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Author Topic: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game  (Read 26497 times)

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ftl

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For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« on: August 06, 2012, 05:19:47 am »
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OK, so I've been meaning to post this thread, finally decided to just do it.

So, Dark Ages previews are going to start up today! And, we've all played a lot of Dominion, we're going to be able to guess exactly how the cards will play out just from reading them. ...well, not really. But it's fun to try and, in a few months, to look back and laugh at how clueless we were.

So here's my idea for this thread. If you're interested, make a post in this thread. As card previews come out, edit the post with your prediction of how that card will play - is it a power opening or a trap? Good for engines or BM+X? What will it combo with?  For the full experience, make the post after reading the card but before reading the rest of the community's analysis of it, so you can take full credit for being right or wrong. Though obviously I'm not going to be enforcing anything.

Then, when we all have played with Dark Ages, we can come back here and see how misguided we were (or pat ourselves on the back for things we got right!).

I mean, we'll obviously go to the previews thread and chat and argue there, but I thought it would be convenient to have a spot where it'll be easy to look back on it later - one post per person, with all the cards, without anything else around.

Previews start in just a few hours!

PLEASE KEEP JUST ONE POST PER PERSON IN THIS THREAD.

Discussion and argument can take place in the preview thread. Here is just a place to post your initial thoughts, in one post, so that later we can look back and be amused.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 02:48:58 pm by ftl »
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Morgrim7

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2012, 05:21:34 am »
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Graverobber: Expand for Actions with a gaining power. Meh. Powerful with heavy sabs.
Poorhouse: Aaaaaand our first card costing $1. Could be powerful, but ya know, It is a $1 card. Not so bad.
Sage: Could be pretty big, combos well with Bridge/Highway. If only there was a way to insure it wouldn't hit VPs...

Feodum: This VP card doesn't promote rushes, except by mass Jack/B-Crat/Explorer.
Cultist: Looter? Hmmmm.... So it is like a Lab for itself. Depending on how bad the ruins are, this could be devastating in a chain.
Ruined Market: Hahaha +1 Buy. Cool. Not as bad as curses, but a deck full of these wont be pretty.

If there are going to be multiple ruins, it is gonna be fun to be able to choose what kind of curses you get.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 04:37:01 am by Morgrim7 »
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ftl

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2012, 05:29:03 am »
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And I'll be in for my own game, obv.

OK, here goes nothing! Editing with my responses to the first three:

1) Graverobber: Well, to start, it's an Expand that only works on action cards. That's sort of gimped, you can no longer expand copper into useful $3 cards (not much of a loss), you can't expand estate into a useful $5 (ok, that's a loss). But you CAN still Graverobber a $5 into a province. So that's something.

However the strength of this seems like it would be in games with lots of trash-for-benefit; if people are trashing useful $4s and $5s to get good stuff, you can steal that right back and topdeck it. But you can't Graverobber Bishopped provinces or anything...

Seems like there's some pretty brutal decks to be made which combo Graverobber with Apprentice or Bishop or Develop; those combos might be tricky to pull off, though, since graverobber is terminal. But I just don't see another use for it. I bet there'll be some nonterminal TfB in Dark Ages that it'll combo perfectly with.

Works with: engines which use trash-for-benefit cards, will be quite powerful in that niche case.
Doesn't work with: most other boards, since it seems like you pretty much have to be able to play the TfB and the Graverobber pretty often for this to be worth it over other powerful $5s. I guess you could have a powerful engine which graverobbers a $5 into a province, and then graverobbers it back on top of the deck? I'm skeptical, since at that point you have to have three $5s in hand to get a province, and, well, a lot of $5s will get you to that point if you have a few of them. Right now seems quite weak, but this may change as the rest of Dark Ages introduces more things it combos with.

2) Poor House.

OK, this looks cute. Great for starting up engines when there's heavy trashing going on: you basically don't have to worry about overtrashing treasures, trash all the treasures you have and pick up one of these with your last copper or terminal silver. Or once you're drawing your whole deck, Mint/Forge/Chapel away all your treasures and buy two of these. It guarantees $4, so you can pick up villages and smithies and cheap terminal silvers with it if you get it early. Great as a money source in treasureless engines. Obviously can combo with things like Vault and SC, though I bet that won't be a particularly common case.

