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Author Topic: When do cards do things  (Read 12323 times)

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AJD

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When do cards do things
« on: September 12, 2012, 01:42:50 pm »
+2

So okay, Dominion has about 206 differently-named cards that do things when you play them, and 17 cards that affect your score at the end of the game. But of course there are lots of cards that have effects at other times, that can be triggered by a variety of different causes, sometimes when the cards themselves whose effects are being triggered are otherwise just sitting there minding their own business. For instance, whenever any player plays an attack card, in order to resolve all relevant effects, the gamestate (i.e., the players, or Isotropic or Goko or any other implementation) has to check whether they have Urchin in play and whether anyone else has Moat, Horse Traders, Secret Chamber, or Beggar in hand or Lighthouse in play. When anyone reshuffles, the gamestate has to check whether they have Stash in their deck. And so on.

I thought it might be interesting to make a list of all the different times, other than on-play, at which a card can have an effect. I don't promise I didn't miss any triggers, or just plain miscount (and some of the triggers are rephrased a bit with respect to how they actually appear on the cards). But this list gives a general idea of just how often the game, in principle, requires you to stop and check whether something is going to happen.

How many cards act...?

Before the start of the game: 5
When you shuffle: 1
At the start of your turn: 8
When you would play this: 1
When you play an attack card: 6
When you discard this other than during a clean-up phase: 1
When you trash...
...this: 9
...another card: 2
When you buy...
...this: 7
...another card: 7
When you would gain...
...this: 1
...another card: 2
When you gain...
...this: 7
...another card: 4
At the start of your clean-up phase: 2
When you discard from play...
...this: 4
...another card: 1
When you would draw during your cleanup phase: 1
At the end of your turn: 1
After the end of your turn: 2

While this is in the supply: 1
While this is in play: 12
While something else is in play: 1
Once this has been played, until the end of the game: 1
During your buy phase: 1
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 05:45:33 pm by AJD »
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werothegreat

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2012, 01:49:20 pm »
+1

Which card does something when you would play it?
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2012, 01:51:47 pm »
+1

I think that's Band of Misfits.
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michaeljb

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2012, 02:13:05 pm »
0

At the start of your turn should be 8 instead of 7; the 7 Duration card that aren't Outpost and Horse Traders when its Reaction is set off.

There's also when another player buys a card from Embargo. Don't know how you'd count that exactly, because it's not exactly when you buy this.

Haven't looked too closely at the list yet, might take another look later.

ps what's "Once this has been played, until the end of the game"?
edit: Island?
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2012, 02:19:50 pm »
0

At the start of your turn should be 8 instead of 7; the 7 Duration card that aren't Outpost and Horse Traders when its Reaction is set off.

Yep, forgot Horse Traders. Thanks!

Quote
There's also when another player buys a card from Embargo. Don't know how you'd count that exactly, because it's not exactly when you buy this.

That's counted under "When you buy... another card": when you buy a card, you check whether it's been embargoed and act accordingly.

Quote
ps what's "Once this has been played, until the end of the game"?
edit: Island?

That's also Embargo (and one of the cases where I've rephrased the trigger a bit). The real effect of Embargo, after all, is "choose a pile in the Supply. // From now till the end of the game, when a player buys a card from that pile, he gains a Curse"; the tokens are just for keeping track.
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GendoIkari

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 02:42:35 pm »
0

I think you should list out the actual cards (unless you intended this to have a puzzle element of us figuring them out). Also, I'm interested to know which card appears in the most categories.

What card is when you would gain this?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 02:43:52 pm by GendoIkari »
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2012, 02:46:58 pm »
0

I think you should list out the actual cards (unless you intended this to have a puzzle element of us figuring them out). Also, I'm interested to know which card appears in the most categories.

Okay, I can probably do that. I'll have to look through the list of cards again, since I didn't take notes the first time.

Quote
What card is when you would gain this?

Nomad Camp. It says "When you gain this, put it on top of your deck," but the actual effect is really something more like "When you would gain this, gain it and put it on top of your deck."
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2012, 02:59:15 pm »
+1

This could be a fun sporcle.
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2012, 03:01:34 pm »
+2

Before the start of the game: 5 (Baker, Black Market, Knights, Rats, Young Witch)
When you shuffle: 1 (Stash)
At the start of your turn: 8 (Caravan, Fishing Village, Haven, Horse Traders, Lighthouse, Merchant Ship, Tactician, Wharf)
When you would play this: 1 (Band of Misfits)
When you play an attack card: 6 (Beggar, Horse Traders, Lighthouse, Moat, Secret Chamber, Urchin)
When you discard this other than during a clean-up phase: 1 (Tunnel)
When you trash...
...this: 9 (Catacombs, Cultist, Feodum, Fortress, Hunting Grounds, Overgrown Estate, Rats, Sir Vander, Squire)
...another card: 2 (Market Square, Possession)
When you buy...
...this: 7 (Doctor, Farmland, Herald, Masterpiece, Mint, Noble Brigand, Stonemason)
...another card: 7 (Embargo, Goons, Haggler, Hoard, Hovel, Merchant Guild, Talisman)
When you would gain...
...this: 1 (Nomad Camp)
...another card: 2 (Possession, Trader)
When you gain...
...this: 7 (Border Village, Cache, Death Cart, Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains, Inn, Mandarin)
...another card: 4 (Duchess, Fool's Gold, Royal Seal, Watchtower)
At the start of your clean-up phase: 2 (Scheme, Walled Village)
When you discard from play...
...this: 4 (Alchemist, Herbalist, Hermit, Treasury)
...another card: 1 (Scheme)
When you would draw during your cleanup phase: 1 (Outpost)
At the end of your turn: 1 (Possession)
After the end of your turn: 2 (Outpost, Possession)

While this is in the supply: 1 (Duchess)
While this is in play: 12 (Band of Misfits, Goons, Haggler, Highway, Hoard, Lighthouse, Merchant Guild, Princess, Quarry, Royal Seal, Talisman, Urchin)
While something else is in play: 1 (Grand Market)
Once this has been played, until the end of the game: 1 (Embargo)
During your buy phase: 1 (Peddler)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 05:45:04 pm by AJD »
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GendoIkari

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2012, 03:03:38 pm »
0

Thanks! "When you play an attack card" should be "when an opponent plays an attack card." (Except Urchin)
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2012, 03:06:09 pm »
0

Not sure if this is an actual rule or just reminder text, but Island does something "at the end of the game," it returns all cards to your deck.
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2012, 03:08:55 pm »
0

Thanks! "When you play an attack card" should be "when an opponent plays an attack card." (Except Urchin)

When you play an attack card, everyone else may reveal Moat etc.
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michaeljb

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2012, 03:09:14 pm »
0

Nomad Camp. It says "When you gain this, put it on top of your deck," but the actual effect is really something more like "When you would gain this, gain it and put it on top of your deck."

So what are the two "when you would gain another card" cards? I can think of at least three that fit your criteria: Trader, Mine, and Armory. Actually Graverobber, Tournament, and Develop too.

But to be honest, I don't really agree that these (except for Trader) qualify as "would gain." It looks to me like (correct me if I'm wrong of course) you see "gaining a card" as meaning "take the card from its appropriate pile and put it in your Discard pile. I think it's more like going to the Discard is the default destination for gaining, not that going to the Discard is an inherent part of gaining.

Quote from: Dark Ages Rulebook
When a card is gained to a location other than a discard pile, it does not "visit" the discard pile - it goes directly to where it was gained. For example Armory gains cards directly to the top of a deck.


edit: OK just saw your update where you actually put in which cards you were counting, and I see "would gain another card" are correctly Possession (which of course I forgot about :P) and Trader. I'm still not sure I agree that Nomad Camp belongs with "would gain" while the others don't...

