Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[-Stef-]

When playing engine against engine, thinking about the end conditions of the game is very important. Piles will usually run low, and maybe I can sneak out a victory or need to be very careful my opponent doesn't. At some point I should have a firm idea whether I'm looking for a three-pile or plan to run out the provinces.

However, playing an engine against a BigMoney variant (or a significantly lesser developed engine), there is another possible answer to this question: I don't want the game to end at all. Off course at some point it's inevitable, but I know the longer it takes the better it is for me.

In general, when you build an engine, you invest some turns to get a more powerful deck. The last couple of turns will be your strongest ones. A BigMoney deck has its strongest turns midgame, and their final stage where the deck will slowly start choking on green cards is much longer. So the first and foremost notion is that the concept of choking was built-in into dominion by the legendary Donald X. If they start greening, their deck will get worse all by itself. All I have to help this effect grow.

This immediately brings us to the most effective strategy: If I don't have to buy any Provinces myself, and my opponent can't end it on piles. The effect will be exponential: the 3rd, 4th, 5th or even 6th Province is a lot easier to buy then number 7 or 8. Gaining huge amounts of VP chips is the perfect strategy here, but almost as nice are Fairgrounds and Vineyards. Anything that allows you not to buy Provinces and yet score points will do. Dukes, Silk Roads, Gardens or Colonies are not so hot in this context, because they are a very good option for the BigMoney player too. Harems and Great Halls just aren't worth enough to really make a difference. Nobles aren't so clear.

If your plan is to make them choke due to buying Provinces / greening, do not join them in the Province race. Very carefully calculate the minimum amount of provinces you need yourself, and plan for a big turn where you end the game while buying exactly those (preferably 1 Province).

A completely different plan can be to play a certain attack over and over again. Ghost ship is famous here, but just about anything can work (Militia, Rabble, but even Bureaucrat, Thief & Spy). Saboteur is not in this list, because that usually enables them to end the game on piles. Ghost ship can backfire if they only need one or two more provinces, but if you're a little bit earlier this is the best.

Cards that prevent choking come in different categories.

• Salvager, Remodel and Apprentice allow the BigMoney player to trade provinces for new ones (or just gold for provinces).
• Jack Of All Trades doesn't care much for any attacks you may sling at him. Due to the huge amount of silvers, the deck will never really choke on green either.
• Hoard and Haggler allow the BigMoney player to gain money while buying green.
• Embassy and to some extend Warehouse allow them to keep going on despite a lot of green cards
• Courtyard allows them to pair their golds/silvers to get up to $8

A special star for the engine player is Embargo. I feel this card is quite underplayed in this manner. If you get an early embargo on golds, you'll have a lot more time. After that it can be a pretty lousy engine and still win. Usually an embargoed pile is not that much a problem for the engine player, because he has other ways of acquiring cards then buying them, or ways to get rid of the curses later on.

Making them choke on green can be especially effective against an apothecary deck. More then any others, those decks are very good at buying the first few provinces, but then it stops rather dramatically.

I never mentioned cursers here, even though they have a very clear impact on the speed of the game. Not really at the end though, more at the start or midgame. Therefore I just declare it out-of-scope for this article.

Some sample games

• This is a very clear cut case. I don't need to buy any provinces to gain points, *and* I get to play the horrifying Ghost Ship over and over again.
• In this game my turn 8 buy took me quite a while. I'm faced $8 for the first time and I don't dare to dip into provinces just yet. With both Fairgrounds and Silk Roads on the board, Rabid can make sure this game doesn't end before I eat the entire provinces pile. A turn later, when he actually helps me start the dinner, I decide to go for it anyway. In the discussion after the game we both agree that both his Provinces should have been Fairgrounds, because Silk Roads were more viable for him then for me (still having the starting Estates) and with two hoards to my one he would benefit from the longer game
• Here I take a bit too long to set up my engine. But by staying out of the provinces (even though I really want points and have something like $15 and one buy) I manage to create just enough time to get there.
• Finally in this tournament game I make some mistakes early in the game, but I can use Fairgrounds to take the game really long. He needs to buy a 7th province to win, and that one comes too late.

