenomena. Any thoughts on Dsell's taunt in light of the Qvist-Morgrim conundrum, Robz?

[ashersky]

Is it time we just claim full hands now?  I think we're at the point where the right series of lynches, even including town (like me, for example), will win this for us anyway.  I understand Robz point from before that he's willing to mislynch me to guarantee the town win overall.

A full hand claim, with our actions that got us there, would go a long way to clearing things up, and we can catch liars.

I'd suggest the following order:

Qvist, YN, me, Robz, Frisk, Joth, Morgrim

And the following format:

Game opening hand:  Card 1 - 5
Night 1 Action: Card, Target, Result
Night 1 stuff that happened to you.

D2 opening hand:  Card 1-?
Night 2 Action: Card, Target, Result
Night 2 stuff that happened to you.

D3 opening hand: Card 1-?
Night 3 Action: Card, Target, Result
Night 3 stuff that happened to you

D4 opening hand: Card 1-?

[Robz888]

We'll consider that too. I just think it's important we do our due diligence as long as there's still unexplained phenomena. Any thoughts on Dsell's taunt in light of the Qvist-Morgrim conundrum, Robz?

I don't think there's any conundrum there. Morgrim IS town. it says so. There might be like some one in a hundred chance of weird bastardliness, sure. I'm just not going to count on it. It seems we have to rule it out, just on a likelihood basis.

Frisk is the one that it kind of sucks to rule out, cuz there we really don't know for sure. But we have a good guess. So I think we've narrowed it down in a reasonable way.

[Qvist]

Dsell, trolling after his lynch:

Fellow scum: forget the treasure map plan, it's not going to work.

Discuss.

I think he just trolled here.

[Captain_Frisk]

We'll consider that too. I just think it's important we do our due diligence as long as there's still unexplained phenomena. Any thoughts on Dsell's taunt in light of the Qvist-Morgrim conundrum, Robz?

I don't think there's any conundrum there. Morgrim IS town. it says so. There might be like some one in a hundred chance of weird bastardliness, sure. I'm just not going to count on it. It seems we have to rule it out, just on a likelihood basis.

Frisk is the one that it kind of sucks to rule out, cuz there we really don't know for sure. But we have a good guess. So I think we've narrowed it down in a reasonable way.

Would you like me to disclose the cards in your hand so you know that I played scout night 1, and then the # of cards in my hand per joth's investigation clears me?

[Captain_Frisk]

We'll consider that too. I just think it's important we do our due diligence as long as there's still unexplained phenomena. Any thoughts on Dsell's taunt in light of the Qvist-Morgrim conundrum, Robz?

I don't think there's any conundrum there. Morgrim IS town. it says so. There might be like some one in a hundred chance of weird bastardliness, sure. I'm just not going to count on it. It seems we have to rule it out, just on a likelihood basis.

Frisk is the one that it kind of sucks to rule out, cuz there we really don't know for sure. But we have a good guess. So I think we've narrowed it down in a reasonable way.

Would you like me to disclose the cards in your hand so you know that I played scout night 1, and then the # of cards in my hand per joth's investigation clears me?

I mean, I think our Day 2 interactions made it pretty clear I knew what was in your hand.

[jotheonah]

Of course Dsell was trolling.

Also, Qvist is the last scum.

Here's my theory:

Robs is right- TM is a card that mod announces someone's alignment. But you don't need two - you only need one.

Qvist accidentally drafts it, and asks his scum buddies in the QT how scum could use that card to advantage. Someone suggests using it to clear Morgrim, an easy frame, and then pushing the idea that it was bus-driven.

Dsell says "no that's stupid." They table it. Cut to Dsell's deathbed, he really wants qvist to not do it.

It all fits, and it explains how qvist could be scum despite claimed cards.


(Over the course of writing this, my iPhone tried to turn qvist into: whist, waist, and aviation.)

[ashersky]

I also agree Qvist is the last scum.  He's the only one who is not cleared, even slightly, by anyone.  I mean, we all have points in our favor, all of us, except Qvist.  POE there, anyway.

As mentioned, if we're wrong, we can have some plans in place for the night to include investigations or roleblocking, since we have those available.

[Qvist]

You need two Treasure Maps for sure. How else could I have played 2 Treasure Maps in my turn?
Why is everyone ignoring the fact that I played 5 cards so far?

I'm in favor of ashersky proposal. I claim everything I know. You see soon that I'm not lying.

Game opening hand:  Navigator, Outpost, Treasure Map, Treasure Map, Masquerade
Night 1 Action: Outpost+Navigator investigating Robz and Dsell. Outpost let me choose a card in hand which let me choose a target. Instead of choosing one target I can choose two. Navigator let me see which card was played on the targeted person. Spy and Scout were played on Dsell and Spy was played on Robz. All 3 results were confirmed.
Nothing happened to me in the night.

D2 opening hand:  Treasure Map, Treasure Map, Masquerade
Night 2 Action: 2 Treasure Maps, this should clear me as Innocent Child. But Morgrim was named IC instead.
Nothing happened to me in the night.

D3 opening hand: Masquerade
Night 3 Action: Masquerade let me exchange a card from an opponents hand with a card from my hand. I don't have a card in my hand. So I can steal one. I targetted Morgrim because I wanted to find out what happened in the last night. And I stole an Discard Attack from him.
Nothing happened to me in the night.


Young Nick, you're next in claiming

[Young Nick]

I know I need to claim. Just no time right now. Finals week. Apologies. But, yeah, academics and such come first. Will hopefully post it later tonight.

[jotheonah]

Pretty lucky, you drafting both treasure maps. How'd you manage that? What made you take the first one, knowing that if someone else took the other one it would probably be useless?


Is that good game design, really? Here's another possibility. If you play a Treasure Map and someone else has the other one, it confirms their alignment instead of yours.

[jotheonah]

(and plays both maps)

[Qvist]

I got lucky, yeah. I took the Treasure Map because it sounded like a strong card in the right situation and also one that might benefit town. I drafted this in hand 3, not thinking there might be another one. And CF gave me 2 cards in hand 4, one of which was another Treasure Map which of course I kept. The other card was YN's Wishing Well. CF can confirm this for sure.

[Robz888]

I would also bet on Q being the final scum.

[jotheonah]

Well, let's just lynch him then.


After these claims, I guess.

[Captain_Frisk]

Well, let's just lynch him then.


After these claims, I guess.

I think we might want to claim instead.  With Young nick, I think I can clear Qvist - and I've been suspicious of him all game.

[Qvist]

Well, let's just lynch him then.


After these claims, I guess.

I think we might want to claim instead.  With Young nick, I think I can clear Qvist - and I've been suspicious of him all game.

While were waiting, I did a reread. I just noticed that Morgrim claimed he had played Secret Chamber what gives him full protection at night. (#505)
ashersky claimed that he has Moat which gives him full protection at night too. (#820)

So I think one of them is lying.

I know that this is very unlikely and is no bastard game. But please still consider this:
I won't copy the card text from Treasure Map, but it basically says that the person who played 2 of them, will be confirmed as Innocent Child.
So, what would happen if scum would play this? The card text has to be executed, right? The moderator has to confirm as IC in my opinion.
So I believe there was a redirect from my Treasure Maps. And there's no reason that scum would redirect this to another town player right?
Morgrim did no claim in Day 1, posted only "hi all" on Day 2, posted nothing on Day 3 and after he was confirmed IC he only posted that he was confused and he didn't knew that. He didn't post since all the Treasure Map / Innocent Child discussion. This makes me believe he is the last scum.

And if he's not, then it's probably ashersky.

My proposal: Let's lynch ashersky (because of his Moat) and vig Morgrim. And if both are town, feel free to kill me tomorrow because then I have no cards in hand either way and won't be useful for town anymore anyway.

[jotheonah]

Isn't this exactly what I said the mysterious "treasure map plan" consisted of? Qvist using the TMs to IC Morgrim and then trying to feed us a story about bus driving?

[jotheonah]

More specifically, using Morgrim being Morgrim to paint a case on him.

Mod, Morgrim is really not playing this game anymore. Could we get him prodded or replaced please?

[Archetype]

Prod sent. 48 hours to respond. If not, I'll ask for a replacement.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 4.1:

ashersky (3) -- Robz888, Qvist, jotheonah, {L-1}
Qvist (1) -- ashersky

Not Voting (3) -- Morgrim7, Young Nick, Captain_Frisk

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Day 4 Lynch Deadline is December 13th at 5:30 PM Forum Time. (less than 48 hours)

In other news, Morgrim has not responded to his prod. I'll start asking around for a replacement.

[ashersky]

Isn't this exactly what I said the mysterious "treasure map plan" consisted of? Qvist using the TMs to IC Morgrim and then trying to feed us a story about bus driving?

Could you possibly unvote?  Scum is probably already on the wagon, but still, uncomfortable place to be.

[Archetype]

Voltgloss has subbed in.

He is 'Morgrim7' for any and all reasons.

[ashersky]

Voltgloss has subbed in.

He is 'Morgrim7' for any and all reasons.

Volt, have you been following, or will you need to read?

If you can comment on the Treasure Maps, Secret Chamber, and your apparent ICness, that'd be great.

Also, any other cards you may have played, actions against you, etc...

[Voltgloss]

Hey folks.  I have been following along, so I should be able to weigh in pretty quickly.  Seems to me we are in the final-ish stages, and the biggest question mark is "what has Morgrim been doing every night."  I've just received that info dump and am parsing through it now; will report back once complete.

[ashersky]

Hey folks.  I have been following along, so I should be able to weigh in pretty quickly.  Seems to me we are in the final-ish stages, and the biggest question mark is "what has Morgrim been doing every night."  I've just received that info dump and am parsing through it now; will report back once complete.

Good news.  Yes, I think we're all in agreement that we're close to finishing this game up, so welcome your thoughts.  I think there a few plans out there, including Robz's "kill everyone," my "kill Qvist + use our night actions smartly," and scum!Qvist's "kill town" plans to look over.

[Voltgloss]

I can definitely say right off the bat that my being announced as an Innocent Child had nothing to do with any card that I played.

[Voltgloss]

I can confirm that Qvist correctly reported the contents of my hand when he described the results of his Night 3 play of Masquerade.

[Voltgloss]

I had 4 cards in hand when Qvist played Masquerade because "I" (Morgrim) did not play any card either Night 2 or Night 3.  Shocking, I know.

The only card I played all game is Secret Chamber on Night 1.

Secret Chamber does not provide "full protection" a la ash's description of Moat.  What Secret Chamber does is make it appear that your hand is empty and thus confound any attempts to look at your hand or take cards from your hand on the night that you play it.  (This explains why pps got killed Night 1 despite playing Secret Chamber, without having to explain it via scum using their strongman kill.  SC does nothing to protect you from being nightkilled.)

[Voltgloss]

Am I correct that no one has confessed to playing Forge?  And that Young Nick claims to have played Tactician, but that doesn't appear in the discard?

[Voltgloss]

I can confirm that when Frisk played Spy on "me" Night 1 and got the result "0 cards in hand," that's the effect Secret Chamber has.  It makes it appear that you, well, have 0 cards in hand.

[ashersky]

Am I correct that no one has confessed to playing Forge?  And that Young Nick claims to have played Tactician, but that doesn't appear in the discard?

Correct, no one has owned up to Forge yet.  Best guess is Robz, since I don't think he's admitted to anything, other than NOT playing Militia.

[ashersky]

Oh, can I request that you don't lynch me overnight?  I mean, really, it's lame to wake up dead.

[Voltgloss]

I believe this a summary of everyone's claimed card plays:

ashersky:
- N1: Played Scrying Pool.  Learned the power of Young Nick's played card (Wishing Well).
- N2: Played Market Square.  Obtained Dsell's Smugglers and Tactician.
- N3: Played Bishop, attempting to protect Galzria.

Young Nick:
- N1: Played Wishing Well.  Learned that Robz has Militia.
- N2: Did nothing.
- N3: Played Tactician (which does not appear in the discard).  Learned the number of cards everyone has.  (I don't think he's claimed his results yet?)

Captain_Frisk:
- N1: Played Spy, seeing Robz's hand and trying to see mine (but saw "zero" cards per my Secret Chamber).
- N2: Played Native Village.  Invited Robz into a QT.
- N3:

Robz888:
- N1: Played Scout on Dsell and Galzria, seeing what cards they played.
- N2: Played Bishop, protecting joth from nightkills.
- N3:

jotheonah:
- N1: Played Spy, seeing Frisk's and Dsell's hands.
- N2: Did nothing.
- N3: Played Torturer, trying to jailkeep Galzria.

Qvist:
- N1: Played Outpost/Navigator, seeing the cards played on Dsell and on Robz.
- N2: Played two Treasure Maps, trying to become IC-declared, but somehow I was declared IC instead.
- N3: Played Masquerade, looking at my hand and taking a card from it.

Volt/Morgrim:
- N1: Played Secret Chamber, appearing to have zero cards.
- N2: Did nothing.
- N3: Did nothing.

Is all of this accurate?

[Voltgloss]

I think Young Nick really needs to announce the results of his claim to have played Tactician.

[Voltgloss]

ash, I don't plan to vote anyone until I get some of these outstanding questions answered.  There's too much hanging unresolved for my taste.

Here's one of them:  Can anyone confirm what Lookout does?  It was in the discard Day 3 but no one claimed to have played it.  The assumption seems to be that Eevee played it - but if someone knows what Lookout does we can gauge whether that's likely the case.

[ashersky]

I believe this a summary of everyone's claimed card plays:

ashersky:
- N1: Played Scrying Pool.  Learned the power of Young Nick's played card (Wishing Well).
- N2: Played Market Square.  Obtained Dsell's Smugglers and Tactician.
- N3: Played Bishop, attempting to protect Galzria.

Young Nick:
- N1: Played Wishing Well.  Learned that Robz has Militia.
- N2: Did nothing.
- N3: Played Tactician (which does not appear in the discard).  Learned the number of cards everyone has.  (I don't think he's claimed his results yet?)

Is all of this accurate?

What I can comment on is above.  You have my list correct.  You should also add that I was attacked on N3 by a discarder, and was forced to discard a card.

My N1 power via Scrying Pool was to target a player (YN) and I got the exact wording of what the card they played does.  I did not get the name.

[Voltgloss]

During the drafting process, I sat with cayvie on my left and Frisk on my right.  I can confirm that I twice passed Treasure Map to Frisk (as part of the cards I didn't take).  This supports Qvist's claim of having two Treasure Maps, as (1) Frisk passed cards to Qvist on his right, and (2) Frisk has not claimed to have taken Treasure Map during drafting.

[Voltgloss]

Qvist, during the drafting process, what card sets did you pass to Young Nick?