And Trade Route sort of acts before the start of the game--it puts a coin token on each Victory pile.

[edit to remove double post]
Not sure if this is an actual rule or just reminder text, but Island does something "at the end of the game," it returns all cards to your deck.

Native Village does too. And I guess Haven implicitly does?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 03:12:31 pm by michaeljb »
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2012, 03:12:18 pm »
0

Not sure if this is an actual rule or just reminder text, but Island does something "at the end of the game," it returns all cards to your deck.

Horse Traders and any cards set aside with Haven are also returned to your deck if still set aside when the game ends, so I think we have to regard "return set-aside cards to deck at end of game" to be a general rule, and not something Island and Native Village specifically do. So yeah, I was regarding that as reminder text.
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2012, 03:49:16 pm »
0

edit: OK just saw your update where you actually put in which cards you were counting, and I see "would gain another card" are correctly Possession (which of course I forgot about :P) and Trader. I'm still not sure I agree that Nomad Camp belongs with "would gain" while the others don't...

So, think about it in terms of pseudocode. So for instance Jack contains
Code: [Select]
gain(card="Silver")and Bureaucrat contains
Code: [Select]
gain(card="Silver",target="deck")The only way to gain a card to someplace other than your discard pile is through the target argument of the gain instruction. But what happens when you try to gain a Nomad Camp normally? I.e., you run
Code: [Select]
gain(card="Nomad Camp")with no target argument, which for any other card would put it in your discard, and somehow it goes straight to your deck anyway. In other words, the instruction above is prevented from being carried out, and replaced with
Code: [Select]
gain(card="Nomad Camp",target="deck")The only way for that to work systematically is if Nomad Camp carries a would-gain stipulation that replaces any gain of it with a gain-to-deck.

Quote
And Trade Route sort of acts before the start of the game--it puts a coin token on each Victory pile.

Yeah, sort of—I'm considering that as similar to Embargo; the tokens are only for keeping track, and the real effect of the card is just "+$1 per Victory pile in the supply from which at least one card has been gained".
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Young Nick

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2012, 03:49:43 pm »
0

It seems like Tournament might create another phase (checking for Provinces). Also, cards that interact with the Trash pile might be worth mentioning - Grave Robber was what I had in mind. Not really too sure, but this is a cool thought exercise.
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2012, 03:58:05 pm »
0

It seems like Tournament might create another phase (checking for Provinces).

Nah, that's just an effect of Tournament that happens when you play Tournament. This list is of cards that have effects that take place other than when the cards are played.

Quote
Also, cards that interact with the Trash pile might be worth mentioning - Grave Robber was what I had in mind.

Again, though, interacting with the Trash isn't when something happens. The cards that interact with the trash, like Graverobber, Rogue, and Forager, just do so when you play them.

Quote
Not really too sure, but this is a cool thought exercise.

Thanks!
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2012, 04:04:29 pm »
0

(Nomad Camp is one card whose effect doesn't actually take place at the time the card says it does. Another is Band of Misfits: if you read it the way cards are normally read, it would have you play it and then choose another card to play it as and play it again, which—as hashed out at length in another thread—is not what happens. A third is Noble Brigand, which has a 'when you play this' clause. If you interpreted that the same way you interpret other when-play instructions, Noble Brigand would seem to trigger at the same time as Urchin, and <a href="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4535.msg104666#msg104666">therefore</a> before other players' Secret Chambers and so on, which is obviously wrong. Thus "when you play this" on an Attack card is not actually interpreted as meaning the same timing as "when you play an Attack card" on another card.)
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Davio

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2012, 04:25:41 pm »
+1

This reminds me of a game manual from Fantasy Flight Games.

"You have 10 phases.
Before, during, or after a phase you can play some cards."

Just check the rules for The Lord of the Rings card game if you don't believe me. :)
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2012, 02:37:58 am »
0

Oh, I guess Rats also has a special setup rule, even though it's not stated on the card.
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Octo

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2012, 08:27:17 am »
0

Yeah I was about to mention Rats. It's not really event-based at all as far as I'm concerned so shouldn't be in the list. It's just there happens to be more Rats cards than normal. I don't see it as "on setup, take 20 rats cards", it's just plain "take the rats cards" like everything else. The rulebook just clarifies that, yes, there are 20 rats cards. If you are going to include rats then you should consider the VPs too, which really actually do have on-setup rules (8/12 in the stack).
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2012, 08:52:21 am »
+1

Yeah I was about to mention Rats. It's not really event-based at all as far as I'm concerned so shouldn't be in the list. It's just there happens to be more Rats cards than normal. I don't see it as "on setup, take 20 rats cards", it's just plain "take the rats cards" like everything else. The rulebook just clarifies that, yes, there are 20 rats cards. If you are going to include rats then you should consider the VPs too, which really actually do have on-setup rules (8/12 in the stack).

The basic Dominion rules say "select 10 Kingdom cards and place 10 of each in face-up piles on the table" (and then explain that Victory cards use a different number). Rats is an exception to the second half of this rule, and that's just a special property of the Rats card (whereas Victory cards are conforming to a general rule that is stated in the basic rulebook). So I feel like the fact that Rats makes you put 20 copies in the kingdom in order to set up a game using Rats is not too different from the fact that Young Witch makes you put 11 piles in the kingdom.
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2012, 09:29:09 am »
0

How about the Looters then? They probably should qualify as well since they add the additional Ruins pile.
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2012, 09:49:47 am »
0

How about the Looters then? They probably should qualify as well since they add the additional Ruins pile.

That's in the general Dark Ages rules, not a property of specific cards.
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Octo

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2012, 11:11:08 am »
0

So Looters don't count because they're in the general rules for an expansion, but Durations cards do count because ... ? :) Seems to me that's the normal action of that card type, not a property of specific cards. Had they not been labelled duration, then well that would be different. But they were. Edit: then again, the duration cards do actually specify on themselves "do this stuff next turn", the rule about Duration cards is only that they stay in play until they've got no useful effects left. Hmm.

Regarding Rats: I didn't realise the wording was that specific, that's interesting. If you're going to include them then you should probably include Knights cards too as you have to shuffle them before you play.

If you're including Black Market, then surely Spoils cards, Hermit, Tournament and Urchin count in 'Before the start of the game' too? They all make you add a non-supply pile of some description like Black Market.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 12:53:38 pm by Octo »
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2012, 01:50:40 pm »
0

So Looters don't count because they're in the general rules for an expansion, but Durations cards do count because ... ? :) Seems to me that's the normal action of that card type, not a property of specific cards. Had they not been labelled duration, then well that would be different. But they were. Edit: then again, the duration cards do actually specify on themselves "do this stuff next turn", the rule about Duration cards is only that they stay in play until they've got no useful effects left. Hmm.

Yeah, your edit is right. And remember, we're talking about times at which an effect of a card activates. Every time it's the start of your turn, you have to ask "Did I play a Caravan last turn? Did I play a Wharf last turn?" and so forth, and execute the appropriate effects if you did. In principle, although none does, a Duration card could say "At the beginning of your next turn's buy phase..." or "When you trash a card next turn..." or whatever. (And note Outpost doesn't have an effect at the start of a turn.)

Quote
Regarding Rats: I didn't realise the wording was that specific, that's interesting. If you're going to include them then you should probably include Knights cards too as you have to shuffle them before you play.

Hmm, good point. I'll think about that.