[WanderingWinder]

• Finally, in this game I take a bit too long setting up my engine. But by staying out of the provinces completely (even though I really want points and have something like $15 and one buy) I manage to create just enough time to get there.

I can't BELIEVE you would post a game in which I played so poorly...

But seriously, nice article. I don't use the term stalling as you do (I use it synonymously with choking on green, basically - you stall out), but I have tried to get this point across before, as it's extremely important stuff for both the engine player and the Big Money opponent, and you do it pretty well here. I'd also mention Apprentice along with salvager and rebuild with cards that allow stalling choking-on-green players to power though to the end of the game. Funnily enough, I'm not so sure that your exemplar second game is really an example of this phenomenon so much. But your general point is of course quite good.

[Warrior]

Thanks for the article -Stef-. You cover a lot of great points and this info is very helpful for an engine builder to have.

[dondon151]

I don't think Rabid had much of chance in game 2 even if he ignored the Provinces entirely. Particularly if, for example, one of your Province/Duchy buys were Province/Stables instead, I don't think you would have had any trouble powering through 2 more Provinces.

[Rabid]

My mistake in the game was not having a terminal action I think.
I was going for Trading Post, then changed my mind.
So I should have picked up an early Woodcutter.

[DG]

Yes this article confused me at first since I was reading it as stalling/choking instead of stalling/delaying.

I think some discussion of endgame options could be interesting since stalling can work two ways. Generally you want to buy your vp as efficiently as possible such as buying one province instead of two duchies. Once one player has a lead in vp the opponent can sometimes be unable to buy vp efficiently since that would empty piles to the leader's advantage. Stalling can cause that problem. On the other hand a deck that is better prepared through stalling can be better prepared to pursue the 'less efficient' vp strategies, so some foresight can manage the problem. A stalled deck will often also have better options for emptying piles on the last turn since it will probably have more buys and gains.

I'm also wondering if there might be a relatively simple example deck you could use to demonstrate available options. A small alchemist deck could buy provinces when at 8 coins, stall until able to get an extra alchemist and province each turn with an extra buy, or stall until double province turns.

[TWoos]

Since stalling has the meaning of an engine that has stopped working, idling would probably be a more intuitive term.

[GendoIkari]

I have actually seen Ghost Ship sometimes help the player who's being stalled, however. If you have 5 or 6 Provinces in your deck, it can be near impossible to draw 2 Golds and a Silver together. However, if your opponent is playing Ghost Ship every turn, then simply put your Golds and Silvers back on top. After a few turns, you should have 2 Golds and a Silver, at which point you only need 3 cards to get another Province. Sure it's still slow, but without the Ghost Ship being played, it could have been even longer until you hit $8.

[jomini]

First, in addition to Rebuild, Salvager, and Apprentice the following also can let you avoid stalling, though not as easily:
1. Bishop. Trade 1 VP for a quicker deck. This isn't too hot in straight BM games, but Bishop can be added in with a mid game 4 coin buy and let you make some VP of your own. Bishop can be absolutely phenomenal against stalling tactics in 3er or higher.
2. Remodel/Expand/Forge. Normally terrible with BM-type games, but an opportunistic buy mid-late game can give you good odds of burning a province and preserving a win. Also, these types of cards can be very strong for picking up duchies and province from low treasure hands (e.g. Forge Estate + Silver -> duchy late game).
3. Green enabling cards like Xroads (yeah normally crappy in BM), Storeroom (e.g. Storeroom/Tunnel doesn't slow down much), Cellar, Horse Traders, etc. can all let you stall less as you green.
4. Tactician. BM-Tac isn't as much fun as all the double-Tac options, but it is a beast at getting province hands regardless of what is thrown at it (of course, you do have to pitch every other hand ...)
5. Like Hoard, Haggler can make greening fairly painless. Buy a province, gain gold, buy a duchy, gain a silver, and of course buy a colony, gain a plat.

