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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)  (Read 72241 times)

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DrFlux

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2013, 01:28:01 pm »
0

I think I've played the DA presets too much in real life. It makes me feel like rats are a very good card, but I think its just because the presets put it with good combos like apprentice and remodel.

Also its awesome against Knights or other trashers.

But yeah, this is probably biased by the presets. Also by the fact that it is a fun card. It is almost useless without a trash for benefit card. I'd definitely put pirate ship lower than it, but that's more a function of pirate ship...
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Donald X.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2013, 01:35:28 pm »
+10

So far, five people have complained that Pirate Ship is way overrated.  I checked all their Council Room pages and none of them really play anything other than two player.

Just sayin' :)
Speaking as someone who has played thousands of 3- and 4-player games, Pirate Ship is overrated.
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CopperrCopper

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2013, 01:50:10 pm »
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The smack down has been laid.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2013, 03:02:04 pm »
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Lastly, why is Coppersmith on here?  I'll grant it's awful if you are trashing all your coppers, but a lot of boards have engine potential, but without trashing.  Any deck where you can draw your deck and don't trash your opening coppers, it is a terminal +$7!  What decks are these?  Good Tac decks, Wharf decks, any board with KC, Village-Torturer, etc.  I think it should be a minimum of 10 spots higher.

I think cards that are good for these kinds of decks are generally underrated. I feel like people tend to think of 2 kinds of strategies:
1. Only 1-2 different actions and lots of money
2. Games where you trash everything and have nothing but actions and maybe Gold.

But there's a lot of stuff in between where Coppersmith or Shanty Town or Workshop or Develop are good cards.

The problem I have with Coppersmith is that it's a kind of self-nombo.  If you play it with only one Copper, it's obviously awful.  If you play it with two Copper, then it's a terminal silver, which is still pretty bad.  If you play it with three copper, then it's a terminal gold, now I'm interested.  But you have to ask yourself how often will you be able to play it with three or more copper?  You only start with seven copper and on most boards you don't buy any more, so even if there is no trashing, three copper is usually half your deck.  So to make Coppersmith something other than bad, you need to reliably draw half your deck each turn whilst still having an action spare.  How often can you reliably do this in games where you won't be trashing any of your copper?

Of course, I'm not saying it's useless.  There will be boards where you will be buying Copper or gaining them in other ways.  And there will be games where you 'go off' with a large deck in one mega-turn using something like Apprentice or Madman and then use Coppersmith as a finisher.  Great, no problem with that.  So at the end of the day you're looking at a card that is usually useless, but on the right board can be good.  Cards like that deserve to be towards the bottom of the list, because nearly every card can be good on the right board.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2013, 03:13:41 pm »
+2

Lastly, why is Coppersmith on here?  I'll grant it's awful if you are trashing all your coppers, but a lot of boards have engine potential, but without trashing.  Any deck where you can draw your deck and don't trash your opening coppers, it is a terminal +$7!  What decks are these?  Good Tac decks, Wharf decks, any board with KC, Village-Torturer, etc.  I think it should be a minimum of 10 spots higher.

I think cards that are good for these kinds of decks are generally underrated. I feel like people tend to think of 2 kinds of strategies:
1. Only 1-2 different actions and lots of money
2. Games where you trash everything and have nothing but actions and maybe Gold.

But there's a lot of stuff in between where Coppersmith or Shanty Town or Workshop or Develop are good cards.

The problem I have with Coppersmith is that it's a kind of self-nombo.  If you play it with only one Copper, it's obviously awful.  If you play it with two Copper, then it's a terminal silver, which is still pretty bad.  If you play it with three copper, then it's a terminal gold, now I'm interested.  But you have to ask yourself how often will you be able to play it with three or more copper?  You only start with seven copper and on most boards you don't buy any more, so even if there is no trashing, three copper is usually half your deck.  So to make Coppersmith something other than bad, you need to reliably draw half your deck each turn whilst still having an action spare.  How often can you reliably do this in games where you won't be trashing any of your copper?
I think his point is that this happens a lot more often than people think (or you can re-buy copper). And he's right.

Quote
Of course, I'm not saying it's useless.  There will be boards where you will be buying Copper or gaining them in other ways.  And there will be games where you 'go off' with a large deck in one mega-turn using something like Apprentice or Madman and then use Coppersmith as a finisher.  Great, no problem with that.  So at the end of the day you're looking at a card that is usually useless, but on the right board can be good.  Cards like that deserve to be towards the bottom of the list, because nearly every card can be good on the right board.
Well, towards the bottom perhaps, but Coppersmith is actually great in the right situations, whereas there's several other cards here that are only good, and some which max out at 'usable' (I'm looking at scout here)

dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #55 on: January 25, 2013, 03:17:14 pm »
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Nomad Camp. Woodcutter is rated as the second-worst $3 card, yet somehow Nomad Camp, which is basically the same card is not in the bottom TEN $4 cards? I don't get it. You get the on-gain effect one time, which I guess is useful when you're trying to mass $2 cards asap (i.e. Fool's Gold), and can maybe do cute things with gain-then-draw. But a lot of the time I'd actually rather NOT have the on-buy effect, since when you add your +buy card to an engine, you don't want it in your starting 5 cards.

