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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)  (Read 86495 times)

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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #75 on: April 16, 2013, 05:20:35 pm »
+3

I completely agree with WW.

Certainly Count's best case is going to be altVP stuff like Duke and Silk Roads, but even then, I can think of a lot of less expensive cards that also rock in those situations (like Horse Traders, Feast, Ironworks, Beggar...).

Everyone needs to check themselves when the say "X is a pretty solid card." Okay, what does that mean? Is it better than Market? I don't think Count is, on average, a better card than Market. I'm pretty confident it's worse. Is Market a "pretty solid card?" If Market isn't, than Count isn't. Does Market crack the top 50%? I don't know if it does. There are a lot of awesome cards taking up like the first 20 slots, and then there are a lot of good cards that used to be great cards getting pushed out. Laboratory was once considered the second best $5 card! Well, by theory, who was wrong there to begin with, but you know, subsequent expansions introduced a whole bunch of cards that displaced Laboratory, either directly (like Hunting Party) or indirectly (like good draw cards that, when coupled with villages, make for a better engine than a bunch of Labs). Now, is Laboratory "a pretty solid card?" Yeah, I think it passes that test. Does Count? I really don't think so.
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SCSN

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #76 on: April 16, 2013, 05:29:52 pm »
0

I'm with Rob and WW. I've bought Count alot just because I like buying lots of new stuff, but it has resulted in buyer's remorse more than once.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #77 on: April 16, 2013, 06:36:57 pm »
0

Count in the top 20? Definitely not. But I've seen it (and used it) enough to think it's a decent card. Let's not go crazy, because it's no Mountebank, but I do think it's comparable to Market.
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ftl

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #78 on: April 16, 2013, 06:38:39 pm »
0

I think count is pretty good just because it's a multi-card trasher that retains some usability later.

The best case for count is I think in an engine game where it's the only good trasher around, and I don't think that's particularly rare. In that case, count really is sort of dominatingly good, providing both the trashing and money and some vp later. (Comparing to market, I think it's much more common for market to have some sort of reasonable substitute on the board, some other source of +buy. I think it's definitely above market.)
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #79 on: April 16, 2013, 06:41:46 pm »
0

Count in the top 20? Definitely not. But I've seen it (and used it) enough to think it's a decent card. Let's not go crazy, because it's no Mountebank, but I do think it's comparable to Market.

There are only 61 $5 cards though. So it's automatically bottom 50% unless it cracks the Top 30. Should a card in the bottom 50% get the designation "pretty solid?" Probably not unless it's real close to the #30 mark.

And I think you will buy Market far more often than Count. They may have similarly negligible effects on your deck most of the time. Perhaps Count shines more often than Market? I'm not sure it does. Market is sometimes super important with Throne or King or Highway or Quarry. And again, you buy it way more frequently than count. So Market wins convincingly, in my estimation.
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chwhite

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #80 on: April 16, 2013, 06:42:53 pm »
+1

By far the largest problem with this list is that Outpost is criminally underrated.  Yes, it is a dead card more than half the time.  But it is so crushingly good in many engine games- yes, I would like straight-up double turns in my Minion or Wharf or Scrying Pool or [fill in the powerful card here] engine deck.  And it even has some unexpected corner-case utility as a pseudo-+Buy in Gardens slogs.

Contraband is a bit lower than it should be, too.  Yeah, it mostly sucks, but I really like it as a setup card for decks built on cheap engine parts.  It probably belongs in this tier, but I'd place it a good deal higher within the tier.

Royal Seal is definitely the card that should take Outpost's place, it's pretty unimpressive even when you want to buy it.  I'd be open to throwing Mandarin or maybe the worst Dark Ages card (which I still really have nothing to say about) down here as well.  Explorer still seems a little high; I don't hate it as much as I used to, but it still only seems strong in alt-VP matches to me, and $5 is pricey for that.

As much as I hate to admit it, y'all are probably right that Harvest really unimpressively is near the bottom.  I'd probably put Counting House and Stash behind it, still.

I've got nothing intelligent to say about any of the Dark Ages cards.

EDIT: Actually, I totally dominated multiple IRL games last weekend almost wholly due to deft use of Counting House (first one was, obviously, a Mountebank game, second one was a weird slog with Sea Hag, Ghost Ship, and Native Village where Counting House let me buy the game's only Province). 

Yeah, I feel pretty confident saying that Stash is the worst $5 card, actually.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 06:45:39 pm by chwhite »
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #81 on: April 16, 2013, 06:43:03 pm »
0

I think count is pretty good just because it's a multi-card trasher that retains some usability later.

Again, this "pretty good" distinction. What does that mean? Embasy is pretty good. Count is at best below average.
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Eevee

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #82 on: April 16, 2013, 06:44:41 pm »
0

I think count is pretty good just because it's a multi-card trasher that retains some usability later.