Powerful with: any engine board with strong trashing.
Weak when there's no trashing.

Oh, and it's the best 1-cost card so far by far.

3) Sage: a cantrip which skips curses, coppers, and estates.

Sage/Sea Hag opening. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch.

I bet this will be a popular opening when there's any good second card to open with. Sage/Sea Hag. Sage/Remake. Sage/Workers Village if there's peddlers around. Sage/Moneylender to really clear out all those coppers. Sage/Potion if you're going for scrying pools or apothecaries. Someone will have to do a check for whether sage/potion is better than silver/potion for getting an early familiar. There's probably lots of others, and there'll probably be lots of debates over whether a "Sage/X" opening is better than an "X/X" opening for various 3-cost X, like Swindler or Steward.

Powerful $3, for sure, though it'll lose power as the game goes on. But still, at worst it'll be a cantrip.

4) Feodum. Hmm, an alt-vp costing 4. Could it work in a IW/Workshop rush? Seems like it would, you can pick up enough silvers for it to work. Combos with all the silver gainers around (trader, Jack, Explorer, etc.) Some better than others, but it seems like Bureaucrat-Feodum could be a playable tactic? Might be a trap. Trader/Feodum might be pretty dominant sometimes; if you have more than 3 feodums, tradering a province is a net VP gain. Geronimoo's simulator will probably help in deciding which of the obvious combos work and which don't. In a fast BM game, a consolation prize probably worth 1-2, but in a drawn-out game you'll need to count silvers and see how good it gets.

Obvious combo: Graverobber-Feodum. Trash your Feodum for silvers, then pick it back up.  I have this feeling that Throne Room+Graverobber+X is going to be a serious combo which works with a lot of Dark Ages cards as the X

5) Cultist: Well, cultist spam seems like an obvious strategy. It's like a lab which attacks but which can only play other cultists; or, if you're not chaining them, then it's sort of like a Witch (+2 cards, give out a curse). Then when ruins are out, you start trashing your cultists for bigger card bonuses. Combo: Graverobber/Cultist... trash a cultist for a province and draw 3 cards. I think this'll be in competition with Witch for top attack; maybe even better than Witch because you can get them in bulk and not fear collision, and if there's any trashing around then a transition from attack to post-attacking-rebuilding can go much faster because of the +3 cards on trash.

6) Ruined Market: Ruins seem like they'll be a minor incentive to go engine instead of BM and stock up on a few extra villages. The minor bonuses aren't much, but in an engine which has extra actions, they're at least something, whereas in BM+X they're dead draw. And hey, sometimes an engine just needs that +buy when there's none around... I bet there's going to be cases where you want to buy a Ruined Market in a game without other +buy, and it'll feel super cool when it works.

7) Squire: very nice card. At the very least, it's a +1 coin +2 actions village - that's an acceptable village to use for an engine if you need to build one, the +1 coin lets you skip a few treasure buys. And if there's no +buy, then use one of these for a terminal +buy. Those'll be its most common but sort of mundane uses. But in any kingdom with an attack... oh boy. Getting familiars without getting a potion. Chapeling these into a goons. And they even give +buy so you can pick them up in bulk just to trash them.

If there was any doubt that Chapel is the best $2 card, there'll be no more after all of Dark Ages is out. Chapel/Squire opening, if they collide you trash three starting cards and the squire and GAIN A GOONS. Of course, the power of squire will depend directly on the power of attacks in the kingdom - not worth it if the only attack is like spy or something nonspammable like Militia. But with some good attacks, watch out.