Yeah, actually, this is puzzling to me, too. Nomad Camp seems so shiny! But it's really just Woodcutter. Not sure why it appears that way to me.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #56 on: January 25, 2013, 03:23:32 pm »
0

So, I'm not arguing that Talisman's in the wrong spot, but does anybody besides me ever use it to accumulate Silver? I mean, let's say you're not building an engine and you have two buys and $6 to spend. It's common wisdom that one Gold is usually better than two Silvers, but is it better than four Silvers?

If I planned on predominantly buying money, I wouldn't want Talisman, though, because I'm probably playing Big Money, and Talisman can't help me with Gold and Victory cards--which are two/thirds of the components I need to purchase (Silver being the other). I can't picture a board where money dominates, but there is no better $4 cost enabler than Talisman.

Hmm, perhaps. What about playing a Wharf/BM or Council Room/BM strategy? Might it not be worth buying a Talisman in order to turn an extra Buy and an extra $3 into two Silvers?

EDIT: There is of course the fact that opening with Talisman will slow down your first Wharf/Council Room purchase.

Talisman seems to be a very good Feodum enabler.  I believe I have a video of me emptying out the Silver pile in a Feodum/Talisman game.

Re: everything else:  Rats is underranked, but not by too much.  It's not a standalone card, which definitely hurts it.  I think Pirate Ship is well-placed.  I would argue that it's better than Noble Brigand, since there isn't any tennis going on with Pirate Ship, but it's certainly not the best $4 Attack.  Bureaucrat is underranked - it's a Silver topdecker, for fuck's sake - another nice Feodum enabler.  Everything else I'd say is more or less fairly ranked.

Nomad Camp. Woodcutter is rated as the second-worst $3 card, yet somehow Nomad Camp, which is basically the same card is not in the bottom TEN $4 cards? I don't get it. You get the on-gain effect one time, which I guess is useful when you're trying to mass $2 cards asap (i.e. Fool's Gold), and can maybe do cute things with gain-then-draw. But a lot of the time I'd actually rather NOT have the on-buy effect, since when you add your +buy card to an engine, you don't want it in your starting 5 cards.

Yeah, actually, this is puzzling to me, too. Nomad Camp seems so shiny! But it's really just Woodcutter. Not sure why it appears that way to me.

I dunno what to tell you.  Woodcutter is not a bad card - there are just better cards.  And Nomad Camp allows for 4/4, 4/5 and 4/2/2 openings.  And Nomad Camp could be rather fantastic in Gardens games - once in the endgame, you know you're not going to be shuffling again, so getting that +Buy right on top of your deck is perfect.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 03:26:54 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2013, 04:12:14 pm »
+1

I dunno what to tell you.  Woodcutter is not a bad card - there are just better cards.  And Nomad Camp allows for 4/4, 4/5 and 4/2/2 openings.  And Nomad Camp could be rather fantastic in Gardens games - once in the endgame, you know you're not going to be shuffling again, so getting that +Buy right on top of your deck is perfect.

Actually, if you consider Nomad Camp to be Woodcutter after it's initial topdecking, then you're really getting 3/4, 3/5, or 3/2/2 openings (I know there are edge cases like TFB, but they're pretty safe to ignore here). Plus, the $3 you get is one of the worst in the game. Sure, there are a few combos, but nothing that great.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2013, 04:24:27 pm »
0

Nomad Camp. Woodcutter is rated as the second-worst $3 card, yet somehow Nomad Camp, which is basically the same card is not in the bottom TEN $4 cards? I don't get it. You get the on-gain effect one time, which I guess is useful when you're trying to mass $2 cards asap (i.e. Fool's Gold), and can maybe do cute things with gain-then-draw. But a lot of the time I'd actually rather NOT have the on-buy effect, since when you add your +buy card to an engine, you don't want it in your starting 5 cards.

Yeah, actually, this is puzzling to me, too. Nomad Camp seems so shiny! But it's really just Woodcutter. Not sure why it appears that way to me.

I dunno what to tell you.  Woodcutter is not a bad card - there are just better cards.  And Nomad Camp allows for 4/4, 4/5 and 4/2/2 openings.  And Nomad Camp could be rather fantastic in Gardens games - once in the endgame, you know you're not going to be shuffling again, so getting that +Buy right on top of your deck is perfect.