Again, this "pretty good" distinction. What does that mean? Embasy is pretty good. Count is at best below average.
Embassy is ( at least was, before DA ) a crushingly awesome BM-strategy to the extent of boringness. Much better than "pretty good".

Edit: Other than that, +1 Robz.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #83 on: April 16, 2013, 06:49:17 pm »
0

Count in the top 20? Definitely not. But I've seen it (and used it) enough to think it's a decent card. Let's not go crazy, because it's no Mountebank, but I do think it's comparable to Market.

There are only 61 $5 cards though. So it's automatically bottom 50% unless it cracks the Top 30. Should a card in the bottom 50% get the designation "pretty solid?" Probably not unless it's real close to the #30 mark.

And I think you will buy Market far more often than Count. They may have similarly negligible effects on your deck most of the time. Perhaps Count shines more often than Market? I'm not sure it does. Market is sometimes super important with Throne or King or Highway or Quarry. And again, you buy it way more frequently than count. So Market wins convincingly, in my estimation.

Everything is good with Throne and King :P

I think I buy them in equal amounts. Not every board has Quarry or Highway or good engines, so Count can be good on those boards while Market will be good on the other ones. And I never said it was solid. Just that it can be decent.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #84 on: April 16, 2013, 06:56:28 pm »
+2

Count in the top 20? Definitely not. But I've seen it (and used it) enough to think it's a decent card. Let's not go crazy, because it's no Mountebank, but I do think it's comparable to Market.

There are only 61 $5 cards though. So it's automatically bottom 50% unless it cracks the Top 30. Should a card in the bottom 50% get the designation "pretty solid?" Probably not unless it's real close to the #30 mark.

And I think you will buy Market far more often than Count. They may have similarly negligible effects on your deck most of the time. Perhaps Count shines more often than Market? I'm not sure it does. Market is sometimes super important with Throne or King or Highway or Quarry. And again, you buy it way more frequently than count. So Market wins convincingly, in my estimation.

Everything is good with Throne and King :P
Count isn't :P

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #85 on: April 16, 2013, 07:04:33 pm »
0

I think count is pretty good just because it's a multi-card trasher that retains some usability later.
A la Trading Post, which is pretty bad?

Quote
The best case for count is I think in an engine game where it's the only good trasher around, and I don't think that's particularly rare. In that case, count really is sort of dominatingly good, providing both the trashing and money and some vp later. (Comparing to market, I think it's much more common for market to have some sort of reasonable substitute on the board, some other source of +buy. I think it's definitely above market.)
You think that "engine games" where there's no other "good trasher around", which also have need of "money" and/or "some vp" later on are not "particularly rare", and that on such boards, "count really is sort of dominatingly good"? Really? I mean, I could probably design such a board, but it would take a good deal of work. Thing is, most boards, if you are relying on a trasher that is that slow, you either don't build an engine, or the trashing doesn't help that much, because you've got the engine in place without it - and in the latter case, there's often going to be something else that's juicier to do. Heck, that's just true in general.

ftl

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #86 on: April 16, 2013, 07:33:46 pm »
0

Ah well, you guys are better than me, I'll just believe you. I still don't really get why though :/ maybe I'm overrating how fast it trashes or something, it seems like it trashes much faster than trading post to me.

I looked up old lists and sticking count in them, it seems like it would go just a bit the middle, so maybe I don't really disagree that much, it's just that most of the $5 cards are good.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #88 on: April 17, 2013, 12:00:25 am »
+3

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7836.msg225803#msg225803

Discuss.

You didn't mention that Mystic combos with Scout! :(

I think I would rank Library higher than Council Room.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #89 on: April 17, 2013, 12:10:28 am »
0

You mention Inn's "On buy effect", this should be "on gain effect"
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #90 on: April 17, 2013, 12:16:58 am »
0

Nothing here really surprises me. Of the cards we've seen so far, the highest one I had was Inn at #40. The only cards I have that still haven't come up are: City (in 2p, it's so rarely much good, maybe I should have put it a little higher, eh), Counterfeit (new card syndrome, this should definitely be about 10-15 ranks higher, I'd say. It's no power card, but it's a decent copper trasher and slingshot effect), and Haggler (this was only barely down here, and I think I should probably have put it a fair bit higher - it's not great all that often, but when it is, it can be incredible).
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #91 on: April 17, 2013, 12:21:31 am »
0

Pretty good second part. We've already talked about how Royal Seal belongs much lower, so there's that. I think Mystic is easily better than Graverobber and Rogue, but maybe when I play with them more I will change my mind.

