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[Robz888]

I believe Eevee and agree with what he did. I also understand why I look scummy to him.

Vote: Dsell

[ashersky]

I believe Eevee and agree with what he did. I also understand why I look scummy to him.

Vote: Dsell

See, I'm not crazy.

[Dsell]

I'm not sure if these votes are because people think I'm actually scummy or just to prod me. I suppose I get it if my spot on the Qvist wagon looks suspicious but how am I supposed to defend myself from that? It was a genuinely scummy thing to do and it's not like I just hopped aboard the wagon with no reason.

[ashersky]

I'm not sure if these votes are because people think I'm actually scummy or just to prod me. I suppose I get it if my spot on the Qvist wagon looks suspicious but how am I supposed to defend myself from that? It was a genuinely scummy thing to do and it's not like I just hopped aboard the wagon with no reason.

I think I lean toward prodding more than lynching.  I mean, everyone voting Qvist felt it was scummy.

Do you plan to unvote?

[Dsell]

I'm not sure if these votes are because people think I'm actually scummy or just to prod me. I suppose I get it if my spot on the Qvist wagon looks suspicious but how am I supposed to defend myself from that? It was a genuinely scummy thing to do and it's not like I just hopped aboard the wagon with no reason.

I think I lean toward prodding more than lynching.  I mean, everyone voting Qvist felt it was scummy.

Do you plan to unvote?

I already did! Like right after Eevee posted that. I have not thoroughly read the first ~6 pages but I am caught up on the last couple.

[ashersky]

I have a one-shot day-cop I just used on Qvist. He is town.

Uhhhh ok. Unvote.

Oh, sorry.  Missed that.

[Dsell]

I'm sheeping the cop, who voted Dsell.

Eevee's already pointed this out, but this situation doesn't add up to me. Ashersky is frustrated at Eevee for this situation, but Eevee seemed to vote for me only because Ashersky said my vote on Qvist was the scummiest. In other words, Eevee sheeped Ashersky's case, and then Ashersky "sheeped" Eevee's vote. Now Ashersky is claiming that he's sheeping the cop, when in reality the cop only voted because of Ashersky.

So it seems like Ashersky is distancing himself from his own vote/opinion. Quite odd.

[Qvist]

Oh, that looked really bad for me.
So, I'm glad Eevee used the one-shot ability to clear me.
I see that you thought it was deflection, but rather a bad coincidence because I wanted to ask about Dsell either way but answered the other stuff first.

Robz, Dsell and shraeye's wagon looked scummy, but I can't tell who of them is the most scummiest of these.
Maybe Dsell, because he hasn't posted so far and his post was only to vote for me... strange.

[Jimmmmm]

So I'm not sure what else to talk about here, nothing has really jumped out at me as scummy or otherwise. Wondering what people think about Eevee: how much Town cred do we give him for his 1-shot daycop claim? My thought is that the fact that this is a closed setup makes it less likely that scum would do something like that to someone not on their team, because they wouldn't know for sure if there's another scum team or SK, so if Qvist is scum then he knows that Eevee is also scum, and if Qvist is Town, then maybe Eevee put a target on himself to be NKed anyway? Not sure, it just doesn't seem like a smart scum move if you don't know if there are other scum lurking in the shadows. So I'm going to say that Eevee and Qvist are almost certainly on the same team. Next question, how often is it a good play to draw this much attention to yourself to give your team mate Town points? I'm not sure really. Seems like a gutsy move, especially this early in the day when there was no guarantee that Qvist was going to be lynched. So I think it most likely that they are both in fact Town.

/Captain Obvious

Having said that, strange behaviour is strange, from both Eevee and ash.

[jotheonah]

Unvote.

Just skimmed. At work, so don't have time to dig in to this. I'm not positive there was any scum on the Qvist wagon - could just be a bunch of townies eager to end day 1. But I guess I agree that it's better to look on than off right now. Will do the re-reads later today.

