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Author Topic: Mage Knight III (Game starts, Choosing Tactics)  (Read 3613 times)

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Qvist

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Mage Knight III (Game starts, Choosing Tactics)
« on: April 26, 2013, 06:36:32 pm »

I guess you guys are interested in playing another one.

But before we do I'm interested with which constraints we're playing. So if you're interested please answer this. Look in the rulebook for more details.

Import Decisions:
Cooperative, Competitive or Team (2vs2) ?
Player vs. Player Combat. Yes/No?
A specific scenario which has some additional constraints or even a different scoring?
Include the expansion "Lost Legions". Yes/No?
(Note: It has an additional hero, some additional enemy tokens, Advanced Action cards, Map Tiles and also some additional rules as some enemies and tiles have new symbols. Also note: I haven't played with it either, so I'm not comfortable with those rules yet.)

Also, we could play with some variants which I suggest:
Auctioning the Heroes where you have to pay fame to get a certain hero. Yes/No ?
Random Tiles Orientation for more flexible maps. Yes/No?
Changing the difficulty level by change the level of the cities or Megapolis (multiple cities on one spot). Yes/No?
Friendly Mana: You're not allowed to take Gold Mana Dice if the specific color dice is available in the source. Yes/No?

Some other major changes which might be a bit too early:
Making it harder by starting at Night. Yes/No?
Start at Day but at the end of the Round, roll two mana dice. If any of them is black, night falls and it is Night until the end of the game. Yes/No?
"Rampage" variant for more rampaging enemies. Yes/No?
Interactive Combat where an opponent "controls" the attacked enemies. Yes/No?
"More Deckbuilding": Action Upgrades/Drafting/No ?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 06:18:58 pm by Qvist »
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Tables

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Re: Mage Knight III (Signup Stage)
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2013, 07:01:05 pm »

I'd be interested in playing as stated in the thread. I'd likely go for something mostly as simple as possible, but full competitive. I'd probably want the standard full conquest scenario then but would be okay trying something else.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Galzria

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Re: Mage Knight III (Signup Stage)
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2013, 07:30:06 pm »

In, yes!

1) Competitive
2) No PvP
3) No differing Scenarios
4) Expansions are good
5) No auctioning
6) Yes to random orientation
7) Extra difficult sounds fun
8) No friendly Mana
9) Night start sounds cool
10) No permanent night options though
11) Yes Rampage
12) No interactive Combat
13) Yes extra deck building

I'm not set in stone on any of these, but it's my gut feelings towards them all. The biggest one I think is No PvP - although I guess if everybody else really wanted it I could deal with it.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

theorel

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Re: Mage Knight III (Signup Stage)
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2013, 10:43:04 pm »

IN.
1) Competitive
2) (PvP) Either way
3) New scenario would be cool, if not, then definitely expansion.
4) Yes Expansion.  (But if you're uncomfortable with it, I'm okay as long as we do a different scenario)

5) Meh...not familiar enough with the heroes to want to auction them.
6) Changing orientation would be cool, no big deal.
7) Definitely more difficult.  Not sure how difficult makes sense.  Megalopoplis seems a bit high...
8) Prefer no friendly mana, but happy either way.

9) Day start seems better for now.
10) No constant night.
11) I could go either way on rampaging.
12) Non-interactive combat.  Would slow things down too much seems to me.
13) Indifferent to more deck-building...this seems like it might be too much of a change at this time, but if everyone else wanted to, that's cool.
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popsofctown

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Re: Mage Knight III (Signup Stage)
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2013, 07:09:54 pm »

via Imgflip Meme Generator

Seriously though.  I think the coolest way to play would be PvP enabled, teams, and cities with very high levels that thusly encourage cooperative assaults.  It cuts down on "pick on whoever is ahead", and introduces some interesting strategy.
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popsofctown

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Re: Mage Knight III (Signup Stage)
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2013, 07:40:39 pm »

Player vs. Player Combat. Yes/No?
Yes.  It seems very balanced (just engaging in it for the sake of it isn't a good idea, especially the way blocks are balanced to be easier to obtain than attacks).
Quote
A specific scenario which has some additional constraints or even a different scoring?
Meh.  A lot of the scenarios seem like they are less in the spirit of Fischer random and 70 factorial factorial Dominion kingdoms and more in the spirit of, I'm a boardgame sampler collector, I've already played this 80$ board game twice, it's about time I bought a new game, well maybe i'll use one of these variant rules and I can pretend this is a different game.