[Voltgloss]

ash, you claimed at the beginning of the game to have started with a Seaside card.  What was it?  When did you receive it during drafting?

[Voltgloss]

I think Young Nick should claim the entire contents of his starting 5-card hand.  The only one of those cards that has been confirmed is the Wishing Well he played on Night 1. 

[ashersky]

ash, you claimed at the beginning of the game to have started with a Seaside card.  What was it?  When did you receive it during drafting?

Embargo.  I chose it third or fourth.  I don't have the messages back and forth with Arch saved.

[Voltgloss]

Robz, please explain why you chose to play Bishop on joth Night 2.  Why didn't you play it on Eevee?

[Voltgloss]

ash, you claimed at the beginning of the game to have started with a Seaside card.  What was it?  When did you receive it during drafting?

Embargo.  I chose it third or fourth.  I don't have the messages back and forth with Arch saved.

Thanks.  Who was seated on your left and thus was passing cards to you?

[ashersky]

Robz was to my left.

[Voltgloss]

Robz was to my left.

Robz, can you confirm what cardsets you passed to ash during drafting?

[Voltgloss]

I would like answers to my various questions, but at present, I think the most likely last scum is Young Nick.  There are just way too many question marks over his supposed hand of cards and play choices each night. 

In particular, the simplest explanation for Night 3 is that Young Nick did not play Tactician at all, but in fact played Forge (and that Forge's mystery effect is that it requires multiple people to discard cards).  I expect Young Nick has Tactician and so knows what it does; but there is no evidence he played it, and so I'm inclined to disbelieve that he did.

With that, I'm going to sleep now.

[ashersky]

I would like answers to my various questions, but at present, I think the most likely last scum is Young Nick.  There are just way too many question marks over his supposed hand of cards and play choices each night. 

In particular, the simplest explanation for Night 3 is that Young Nick did not play Tactician at all, but in fact played Forge (and that Forge's mystery effect is that it requires multiple people to discard cards).  I expect Young Nick has Tactician and so knows what it does; but there is no evidence he played it, and so I'm inclined to disbelieve that he did.

With that, I'm going to sleep now.

This makes sense.  I suspected YN on D1, which is why I used Scrying Pool on him.  He's confirmed everything as expected, which is why he was semi-starting to clear himself, and Qvist's story wasn't making as much sense.

With the confirmable 2 Treasure Maps things, I do think that helps Qvist's case out.

Of course, YN can easily hammer me, given my L-1 status.

[Young Nick]

I'm not going to hammer. Tactician results:

Robz888: 3 cards
ashersky: 2 cards
Morgrim7/Volt: 3 cards
jotheonah: 3 cards
Captain_Frisk: 2 cards
Qvist: 1 card
Young Nick: 3 cards

[Qvist]

Qvist, during the drafting process, what card sets did you pass to Young Nick?

Ok, wasn't so hard in the end. If Young Nick wasn't lying in the set claim, he has Cutpurse and Forge in his hand and an Intrigue card that he had from the start.
Young Nick, what was the result of your Wishing Well, you didn't tell about that yet? And what was the result of your Tactician? You didn't tell about that either. And why didn't you play a card in turn 2?

[Qvist]

And I must say that Morgrim aka Voltgloss confirms my story is great, but sort of surprises me.

I think I unvote until I have an idea what's going on.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm not going to hammer. Tactician results:

Robz888: 3 cards
ashersky: 2 cards
Morgrim7/Volt: 3 cards
jotheonah: 3 cards
Captain_Frisk: 2 cards
Qvist: 1 card
Young Nick: 3 cards

What does tactician do?  When did you play it?

[Qvist]

CF can you confirm that you only have 2 cards in your hand?

[Captain_Frisk]

CF can you confirm that you only have 2 cards in your hand?

Yes.  Night 1 spy on robz + morgrim.  Night 2 native village on robz.  Night 3 apparently hit by discard attack and tossed watchtower.  Did not play card due to vla, but I'm not worked up about that.

How do other people have more cards?

[Qvist]

Wait. So we have ashersky and Captain_Frisk claiming that they got hit by a discard attack. If jotheonah's Torturer indeed jailkeep (and not discard what is more fitting) there is no way that this can be true. The only card who wasn't claimed so far is Forge. But that doesn't sound like a discard attack.

It's also strange that Young Nick claimed to have played Tactician which can't be proven. But I know one of his 5 cards was a Forge.
YN any idea why Tactician isn't in the discard?

Robz, what did you play last night?

[Voltgloss]

The only card who wasn't claimed so far is Forge. But that doesn't sound like a discard attack.

Neither does Steward.  But I have Steward, and one of the things it can do (like the real Steward, it offers a choice of three options) is force a player to discard a card.

So I would not be surprised to learn that Forge is also a discard attack.

[Captain_Frisk]

Wait. So we have ashersky and Captain_Frisk claiming that they got hit by a discard attack. If jotheonah's Torturer indeed jailkeep (and not discard what is more fitting) there is no way that this can be true. The only card who wasn't claimed so far is Forge. But that doesn't sound like a discard attack.

It's also strange that Young Nick claimed to have played Tactician which can't be proven. But I know one of his 5 cards was a Forge.
YN any idea why Tactician isn't in the discard?

Robz, what did you play last night?

I think everyone claiming will result in Identifying young nick or someone else as a liar.

[ashersky]

Wait. So we have ashersky and Captain_Frisk claiming that they got hit by a discard attack. If jotheonah's Torturer indeed jailkeep (and not discard what is more fitting) there is no way that this can be true. The only card who wasn't claimed so far is Forge. But that doesn't sound like a discard attack.

It's also strange that Young Nick claimed to have played Tactician which can't be proven. But I know one of his 5 cards was a Forge.
YN any idea why Tactician isn't in the discard?

Robz, what did you play last night?

I think everyone claiming will result in Identifying young nick or someone else as a liar.

All, I don't know how to do this and be completely fair to the game and its integrity, but I'd like to suggest a self-imposed thread lock until Archetype comes online.  Unfortunately, I think he needs to address something before we go too far in any direction.

I don't know what else to say without making things worse.

[Voltgloss]

If Young Nick is being truthful, his results identify ash as the last scum.  ash should have 3 cards in hand.  Started with 5, played 3 (one each night), gained 2 from Dsell's hand with Market Square (I have Market Square and can confirm it does this), and had to discard 1 on Night 3.  5-3+2-1=ash should have 3 cards left.

But before I can believe Young Nick, I'd need an explanation of why Forge (which was apparently his card), and not Tactician, is in the discard. 

PPE:  ash, are you saying you think there has been mod error?

[ashersky]

If Young Nick is being truthful, his results identify ash as the last scum.  ash should have 3 cards in hand.  Started with 5, played 3 (one each night), gained 2 from Dsell's hand with Market Square (I have Market Square and can confirm it does this), and had to discard 1 on Night 3.  5-3+2-1=ash should have 3 cards left.

But before I can believe Young Nick, I'd need an explanation of why Forge (which was apparently his card), and not Tactician, is in the discard. 

PPE:  ash, are you saying you think there has been mod error?

Yes.  And you pointed it out.  I thought YN had just messed up his gambit at first, but I do believe an honest mod error can account for it.

I do have three cards, all of which I have referred to during this day (moat, roleblock, and investigation).  If YN were to make this up, he'd have kept track.

Should I just fully explain, or wait for Arch?

[ashersky]

To further clarify my thinking--I saw this possible error as either YN just lying, or a true error that could have led to a mislynch that could have definitely upset some people.  This isn't a bastard game, so I wanted to be up front and let Arch sort it out.

[Voltgloss]

Wait. So we have ashersky and Captain_Frisk claiming that they got hit by a discard attack. If jotheonah's Torturer indeed jailkeep (and not discard what is more fitting) there is no way that this can be true.

Not sure I understand this comment, Qvist.  joth says he jailkept Galzria with Torturer.  Why would that prevent two other players (Frisk and ash) from being hit with a discard attack?

[ashersky]

Wait. So we have ashersky and Captain_Frisk claiming that they got hit by a discard attack. If jotheonah's Torturer indeed jailkeep (and not discard what is more fitting) there is no way that this can be true.

Not sure I understand this comment, Qvist.  joth says he jailkept Galzria with Torturer.  Why would that prevent two other players (Frisk and ash) from being hit with a discard attack?

I think he is saying Joth could be lying about Torturer.

[Qvist]

Wait. So we have ashersky and Captain_Frisk claiming that they got hit by a discard attack. If jotheonah's Torturer indeed jailkeep (and not discard what is more fitting) there is no way that this can be true.

Not sure I understand this comment, Qvist.  joth says he jailkept Galzria with Torturer.  Why would that prevent two other players (Frisk and ash) from being hit with a discard attack?

I think he is saying Joth could be lying about Torturer.

Basically, yes. I know Galzria confirmed jotheonah as town, so I don't think joth is lying. I was just saying that Torturer sounds more like a discard attack than Steward for example. What was the reasoning again why Galzria cleared joth as town?

[Voltgloss]

Galz said that on Night 1, he Copped joth with Sage.

[jotheonah]

Hey folks.  I have been following along, so I should be able to weigh in pretty quickly.  Seems to me we are in the final-ish stages, and the biggest question mark is "what has Morgrim been doing every night."  I've just received that info dump and am parsing through it now; will report back once complete.

Good news.  Yes, I think we're all in agreement that we're close to finishing this game up, so welcome your thoughts.  I think there a few plans out there, including Robz's "kill everyone," my "kill Qvist + use our night actions smartly," and scum!Qvist's "kill town" plans to look over.

RObz's kill everyone? That was MY kill everyone plan.

[Voltgloss]

Frisk, what does Watchtower do?

Ash, I apologize if you said this already, but which card did you discard?

[jotheonah]

Unvote for now.

[Captain_Frisk]

Frisk, what does Watchtower do?

Ash, I apologize if you said this already, but which card did you discard?

I discarded watchtower - with help from mod he to Vla.

If played it lets you see who targeted me over night

[Voltgloss]

Joth, would your roleblock stop scum from making a nightkill?

[Captain_Frisk]

Volt - what does secret chamber do?

[Voltgloss]

Secret Chamber does not provide "full protection" a la ash's description of Moat.  What Secret Chamber does is make it appear that your hand is empty and thus confound any attempts to look at your hand or take cards from your hand on the night that you play it.  (This explains why pps got killed Night 1 despite playing Secret Chamber, without having to explain it via scum using their strongman kill.  SC does nothing to protect you from being nightkilled.)

[jotheonah]

Joth, would your roleblock stop scum from making a nightkill?

Negatory. Just stops a card, as far as I can tell.

[Captain_Frisk]

Secret Chamber does not provide "full protection" a la ash's description of Moat.  What Secret Chamber does is make it appear that your hand is empty and thus confound any attempts to look at your hand or take cards from your hand on the night that you play it.  (This explains why pps got killed Night 1 despite playing Secret Chamber, without having to explain it via scum using their strongman kill.  SC does nothing to protect you from being nightkilled.)

Can you explain why morgrim lied about it then?

[Voltgloss]

Secret Chamber does not provide "full protection" a la ash's description of Moat.  What Secret Chamber does is make it appear that your hand is empty and thus confound any attempts to look at your hand or take cards from your hand on the night that you play it.  (This explains why pps got killed Night 1 despite playing Secret Chamber, without having to explain it via scum using their strongman kill.  SC does nothing to protect you from being nightkilled.)

Can you explain why morgrim lied about it then?

I don't know whether he (1) lied intentionally, (2) misunderstood the card, or (3) understood the card and described it poorly.  If he did lie intentionally, I can't explain why.

[Qvist]

Archetype is currently online. So:

Are the cards in the discard correct?

[Archetype]

Archetype is currently online. So:

Are the cards in the discard correct?

Yes.

[Captain_Frisk]

If Young Nick is being truthful, his results identify ash as the last scum.  ash should have 3 cards in hand.  Started with 5, played 3 (one each night), gained 2 from Dsell's hand with Market Square (I have Market Square and can confirm it does this), and had to discard 1 on Night 3.  5-3+2-1=ash should have 3 cards left.

But before I can believe Young Nick, I'd need an explanation of why Forge (which was apparently his card), and not Tactician, is in the discard. 

PPE:  ash, are you saying you think there has been mod error?

Yes.  And you pointed it out.  I thought YN had just messed up his gambit at first, but I do believe an honest mod error can account for it.

I do have three cards, all of which I have referred to during this day (moat, roleblock, and investigation).  If YN were to make this up, he'd have kept track.

Should I just fully explain, or wait for Arch?

So - with mod confirmation - we now know that either YN or Ashersky is lying?

[Voltgloss]

So - with mod confirmation - we now know that either YN or Ashersky is lying?

That's the simplest explanation, yes.

I am leaning towards a YN lynch today, and if he flips town, an ash lynch tomorrow.  But before we do that, I would like my outstanding questions answered.  Mostly questions directed to YN; a couple questions directed to Robz; and I think one leftover question to ash (that being, "what did you discard" - but again if you answered that previously please let me know and I apologize).

[Captain_Frisk]

before we lynch - why don't we do the full claim?  who you're sitting next to, what cards you had, who you targeted etc.  If we put it all together, we may be able to guarantee that we hit scum today rather than wasting another week.

I suspect YN as well.

[Qvist]

Yeah, but let's YN claim first.

[Captain_Frisk]

All right, I propose the following template for ease of condensing later:

Player to my left: Morgrim
Player to my right: Qvist

Initial Draft
Scout1, Scout2, Scout3, Scout4, Scout5 -> Selected Scout 2
Navigator1, Navigator2, Navigator3, Navigator4 -> Selected Nav3
Chancy1, Chancy2, Chancy3 -> Selected Chance1
Sab1, Sab2 -> Selected Sab1
Thief

Thus - my initial hand was:
Scout2, Nav3, Chance1, Sab1, Thief

Night 1, I played Scout2
It does X
I targeted Y

etc. etc.

[Captain_Frisk]

Do not claim what the remaining cards in your hand do.

[Voltgloss]

I agree with fullclaiming and with Frisk's proposed template.  I suggest this order:

1) Young Nick
2) ashersky
3) Qvist
4) Robz
5) Frisk
6) me
7) joth

I realize some people have effectively fullclaimed already (Qvist, I think ash), but condensing it in one place a la Frisk's template will be very helpful going forward.

Do not claim what the remaining cards in your hand do.

Absolutely agreed.

[Captain_Frisk]

And I think we can have some good discussion after this game regarding lessons learned for modding.

Spy was OP.

[Voltgloss]

All right, I propose the following template for ease of condensing later:

Player to my left: Morgrim
Player to my right: Qvist

Suggest this be modified to say "Original player to my left/right" (i.e., the players involved in the passing of cards during the draft).  Then at the end of the template, identify who is currently sitting to your left/right.