Everything else is just quibbling, but I would probably put Inn ahead of Library and Council Room. Part of the problem of Library/Council Room is that other cards can do what they do (Watchtower and Menagerie for Library, and like any draw card, but especially Governor and Margrave, for Council Room) while being less expensive or prohibitive. Inn's on-gain shuffle feature is truly unique, and extremely useful.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #92 on: April 17, 2013, 12:21:59 am »
0

You mention Inn's "On buy effect", this should be "on gain effect"

 :-[

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7836.msg225803#msg225803

Discuss.

You didn't mention that Mystic combos with Scout! :(

I think I would rank Library higher than Council Room.

Ha, I wondered how long it would take that someone would comment on that. Not very long, obiviously.
But I left Scout out intentionally. I still can't see any great Scout/Mystic engine.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 12:25:39 am by Qvist »
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #93 on: April 17, 2013, 12:28:45 am »
0

Pretty good second part. We've already talked about how Royal Seal belongs much lower, so there's that. I think Mystic is easily better than Graverobber and Rogue, but maybe when I play with them more I will change my mind.

Everything else is just quibbling, but I would probably put Inn ahead of Library and Council Room. Part of the problem of Library/Council Room is that other cards can do what they do (Watchtower and Menagerie for Library, and like any draw card, but especially Governor and Margrave, for Council Room) while being less expensive or prohibitive. Inn's on-gain shuffle feature is truly unique, and extremely useful.

I think this is pretty interesting.  What do you value more -- the chance to draw a card, or the ability to topdeck cards you buy?  That's essentially the difference between Royal Seal and Mystic.  Mystic is pretty much a Silver+.  I like Mystic a lot, but I'm not sure it's actually that much better than Royal Seal.

Rogue is probably too high for me.  And I think I would rank Mint higher?  I probably overestimate it though.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #94 on: April 17, 2013, 12:34:01 am »
+6

I like to comment on this list, too. Graverobber is no great card, but it's much better than Rogue, in my opinion. In my experience Rogue is such a weak card and should belong maybe in the bottom 5, but at least in the bottom 10. I'm not sure if Graverobber is properly ranked, but I guess it's alright where it is.

werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #95 on: April 17, 2013, 12:42:24 am »
0

I like to comment on this list, too. Graverobber is no great card, but it's much better than Rogue, in my opinion. In my experience Rogue is such a weak card and should belong maybe in the bottom 5, but at least in the bottom 10. I'm not sure if Graverobber is properly ranked, but I guess it's alright where it is.

In Rats games, Rogue is useless.  It's so neutered in order to not be overpowered, that it's just not all that good.  The +$2 does help, though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #96 on: April 17, 2013, 12:45:25 am »
0

In my experience Rogue is such a weak card and should belong maybe in the bottom 5, but at least in the bottom 10.

The lack of option really kills Rogue. You cannot choose whether to attack or to gain card. And when you are forced to gain a card, it is common that you are forced to gain a particular card (the only card costing 3-6 in the trash). This is really bad.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #97 on: April 17, 2013, 12:50:28 am »
0

Yeah, I would definitely put Rogue below Graverobber, particularly after some games I played today which illustrated all Rogue's weak points. In one, my opponent couldn't trash my Alchemists with it and just had to play two on a turn to maybe steal a card. In the next, we both used Rogue and a couple of times I just gained what he had trashed, making it a rather silly card.

Graverobber on the other hand I've had quite a bit of fun with, and I think it's quite good. It definitely belongs above Rogue, and I'd probably put Rogue below Mystic as well.
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math

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #98 on: April 17, 2013, 01:37:04 am »
0

I agree with what other people have been saying - that Rouge is definitely worse than Graverobber.  I haven't played very much with either, but the one time I bought Rouge I regretted it.  As has been pointed out, the lack of a choice makes it just a bad card in general.

I think Mystic is underrated, but maybe I'm just overrating it.  I would put it above Graverobber, but that's probably just because I don't have much experience with Graverobber.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #99 on: April 17, 2013, 02:17:16 am »
+2

I'm really surprised by Mystic being this low, and by Count and Pillage not being on the list. I think Mystic > Graverobber > Pillage > Count > Rogue. Mystic combos decently with itself and well with a couple of other DA cards (Vagrant, Ironmonger, Wandering Minstrel, Scavenger) and can again be decent with stuff like Mandarin, Courtyard, Watchtower and Pearl Diver, it slightly mitigates an opponent's Spy/Scrying Pool/Ghost Ship attack, and makes good use of plain old strategic guessing and keeping proper track of your deck.

Not saying it's great, but it's definitely better than quite a few cards higher on the list, and I have the suspicion it ended here mostly because people (including me at times) are too lazy to put it to good use.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 02:18:50 am by SheCantSayNo »
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