[mcmcsalot]

So this game is moving weirdly fast for me. Like there has Ben no real discussion but a faster legitimate wagon then I've seen. I agree eevee is acting weird but I don't see the eevee qvist scum team. Ash, dsell, robz, I guess I find ash the scummiest because I his interaction with eevee.

[jotheonah]

If Eevee is scum who made up a 1-shot daycop ability, he has some kind of chutzpah.

It's not impossible, I suppose. It's something to consider tomorrow if somehow neither Qvist nor Eevee ends up NK'd.

[Eevee]

How am I acting weird? I logged in from phone, had gotten my copping results and rushed to report them despite not having time to reread and think of the ramifications because I felt I had to protect a townie from guys like joth screaming "obvscummmm" and people wagoning like crazy. So, I posted, and asked people to analyze the wagon because its the biggest piece of info we had. I also said without rereading, my impression would be that at least Robz's vote looks bad. Ashersky helpfully chimed in right away, saying "in my opinion Dsell is scummiest". I checked my phone again, didn't really think much other than "well, lets prod the wagon into explaining their behavior", and voted for Dsell then, "ashersky is surely better caught up than i am". then ashersky voted for Dsell as well, SAYING HE WAS SHEEPING ME. I proceeded to call him out for this, he responded by saying I'm acting weird and suspecting I'm lying and not really a cop.

I mean I see that the daycop power is weeeird - it's the first time we see something like that. also, my vote on Dsell was kind of lazy but i did announce i was going to reread to form an opinion when i woke up and had computer access. what do you mean I'm acting weird?

also, will have computer access soon and will commence said reread in the following couple if hours.

[jotheonah]

I'm aware that no one is suspecting me (because I apparently have a weird, weird meta) but I will say this anyway:

I'm not hugely surprised to find that Qvist is town. I did have high hopes he was scum, but I was nowhere near as sure about it as I made myself out to be.

It was just that it was looking like a slow day one, and I've noticed that the only thing that can push a day one lynch is conviction.

But the way I see it now, we got the first flip for free without even having to kill a townie to do it. Which effectively ends the day 1 mentality (which I hate) while still giving us plenty of day 1 to work with. So we should be acting more or less like this is the start of Day 2, and we lynched Qvist and he flipped town. Except we don't have a nightkill and Qvist is still around. We should be taking our time and not rushing to a lynch, but we absolutely should use this wagon and this info.

[Eevee]

Good post joth, I was suspecting you and that considerably lessened said suspicions.

.. although fake conviction is sort of meh, because next time ku really get a strong scum read all I will think about is this. 

[jotheonah]

Well, I really did think he was scum. I just, maybe, exaggerated a little to get things going. And I don't regret it. I think a big problem since we had that string of D1 scum lynches is now we're far too scared to D1 mislynch, as a community, and so we dither a lot. I advocate taking strong positions.

[Eevee]

I advocate not faking positions though. I advocate getting strong enough to reads to justify strong positions, but thats haaaard. I do 100% agree with the value of strong positions though, I myself end up having strong "wouldnt lynch" positions early on because I find those kinds of reads easier for myself to take.

[jotheonah]

Ok, I think shraeye is the scummiest on the wagon. This:

But the deflection, and reaction, is why I am voting Q (not Arch).

Based on these I was tempted to vote.  After sleeping on it, I still feel inclined to vote

vote: Qvist

feels very forced. Like "I have now waited an appropriate amount of time to hop onto this wagon." It feels calculated.

My experience with town!shraeye is that he doesn't sheep. He's out there making his own super-long cases. Even when he's voting for someone with a wagon he endeavors to make his own additions to the case. Here, he sheeped, and he did it in a way that doesn't feel genuine to me.

Vote: shraeye

[mcmcsalot]

Anyone notice arch popped in with a hey i'm here and have the most time on weekends and then didn't post the entire weekend... Vote: Archetype

[Eevee]

So here is the promised reread of the Qvist wagon, narrated by yours truly. Warning, lots of text ahead.

Hey guys bot archetype with me. I got a good feeling he's scum.

Explainemanttos please?

He's textbook actilurking. He's been online but he ignored my vote completely. He's trying to be invisible.