[Voltgloss]

I didn't realize we only have about 30 hours before lynch deadline (tomorrow afternoon EST).

What timezone is Young Nick?  If he has not fullclaimed by tomorrow morning EST (like around 10:00 a.m. or so), I'm voting him and will suggest we lynch him. 

If we lynch YN and he flips town, I do not think joth (or anyone) should use any vig powers tonight.  We have two mislynches to spare so long as no more than 1 person dies each night.  I don't think we should risk messing with that parity - especially with the possibility that scum could redirect a vig kill onto town.  The lynch is safer, because scum can't redirect it.

[Young Nick]

I'm not going to hammer. Tactician results:

Robz888: 3 cards
ashersky: 2 cards
Morgrim7/Volt: 3 cards
jotheonah: 3 cards
Captain_Frisk: 2 cards
Qvist: 1 card
Young Nick: 3 cards

I have received mod-information that ashersky has 3 cards, rather than 2 cards. Sorry about this. Mod will confirm in-thread, or so he told me.

[Voltgloss]

I have received mod-information that ashersky has 3 cards, rather than 2 cards. Sorry about this. Mod will confirm in-thread, or so he told me.

When did you receive this information?

I'm not asking you to break the rules by posting mod-supplied info or timestamps.  I'm just asking for you to say what time you received this mod-information.

Where is your fullclaim?

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm not going to hammer. Tactician results:

Robz888: 3 cards
ashersky: 2 cards
Morgrim7/Volt: 3 cards
jotheonah: 3 cards
Captain_Frisk: 2 cards
Qvist: 1 card
Young Nick: 3 cards

I have received mod-information that ashersky has 3 cards, rather than 2 cards. Sorry about this. Mod will confirm in-thread, or so he told me.

Is this like my dayvig: Cayvie?

[Captain_Frisk]

And YN - where is your fullclaim.

[Young Nick]

Guys, I am sorry. I have exams. This is no scum-excuse. Y'all can go ask Eevee as we have been PM'ing about DS2012 Round 2. Or dondon, because we are at the same university.

I have no idea why Tactician is not in the discard pile. I played it. I (now) have everybody's correct hand-size. I have three cards in my hand. I would not like to have to claim them, but I will:

I have Forge, Cutpurse, and Nobles. Initially Qvist was to my left and Eevee to my right.

I have not yet played Forge.

[Voltgloss]

Actually, y'know what?

I'm not going to hammer. Tactician results:

Robz888: 3 cards
ashersky: 2 cards
Morgrim7/Volt: 3 cards
jotheonah: 3 cards
Captain_Frisk: 2 cards
Qvist: 1 card
Young Nick: 3 cards

I have received mod-information that ashersky has 3 cards, rather than 2 cards. Sorry about this. Mod will confirm in-thread, or so he told me.

Even if this is true, and YN is now claiming that ash has 3 cards, the only thing that proves is that YN is lying.

If YN were town, that means one other player is scum.
That means one other player would have to have 1 less card than they should have. 
In the original Tactician results YN posted, that player (with 1 too few cards) was ash. 
But now YN is claiming that his Tactician results say that everyone has exactly the number of cards they claim to have. 
This CANNOT be true, because one of us is scum.

So even if YN is telling the truth about the "mod-supplied info," that mod-supplied info renders his claimed results fake.

Bah.  We're done here.

Vote: Young Nick

[Young Nick]

I have received mod-information that ashersky has 3 cards, rather than 2 cards. Sorry about this. Mod will confirm in-thread, or so he told me.

When did you receive this information?

I'm not asking you to break the rules by posting mod-supplied info or timestamps.  I'm just asking for you to say what time you received this mod-information.

Where is your fullclaim?

I woke up this morning and had a PM from him apologizing. He said he will clear this up in-thread when he returns.

[Captain_Frisk]

Actually, y'know what?

I'm not going to hammer. Tactician results:

Robz888: 3 cards
ashersky: 2 cards
Morgrim7/Volt: 3 cards
jotheonah: 3 cards
Captain_Frisk: 2 cards
Qvist: 1 card
Young Nick: 3 cards

I have received mod-information that ashersky has 3 cards, rather than 2 cards. Sorry about this. Mod will confirm in-thread, or so he told me.

Even if this is true, and YN is now claiming that ash has 3 cards, the only thing that proves is that YN is lying.

If YN were town, that means one other player is scum.
That means one other player would have to have 1 less card than they should have. 
In the original Tactician results YN posted, that player (with 1 too few cards) was ash. 
But now YN is claiming that his Tactician results say that everyone has exactly the number of cards they claim to have. 
This CANNOT be true, because one of us is scum.

So even if YN is telling the truth about the "mod-supplied info," that mod-supplied info renders his claimed results fake.

Bah.  We're done here.

Vote: Young Nick

Volt - someone could have lied - ie. someone could have claimed to have been hit by a discard attack who wasn't, or played a card that drew N cards and actually drew N+1 etc.

[Captain_Frisk]

I think he's probably lying, but lets let the mod say something.

[jotheonah]

I am getting such a scum vibe from our IC. Ugh.

[Captain_Frisk]

I am getting such a scum vibe from our IC. Ugh.

+1

[Voltgloss]

I am getting such a scum vibe from our IC. Ugh.

Why??!?

[Voltgloss]

Volt - someone could have lied - ie. someone could have claimed to have been hit by a discard attack who wasn't, or played a card that drew N cards and actually drew N+1 etc.

OK, this is a fair point, if ash is faking that he was "forced to discard" Night 3 then he should have 4 cards now.  OK.  Yes, I missed this, I'm sorry.

Unvote

FYI, the second possibility isn't the case.  I have Market Square and can confirm it draws exactly 2 cards.

[Voltgloss]

I am getting such a scum vibe from our IC. Ugh.

+1

Seriously guys, this really bothers me.  I'm trying my damnedest as IC to puzzle this out, and that gives you a scum vibe?  I mean, what, do I try too hard at this game?  I feel like I'm getting hated on for trying to hard at this game.

[jotheonah]

I am getting such a scum vibe from our IC. Ugh.

+1

Seriously guys, this really bothers me.  I'm trying my damnedest as IC to puzzle this out, and that gives you a scum vibe?  I mean, what, do I try too hard at this game?  I feel like I'm getting hated on for trying to hard at this game.

It seems like you want to rush us into night. And you want to make sure I don't use my vig. It just feels like you are trying to control the town. Plus Qvist's bus driver theory is still floating around. And Morgrim apparently lied about SC, which is a little strange for a townie to do. Although, Morgrim.

[Captain_Frisk]

I am getting such a scum vibe from our IC. Ugh.

+1

Seriously guys, this really bothers me.  I'm trying my damnedest as IC to puzzle this out, and that gives you a scum vibe?  I mean, what, do I try too hard at this game?  I feel like I'm getting hated on for trying to hard at this game.

You just always seem scummy.

[Voltgloss]

It seems like you want to rush us into night.

I'm sorry.  I thought I caught Young Nick in a Catch-22.  As another player once said, "I always get excited when I catch scum."

And you want to make sure I don't use my vig.

I do.  I think you using your vig is counterproductive.  It risks using up a mislynch and is at the mercy of scum redirection.

It just feels like you are trying to control the town.

Because I give thoughts and recommendations and try to support them as strongly as I can?

Plus Qvist's bus driver theory is still floating around.

The theory being that, Qvist's Treasure Maps were bus driven in such a way as to make the mod confirm me as Town when in fact I am Scum?  I mean, yeah, it's a theory, but this isn't a Bastard game.

It's definitely the case though that Qvist's Treasure Maps were bus driven, if Qvist is telling the truth (and I am inclined to think he is).  But the mod-confirmation is correct.

Furthermore, Qvist saw my hand Night 3 and confirms there were 4 cards in it at the time he took one.  If I were scum, I should have only had 3 cards.

And Morgrim apparently lied about SC, which is a little strange for a townie to do. Although, Morgrim.

This I can't dispute.  I have no idea what he was thinking.

[Voltgloss]

I am getting such a scum vibe from our IC. Ugh.

+1

Seriously guys, this really bothers me.  I'm trying my damnedest as IC to puzzle this out, and that gives you a scum vibe?  I mean, what, do I try too hard at this game?  I feel like I'm getting hated on for trying to hard at this game.

You just always seem scummy.

But WHY man, WHY???  Again, because I try too hard?

Dammit, I'm the nega-Robz.  He always gets unwarranted flak for appearing scummy in the early game; I always get unwarranted flak for appearing scummy in the late game. 

[jotheonah]

I am getting such a scum vibe from our IC. Ugh.

+1

Seriously guys, this really bothers me.  I'm trying my damnedest as IC to puzzle this out, and that gives you a scum vibe?  I mean, what, do I try too hard at this game?  I feel like I'm getting hated on for trying to hard at this game.

You just always seem scummy.

But WHY man, WHY???  Again, because I try too hard?

Dammit, I'm the nega-Robz.  He always gets unwarranted flak for appearing scummy in the early game; I always get unwarranted flak for appearing scummy in the late game.

This is quite apt. Anyway, I feel better now. But I've nver gotten to vig anybody before! can't I please?

[Voltgloss]

I was rereading the rules to see about order of card operations, and just saw something horrifying.

      These cards are played in this way:
   1. Each player sends the mod the message "{Card Name}:{Targets (if any)}" or "No card played"
   2. Once everyone has sent the mod this message, the played cards will be carried out in this order:

         1. Play Modifiers (These modify how you play your cards)
         2. Protection (Doctors, Bodyguard etc)
         3. Roleblockers/Redirectors (pretty self-explanatory...)
         4. Investigative (Watcher, Tracker, etc)
         5. Kills (Mafia and/or Vigilante/Serial Killer)
         6. Discarders (Attack other player's hands)
         7. Inspection (Cops, Hand Glancers, etc)

Archetype, can you modconfirm whether or not a Serial Killer could exist in this game?

[Captain_Frisk]

There are 3 Mafia-aligned players in the game (so, 9 Town-aligned players). They'll be given one of the following 1-shot Kill modifiers that may be used if that Mafia player completes the factional kill.

[Voltgloss]

There are 3 Mafia-aligned players in the game (so, 9 Town-aligned players). They'll be given one of the following 1-shot Kill modifiers that may be used if that Mafia player completes the factional kill.

I saw that, and I hope the "9 Town-aligned players" is correct, but then why does Serial Killer appear in the order-of-operations list?

I expect most likely Serial Killer was left in the list as an afterthought.  But I just want to make sure.

[ashersky]

Volt, to answer your question, I discarded Smugglers to the attack.  Mod confirmed previously that cards discarded to attacks don't go to the discard pile.

I can confirm YN's statement about the mod update to his results.  I had a response from Arch to my PM saying that would happen.

I think our course of action should be to lynch one Q and vig YN (if Q is town).  Joth, does that work, or can YN stop that?

[Voltgloss]

I can confirm YN's statement about the mod update to his results.  I had a response from Arch to my PM saying that would happen.

Wait, what?

I'm now really befuddled.  If Arch is really going to modconfirm that YN's reported investigation numbers were wrong due to mod error...

...then, most importantly, that's modconfirming that YN played Tactician. 

I don't know what to think about that. 

[Voltgloss]

As I understand it, YN can veto joth's vig choice, so joth's vig is useless against YN.

[Voltgloss]

I think we need a full claim from Robz.

Also, I would ask that Arch extend the lynch deadline for a half day or so - depending on when he gets here to clear up the mod error issue - because we really can't proceed until he clears this up.

[Captain_Frisk]

I think its reasonable to assume that we aren't lying about having played whatever cards. 

[Voltgloss]

I think its reasonable to assume that we aren't lying about having played whatever cards.

Then where did Forge come from?

[Voltgloss]

joth, can you tell us the exact description for Rats?

[ashersky]

Robz is the missing piece of this puzzle...if he's been lying, his lurking now is scummy.

But he posted in V/LA, so no reason to think that.

[jotheonah]

joth, can you tell us the exact description for Rats?

Am I allowed to quote it?

[ashersky]

joth, can you tell us the exact description for Rats?

Am I allowed to quote it?

I quoted a card before.  I believe mod confirmed its okay in thread.

[jotheonah]

"Rats (Protection*): Target 1 player. Both yours, and the targeted player will have the cards you play say 'Rats' instead of their normal card names when shown in-thread."

[Voltgloss]

Who sat on cayvie's left during drafting?  I sat on her right.  Can we figure out by PoE what card she played on Night 2?  (I realize cardnames are only partially helpful, but it might give us something - and I think solving the mystery of Night 2 is rather important here)

[Voltgloss]

Dammit, yeah, Robz is V/LA, we're probably not going to hear from him before the lynch deadline.

Argh.

[Archetype]

I have received mod-information that ashersky has 3 cards, rather than 2 cards. Sorry about this. Mod will confirm in-thread, or so he told me.

When did you receive this information?

I'm not asking you to break the rules by posting mod-supplied info or timestamps.  I'm just asking for you to say what time you received this mod-information.

Where is your fullclaim?

What Young_Nick said is true. Mod-confirmed error on my part.

[Voltgloss]

Archetype, can you modconfirm whether or not a Serial Killer could exist in this game?

[Archetype]

Archetype, can you modconfirm whether or not a Serial Killer could exist in this game?

There is none. Only alignment is Town and Scum. 9 Town, 3 Scum.

Though now, after looking back over the OP, I see what you mean. I just said 'Serial Killer' as another example.

[Young Nick]

I'm pretty sure he's clarified multiple times that there is no SK in this game. There haven't been the NK's that match up. I bet it was a C&P error. In any event, I think we need to stick to our original plan of

Lynch Ashersky (because his Moat makes him vig-immune)
Vig Qvist (I will clearly not prohibit killing Qvist).

If the game is not yet won, I guess y'all would then lynch me, though it is mylo (assuming scum kill), so we would discuss first.

The day will end soon, so I would like this to happen. A NL would kind of mess this up unnecessarily.

This seems relatively straight-forward at the moment, though I do have some hesitations, especially over the TM ordeal and the possibility of false IC's due to bus-drives/redirects.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm pretty sure he's clarified multiple times that there is no SK in this game. There haven't been the NK's that match up. I bet it was a C&P error. In any event, I think we need to stick to our original plan of

Lynch Ashersky (because his Moat makes him vig-immune)
Vig Qvist (I will clearly not prohibit killing Qvist).

If the game is not yet won, I guess y'all would then lynch me, though it is mylo (assuming scum kill), so we would discuss first.

The day will end soon, so I would like this to happen. A NL would kind of mess this up unnecessarily.

