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Qvist

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« on: January 02, 2013, 03:30:51 pm »
+12

Here's the video link:


For reference, if anybody is wondering: I defined lower deviation as "better" because it means "more agreement" and for difference in percentage I use percentage points (pp). I also removed the mode as it made less sense with percentage values now.

The Best $1-$2 Cards (Part 1/2)
Link to the win rates on Councilroom
Link 2 to the win rates on Councilroom

#20 Secret Chamber (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 9.2% ▲1.8pp / Median: 5.3% ▼1.4pp / Standard Deviation: 13.1% ▼2.4pp
Highest Value(s): 55.6% (1x), 53.3% (1x), 47.4% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (23x)

Secret Chamber is the worst $2 card again. Nearly the half of all lists ranked it on the last place. But it lost consensus; over 2.4 percentage points worse than last time. This resulted in being 1.8pp better than last time.

The action part seems not so bad. You can discard cards for money and in decks with many victory cards or curses it's guaranteed $4. But first: What do you want to buy with $4? As a opener it's bad, because mostly you want to get to $5 and later in the game you need $5 too to get at least a Duchy. So, basically it's a very bad Vault and you better buy a Silver. But there are rare cases, especially you can use it when you need virtual money like in Tactician turns, or you draw your whole deck with Scrying Pools discard all action cards with Secret Chamber for money just to draw them again, or when you want to buy Grand Markets. It's reaction part is really bad. It has nearly no effect against the best attacks: Cursers and Handsize-Reducers, but you can use it against cards that mess up the top of your deck or trash cards from your deck, like Swindler, Pirate Ship or Knights. But most of them (like Thief) are already bad. Why buy a reaction card against Thief? Yes, it's nice against Minion, but that's all.
#19 Duchess (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 11.9% ▲1.0pp / Median: 6.7% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 11.4% ▼1.1pp
Highest Value(s): 57.9% (1x), 26.7% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (14x)

Duchess is second last, the same as last year. About one fourth rated it last. Similar to Secret Chamber it lost a little bit of consensus (and still has the third least), but has a better rating than last year.

It's a terminal silver with a spy-effect that has even a benefit for your opponents. Yeah, it's even so bad that it needs a clause to get it for free when you buy a Duchy.
And mostly that are the only cases you want a Duchess. Rarely you want to spend $2 to buy one. Once in a while you want it for free, especially when you are trying to make a "green card rush" with Duke or Silk Road and want to maintain the buying power and emptying the third pile as fast as possible. Getting it for free is probably the only reason that it isn't ranked last. That means: A Duchess for free is even better than a Secret Chamber for $2.
#18 Pearl Diver (Seaside) Weighted Average: 13.3% ▼4.2pp / Median: 10.5% ▼2.8pp / Standard Deviation: 11.9% ▲1.3pp
Highest Value(s): 47.4% (1x), 40.0% (1x), 36.8% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (10x)

Pearl Diver lost a lot of percentage points, but is still third last. It was voted last 10 times and even gained consensus.

Pearl Diver mostly don't hurt in your deck as it is a cantrip. So, if you got $2 early and you don't want to buy an Estate, you can buy a Pearl Diver. Buying too much Duchesses or Secret Chambers hurts much more than too many Pearl Divers. But the benefit of Pearl Diver is lower than those cards. It's only use is to minimize draw luck a little bit and to let cards shine which interact with the top card of your deck (Native Village comes into my mind). Since Cornucopia it might got a little boost as it can add more diversity into your deck and cards like Menagerie, Fairgrounds, Horn of Plenty can profit from it. It can also be essential for a Conspirator chain, but Pearl Diver never really shines, it only hurts less.
#17 Herbalist (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 20.8% ▲1.1pp / Median: 20.5% ▲0.5pp / Standard Deviation: 12.7% ▼1.4pp
Highest Value(s): 57.9% (1x), 52.6% (1x), 42.1% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (3x)

After the last three cards, there is now the first bigger gap in this list. Herbalist is clearly better than the last 3 cards. So it's fourth last, same as last time. It has 2 above average votes and 3 last places.

Herbalist is a terminal copper. How bad is that! So, mostly it hurts. But "scheming" your treasures is really nice. In the beginning you can use your newly bought Gold or even Platinum twice if you have the luck to draw it with Herbalist. And even putting back a Silver is not so bad in the beginning. But especially if you're going for Potion (because of that it's in Alchemy) you can use it twice early on. The most important combo might be Alchemist+Herbalist. And - mostly forgotten - it's one of three $2 cards that gives the important +Buy and it's the only one which gives the +Buy without taking a disadvantage (either discarding one card or forfeiting an option). The +Buy and putting back Treasure cards makes Herbalist + Philosopher's Stone a very powerful combo. But otherwise this card is mostly not worth buying.
#16 Moat (Base) Weighted Average: 23.9% ▼0.1pp / Median: 21.1% ▼2.2pp / Standard Deviation: 17.9% ▼2.3pp
Highest Value(s): 77.8% (1x), 73.7% (1x), 60.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 5.3% (4x), 0% (2x)

Moat has the fourth highest deviation mainly because it has 7 above average votes, but on the other hand 2 last places. The last year it was 5th last too.

Moat is very situational. It highly depends on the cards on the board and - more important - on the number of players. If there's Mountebank in the supply and you're playing a 4-player-game, Moat is generally a must-buy. It can prevent getting 3 coppers and 3 curses in one turn. But if you're playing a 2-player game, buying Moat is mostly superfluous. Buying a trasher more against Cursers or Library/Watchtower/Menagerie against hand-size-reducing is mostly the better alternative. Even worse, if there's no attack card on the board, +2 cards with no other benefit is so weak, because that means a raw benefit of +1 card. Maybe only if your going for Big Money with bad other cards and you're getting unlucky and hit $2 early, this might be worth considering. As most players play 2-player games here, it got last places.
#15 Vagrant (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 26.7% / Median: 21.1% / Standard Deviation: 16.1%
Highest Value(s): 78.9% (1x), 57.9% (1x), 52.6% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 5.3% (3x), 0% (1x)

Here is the first new Dark Ages card, it's Vagrant. It has only one big outlier and only 3 votes above average, so most agree that's in general no really good $2 card.

Vagrant is the new Scout. It has the advantage over Scout that it is at least a cantrip, so it never hurts as long as you don't draw it dead. Also it can put Shelters, Ruins and Curses in hand while Scout can't. But on the other hand, it's at best only a Laboratory where one of the two cards is dead anyway. You basically just have a chance to make your next hand better. So, in essence it's similar to Pearl Diver, a nice card for engines if you have spare buys which will occasionally help you but is never a real Power House. It can only shine in heavy Curse/Ruins games where you have a lot of $2 hands anyway and in situations where you want those cards in hand, especially dual-type Victory cards like Great Hall, Nobles and Harem. It could also work as a defense against Ghost Ship.
#14 Beggar (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 34.8% / Median: 31.6% / Standard Deviation: 19.8%
Highest Value(s): 89.5% (1x), 73.7% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 10.5% (5x), 5.6% (1x), 0% (1x)

Now we make the next bigger gap of over 8pp and there's already the next Dark Ages card. It has the highest deviation in this list as it got 10 above average votes, it was even voted at #3 once.

As gaining Coppers is generally bad, this card is very situational as the high deviation suggests. Beggar/Gardens is the new power combo. With Beggar you can green very early and are still likely to hit $4 and gain 4 cards in a turn with Beggar in hand. As Copper is no bad cards for alternative Victory cards in general, it works also decent with Silk Road, Duke and Feodum (if your opponent is going to attack you a lot). Beggar also helps you to get to $5 and then Counting House might be a decent option to buy especially in slogs. It even helps you to get to $6 or $7, but of all the expensive cards Bank might be the only one worth it as Beggar + Bank gives you already $7 guaranteed. It might also work well in decks that like Coppers, like Philosopher's Stone and Apothecary. But in general the 3 Coppers really slow you down and a big disadvantage, but near the end a terminal Gold isn't that bad. The reaction part is not so strong in general and depends on the attack card. It's great against Pillage and is also nice against Jester/Swindler/Saboteur/Knights as they don't want to hit Silver.
#13 Cellar (Base) Weighted Average: 37.0% ▲1.2pp / Median: 36.8% ▲3.5pp / Standard Deviation: 16.2% ▲0.2pp
Highest Value(s): 84.2% (1x), 73.3% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 13.3% (1x), 10.5% (1x), 5.3% (1x)

Ignoring the new Dark Ages cards it's also on the same rank as last year. It has a little higher value and is the first card which didn't get voted last. And it was voted 10 times above average.

There are many cards that take profit from bad cards like Estate or Curses. Secret Chamber fails - as mentioned earlier - by just getting $1 per card. Cellar let you discard them and get you get your good cards in hand. Of course Warehouse is better in most cases as it let you draw your cards before discarding, but Cellar can even discard more than 3 cards if you wish. If you want compare Cellar with another $2 card, Crossroads comes into your mind. Crossroads also lets you draw more cards for useless cards. But it is limited to green cards, so you get no benefit for Curses and Coppers. But you don't have to discard them and it gives you +3 Actions the first time. So it highly depends which card is better. In cursing games Cellar's great. And of course with Tunnel. The problem is often the opportunity cost; when do you want to spend your money on a $2 mediocre card?
#12 Poor House (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 46.3% / Median: 47.4% / Standard Deviation: 18.1%
Highest Value(s): 78.9% (1x), 73.7% (1x), 68.4% (5x) / Lowest Value(s): 11.1% (1x), 10.5% (1x), 5.3% (1x)

This is the only card costing $1 and it's even that high in this list. It follows Cellar after a big 9pp gap. It was also not voted last and only voted second last once. As it being new and highly board dependant it has the third highest deviation in this list.

Poor House is the new shiny $1 card that let you look different at Remake and Upgrade as you can't trash Coppers without having to gain a card anymore when it's on the board. Poor House looks really complicated, but is similar to Secret Chamber in that manner that it guarantees $4 in a 5-card hand. But it's only useful in treasure-less decks where it is a terminal $4. A hand of 2 Poor Houses and Hamlet basically guarantees a Province. So, it loves engines with virtual coins and of course it loves +buy as you can pick up multiple Poor Houses in one turn. Mint/Poor House might also be a really good opening. But in Big Money decks or Draw Engines without trashing Poor House is horrible. A 2-card hand of King's Court and Poor House even guarantees a Colony.
#11 Embargo (Seaside) Weighted Average: 48.0% ▲3.6pp / Median: 47.4% ▲0.7pp / Standard Deviation: 15.4% ▲0.8pp
Highest Value(s): 80.0% (1x), 73.7% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 21.1% (1x), 20.0% (1x), 13.3% (1x)

Embargo is also on the same rank as before - ignoring Dark Ages cards, but it has gained points and consensus. Also it's the first card with no rank below 10%.