Quote
If you're including Black Market, then surely Spoils cards, Hermit, Tournament and Urchin count in 'Before the start of the game' too? They all make you add a non-supply pile of some description like Black Market.

But Spoils, Madman, Mercenary, and the Prizes could in principle stay in the box with no setup at all, and only be fetched when someone actually needs to gain one. With Black Market, you have to choose which actual cards are in the Black Market deck, and you have to do that before the game begins, because the choice affects gameplay.
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2013, 08:46:41 am »
0

I know this thread is old, but I finally put AJD's list in the wiki

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Triggered_events

It's not finished, so feel free to make any changes and additions.

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2013, 02:35:09 am »
0

I'm in the process of writing my own silly list which is kind of related to this. So the wiki article was useful to me. There are some things I don't agree with though.

Possession is listed under "when you trash a card" ("The card is set aside and returned to the discard pile at end of turn"). Here it's from the perspective of the player being Possessed. But under "when another player would gain a card", "at the end of the turn", and "after this turn" it's from the perspective of the Possessor. Not sure how to fix it, but it should be made clearer.

In games using this, when you buy a card
Embargo, Hovel: Why "in games using this"? Hovel can only be trashed from your hand if it's in your hand, and Embargo's Curse gaining happens from the tokens, not Embargo itself being in the game.

State timers
I don't find it useful to view "while this is in play" as a trigger. I suppose it could be shorthand for a "when this enters play" trigger pluss a "when this leaves play" trigger (with the first event describing the change and the second describing the reversal). But I think it's better to think of it as describing a state. I call it a state timer. The same goes for "during your buy phase" and "in games using this".
Goons has the state timer "while this is in play". The state is that the trigger "when you buy a card" is in effect, which it isn't at other times. Highway has the same state timer, but the state is just cost reduction. Bridge has the state timer "for the rest of your turn", and the state is cost reduction too. The state timer itself is in effect when Bridge is played.

Most states are that some event trigger is in effect, but some don't have anything to do with event triggers: Peddler, Highway, Princess, Quarry, Band of Misfits (under the "while this is in play" heading).

I'd also argue that Lighthouse doesn't have the "when another player plays an Attack card" trigger, in spite of the wording. No event actually triggers when another player plays an Attack. Instead it just has the "while this is in play" state that Attacks don't affect you. Moat also has that state, lasting for the rest of the particular Attack, but only coming into effect when you reveal Moat as part of the event triggered by the "when another player plays an Attack card" trigger.

Watchtower: The "if this is in your hand" header seems pointless for Watchtower. It's simply "when you gain a card", just like Royal Seal, although Royal Seal also has the "while this is in play" requirement.

Grand Market: You don't need both the "when you would buy a card" and "while Copper is in play" things. They say the same thing. I would keep "while Copper is in play", which is actually a state timer.

Contraband: I guess a when-would-buy trigger works, but I would make it a state timer instead, like for Grand Market (both being "you can't buy..." states). So "during your buy phase", just like for Peddler.

pinkymadigan

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2013, 09:27:36 am »
0

This reminds me of a game manual from Fantasy Flight Games.

"You have 10 phases.
Before, during, or after a phase you can play some cards."

Just check the rules for The Lord of the Rings card game if you don't believe me. :)
That sounds like a classic FFG manual. I bought every expansion of Descent V1 up to the Quest Compendium before I realized they weren't even spell checking their product anymore.
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Davio

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2013, 10:40:56 am »
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Just read the reply about Outpost.

Can you draw the same Outpost on your Outpost turn?

I mean, say your deck is just 5 cards: Outpost, Caravan and 3 Coppers for simplicity.
You play Caravan, drawing nothing and play Outpost.
It's now your clean-up phase so you shuffle and draw 3 cards (3 Coppers).
Outpost is now done "doing what it's doing" and goes to your discard pile.
Caravan lets you draw a card, you shuffle 1 card and draw Outpost.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2013, 11:28:04 am »
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In games using this, when you buy a card
Embargo, Hovel: Why "in games using this"? Hovel can only be trashed from your hand if it's in your hand, and Embargo's Curse gaining happens from the tokens, not Embargo itself being in the game.

I disagree about Embargo. The tokens themselves don't have any abilities; they're just checked by the triggered ability of Embargo. And Embargo's ability has to be a "in games using this" ability, or it would trigger multiple times whenever a player bought a card, if Embargo had been played multiple times throughout the game.
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2013, 11:28:47 am »
0

Just read the reply about Outpost.

Can you draw the same Outpost on your Outpost turn?

I mean, say your deck is just 5 cards: Outpost, Caravan and 3 Coppers for simplicity.
You play Caravan, drawing nothing and play Outpost.
It's now your clean-up phase so you shuffle and draw 3 cards (3 Coppers).
Outpost is now done "doing what it's doing" and goes to your discard pile.
Caravan lets you draw a card, you shuffle 1 card and draw Outpost.

No; when you play Outpost it stays in play through the next turn regardless.
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Jeebus

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2013, 11:31:44 am »
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Outpost is now done "doing what it's doing" and goes to your discard pile.

Duration cards are never discarded until Clean-up.

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2013, 11:39:45 am »
+1

I disagree about Embargo. The tokens themselves don't have any abilities; they're just checked by the triggered ability of Embargo. And Embargo's ability has to be a "in games using this" ability, or it would trigger multiple times whenever a player bought a card, if Embargo had been played multiple times throughout the game.

That would only happen if it were a "when you play this" ability, like the stuff above the dividing line. But it doesn't say anywhere that it is. It's a "when you buy a card" ability which is always in effect. It's just that when no Embargos have been played, the ability finds zero tokens.

It's true that the tokens are just checked by that ability, I just wrote it short and sloppy.

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2013, 11:42:44 am »
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I disagree about Embargo. The tokens themselves don't have any abilities; they're just checked by the triggered ability of Embargo. And Embargo's ability has to be a "in games using this" ability, or it would trigger multiple times whenever a player bought a card, if Embargo had been played multiple times throughout the game.

That would only happen if it were a "when you play this" ability, like the stuff above the dividing line. But it doesn't say anywhere that it is. It's a "when you buy a card" ability which is always in effect. It's just that when no Embargos have been played, the ability finds zero tokens.

It's true that the tokens are just checked by that ability, I just wrote it short and sloppy.

My question has always been, which copy of Embargo triggers when you buy a card? There's ten of them, after all.
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2013, 12:03:23 pm »
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I'm in the process of writing my own silly list which is kind of related to this. So the wiki article was useful to me. There are some things I don't agree with though.

So, I'm thinking of these in terms of "when would Goko, Isotropic, or any other Dominion-refereeing computer have to check whether something is supposed to happen?". Whenever you buy a card, you have to check whether it's Mint; whenever you gain a card, you have to check whether you have Watchtower in hand, and so forth.

Quote
Possession is listed under "when you trash a card" ("The card is set aside and returned to the discard pile at end of turn"). Here it's from the perspective of the player being Possessed. But under "when another player would gain a card", "at the end of the turn", and "after this turn" it's from the perspective of the Possessor. Not sure how to fix it, but it should be made clearer.

I don't think this should be distinguishing between different players. When you trash a card, you have to check whether you're being Possessed; when you would gain a card, you have to check whether you're being Possessed. The referee doesn't take the perspective of a single player.

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In games using this, when you buy a card
Embargo, Hovel: Why "in games using this"? Hovel can only be trashed from your hand if it's in your hand, and Embargo's Curse gaining happens from the tokens, not Embargo itself being in the game.