This seems relatively straight-forward at the moment, though I do have some hesitations, especially over the TM ordeal and the possibility of false IC's due to bus-drives/redirects.

Full claim please

[Young Nick]

I'm pretty sure he's clarified multiple times that there is no SK in this game. There haven't been the NK's that match up. I bet it was a C&P error. In any event, I think we need to stick to our original plan of

Lynch Ashersky (because his Moat makes him vig-immune)
Vig Qvist (I will clearly not prohibit killing Qvist).

If the game is not yet won, I guess y'all would then lynch me, though it is mylo (assuming scum kill), so we would discuss first.

The day will end soon, so I would like this to happen. A NL would kind of mess this up unnecessarily.

This seems relatively straight-forward at the moment, though I do have some hesitations, especially over the TM ordeal and the possibility of false IC's due to bus-drives/redirects.

Full claim please

I already did..

[Voltgloss]

Young Nick, just so I'm clear:  you still have Forge in your hand, right?  Nothing forced it out of your hand?

[Voltgloss]

And I think you need to tell us what Forge does.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm pretty sure he's clarified multiple times that there is no SK in this game. There haven't been the NK's that match up. I bet it was a C&P error. In any event, I think we need to stick to our original plan of

Lynch Ashersky (because his Moat makes him vig-immune)
Vig Qvist (I will clearly not prohibit killing Qvist).

If the game is not yet won, I guess y'all would then lynch me, though it is mylo (assuming scum kill), so we would discuss first.

The day will end soon, so I would like this to happen. A NL would kind of mess this up unnecessarily.

This seems relatively straight-forward at the moment, though I do have some hesitations, especially over the TM ordeal and the possibility of false IC's due to bus-drives/redirects.

Full claim please

I already did..

See my template earlier

You can clear qvist with your claim of cards seen

[jotheonah]

Vote: Young Nick

Not sure when I can get back on, so just leaving that there.

[Captain_Frisk]

Nick - if I don't see a full claim by midnight - I am voting you.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 4.2:

ashersky (2) -- Robz888, Qvist,
Qvist (1) -- ashersky
Young Nick (2) -- jotheonah, Voltgloss

Not Voting (2) -- Young Nick, Captain_Frisk

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Day 4 Lynch Deadline is December 14th at 5:30 PM Forum Time.

--

Young Nick and Robz are both LA, so I've extended the deadline by one day.

[Voltgloss]

I thought I unvoted?  Unvote

Using my awesome modpower: Yes, sorry you did.  I seemed to have missed that while skimming through.

[Voltgloss]

Do we know the entire starting seating arrangement?

[Young Nick]

Nick - if I don't see a full claim by midnight - I am voting you.

Fair but I am still V/LA. Yes, more access than most's LA, it is just that I honestly intend on going and studying from now unti I sleep with only 2 breaks (one for dinner and one for am meeting).

Look, I know it sucks, and vote for me if you must, but this is legit. I would love a deadline extension from our mod, but it seems unlikely.

[Archetype]

I would love a deadline extension from our mod, but it seems unlikely.

Young Nick and Robz are both LA, so I've extended the deadline by one day.

[Voltgloss]

Y.Nick, can you at least just quickly tell us what Forge does? 

[Voltgloss]

joth, who was on your right during the drafting process?  I think it has to be either Dsell or pingpongsam?

[Voltgloss]

ash, who was on your right during the drafting process?

[Qvist]

I did also unvote. But I'm afraid I have also do a Vote: Young Nick

That's because of this (he confirms me again an still wants to vig me!?):

I'm pretty sure he's clarified multiple times that there is no SK in this game. There haven't been the NK's that match up. I bet it was a C&P error. In any event, I think we need to stick to our original plan of

Lynch Ashersky (because his Moat makes him vig-immune)
Vig Qvist (I will clearly not prohibit killing Qvist).

If the game is not yet won, I guess y'all would then lynch me, though it is mylo (assuming scum kill), so we would discuss first.

The day will end soon, so I would like this to happen. A NL would kind of mess this up unnecessarily.

This seems relatively straight-forward at the moment, though I do have some hesitations, especially over the TM ordeal and the possibility of false IC's due to bus-drives/redirects.

[Captain_Frisk]

Nick - if I don't see a full claim by midnight - I am voting you.

Fair but I am still V/LA. Yes, more access than most's LA, it is just that I honestly intend on going and studying from now unti I sleep with only 2 breaks (one for dinner and one for am meeting).

Look, I know it sucks, and vote for me if you must, but this is legit. I would love a deadline extension from our mod, but it seems unlikely.

School work and family are all more important than this, but you could have answered what forge does in less time than it took to write this post.

If you are busted, just own up and end it.

[Captain_Frisk]

By not claiming your cards, you are actively preventing us from clearing qvist.

[Voltgloss]

If Young Nick were Town, and played Tactician as he claims, wouldn't he would have commented much earlier on the lack of Tactician in the discard - and Forge being there instead?

[Captain_Frisk]

Probably?  But we do have modfirmation that an error was made, so this is plausible.

We have 7 alive, and 1 scum, right?

We have several people who are clear.  (Morgrim, Me, Joth, RobZ?) 

We have 2 mislynches available.

Seems like this in the bag.

Youngnick can potentially clear qvist.  If he does - then we lynch Asher.

If he keeps refusing, then we lynch YN.

[ashersky]

Probably?  But we do have modfirmation that an error was made, so this is plausible.

We have 7 alive, and 1 scum, right?

We have several people who are clear.  (Morgrim, Me, Joth, RobZ?) 

We have 2 mislynches available.

Seems like this in the bag.

Youngnick can potentially clear qvist.  If he does - then we lynch Asher.

If he keeps refusing, then we lynch YN.

Why do we lynch me, again?  I say again, why would I say all I've said today if I am mafia?  Admit to having Moat...help YN instead of letting mod error kill him...

Clearly we need to see what YN says about Q.

[Captain_Frisk]

Why do we lynch me, again?  I say again, why would I say all I've said today if I am mafia?  Admit to having Moat...help YN instead of letting mod error kill him...

Clearly we need to see what YN says about Q.

Because 4 people are clear, leaving only 3 people left.  Process of elimination.  If YN clears Qvist - then that pretty much just leaves the 2 of you.

[Voltgloss]

To be 100% clear:  YN, what we need from you in order to clear (or not clear) Qvist is a full claim of the cards you received/passed duringthe drafting process.

[Captain_Frisk]

To be 100% clear:  YN, what we need from you in order to clear (or not clear) Qvist is a full claim of the cards you received/passed duringthe drafting process.

And tell us what forge does

[Voltgloss]

Robz, when you get here during your catching-up-on-threads process:  Can you verify what sets of cards you passed to ash during drafting?

[Robz888]

Starting Hand: Market Square, Cartographer, Navigator, Scout Scrying Pool

I took Scout

Hand 2: Adventurer, Apprentice, Menagerie, Bishop

I took Adventurer

Hand 3: Embargo, Militia, Lookout

I took Militia

So, I can't find any PM from Archetype where I took Bishop or another Scout, but my final hand was: 2 Scouts, Adventurer, Militia, and Bishop. I have played 1 Scout and 1 Bishop so far.

What else do you need to know?

[Captain_Frisk]

Starting Hand: Market Square, Cartographer, Navigator, Scout Scrying Pool

I took Scout

Hand 2: Adventurer, Apprentice, Menagerie, Bishop

I took Adventurer

Hand 3: Embargo, Militia, Lookout

I took Militia

So, I can't find any PM from Archetype where I took Bishop or another Scout, but my final hand was: 2 Scouts, Adventurer, Militia, and Bishop. I have played 1 Scout and 1 Bishop so far.

What else do you need to know?

Warning - I know that RobZ is IC and all - but previously he said he was not forced to take scout.

[Captain_Frisk]

Why didn't you play a card last night?

[Voltgloss]

Warning - I know that RobZ is IC and all - but previously he said he was not forced to take scout.

He wasn't.  Galz's previous fullclaim establishes that Robz received his second Scout as part of his next-to-last draft hand.  The card Robz was forced to take was Bishop.

[Robz888]

Why didn't you play a card last night?

I forgot.

[Voltgloss]

Robz, why did you choose to Bishop joth on Night 2, and not Eevee, who was seeking doctor protection so his upcoming Throne Room'd turn could go through?

[Robz888]

Robz, why did you choose to Bishop joth on Night 2, and not Eevee, who was seeking doctor protection so his upcoming Throne Room'd turn could go through?

Because Jo I thought was definitely town, not Eevee.

[Captain_Frisk]

Robz, why did you choose to Bishop joth on Night 2, and not Eevee, who was seeking doctor protection so his upcoming Throne Room'd turn could go through?

Because Jo I thought was definitely town, not Eevee.

I actually chose to native village RobZ instead of joth for the same reason that RobZ doctored him.... i thought that joth would be killed as conf.town

[Voltgloss]

Query:  Do we accept as proven Qvist's claim that he had both Outpost and Navigator in his hand, and played them both Turn 1?

(The "Qvist might be scum" theory seems to hinge on the idea "he might have had just 1 Treasure Map in hand, not two" - is that correct?)

[Voltgloss]

Related question:  Frisk, what cards did you pass from your FIRST drafting hand?  (You don't have to claim the card you kept)

[Captain_Frisk]

1. Forge
2. Scheme
3. Sage
4. Outpost
5. Governor

[Captain_Frisk]

Oops - I just outted the card thats in my hand.... well i was going to full claim it anyway after YN gets his act together.

[Captain_Frisk]

I drafted the card that is obviously OP.... turns out that it isn't!

[jotheonah]

Query:  Do we accept as proven Qvist's claim that he had both Outpost and Navigator in his hand, and played them both Turn 1?

(The "Qvist might be scum" theory seems to hinge on the idea "he might have had just 1 Treasure Map in hand, not two" - is that correct?)

The theory was a lot neater if Qvist only had one Treasure Map. It would better explain how he seemed to have 5 cards as scum.

But the damning thing about Qvist, IMO, is that Dsell warned his team not to go through with "the Treasure Map plan."  Even if that was a troll, how did Dsell know there were Treasure Maps in this game at all and that they would be played? Knowing that Treasure Map is a card that creates an IC, and speculating that it can't be used on scum, what possible "treasure map plan" could a scum team have besides what Qvist did - clearing someone else, claiming bus-driving, and trying to get the town to believe the IC was scum? It all fits so neatly.

[Voltgloss]

Thanks Frisk.

ash:  Can you please quote the exact description for Tactician?
Young Nick:  After ash quotes the description for Tactician, could you please confirm whether it is correct?

[ashersky]

Thanks Frisk.

ash:  Can you please quote the exact description for Tactician?
Young Nick:  After ash quotes the description for Tactician, could you please confirm whether it is correct?

Here you go:

Tactician (Inspection): You'll be told how many cards each other player has in their hand.

[Voltgloss]

Y'know what would be hilarious?  If the mystery card cayvie played on Night 2, under her Rats, was a Treasure Map.

[Captain_Frisk]

Thanks Frisk.

ash:  Can you please quote the exact description for Tactician?
Young Nick:  After ash quotes the description for Tactician, could you please confirm whether it is correct?

Here you go:

Tactician (Inspection): You'll be told how many cards each other player has in their hand.

Well shit - if that had been played day 1 the game would be over.

[Voltgloss]

Thanks ash.

While you are here, can you confirm which cards you passed out of the first "draft hand?"  And to whom you passed them?  (I think you had pps on your right, but would like to make sure.)

[ashersky]

Thanks Frisk.

ash:  Can you please quote the exact description for Tactician?
Young Nick:  After ash quotes the description for Tactician, could you please confirm whether it is correct?

Here you go:

Tactician (Inspection): You'll be told how many cards each other player has in their hand.

Well shit - if that had been played day 1 the game would be over.

Pretty sure it counts after cards are played, attacks happen, etc., to keep that from happening.

[Captain_Frisk]

Thanks Frisk.

ash:  Can you please quote the exact description for Tactician?
Young Nick:  After ash quotes the description for Tactician, could you please confirm whether it is correct?

Here you go:

Tactician (Inspection): You'll be told how many cards each other player has in their hand.

Well shit - if that had been played day 1 the game would be over.

Pretty sure it counts after cards are played, attacks happen, etc., to keep that from happening.

Why didn't you play it?

[Voltgloss]

Query:  Do we accept as proven Qvist's claim that he had both Outpost and Navigator in his hand, and played them both Turn 1?

(The "Qvist might be scum" theory seems to hinge on the idea "he might have had just 1 Treasure Map in hand, not two" - is that correct?)

The theory was a lot neater if Qvist only had one Treasure Map. It would better explain how he seemed to have 5 cards as scum.

But the damning thing about Qvist, IMO, is that Dsell warned his team not to go through with "the Treasure Map plan."  Even if that was a troll, how did Dsell know there were Treasure Maps in this game at all and that they would be played? Knowing that Treasure Map is a card that creates an IC, and speculating that it can't be used on scum, what possible "treasure map plan" could a scum team have besides what Qvist did - clearing someone else, claiming bus-driving, and trying to get the town to believe the IC was scum? It all fits so neatly.

I hear you, joth.

The thing is:  based on the data, I think the only card that Qvist could possibly be "faking" isn't one of his Treasure Maps.  I think the only card he could have been "faking" would be his Navigator.  By which I mean:  the Navigator is what Qvist must have selected from his first-round-draft pick (assuming he is town).

[Captain_Frisk]

Query:  Do we accept as proven Qvist's claim that he had both Outpost and Navigator in his hand, and played them both Turn 1?

(The "Qvist might be scum" theory seems to hinge on the idea "he might have had just 1 Treasure Map in hand, not two" - is that correct?)

The theory was a lot neater if Qvist only had one Treasure Map. It would better explain how he seemed to have 5 cards as scum.

But the damning thing about Qvist, IMO, is that Dsell warned his team not to go through with "the Treasure Map plan."  Even if that was a troll, how did Dsell know there were Treasure Maps in this game at all and that they would be played? Knowing that Treasure Map is a card that creates an IC, and speculating that it can't be used on scum, what possible "treasure map plan" could a scum team have besides what Qvist did - clearing someone else, claiming bus-driving, and trying to get the town to believe the IC was scum? It all fits so neatly.

I hear you, joth.

The thing is:  based on the data, I think the only card that Qvist could possibly be "faking" isn't one of his Treasure Maps.  I think the only card he could have been "faking" would be his Navigator.  By which I mean:  the Navigator is what Qvist must have selected from his first-round-draft pick (assuming he is town).

I can confirm this is true.  He definitely had a chance at both treasure maps.  Young nick will be able to confirm whether or not qvist actually drafted both.