First, it's a terminal silver. Basically that's bad. But it's a one-shot. So if you get unlucky and hit $2 early you can buy it without much thinking as it only interferes once. But Embargo can be a game-changer, especially if you and your opponent(s) are taking different strategies. And it really shines if your opponent buys a Potion and you decide not to go for Potion. Just embargo the Potion-cost card and you are turns ahead. And especially you can shut down strategies that want a lot of a single card, like Hunting Party, Alchemist or alternative victory cards. So, it's nearly never bad, but only shines situation-wise.

To the second part
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 02:24:44 am by Qvist »
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Rabid

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2013, 03:33:40 pm »
+1

Thanks for the videos, I really enjoyed the new format. :)
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Tdog

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2013, 03:52:47 pm »
0

This seems really solid. The three Dark ages cards are fairly ranked.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2013, 03:53:29 pm »
0

Yeaaaah, at least !!!

I didn't expect Vagrant to be so low, even lower than Cellar. Actually, when I saw this card, I believed it was even better than Wishing Well. And like with Scout, it's great with Island, the only 4 non-dead victory cards thus far Harem, Nobles, Island, Great Hall (which also leads to weird comboes).
I was curious about how would perform Poor house, which is, like Venture, really situational of course.
And where is the last DA card Squire ? Let's wait !

Anyway, Secret Chamber last, like the first time. It was either that or Duchess, but SC is so wiped out by Storage Room at $3 (and Chancellor by Scavenger at $4).
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Tables

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2013, 03:53:56 pm »
0

Like I predicted, my Dark Ages ratings are very all over the place. I had Poor House at 68.4%, it seems so strong on any board with actions, buys and trashing (i.e. any board with engine possibility). Beggar I had higher as well, can't really defend that one though.

Duchess is a few places too low again,  I'd definitely put it above Pearl Diver and Herbalist. Terminal silver isn't great, but it's alright usually on a 5/2 buy. Better if you're building an engine, where +actions aren't going to be an issue. Plus getting it for free with Duchies is generally good, especially with BM type decks where your terminals are pretty spread apart, as it keeps your buying power up for little downside. Of course it's never a card you'd go out of your way to buy, but, openings and endgame, it's usually worth grabbing in those situations I find.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
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ftl

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2013, 04:01:43 pm »
0

Poorhouse is the ultimate in being situational. If you can build an engine and trash all your treasures and have +buy, poorhouse is absolutely dominant. But in any game where you don't trash your treasures, it's basically worthless. I have no idea how to rank that. I thought it would be a little higher than it is there, but it seems fair.
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D Bo

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2013, 04:02:59 pm »
0

I had most of mine fairly close, within a couple. My biggest differences were actually placing Secret Chamber a bit higher than last and putting Beggar all the way at the bottom. I just can't figure out too many uses for it other than the obvious. Probably (unfairly) fell a bit in my voting due to a lack of experience with it though.
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Grujah

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2013, 04:26:13 pm »
0

Duchess needs more love. Probably cellar too. Now I need to check my ratings cuz I forgot them all :D
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2013, 04:34:35 pm »
0

No major complaints from me. As usual Moat and Embargo are a little low, but everything else is mostly reasonable. I don't really see how Moat and Herbalist could get multiple last-place votes. There are enough situations where Herbalist is the only +buy and therefore critical. And Moat, well Moat is just a pretty solid card. If it blocks a Curse, it's as good as a Witch, but for only $2.
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D Bo

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2013, 04:52:03 pm »
0

Good point about Moat - I had it at 11. I realized as I was making the list that I was not giving the Base cards any love, and when i stopped to think about it, I really had to upgrade a few of the cards on my list. Embargo is a card that I used to hate and didn't see any reason to really invest in it. Then I played greatexpectations in the BGG tourney this summer and he embargoed University after I opened Potion. I had Embargo at 8 on this ranking.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2013, 05:14:55 pm »
0

I would put Duchess higher, and Vagrant and Pearl Diver lower.

Duchess is a free terminal silver, people! Sometimes, that's all you need.

Mostly, though, this list is fine.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2013, 05:17:38 pm »
0

I'd rate Beggar higher, but maybe that's just because I love alt-VP and Counting House.

Quote
Beggar also helps you to get to $5 and then Counting House might be a decent option to buy especially in slogs.

There's no "might" about it. Beggar/Counting House is a sick combo, especially in Colony games.
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Piemaster

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2013, 05:32:54 pm »
0

Well those ten were my bottom ten too, albeit in a slightly different order.  Most notably I had Secret Chamber ranked a couple of places higher and Poor House ranked a few places lower.  PH is obviously good on some boards, but it just seems there needs to be too many pieces present to make it work well (Engine plus good trashing plus lots of spare actions plus probably +Buy).
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Grujah

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2013, 05:34:08 pm »
0

No major complaints from me. As usual Moat and Embargo are a little low, but everything else is mostly reasonable. I don't really see how Moat and Herbalist could get multiple last-place votes. There are enough situations where Herbalist is the only +buy and therefore critical. And Moat, well Moat is just a pretty solid card. If it blocks a Curse, it's as good as a Witch, but for only $2.

Seems like one of them was me!

But I agree, it was an error on my part :P PD, Vagr, and SC should be worse.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2013, 05:51:26 pm »
+2

The list seems fine except Beggar which is highly underrated at the moment. I don't remember where I ranked it, but I believe it was likely in the top 10. Beggar is the ultimate alternate VP card and helps other strategies as well. Also, it's reaction part is pretty decent.

Also, I want to thank Qvist again for putting this together. It seems like a ton of work, so thank you for all that you do. These lists are awesome.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2013, 06:02:32 pm »
+6

You're welcome.
These lists are awesome.
No, I thought they are beyond awesome.

Warrior

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2013, 06:35:07 pm »
0

Thanks for the lists. Can't wait for part 2 :)

warrior297
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2013, 08:30:03 pm »
0

No major complaints from me. As usual Moat and Embargo are a little low, but everything else is mostly reasonable. I don't really see how Moat and Herbalist could get multiple last-place votes. There are enough situations where Herbalist is the only +buy and therefore critical. And Moat, well Moat is just a pretty solid card. If it blocks a Curse, it's as good as a Witch, but for only $2.

No, moat is only a Witch if you buy your own witch and end up giving the last curse to your opponent.  Otherwise it just caused the curse to miss a reshuffle.

On to the list though.  I'm mainly disappointed not to see Pawn on here.  I get that is flexible, but man... none of the options are that good.  +1 Card / +1 Action (barring edge cases) does nothing, +1 Action / +$1 is a copper, the buy options can be important but are normally worse than Herbalist.  +1 Card / + $1 is decent (and should be used the most), but to really use it well you either need to be BM (and BM - Pawn can't be very good) or an engine with lots of +Actions... and then you almost always will have better terminal options.  I put it at 13, and I definitely (after playing more DA) think Poor House is better than it, and I'm really not sure why I didn't put cellar ahead of it.  It is the $2 card I am least likely to open with on a 5/2, as for most terminal 5's, it is generally as good or better to open with just the 5 than it and a pawn. /end rant

Other than that, I like the list.  I think Embargo deserves top half, but 11 isn't too bad.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2013, 09:00:24 pm »
0

I agree. Pawn is an overhyped card. I don't think it is that good. I would rather take Herbalist over Pawn because Herbalist can at least top deck a useful treasure sometimes. I'm actually pretty sure I ranked Herbalist above Pawn, although I'm not sure what I ranked Pawn.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2013, 09:05:23 pm »
+1

This looks pretty good. That said, I am going to join in with the Pawn haters. It should be here and Embargo should be higher. Pawn I think gets overrated because it does a lot of things, even though it does none of those things very well.
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jonts26

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2013, 09:21:24 pm »
+4

This looks pretty good. That said, I am going to join in with the Pawn haters. It should be here and Embargo should be higher. Pawn I think gets overrated because it does a lot of things, even though it does none of those things very well.

If pawn is overrated, it's not by that much. I think it certainly belongs in the top 10. It's just so very useful in a lot of engine games. First off, it's a source of +buy, which is one of the key things you need for an engine. And it can be non-terminal +buy if you are sparse on villages. Or it can be a card/buy if you have actions to spare. Or if you draw your deck its $1/buy. Or if you have enough actions its card/$1. And it's super cheap. You can use your extra buys to pick them up. And the worst that happens is you have to use a pawn for card/action.

It also really shines in watchtower/library/minion engines as a source of non-terminal disappearing money/buys. So yeah, it doesnt do anything fantastic, but the flexibility is ridiculously good.

Of course, if you are constantly using pawns for card/action, then you are doing it wrong.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2013, 09:36:47 pm »
0

King's courting pawns is also very very nice. Card definitely has it's uses.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2013, 09:42:34 pm »
+1

KC-Pawn isn't that great... You get some flexibility in your choices, but still nothing that great. I'd much rather KC something that can give a bigger single bonus.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2013, 09:44:07 pm »
0

King's courting pawns is also very very nice. Card definitely has it's uses.

KC - Pawn gives you at most a Lab + activated Conspirator.  Considering the great shenanigans of KC-ing about any action, that seems highly bleh.  Though better than KC-Sechamb
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2013, 10:25:36 pm »
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Reading what some of these DA cards do was pretty cool, and while I admit this is probably not at all the right thread for it, Vagrant seems totally sweet to me, and I don't see why it's ranked so low.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2013, 10:44:58 pm »
0

Reading what some of these DA cards do was pretty cool, and while I admit this is probably not at all the right thread for it, Vagrant seems totally sweet to me, and I don't see why it's ranked so low.

Well the copper gaining aspect isn't great, it's terrible for engines, meh for big money but great for slogs. The silver aspect is kind of situational. You need to have it in hand when the attack is played, and then it is taking up space in your hand. The silvers isn't great for engines too, which attack cards are often played in engine sets.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2013, 10:50:01 pm »
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Another point about the 2 cards is they just can't be "eh, I have 2 I'll pick one up"; they have to be a focal point of your deck to be considered great. Cards like cellar and vagrant fit into the average category, you'll never not pick it up at 2 but you're not excited about it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2013, 11:48:56 pm »
0

Reading what some of these DA cards do was pretty cool, and while I admit this is probably not at all the right thread for it, Vagrant seems totally sweet to me, and I don't see why it's ranked so low.

Well the copper gaining aspect isn't great, it's terrible for engines, meh for big money but great for slogs. The silver aspect is kind of situational. You need to have it in hand when the attack is played, and then it is taking up space in your hand. The silvers isn't great for engines too, which attack cards are often played in engine sets.

He was talking about Vagrant. Not Beggar.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2013, 12:34:00 am »
+1

I think I put Cellar at like #3 or #4. It pains my heart to see it so low.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2013, 12:34:55 am »
+5

I think I put Cellar at like #3 or #4. It pains my heart to see it so low.