Joth is suspecting archetype for reasonable reasons. Ok this far.

Qvist comes into the stage:

I'm not sure. He had to catch up with all the other games he's playing in. Let's give him an opportunity to justify.

Qvist plays / mods a ton of non-mafia games. From there he knows Arche had been busy (I didn't), so he shares that knowledge with town.

Isn't this the only game you are currently in?  How do you know what Archetype is up to?

Apparently ashersky didn't know either. Seems overly aggressive / like he really wants to push for someone, but maybe that's just me.

Both Jimmm and Qvist clarify it was indeed 7 wonders and Small World that caused Qvist to know archetype had been busy lately, joth doesn't acknowledge this AT ALL but just posts:

Calling it now. Qvist and Archetype scum team.

To which ashersky replies with:

This is what I was saying.  Although it'd be a scum slip of Frisk proportions.
Anyone who updates non-mafia games instead of this flavorful masterpiece has got to be scum, though, right?

!!! WHERE IS THE SCUM SLIP? WHY ARE YOU CASTING SUSPICION TO THESE PEOPLE? I don't always call scum teams early in day 1, but when I do it for no reasons at all?

And then to the post that apparently made it crystal clear:

So, what about Dsell? Any idea why he's so quiet?

So, Qvist, now confirmed town (to me anyways) gets suspected for VERY weird reasons and wants to change the topic by asking a reasonable question. This cements him as scum in everyone's mind WHY?

Joth, have you forgotten your plan of going after archetype's scumbuddy Qvist after he has flipped scum? If not, what do you think about it now?

Apparently someone already made sense at the time, but then

But the deflection, and reaction, is why I am voting Q (not Arch).

Based on these I was tempted to vote.  After sleeping on it, I still feel inclined to vote

vote: Qvist

It's weird to me he follows up with this. Could be scum that first makes a good post trying to get town cred (successfully I might add, I found shraeye's first post very towny) but then realizes no wait we can actually get this guy lynched and joins the wagon? I think a townie that just got impatient and wanted to get the game moving is more likely.

Robz then asks why are we voting for Qvist, to which ashersky answers with "deflection" (fair, although I don't think it's scummy), joth with "scumminess" (WHICH WASN'T THERE) and shraeye with "To give us something to talk about." (conveniently fits the townie who wants stuff to happen-narrative I just built without remembering this post).

Mcmc then does something interesting; votes for joth for pushing the case so hard it reminded him of himself in his first blitz game. Town points for this I think. I'll think out loud: what are mcmc's options here if he is scum?
A) He can join the wagon and hope a townie goes down, but that runs the risk of him looking scummy for wanting a townie gone for less than legitimate reasons.
B) He can not do or say anything, and hope townies drive the lynch through without scum help.
C) He can post about an alternative target he has (in this case one that's in direct conflict with the first target in that they are unlikely to both be scum together).

I'm not saying C is impossible. It might even be good if joth is town - creating a Qvist or Joth situation would certainly be a lucrative situation for scum. Still, I wonder. I know when I'm scum, townies pushing case for townies is the best thing that can happen and I feel it feels unappealing to intervene because it might just screw things up. So long story short, I think scummcmc would have reacted to the case differently, so I think he is likely to be town.

you're ignoring the part where my case is totally correct. you notice qvist has made no effort to defend himself?

Defend himself against WHAT? Against "scumminess", as you put it? The whole case is him knowing archetype's general irl busies from other games he runs (nulltell) and his deflection of the suspicion on HIMSELF for this? It's not like he started distracting us with some absolute jibberish, he asked Dsell a legitimate question (one he even answered shortly after). The thing Qvist should have done was calling you out for pushing a lynch for TERRIBLE reasons and calling it a case. Him not doing that was bad town play, but that is NOT AT ALL dependent on one's alignment. Calling the cases against you terrible is what scum loves to do even when the case is good, in this case I bet scumQvist would have been just jubilant to attack you (if he realized how bad your case is). My guess is, Qvist just didn't realize how flimsy the "case" against him was, so he couldnt think of anything to say to defend himself. Like, it's true he knew archetype's situation and it's true he wanted to steer the discussion to other people. Those are facts everyone agrees with, they just don't make Qvist scummy at all.