Agreed. Hovel is just "when you buy". Embargo's constraint isn't "in games using this", but rather "once you've played this, for the rest of the game".

Quote
State timers
I don't find it useful to view "while this is in play" as a trigger. I suppose it could be shorthand for a "when this enters play" trigger pluss a "when this leaves play" trigger (with the first event describing the change and the second describing the reversal). But I think it's better to think of it as describing a state. I call it a state timer. The same goes for "during your buy phase" and "in games using this".

Sure, but it's useful to put things like this on the same list.

Quote
I'd also argue that Lighthouse doesn't have the "when another player plays an Attack card" trigger, in spite of the wording. No event actually triggers when another player plays an Attack. Instead it just has the "while this is in play" state that Attacks don't affect you. Moat also has that state, lasting for the rest of the particular Attack, but only coming into effect when you reveal Moat as part of the event triggered by the "when another player plays an Attack card" trigger.

I disagree. The event that triggers when another player plays an Attack is that the Attack doesn't affect you.

Quote
Watchtower: The "if this is in your hand" header seems pointless for Watchtower. It's simply "when you gain a card", just like Royal Seal, although Royal Seal also has the "while this is in play" requirement.

Agreed.

Quote
Grand Market: You don't need both the "when you would buy a card" and "while Copper is in play" things. They say the same thing. I would keep "while Copper is in play", which is actually a state timer.

"While Copper is in play" is the state timer; "when you would buy Grand Market" is the event trigger.

Quote
Contraband: I guess a when-would-buy trigger works, but I would make it a state timer instead, like for Grand Market (both being "you can't buy..." states). So "during your buy phase", just like for Peddler.

Contraband's effect isn't restricted to your buy phase; Black Market shows that it affects your Action phase too. If it has a state timer, it's "for the rest of this turn", like Bridge and Coppersmith.
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2013, 12:04:17 pm »
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My question has always been, which copy of Embargo triggers when you buy a card? There's ten of them, after all.

The one that was used to Embargo the pile you're buying from. Next question?
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2013, 03:16:48 pm »
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Feel free to edit that article. I was just putting down there everything I had in my head. I knew that this isn't 100% correct, but at least I can look it up in some place. I agree with the most things you said.

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2013, 03:34:44 pm »
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Outpost is now done "doing what it's doing" and goes to your discard pile.

Duration cards are never discarded until Clean-up.
Okay, I thought duration cards were discarded when they were done doing what they're doing.
But I just read Seaside rules and Outpost specifically says "Leave Outpost in front of you until the end of the extra turn."
But what happens when you play Outpost on and Outpost turn? You only draw 3 cards again, but don't get an extra turn. Do you still leave the second Outpost out?
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2013, 03:44:40 pm »
0

Outpost is now done "doing what it's doing" and goes to your discard pile.

Duration cards are never discarded until Clean-up.
Okay, I thought duration cards were discarded when they were done doing what they're doing.
No, they're discarded during Cleanup of the turn on which they finish what they're doing.

Quote
But I just read Seaside rules and Outpost specifically says "Leave Outpost in front of you until the end of the extra turn."
But what happens when you play Outpost on and Outpost turn? You only draw 3 cards again, but don't get an extra turn. Do you still leave the second Outpost out?

You do, although I don't find the reasons for doing so convincing.
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GendoIkari

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2013, 03:54:36 pm »
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My question has always been, which copy of Embargo triggers when you buy a card? There's ten of them, after all.

The one that was used to Embargo the pile you're buying from. Next question?

No, Drab is right. The only way Embargo makes sense is if you pretend it says "in games using this." It can't be a specific Embargo triggering. Say you played 2 Embargos, both on Gold. With your way, when someone buys a Gold, both Embargos would trigger, and they both say "gain a Curse per Embargo token"... so you would get 4 Curses, not 2.
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2013, 04:27:44 pm »
+1

My question has always been, which copy of Embargo triggers when you buy a card? There's ten of them, after all.

The one that was used to Embargo the pile you're buying from. Next question?

No, Drab is right. The only way Embargo makes sense is if you pretend it says "in games using this." It can't be a specific Embargo triggering. Say you played 2 Embargos, both on Gold. With your way, when someone buys a Gold, both Embargos would trigger, and they both say "gain a Curse per Embargo token"... so you would get 4 Curses, not 2.

Yes, I suppose you're right. I was pretending it says "Put an Embargo token on top of a Supply pile. For the rest of the game, when a player buys a card from that pile, he gains a Curse" instead of pretending it says "in games using this". (I think my way of understanding Embargo's effect is more elegant, but that's just me.)
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2013, 05:46:09 pm »
0

I like the replies here. They make me think about this. Hopefully we can get it right.

Embargo is a tricky one.

I think AJD's idea was that playing Embargo puts a state into effect ("from now until the rest of the game"), which is that the when-buy trigger is in effect. The when-buy event is that you gain a Curse per token. But in order for this to work it can't be per token period (since each played Embargo would add another when-buy trigger). As GendoIkari said, that would mean you would get 4 Curses for 2 tokens. So each token would have to be tied to a specific Embargo somehow.

My question has always been, which copy of Embargo triggers when you buy a card? There's ten of them, after all.

This is a good point. I said that it's a when-buy trigger which is always in effect, but it could be argued that that would mean there are ten of these when-buy triggers always in effect. However, I don't see how "in games using this" prevents this..? In a game with Embargo, the game is using all ten Embargo cards. So there would still be ten when-buy triggers in effect.

The same problem then appears for Duchess. When you gain a Duchy, you could gain ten Duchesses.
And also for set-up events like on Trade Route and Young Witch. Trade Route would make you put ten tokens on each Victory card!

Obviously these rules are meant to be completely separate from the specific card copy they're on. They're each just one rule that's in the game when the Kingdom pile is. However, there doesn't seem to be anything technically saying why it's one event trigger and not ten. After all, each Goons in play gives you a VP per buy. Even though it says "while this is in play" that's just when the trigger is in effect. It doesn't say that it's necessarily one trigger per Goons. But since it is one trigger per Goons (events are cumulative), by the same token it should be one trigger per Embargo.

I don't know how to describe the proper timing on Embargo (or Duchess, Trade Route, etc.) to solve this...

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2013, 06:04:04 pm »
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Yes, I suppose you're right. I was pretending it says "Put an Embargo token on top of a Supply pile. For the rest of the game, when a player buys a card from that pile, he gains a Curse" instead of pretending it says "in games using this". (I think my way of understanding Embargo's effect is more elegant, but that's just me.)
It's probably relevant that, according to the secret histories, the physical embargo card originally went on the pile. In that case, that physical copy of embargo would have been triggering.
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Donald X.

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2013, 06:11:07 pm »
+3

Obviously these rules are meant to be completely separate from the specific card copy they're on. They're each just one rule that's in the game when the Kingdom pile is. However, there doesn't seem to be anything technically saying why it's one event trigger and not ten. After all, each Goons in play gives you a VP per buy. Even though it says "while this is in play" that's just when the trigger is in effect. It doesn't say that it's necessarily one trigger per Goons. But since it is one trigger per Goons (events are cumulative), by the same token it should be one trigger per Embargo.
Goons triggers once per Goons via the default for all triggered abilities in most games - "when x happens, do y" means, directly after x happens, do y once. When you pass Go, you don't take all of the money from the bank, you just get $200.