It pains my heart that someone put it so high...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2013, 01:26:16 am »
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What can I say, I overvalue deck-cycling. I ranked a lot of similar cards high (probably should have ranked Chancellor higher that I did now that I think about it).

Am I crazy? Probably.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2013, 01:35:57 am »
+2

What can I say, I overvalue deck-cycling. I ranked a lot of similar cards high (probably should have ranked Chancellor higher that I did now that I think about it).

Am I crazy? Probably.

I don't know what you ranked Chancellor, but I can still say with confidence that you shouldn't have ranked it higher.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2013, 02:07:52 am »
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Somewhere in the bottom 25% iirc. I would have moved it probably just a few spots higher. ...That's still too much isn't it >_<

I think my list is better this time around overall, I ranked Scheme #2 last time so my list this time HAS to be better.

Also, I thought Poor House would rank higher than it did.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2013, 02:15:47 am »
0

This looks pretty good. That said, I am going to join in with the Pawn haters. It should be here and Embargo should be higher. Pawn I think gets overrated because it does a lot of things, even though it does none of those things very well.

Most of the time you buy a $2 when you are doing so because you only have $2 to spend (or $2 left over when you have multiple buys) or you are Remodelling a Copper.  So really you are often looking not at how 'good' it is but how 'unbad' it is.    Duchess, Herbalist, Beggar and SC can provide small utility, but other times can flat-out hurt your deck.  Other cards don't hurt as such, but do very close to nothing, such as Pearl Diver and Vagrant.  There are cards that do both, never really hurt your deck and also provide some utility, such as Pawn, Hamlet, Lighthouse and Crossroads and are by definition better than either of the above.  While Pawn is the worst of these cards, I think it still deserves to be in the top half, purely based on the fact it is something to buy with $2 that is never bad and can sometimes shine.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2013, 02:59:10 am »
0

This looks pretty good. That said, I am going to join in with the Pawn haters. It should be here and Embargo should be higher. Pawn I think gets overrated because it does a lot of things, even though it does none of those things very well.

Most of the time you buy a $2 when you are doing so because you only have $2 to spend (or $2 left over when you have multiple buys) or you are Remodelling a Copper.  So really you are often looking not at how 'good' it is but how 'unbad' it is.    Duchess, Herbalist, Beggar and SC can provide small utility, but other times can flat-out hurt your deck.  Other cards don't hurt as such, but do very close to nothing, such as Pearl Diver and Vagrant.  There are cards that do both, never really hurt your deck and also provide some utility, such as Pawn, Hamlet, Lighthouse and Crossroads and are by definition better than either of the above.  While Pawn is the worst of these cards, I think it still deserves to be in the top half, purely based on the fact it is something to buy with $2 that is never bad and can sometimes shine.

The thing is that Pawn is often Copper +. If you use it for + Card + Action, then yah, it isn't hurting your deck, but it is doing nothing as well. Also, if you have a terminal draw like Witch, you chanc drawing it dead. But, most of all, if you are using Pawn correctly, almost always it is + Coin + Action (which is the same as copper or + Copper + Buy (the best use for it), or you use it for + Coin + Card which is okay but not great.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2013, 07:54:29 am »
0

What can I say, I overvalue deck-cycling. I ranked a lot of similar cards high (probably should have ranked Chancellor higher that I did now that I think about it).

Am I crazy? Probably.

Well, if you recognise you're overvaluing it, then maybe you recognise why it probably isn't that hot. One major issue is you can't cycle much when you're near the bottom of your deck - because throwing a bunch of bad cards back into your discard pile to get shuffled straight back in isn't really helpful. Another is, how valuable is cycling, really? Early on it's pretty hot, you only have a few good cards and you want to play them repeatedly. Late game, it's detrimental, and midgame, it's considerably less useful in general. Then we look at how much Cellar actually helps your current hand. With junkers, it can be great, getting rid of a bunch of bad cards at once, except, well, you probably still draw some bad cards, although you're likely net up by a fair bit. Without them, even in good scenarios it's averaging less than a silver's worth in money type decks (and early/late, slightly less probably), so not great there. In Engines it can be good for lining your components up, or sifting lots of the junk you've started drawing (something like Village, KC-Smithy then Cellar is awesome for getting you a hand with good cards).

Overall Cellar really doesn't shine often, and rarely is it worth a lot in your deck. The cycling in particular isn't that valuable.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2013, 08:06:24 am »
0

Pawn enhances a lot of different deck types, and hurts in very few (blocking a slot for a useful reaction card). EDIT: and as Davio correctly points out below, blurring your knowledge about the next card when facing a hand attack.

Minion/Library types of decks have already been addressed, Double Tactician decks are to be mentioned in this context. Engines do not crave for pawns, but have some fondness for them when they have actions to spare or when its the only source of +buy. Alternate VP and heavy greening? Heck, those decks love copper, so how can a pawn hurt, and you are not likely to draw actions dead with +card + action, and have I mentioned the extra buy that gets you another copper, plus being the obvious target for a three-pile finish?

Pawn is very rarely a card that I buy when I have $3 to spare. But I rarely buy nothing at all with $2 when pawn is on the board.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 08:43:42 am by ipofanes »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2013, 08:06:35 am »
+2

Qvist - you should reserve the second (and third and fourth if necessary) posts of these threads, and then just edit them to put in the later rankings, so that the lists are all together!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2013, 08:12:34 am »
0

Reading what some of these DA cards do was pretty cool, and while I admit this is probably not at all the right thread for it, Vagrant seems totally sweet to me, and I don't see why it's ranked so low.
Well, Vagrant is similar to Pearl Diver in that you'll buy it when you have nothing else to buy and only have $2 to spend. Sure, it combos with the usual cantrip lovers like Vineyards, King's Court and what have you. More often than not it won't hit and then it's pretty useless.

In fact, along with Pearl Diver it can actually be a bad buy in games with discard attacks as you'd rather know what the card "beneath" Vagrant would be instead of playing a guessing game in keeping it after being Militia'd.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2013, 08:53:46 am »
0

I'm guessing that the secret chamber at the bottom of the list says more about the players ranking the cards than the card itself. Not many people seem to play it well. Beggar seems quite strong too, particularly in multiplayer, and Vagrant is considerably stronger than pearl diver.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2013, 09:13:17 am »
0

I'm guessing that the secret chamber at the bottom of the list says more about the players ranking the cards than the card itself. Not many people seem to play it well. Beggar seems quite strong too, particularly in multiplayer, and Vagrant is considerably stronger than pearl diver.
Well, it's highly subjective of course.

Also, it's not a weighted vote (right?). There are more voters below lvl 40 than there are 40+ voters. So you would expect a lot of cards to be misjudged. And then there's Dark Ages, whose cards are highly likely to be misjudged as well.

Besides all this, it's hard to judge cards, because what do you do when one card is greatly overpowered in 10% of kingdoms (useless in the others) and another is useful, but not spectacular in 50% of them?

It's also a self fulfilling prophecy. If you think a card is bad, you will likely buy it less, and you will not get more proficient with that card, making you judge it worse than it actually is. I know I have this problem myself with some cards.

All in all this makes for not so precise lists and cards in weird places.

So you shouldn't take it too seriously. I would say only the top cards are in the right places as these are cards that are often bought and used. The uncertainty grows phenomenally as you go down the list.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2013, 09:35:46 am »
0

It is a weighted list. Better players by Isotropic rank are given more weighting than worse players. I can't remember if Qvist said the formula he used, although each player's weight being level+10 comes to mind for some reason.

I think Secret Chamber has it's places and it's combos, but man, they're so rare, it's worth than nothing probably 80% of the time, and even most of its combos aren't that strong I don't think. Even if it did have to move up, I doubt it'd be by much.

Go ahead and prove me wrong, DG, you're a better player than I am after all.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2013, 10:02:55 am »
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I like to look at Pawn as a Copper I can Cellar away for something else if I don't want a Copper. Plus, I can squeeze a buy out of it if I don't need the money! Plus, the other 3 modes!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2013, 10:05:39 am »
0

I like to look at Pawn as a Copper I can Cellar away for something else if I don't want a Copper. Plus, I can squeeze a buy out of it if I don't need the money! Plus, the other 3 modes!
+1 Card, +$1 is often a Silver! :D
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2013, 10:14:41 am »
0

The list seems fine except Beggar which is highly underrated at the moment. I don't remember where I ranked it, but I believe it was likely in the top 10. Beggar is the ultimate alternate VP card and helps other strategies as well. Also, it's reaction part is pretty decent.
I would suspect that the people who ranked Beggar in the bottom 5 haven't played a lot of dark ages yet (or maybe just not Dark Ages only?).  I think it's definitely deserving of top 10.  The reaction is great against Knights/Pillage/Rogue, gaining Copper like that can be very useful at times.  It's not something I'm going to buy early and play at every opportunity, but it's definitely a card that I consider for a bit when deciding on my strategy.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2013, 10:36:22 am »
0

Most of the time you buy a $2 when you are doing so because you only have $2 to spend (or $2 left over when you have multiple buys) or you are Remodelling a Copper. 

I disagree. You really don't have exactly $2 all that often. The $2 cards have to have something that makes them worth buying for $3-4, and they (almost) all do, in some situations. It's fairly rare for Duchess or Pearl Diver, but very common for the better $2 cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2013, 11:32:28 am »
0

I'm guessing that the secret chamber at the bottom of the list says more about the players ranking the cards than the card itself. Not many people seem to play it well. Beggar seems quite strong too, particularly in multiplayer, and Vagrant is considerably stronger than pearl diver.

Vagrant, in a messy kingdom with looting and sans trashing, will be in the same league as Wishing Well. Also, it harmonises with Mystic.

As an aside, if you find a crappy card at the botton of the deck, and you have Mystic in hand, will you move the card to the top?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2013, 02:56:14 pm »
0

I'm guessing that the secret chamber at the bottom of the list says more about the players ranking the cards than the card itself. Not many people seem to play it well. Beggar seems quite strong too, particularly in multiplayer, and Vagrant is considerably stronger than pearl diver.

For the record, I put Pearl Diver last. Value-wise it does very little unless KC is in the kingdom. Being able to put your bottom card of your deck isn't all that hot, especially when it is something like a copper or estate. I think people rank Pearl Diver higher because it's non-terminal. But, really, the card is useless most of the time. And, yes, I do buy it often because it's non-terminal, but that doesn't take away that it is usually a useless card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2013, 03:21:57 pm »
+1

I'm guessing that the secret chamber at the bottom of the list says more about the players ranking the cards than the card itself. Not many people seem to play it well. Beggar seems quite strong too, particularly in multiplayer, and Vagrant is considerably stronger than pearl diver.

Vagrant, in a messy kingdom with looting and sans trashing, will be in the same league as Wishing Well. Also, it harmonises with Mystic.