 8)  Hermit/Madman. Well, obviously, hermit combos with squire, you can use hermits to trash squires. They can trash your starting estates from your discard, but can't trash coppers. Not a thin-your-deck type trasher. But it'll combo with all those things in Dark Ages that need to be trashed. And it gains you, like, silvers or other mediocre cards... or squires! But if you don't buy anything, you gain a madman. Madman is awesome - +2 actions +4 cards if you just draw him in hand, possibly more if you've already started up your engine. But is it really worth not buying anything on a given turn to set up a future turn like that? Maybe. Obviously combos with gainers and cost reducers so you can get stuff without buying it... Dunno, Hermit/Madman on their own seem like they'd be difficult to set up and do anything with without serious help. It'll obviously work with Dark Ages cards where you're okay spending a turn to trash/gain stuff and then you can get a free Madman out of it, but I don't see it being a useful investment in a more standard engine or BM game where you'd rather just buy money or engine components. A turn to buy Hermit, a turn of not buying anything to trash Hermit and gain Madman, to finally get one super-madman turn... slow.

9) RATS. I'm not getting this card at first glance. It doesn't actually decrease your deck size, it just converts cards into rats. you also need another way to trash things to trash the rats, and if you're doing that, why not just get that one in the first place?

I can imagine, like Rats/Apprentice or Rats/Upgrade or Rats/Salvager, but other than that? Well, other than that it is reasonable when you want to have your deck be based on trashing and untrashing things, like some Dark Ages games might be. But won't the rats just flood your deck and take over?

Rats/Scrying Pool might work, having your estates/coppers replaced with rats is just as good as having them trashed. Rats/Forge: forge 2 rats into a province. OK, so rats is going to be a card which works with TFB and only TFB?

10) Pillage/Spoils. OK, tricky. It's three one-shots in one card. One-shot super-powered attack - picking a card to discard from someone's hand is pretty brutal. Then two one-shot golds. Oh, and once you can draw your whole deck, this makes for a brutal pin. I draw my whole deck, throne room one of these and a play graverobber. Basically destroy the other person's hand (no engine potential when you lose 2 cards!), graverobber the thing back into your hand, and spend the spoils from last turn to buy a province or whatever. One-shot money. Pretty nice if you can get that to work.

Seems like it's a powerful card, but would be hard to get to work right.

11) Shelters: Necropolis, Overgrown Estate, Hovel.

These typically won't change the makeup of the game much. Necropolis is the most useful out of all those, but an extra disappearing village won't make or break an engine.  I suppose with Hovel you might see some earlier Duchy or Province buys if you have one of these in hand, it's free VP.

But, they'll seriously mess up some TFB early-game. Remake is no longer that good, if you're trashing the 1-cost shelters for 2-cost estates instead of estates for silvers! You'll need another 2-cost card on the board to Remake things into. Same with Upgrade.

Other than that, they won't affect much.

---------------
GOKO SPOILERS:
-----------------

The rest of the ruins: Abandoned Mine (+1), Ruined library (+1 card), Ruined Village (+1 action), Survivors (inspect and either discard or put back the top 2 cards of your deck): Eh, they're ok. Less harmful for an engine because you can use them. Just overload on villages and they're not so bad. Still annoying though.

Vagrant: +1 card +1 action, grab the top card of your deck if it's a victory, ruin or curse.  It's the new Pearl Diver - marginally useful in engines, but mostly something to buy when you have $2. Sort of combos with deck-inspection, since you can set up the second card to be junk and thus drawn, but you can't build a strategy around it.

Fortress: +1 card, +2 actions, when you trash it it goes back to your hand. Well, it super-combos with any trash-for-benefit. 4 cards with apprentice! 12-points-per-turn golden deck with these and four bishops! Remodel it into a gold and get it back! Trash it with rats and don't lose it! But unless one of those crazy combos is out, it's a standard village for $4. I think it's pretty obvious how it'll be used, it's just a question of which TFB+Fortress are worth building your entire strategy around and which aren't. Bishop, Apprentice - probably yes, Salvager... eh, you need card draw with that, but great if you have an engine anyway. Remodel/Expand/Graverobber probably not. Upgrade maybe, depends on the other $5s. Turns lookout into a cantrip lol. Counters Saboteur and Swindler pretty well. Rats no.

