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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition  (Read 59586 times)

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greatexpectations

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2012, 12:08:37 pm »
0

The usual way to do it is you ask people repeatedly about pairs of cards, then you use those pairwise comparisons to build a ranking. This is easy but costs lots of time because you need so many questions. Max diff is a way to do this and get more information per question: when you pick the best and worst of a b c d e you get a > b, a > c, a > d, a > e, b > e, c > e, and d > e all in one question.

didn't they do something like that in the facebook movie? rating women by comparing them against each other? we could always try setting up something similar for dominion cards. just have a page with category options by price point, and then display two cards, nothing else. user clicks to vote, and it refreshes a new random option. over time you could probably build a decent data set of comparisons. it would probably function well over time too, as new cards can be slotted in and it shouldn't affect previous head to head comparisons. this could also be easier/more fun than the slog of making a rank for the middle 80% of cards at a price point.

to clarify, it wouldnt have to replace these card lists at all, it could be done along side of them. i think that these lists are pretty sweet, even though im too lazy to contribute to them.
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theory

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2012, 12:10:05 pm »
0

The usual way to do it is you ask people repeatedly about pairs of cards, then you use those pairwise comparisons to build a ranking. This is easy but costs lots of time because you need so many questions. Max diff is a way to do this and get more information per question: when you pick the best and worst of a b c d e you get a > b, a > c, a > d, a > e, b > e, c > e, and d > e all in one question.

didn't they do something like that in the facebook movie? rating women by comparing them against each other? we could always try setting up something similar for dominion cards. just have a page with category options by price point, and then display two cards, nothing else. user clicks to vote, and it refreshes a new random option. over time you could probably build a decent data set of comparisons. it would probably function well over time too, as new cards can be slotted in and it shouldn't affect previous head to head comparisons. this could also be easier/more fun than the slog of making a rank for the middle 80% of cards at a price point.

to clarify, it wouldnt have to replace these card lists at all, it could be done along side of them. i think that these lists are pretty sweet, even though im too lazy to contribute to them.

Yes, it's exactly that, but the idea is that if you have multiple options, you get significantly more data at not much extra cost.  Even just making it three options gives you tons of data.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2012, 12:21:43 pm »
+1

didn't they do something like that in the facebook movie? rating women by comparing them against each other?

I'm planning to program a facemesh style little app for this, but had no time for it so far.

That's exactly what I was refering to.

greatexpectations

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2012, 12:24:47 pm »
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I'm planning to program a facemesh style little app for this, but had no time for it so far.

That's exactly what I was refering to.

wooooow, it seems i'm asleep at the wheel today. totally missed that, my bad. that would be great to see!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2012, 04:34:46 pm »
+3

Alright, here's my cleaned-up user-friendly Dominion Card Sorter. You can use it to sort any of the card lists, including all card, ruins, knights, and prizes. Just run "python DominionCardSorter.py" and everything else should be self-explanatory from there!

(It uses the built-in Python sorting algorithm, which sometimes asks you for the same comparison twice, so don't worry if that happens.)
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theory

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2012, 04:42:20 pm »
+1

How hard would it be to make a web interface for that?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2012, 04:49:05 pm »
+1

How hard would it be to make a web interface for that?

For someone who knows something about web interfaces? Probably easy. For me? Hard. That code is way open source, so if anyone wants to give it a shot, be my guest.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2012, 05:19:36 pm »
+2

Like I said, I will probably make that into a web interface next time, but not this time, sorry.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2012, 05:37:57 pm »
0

I still don't really like the favourite cards system, even the rating version. Is it not possible to rank only a top 10 / top 20 next time ? With a system like 10 points for the 1st, 9 for the 2nd, etc.
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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2012, 05:43:26 pm »
+2

I vastly preferred the rating to the ordered for the favorites.  192 cards is too much to try and put in an ordered list, especially since the whole thing lags.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2012, 05:44:28 pm »
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I submitted mine yesterday but I'm already regretting some of my rankings of Dark Ages cards. Oh well.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2012, 05:56:34 pm »
+1

I submitted mine yesterday but I'm already regretting some of my rankings of Dark Ages cards. Oh well.

For the $4s and $5s, I would only trust my top and bottom rankings.  Everything in the middle is just "whatever, I'll put it there, there are too many of these."
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2012, 06:06:08 pm »
0

I vastly preferred the rating to the ordered for the favorites.  192 cards is too much to try and put in an ordered list, especially since the whole thing lags.

I submitted mine yesterday but I'm already regretting some of my rankings of Dark Ages cards. Oh well.

For the $4s and $5s, I would only trust my top and bottom rankings.  Everything in the middle is just "whatever, I'll put it there, there are too many of these."

Use my Python sorter! It helps to think of comparing 2 cards, since that is often easier to do than placing a card into a partially completed list.
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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2012, 06:23:57 pm »
+1

I vastly preferred the rating to the ordered for the favorites.  192 cards is too much to try and put in an ordered list, especially since the whole thing lags.

I submitted mine yesterday but I'm already regretting some of my rankings of Dark Ages cards. Oh well.

For the $4s and $5s, I would only trust my top and bottom rankings.  Everything in the middle is just "whatever, I'll put it there, there are too many of these."

Use my Python sorter! It helps to think of comparing 2 cards, since that is often easier to do than placing a card into a partially completed list.

Too late.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2012, 06:59:39 pm »
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I updated my sorter to remove the expansion name from the cards.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2012, 11:45:17 pm »
0

I vastly preferred the rating to the ordered for the favorites.  192 cards is too much to try and put in an ordered list, especially since the whole thing lags.