As an aside, if you find a crappy card at the botton of the deck, and you have Mystic in hand, will you move the card to the top?

Second question is about Pearl Diver, yeah?  It depends on a lot -- your current hand, the state of the game, what else is in your deck.

Do you desperately need to hit $8 this turn?  To hit $8, do you need to successfully draw Silver with your Mystic?  Then leave that Estate on the bottom and hope you get lucky.

Do you already have enough money to buy what you want?  Then maybe it's worth it to you to move the Estate up and clear it away with your Mystic, to improve future hands.

Do you have a Rebuild in your deck that you haven't drawn yet?  Maybe it's best to leave that Duchy down there at the bottom, so that you won't accidentally cause Rebuild to miss the reshuffle when you play it in the next turn or two.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2013, 03:41:44 am »
0

Qvist - you should reserve the second (and third and fourth if necessary) posts of these threads, and then just edit them to put in the later rankings, so that the lists are all together!
Yeah, I wanted to, but forgot. Thanks for the heads up.

It is a weighted list. Better players by Isotropic rank are given more weighting than worse players. I can't remember if Qvist said the formula he used, although each player's weight being level+10 comes to mind for some reason.

I think Secret Chamber has it's places and it's combos, but man, they're so rare, it's worth than nothing probably 80% of the time, and even most of its combos aren't that strong I don't think. Even if it did have to move up, I doubt it'd be by much.

Go ahead and prove me wrong, DG, you're a better player than I am after all.

Correct, it's weighted. And it's level+5.
But in the bottom 10 of the $1-$2 cards it wouldn't have changed anything if it was unweighted. The bottom ranks would have been the same.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2013, 08:25:04 am »
0

I'm guessing that the secret chamber at the bottom of the list says more about the players ranking the cards than the card itself. Not many people seem to play it well. Beggar seems quite strong too, particularly in multiplayer, and Vagrant is considerably stronger than pearl diver.

Vagrant, in a messy kingdom with looting and sans trashing, will be in the same league as Wishing Well.

So if the kingdom is just right it will be as good as a decidedly average card?  That's not exactly a great advert...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2013, 08:54:10 am »
0

I'm guessing that the secret chamber at the bottom of the list says more about the players ranking the cards than the card itself. Not many people seem to play it well. Beggar seems quite strong too, particularly in multiplayer, and Vagrant is considerably stronger than pearl diver.

Vagrant, in a messy kingdom with looting and sans trashing, will be in the same league as Wishing Well.

So if the kingdom is just right it will be as good as a decidedly average card?  That's not exactly a great advert...

Well, if Vagrant would do what measly Adventurer does, it would be vastly overpowered.

If it competes with a decidedly average card costing $1 more, it can't be total crap. I think it's correctly placed above Pearl Diver, as other than its submarine cousin it doesn't get weaker when played multiple times.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2013, 09:16:10 am »
0

Cycling is GREAT. Especially when you have slow trashing, like remodel, or anything else that leads to a large differential of the cards in your deck. Are you really arguing that warehouse is bad? All it does is cycle.

Now, cellar is worse than warehouse by a fair bit, because of the order. That said, for me, a cellar is a welcome addition any time I am increasing my handsize, (usually an engine), and especially good when I just want to put together a combo. Cellar in double tac is AMAZING. So yeah, I don't know if its underrated, but its definitely not overrated.

What can I say, I overvalue deck-cycling. I ranked a lot of similar cards high (probably should have ranked Chancellor higher that I did now that I think about it).

Am I crazy? Probably.

Well, if you recognise you're overvaluing it, then maybe you recognise why it probably isn't that hot. One major issue is you can't cycle much when you're near the bottom of your deck - because throwing a bunch of bad cards back into your discard pile to get shuffled straight back in isn't really helpful. Another is, how valuable is cycling, really? Early on it's pretty hot, you only have a few good cards and you want to play them repeatedly. Late game, it's detrimental, and midgame, it's considerably less useful in general. Then we look at how much Cellar actually helps your current hand. With junkers, it can be great, getting rid of a bunch of bad cards at once, except, well, you probably still draw some bad cards, although you're likely net up by a fair bit. Without them, even in good scenarios it's averaging less than a silver's worth in money type decks (and early/late, slightly less probably), so not great there. In Engines it can be good for lining your components up, or sifting lots of the junk you've started drawing (something like Village, KC-Smithy then Cellar is awesome for getting you a hand with good cards).

Overall Cellar really doesn't shine often, and rarely is it worth a lot in your deck. The cycling in particular isn't that valuable.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2013, 09:21:39 am »
0

I'm guessing that the secret chamber at the bottom of the list says more about the players ranking the cards than the card itself. Not many people seem to play it well. Beggar seems quite strong too, particularly in multiplayer, and Vagrant is considerably stronger than pearl diver.

Vagrant, in a messy kingdom with looting and sans trashing, will be in the same league as Wishing Well. Also, it harmonises with Mystic.

As an aside, if you find a crappy card at the botton of the deck, and you have Mystic in hand, will you move the card to the top?
But in the kingdoms you describe it's usually better to have some money providing card like Silver than a Wishing Well or even a Vagrant. The chances of this finding the type of card it's looking for just isn't ever going to be very high, maybe in a alt-vp rush or slog, but again money is more important in those games than this small cycling effect. I'd rather buy a Duchess than a Vagrant in those games.

And when you often miss like that it's just a bad card doing nothing. The fact that it combos with one other card, Mystic, doesn't add much for me.

Now don't get me wrong, I will most likely buy it whenever I have $2 and an extra buy, because, like Pearl Diver, it rarely hurts to have it in your deck. But that just isn't going to be the case that often. I don't think I'll get it often with $3 or $4 whereas the power $2's if you can call them that I will most definitely sometimes get with $3 or even $4.

Herbalist can provide a critical +Buy and Moat deserves some more attention because not all Dominion games are 2 player.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2013, 09:54:25 am »
+2

Cycling is GREAT. Especially when you have slow trashing, like remodel, or anything else that leads to a large differential of the cards in your deck. Are you really arguing that warehouse is bad? All it does is cycle.

Now, cellar is worse than warehouse by a fair bit, because of the order. That said, for me, a cellar is a welcome addition any time I am increasing my handsize, (usually an engine), and especially good when I just want to put together a combo. Cellar in double tac is AMAZING. So yeah, I don't know if its underrated, but its definitely not overrated.

Except what you just described is SIFTING, not CYCLING. Sifting gets you better cards into hand now. That's the main purpose of Cellar and Warehouse, but they also cycle quite a bit. Cycling is getting through your deck more quickly. Anything that draws cards cycles. Chancellor is the king of cycling. And it sounds like you're overrating the value of sifting as well. Warehouse is really good, because it suddenly lets you choose the best 4 of 7 cards for your turn instead of 5 of 5, and usually those best 4 are considerably better than the original 5. Cellar, well, it lets you sift any cards from your hand that are worse than the average on your deck (roughly). Not great. It's good when you have big handsizes, but the real issue there is, you have to be careful with your deck size, because it's easy to discard a bunch of poor cards and then trigger a reshuffle, leaving a bunch of dead cards on deck. So that hugely limits it's effectiveness. That's definitely a situation where Cellar is at it's best though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2013, 10:02:19 am »
+1

Cellar is also pretty decent in engine games where you have a couple key cards that you want to get together to get the chain going.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2013, 10:02:31 am »
0

Cycling is GREAT. Especially when you have slow trashing, like remodel, or anything else that leads to a large differential of the cards in your deck. Are you really arguing that warehouse is bad? All it does is cycle.

Now, cellar is worse than warehouse by a fair bit, because of the order. That said, for me, a cellar is a welcome addition any time I am increasing my handsize, (usually an engine), and especially good when I just want to put together a combo. Cellar in double tac is AMAZING. So yeah, I don't know if its underrated, but its definitely not overrated.

Yeah, I wouldn't put it any lower than it is. And you could probably argue it up to #10 or #9 maybe based on what you say, but the number of situations where it shines are limited enough that it's not going to be better than that. It's very good when you have low/no trashing draw engines and that's about it. It's about useless in big money or with good trashing. It's also pretty good with draw up to engines since the reduced handsize doesn't hurt you. But considering the other cards in the top 10, it's hard to justify displacing any of those.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2013, 11:07:41 am »
0

I'm guessing that the secret chamber at the bottom of the list says more about the players ranking the cards than the card itself. Not many people seem to play it well. Beggar seems quite strong too, particularly in multiplayer, and Vagrant is considerably stronger than pearl diver.

Vagrant, in a messy kingdom with looting and sans trashing, will be in the same league as Wishing Well.

So if the kingdom is just right it will be as good as a decidedly average card?  That's not exactly a great advert...

Well, if Vagrant would do what measly Adventurer does, it would be vastly overpowered.

If it competes with a decidedly average card costing $1 more, it can't be total crap. I think it's correctly placed above Pearl Diver, as other than its submarine cousin it doesn't get weaker when played multiple times.

I think it's correctly placed.  Like a lot of the other cards down the bottom there it can shine in the right kingdom (heck, Scout can shine in the right Kingdom).   It's better than SC, PD and probably Herbalist.  Moat is more debatable and probably comes down to whether you are talking about two-player or multiplayer.  I can't really rank it above anything else though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2013, 12:09:43 pm »
0

It's good when you have big handsizes, but the real issue there is, you have to be careful with your deck size, because it's easy to discard a bunch of poor cards and then trigger a reshuffle, leaving a bunch of dead cards on deck. So that hugely limits it's effectiveness. That's definitely a situation where Cellar is at it's best though.

You just have to be careful, sometimes you have to play cellar for less, or not play your draw card. I kind of like having to ask: are a few dead cards on top of my deck worth an extra +$X? That comes up with lots of cards. I think that makes cellar a tricky card sometimes, but not a worse card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2013, 12:21:28 pm »
+1


Yeah, I wouldn't put it any lower than it is. And you could probably argue it up to #10 or #9 maybe based on what you say, but the number of situations where it shines are limited enough that it's not going to be better than that. It's very good when you have low/no trashing draw engines and that's about it. It's about useless in big money or with good trashing. It's also pretty good with draw up to engines since the reduced handsize doesn't hurt you. But considering the other cards in the top 10, it's hard to justify displacing any of those.

I'd put cellar over poorhouse and *maybe* embargo.

Poorhouse in my experience is great when its great, but that just comes up too rarely. You need a lot: buys, trashing, lots of extra actions, and ideally some draw. It's maybe better than cellar when its good, but I find cellar is good more often.