Ironmonger: Well, after you've ironworksed a card into your deck, you can ironmonger it off the top. It's pretty versatile. IF you get too many of them they're just villages - but hey, with sufficient trashing, in a treasureless deck, it's a village! That's cute. In a BM+X game, it's either a peddler which cycles one extra card, or a lab which cycles one extra card, so pretty neat. But with a chance of turning into a village if you get too many.

Overall, I think it will be an often-bought card, probably even overbought. Quite nice to have, not something you can build a deck around, but good support for anything.

Procession: Well combos with Fortress lol. Fortress+Procession gains you a $5 card, draws you 2 cards and puts the Fortress back in your hand. Not bad, but you need a payload, of a good $5 card. Great if there are lots of cheap actions you want to double and get more expensive actions for. Bad if all the worthwhile actions are at one price point. Village/Smithy/[good $5 action]/[good $6 action] is pretty reasonable, in that case procession will probably be a must-buy. For a minion stack, no. Situationally powerful, but I don't think it's THAT much better than Throne Room. (Unless there's a powerful engine made of X-cost components where the payload is a small number of powerful X+1-cost components).

Scavenger:
Well, 2xScavenger 3xStash is literally the "lucky chancellor". Super-powerful, even against cursing, but not against discard attacks. Really Scavenger is pretty nice. I'd open Scavenger/Silver on a lot of boards I think, whatever I was going for. Put your silvers and golds on top, or whichever engine component is rarer. Great for BM+X and engines, but better for BM because with engines you're probably drawing multiple engine components in hand anyway, you need to guarantee that you draw the right combos, not individual cards. Good with expensive actions like King's Court or Expand, make sure you draw them each shuffle. Okay with single-card engines, but why would your HP/Minions be in the discard anyway? So not so great there probably. With some villages it can fish for particular actions from your deck mid-turn, but might take a little too many cards to get it to work and be useful.

Band of Misfits: Great engine grease! A village if you need it, or a smithy if you need it. But it can't be a power $5. Well, I mean it can't imitate a power $5, it probably is one. Great for imitating cards whose utility runs out, like early-game trashers or sub-$5 cursers. Great when you were going to spend $5 for a Village anyway.

Not so great when something you need gets pile-driven. Don't use this to imitate, like, a Caravan or Fishing Village in 3 or 4player.

Works with - engines with limited trashing (where it's hard to match up components). Engines where there's multiple components costing $4 or less. Games which go through multiple distinct 'phases' where different things are necessary. (A bunch of cursing goes on first, then everyone clears out curses/coppers/estates, then you mega-turn, for example - it can be a Young Witch early, a Steward later, then and a Bridge at the end.)

Conflicts with - engine components costing $5 or more, duh. Power $5s. Components that get  bought out anyway.

Bandit Camp: If you draw that spoils the same turn, it's roughly "+2 actions, +$3". Like a Festival with the buy exhanged for a coin. If you don't, well, then you got +1 card now and +3, -1 card on some future turn. Not so good then. Pretty nice for a pseudo-treasureless engine. Just buy engine parts, and your Bandit Camps will get you the spoils to play for cash. Similar in power to Festival, Bazaar, the lot.

Count! Ah ah ah! Versatile. Can trash in bulk, saving either 1 or 2 cards to the top of your deck or your discard. Terminal gold.

Probably not THAT great. On-play it can be like Mandarin, but Mandarin's not so good. I mean, it'll be used as a trasher when trashers are needed for Dark Ages... And late-game to save cards for next turn and get a Duchy... It's super-versatile, but all the options aren't that amazing.

Well, maybe 'trash your hand' when you've drawn your whole deck. That's pretty nice.

Altar: Straightforward. It's a $6 workshop which gains $5 cards. Altar/City is probably a combo.

Actually, should probably be compared to university, a little. Without the potion cost, but it costs you your first gold and is terminal.

Works with: Spammable $5s. Festival/Altar/Watchtower? Yes please. City/Procession/Altar/Bridge? Super. Altar/Market... meh. Altar/Highway - super, if you also have +buy somewhere. Like on a $5 card.

Probably not so great in a more standard engine game where there's worthwhile sub-$5 components which you can just buy. Works as a pseudo-+buy if there's no +buy, that's pretty good.