Few of them seem like they would improve the game, or even change things up without damaging the game in an equal and opposite fashion.  The ones geared towards shortening the game will reduce strategy.  I don't remember any of the variants having equal or greater length, except maybe rampage/upping city levels.  Those I'm in favor of, if only because in Mage Knights I we flattened the game long before the allotted time, and that was in spite of absurdly dry mana in the early rounds.  I'm inclined to take the arrogant interpretation of those results and say that all us ex Dominion players are really good at deckbuilding games.
Quote
Include the expansion "Lost Legions". Yes/No?
I expect it would have a strictly positive effect on my experience, but I'm not dying to have it as soon as possible.  I'd rather you not get burned out on modding due to additional difficulties, so we can stick with the base game.
Quote
Auctioning the Heroes where you have to pay fame to get a certain hero. Yes/No ?
Why not?  At the worst, we all bid 0 and nothing happens.  I would probably bid 0, except maybe on the rampage variant, where I might bid, like, one.
I was pretty surprised that the rules suggested bidding begin-of-game fame.  That is sooo expensive, because it delays level 2 by 1 fame, which not only delays level 3 by 1 fame, but delays it even more because you were in a weaker state for a longer period of time, and et cetera and et cetera.
I'm also surprised that the creator has what seems to me to be an inconsistent position on player information regarding initial conditions.  He wants the variant to be chosen -before- heroes are auctioned; that's the way I would have it too.  But the other initial conditions (I suppose because they are the random ones, but I don't see that as being a basis), like starting source mana, initial offers, etc, are supposed to be produced only after hero auction.  Why come?  It's like being required to commit to which 3/4 opening you want before the 5's are revealed.  To me.
Quote
Random Tiles Orientation for more flexible maps. Yes/No?
Why not?
Quote
Changing the difficulty level by change the level of the cities or Megapolis (multiple cities on one spot). Yes/No?
Megapolis seems kinda swingy, I'm undecided on it.  Higher level cities or some other difficulty increaser seems necessary because MK1 blazed pretty fast.
Quote
Friendly Mana: You're not allowed to take Gold Mana Dice if the specific color dice is available in the source. Yes/No?
Unfriendly mana is already fueling day 5 wins, so no.
Quote
Making it harder by starting at Night. Yes/No?
This seems like inferior design.  The flow of buying spells day 1 to use night 1 seems best to me.
Quote
Start at Day but at the end of the Round, roll two mana dice. If any of them is black, night falls and it is Night until the end of the game. Yes/No?
No.
Quote
"Rampage" variant for more rampaging enemies. Yes/No?
This could be cool.  One thing I like is that it gives you a little bit more renewable fame source-age.  In teams the need for that gets mitigated quite a bit by keeps and PVP though, so if we do in fact do teams I'd rather go without. In free for all, assaulting a keep doesn't seem very attractive, you only get half the fame, for the same accomplishment and you're not sure the player you're damaging is the one who will beat you out for first place.
Quote
Interactive Combat where an opponent "controls" the attacked enemies. Yes/No?
No.  Not a fan of rock paper scissors.  Even less of a fan of being on a forum and having the ability to card count and calculate a Nash equilibrium for the possible decisions, which the perfectionist in me would compel me to do.
Quote
"More Deckbuilding": Action Upgrades/Drafting/No ?
The choice aspect seems promising, but the only proposed way of doing it accelerates the game, and I think we need deceleration.
I think the offer gives you choice enough.  I'm really disappointed and almost surprised that there is no incentivizer for picking neglected Advanced Actions from the offer.  Terra Mystica and Small World both have one.  "Fame tokens" would work rather easily as an incentive for taking previously unwanted Advanced Actions, and as slightly offseting the effect of a player getting a powerful AA before any of the other players even got a chance to take it.
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popsofctown

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Re: Mage Knight III (Signup Stage)
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2013, 02:31:18 pm »

I might have gone overboard on my answers, but discovering ideal variant rules is something I find important, in a large part because I am contemplating buying this game for my video game playgroup.  They are very very competitive and not Black Market/Treasure Mappy kind of people so I am hoping to figure out the best tweaks that make the game palatable to them.
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Qvist

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Re: Mage Knight III (Signup Stage)
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2013, 10:16:48 am »

Ok, 4 players signed up, perfect. I decided this:

Cooperative, Competitive or Team (2vs2) ? Competitive, everyone agreed
Player vs. Player Combat. Yes/No? No, with Tables as new player and Galzria against it, I think it's better without.
A specific scenario which has some additional constraints or even a different scoring? No, standard Full Conquest of 3 days and 3 nights
Include the expansion "Lost Legions". Yes/No? Yes to change at least something and provide more options. Shouldn't change that much.
(Note: It has an additional hero, some additional enemy tokens, Advanced Action cards, Map Tiles and also some additional rules as some enemies and tiles have new symbols. Also note: I haven't played with it either, so I'm not comfortable with those rules yet.)

Also, we could play with some variants which I suggest:
Auctioning the Heroes where you have to pay fame to get a certain hero. Yes/No ? No, although pops brings up a good point. Maybe we could try it out another time.
Random Tiles Orientation for more flexible maps. Yes/No? Yes as it doesn't change much.
Changing the difficulty level by change the level of the cities or Megapolis (multiple cities on one spot). Yes/No? Yes, I will change the level of the cities. Not sure how much yet, probably 2 levels.
Friendly Mana: You're not allowed to take Gold Mana Dice if the specific color dice is available in the source. Yes/No? No

Some other major changes which might be a bit too early:
Making it harder by starting at Night. Yes/No? No
Start at Day but at the end of the Round, roll two mana dice. If any of them is black, night falls and it is Night until the end of the game. Yes/No? No
"Rampage" variant for more rampaging enemies. Yes/No? Yes as most agreed with this. Tables, are you cool with this?
Interactive Combat where an opponent "controls" the attacked enemies. Yes/No? No and isn't that suitable for PBF as mentioned
"More Deckbuilding": Action Upgrades/Drafting/No ? No, probably later. As theorel said it might be too much and it's Tables' first game


This leads to following setup.
Standard Full Conquest with the expansion "Lost Legions", Random Tiles Orientation, Harder Cities and "Rampage" variant.
I have to add the changes from Lost Legions first, and then I will start the game, probably this weekend.