I guess what I'm asking is: How many kingdoms are there where you should go for Nomad Camp, but you shouldn't go for Woodcutter if it was there instead? I'm betting it's not very many.
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #59 on: January 25, 2013, 04:54:32 pm »
0

Nomad Camp. Woodcutter is rated as the second-worst $3 card, yet somehow Nomad Camp, which is basically the same card is not in the bottom TEN $4 cards? I don't get it. You get the on-gain effect one time, which I guess is useful when you're trying to mass $2 cards asap (i.e. Fool's Gold), and can maybe do cute things with gain-then-draw. But a lot of the time I'd actually rather NOT have the on-buy effect, since when you add your +buy card to an engine, you don't want it in your starting 5 cards.

Yeah, actually, this is puzzling to me, too. Nomad Camp seems so shiny! But it's really just Woodcutter. Not sure why it appears that way to me.

I dunno what to tell you.  Woodcutter is not a bad card - there are just better cards.  And Nomad Camp allows for 4/4, 4/5 and 4/2/2 openings.  And Nomad Camp could be rather fantastic in Gardens games - once in the endgame, you know you're not going to be shuffling again, so getting that +Buy right on top of your deck is perfect.

I guess what I'm asking is: How many kingdoms are there where you should go for Nomad Camp, but you shouldn't go for Woodcutter if it was there instead? I'm betting it's not very many.

I'd say it's a fair amount of the time. Maybe not in an most engines, but in a decks where it takes you several turns to reach a reshuffle, yeah.

You can buy Nomad camp early on for use as a Woodcutter, and that's fine. But one of the things you can do with Nomad Camp that you can't do with Woodcutter is to buy it opportunistically. If you're in full-on greening mode and you're trying to delay reshuffles, Nomad Camp can be useful. If I've spent most of the shuffle buying Victory cards and I've got $4 this hand, I'm almost certainly going to want a Nomad Camp over an Estate.

There are also niche uses, of course. If I just used Develop to put a Silver and a Mystic on my deck (for example), buying a Nomad Camp gives me an even better shot at a Province next turn.
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chwhite

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2013, 07:29:20 pm »
+1

This... is not a particularly good list.  I mean, a lot of these cards do belong around here, but the order is pretty much all wrong.

I continue to think Scout is probably a better card than Thief; granted 2p bias plays a part, but I've never seen Thief work particularly well in my 3 or 4 player games either.  Glad I've convinced Robz of its utility in Scrying Pool games at least (and using Scout as an SP helper is definitely my favorite use of the card).

Coppersmith is scandalously low.  It is very often useless, but just that good in low-trash engine games where it's frequently up to $7 cash in the endgame.  It absolutely deserves to be above most of these cards.  I was considering a Coppersmith article at some point and on the off-chance I get back into posting more it may yet happen.

Spy is also way too low; yeah, it's on the weak end, but it's a better lubricant than you think in engine decks with mediocre draw (cantrip engines like Conspirator and Peddler come to mind in particular).  It gets slagged on so much because it basically requires engine to be good, and it's in base, which is a bad setup for it, and DXV doesn't like the concept so much anymore.  And, sure, it's mediocre.  But so many of the bad $4s, like Scout and Thief and Pirate Ship and Treasure Map, are just so actively bad, that a card that is basically the $4 price point equivalent of Pearl Diver (cantrip that might help with future draw) is obviously not Bottom 5 in my mind.  I think people would think much more highly of it if Spy was an Intrigue card, because there are some real synergies there, and it would be more on-theme.

Oh, yeah, Pirate Ship and Treasure Map.  They blow chunks.  Talisman is also bad, but the writeup seems to miss the best aspect of Talisman, which is that you can use it to soak up the Peddler stack.

Navigator deserves better, and the B-crat probably does as well.  I'd put Feast down here for sure at least.  I'm undecided on Nomad Camp, but do think it deserves a relatively better rank than Woodcutter- not because the top-decking is so good, but because the rest of the bad $4s are much worse than the bad $3s.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 07:31:05 pm by chwhite »
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2013, 09:28:41 pm »
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I disagree with many of your sentiments, chwhite, though not very strongly. I think it's disingenuous to say that Pirate Ship and Treasure Map "blow chunks" and Coppersmith doesn't when there's roughly the same percentage of kingdoms where each of them are fairly excellent, but terrible otherwise. In engine games, TM is basically spending $8 to get $24 in value. PS strongly indicates engine when the alternate option is money. Thief too, though it's helps your deck to a much smaller degree relative to PS, and it's good in slogs. Compared to being worth $7 in a small subset of kingdoms, these other bad $4 cards seem pretty competitive with Coppersmith...
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heron

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2013, 09:43:15 pm »
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The only card I'd say is out of place by a lot is bureaucrat. I'm pretty sure I ranked it like seven spots ahead.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2013, 02:09:15 am »
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The card I'm surprised not to see down here is Armory. It's like Talisman: How many $4 and under cards do you want, and how many do you really want on top of deck? Workshop and Ironwork's best use is in Gardens/Silk Road games, and Armory is actually worse there. That means it has to really pick up the slack in other cases you want a cheap card gainer - when you want lots of cheap components and the like, and I'm still not convinced it's much better than IW in those cases.