[Captain_Frisk]

And he was online at 3.  How long does it take to dump out a few lists?

[Captain_Frisk]

Angry because I could have won twice yesterday.

[ashersky]

Thanks Frisk.

ash:  Can you please quote the exact description for Tactician?
Young Nick:  After ash quotes the description for Tactician, could you please confirm whether it is correct?

Here you go:

Tactician (Inspection): You'll be told how many cards each other player has in their hand.

Well shit - if that had been played day 1 the game would be over.

Pretty sure it counts after cards are played, attacks happen, etc., to keep that from happening.

Why didn't you play it?

Because I wanted to protect Galz from the NK more, to get his info.  So I bishop'ed him.

[Voltgloss]

And he was online at 3.  How long does it take to dump out a few lists?

Or give the one-line description of Forge

[Voltgloss]

ash, I think what Frisk meant is "why didn't you play it Night 1."

[ashersky]

ash, I think what Frisk meant is "why didn't you play it Night 1."

Because I got it on N2 from Dsell when I used Market Square on his lynched body.

[jotheonah]

Wait ash has a tactician too?

There was a card that could have instantly outed all the scum, two people had it, and no one thought to play it night 1?

[ashersky]

Wait ash has a tactician too?

There was a card that could have instantly outed all the scum, two people had it, and no one thought to play it night 1?

Wait ash has a tactician too?

There was a card that could have instantly outed all the scum, two people had it, and no one thought to play it night 1?

[ashersky]

Messed up quote...

Wait ash has a tactician too?

There was a card that could have instantly outed all the scum, two people had it, and no one thought to play it night 1?

ash, I think what Frisk meant is "why didn't you play it Night 1."

Because I got it on N2 from Dsell when I used Market Square on his lynched body.

[Voltgloss]

ash, I think what Frisk meant is "why didn't you play it Night 1."

Because I got it on N2 from Dsell when I used Market Square on his lynched body.

My bad, I'd forgotten that. 

And I said it before, but I'll repeat:  I can confirm that Market Square does exactly what ash has claimed it does.

[Voltgloss]

Kinda hilarious that if YN is Scum, then both copies of Tactician ended up in the hands of Scum after the drafting process was complete.

[ashersky]

Kinda hilarious that if YN is Scum, then both copies of Tactician ended up in the hands of Scum after the drafting process was complete.

Agreed.  Easy to see why Dsell didn't play it on N1.  Does it give YN any towncred for playing it?

He has also said many times it's finals week for him, right?

I still prefer the Qvist lynch.

[Voltgloss]

Kinda hilarious that if YN is Scum, then both copies of Tactician ended up in the hands of Scum after the drafting process was complete.

Agreed.  Easy to see why Dsell didn't play it on N1.  Does it give YN any towncred for playing it?

I think it takes away towncred that YN was sitting on Tactician since the beginning of the game and only just now played it.

[ashersky]

Kinda hilarious that if YN is Scum, then both copies of Tactician ended up in the hands of Scum after the drafting process was complete.

Agreed.  Easy to see why Dsell didn't play it on N1.  Does it give YN any towncred for playing it?

I think it takes away towncred that YN was sitting on Tactician since the beginning of the game and only just now played it.

True.  Like, it would have been a better pro-town choice than Wishing Well for his N1 action.

[Captain_Frisk]

He has also said many times it's finals week for him, right?

Yes, and i'm giving him a pass - because I absolutely hit the website a few times out of finger muscle memory while I was away last week... he might have hit it on his phone between classes or something.

But the full claim will resolve everything.

[Voltgloss]

joth, when Dsell played Masquerade on you during Night 1 and made you "pass" him a card from your hand, did he "pass" you a card from his hand?  Did he select which card was "passed" out of your hand, or did you?

[Voltgloss]

(I'm not asking you to claim what card he passed you, if any)

[Voltgloss]

Frisk, joth:  if I can prove from the data we've gathered so far that Qvist had to have drafted both Treasure Maps, should I demonstrate it?  Or should we still wait for Young Nick?

[jotheonah]

joth, when Dsell played Masquerade on you during Night 1 and made you "pass" him a card from your hand, did he "pass" you a card from his hand?  Did he select which card was "passed" out of your hand, or did you?

He passed me a card. I can't say whether the card I passed him was his choice or whether it was random, but I can say definitively that I did not get to choose it.

[Captain_Frisk]

Frisk, joth:  if I can prove from the data we've gathered so far that Qvist had to have drafted both Treasure Maps, should I demonstrate it?  Or should we still wait for Young Nick?

I'm pretty sure that Qvist did in fact draft both treasure maps. Lying about it is impossible, because you can be called out on your BS immediately.

I'm pretty sure that YN is scum, but if he wants to keep pretending like he isn't, I'll humor him.

[Captain_Frisk]

Frisk, joth:  if I can prove from the data we've gathered so far that Qvist had to have drafted both Treasure Maps, should I demonstrate it?  Or should we still wait for Young Nick?

I'm pretty sure that Qvist did in fact draft both treasure maps. Lying about it is impossible, because you can be called out on your BS immediately.

I'm pretty sure that YN is scum, but if he wants to keep pretending like he isn't, I'll humor him.

Mainly because I think Voltgloss is scum

[Voltgloss]

Mainly because I think Voltgloss is scum

[Captain_Frisk]

Mainly because I think Voltgloss is scum

Maybe you should read before you sub in.

Once again you lurked through most of the game.  You've also admitted to lying.  If there was any chance that this was bastard mod, I'd vote you in a heartbeat!

[Captain_Frisk]

But really, I'm just always coming up with crazy conspiracy theories.  The answer is that DSell didn't play tactician because it's obvbad for scum.  Ditto for YN.

[Voltgloss]

Frisk, joth:  if I can prove from the data we've gathered so far that Qvist had to have drafted both Treasure Maps, should I demonstrate it?  Or should we still wait for Young Nick?

I'm pretty sure that Qvist did in fact draft both treasure maps. Lying about it is impossible, because you can be called out on your BS immediately.

Yeah.  As long as scum aren't sitting next to each other (which thankfully didn't happen here), the only way they can lie about the drafting process is to claim some imaginary card was their "first draft" pick, when in fact that was their scumpromo.  Like Dsell's imaginary Philosopher's Stone.

Of Qvist's claimed hand, the Outpost, Masquerade, and both Treasure Maps went through town players (me and/or Frisk).  So we know they exist and reached Qvist during drafting.  The only "imaginary" card he could claim would be his Navigator.  But Navigator was played.  And no one else saw a copy of Navigator during anywhere else in the drafting process.  So because Navigator did exist, and the only time it could have been drafted was Qvist's first-round pick, that must have been his first-round pick.

This, to me, writes Qvist off the list of scumspects.  "Treasure Map" comment of Dsell's notwithstanding.  (Incidentally, scum knew at least one Treasure Map existed because it was drafted through cayvie.)

That leaves ash and Young Nick, and Young Nick is vastly scummier, so I think he's the right lynch today with ash tomorrow if needed. 

[Voltgloss]

But really, I'm just always coming up with crazy conspiracy theories.  The answer is that DSell didn't play tactician because it's obvbad for scum.  Ditto for YN.

Yup.  Ockham's Razor.  It worked for you in M-XV, and I think it works for us here.

I'm thinking of voting.  Gonna go check the count.

[Qvist]

But really, I'm just always coming up with crazy conspiracy theories.  The answer is that DSell didn't play tactician because it's obvbad for scum.  Ditto for YN.

I mean YN is at L1. As most of you now see that I was in fact not lying, I suggest that somebody hammers him. joth should probably use his vig tonight, maybe Voltgloss.

[Voltgloss]

I mean YN is at L1. As most of you now see that I was in fact not lying, I suggest that somebody hammers him. joth should probably use his vig tonight, maybe Voltgloss.

I've made my position clear as to why I think joth should not vig.  Ultimately his call though.

[Voltgloss]

I think YN is at L-2.  Qvist and joth's votes.  Mod, can we get a current votecount please?

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm sure you answered this elsewhere - but what did "you" do on N2 Volt?

[Captain_Frisk]

Joth should not vig.

[Voltgloss]

I'm sure you answered this elsewhere - but what did "you" do on N2 Volt?

Absolutely nothing.  THAT'S OUR MORGRIM~!

[Captain_Frisk]

We have 7 alive now.  Thats 2 mislynches.

If we vig wrong... then we're down to 4 people alive.  We should still win, but I'd rather have 2 nights to use powers than only 1.

[Captain_Frisk]

Did qvist detail what the treasure maps did?   LIke actually quote ?

[Voltgloss]

Potential gamebreaking strategy on Day 2:  All players play their "first-round draft pick" card on Night 1, and then fullclaim their drafting decisions on Day 2. 

[Voltgloss]

Did qvist detail what the treasure maps did?   LIke actually quote ?

I don't recall him giving an exact quote.  Qvist, could you oblige us?

[Qvist]

I mean YN is at L1. As most of you now see that I was in fact not lying, I suggest that somebody hammers him. joth should probably use his vig tonight, maybe Voltgloss.

I've made my position clear as to why I think joth should not vig.  Ultimately his call though.

Sorry, I might have forgotten this. Can you quote what you are refering to?

[Captain_Frisk]

Potential gamebreaking strategy on Day 2:  All players play their "first-round draft pick" card on Night 1, and then fullclaim their drafting decisions on Day 2.

I think full claiming on day 1 would have done it.

[Captain_Frisk]

Qvist - give us the exact text on treasure map please.

[Qvist]

Did qvist detail what the treasure maps did?   LIke actually quote ?

I don't recall him giving an exact quote.  Qvist, could you oblige us?

Treasure Map (Protection*) Play an additional Treasure Map from your hand. You'll be confirmed an Innocent Child by me.

[Voltgloss]

I mean YN is at L1. As most of you now see that I was in fact not lying, I suggest that somebody hammers him. joth should probably use his vig tonight, maybe Voltgloss.

I've made my position clear as to why I think joth should not vig.  Ultimately his call though.

Sorry, I might have forgotten this. Can you quote what you are refering to?

Frisk just restated it.  With 7 alive, we can afford 2 mislynches.  joth vigging drops us down to being able to afford only 1 mislynch if his vig hits town.  (And scum could be sitting on a redirect power that could manipulate joth's vig.)

[Qvist]

Now who thinks a redirect on Morgrim/Voltgloss would even as scum be cleared as IC?

[Qvist]

I mean YN is at L1. As most of you now see that I was in fact not lying, I suggest that somebody hammers him. joth should probably use his vig tonight, maybe Voltgloss.

I've made my position clear as to why I think joth should not vig.  Ultimately his call though.

Sorry, I might have forgotten this. Can you quote what you are refering to?

Frisk just restated it.  With 7 alive, we can afford 2 mislynches.  joth vigging drops us down to being able to afford only 1 mislynch if his vig hits town.  (And scum could be sitting on a redirect power that could manipulate joth's vig.)

Yeah I just saw that. Makes sense.

[Captain_Frisk]

So this game continues too, oh man.
Can someone tell me why someone would opt to not play a card? This only helps us, right?
Scum on the other way has a reason to not play a card, especially after Dsell was framed this way.

Qvist - why was this your opening post on Day 3?  Why not any mention of your treasure maps and being redirected?

[Qvist]

AFAIR I contacted Archetype regarding clarification to this matter. Wait, let's check. It's awhile ago.

[Qvist]

Yeah. I was confused. I thought first Morgrim had played 2 Treasure Maps too, but forgot to include mine. But that wasn't the case. I got an answer from Archetype about 40 minutes later. Then I was really confused. I was not sure if I just should point that out or if this would be bad for us. That's why I waited and then stated we should claim because I have to say something. No answer from all of you before the lynch came.

[Voltgloss]

We only have Young Nick's word for it that his Night 1 Wishing Well did what he said it did, correct?

[Voltgloss]

Yeah. I was confused. I thought first Morgrim had played 2 Treasure Maps too, but forgot to include mine. But that wasn't the case. I got an answer from Archetype about 40 minutes later. Then I was really confused. I was not sure if I just should point that out or if this would be bad for us. That's why I waited and then stated we should claim because I have to say something. No answer from all of you before the lynch came.

cayvie did cut Day 3 short by self-hammering as scum.

[Qvist]

We only have Young Nick's word for it that his Night 1 Wishing Well did what he said it did, correct?

I can confirm that he has a Wishing Well, but I don't know what it does, yeah.

[ashersky]

I may be out of the office for awhile, now, and want to be sure I help here. 

Vote: YoungNick to put him at L-1. 

If it ain't him, it's Qvist.


PPE--I confirmed that what he said it did matched the text I received via SP for the card he played.

[Qvist]

Yeah. I was confused. I thought first Morgrim had played 2 Treasure Maps too, but forgot to include mine. But that wasn't the case. I got an answer from Archetype about 40 minutes later. Then I was really confused. I was not sure if I just should point that out or if this would be bad for us. That's why I waited and then stated we should claim because I have to say something. No answer from all of you before the lynch came.

cayvie did cut Day 3 short by self-hammering as scum.

Yeah, I know. I was just explaining again why I didn't mention my TMs on that day.

[jotheonah]

25 new replies wtf

[Captain_Frisk]

25 new replies wtf

Thank you for this contribution to our scumhunting.

[Qvist]

CF, I think you should hammer.

[Captain_Frisk]

It's only polite to hear him out.

[Qvist]

He's online. He had plenty of opportunity.

[Qvist]

And any suggestions on whom I should use my discard attack tonight, just in case.

[Captain_Frisk]

I wouldn't.

[ashersky]

Should I roleblock or investigate?  Assuming you aren't vigging me, that is.

[Captain_Frisk]

Should I roleblock or investigate?  Assuming you aren't vigging me, that is.

Well, if YN is town, then its either

1. You
2. Qvist
3. Bastard Mod

[jotheonah]

ash, I promise not to vig you.

Q seems SO. SCUMMY. to me.

But I can't vig him anyway.

So I'll probably just. redacted

[Captain_Frisk]

If Qvist has a discard attack, then I'd say roleblock him.

[Voltgloss]

Should I roleblock or investigate?  Assuming you aren't vigging me, that is.

ash, if you're Town, then I think you should play whichever card was your first round draft pick, to prove its existence.

[Voltgloss]

Shall I just say what Qvist's card does?  (since he got it from me)

[Captain_Frisk]

ash, I promise not to vig you.

Q seems SO. SCUMMY. to me.

But I can't vig him anyway.

So I'll probably just. redacted

I'm with you joth.  But it all adds up... unless someone else played navigator.... and he wasn't counter claimed.

[Qvist]

I wouldn't.

Why? I already claimed that I have discard attack. If I don't use it tonight, I proabably get killed.