Embargo similarly has shining moments, but so often is just bad. Even at $2, I don't always buy it if I have a few other terminals. I love embargo, as it allows some brilliant tactics at times. But its also useless a lot of the time. There is also how do you definite power: if embargo keeps both players from ever buying a potion card, but neither player ever buys an embargo, was it powerful or not?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2013, 12:28:01 pm »
0

I think Embargo is clearly better than Cellar. First of all, it has a much larger strategic impact when it does matter. Second of all, if you hit $2, you can just pick it up for the one-time cash bonus. It doesn't stick around so you don't have to worry as much about collision (well you do, but just once).

Cellar is nice if you have a bunch of junk to get through, but Warehouse and Crossroads and half a dozen other cards can do that better.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #61 on: January 04, 2013, 12:58:40 pm »
0

Anyone know when we can be expecting part 2?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2013, 07:39:22 pm »
0

Anyone know when we can be expecting part 2?

Patience. I am sure Qvist is a busy person.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #63 on: January 04, 2013, 08:56:51 pm »
0

And I'm sure with as much production is going into the videos, they take a good bit of effort to put together.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #64 on: January 04, 2013, 09:40:00 pm »
0

I think Embargo is clearly better than Cellar. First of all, it has a much larger strategic impact when it does matter. Second of all, if you hit $2, you can just pick it up for the one-time cash bonus. It doesn't stick around so you don't have to worry as much about collision (well you do, but just once).

Cellar is nice if you have a bunch of junk to get through, but Warehouse and Crossroads and half a dozen other cards can do that better.
Warehouse and Crossroads and....
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #65 on: January 04, 2013, 09:43:20 pm »
0

I think Embargo is clearly better than Cellar. First of all, it has a much larger strategic impact when it does matter. Second of all, if you hit $2, you can just pick it up for the one-time cash bonus. It doesn't stick around so you don't have to worry as much about collision (well you do, but just once).

Cellar is nice if you have a bunch of junk to get through, but Warehouse and Crossroads and half a dozen other cards can do that better.
Warehouse and Crossroads and....

Vault?  That card from DA (Storehouse? Storage house?)  A lot of Oases?  Uh... KC-KC-Rabble?  Uhhhh.... Draw + Forge?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #66 on: January 04, 2013, 09:49:40 pm »
0

I think Embargo is clearly better than Cellar. First of all, it has a much larger strategic impact when it does matter. Second of all, if you hit $2, you can just pick it up for the one-time cash bonus. It doesn't stick around so you don't have to worry as much about collision (well you do, but just once).

Cellar is nice if you have a bunch of junk to get through, but Warehouse and Crossroads and half a dozen other cards can do that better.
Warehouse and Crossroads and....
Cartographer, Embassy, Sage, Inn, Stables, Ironmonger, Golem, Oasis, Vault, Farming Village, Vagrant, Scout ( ;) )

Okay, this is probably a bit of an overstatement of things, as cellar is often better than many of these (as well as warehouse and crossroads, in a non-negligible number of scenarios). But I don't think his statement is crazy.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #67 on: January 04, 2013, 10:32:41 pm »
+1

Cellar has two advantages over other sifters. 1) It's cheaper, 2) Its sifting isn't limited in the conventional way that other sifters are limited. You can sift 40 cards with Cellar, if you have the hand size for it (unlike, say, Inn, which is always giving you 2 cards and then asking you to recycle 2 cards you don't want).

The second thing is very seldom important. It's not never important (Tactician! Scrying Pool! Edge cases!).

The first thing is nice, but trashing is usually better than weak sifting anyway, and sifting with benefits is usually more worthwhile than cheap sifting.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #68 on: January 04, 2013, 10:40:17 pm »
+1

A standard village-smithy-like engine with either no trashing or limited trashing can have very good use for a cellar. It's not that much of an edge case I think.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2013, 05:20:23 am »
0

At some point in this topic, we might realize we're talking about $1 and $2 cards so we can't expect miracles for them. It's fun to see people defending some $2's like they're the holy grail of Dominion. ;D

Well, we haven't gotten to the usual #1 Chapel yet. I wonder where Chapel would end up in a mixed ranking.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2013, 07:39:08 am »
0

I think Embargo is clearly better than Cellar. First of all, it has a much larger strategic impact when it does matter. Second of all, if you hit $2, you can just pick it up for the one-time cash bonus. It doesn't stick around so you don't have to worry as much about collision (well you do, but just once).

Cellar is nice if you have a bunch of junk to get through, but Warehouse and Crossroads and half a dozen other cards can do that better.
Warehouse and Crossroads and....
Cartographer, Embassy, Sage, Inn, Stables, Ironmonger, Golem, Oasis, Vault, Farming Village, Vagrant, Scout ( ;) )

Okay, this is probably a bit of an overstatement of things, as cellar is often better than many of these (as well as warehouse and crossroads, in a non-negligible number of scenarios). But I don't think his statement is crazy.

Yeah, and all of these cards also cost only 2$!
Wait...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2013, 09:41:46 am »
+1

I think Embargo is clearly better than Cellar. First of all, it has a much larger strategic impact when it does matter. Second of all, if you hit $2, you can just pick it up for the one-time cash bonus. It doesn't stick around so you don't have to worry as much about collision (well you do, but just once).

Cellar is nice if you have a bunch of junk to get through, but Warehouse and Crossroads and half a dozen other cards can do that better.
Warehouse and Crossroads and....
Cartographer, Embassy, Sage, Inn, Stables, Ironmonger, Golem, Oasis, Vault, Farming Village, Vagrant, Scout ( ;) )

Okay, this is probably a bit of an overstatement of things, as cellar is often better than many of these (as well as warehouse and crossroads, in a non-negligible number of scenarios). But I don't think his statement is crazy.

Yeah, and all of these cards also cost only 2$!
Wait...
I didn't realize that this was a limitation - warehouse doesn't cost 2 either. I mean, I don't think anybody's going to argue that cellar isn't a top-5 sifter among 2-costs, but I mean, really, is that saying all that much? I think the point people are trying to make earlier, too, is that very often you end up having to pay more than $2 for these cards, and then it is a totally fair comparison.
Certainly, cellar is good in the right kind of deck. Like everything else.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2013, 09:50:35 am »
0

Anyone know when we can be expecting part 2?

I wanted to post it yesterday, but I'm a little bit ill since Wednesday. I try to post it today.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2013, 10:48:45 am »
0

Vagrant seems very underrated to me.
... but I admit there is a strong competition between the $2 now.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2013, 10:54:47 am »
0

Anyone know when we can be expecting part 2?

I wanted to post it yesterday, but I'm a little bit ill since Wednesday. I try to post it today.

No rush. I hope you feel better!

warrior297
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2013, 10:57:47 am »
0

I have to admit, looking over my list there are probably three or four distinct blocks, where there are big jumps in quality, and those good cards start much earlier than I'd have expected. I think Vagrant is a useful card occasionally, but it suffers the same issue as Pearl Diver: It's a cantrip that occasionally helps just a little bit, and never really shines.

Like, my bottom 5 matches the bottom 5 here but in a different order. Then there's a big jump up to Cellar, Vagrant, Embargo, Pawn, Native Village. Then there's another big jump up and I have Fool's Gold, Haven, Poor House, Crossroads, Lighthouse, and finally Chapel, Hamlet and Courtyard.

(If you're astute you'll notice Squire and Beggar are missing, I'm really not sure on those. Squire I have between the top two sets, and Beggar between Native Village and Fool's Gold. Time will tell where I should have put those)
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2013, 11:40:24 am »
0

(If you're astute you'll notice Squire and Beggar are missing, I'm really not sure on those. Squire I have between the top two sets, and Beggar between Native Village and Fool's Gold. Time will tell where I should have put those)

Beggar isn't missing (in the list). Or You've meant something other?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2013, 11:42:12 am »
0

(If you're astute you'll notice Squire and Beggar are missing, I'm really not sure on those. Squire I have between the top two sets, and Beggar between Native Village and Fool's Gold. Time will tell where I should have put those)

Beggar isn't missing (in the list). Or You've meant something other?
He means in HIS list.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #78 on: January 05, 2013, 12:19:24 pm »
0

Sorry, I've said nothing  :)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #79 on: January 05, 2013, 01:32:11 pm »
+1

I have to admit, looking over my list there are probably three or four distinct blocks, where there are big jumps in quality, and those good cards start much earlier than I'd have expected. I think Vagrant is a useful card occasionally, but it suffers the same issue as Pearl Diver: It's a cantrip that occasionally helps just a little bit, and never really shines.

No, Vagrant shines in a crossroads-nobles/harem kind of deck. Vagrant can be very powerful sometimes...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #80 on: January 05, 2013, 02:21:06 pm »
0

Ah, yes, it triggers on dual type cards. Perhaps I underrated it slightly. Then again, how common are those games? I'll have to see as I play Dark Ages more.
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But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #81 on: January 05, 2013, 06:21:11 pm »
+4

Here's the video link:

The Best $1-$2 Cards (Part 2/2)

#10 Native Village (Seaside) Weighted Average: 51.0% ▼0.3pp / Median: 47.4% ▼5.9pp / Standard Deviation: 19.2% ▼2.7pp
Highest Value(s): 94.4% (1x), 89.5% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 26.3% (5x), 15.8% (1x)

Native Village has nearly the same value, but loses a rank in comparism to last year if we ignore Dark Ages cards. It would also have been a rank higher if we would take the unweighted ranking into account. It has also the second highest deviation in this list.

The problem with NV is that you get no immediate benefit beside the +2 Actions. If you use it as a cheap village you only draw 1/2 card per play. But that's not the intended use. But you can use it either as a pseudo-trasher by putting bad cards on the mat. But normally it fails that you cannot choose the card to put there. You need assistence with cards like Spy or especially Apothecary. The best use may be to use it for mega-turn with a lot of buys. NV+Bridge is the most effective combo. It's also neat on boards with heavy cursing to either forge a big hand or to get at least once to $6-$8.
#9 Pawn (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 52.4% ▲3.2pp / Median: 52.6% ▼0.7pp / Standard Deviation: 14.0% ▲3.1pp
Highest Value(s): 86.7% (1x), 84.2% (1x), 73.7% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 27.8% (1x), 15.8% (2x)

Pawn is now better than Native Village and has the same rank as last year even though one Dark Ages card is still coming. And like said before it would be on #10 with the unweighted ranking. And having a real bad deviation last year, this year it has way more agreement.

Pawn is bad if you don't know how to play it and simply use it as a cantrip. But it can be very useful as a cheap source of +Buy and in the beginning it's mostly a cheap Silver if you use it for card + money. Its flexibility makes it good. But it's not great, but can be very useful in a lot of case. It's great as source of +Buy or +$1 in Minion games and is good in engines with draw-up-to-X cards like Watchtower. It can win your game because you picked it up for +Buy but normally it's no game-changer. And if you use it for card + action it at least doesn't hurt.
#8 Haven (Seaside) Weighted Average: 56.7% ▼1.7pp / Median: 57.9% ▼2.1pp / Standard Deviation: 17.5% ▼3.0pp
Highest Value(s): 94.7% (1x), 80.0% (1x), 78.9% (6x) / Lowest Value(s): 21.1% (2x), 0.0% (1x)

Haven is on the same rank as last year (ignoring Dark Ages). This time it has two big outliers on both sides. One voted it second and one voted it last, this caused the drop in consensus this year.