----
GENCON SPOILERS
----

Armory - gain a card on your deck costing up to $4. Well the set had to have a workshop variant. Slightly better for engine-building, slightly worse for gardens rushing, mostly about the same usage as workshop. Can obviously do crazy things if you have card draw and villages so you can gain and play things same turn, but that's not going to be the dominant use case I think.

Beggar - awesome with Gardens, of course. It's like a gold in hand if you like coppers. Counting House/Beggar might actually be playable straight up. As a reaction... well, counters top-deck junking and trashing attacks, but does not much vs cursing or discard attacks, so... meh on that front.

Catacombs - it's  a pretty nice Smithy variant. Will work fine in BM+Catacombs, you might cycle 6 cards per play, or know which 3 you're getting so you don't get stuck at $7 or $5. Works reasonably in an engine deck too. I don't think this will bring us many surprises. The on-trash effect seems like it won't be used much, almost an afterthought.

Counterfeit - treasure that gives +buy, amplifies your existing treasures, and trashes them. Going to be a mega-turn enabler - double-play Banks or HoPs or on even golds/plats. Counterfeit+Plat = Colony. In a more standard engine games, it'll be okay if there's no other source of copper trashing and you want copper-trashing, but not great. In that case it's a moneylender-like effect, Counterfeit+Copper = $3 and trashed copper.

Knights - a trashing attack like that seems pretty powerful. But maybe we should know better given how SAboteur is sort of bad. This gives the opponent a choice of what to trash. They can't gain something instead, but what would they usually be gaining, like, silver? And this gives you a benefit too, so this card won't be saboteur-like bad. But it seems amazing at first and I bet it really, really won't be unless you make a knight engine that plays multiples per turn. And of course, thematically - on boards where this is good, the knights will duel each other and kill each other off. Lovely. But yeah, this will end up middle-of-the-pack on Qvists's list and not on top. Which knight is best to get, of course, will depend on the board; all the benefits are roughly comparable but depend on what you need, sometimes what you really need is a village and sometimes what you really need is +2 cards.

Death Cart - oh wow. +$5? But you need to trash an action card! ...but you can trash a ruins, and it even gives you 2 ruins to trash. Great source of engine cash if you can draw it with a ruins. Great if there's cheap $2 actions, especially if there's a cost reducer around. Or maybe you can use it to trash rats. Yep, Death Cart/Rats, there's a synergy there. And of course ironworks/workshop will love this card, assuming you have the actions and handspace to play them.

Forager - it's a copper-trasher that gives $1... at the cost of trashing a copper from your hand... you can power it up by trashing Silvers, but then you power up your opponent's Foragers too... Not so great a card IMO. Can easily get powered up in forge games or something, or when there's a bunch of different Kingdom treasures that you want to trash for whatever reason (Remodel/Expand?) but even then it takes a while to power up and isn't so powerful even when it does. I mean, it's a nonterminal trasher and sometimes you just need a trasher, so it'll get bought, it won't be a dead card, but... Reminds me of Trade Route and Lookout. Similar cost and power.

Hunting grounds - super-smithy! It'll work for making an engine, the on-trash benefit might be a late-game bonus if you ever have reason to use it. Sort of like Catacombs. BM+Hunting Grounds will be awesome if you happen to draw an early $6, but will be really high variance because if you get stuck at $5 for a while you're just playing BM with nothing. I think despite its cost, it'll be workable for making engines happen, but it'll be high-variance there too. Maybe it'll be best as a kicker with one or two of these to really draw your whole deck, with most of the engine made from cheaper bits.

Rogue - now THERE'S a counter to knights. You trash my cards, I get it back! Or trash yours if there's nothing in the trash. Rogues vs knights, the epic battle. Which is better, which is better. Pretty much the same IMO. Knights are higher variance because of the different benefits - sometimes +1 card/+1 action is better than a +$2, sometimes, +2 actions or +2 cards is definitely better than +$2, but +2 buys is often going to be a lot worse than +2. I look forward to angry debates on this site about whether knights or rogues are better and when, but I think they'll pretty much be equivalent most of the time. I'd judge which to get based on the top knight in the pile.