[jotheonah]

25 new replies wtf

Thank you for this contribution to our scumhunting.

I was going to post something else, but then 25 and I thought "This may not still be relevant" so I just posted that and went back to reread.

[Captain_Frisk]

I wouldn't.

Why? I already claimed that I have discard attack. If I don't use it tonight, I proabably get killed.

Who would you use it on?  It's either you or asher.

[Voltgloss]

joth, if you roleblock someone, what happens to the card they tried to play?  Does it show up in the discard like normal?

[ashersky]

Should I roleblock or investigate?  Assuming you aren't vigging me, that is.

ash, if you're Town, then I think you should play whichever card was your first round draft pick, to prove its existence.

You mean Scrying Pool?  I already played it.

I can Embargo Qvist tonight, so he can't do anything.

[jotheonah]

it gets returned to their hand.

[ashersky]

joth, if you roleblock someone, what happens to the card they tried to play?  Does it show up in the discard like normal?

On mine, returned to their hand.

[jotheonah]

joth, if you roleblock someone, what happens to the card they tried to play?  Does it show up in the discard like normal?

On mine, returned to their hand.

same card, actually.

[Qvist]

I will probably use it ashersky. Or wait, he has Moat. Hey we can find out if this is true if I play it on him, right?

[Voltgloss]

Should I roleblock or investigate?  Assuming you aren't vigging me, that is.

ash, if you're Town, then I think you should play whichever card was your first round draft pick, to prove its existence.

You mean Scrying Pool?  I already played it.

EVERYBODY STOP

[Voltgloss]

ash, please fullclaim right now your entire sequence of draft picks and the cards you passed along.

[Captain_Frisk]

EVERYBODY STOP

Collaborate and listen?

[jotheonah]

Unvote.

just in case.

so VOlt can do his thing.

[Qvist]

Unvote. Silence...

[Captain_Frisk]

tick toc

[Archetype]

Vote Count 4.3:

ashersky (2) -- Robz888, Qvist
Young Nick (1) -- ashersky

Not Voting (2) -- Young Nick, Captain_Frisk, jotheonah, Qvist

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Day 4 Lynch Deadline is December 14th at 5:30 PM Forum Time.

[Young Nick]

tick toc

Here. Should not be posting. I will full-claim, but this takes time. Only one more exam to go!

Look. I have evidence that redirection exists in this game. I have said many a time that we should consider the possibility of its existence. No one has seemed to care. However I can confirm that it does exist. For this reason, I want us to be very careful.

[Voltgloss]

YN, please tell us what Forge does, please please please. 

[ashersky]

ash, please fullclaim right now your entire sequence of draft picks and the cards you passed along.

Like I said, I don't have all my PMs anymore.  But here's what I have:

Starting hand:

1. Native Village
2. Moat
3. Rats
4. Steward
5. Secret Chamber

So I took Moat, not SP.

Final hand was:

Bishop, Moat, Scrying Pool, Embargo, Market Square.  Market Square was the one I didn't choose.

I will search sent messages in a bit, but gotta run IRL.

unvote

[Young Nick]

Unvote. Silence...

Qvist, can you tell me again what exactly TM does. Like exactly.

[Voltgloss]

Unvote. Silence...

Qvist, can you tell me again what exactly TM does. Like exactly.

FORGE

[Voltgloss]

Did qvist detail what the treasure maps did?   LIke actually quote ?

I don't recall him giving an exact quote.  Qvist, could you oblige us?

Treasure Map (Protection*) Play an additional Treasure Map from your hand. You'll be confirmed an Innocent Child by me.

[Captain_Frisk]

Unvote. Silence...

Qvist, can you tell me again what exactly TM does. Like exactly.

FORGE

FORGE!!!

[Voltgloss]

YN, fair warning:  if you log off again without telling us what Forge does, I predict you are going to get lynched before you come back.

[Captain_Frisk]

YN, fair warning:  if you log off again without telling us what Forge does, I predict you are going to get lynched before you come back.

And asher can't find his PMs are you crazy?

[Young Nick]

Unvote. Silence...

Qvist, can you tell me again what exactly TM does. Like exactly.

FORGE

FORGE!!!

Target 1 player. You'll be told the name of the card they played. Choose who they target.

[Captain_Frisk]

YN - claiming the cards you had access to does NOT take time.

Just go back to the first pm... and drop the card lists down.

It only takes time if you are scum and need to invent shit.

[Qvist]

Like I said, I don't have all my PMs anymore.

Wait. Where did he say that?

[Voltgloss]

So I took Moat, not SP.

Much better.

Tonight, you should play Moat, to confirm its existence.

[Qvist]

Oh man, really. If the last scum isn't either ashersky or Young Nick, I'm going to quit playing Mafia.
We should really lynch ashersky and vig Young Nick.

[Voltgloss]

YN, fair warning:  if you log off again without telling us what Forge does, I predict you are going to get lynched before you come back.

And asher can't find his PMs are you crazy?

Crazy like a fox!  It finally got YNick to claim what Forge does, and for that I'll never apologize.

Now we have to think about what this means.

[Young Nick]

Why I want to be careful: Cayvie's cards showed up as Rats. I forget what she claimed to have played D2, but she could have played Forge (doubtful because I have one and because there is one already played) or something similar. If this is the case, Qvist's TM's are not valid.

[Young Nick]

Y'all need to calm down. I am literally making about a post a minute and all I hear is "draft-claim faster, you fool!"

[Captain_Frisk]

Oh man, really. If the last scum isn't either ashersky or Young Nick, I'm going to quit playing Mafia.
We should really lynch ashersky and vig Young Nick.

Holy crap are you scummy.

NO VIGGING.

[Qvist]

Ok, Vote: Young Nick
He redirected my TMs.

[Voltgloss]

It is extremely possible that cayvie's mystery card play on Night 2 was Forge.

The only person who could have confirmed what that card was is the person who passed it to cayvie.  That person is pingpongsam.  This could be why scum killed pingpongsam on Night 1; so he couldn't spill that knowledge.

[Captain_Frisk]

Who played the discard attack last night?

[Voltgloss]

Who played the discard attack last night?

Another excellent question!

[Archetype]

Vote Count 4.4:

ashersky (1) -- Robz888,
Young Nick (2) -- ashersky, Qvist

Not Voting (3) -- Young Nick, Captain_Frisk, jotheonah, Voltgloss

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Day 4 Lynch Deadline is December 14th at 5:30 PM Forum Time.

[Captain_Frisk]

Who played the discard attack last night?

Another excellent question!

It seems like everyone is lying!

[Captain_Frisk]

Like - I can't believe there's only 1 scum remaining!

[Qvist]

Wow, I have a double vote, nice

*fixed

[Voltgloss]

Arch, what's with the 2 Qvists and 0 me in the votecount?  Also, I think I'm still unvoted.  Unvote.

[/b]*fixed again. Was in a rush.

[Young Nick]

Ok, Vote: Young Nick
He redirected my TMs.

I most certainly did not redirect your TMs. My money is on cayvie redirecting for scumbuddy Morgrim/Volt.

[Young Nick]

I never saw a TM in the drafting process.

[Qvist]

I never saw a TM in the drafting process.

Yeah, you are right of me. They came from the left side.

[Captain_Frisk]

All right YN... lets say that someone played forge on the TMs

Explain why there is a forge in the discard right now, and no tactician?

[Captain_Frisk]

I never saw a TM in the drafting process.

Are you going to claim what cards you saw and drafted so we can get on with the rest of the full claiming?

[Voltgloss]

Cayvie claimed her starting hand was:  Alchemy, Intrigue, Cornucopia, Dark Ages, Dark Ages.

Obviously one card was a fake for her promo.  But she also lied about another card.  The drafting process confirms that another card, from Seaside, wound up in cayvie's starting hand. 

That card is Navigator.

[Voltgloss]

Or she somehow got Navigator in her hand over the course of the game, while losing another (extra) card.

[Young Nick]

I never saw a TM in the drafting process.

Are you going to claim what cards you saw and drafted so we can get on with the rest of the full claiming?

Still not studying, now because I have DS2012 with Eevee. Sorry.

I have no idea where the Tactician is. I have information. Mod-corrected. That should confirm mod gave me incorrect information, which could only happen if I played Tactician.

[Captain_Frisk]

I never saw a TM in the drafting process.

Are you going to claim what cards you saw and drafted so we can get on with the rest of the full claiming?

Still not studying, now because I have DS2012 with Eevee. Sorry.

I have no idea where the Tactician is. I have information. Mod-corrected. That should confirm mod gave me incorrect information, which could only happen if I played Tactician.

Not good enough.  Just go find the 4 PMs and dump out the lists.  30 seconds.

[Captain_Frisk]

Eevee will spot you a few seconds.

[Voltgloss]

We know that, whatever Young Nick did last night, it involved him learning the number of cards in ash's hand.  This much is mod-confirmed.

That doesn't confirm Young Nick played Tactician, though.  If he's lying about what Forge does, it could say something like: "Target 2 people, look at their hand, and they must each discard 1 card of their choice."  Which he could have used on Frisk and ash.

Then Young Nick faked Tactician results on everyone else, based on the data everyone else shared about their current hand states up until the (belated) time he claimed his results.

This feels plausible to me.

[Captain_Frisk]

Question for you. 

If you were someone playing forge on a treasure map play... why would you redirect the results to morgrim?

[Captain_Frisk]

How much time do we have?

[Archetype]

Roughly 23 hours.

[Captain_Frisk]

Roughly 23 hours.

Archetype - are you willing to confirm that this is not bastard mafia?  Ie - if you announce an innocent child, they are actually in fact town?

[Archetype]

Roughly 23 hours.

Archetype - are you willing to confirm that this is not bastard mafia?  Ie - if you announce an innocent child, they are actually in fact town?

All I can say is: This is not a Bastard game.

[Voltgloss]

To 5:30 p.m. tomorrow, I think.

Question for you. 

If you were someone playing forge on a treasure map play... why would you redirect the results to morgrim?

This is a good question. 

First, I assume that scum couldn't redirect the Maps onto one of their own to make them false-declared as an Innocent Child.  Because that's of course the obvious choice.  And yes, I know that's the theory Young Nick is now espousing. 

So the only option for Forging scum is to allow some town player to be declared IC.  Well.  Who's the least helpful town player among the group, and so least equipped to leverage the IC role effectively?  AND, who's one of the most difficult to get lynched, without appearing scummy yourself when he flips town (and so the least "loss" to scum by being declared an IC)? 

Morgrim is the answer to both of those questions.

[Voltgloss]

I'm going to be away from a computer for a bit coming up shortly, so in order not to hold things up, I'm fullclaiming now.

Original player to my left: cayvie
Original player to my right: Captain_Frisk

Initial Draft
1. Lookout, Smugglers, Tactician, Treasure Map, Watchtower -> Selected Smugglers
2. Secret Chamber, Spy, Treasure Map, Wishing Well -> Selected Secret Chamber
3. Grave Robber, Masquerade, Pillage -> Selected Pillage
4. Native Village, Steward -> Selected Steward
5. Market Square

Thus - my initial hand was:
Smugglers, Secret Chamber, Pillage, Steward, Market Square

Night 1, I played Secret Chamber.
- It made my hand appear to be "0" to any hand inspectors/discard attacks.
- This explains Frisk's result from trying to play Spy on me.

Night 2, I played nothing.

Night 3, I played nothing.
- I was required to "pass" Pillage to another player.  Qvist claims this is because he played Masquerade on me.

Current player on my left: ashersky
Current player on my right: Captain_Frisk
Current hand: Smugglers, Steward, Market Square

[Voltgloss]

I can independently prove by town alignment via my first draft pick, Smugglers.  Here is its description:

Smugglers (Playmodifier): Copy the effect of the card the player to your right played, playing it in it's appropriate phase.

Both joth and ash can confirm this is correct.  And if people want, I can play it tonight to prove it's in my hand.

[Voltgloss]

*prove by = prove my

[Voltgloss]

And Qvist also saw I have 4 cards still in hand from his Masquerade play.

[Captain_Frisk]

I can confirm everything from Volt except for his smugglers

Original player to my left: Morgrim / Volt
Original player to my right: QVist

Initial Draft
1. Forge, Scheme, Sage, Outpost, Governor -> Selected Governor
2. Treasure Map, Tactician, Watchtower, Lookout -> Selected Watchtower for hopeful interaction with
3. Treasure Map, Wishig Well, Spy -> Selected Spy.  Note that the spelling there was actually Archetype's
4. Masquerade, Graverobber -> Selected Graverobber because it sounds cool
5. Native Village

Thus - my initial hand was:
GraveRobber, Spy, Governor, Watchtower, Native Village

Night 1, I played Spy.
- I attempted to look at Morgrim and RobZ's hands
- I saw nothing in morgrim
- I saw RobZ's hand.  I thought I had him busted because having 2 scouts is stupid.

Night 2, I played native village.  It gave me daychat with RobZ, which was not used to great effect due to short day and VLA.  I still have it, but RobZ hasn't been very talkative.  I'm told that it goes away at end of day.

Night 3, I played nothing. (VLA)
- I was required to discard a card.  The mod chose watchtower for me.  It would have let me see who targeted me at night.  I figured this was pretty damn useless, so I didn't contest it.

Current player on my left: VoltGloss
Current player on my right: Qvist
Current hand: Graverobber, Governor

Volt, I believe we are officially in business regarding your smuggling, of course this assumes that we don't successfully lynch scum today, which I'm very confident we will do.

Once everyone else has claimed, I'll talk with Volt about how to proceed.

[Captain_Frisk]

Everyone just get out there and claim asap... lets get this done with.

[Voltgloss]

Volt, I believe we are officially in business regarding your smuggling, of course this assumes that we don't successfully lynch scum today, which I'm very confident we will do.

Sounds good.

[jotheonah]

Confirm smugglers does what volt says. I had a copy until Dsell stole it with masq.

[Qvist]

I can confirm Volt's hand.

But what I don't understand why town would play Secret Chamber as first card. Volt can't obviously answer this, but knowing the hand size is exactly what clears somebody as town.

[Captain_Frisk]

I can confirm Volt's hand.

But what I don't understand why town would play Secret Chamber as first card. Volt can't obviously answer this, but knowing the hand size is exactly what clears somebody as town.

Morgrim is your answer

[Captain_Frisk]

Everyone claim in same template.  That means you too qvist

[Qvist]

Sorry. I just updated Pandemic, made my move in Through the Ages and now posted in Resistance. Give me a sec.

[Captain_Frisk]

And young nick - I am still leaning towards you

[ashersky]

Okay, here's what I still have in PMs:

Robz888 to left, PPS to right to start the game.
PPS dies, Cayvie is new on right.  Cayvie dies, Morgrim/Volt is new on right.