I submitted mine yesterday but I'm already regretting some of my rankings of Dark Ages cards. Oh well.

For the $4s and $5s, I would only trust my top and bottom rankings.  Everything in the middle is just "whatever, I'll put it there, there are too many of these."

Use my Python sorter! It helps to think of comparing 2 cards, since that is often easier to do than placing a card into a partially completed list.

Thanks for coming with that. I wish I knew about it ahead of time, but for next time, I am sure it will come in quite handy.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #66 on: December 21, 2012, 04:01:31 am »
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How hard would it be to make a web interface for that?

I don't really understand this Python thing, but the common way to do pairwise comparisons is to use simple tables (which, however, might become quite big): Something like this:



Don't really know if this would make things easier...
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hsiale

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #67 on: December 21, 2012, 04:05:22 am »
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Just run "python DominionCardSorter.py" and everything else should be self-explanatory from there!
I have downloaded Python 3.3 and your file. I tried to run it the way described in http://mail.python.org/pipermail/tutor/2004-July/030634.html - when I hit Enter I see a black window appear for a moment and then nothing happens. I'm on Windows XP. What am I doing wrong?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #68 on: December 21, 2012, 08:36:42 am »
+1

How hard would it be to make a web interface for that?

I don't really understand this Python thing, but the common way to do pairwise comparisons is to use simple tables (which, however, might become quite big): Something like this:



Don't really know if this would make things easier...

The problem with this is that it requires about n^2 comparisons, where n is the number of cards. A good sorting algorithm runs in n*log(n) time, which is what the Python program does, which means you don't have to give it near as many comparisons.
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Schneau

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #69 on: December 21, 2012, 08:40:16 am »
+1

Just run "python DominionCardSorter.py" and everything else should be self-explanatory from there!
I have downloaded Python 3.3 and your file. I tried to run it the way described in http://mail.python.org/pipermail/tutor/2004-July/030634.html - when I hit Enter I see a black window appear for a moment and then nothing happens. I'm on Windows XP. What am I doing wrong?

The first problem is that I wrote it in Python 2.7, which isn't compatible with Python 3.3, so it's probably getting errors. I'd recommend downloading Python 2.7.

Next, instead of running on the command line in Windows (since it's a pain), I'd recommend opening IDLE, a Python interpreter GUI that comes with Python. Click Start -> Programs ->Python 2.7 -> IDLE (Python GUI). Then, click File -> New Window, paste in the program, save it somewhere, and then click Run -> Run Module. It will then run the program, and output your results so you can copy and paste them.

If you're on Mac or Linux, it's easy to just run it from command line by doing "python DominionCardSorter.py", as long as you have a Python 2.x.
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AdamH

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #70 on: December 21, 2012, 09:09:11 am »
+1

I used a bucket sort method in Excel.

I put each card name to be ranked in a row, then gave it a number:

1 for good
2 for meh
3 for bad

had Excel sort it, then for each group (bucket), repeated the process. I usually just divided each bucket into two groups each time until it got down to six or less in a group, then I just ranked them in order.

Even for the $5 cards, it only took 4 iterations. For the Favorite cards it took 5 (I started with 4 buckets for the first iteration there).

For each cost category, I'd say my error was +/- 2 slots. For the favorites, maybe 5.
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Schneau

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #71 on: December 21, 2012, 09:47:16 am »
+1

I used a bucket sort method in Excel.

I put each card name to be ranked in a row, then gave it a number:

1 for good
2 for meh
3 for bad

had Excel sort it, then for each group (bucket), repeated the process. I usually just divided each bucket into two groups each time until it got down to six or less in a group, then I just ranked them in order.

Even for the $5 cards, it only took 4 iterations. For the Favorite cards it took 5 (I started with 4 buckets for the first iteration there).

For each cost category, I'd say my error was +/- 2 slots. For the favorites, maybe 5.

That's a good way too! Bucket sort is efficient if you can define good buckets.
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chwhite

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2012, 07:43:40 pm »
+1

While I hate to stifle discussions, wouldn't it be better if we didn't discuss what we were ranking where?  Otherwise we could end up with a kind of group-think which isn't really the idea.

Agreed.  All conversation about why Scout should be ranked last needs to stop. <snicker>

Couldn't help it, sorry Piemaster.

It does need to stop.  'Cause it's inaccurate.  :P

(Sorry, couldn't help myself.  Actually just yesterday I got good use out of Scout in a Scrying Pool-Baron deck, so there.)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2012, 10:42:34 pm »
0

.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 12:31:15 pm by () | (_) ^/ »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition
« Reply #74 on: December 24, 2012, 09:14:16 pm »
0

Just run "python DominionCardSorter.py" and everything else should be self-explanatory from there!
I have downloaded Python 3.3 and your file. I tried to run it the way described in http://mail.python.org/pipermail/tutor/2004-July/030634.html - when I hit Enter I see a black window appear for a moment and then nothing happens. I'm on Windows XP. What am I doing wrong?

The first problem is that I wrote it in Python 2.7, which isn't compatible with Python 3.3, so it's probably getting errors. I'd recommend downloading Python 2.7.

Next, instead of running on the command line in Windows (since it's a pain), I'd recommend opening IDLE, a Python interpreter GUI that comes with Python. Click Start -> Programs ->Python 2.7 -> IDLE (Python GUI). Then, click File -> New Window, paste in the program, save it somewhere, and then click Run -> Run Module. It will then run the program, and output your results so you can copy and paste them.

If you're on Mac or Linux, it's easy to just run it from command line by doing "python DominionCardSorter.py", as long as you have a Python 2.x.

I have a Mac and I can't figure it out :/
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