WHAT?
Armory is by far the best gainer for engines. Top-deck an additional village? Or whatever you need at the time to kickstart your engine?
Add highway or similar cards and it gets awesome - then throw in Kings Court and it just gets crazy.
I love the endless turns where you just keep top-decking additional Kings Courts and Armories and drawers. *drool*
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #64 on: January 26, 2013, 02:53:36 am »
+5

Armory is nice and all, and I like its top-decking ability, but it just doesn't compete with IW's flexibility and the fact that it is most often non-terminal. But, you are right, there is an advantage to being able to top-deck the cards you just gained and play them on the same turn. Still, IW is better.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2013, 04:58:17 am »
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WHAT?
Armory is by far the best gainer for engines. Top-deck an additional village? Or whatever you need at the time to kickstart your engine?
Add highway or similar cards and it gets awesome - then throw in Kings Court and it just gets crazy.
I love the endless turns where you just keep top-decking additional Kings Courts and Armories and drawers. *drool*
This. It's like a Band of Misfits for the next turn, except it costs the action and the card twice (which is pretty bad) and it gains you the card permanently (which is pretty good).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2013, 02:19:42 pm »
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Nomad Camp. Woodcutter is rated as the second-worst $3 card, yet somehow Nomad Camp, which is basically the same card is not in the bottom TEN $4 cards? I don't get it. You get the on-gain effect one time, which I guess is useful when you're trying to mass $2 cards asap (i.e. Fool's Gold), and can maybe do cute things with gain-then-draw. But a lot of the time I'd actually rather NOT have the on-buy effect, since when you add your +buy card to an engine, you don't want it in your starting 5 cards.

Yeah, actually, this is puzzling to me, too. Nomad Camp seems so shiny! But it's really just Woodcutter. Not sure why it appears that way to me.

I think this is just an artifact of ranking cards according to cost.  Nomad Camp is at least as bad as Woodcutter, but it so happens that there are more bad $4 cards than there are bad $3 cards, so Nomad Camp ends up further from the bottom.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #67 on: January 27, 2013, 03:10:09 pm »
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Oh, let's start a ranking vs rating debate.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2013, 06:23:29 pm »
+1

Any word on when we'll see the rest of the list?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2013, 09:44:46 am »
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Having kinda thought about it a little, I think the real reason Nomad Camp is that much better than Woodcutter despite being the same is the opening 4 turns. Woodcutter is really bad early most of the time, because extra buy just isn't helpful when you're hitting $3-6. Nomad Camp's top decking lets you get a sudden early boost in economy, and hopefully get to key $5's and $6's early. There's the obvious case of opening 4/3, where Nomad Camp gives you a 40% chance of getting to $5 on turn 4. But also hitting $4 on turn 3, Nomad Camp significantly raises the chances of getting $5 or $6 next turn (I can't be bothered to do the maths on it though). I joked earlier about Feast being awesome for getting to $5, but honestly, getting to $5's and $6's is pretty significant, and Nomad Camp helps you do it quickly while staying around to be useful.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #70 on: January 28, 2013, 09:52:11 am »
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Any word on when we'll see the rest of the list?

Part II comes probably tomorrow.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #71 on: January 28, 2013, 01:01:37 pm »
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Oh, let's start a ranking vs rating debate.

It'll be like "Warehouse means that Cellar sucks" 2.0.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #72 on: January 28, 2013, 01:15:15 pm »
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Oh, let's start a ranking vs rating debate.

It'll be like "Warehouse means that Cellar sucks" 2.0.

Please not that again.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #73 on: January 28, 2013, 02:06:40 pm »
0

Yeah, we already determined that it's true before.

[/trolling]
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #74 on: January 28, 2013, 03:02:16 pm »
0

You can buy Nomad camp early on for use as a Woodcutter, and that's fine. But one of the things you can do with Nomad Camp that you can't do with Woodcutter is to buy it opportunistically. If you're in full-on greening mode and you're trying to delay reshuffles, Nomad Camp can be useful. If I've spent most of the shuffle buying Victory cards and I've got $4 this hand, I'm almost certainly going to want a Nomad Camp over an Estate.

Problem here is that buying a Nomad Camp will only cause a delay in the shuffle about 1/5 of the time...
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