Original hand:
1. Native Village
2. Moat
3. Rats
4. Steward
5. Secret Chamber

Chose Moat.  Passed the rest.

I don't have any of the PMs in-between.  I clear out my inbox and sent items regularly.  They are gone.

Final hand:

Bishop, Moat, Scrying Pool, Market Square, Embargo.  Those are NOT in order of selection.  Market Square was the one I did not draft.

As already claimed:

N1 - Scrying Pool on YN to get the exact description of the card he played.
N2 - Market Square to gain Smugglers and Tactician from Dsell's death
N3 - Bishop on Galz to try and protect him.

Vote: YoungNick based on Volt's arguments.  I'll Moat tonight, if we don't win.

[Qvist]

Original player to my left: Captain_Frisk
Original player to my right: Young Nick

Initial Draft
1. Cutpurse, Watchtower, Spy, Cartographer, Navigator -> Selected Navigator as it seemed a good Day 1 card, inspecting is always good
2. Forge, Scheme, Sage, Outpost -> Selected Outpost. I like it and I was interested what it does. An extra day in Mafia would be nice, wouldn't it?
3. Treasure Map, Tactician, Lookout -> Selected Treasure Map. It's powerful and I wanted to see what it does.
4. Treasure Map, Wishing Well -> Selected Treasure Map. Obvious choice is obvious.
5. Masquerade

Thus - my initial hand was:
Navigator, Outpost, Treasure Map, Treasure Map, Masquerade

Night 1, I played Outpost + Navigator
This let me target 2 players and see which card were played on them. Robz and Dsell were highly suspectes. So I chose them.
Scout and Spy were used on Dsell
Spy was used on Robz

Night 2, I played 2x Treasure Map. This should have cleared me as IC.

Night 3, I played Masquerade and stole Pillage from Morgrim/Voltgloss

Current player on my left: Captain_Frisk
Current player on my right: Young Nick
Current hand: Pillage

[ashersky]

Oh, current hand: Moat, Embargo, Tac.

[Captain_Frisk]

Oh, current hand: Moat, Embargo, Tac.

Destruction of info is scummmmy

[ashersky]

Oh, current hand: Moat, Embargo, Tac.

Destruction of info is scummmmy

You'd hate my work inbox then.  I keep it as clean as possible.

[Captain_Frisk]

What the heck guys.  Why is it so dead here?

[Voltgloss]

Waiting for Robz, Young Nick, and joth to fullclaim, right?

[Captain_Frisk]

Waiting for Robz, Young Nick, and joth to fullclaim, right?

Yes.  Mostly yn.

[ashersky]

Ok, I'm back for a bit.

[jotheonah]

Original player to my left: Grujah/Galzria
Original player to my right: Dsell

Initial Draft
1. Rats, Embargo, Militia, Tactician, Lookout -> Didn't like any choices, picked Rats because, DXV's favorite card, gotta be good, right?
2. Cutpurse, Smugglers, Scout, Market Square -> Grabbed Smugglers. I always buy Smugglers when I see it in the Kingdom.
3. Torturer, Bishop, Masquerade -> Took Torturer because I didn't want scum getting it
4. Contraband, Embargo -> Took Contraband, mainly out of curiosity
5. Spy

Thus - my initial hand was:
Contraband, Rats, Torturer, Smugglers, Spy

Night 1, I spied on Dsell and Robz.
Dsell's hand: Tactician, Smugglers, Cutpurse
Frisk's hand: Graverobber, Governor, Watchtower, Native Village

I also lost my Smugglers night 1 and got an Embargo instead.

Night 2, I chose not to play a card, because nothing I had made sense given the game state.

Night 3, I played Torturer on Galzria, because it both protects from night kill and roleblocks. It didn't work.

Current player on my left: Young Nick
Current player on my right: Archetype actually never told me.
Current hand: Rats, Embargo, Contraband

[Captain_Frisk]

Still no yn eh?

[Captain_Frisk]

All right guys, he had time to play 2 hours of dominion with eevee, and was still browsing forum @ 3am.

Is it time to say that he's just dicking around and lynch him?

[Qvist]

Why not? I think my vote is still on him.

[jotheonah]

Vote: Young Nick

[Captain_Frisk]

Should we get a robz claim just in case?

[Voltgloss]

Should we get a robz claim just in case?

I would like a Robz claim, yes. 

[Robz888]

Should we get a robz claim just in case?

I would like a Robz claim, yes.

I am confused. I already said what I drafted and played. What else is there to claim? Uh, I'm Town...

[Voltgloss]

Should we get a robz claim just in case?

I would like a Robz claim, yes.

I am confused. I already said what I drafted and played. What else is there to claim? Uh, I'm Town...

Did I miss your summary of drafts/plays?  Did you say what cards you passed on to the person on your right? 

[Voltgloss]

Should we get a robz claim just in case?

I would like a Robz claim, yes.

I am confused. I already said what I drafted and played. What else is there to claim? Uh, I'm Town...

Did I miss your summary of drafts/plays?  Did you say what cards you passed on to the person on your right?

Never mind, I did miss it, b/c you didn't use Frisk's template, but you are excused    My apologies.

[Robz888]

Starting Hand: Market Square, Cartographer, Navigator, Scout Scrying Pool

I took Scout

Hand 2: Adventurer, Apprentice, Menagerie, Bishop

I took Adventurer

Hand 3: Embargo, Militia, Lookout

I took Militia

So, I can't find any PM from Archetype where I took Bishop or another Scout, but my final hand was: 2 Scouts, Adventurer, Militia, and Bishop. I have played 1 Scout and 1 Bishop so far.

What else do you need to know?

[Voltgloss]

Frisk, I'm ready to hammer if there's nothing further you want to discuss.

[Captain_Frisk]

Starting Hand: Market Square, Cartographer, Navigator, Scout Scrying Pool

I took Scout

Hand 2: Adventurer, Apprentice, Menagerie, Bishop

I took Adventurer

Hand 3: Embargo, Militia, Lookout

I took Militia

So, I can't find any PM from Archetype where I took Bishop or another Scout, but my final hand was: 2 Scouts, Adventurer, Militia, and Bishop. I have played 1 Scout and 1 Bishop so far.

What else do you need to know?

Who was to your left / right? 

[Voltgloss]

Starting Hand: Market Square, Cartographer, Navigator, Scout Scrying Pool

I took Scout

Hand 2: Adventurer, Apprentice, Menagerie, Bishop

I took Adventurer

Hand 3: Embargo, Militia, Lookout

I took Militia

So, I can't find any PM from Archetype where I took Bishop or another Scout, but my final hand was: 2 Scouts, Adventurer, Militia, and Bishop. I have played 1 Scout and 1 Bishop so far.

What else do you need to know?

Who was to your left / right?

I think he said this before - Dsell on his left, ash on his right.

I'm pretty sure this is the full original seating order:

Galz -> joth -> Dsell -> Robz -> ash -> pps -> cayvie -> Morg/Volt -> Frisk -> Qvist -> YN -> Eevee -> back to Galz

[Captain_Frisk]

And ash has forgotten his PMs, so he doesn't know what he passed to RobZ. 

I can confirm that his N2 hand is correct.

[Robz888]

Sorry I've been VLA, what I've read of the recent convo it looks like we have this fairly figured out. I concur with you guys.

[jotheonah]

hammertime?

[Voltgloss]

And ash has forgotten his PMs, so he doesn't know what he passed to RobZ. 

I can confirm that his N2 hand is correct.

You mean what he passed to pps.  Robz was on ash's left.

But I think I've reconstructed it from pps's and cayvie's cards played and hands-upon-death (as well as the drafts that came to me from cayvie).  Looks like ash's draft hands were (assuming he is town and indeed picked Moat at the start):

- [Moat], Steward, Native Village, Secret Chamber, Rats
- [Scrying Pool], Market Square, Cartographer, Navigator
- [Bishop], Apprentice, Menagerie
- [Embargo], Lookout
- [Market Square]

The "mystery card" that cayvie played on Night 2 was, unfortunately, part of pps's first-round draft, so only pps could tell us what it was.  I still think this is why, or part of why, scum chose pps to kill on Night 1.

[Voltgloss]

hammertime?

I think so.  Frisk?

YN is at L-1, I believe?  Qvist/ash/joth's votes?  Maybe Frisk and I should both vote just to be on the safe side?

[Captain_Frisk]

And ash has forgotten his PMs, so he doesn't know what he passed to RobZ. 

I can confirm that his N2 hand is correct.

You mean what he passed to pps.  Robz was on ash's left.

But I think I've reconstructed it from pps's and cayvie's cards played and hands-upon-death (as well as the drafts that came to me from cayvie).  Looks like ash's draft hands were (assuming he is town and indeed picked Moat at the start):

- [Moat], Steward, Native Village, Secret Chamber, Rats
- [Scrying Pool], Market Square, Cartographer, Navigator
- [Bishop], Apprentice, Menagerie
- [Embargo], Lookout
- [Market Square]

The "mystery card" that cayvie played on Night 2 was, unfortunately, part of pps's first-round draft, so only pps could tell us what it was.  I still think this is why, or part of why, scum chose pps to kill on Night 1.

No - i mean that RobZ's hand (Adventurer, Scout, Militia, Bishop) is what I observed.  There was a scout in the discard, so it all sounds plausible to me.

[Captain_Frisk]

Lets talk about smuggling. 

My problem is that Asher is to your left, and if you smuggle what I do, then asher could as well.

[Voltgloss]

ash said he discarded Smugglers to the Night 3 discard attack.

If he DOES Smuggle, he's outed himself as a liar.  Besides, if he's town, he's playing Moat tonight.

[Voltgloss]

Deadline's in 4 hours?

[Captain_Frisk]

Deadline's in 4 hours?

Something like that.

Lets do it

Vote: Young Nick

[Voltgloss]

Agreed.

Vote: Young Nick

[ashersky]

Okay, I will Moat as requested, if needed.  But I think there's a very good chance we won.

[jotheonah]

You may as well Moat.

[Captain_Frisk]

Okay, I will Moat as requested, if needed.  But I think there's a very good chance we won.

Actually ash - do not moat.  Do nothing.

I may choose to do something that targets you.

[ashersky]

Okay, I will Moat as requested, if needed.  But I think there's a very good chance we won.

Actually ash - do not moat.  Do nothing.

I may choose to do something that targets you.

I think Volt wants me to Moat that confirms my draft.  I can not Moat, though, if preferred; we got a PINL no-vigging me from Joth.

I will say Volt's reconstruction looked right to me.

[Young Nick]

Here. Did I just get lynched?

[ashersky]

Here. Did I just get lynched?

Yeah.  Care to give your flip?  Don't know where the mod is.

[Captain_Frisk]

Here. Did I just get lynched?

You might have.

If you're town - full claim immediately.

[ashersky]

Here. Did I just get lynched?

Or final info/thoughts to help us if you are town?

[Young Nick]

Qvist, Volt, Asher, C_F. That's a lynch.

I'm frustrated you guys didn't give me a chance to full claim. I know that the deadline is looming, but come on, it would have helped.

[Voltgloss]

If you're town, do it now.

[Captain_Frisk]

Qvist, Volt, Asher, C_F. That's a lynch.

I'm frustrated you guys didn't give me a chance to full claim. I know that the deadline is looming, but come on, it would have helped.

You think the mod is lying re: volt's townitude?

[ashersky]

Qvist, Volt, Asher, C_F. That's a lynch.

I'm frustrated you guys didn't give me a chance to full claim. I know that the deadline is looming, but come on, it would have helped.

Go back and read.  They were pointing out huge chunks of time you were online and not posting.

[Captain_Frisk]

If you're town, do it now.

Alternatively, if you're scum, just admit it and end this unfair to scum game.

[Young Nick]

No. Too frustrated to go back and do the work. If asher is confirmed town, lynch Qvist and then Volt and you win.

[Young Nick]

Qvist, Volt, Asher, C_F. That's a lynch.

I'm frustrated you guys didn't give me a chance to full claim. I know that the deadline is looming, but come on, it would have helped.

Go back and read.  They were pointing out huge chunks of time you were online and not posting.

Yeah because I alt-tab here instinctively, don't stay on for more than 30 seconds and return to studying for my final...which I did not do well on because y'all distracted me too much.

[Captain_Frisk]

No. Too frustrated to go back and do the work. If asher is confirmed town, lynch Qvist and then Volt and you win.

Sounds very pro town to me!

[Young Nick]

In all seriousness, I'm scum, good game guys.

The finals excuse was legit. I only needed the extra time to set up an elaborate way to make Qvist appear scum. Had I been town I would have had time to claim. I legitimately didn't have time to fake-claim, though.

I still do not approve mafia-lurking.

[Captain_Frisk]

Nick - it took me approximately 2 minutes to put together my claim.  In the time that you are spending moaning about the unfairness, you could just do it.

[Young Nick]

I should have claimed to have played Forge. It is not a redirect. It allows me to play two cards. I used it to play Cutpurse (the mysterious discard attack) and Tactician. I don't know why Tactician didn't show up.

[ashersky]

Yay!  I am town!  I wasn't lying!  We win!

[Captain_Frisk]

In all seriousness, I'm scum, good game guys.

The finals excuse was legit. I only needed the extra time to set up an elaborate way to make Qvist appear scum. Had I been town I would have had time to claim. I legitimately didn't have time to fake-claim, though.

I still do not approve mafia-lurking.

Yes, and this is why I was willing to vote...

Sorry - this game was unfair.  If scum had 5 cards, it would have been a whole different game.

[Young Nick]

I should have lied about what Forge did last night and claimed my 5th card, Nobles, was the redirect. That was what I initially intended to do, but floundered under the pressure and time constraints.

cayvie played Possession N2 which is what caused the TM confusion. I wonder what would have happened had she played it on herself.

[Captain_Frisk]

The big problem was that there were SO MANY sources of information.  You could really only lie about 1 card in your hand... spy card was OP.

Tactician was double plus OP.

[Young Nick]

In all seriousness, I'm scum, good game guys.

The finals excuse was legit. I only needed the extra time to set up an elaborate way to make Qvist appear scum. Had I been town I would have had time to claim. I legitimately didn't have time to fake-claim, though.

I still do not approve mafia-lurking.

Yes, and this is why I was willing to vote...

Sorry - this game was unfair.  If scum had 5 cards, it would have been a whole different game.

Yeah you guys should have called me on my BS as soon as you saw I had Tactician and didn't play it.

[ashersky]

So flawless victory right?  D1 no-lynch was key.

[Captain_Frisk]

Tonight I was going to graverob, which was basically play a card from the trash. 

Volt would have done it too, presumably we both would have saged Asher and / or Qvist, and we would have resolved the game.