I don't know how to describe the proper timing on Embargo (or Duchess, Trade Route, etc.) to solve this...
Embargo, Duchess, and "Setup" abilities are not precisely phrased. I will use my usual excuse that, AFAIK, they do not confuse people; no-one thinks they are supposed to take all 10 Curses due to one Embargo token or all 10 Duchesses when they buy a Duchy, no-one puts 10 counters on each VP pile for Trade Route or adds 10 Banes to the supply for Young Witch.

More precise cards would indicate that they were just giving you a reminder, and then the rulebook would have the rules for those things in their non-FAQ sections.

Embargo has a when-buy trigger, is timed like other when-buy triggers, and probably does what you think it does.
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2013, 06:27:46 pm »
0

I don't think this should be distinguishing between different players. When you trash a card, you have to check whether you're being Possessed; when you would gain a card, you have to check whether you're being Possessed. The referee doesn't take the perspective of a single player.

But it's not listed under "when you would gain a card", that's partly my point...

Quote
Quote
I'd also argue that Lighthouse doesn't have the "when another player plays an Attack card" trigger, in spite of the wording. No event actually triggers when another player plays an Attack. Instead it just has the "while this is in play" state that Attacks don't affect you. Moat also has that state, lasting for the rest of the particular Attack, but only coming into effect when you reveal Moat as part of the event triggered by the "when another player plays an Attack card" trigger.

I disagree. The event that triggers when another player plays an Attack is that the Attack doesn't affect you.

But that's not an event in my view. At that point nothing has affected you yet, the player hasn't started resolving the Attack. If it were a trigger, it would have to be a "would" trigger on the very event on the Attack that could affect you. So "when another player would do something on an Attack card that affects you" or something. And the event is "he doesn't do that thing." Actually this would be closer to how a computer program would implement it. But for our purposes here, I think what I said is better.

Quote
Quote
Grand Market: You don't need both the "when you would buy a card" and "while Copper is in play" things. They say the same thing. I would keep "while Copper is in play", which is actually a state timer.

"While Copper is in play" is the state timer; "when you would buy Grand Market" is the event trigger.

No, you don't need both. With the event trigger, the state timer is pointless.

Quote
Quote
Contraband: I guess a when-would-buy trigger works, but I would make it a state timer instead, like for Grand Market (both being "you can't buy..." states). So "during your buy phase", just like for Peddler.

Contraband's effect isn't restricted to your buy phase; Black Market shows that it affects your Action phase too. If it has a state timer, it's "for the rest of this turn", like Bridge and Coppersmith.

You're right!

BTW, Coppersmith is like this: It has the state timer "for the rest of your turn" (in effect when Coppersmith is played). The state is that an event trigger is in effect: "when you play a Copper", and the event is +$1.

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2013, 06:38:10 pm »
0

I like the replies here. They make me think about this. Hopefully we can get it right.

Embargo is a tricky one.

I think AJD's idea was that playing Embargo puts a state into effect ("from now until the rest of the game"), which is that the when-buy trigger is in effect. The when-buy event is that you gain a Curse per token.

Nono... on this analysis of Embargo, the when-buy event is that you gain one Curse, not a Curse per token. (And the fact that the card says "one Curse per token" is a case of the card text not literally lining up 100% with card's effect, like Nomad Camp.)

Quote
So each token would have to be tied to a specific Embargo somehow.

Each token is tied to a specific Embargo card because each token is placed by a specific Embargo card. On this analysis, the Embargo tokens are just to make tracking easier; gameplay would be the same without them—like Trade Route tokens. (Trade Route could just say "+$1 per Victory card pile in the supply from which a card has been gained this game".)

Quote
I don't see how "in games using this" prevents this..? In a game with Embargo, the game is using all ten Embargo cards. So there would still be ten when-buy triggers in effect.

The same problem then appears for Duchess. When you gain a Duchy, you could gain ten Duchesses.

Agreed.

Quote
And also for set-up events like on Trade Route and Young Witch. Trade Route would make you put ten tokens on each Victory card!

Nah, for set-up events it's the randomizer card that's telling you what to do. By the time you have ten Young Witches, set-up has already taken place.  ;)
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2013, 06:45:38 pm »
0

Obviously these rules are meant to be completely separate from the specific card copy they're on. They're each just one rule that's in the game when the Kingdom pile is. However, there doesn't seem to be anything technically saying why it's one event trigger and not ten. After all, each Goons in play gives you a VP per buy. Even though it says "while this is in play" that's just when the trigger is in effect. It doesn't say that it's necessarily one trigger per Goons. But since it is one trigger per Goons (events are cumulative), by the same token it should be one trigger per Embargo.
Goons triggers once per Goons via the default for all triggered abilities in most games - "when x happens, do y" means, directly after x happens, do y once. When you pass Go, you don't take all of the money from the bank, you just get $200.

Forgive me, but I don't quite see how Goons' behavior follows from "directly after x happens, do y once". Goons tells you that "when you buy a card, +1 VP", so directly after you buy a card, you take 1 VP once. If you have multiple Goons cards in play, all telling you the same thing, there are two ways to interpret that: (1) each one of them tells you "when you buy a card, +1 VP", they all agree with each other on that point, so you do just what they all tell you to do and take 1 VP when you buy a card; or (2) the way it actually works. Each of those models is compatible with the standard interpretation of "when x, do y"; the fact that multiple cards in play with the same instruction are cumulative, not parallel, is a separate rule.
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2013, 06:50:00 pm »
0

I don't think this should be distinguishing between different players. When you trash a card, you have to check whether you're being Possessed; when you would gain a card, you have to check whether you're being Possessed. The referee doesn't take the perspective of a single player.

But it's not listed under "when you would gain a card", that's partly my point...

Right, my opinion is that that's an error.

Quote
Quote
Quote
I'd also argue that Lighthouse doesn't have the "when another player plays an Attack card" trigger, in spite of the wording. No event actually triggers when another player plays an Attack. Instead it just has the "while this is in play" state that Attacks don't affect you. Moat also has that state, lasting for the rest of the particular Attack, but only coming into effect when you reveal Moat as part of the event triggered by the "when another player plays an Attack card" trigger.

I disagree. The event that triggers when another player plays an Attack is that the Attack doesn't affect you.

But that's not an event in my view. At that point nothing has affected you yet, the player hasn't started resolving the Attack. If it were a trigger, it would have to be a "would" trigger on the very event on the Attack that could affect you. So "when another player would do something on an Attack card that affects you" or something. And the event is "he doesn't do that thing." Actually this would be closer to how a computer program would implement it. But for our purposes here, I think what I said is better.

Hmm, maybe. I was conceptualizing "being granted immunity from an Attack" as an event.

Quote
Quote
Quote
Grand Market: You don't need both the "when you would buy a card" and "while Copper is in play" things. They say the same thing. I would keep "while Copper is in play", which is actually a state timer.

"While Copper is in play" is the state timer; "when you would buy Grand Market" is the event trigger.

No, you don't need both. With the event trigger, the state timer is pointless.

'When you would buy this, if Copper is in play you don't buy this?' Yeah, I suppose so.
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Donald X.

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2013, 07:14:01 pm »
0

Obviously these rules are meant to be completely separate from the specific card copy they're on. They're each just one rule that's in the game when the Kingdom pile is. However, there doesn't seem to be anything technically saying why it's one event trigger and not ten. After all, each Goons in play gives you a VP per buy. Even though it says "while this is in play" that's just when the trigger is in effect. It doesn't say that it's necessarily one trigger per Goons. But since it is one trigger per Goons (events are cumulative), by the same token it should be one trigger per Embargo.
Goons triggers once per Goons via the default for all triggered abilities in most games - "when x happens, do y" means, directly after x happens, do y once. When you pass Go, you don't take all of the money from the bank, you just get $200.