Haven reduces your hand size by one, but your next hand size is bigger, that hurts very rarely, so it's like a mini-Tactician. And this ability to minimize draw luck is great. You have $11, just set a Gold aside. You have $7, just set a Copper aside. Two terminal actions in hand, no problem. A village you don't need this turn, etc. You get your maximum out of your money and your actions. It's a very good card, but no game-changer what may be the reason why it isn't a tier 1 card. It supports every strategy but isn't a strategy on its own. Still it's one of the best $2 cost cards for a 5/2 opening split. Trading Post / Haven is the best Trading Post opener on #14 ▼5 and Mountebank / Haven is on #23 ▼8.
#7 Crossroads (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 64.9% ▲3.2pp / Median: 68.4% ▲8.4pp / Standard Deviation: 14.4% ▲0.7pp
Highest Value(s): 89.5% (1x), 84.2% (6x) / Lowest Value(s): 40.0% (2x), 36.8% (1x), 13.3% (1x)

We make the next bigger gap and come to another card which stays where it was. Crossroads only has 7 below average votes with one bigger outlier and now already some really high votes. Its rating is also way better than last year.

Crossroads is the only card with +3 Actions so far (yeah Fishing Village has it too in some way). And this can be very useful. The problem is the luck factor you need with that card. If you buy it early and get a hand with 4 coppers, you wish it were a Silver or one of the next $2 cards. Later you draw it with 3 Estates and you draw now your Vault and you can buy a Province for sure. It combos well with cards that take advantage of big hands. So Crossroads + Vault is very good as is Wharf/Crossroads. And of course it's great with your good $5 attacks, especially setting up a Torturer chain. Baron + Crossroads is also nice because it gives you the actions to play multiples and you can much easier connect Estate and Baron together. Crossroads is rarely a reason to go green earlier, but it helps a lot in the end game and can assure you won't lose your buying power. And sometimes there are so many good terminals that you only want it for its 3 Actions. As mentioned above another problem is that it only synergizes with victory cards not with curses what makes it a worse alternative to Cellar in cursing games. Drawing without having to discard is often better because you have targets for other cards, for example trash-for-benefit cards. Torturer / Crossroads is the second best Torturer opener on #85.
#6 Squire (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 70.9% / Median: 73.7% / Standard Deviation: 17.8%
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 94.7% (4x) / Lowest Value(s): 42.1% (5x), 26.3% (1x)

Squire is the best Dark Ages card in this list without a doubt. It is also the first card which got voted first. But it has a pretty high deviation as it is still new and has a big outlier with 26.3%. It was voted 8 times below average.

Squire is strong because of its flexibility similar to Pawn. Squire's first option +2 Actions is stronger than Pawn's +$1, +1 Action and can be useful in engines or when Squires collide. Squire's second option +2 Buys is also stronger than Pawn's +1$, +1 Buy and can be very useful in buying more Squires, in alt-VP games like Gardens games where buying Coppers isn't that bad and of course in engines where having extra buys is very important. And Squire's third option, gaining a Silver is a great choice whenever you don't need Actions or Buys and can be great if you go for Feodum or any other alt-VP too. And there's its on-trash effect which is very powerful. You can open Chapel/Squire, trash down your deck and gain a Goons on the way. It only misses the draw, but is useful in any engine and most alt-VP games.
#5 Lighthouse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 75.6% ▼1.5pp / Median: 78.9% ▼1.1pp / Standard Deviation: 13.2% ▲0.6pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (2x), 94.7% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 52.6% (2x), 31.6% (1x)

Lighthouse was on #4 last year, so it has lost one rank. It was voted only once below average and has really high consensus.

With Lighthouse on the board, you really need to evualate if it's worth buying a attacking engine. It may the best Reaction that isn't even blue. Why? Most important: It's non-terminal. Unlike Moat, it cannot collide with other terminal actions or another copy. Second: It gives you money. It may look like a Copper, but after you play it, you are safe and get even another $1 the next turn. No surprise Trading Post / Lighthouse is the #21 best opening. Without the reaction part it's still nearly as good as Silver, but on boards with heavy attacks, it's clearly superior to Silver. You only have to make sure you play one Lighthouse each turn.
#4 Fool's Gold (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 81.2% ▲4.9pp / Median: 84.2% ▲4.2pp / Standard Deviation: 14.4% ▲2.6pp
Highest Value(s): 94.7% (9x) / Lowest Value(s): 52.6% (2x), 15.8% (1x)

Fool's Gold went up a rank and with the unweighted ranking taking into account it would have been even on #3. The was only one big outlier below average and a lot of votes on #2. It also gained a lot of consensus in comparism to last time. You might call it the winner of this list.

Going for Fool's Gold is its own strategy. If you buy just one or two, it mostly isn't worth it, because the reaction part isn't the strong part. You want FG in masses, in high density. With a card with money and +Buy and/or a card drawer it's really great and you have to go for it. Goal: Get as many FGs as you can. Margrave + FG, Wharf + FG (#11 best opening) or Nomad Camp + FG are good combos, Remodel + FG and Mine + FG as well, but you can get even higher density with Mint. Mint + FG is the fifth =0 best opening on Councilroom. That may reason enough that FG deserves to be in the Top 5. Connecting at least two FG isn't that hard if you've got lots of them. And then it's better than Silver. But you really have to analyze when to buy it. On boards with strong cursers where it's unlikely to connect them, it's one of the worst cards - on other boards it's the best card.
#3 Courtyard (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 82.4% ▼1.1pp / Median: 84.2% ▼2.5pp / Standard Deviation: 14.1% ▼2.6pp
Highest Value(s): 94.7% (8x) / Lowest Value(s): 47.4% (1x), 42.1% (1x), 33.3% (1x)

Courtyard is only slightly better than Fool's Gold and with the unweighted ranking it would be on the fourth rank. It even got 3 votes below average and 1 vote less on the second place then Fool's Gold.

Courtyard is really great with Big Money. Like Haven it minimizes shuffle luck by putting a card on top of the deck, so if you have too much money or a second Courtyard in hand, that's no problem. But you don't get a 6 card hand like with Haven. But the card draw makes it one of the best Big Money enablers and that's outstanding for a $2 card and if you compare it with Smithy which costs $4. Its concept is simple but very effective. Don't underestimate the power of Courtyard. Additionally Courtyard is also a good drawer in engines as you can put your strong colliding terminal action also on top of your deck. So it's nearly everytime a very strong card.
#2 Hamlet (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 88.2% ▲3.7pp / Median: 89.5% ▲2.8pp / Standard Deviation: 11.3% ▼0.3pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (4x) / Lowest Value(s): 66.7 (1x), 46.7% (1x), 44.4% (1x)

Hamlet is on the same rank as last year and got 4 first rank votes. It was only voted twice below the upper third and gained a lot of points with a rise of 3.7pp

It's one of the best villages around. Yes, you have to discard one card as "payment" for the second action, but if you really need the +2 Actions there's no problem for you to discard that Copper. And most important: Most engines lack +Buy. Hamlet may provide that for another card as payment. Even if you don't need the +2 Actions for your strategy, a non-terminal card with +Buy is always worth to buy. So, if you use both options, you have a Worker's Village for $2, but you have to "pay" for that options. And when you got your first Hamlet you can easily buy more Hamlets with that additional +Buy. With "draw up to" cards like Watchtower or Library it's brilliant and everybody's favourite for engine building. Of course it's not that useful in Big Money boards what may be the reason for many prefering the more flexible Courtyard over Hamlet.
#1 Chapel (Base) Weighted Average: 99.3% ▲0.9pp / Median: 100% =0 / Standard Deviation: 3.0% ▲1.1pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (48x) / Lowest Value(s): 89.5% (3x), 88.9% (1x)

Really, that's still no surprise. A nearly perfect score, it got even better ratings and has a higher consensus with only 3% of deviation!

So, what's up with that uber-card? Even Donald X. admitted that Chapel is a little bit overpowered and he won't release another card so strong like Chapel in future expansions. Trashing is important in the beginning, and the cost of Chapel enables everyone to open with Chapel. As Councilroom shows it's veeery strong, but only if you open with it. You even want to start Chapel/Silver with 3/4. It's not every time a must-buy but in most occasions it is. It's so strong that you already can say you lost if your opponent opened Witch/Chapel and you have a 4/3 start. With Mountebank/Chapel on #1 =0, Govenor/Chapel on #3 ▼1 and Tournament/Chapel on #4 ▲2 it's three times in the Top 5 openings, 6 times in the Top 10 and 29 ▲2 times in the top #100. So, its power is undeniable. I do agree that it's more often skippable than it used to be, especially on Big Money boards or other boards with strong key cards which you want ASAP.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 08:26:22 pm by Qvist »
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heron

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #82 on: January 05, 2013, 06:26:30 pm »
+1

Native village is way too low.
Fool's gold, hamlet, and crossroads and pawn are too high.

I mean, why does anybody like hamlet anyway? It's like worker's village, but you have to discard 2 cards. That's bad. If you use it for the +Buy, it's only a tiny bit better than pawn. Native village, IMO, is better.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #83 on: January 05, 2013, 06:28:41 pm »
+1

I mean, why does anybody like hamlet anyway? It's like worker's village, but you have to discard 2 cards. That's bad. If you use it for the +Buy, it's only a tiny bit better than pawn. Native village, IMO, is better.

It costs half as much, that's why it's good.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #84 on: January 05, 2013, 06:31:52 pm »
0

Native village is way too low.
Fool's gold, hamlet, and crossroads and pawn are too high.

I mean, why does anybody like hamlet anyway? It's like worker's village, but you have to discard 2 cards. That's bad. If you use it for the +Buy, it's only a tiny bit better than pawn. Native village, IMO, is better.
I disagree with most everything you're saying here, except on hamlet. But I think hamlet is only SLIGHTLY off - you don't HAVE to make it worker's village, and sometimes the discard is a benefit (tunnel, menagerie, watchtower/library/jack. But yeah, I don't think it's THAT hot.

Haven, there's a card I would say is too high. It just does so little for you so often. But, you know, it's usually at least mildly good... I dunno, I'd put it closer to vagrant.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #85 on: January 05, 2013, 06:35:49 pm »
0

Thanks for this part, but somehow I am only able to see half of the video.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #86 on: January 05, 2013, 06:52:02 pm »
0

Hm, you're right. I try to figure out what happened.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #87 on: January 05, 2013, 06:53:13 pm »
0

Thanks for this part, but somehow I am only able to see half of the video.