Can veterans weigh in? Is jotheonah the type of town player to push this hard on someone with this little of a case? Would scum jotheonah do this and not worry about it looking scummy?

I absolutely think this could be town Jo, but I feel some people read that as "that behavior makes him look townier" which is not at all what I was saying. I think his crazy tunneling for less than good reasons is a null tell for the most part, I don't think I can glean anything from it / the opposite reads I get from it cancel each other out.

Vote: Qvist

I read the part where he obv-deflected. Gotta vote for that.

Voting for Qvist for not knowing how to react to a terribad case, ughh. Like I would get this maybe maybe if the case on Qvist was actually solid or if he had deflected with a bad topic of discussion but not this, no. Scum or town could tear apart joth's "case" on Qvist just as easily. Therefore him not doing that but just admitting "your facts are correct, it's just the conclusion that's wrong" is not telling of his alignment, at all.


Okay, that's everything up until my claim. I'll leave it here for now to gauge reactions (and I'd appreciate them, really), but I'll try to make a similar post about everything that went down after my claim later because I think that's really interesting too. From this read, none of the Qvist voters seem scummier than other to me, but on the whole I think they are the scummiest group of people in this town just because I truly think the case on Qvist was sooo bad. I'm open to being convinced I'm wrong about that (in which case I'll obviously reconsider everything), but for now FoS all the Qvist voters and townread on Mcmc. Discuss!

[jotheonah]

Nicely done, Eevee.

Sorry for spearheading a terrible wagon on you, Qvist.

@Eevee I do still think Archetype is scummy. I also think Qvist was scummy (when I said he was). Granted "scumminess" was kind of a flippant answer, but he hadn't exactly done a whole lot to gain town cred.

But the priority now has to be hunting the wagon. That's much more concrete data than whatever we had going before.

[ashersky]

But the priority now has to be hunting the wagon. That's much more concrete data than whatever we had going before.

Agreed here.  The order on the last vote count was:

ashersky, joth, shraeye, Robz

What do we think the chances are that 1, 2, 3, or 4 scum are on the wagon?  Clearly no one on the wagon will argue that all 4 were scum, since I know I'm town, and others will say the same.  So tossing that option out, it seems like it would go from most likely to least likely (1 to 3).

We've had some "who's scummiest" chats on the wagon, based on reasoning, sheeping, etc.  How else can we glean info from this data?  As long as Eevee isn't playing us, we can safely assume Qvist is town, so his interactions should tell us something.  Not sure what though.

The Archetype connection looks different now, given what we know.  How do we take that into consideration?

[Qvist]

But the priority now has to be hunting the wagon. That's much more concrete data than whatever we had going before.

Agreed here.  The order on the last vote count was:

ashersky, joth, shraeye, Robz

Any reason why you ignore Dsell here?
I think you have to search not amongst the ones who started the wagon. You have to search these who jumped on the wagon. And that's shraeye, Robz and Dsell with the last two being the scummiest to me.

[ashersky]

But the priority now has to be hunting the wagon. That's much more concrete data than whatever we had going before.

Agreed here.  The order on the last vote count was:

ashersky, joth, shraeye, Robz

Any reason why you ignore Dsell here?
I think you have to search not amongst the ones who started the wagon. You have to search these who jumped on the wagon. And that's shraeye, Robz and Dsell with the last two being the scummiest to me.

I looked at the last vote count, sorry.  Dsell was last to join, first to jump off.  So:

ashersky, joth, shraeye, Robz, Dsell is the order.

@Eevee - To be honest, the "scum slip" thing was jokey, right?  I mean, joth may or may not have been joking about calling the Q/Arch team, but I was joking when I agreed.  And if you two really were a team, it would have been an epic slip to be caught that way.  So that's what that whole thing was about.

[Dsell]

@Ash, Shraeye was the first to get off the wagon by my count.