Forgive me, but I don't quite see how Goons' behavior follows from "directly after x happens, do y once". Goons tells you that "when you buy a card, +1 VP", so directly after you buy a card, you take 1 VP once. If you have multiple Goons cards in play, all telling you the same thing, there are two ways to interpret that: (1) each one of them tells you "when you buy a card, +1 VP", they all agree with each other on that point, so you do just what they all tell you to do and take 1 VP when you buy a card; or (2) the way it actually works. Each of those models is compatible with the standard interpretation of "when x, do y"; the fact that multiple cards in play with the same instruction are cumulative, not parallel, is a separate rule.
"While this is in play, when you buy a card, +1 VP."

If I have two in play, they aren't telling me the same thing - one is referring to itself, the other to the other.

Perhaps someone would try to read that as "While this is in play, the special rule that gives you +1 VP for buying a card is active," so that the second copy would be redundant. That seems weird to me but people do ask just that kind of question. Luckily there's a FAQ and it indicates that multiple Goons are cumulative, with an example.
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Jeebus

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2013, 07:32:05 pm »
0

Embargo, Duchess, and "Setup" abilities are not precisely phrased. I will use my usual excuse that, AFAIK, they do not confuse people; no-one thinks they are supposed to take all 10 Curses due to one Embargo token or all 10 Duchesses when they buy a Duchy, no-one puts 10 counters on each VP pile for Trade Route or adds 10 Banes to the supply for Young Witch.

More precise cards would indicate that they were just giving you a reminder, and then the rulebook would have the rules for those things in their non-FAQ sections.

Embargo has a when-buy trigger, is timed like other when-buy triggers, and probably does what you think it does.

Yes, neither of us are unsure about the rules here, just trying to describe the timing properly. Thanks for the reply.
Right, the "problem" is that the triggers are on the cards. A text saying that they're only reminders would solve it by saying that the card itself isn't really telling you to do these things..! :)

How to describe the timing accurately for the purposes here though..? Maybe a state timer that says "in this game, but not once for each of This", but it's not very elegant at all. Still thinking...

Nono... on this analysis of Embargo, the when-buy event is that you gain one Curse, not a Curse per token. (And the fact that the card says "one Curse per token" is a case of the card text not literally lining up 100% with card's effect, like Nomad Camp.)

Each token is tied to a specific Embargo card because each token is placed by a specific Embargo card. On this analysis, the Embargo tokens are just to make tracking easier; gameplay would be the same without them—like Trade Route tokens. (Trade Route could just say "+$1 per Victory card pile in the supply from which a card has been gained this game".)

Ah, I see. Describing it like this would actually solve are problems with Embargo! There's still Duchess etc though, so we need a more general solution anyway.

Quote
Nah, for set-up events it's the randomizer card that's telling you what to do. By the time you have ten Young Witches, set-up has already taken place.  ;)

Heh, I guess, if you use randomizers. They're not required by the rules though. If you choose ten piles in another way, you would be seeing the set-up events with all ten cards on the table.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 07:33:24 pm by Jeebus »
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2013, 07:43:47 pm »
0

Quote
Nah, for set-up events it's the randomizer card that's telling you what to do. By the time you have ten Young Witches, set-up has already taken place.  ;)

Heh, I guess, if you use randomizers. They're not required by the rules though. If you choose ten piles in another way, you would be seeing the set-up events with all ten cards on the table.

And yet, for Knights, the randomizer is the only place the special set-up rule appears....
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2013, 08:48:43 pm »
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How to describe the timing accurately for the purposes here though..? Maybe a state timer that says "in this game, but not once for each of This", but it's not very elegant at all. Still thinking...
I am not sure what the problem is that you need solved.

In a hypothetical world of precise phrasings, there is a global rule, "In games using Embargo, when you buy a card, gain a Curse per Embargo token on that pile." There is another global rule, "In games using Duchess, when you buy a Duchy, you may gain a Duchess." Being precise doesn't mean it needs to say "but not once per copy of this card;" the rule is in a rulebook, not on a card (in this hypothetical world).
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Donald X.

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2013, 08:50:02 pm »
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And yet, for Knights, the randomizer is the only place the special set-up rule appears....
The Dark Ages rulebook explains setup for Knights.
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2013, 11:49:50 pm »
0

And yet, for Knights, the randomizer is the only place the special set-up rule appears....
The Dark Ages rulebook explains setup for Knights.

Fair enough! I guess I meant 'the only card the rule appears on'.
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2013, 02:34:47 am »
0

I am not sure what the problem is that you need solved.

This is only for trying to improve this: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Triggered_events pluss my own document that I'm writing trying to get triggers and timing precise. I don't really need anything solved from you. Your input is always appreciated of course. :) But I don't think anyone here is actually unclear about how these rules work.

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2013, 02:59:04 am »
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This is only for trying to improve this: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Triggered_events pluss my own document that I'm writing trying to get triggers and timing precise. I don't really need anything solved from you. Your input is always appreciated of course. :) But I don't think anyone here is actually unclear about how these rules work.
Hooray!
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2013, 03:26:03 am »
0

An even crazier thing occurred to me about this:

Quote
When you would gain this
Nomad Camp: [Gain it and] put it on top of your deck.
although the card text says "when you gain this", the actual effect is more consistent with a "would-gain" timing

Which goes to demonstrate how dangerous it is to change these triggers in an effort to make them clearer. Because what happens here is an infinite loop! Since there's nothing stopping the trigger to trigger again, we get an unending series of recursive when-would-gain events, never getting to the actual gain in any of them:

Code: [Select]
- I try to gain a Nomad Camp.
- Its when-would-gain triggers, saying "Gain this and put it on the top of your deck."
    - I try to gain the Nomad Camp.
    - Its when-would-gain triggers, saying "Gain this and put it on the top of your deck."
        - I try to gain the Nomad Camp.
        etc.

It seems that to make a when-would-gain trigger working here could get pretty convoluted. Maybe somehow pre-emptively changing the target location of the actual gain to "your deck"..?

I think maybe the way to make it work would be something like this: "When you would gain this and put it in your discard pile, gain it and put it on the top of your deck instead." Now it only triggers once, because after that it's not going to your discard pile anymore.

But the problem now is that the original gain is cancelled (like for Trader and Possession) so gaining a Nomad Camp with Ironworks would not give the bonus! Thinking about it, this problem was there all along, even without the recursive loop. In the current text in the wiki, if we pretend that the trigger only triggers once per Nomad Camp, after gaining the card to your deck, the actual gain would fail because of lose-track. So Ironworks would fail to gain a card.

So now I'm thinking that the whole idea about when-would-gain on Nomad Camp is out the window.

Jeebus

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2013, 03:33:50 am »
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Here's a fun Reaction card idea:

Ping Pong
When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, the player to your left gains it instead.

 ;D

AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2013, 10:10:55 am »
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I am not sure what the problem is that you need solved.

This is only for trying to improve this: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Triggered_events pluss my own document that I'm writing trying to get triggers and timing precise. I don't really need anything solved from you. Your input is always appreciated of course. :) But I don't think anyone here is actually unclear about how these rules work.

Indeed! Donald, you can think of what we're doing as scientific exploration of the space of rules that you invented, trying to work them out in finer detail than they're actually written down, based on our existing knowledge of what the cards actually do.
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #60 on: March 09, 2013, 10:17:48 am »
+1

An even crazier thing occurred to me about this:

Quote
When you would gain this
Nomad Camp: [Gain it and] put it on top of your deck.
although the card text says "when you gain this", the actual effect is more consistent with a "would-gain" timing

Which goes to demonstrate how dangerous it is to change these triggers in an effort to make them clearer. Because what happens here is an infinite loop!