Remember if you are both going engine, things like Xroads, Haggler, Remodel, etc. can be very good for you to go off now (and risk stalling out your own engine) in order to force the other guy to change tactics (either because you can burn VP or because you both have a VP-lead and present a 3-pile threat now).


Secondly, another key play with embargo can be to embargo the provinces. This reduces their payout in most BM setups to 5 VP per province, making it that much easier for you to bulk up your dukes or whatever and get more points. Even better, each province they buy doubles the effective deck clogging - their 3rd province has now introduced 6 dead cards. Even if you plan to buy down the provinces when your engine finally fires, you will spend fewer turns with a clogged deck and that clogging can buy you enough time to win. The downside of this approach is that it can encourage your opponent to try to poach your alt-VP.

Thirdly, another stall helper is masq, particularly if you can couple it with attacks. As their deck gets greener, the odds that they will have a hand of all VP/strong cards goes up so you can hit them hard by forcing them to chose between sending a silver (copper if you can pass them something really useless to them like a curse, ruin, pearl diver, or ambassador)  so they miss a province/other VP hand or send over their VP directly. This works best with discarding attacks, not so well with junkers like sea hag or cultist, and can be decent with top deck muckers (particularly B-crat, Rabble, and Fortune Teller). Often, just the THREAT of masq can force a player to alter play more towards a longer game - keep Copper/Gold/Gold rather than Gold x3 in case you play a Masq when they are trying to buy province 7.

[ashersky]

On word choice, I think you could just extend it:

Playing Engines -- Stalling for Time

Or...Delaying, Hindering, filibustering...

[Davio]

On word choice, I think you could just extend it:

Playing Engines -- Stalling for Time

Or...Delaying, Hindering, filibustering...

I'd go with: Prolonging

Especially because of Merriam-Webster's definition:

prolonging present participle of pro·long (Verb)

Verb
Extend the duration of: "an idea that prolonged the life of the engine by many years"

[meandering mercury]

I'm not often a contributor to these forums, but I had been toying with the idea of writing an article along similar lines, in comparing money to engine strategies. I think the basic principle here (and one that I would nominate for your title) is:

Engines Need Time

Creating time by avoiding provinces, embargoing gold/province, etc., building up to an attack per turn, is an important facet of creating an engine. You really *want* and *need* the other player to stall (this is different from "Playing engines - Stalling" because it sounds like the engine player is stalling). At the same time, you want another source of points besides provinces. Otherwise, once the treasure player reaches 6 provinces, you are usually (certainly not always) toast. You cover both these points in your article.

For the same reason, Colonies are a great enabler for engines.

If "Engines Need Time" is too broad for you, you could go with:

Playing Engines -- Prolonging the Game [Davio, I think adding "the Game" makes it sound better]

Engines Versus Money -- The Stall [since your article seems to basically cover this matchup? Engine vs Engine plays by different principles in my mind]

Playing Engines -- Stalling for Time [is fine by my ear too]

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

The OP and a subsequent post mention Rebuild.  Is this a card in Dark Ages (which I've not seen), or is it a translation back into English for a card like Remodel?

[Qvist]

The OP and a subsequent post mention Rebuild.  Is this a card in Dark Ages (which I've not seen), or is it a translation back into English for a card like Remodel?

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Rebuild

[-Stef-]

The OP and a subsequent post mention Rebuild.  Is this a card in Dark Ages (which I've not seen), or is it a translation back into English for a card like Remodel?

I finally got around to editing this article. And I was trying to talk about Remodel indeed, thanks.

I dislike the Goko interface so strongly I haven't come around to playing with Dark Ages yet. But my plan is to buy an actual copy of DA today and give it to a friend of mine, so who knows... maybe the next time I write "Rebuild" I actually mean rebuild