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Author Topic: Buying cards for your opponents  (Read 1565 times)

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kn1tt3r

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Buying cards for your opponents
« on: November 04, 2011, 10:27:12 am »
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A bit similar to the Hinterlands "on gain" theme, I've had the idea to make cards that can also be bought for your opponents. Of course they have to be either very situational or with a corresponding bonus/penalty, but I think it could work.

Here are some possible (not really thought through) examples:


Carriage ($2), Action
+2 Cards
------
When you buy this choose one: You gain it yourself, or every other player does.

===========

Ambrosia ($3), Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Discard 2 cards from your hand.
------
When you buy this choose one: You gain it yourself, or every other player does.
If you've gained it yourself you may gain a card costing 2$.

============

Contagion ($6); Victory
[-2 VP]
------
When you buy this choose one: You gain it yourself, or every other player does.
If you've gained it yourself gain a Province. Otherwise gain two Coppers.

===========

Dud ($4), Victory
[0 VP]
-------
When you buy this choose one: You gain it yourself, or every other player does.
If you've gained it yourself gain two Silvers.

===========

Investment ($2), Treasure
[-4$]
When you play this, it is worth $3 more for each Investment in play.
------
When you buy this choose one: You gain it yourself, or every other player does.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 11:21:22 am by kn1tt3r »
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theory

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Re: Buying cards for your opponents
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2011, 11:05:27 am »
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Why would you ever buy Dud for yourself?   ???
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Qvist

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Re: Buying cards for your opponents
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2011, 11:11:56 am »
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Why would you ever buy Dud for yourself?   ???

If you're going for Silk Road maybe.

kn1tt3r

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Re: Buying cards for your opponents
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2011, 11:17:05 am »
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Why would you ever buy Dud for yourself?   ???

If you're going for Silk Road maybe.
Yes, and maybe Gardens, but it's probably too weak anyway.
Maybe changing it to 2 Silvers? Is one Gold too strong?

EDIT: Changed it to two Silvers.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 11:21:41 am by kn1tt3r »
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rinkworks

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Re: Buying cards for your opponents
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2011, 11:23:57 am »
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Interesting thoughts.  I guess my concern is what befell IGG during development:  the ability to curse someone *every turn* by using up a buy is pretty powerful (contrast with Witch, which is reusable but only usually once per shuffle), so what happened in some versions of the card was that you'd have this pre-game cursing round until the IGG's were gone, and then the real game could start.

I'm a little worried that that would happen with some of these.  But I also don't see any reason why they can't work with the right balance of power, in the same way that IGG does.  I particularly like the first two cards:  cards that are potentially useful, just so underpowered as to probably not be worth the card slot.  Would a Carriage slow down your opponent more than another Cellar would help you?  Tricky decision, sometimes.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Buying cards for your opponents
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2011, 11:56:57 am »
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Interesting thoughts.  I guess my concern is what befell IGG during development:  the ability to curse someone *every turn* by using up a buy is pretty powerful (contrast with Witch, which is reusable but only usually once per shuffle), so what happened in some versions of the card was that you'd have this pre-game cursing round until the IGG's were gone, and then the real game could start.

I'm a little worried that that would happen with some of these.  But I also don't see any reason why they can't work with the right balance of power, in the same way that IGG does.  I particularly like the first two cards:  cards that are potentially useful, just so underpowered as to probably not be worth the card slot.  Would a Carriage slow down your opponent more than another Cellar would help you?  Tricky decision, sometimes.

The balancing is tough, that's right. But well, you just have to ensure the "attack" is not too bad, or the card is expensive enough (like Contagion).

And as for the first two: What's charming is that you sometimes really want those cards yourself. Carriage without other carddraws or Ambrosia with some Library/Hamlet combo for example.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Buying cards for your opponents
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2011, 12:17:10 pm »
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I think IGG's tendency to create a small "mini-game" at the start, is because the card itself helps fuel the war. The very mechanics of the card are built to buy more IGG. IGG creates a "rush" game, because the card aids the rush.

Knit's cards don't have that mechanic in them, also Contagion is worth 6, so the war would start later and would come at the price of not reaching for gold. I would say that the "penalty" of two coppers though, may not be steep enough to spread a -2VP card around. Only because, there are times that two coppers is actually a REALLY useful benefit, in which case, the war for Contagion rages and would dominate the game.

I think you'll find in play testing that Contagion would warp the board, but for reasons that are subtly different than what rink says (or at least for not the EXACT same reason as IGG does). I have a similar card in my variant, which I have play tested about 20 times now. It spreads a curse for purchase, at 5$, but provides less utility than IGG. That card CAN warp the board and sometimes it cannot. It really depends on how the board is set up. When it does warp the board, it becomes the exact war rink suggests. When it doesn't, its because the card itself doesn't accelerate the war, (it actually slows it down), so the "rush" factor isn't there. I've had games where the opponent who rushes my card has LOST. This pleased me, look for that same tendency when you play test.

When you test Contagion (and you really, really must test it, all speculation on a thread like this, is pure speculation, no matter how strong a player doing the speculation is), watch the velocity of the card and in particular, see if there are times the card is NEVER purchased or is only purchased a few times. If 90% of the time, a game with Contagion not only clears the pile, but also forces a war to obtain it, you may want to consider tweaking the card.

Please note these comments come from a very inexperienced player, but now has 54 games under his belt of testing his own expansion, (with one of the cards in the set, somewhat similar to Contagion). So my advice here should be taken with large grains of salt.
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rinkworks

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Re: Buying cards for your opponents
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2011, 12:18:11 pm »
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Makes me wonder what more powerful cards might be situational enough that dispensing them to opponents would be good moves sometimes.   Of course it gets complicated if a card might be bad for one opponent but good for the other.

A list of cards that might be fun with a "either you gain this or your opponents do" clause:

- Baron (usually bad once your Estates are gone or lost in a fat deck)
- Chapel (or any other trasher, once the trashing is done)
- Coppersmith/Counting House (if several Coppers have already been trashed)
- Cursing attacks (once the Curses are gone or low)
- Treasure Map (usually bad in a fat deck, but you're playing with FIRE)
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Young Nick

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Re: Buying cards for your opponents
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2011, 01:27:49 pm »
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I have to say, Investment looks horribly unappealing to buy for yourself. Unless your deck is otherwise trimmed, but flooded with Investments, I would never gain it for myself. Maybe make it a little better?
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jonts26

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Re: Buying cards for your opponents
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2011, 01:40:35 pm »
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I think this is an interesting mechanic, but it needs to be balanced very carefully. While many of these cards look fine for two player, it would be very easy to have a degenerate multiplayer game that ends pretty quickly on piles with a couple of these cards in the kingdom.
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