Well, this one is easily resolved; the trigger is actually "when you would gain this to somewhere other than your deck-top".

Quote
But the problem now is that the original gain is cancelled (like for Trader and Possession) so gaining a Nomad Camp with Ironworks would not give the bonus! Thinking about it, this problem was there all along, even without the recursive loop. In the current text in the wiki, if we pretend that the trigger only triggers once per Nomad Camp, after gaining the card to your deck, the actual gain would fail because of lose-track. So Ironworks would fail to gain a card.

So now I'm thinking that the whole idea about when-would-gain on Nomad Camp is out the window.

Hmmm. Maybe. Ironworks Silver, reveal Trader, gain the same Silver you would have gotten anyway, you still don't get the +$1.

So. The timing of Nomad Camp's effect still has to be when-would-gain, just because that really is when it activates. But the effect isn't replacing the gain with another gain (as Possession's and Trader's is); it's just redirecting the gain. So like, "when you would gain this, redirect the gain effect's target to the deck-top."

This would still fail when interacting with a notional "Swap Meet" card (gain Action card to hand), since Donald has said that if such an effect existed, you'd get to choose the target for Nomad Camp; but since such an effect doesn't exist, we don't have to worry about it.
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SirPeebles

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #61 on: March 09, 2013, 10:51:37 am »
+2

I'd also argue that Lighthouse doesn't have the "when another player plays an Attack card" trigger, in spite of the wording. No event actually triggers when another player plays an Attack. Instead it just has the "while this is in play" state that Attacks don't affect you. Moat also has that state, lasting for the rest of the particular Attack, but only coming into effect when you reveal Moat as part of the event triggered by the "when another player plays an Attack card" trigger.

Perhaps I'm wrong here, but I don't believe that Moat gives you the state described.  Using another Alice and Bob story, suppose that Alice plays a Cultist, and Bob responds by revealing a Moat.  However, Alice has another Cultist in hand, so as part of resolving her first Cultist she plays a second one.  If Moat gave Bob the "Attacks don't affect me" state which persists until the triggering attack is fully resolved, then Moat would automatically block this second Cultist.  But I'm pretty sure that Bob has the option of revealing Moat or not.  If there is a third player, Charlie, who did not reveal a Moat, then there may be a new Ruins on top when Bob has the option to reveal his Moat.  This new Ruin may be the Ruined Market he needs in this buy-less kingdom, or it may be this new Ruin would be his 15th uniquely named card in a Fairgrounds deck.
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Jeebus

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2013, 11:50:00 am »
0

Perhaps I'm wrong here, but I don't believe that Moat gives you the state described.  Using another Alice and Bob story, suppose that Alice plays a Cultist, and Bob responds by revealing a Moat.  However, Alice has another Cultist in hand, so as part of resolving her first Cultist she plays a second one.  If Moat gave Bob the "Attacks don't affect me" state which persists until the triggering attack is fully resolved, then Moat would automatically block this second Cultist.  But I'm pretty sure that Bob has the option of revealing Moat or not.  If there is a third player, Charlie, who did not reveal a Moat, then there may be a new Ruins on top when Bob has the option to reveal his Moat.  This new Ruin may be the Ruined Market he needs in this buy-less kingdom, or it may be this new Ruin would be his 15th uniquely named card in a Fairgrounds deck.

Interesting point, and an actual real rules question! Too bad it's buried here because this would be useful to know for actual game play.

Actually I have Moat as "you are unaffected by the effects of the Attack", not "Attacks don't affect you". That was wrong. But even so, how does this work?

Moat says you are unaffected by the Attack.
To my mind playing the second Cultist is part of resolving the first Cultist (like you said). That means that playing the second Cultist is part of the Attack that was Moated. Since you are unaffected by that Attack, shouldn't you also automatically be unaffected by the second Cultist? If not, what exactly is Moat blocking?

Uhmm... Donald..?


EDIT: On the other hand: Thief and Ill-Gotten Gains.
Alice plays Thief. Bob reveals Moat, but Carl does not. Alice steals an Ill-Gotten-Gains from Carl. Since she gains it, the other players gain a Curse. Now, since every instruction on Thief is part of the Attack, and Alice gained a Treasure (an IGG) as part of the Attack, Bob doesn't gain a Curse.
Of course, this seems extremely counter-intuitive, so I think SirPeebles must be right.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 12:05:52 pm by Jeebus »
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SirPeebles

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2013, 12:11:04 pm »
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Hmm, in a multiplayer game, does Thief really have the greatest Cursing potential of any card?  In a four player game, if you steal 3 IGGs then you'd pass out 9 Curses with that single Thief play!
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2013, 12:36:27 pm »
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Cultist lets you play another Cultist, but I would not consider the second one to be part of the first. Likewise, Thief can gain you IGG, but the cursing is not due to Thief, it's due to IGG. I see the cursing as enabled by Thief but not as a part of the Thief attack.

This is the intuitive answer, and intuitive is usually correct in Dominion.
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2013, 12:48:32 pm »
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Moat says you are unaffected by the Attack.
To my mind playing the second Cultist is part of resolving the first Cultist (like you said). That means that playing the second Cultist is part of the Attack that was Moated. Since you are unaffected by that Attack, shouldn't you also automatically be unaffected by the second Cultist? If not, what exactly is Moat blocking?
Well, it depends on what you mean by "the Attack." My interpretation is thus: "The Attack" refers only to effects of the Attack card being played, that affect the Moating player. Playing the second Cultist does not affect the Moating player (directly), so Moat does nothing. The Ruins from the second Cultist is part of the second Cultist, not the first, and therefore is not covered by the first Moat.

This really hinges on whether the bonus Cultist is considered part of the Attack portion of the first Cultist. I learn towards it not being so, because the second Cultist also has non-Attack portions (card draw), so it's simpler to consider it a non-Attack effect that only impacts the Cultistsing player.
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2013, 01:04:09 pm »
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This is the intuitive answer, and intuitive is usually correct in Dominion.

...Well, once you've gotten used to the idea that Throne Rooming an Herbalist doesn't let you top-deck two treasures, anyway.
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Jeebus

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2013, 01:04:18 pm »
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Well, it depends on what you mean by "the Attack." My interpretation is thus: "The Attack" refers only to effects of the Attack card being played, that affect the Moating player. Playing the second Cultist does not affect the Moating player (directly), so Moat does nothing. The Ruins from the second Cultist is part of the second Cultist, not the first, and therefore is not covered by the first Moat.

This really hinges on whether the bonus Cultist is considered part of the Attack portion of the first Cultist. I learn towards it not being so, because the second Cultist also has non-Attack portions (card draw), so it's simpler to consider it a non-Attack effect that only impacts the Cultistsing player.

Your conclusion is probably correct, but just to clarify: There is no "Attack portion". "Attack" is just a type on the card. Whenever such a card is played, you can reveal Moat. And that has the effect that you are unaffected by that card. So the question is really: Is the effect of the second Cultist part of the effect of the first one?

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2013, 01:59:39 pm »
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This is the intuitive answer, and intuitive is usually correct in Dominion.

...Well, once you've gotten used to the idea that Throne Rooming an Herbalist doesn't let you top-deck two treasures, anyway.

You only discard the Herbalist once.