Storeroom - pretty cute! A cellar AND a secret chamber. But terminal, that's not so powerful. You can cycle your estates... and then any estates you draw you can discard... I mean, I guess you can safely discard all your coppers and try to find your golds. But... it's terminal, so not so amazing for engines, when you sort of want to be able to cellar all your treasures to find that village to match up with your smithy. Gonna float to the bottom of Qvist's lists.

Wandering Minstrel - a Village which also sifts the top of your deck for your actions. A reasonable bonus on a $4 village. Great for engines with low trashing, not so great in trimmed ones, but hey, it's always a village.

Mystic - Well, it's a nonterminal silver for $5. If you wish right it's like a Grand Market without the buy, if you wish wrong it's a nonterminal silver. If you have a little top-deck inspection going on it'll be worth it, otherwise... nah.

Urchin/Mercenary - pretty nice. Get some urchins and some villages, let the urchins turn themselves into Mercenaries which then will do both the deck-trashing and the attack part of your deck, as well as giving you coins. But you gotta be really careful, if you over-trash your mercenaries become dead cards. I think this will be quite powerful when you get it to work, but it really requires sort of weird support - you have to have another engine along with it, basically.

junk dealer: OK, this one shouldn't surprise anyone. +1 card + 1 action +1 coin, trash a card - the perfect peddler variant for Dark Ages. Balanced $5 card, probably good in a lot of situations but especially with cards with on-trash benefits (like, the rest of Dark Ages). Cantrip trashers are powerful regardless, so it'll be good even without that.

Market Square: Great with any fast trashers - ramp up your economy while trashing! Combos with, well, any trasher pretty reasonably, and it's cantrip too. And gives +buy for engines. Versatile and good, except in BM+X.

Rebuild - Transform estates to Duchies, Duchies to Provinces, Provinces to Colonies. Pretty nice. Hard to say how fast this is. I bet pure BM+Rebuild won't be as fast as, like, BM+Smithy, this won't be a BM+X card. But with the appropriate support, you can skip buying green entirely and just Rebuild it.

Hmm. Takes 2 plays to transform an estate to a Province. So if you buy two estates and play 10 rebuilds, you get your 5 provinces. But 10 rebuild plays is a lot. I bet a Rebuild deck is possible, but needs support. Feast, Cellar, Throne Room? Sage? Golem-Rebuild... too expensive probably. And hey, KC/KC/Workshop/Rebuild/Rebuild. Gain 3 provinces! But if you're chaining KCs, you have better things to do than "only" gain 3 provinces.

Niche card.

...in general, Dark Ages REALLY hates BM+X. No BM going on here.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 04:18:23 pm by ftl »
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eHalcyon

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2012, 05:46:53 am »
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Sure.

Although the cards won't be on isotropic, so...

(Late Edit: The below "first impressions" are for the previewed cards only.  I also have impressions on leaked cards in this subsequent post.)

Batch 1
Written before reading any other discussion, of course. :)


Graverobber

It is a cheap Expand, but only works on Action cards.  It is conveniently priced at $5, so it can expand itself and dig itself back out of the trash (ZOMBIES).  It is hard to judge this card (probably most of the cards, actually) without knowing what is in the rest of the set.  Thinking of the existing trashers, I don't think the known cards are enough to make Graverobber something to build a deck around.  But DA may have some other interesting trashers and self-trshers that make GR more worthwhile.  As is, however, I think it is pretty decent.  Not a game changer, but average strength.

Poor House

This card looks like a weak version of Horse Traders to me.  HT is very good at getting you to $5, but not much more.  PH guarantees $4, but not much more.  It looks like a phenomenal card for treasureless engines (Scrying Pool, maybe?) and would work well with sifters like Warehouse.  With sufficient trashing to get rid of starting Coppers, I think a particularly strong combo would be TR-PH.  All you need are those two cards in a hand without treasure, and you've got an instant Province.  I think this will be one of those cards that is weak on most boards but absolutely dominating with the right setup.  Looking forward to seeing what other DA cards come up -- particularly strong combo pieces that cost $4 or less.