Everyone agrees?

Galzria

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Re: Mage Knight III (Signups closed, Pre-Game)
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2013, 10:34:57 am »

Sounds good.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

theorel

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Re: Mage Knight III (Signups closed, Pre-Game)
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2013, 11:46:32 am »

Sounds good to me :)
Reading Expansion Rules now...note: I'll be mostly out Friday through Sunday at least.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 11:55:45 am by theorel »
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popsofctown

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Re: Mage Knight III (Signups closed, Pre-Game)
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2013, 11:22:08 am »

Sounds good.  Didn't know we'd have a new player, so those are good conditions there.
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popsofctown

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Re: Mage Knight III (Signups closed, Pre-Game)
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2013, 11:48:03 am »

They nerfed Tovak for being OP.  I knew it!
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Tables

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Re: Mage Knight III (Signups closed, Pre-Game)
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2013, 05:19:26 pm »

I'm okay with this, might take me some time before I read the rules though.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Qvist

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Re: Mage Knight III (Signups closed, Pre-Game)
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2013, 05:44:00 pm »

I'm in preparation phase for this.
The units of the expansion are a bit wordy (or if you will - unnecessary complicated). Not sure yet how to make it clear in the spreadsheet.
Only have to change this and add the new cards to the sheet. But I'm not sure when I can start this as I'm currently pretty busy.

Qvist

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Re: Mage Knight III (Signups closed, Pre-Game)
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2013, 09:19:33 am »

Ok, I'm close to ready. Should I start a new thread for it? Or should we just go ahead and choose Heroes?

Edit: Also, here is the modified spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjovnuYeeSkidC0zaWd3cW1uc0VKN01SVkM0SC1ZX3c&usp=sharing
I tried to include all info so that you basically don't need to look into the rules anymore. If you feel anything should be added or anything is unclear, tell me.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 09:25:49 am by Qvist »
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theorel

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Re: Mage Knight III (Signups closed, Pre-Game)
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2013, 09:36:49 am »

Thanks QVist! That looks great.
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Qvist

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Re: Mage Knight III (Signups closed, Pre-Game)
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2013, 09:57:54 am »

Unless anybody has issues with it, I'm going to start the game right now and here.

Game starts

I randomized players:

popsofctown
theorel
Tables
Galzria

Please choose your heroes in this order.

Tables

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Re: Mage Knight III (Game starts, Heroes Selection)
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2013, 01:27:05 pm »

I looked at that sheet, saw the stats for "Arm" and "Hand" and wondered where the ones for "leg" and "foot" were before realising what was going on.

In other news, I apparently need sleep.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

popsofctown

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Re: Mage Knight III (Signups closed, Pre-Game)
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2013, 12:22:59 am »

Ok, I'm close to ready. Should I start a new thread for it? Or should we just go ahead and choose Heroes?

Edit: Also, here is the modified spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjovnuYeeSkidC0zaWd3cW1uc0VKN01SVkM0SC1ZX3c&usp=sharing
I tried to include all info so that you basically don't need to look into the rules anymore. If you feel anything should be added or anything is unclear, tell me.

Your Wolfhawk's skills are identical to Arytheas's.
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popsofctown

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Re: Mage Knight III (Game starts, Heroes Selection)
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2013, 12:26:13 am »

Also, in the expansion rules I remembered it was mentioned that Tovak's blocking capability got nerfed, and I assumed that was Cold Toughness.  The Cold Toughness you listed has identical text.  Did it really not change?
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popsofctown

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Re: Mage Knight III (Game starts, Heroes Selection)
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2013, 12:29:58 am »

If it turns out that Cold Toughness really didn't get nerfed, I'm gonna play Tovak. 
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Qvist

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Re: Mage Knight III (Game starts, Heroes Selection)
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2013, 04:50:38 am »

I obviously missed some changed cards. I can only rely on Internet sources as I don't have an actual copy, so there might still be errors.
Cold Toughness was indeed tweaked, so go ahead and choose again if you want, pops.

Also, Wolfhawk's skills are now correct.

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Re: Mage Knight III (Game starts, Heroes Selection)
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2013, 06:40:33 pm »

I choose Arytheas.
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Tables

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Re: Mage Knight III (Game starts, Heroes Selection)
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2013, 07:14:22 pm »

I'll need some time for when I'm free to go over the base rules and expansion... maybe Friday. Sorry for delays.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

theorel

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Re: Mage Knight III (Game starts, Heroes Selection)
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2013, 09:23:45 pm »

I'll try the new guy...so, Wolfhawk
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