Another dissimilarity between Herbalist and Scheme is that Herbalist's topdecking theoretically does not need to occur during the clean-up phase.  It is triggered whenever Herbalist is "discarded from play".  However, I can't think of any other instance with current cards in which Herbalist would be discard from play.  This may be for the best, else one could possibly rig an infinite turn.
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2013, 02:09:51 pm »
+1

This is the intuitive answer, and intuitive is usually correct in Dominion.

...Well, once you've gotten used to the idea that Throne Rooming an Herbalist doesn't let you top-deck two treasures, anyway.

You only discard the Herbalist once.

Yes, I know that. But I don't think that the correct rule is intuitive to beginning players.

Quote
Another dissimilarity between Herbalist and Scheme

(Scheme says "At the start of Clean-up this turn"; that also is something that only happens once. Why does Scheme's 'at the start of Clean-up, do X' get Throned to 'at the start of Clean-up, do X twice', but Herbalist's 'when you discard this from play, do X' doesn't get Throned to 'when you discard this from play, do X twice'? Don't answer that, I know the answer, it's because Scheme's effect is created when you play it even though it doesn't effect anything till later, just like +buy, and Herbalist's effect isn't created until you discard it—my point is just that this distinction and how and why it works that way is not really fairly describable as "intuitive", especially to beginning players.)
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Donald X.

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2013, 02:20:45 pm »
0

So. The timing of Nomad Camp's effect still has to be when-would-gain, just because that really is when it activates. But the effect isn't replacing the gain with another gain (as Possession's and Trader's is); it's just redirecting the gain. So like, "when you would gain this, redirect the gain effect's target to the deck-top."

This would still fail when interacting with a notional "Swap Meet" card (gain Action card to hand), since Donald has said that if such an effect existed, you'd get to choose the target for Nomad Camp; but since such an effect doesn't exist, we don't have to worry about it.
Nomad Camp isn't when-gain (despite being printed that way since that's how you would say it naturally); it's, "this card's gain-destination defaults to deck-top rather than discard." It can still be overridden.
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Donald X.

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2013, 02:27:43 pm »
0

Perhaps I'm wrong here, but I don't believe that Moat gives you the state described.  Using another Alice and Bob story, suppose that Alice plays a Cultist, and Bob responds by revealing a Moat.  However, Alice has another Cultist in hand, so as part of resolving her first Cultist she plays a second one.  If Moat gave Bob the "Attacks don't affect me" state which persists until the triggering attack is fully resolved, then Moat would automatically block this second Cultist.  But I'm pretty sure that Bob has the option of revealing Moat or not.  If there is a third player, Charlie, who did not reveal a Moat, then there may be a new Ruins on top when Bob has the option to reveal his Moat.  This new Ruin may be the Ruined Market he needs in this buy-less kingdom, or it may be this new Ruin would be his 15th uniquely named card in a Fairgrounds deck.
I guess the confusion here (for Jeebus) is that playing a Cultist is something Cultist did? That's not something done to you though, it's like them drawing two cards. Then when they play the second Cultist, that's a new Cultist being played; you get a chance to reveal Moat (since an attack card was played) and aren't automatically defended from it (it's not the other attack card).

Moat's "you are unaffected by that attack" thing can be tricky, though in practice it isn't; it makes us decide whether you are being affected by something. You aren't being affected by Cultist letting a Cultist be played; what's affecting you is the next Cultist.
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Jeebus

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2013, 03:21:22 pm »
0

Hmmm. Maybe. Ironworks Silver, reveal Trader, gain the same Silver you would have gotten anyway, you still don't get the +$1.

So. The timing of Nomad Camp's effect still has to be when-would-gain, just because that really is when it activates. But the effect isn't replacing the gain with another gain (as Possession's and Trader's is); it's just redirecting the gain. So like, "when you would gain this, redirect the gain effect's target to the deck-top."

This would still fail when interacting with a notional "Swap Meet" card (gain Action card to hand), since Donald has said that if such an effect existed, you'd get to choose the target for Nomad Camp; but since such an effect doesn't exist, we don't have to worry about it.

Firstly, if the when-would-gain event just redirects the upcoming gain, it doesn't trigger another gain, so no recursive loop, and we don't even need the "to somewhere other than your deck-top" qualifier. So that's good.

I really tried to think of any way that Nomad Camp can work the way Donald described with Swap Meet though. It's obvious what the intention is here. Swap Meet (like Mine) has a gain-to-hand effect. Nomad Camp has a gain-to-deck effect. When Swap Meet tries to gain Nomad Camp, both effects kick in at the same time, so you get to order them. But how can Nomad Camp have a gain-to-deck effect with the same timing as Swap Meet? The only way is if we define all gain-to-deck effects and gain-to-hand effects as having a when-would-gain where you set the target. So first you set the target, then you do the actual gain. This includes cards like Mine and Develop. And even though normal gain effects always mean gain-to-discard, we have to exclude these from setting a target on when-would-gain, or else every gain-to-hand and gain-to-deck would be optional! When you think about it, if ordering Swap Meet and Nomad Camp should be possible, this has to happen before you actually gain the card, so there has to be some time frame before gain when both Swap Meet and Nomad Camp try to do something.

We could define gaining like this:
The gaining destination per default is your discard pile.
"Gain a card": Move the card from Supply (or the indicated location) to its gaining destination.
"Gain a card by putting in your hand": Before gaining the card, set its gaining destination to your hand.
"Gain a card by putting in on top of your deck": Before gaining the card, set its gaining destination to the top of your deck.


And then Nomad Camp would be:
Before gaining this, set its gaining destination to the top of your deck.

This way Swap Meet and Nomad Camp would trigger at the same time.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 03:28:39 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #73 on: March 10, 2013, 05:01:06 pm »
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Post purely about editing the wiki article. I'm trying to do that now, without making it overly complicated (which is hard for me).

I see that there are duplicates, in order to categorize things. For instance Goons is both under Buying and Cards in play.
So regarding Grand Market and Contraband. They both are subject to states, but they also both could be said to trigger on when-would-buy. So there are three ways of doing it.

1) Both events and states separately, to be as thorough as possible. Note that to be consistent, we have to also refer to the event trigger in the state:

Quote
When you would buy this
Grand Market: You can't buy this if you have Copper in play.

When you would buy a card this turn
Contraband: You can't buy [the card your opponent named].

While Copper is in play
Grand Market: [When you would buy this,] you can't buy this.

For the rest of the turn
Contraband: [When you would buy the card your opponent named,] you can't buy that card.

2) Just states, ignoring when-would-buy events:

Quote
While Copper is in play
Grand Market: You can't buy this.

For the rest of the turn
Contraband: You can't buy [the card your opponent named].

3) Just events, referring to the state timers ("Copper in play" and "this turn") but not listing states separately:

Quote
When you would buy this
Grand Market: You can't buy this if you have Copper in play.

When you would buy a card this turn
Contraband: You can't buy [the card your opponent named].

Anybody have a preference?

AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #74 on: March 10, 2013, 05:12:05 pm »
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Anybody have a preference?

Both separately, under separate subsections of the list.
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Jeebus

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #75 on: March 10, 2013, 05:59:50 pm »
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Anybody have a preference?

Both separately, under separate subsections of the list.

Okay, you got your wish. And I was trying to make it less complicated. :)
I have a feeling no-one else is going to reply anyway. I'm done with the changes now. See if you have any objections.

One thing to note is Band of Misfits. I have a pretty elegant "solution" to it. The only thing that happens before-play (or on when-would-play) is that you choose a card. Nothing on the card happens on-play. The first thing that happens when you play a card, is that it enters play. That's before any Reactions or anything of course. So the only other thing Band of Misfits needs is a when-in-play state saying that it's the chosen card.
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