Yeah, same. It cuts off at 5:18 in both Chrome and Firefox.

Anyway Fool's Gold looks a bit high here, but everything else looks okay. Hamlet I think definitely deserves second. It might offer not much quite a lot of time, but having the option of both an extra action, or an extra buy, or both at hand is HUGE. Especially if you're aiming to draw your deck, then the discards will possibly get drawn again anyway, if you get the extra actions now, or alternately well then you're getting the extra buys for free. It can really enable engines on boards, offering two important components, and extremely cheaply as well.

Fool's Gold is good pretty often, but there's a lot of the time it's not good. It really needs some trashing and/or gainers to work well, and even then, it has to end the game quickly - it really struggles if you drag it into a duchy dance. And especially, it's not so hot in 3+ player games, where if two players split them, the third will often win.
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But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #88 on: January 05, 2013, 07:32:33 pm »
+1

I think Hamlet is too high. Yah, it is neat and all and worthy of top 5, but I think Courtyard should be number 2. It is much easier to get more benefit from Courtyard in more decks than Hamlet. Not every deck is an engine and really needs +Buy and against discard attacks, Hamelt is really weak.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #89 on: January 05, 2013, 07:37:50 pm »
0

Not bad. I ranked Squire and Courtyard ahead of Hamlet, I think. But, this is fine.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #90 on: January 05, 2013, 07:38:38 pm »
+1

Thanks for this part, but somehow I am only able to see half of the video.

Yeah, same. It cuts off at 5:18 in both Chrome and Firefox.

Anyway Fool's Gold looks a bit high here, but everything else looks okay. Hamlet I think definitely deserves second. It might offer not much quite a lot of time, but having the option of both an extra action, or an extra buy, or both at hand is HUGE. Especially if you're aiming to draw your deck, then the discards will possibly get drawn again anyway, if you get the extra actions now, or alternately well then you're getting the extra buys for free. It can really enable engines on boards, offering two important components, and extremely cheaply as well.

Fool's Gold is good pretty often, but there's a lot of the time it's not good. It really needs some trashing and/or gainers to work well, and even then, it has to end the game quickly - it really struggles if you drag it into a duchy dance. And especially, it's not so hot in 3+ player games, where if two players split them, the third will often win.
Actually, I've found that it's really good for basically any kind of money deck - it just outclasses silver, anyway - but, and here's the kicker, it's even better for engines. Yup. I mean, think about it - you're drawing most of your deck, so getting them to collide is not so much a problem. Two is better than two silvers, three is as good as three golds, four is obscene. And they're easy to pick up in lots of engines. The only issue is whether you can afford to get them at the beginning of the game, with the decreased chance of hitting key 5-costs.
So trashing is occasionally nice but really not necessary, gaining is definitely nice but also unnecessary. They don't hold up in duchy dances, that's true. But usually duchy dancing won't matter, if they don't get the fool's gold.
Multiplayer, the dynamics change, but I find that usually if two people go for FG, they beat others who don't. And with more players, the reaction ability really comes in as well...

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #91 on: January 05, 2013, 07:55:38 pm »
+1

Comparing the list to my list:
Chapel =
Fool's Gold +2
Courtyard =
Lighthouse +1
Crossroads +2
Squire -1
Hamlet -5
Haven =
Embargo +1
Vagrant +5
Beggar +2
Native Village -2
Pawn -4
Herbalist +3
Cellar -2
Poor House -4
Pearl Diver +1
Duchess +1
Moat -3
Secret Chamber =


I think Hamlet is quite overrated.  7 might be too low, but 2 is just too high. Probably 4-5 is about right for it.  Vagrant has seemed strong to me, but admittedly all the games I have played with it had Looter's... without Looters, it is likely weak.  Poor House, I think I intended to rank higher as I have found it quite strong, especially with throne room.  And Pawn, I definitely think is overrated.  I think I even overrated it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #92 on: January 05, 2013, 08:26:08 pm »
0

Ok, re-upload didn't work. So I did a re-cut and re-upload and now it seems to work.
New video is here:

I edit the post above too.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #93 on: January 06, 2013, 05:52:10 am »
0

I totally agree with Powerman. Hamlet ist too high at 2nd, maybe 5th for me and vagrant is better than most are thinking
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #94 on: January 06, 2013, 08:03:01 am »
0

I think crossroads is way too low. It's the 3rd best for me simply because I remember of so many games were crossroads was the key card : it really gets crazy sometimes.
Lighthouse should be at least higher than courtyard and hamlet.
Haven and Native village are too high, pawn and squire also a bit.

Chapel is still overrated.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #95 on: January 06, 2013, 08:28:34 am »
+2

In my opinion, Squire is superior to Hamlet. Squire also offers the option of +2 actions, in combination with money. Fishing Village and Bazaar are good in engines because of the money, I think. The option of two buys is also nice to get more Squires, similar to Hamlety ability, and the Silver-gaining is also quite good. These three options make Squire interesting for nearly all kinds of decks, in Engines, you can use Squire for actions and buys, in BM you can use it to gain Silver and if you draw it with Jack, you can either really make use of Jack's draw up to five cards ability or trash the Squire for a strong attack you want to get (Goons, Mountebank, Familiar, which you can get more easily with the help of squire in all boards with Squire, a trasher and Familiar) or use it for its silver gaining. As copper is not that bad in BM, the +$1 is not that bad either. And in alt VP rushes you can especially make use of the two buys or the Silver gaining, and you can avoid collisions of i. e. two workshops in a workshop gardens rush. In contrast to that, Hamlet is best in engines, so Squire is much more flexible.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #96 on: January 06, 2013, 03:20:17 pm »
+1

No. Hamlet beats Squire.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #97 on: January 06, 2013, 03:21:08 pm »
+1

Squire doesn't draw which hurts.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #98 on: January 06, 2013, 03:47:42 pm »
0

squire has a huge problem in that it cannot be a cantrip. So when you don't need it it actively hurts you.

Also I should note obviously, +1 action +$1 is better than +2 actions when you only have one other action in hand... and +$1 +1 buy looks in average way better than +2 buy...

EDIT: hamlet is overated as well that I don't argue.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 03:51:37 pm by timchen »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #99 on: January 06, 2013, 03:49:51 pm »
0

That is true of course, but still I think Squire is usefull in more kinds of decks than Hamlet.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #100 on: January 06, 2013, 04:02:28 pm »
0

Fishing Village and Bazaar are good in engines because of the money, I think.

Fishing Village is good because it gives +action across 2 turns and Bazaar lends more consistency than a card like Festival in engines because it draws a card.

Chapel is still overrated.

Whaaat dat shit cray

Chapel isn't go-to on every board, but how many kingdoms exist out there where you'll get totally smoked if you don't open Chapel?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 04:05:46 pm by dondon151 »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #101 on: January 06, 2013, 04:04:30 pm »
0

I think Squire is a lot like Hamlet, but not quite as good. If you use it for extra actions, it's a sub-village. If not, then the only really significant option in engines is the +2 buys. Gain silver is good for big money deck, not so much generally in engines. Finally the trash for attack can be huge in the right deck, but on average, I think the sheer utility of Hamlets outweighs it.

I am beginning to think, maybe I should have dropped it below Courtyard though.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #102 on: January 06, 2013, 05:46:33 pm »
0

That is true of course, but still I think Squire is usefull in more kinds of decks than Hamlet.

I used to be very excited about Squire. The more I try to use it, however, the more convinced I am that it is an assist or helpful card and rarely a power unto itself, which isn't too surprising for a $2. I believe that it will be a nuance card and something used to give your strategy a bit of an edge in some mirror situations, but I do not think it will remain in the top 5 as we get mote experience with it. I guess time will tell.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #103 on: January 06, 2013, 05:58:58 pm »
+1

That is true of course, but still I think Squire is usefull in more kinds of decks than Hamlet.

I used to be very excited about Squire. The more I try to use it, however, the more convinced I am that it is an assist or helpful card and rarely a power unto itself, which isn't too surprising for a $2. I believe that it will be a nuance card and something used to give your strategy a bit of an edge in some mirror situations, but I do not think it will remain in the top 5 as we get mote experience with it. I guess time will tell.
And when is hamlet a power unto itself?
I think the only three 2s which fit this category are chapel, fool's gold, and courtyard.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #104 on: January 06, 2013, 06:21:57 pm »
0

That is true of course, but still I think Squire is usefull in more kinds of decks than Hamlet.

I used to be very excited about Squire. The more I try to use it, however, the more convinced I am that it is an assist or helpful card and rarely a power unto itself, which isn't too surprising for a $2. I believe that it will be a nuance card and something used to give your strategy a bit of an edge in some mirror situations, but I do not think it will remain in the top 5 as we get mote experience with it. I guess time will tell.
And when is hamlet a power unto itself?
I think the only three 2s which fit this category are chapel, fool's gold, and courtyard.

Fair enough. I merely wished to indicate that despite my initial enthusiasm, I now suspect we are over estimating its value.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #105 on: January 06, 2013, 06:32:16 pm »
0

That is true of course, but still I think Squire is usefull in more kinds of decks than Hamlet.

I used to be very excited about Squire. The more I try to use it, however, the more convinced I am that it is an assist or helpful card and rarely a power unto itself, which isn't too surprising for a $2. I believe that it will be a nuance card and something used to give your strategy a bit of an edge in some mirror situations, but I do not think it will remain in the top 5 as we get mote experience with it. I guess time will tell.
And when is hamlet a power unto itself?
I think the only three 2s which fit this category are chapel, fool's gold, and courtyard.

Embargo can change the game it's in like no other card.  Lighthouse as well.  Crossroads as well.  Hamlet and squire are always villages, and often worse than regular Village.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #106 on: January 06, 2013, 07:01:51 pm »
0

And, Poor House can be a real game changer.

But, I agree with Wandering Winder. I think FG, Chapel and Courtyard are the power 2's.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #107 on: January 07, 2013, 12:40:17 am »
0

That is true of course, but still I think Squire is usefull in more kinds of decks than Hamlet.

I used to be very excited about Squire. The more I try to use it, however, the more convinced I am that it is an assist or helpful card and rarely a power unto itself, which isn't too surprising for a $2. I believe that it will be a nuance card and something used to give your strategy a bit of an edge in some mirror situations, but I do not think it will remain in the top 5 as we get mote experience with it. I guess time will tell.
And when is hamlet a power unto itself?
I think the only three 2s which fit this category are chapel, fool's gold, and courtyard.

Embargo can change the game it's in like no other card.  Lighthouse as well.  Crossroads as well.  Hamlet and squire are always villages, and often worse than regular Village.