Governor would give me doublevote for 1 day.  Either public or secret.

[jotheonah]

I was totally gonna Vig ash, even after promising not to.

You don't give a man a vig and expect him not to play it.

[ashersky]

I was totally gonna Vig ash, even after promising not to.

You don't give a man a vig and expect him not to play it.

You can't abuse the PINL!

[jotheonah]

whatever, I'm not the mod.

[Young Nick]

So flawless victory right?  D1 no-lynch was key.

That's what secured our loss, in my mind. Had there been that D1 lynch and I had properly claimed on Nobles, I think I might have been able to get Volt or Qvist lynched. The dream was to get asher lynched, vig Qvist and then someone claim the redirect to get Volt lynched. It was a pipe-dream, though.

I played no card N2 so another Tactician wouldn't screw us over. I played Forge -> Cutpurse, Tactician N3 so that if I were investigated, I would have 0 cards in hand, appearing to have no result.

I was also hoping Tactician might leave somebody with one card too few (because of the Cutpurse, maybe) and as a result I could get them lynched. No such luck.

[Young Nick]

This game was always going to be an up-hill battle for scum. I think cayvie could have avoided her lynch, maybe, but Dsell, boy, he was gone the second D2 started.

[Voltgloss]

What did cayvie play Night 2?

I think this setup is fascinating and has a lot of promise, but needs some tweaks for balance.  I'd definitely play another round from the get-go with some rules adjustments.

[jotheonah]

Yeah, Arch, this game was fun and a good idea but a little broken. I don't believe it should count in the rankings.

[jotheonah]

This game was always going to be an up-hill battle for scum. I think cayvie could have avoided her lynch, maybe, but Dsell, boy, he was gone the second D2 started.

But only becasue he was so scummy Day 1. THere's a reason we chose to investigate him.

[Young Nick]

What did cayvie play Night 2?

I think this setup is fascinating and has a lot of promise, but needs some tweaks for balance.  I'd definitely play another round from the get-go with some rules adjustments.

Possession. It did what I claimed Forge could do. I was in a rush so I copied it word for word.

[Voltgloss]

Never mind, I missed the post about Possession.

[Voltgloss]

Did you actually play Wishing Well looking for Militias, or did you play it looking for Treasure Maps?

[Voltgloss]

And I really hope you did better on your final then that one post suggests! 

[Voltgloss]

Yeah, Arch, this game was fun and a good idea but a little broken. I don't believe it should count in the rankings.

I concur.

[Young Nick]

Did you actually play Wishing Well looking for Militias, or did you play it looking for Treasure Maps?

Hunted for Militias to try to pin those who had it as scum. I didn't know TM's existed at the time. Well, I knew they did, I guess, but didn't think about their implications. I knew Militia would appear scummy, I had no idea about TM.

[cayvie]

i was terrrrrrible

(this game's over, right? i can talk?)

[Young Nick]

i was terrrrrrible

(this game's over, right? i can talk?)

I believe so, yes.

[Robz888]

Well done guys! Impossible setup for scum. Still fun nonetheless!

[eHalcyon]

It was indeed broken against scum.  Nick played valiantly though, and almost pulled off enough confusion to last one more day.

The main problem was the presence of far too much info.  A d1 mass claim would have done scum in almost immediately.  Since cards are passed, it is easy to piece everything together.  It doesn't benefit scum as much as town because scum cannot lie very well.  Since there are duplicate cards, it is hard for them to even lie about what a card does.  What if there was a second Forge?

Scum dodged one bullet in somehow drafting both Tacticians.  But they couldn't dodge the numerous inspection attacks.  Even though various attacks can change handsize, players can immediately claim that they were forced to discard and work out what happened.

The main solutions I have for fixing the game would be:

1. Don't reveal what cards were played overnight.  Revealing that info destroyed any chance scum had of lying effectively.
2. Let scum draft a fifth card.
3. Fewer duplicates (or at least note when cards are unique).

It was an ambitious setup by Archetype.  It was unfortunate that the setup was breakable, but that happens sometimes.

[Captain_Frisk]

Archetype knew it too as soon as we started going spy crazy.

The other thing you could do is just not draft... just assign the cards randomly.

[cayvie]

by hammering myself, i was attempting to implicate galzria as my partner.

[Captain_Frisk]

by hammering myself, i was attempting to implicate galzria as my partner.

Lol.

Why did you play rats?

[jotheonah]

It was indeed broken against scum.  Nick played valiantly though, and almost pulled off enough confusion to last one more day.

The main problem was the presence of far too much info.  A d1 mass claim would have done scum in almost immediately.  Since cards are passed, it is easy to piece everything together.  It doesn't benefit scum as much as town because scum cannot lie very well.  Since there are duplicate cards, it is hard for them to even lie about what a card does.  What if there was a second Forge?

Scum dodged one bullet in somehow drafting both Tacticians.  But they couldn't dodge the numerous inspection attacks.  Even though various attacks can change handsize, players can immediately claim that they were forced to discard and work out what happened.

The main solutions I have for fixing the game would be:

1. Don't reveal what cards were played overnight.  Revealing that info destroyed any chance scum had of lying effectively.
2. Let scum draft a fifth card.
3. Fewer duplicates (or at least note when cards are unique).

It was an ambitious setup by Archetype.  It was unfortunate that the setup was breakable, but that happens sometimes.

Even if they drafted 5 cards, then traded one in for their promo, that would still be better.

[Voltgloss]

by hammering myself, i was attempting to implicate galzria as my partner.

Lol.

Why did you play rats?

To disguise Possession next night.

Is that why you guys killed pps?  Because he was the only other player who saw Possession during drafting?

[eHalcyon]

I'm not sure if I should post the QT links I have.  Archetype hasn't officially posted the flip yet.

[cayvie]

lol

i totally screwed up my setclaims day 1.

i claimed the sets of the cards in the first hand i got to choose from, not the ones i wound up with.

pps would have caught that immediately.

[cayvie]

i played awfully

[Young Nick]

We killed pps because he was playing well, not because of Possession fear. We didn't realize Rats would last forever, that was not the intentional, to mask a future Possession.

[cayvie]

yeah, i played Rats because i said i'd play a dark ages card

[Captain_Frisk]

yeah, i played Rats because i said i'd play a dark ages card

How long did it take you guys to realize that you were screwed?

[cayvie]

yeah, i played Rats because i said i'd play a dark ages card

How long did it take you guys to realize that you were screwed?

hahaha

oh god

like my first post

[Young Nick]

yeah, i played Rats because i said i'd play a dark ages card

How long did it take you guys to realize that you were screwed?

hahaha

oh god

like my first post

As soon as we saw our hands and they weren't all that good. Then after the D1 NL. Then again after D2 started and we realized...

[Dsell]

I was really worried ever since drafting. I sent Archetype a couple PMs saying "you're sure we shouldn't have our kill modifications be cards?"

Treasure map plan=total troll, but I knew treasure maps were in the game. So glad that came up.

Scum started out with an enormous information advantage, which was nice. We almost worked out the seating chart N1. But there were so many unique cards that we didn't know what other people's stuff would do.

And yeah, I'd say there was basically a 0% chance of a scum win here against a competent town.

I still maintain that the D1 case against me was a terrible case and it's just lucky that you hit scum.

[Captain_Frisk]

I still maintain that the D1 case against me was a terrible case and it's just lucky that you hit scum.

I feel the same way about every case that has ever been raised against me.

[Dsell]

But really though!

By the way, this is the worst case I've ever made against anyone, ever.

Actually we all had a pretty hilarious back-and-forth with this case against me, which led to the discovery of New Age Robz.

By the way, this is the worst case I've ever made against anyone, ever.

DoMafia I: Leave your logic at the door!

Yeah, I'd be pretty angry with me, if I was you.

All ready to lynch Dsell, now?

We could lynch you instead. Would that work?

I'm pretty sure Robz has used up all of his strong, pro-town personas and is now trying on the new-agey Robz costume.

"Pro-town" is just a social construct. You'll see, once we've all been reincarnated into cats.

[Qvist]

I basically just came here to see if we won. Yeah, we won. Now I go back to sleep.
But I just wanted to know why Volt/Morgrim was IC. Was is posted anywhere yet?

[Captain_Frisk]

I should have lied about what Forge did last night and claimed my 5th card, Nobles, was the redirect. That was what I initially intended to do, but floundered under the pressure and time constraints.

cayvie played Possession N2 which is what caused the TM confusion. I wonder what would have happened had she played it on herself.

Here's your answer qvist.

[Archetype]

Finally got access to a computer. Sorry for the delay everyone.

First of all, thanks for playing everyone, especially Voltgloss for subbing in for Morgrim.

I agree that it shouldn't be included in the rankings, it was nearly impossible for scum to win. But I'm glad you all had fun.

Here's some QT links:

Scum QT: http://quicktopic.com/48/H/mxnhK95zycJTJ

Spec QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/KgbQxhUrja8

Native Village QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/T2FLtkRqUrgb4

and of course,

Mod Notes QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/qHWXbJVdNWNS

Mod Notes has starting hands, ending hands, all the cards in the game, seating order, night actions, plus some commentary from Ehalc and I.

About the game itself:

-I'll admit: I never intended for Spy to be that powerful. It ended up being a dual cop, which wasn't what I was aiming for. Same goes for Tactician.

-Watchtower sucks. I'm sorry whoever got that, I really needed a filler card, and that's an idea I had (although a bad one).

-Treasure Map: This was going to change the game. 2 useless cards (barring Masquerade switches) or 1 IC. I started it at Morgrim because I expected him to pick something crazy like that. Weird how Qvist got it, but it ended up back at Morgrim. I guess it's Morgrim's fate to be an Innocent Child.

-General Mistakes: Sorry for any mistakes I've made throughout the game. It was the first time I've modded anything, so I was still learning the ropes.

-Menagerie: Though it was never used, this could potentially break the game too.

-Only Young Nick used his kill modification. Yes it was Strongman. Cayvie's was Ninja. Dsell's was Strongman OR Ninja. So, no Janitor.

I feel bad for making Dsell, cayvie, and Young Nick scum. You guys had a huge disadvantage. I added the kill modification to make you guys stronger, but it ended up being your demise.

Thoughts on future games:

-Hiding cards played each night (or maybe disclosing 1 random one each night?) seems one of the best fixes. As well as the next one.

-Scum having 5 cards. I like the idea of them drafting 5 cards, then swapping one for a kill modification, the kill modification still under the original card's name. The card would be swapped after they see what their cards do, so they can safe-claim.

-Drafting. Maybe this should be removed. I could probably still do it, just not say who the players to the right and left are. That could cause some problems though. Or I could not tell their alignment until after the drafting is complete.

-If I was to host this again, I would remove a couple cards, change others, and of course make entirely new ones to keep the game fresh! I would also run it through someone else, just to make sure everything is good.

To answer some questions:

I was really worried ever since drafting. I sent Archetype a couple PMs saying "you're sure we shouldn't have our kill modifications be cards?"

That was mainly because I already said that scum wouldn't have that in their hand. I didn't want to cause any more confusion.

cayvie played Possession N2 which is what caused the TM confusion. I wonder what would have happened had she played it on herself.

I would have said: "Pick a valid target," Nothing more, nothing less.

--

Anyway, thank you again to all who were my guinea pigs participated! Also big thank you to eHalcyon for helping tweak a few things (even though It was too late). I really enjoy modding, and look forward to doing it again in BMX. I will most likely hold another one of these, but not until after all the kinks are worked out.

Thanks again!

[pingpongsam]

I really enjoyed the concept presented in this game and look forward to a more balanced DoMafia II.

[Dsell]

I really enjoyed the concept presented in this game and look forward to a more balanced DoMafia II.

Sorry for killing you N1! It was because we were afraid of you.

[pingpongsam]

I appreciate the compliment. I decided to go play Resistance where everyone gets to participate for the duration of the game.

[Qvist]

Thanks for moderating Archetype. It was fun and I'm looking forward to a more balanced version of this. I liked the general concept and the drafting process made it special. I wouldn't remove this. But 5 card starts for Mafia is a must.

[Robz888]

But really though!

By the way, this is the worst case I've ever made against anyone, ever.

Actually we all had a pretty hilarious back-and-forth with this case against me, which led to the discovery of New Age Robz.

By the way, this is the worst case I've ever made against anyone, ever.

DoMafia I: Leave your logic at the door!

Yeah, I'd be pretty angry with me, if I was you.

All ready to lynch Dsell, now?

We could lynch you instead. Would that work?

I'm pretty sure Robz has used up all of his strong, pro-town personas and is now trying on the new-agey Robz costume.

"Pro-town" is just a social construct. You'll see, once we've all been reincarnated into cats.

Ha! That was fun.

[Archetype]

Some ending flavor:

Everyone was in a frenzy, cards were flying everywhere, hands were shown, lies were told, and secrets were revealed. Halfway through all this, Morgrim had to leave, Voltgloss opting to take his place. He carefully looked over all the cards on the table, and pointed at Young Nick saying:

"Get that rulebreaker!"

Everyone, ashersky, Captain_Frisk, Robz888, Qvist, jothenoah, and, of course, Voltgloss, all ran to Young Nick's chair and grabbed ahold of the bottom.

"What are you doing!?" He screamed, "I need to finish doing my finals!"

They paraded to the back door, chanting, "Rulebreaker! Rulebreaker! Let's get rid of the rulebreaker!" Someone plucked a skeleton key out of Young Nick's pocket, and carefully unlocked the back door.

Pingpongsam, Galzria,  and Eevee were on the other side, there outstretched arms welcoming Young Nick. Dsell and cayvie both pushed against the chair, but it was no use. The players was too unified! With one last heave, they tossed Young Nick out into the backyard. Pingpongsam, Eevee and Galzria all ran back in, eager to be inside. Dsell and cayvie both scrambled to get inside, but the door was closed and locked before they even got to it.

Young Nick, the Mafia-aligned player has been lynched. Everyone looked at his hand, but they couldn't find one. Looked like he had no cards.

--

The Rulefollowers cheered! They had disposed of all the rulebreakers! They all took their original seats just as Voltgloss bought the last Province, ending the game.

--
Just then, Archetype burst through the front door! He had returned! The table was a complete mess with cards everywhere, but he was glad that everyone had had fun!

And most importantly, Galzria and Voltgloss had tied with the most (M)VP! Good job to them!


The game was over! See you soon for another game of...

DoMafia!

[Dsell]

Ha! That was fun.

Definitely! This game helped me discover New-Age Dsell too, I just had to let go of any thoughts of winning. Maybe in the next game I'll be reincarnated as a better player.

Trolling everyone after my lynch was the best thing ever.