To what extent a card can 'change the game' is only one aspect of what makes it a good card.  I don't think you will find anybody who will argue that Squire, on the right board, is better than Fools Gold, on the right board.  The difference is that on the wrong board, Squire is still a reasonable card, whereas Fools Gold is regularly irrelevant.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #108 on: January 07, 2013, 02:23:01 am »
+1

Depends on your definition of reasonable. FG is good in BM and good in engines. It's kind of bad in slogs (though helpful in Sea Hag games and probably Young Witch games too). It's worse when there are more players. Squire just looks really average; it's a poor village and it's not that great of a Silver gainer either. Of course it probably has its great combos, but I'm just not convinced that it has the same level of power as FG.

And when is hamlet a power unto itself?

When it's the only village on a board that strongly indicates engines? I'm not sure what your rhetorical question is implying. Is it that villages can't be powerful because they exist to support other, stronger cards? Obviously that's what they do; you can't expect them to be any stronger than that.

I mean, there are a number of reasons why Hamlet is great. It's one of the best support cards for draw up to X and Menagerie engines. It can give +buy. It doesn't necessarily deplete a card from your hand if you don't want it to (e.g., you have enough actions and buys already). It self-synergizes in an odd way because it gives +buy and the card itself is so cheap, so you can get the +actions into your engine faster with Hamlet than with other villages. I still personally think it's a tad overrated, but there's no doubt that it plays a crucial role in many decks that most of the other $2 cards do not.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 02:30:46 am by dondon151 »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #109 on: January 07, 2013, 07:35:18 am »
0

Native village is way too low.
Fool's gold, hamlet, and crossroads and pawn are too high.

I mean, why does anybody like hamlet anyway? It's like worker's village, but you have to discard 2 cards.

Well, yes, Horse Traders is like Gold, but you have to discard 2 cards. And it's 2$ cheaper than gold. Spot a pattern?

(Horse Traders is like terminal Gold, but it gets you an extra card from time to time, which for the sake of argument I'll have it even out the action it eats.)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #110 on: January 07, 2013, 07:38:07 am »
0

I mean, there are a number of reasons why Hamlet is great. It's one of the best support cards for draw up to X and Menagerie engines. It can give +buy. It doesn't necessarily deplete a card from your hand if you don't want it to (e.g., you have enough actions and buys already). It self-synergizes in an odd way because it gives +buy and the card itself is so cheap, so you can get the +actions into your engine faster with Hamlet than with other villages. I still personally think it's a tad overrated, but there's no doubt that it plays a crucial role in many decks that most of the other $2 cards do not.

I would like to add: The discard hurts in engines less than in BM games, as more often than not you draw the occasional wrench which you have no trouble discarding.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #111 on: January 07, 2013, 08:02:53 am »
0

Depends on your definition of reasonable. FG is good in BM and good in engines. It's kind of bad in slogs (though helpful in Sea Hag games and probably Young Witch games too). It's worse when there are more players. Squire just looks really average; it's a poor village and it's not that great of a Silver gainer either. Of course it probably has its great combos, but I'm just not convinced that it has the same level of power as FG.

And when is hamlet a power unto itself?

When it's the only village on a board that strongly indicates engines? I'm not sure what your rhetorical question is implying. Is it that villages can't be powerful because they exist to support other, stronger cards? Obviously that's what they do; you can't expect them to be any stronger than that.

I mean, there are a number of reasons why Hamlet is great. It's one of the best support cards for draw up to X and Menagerie engines. It can give +buy. It doesn't necessarily deplete a card from your hand if you don't want it to (e.g., you have enough actions and buys already). It self-synergizes in an odd way because it gives +buy and the card itself is so cheap, so you can get the +actions into your engine faster with Hamlet than with other villages. I still personally think it's a tad overrated, but there's no doubt that it plays a crucial role in many decks that most of the other $2 cards do not.
You're reading too much into what I am saying; all I am saying is that it is not a power card to itself - it needs other things to support (incidentally, more than other villages, but that is beside the point, and it does only cost 2). Those three cards, basically by themselves, can create very strong decks. Of course that doesn't mean that they are stronger in general - engines can be very powerful, and they need many parts in order to work.

Or to put it another way, it's a support card. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's weaker than on-their-own cards.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #112 on: January 07, 2013, 10:40:34 am »
0

squire has a huge problem in that it cannot be a cantrip. So when you don't need it it actively hurts you.

Also I should note obviously, +1 action +$1 is better than +2 actions when you only have one other action in hand... and +$1 +1 buy looks in average way better than +2 buy...

EDIT: hamlet is overated as well that I don't argue.

Squire comes with +$1 always, so it does beat Pawn with those choices.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #113 on: January 07, 2013, 11:34:11 am »
0

You're reading too much into what I am saying;

Am I? The rest of your post seems to suggest that I read into exactly what you were saying.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #114 on: January 07, 2013, 12:04:51 pm »
+7

I'm shocked to see so many people think Hamlet is overrated. I even considered it at #1. There are a few things about Hamlet that make it amazingly powerful:

1. It's a massable 2 that provides its own +buy. Fool's Gold and Native Village need some other source of +buy to make them really useful, while Hamlet has it on its own. Hamlet+4 Coppers+Estate buys 2 more hamlets.

2. The ability to quickly infuse a large number of Hamlets into your deck give reliability to a +Cards/+Actions engine even without strong trashing, or even any trashing. And there's no issue of having too many Hamlets, since at worst you can use the extra ones as cantrips. The fact that it's a village, a source of +buy, and reduces/alleviates the need for trashing means it nearly enables engine strategies all on its own. The only thing it needs is a means of increasing handsize, which is a pretty common thing to find anyway.

3. Even if you're building an engine in another way that doesn't require Hamlet as a village, it's still a non-terminal +buy, which is useful in any engine.

I also don't understand why a "support" card can't be a "power" card. What defines a card as "support" anyway? If you're going Smithy+FG, which card is the "support" card?

To me, it doesn't make sense to say Courtyard can create a very strong deck "by itself". It's just that it has negative needs from the kingdom, rather than positive needs. Courtyard BM is good when there is a lack of attacks and extra VP cards in the kingdom, since then it can just speed through to half the points. But this is at least a strong a demand on the kingdom as needing it to contain a handsize-increasing card. So even though the only other cards you need in your deck are treasures, you still have other demands on the kingdom.

In kingdoms where it shows up, Hamlet is very often a key card (whether or not you want to call it a "power" card is up to arbitrary definition of "power", but it's a critical piece to the strongest strategy), and almost always at least a useful card. You can't really say the same for any of the other $2 cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #115 on: January 07, 2013, 12:24:28 pm »
0

Thank you, HME, for less concisely and more eloquently re-stating what I said :)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #116 on: January 07, 2013, 02:01:33 pm »
0

My point only was that Hamlet is a support card.
My point is NOT that support cards cannot be power cards. Support cards CAN be power cards.
Hamlet is both a support and a powerful card.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #117 on: January 07, 2013, 04:56:20 pm »
0

I'm shocked to see so many people think Hamlet is overrated. I even considered it at #1. There are a few things about Hamlet that make it amazingly powerful:

1. It's a massable 2 that provides its own +buy. Fool's Gold and Native Village need some other source of +buy to make them really useful, while Hamlet has it on its own. Hamlet+4 Coppers+Estate buys 2 more hamlets.

2. The ability to quickly infuse a large number of Hamlets into your deck give reliability to a +Cards/+Actions engine even without strong trashing, or even any trashing. And there's no issue of having too many Hamlets, since at worst you can use the extra ones as cantrips. The fact that it's a village, a source of +buy, and reduces/alleviates the need for trashing means it nearly enables engine strategies all on its own. The only thing it needs is a means of increasing handsize, which is a pretty common thing to find anyway.

3. Even if you're building an engine in another way that doesn't require Hamlet as a village, it's still a non-terminal +buy, which is useful in any engine.

I also don't understand why a "support" card can't be a "power" card. What defines a card as "support" anyway? If you're going Smithy+FG, which card is the "support" card?

To me, it doesn't make sense to say Courtyard can create a very strong deck "by itself". It's just that it has negative needs from the kingdom, rather than positive needs. Courtyard BM is good when there is a lack of attacks and extra VP cards in the kingdom, since then it can just speed through to half the points. But this is at least a strong a demand on the kingdom as needing it to contain a handsize-increasing card. So even though the only other cards you need in your deck are treasures, you still have other demands on the kingdom.

In kingdoms where it shows up, Hamlet is very often a key card (whether or not you want to call it a "power" card is up to arbitrary definition of "power", but it's a critical piece to the strongest strategy), and almost always at least a useful card. You can't really say the same for any of the other $2 cards.

Hamlet can be good, yes.  But it is extremely reliant on a +3 card, and even that is really tough as playing hamlet as a village plus a +3 card is still only the same as playing a Lab (albeit with a touch more cycling).  So, yes it's good with Torturer.  And other cards.

The fact of the matter is in many, many, many games, Hamlet could be one of a number of other villages and it wouldn't change it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #118 on: January 07, 2013, 05:20:45 pm »
0

You're totally missing that it can give +buy as well as +action. That's really huge for an engine. Like, if hamlet just had the discard for action option it'd be, like, Native Village level.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #119 on: January 07, 2013, 06:47:53 pm »
0

I didn't put in a list this time, since I've been busy, trying to wean myself off online Dominion, and didn't think I'd be fairly able to evaluate the Dark Ages cards since I haven't played them except for 2 IRL games once.

But this looks reasonably solid.  Poor House and Pawn feel like they're probably low, and both Fool's Gold and Haven are a smidge high for sure.  But there isn't anything else that stands out- you can rejigger the order below Beggar/Cellar, but they're all mediocre and none are truly awful, so who cares?

I love the idea of Poor House because I love treasureless decks, so my judgment may not be trustworthy there, and as for Pawn it gets back to flexibility, and that ever-so-crucial +Buy when you need it.  Haven is just not often that useful even when you buy it, and while Fool's Gold can be powerful more than I originally thought, it is still too fragile too often.  Eh, maybe it's still #5, but Attack games are frequent enough that those two need to be swapped at a minimum- with even mediocre attacks, Lighthouse vaults past FG for sure.  I think Haven might actually be the most misranked card here, actually.

Glad and a little surprised to see Hamlet > Courtyard still. I agree with HME's reasoning.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #120 on: January 08, 2013, 10:30:37 am »
0

I like Hamlet over Courtyard, especially now that dark ages is out (every new set that isn't base, intrigue, or maybe hinterlands skews things towards engines).

I sorta feel like Fool's Gold should be above Courtyard since Courtyard is a Big Money card and Fool's Gold often outplays Big Money on its own, usually requiring an engine to answer it. 
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #121 on: January 08, 2013, 02:37:49 pm »
+1

The fact of the matter is in many, many, many games, Hamlet could be one of a number of other villages and it wouldn't change it.

Surely any card that, in it's bad games, emulates other useful cards that cost more makes it great on it's own doesn't it?
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