Sage

Looks like it might be a good way to get combo pieces in line, but you need a relatively treasureless deck (in that Silver would get in the way of Sage).  Otherwise, I can't see this card being particularly powerful.  Maybe some other DA cards will change that.


Batch 2

Feodum: obvious combo is now my favourite combo -- Feodum+Trader.  Throw in a Graverobber and you could Trader Feodum for 7 Silver and get the Feodum back.  If you don't want the Feodum but need the cash, Watchtower lets you get 3 Silver for $4.  I like it a lot.

Cultist: Interesting!  At first glance this looks really strong.  With no other actions, each Cultist is a Lab that pseudo-Curses.  The trashing bonus seems relatively weak compared to the card itself, but there are probably other DA cards that work well with it.  Cultist looks strong.

Ruins: The Market is one.  There will probably be one that gives +1 action or +2 action, though the former might as well be a Confusion.  There will probably be a +1 buy and a +$1 as well.  I expect they will all be Action cards.

As Actions, Graverobber could be a decent way to remove them.  Probably inefficient though.

One question is how it interacts with Ambassador/Jester.  I expect in that case, you treat each type of Ruins as the same.  Although there are five different ones, they are all mixed up in the same supply pile.  So you might return a Ruined Market and someone else gets a Ruined Village?  Hm.


Batch 3

Squire

In general comparison to Steward, Squire is definitely a bit weaker.  This is reflected in the $2 price.  You might buy it for the extra actions or buys if the Kingdom otherwise lacks those resources.

At first glance it looks to be superior to its fellow $2 choice card, Pawn.  But one of the best uses of Pawn is non-terminal +Buy, which you cannot do with Squire.

The most interesting thing is the on-trash effect.  In Kingdoms without trashers, on-trash effects are inaccessible (barring a crazy new DA rule -- trash a card every turn unless you reveal a Shelter??).  When trashing is available, Squire is still pretty narrow.  It's not as reliable as a Feast because you have to line it up with the trasher.

Of non-DA cards, the main ones to Squire would be Familiar and Goons.  Depending on the trashers available, getting a potion is probably an easier route for Familiar.  But it works so well with Goons.  Goons wants heavy trashing too, so you can get down to a nice multi-Goons engine.  Squire can be a moneyless way to get Goons, and it will also act as a source of Actions, and even +Buy to close out your final megaturn!

You might also pick it up in games with heavy trashing where your early economy will be terrible.  You could chapel down to a thin deck and miraculously pop a few Squires into Cultists...

I think Squire will probably have quite narrow use.  But in certain Kingdoms, it will be essential.

(Edit-within-edit: I predict that there will be an expensive new attack card named something like Knight.)

Hermit

The trashing is slow, and the benefit is a static mini-Workshop.  However, trashing from the discard is, I think, better than trashing from the hand.  For one thing, you don't lose a card in-hand.  In the mid-to-late game, your discard pile will on average be larger than your hand as well.  Therefore, I expect Hermit will be a fantastic DA-combo-enabler, picking out cards and trashing them for on-trash benefit.

One interesting (3+ card) combo is TR/KC-Hermit-Squire-(Attack card).  TR/KC the Hermit, gain a Squire.  Use the next Hermit to trash the Squire and gain an Attack.  You can even gain another Squire to trash with the next Hermit, if you are so inclined.

Madman

Hermit is also like a delayed one-shot Tactician.  You skip your buy to get a future-Tactician in Madman.  Madman is a little weaker than Tactician, but still pretty good.  You lose out on a +Buy, but it can have a stronger effect if you have a bit of card-drawing ability.  From the wording, it looks like Madman isn't throneable.  Too bad.


Batch 4

Rats

This is the next DA design rule breaker -- no more than 10 cards in a supply pile.  Well, I don't know if it was really a rule, though I was always against cards that took up extra supply space.  But Rats definitely works better with 20!

So Rats is actually quite a liability.  If you don't have a way to get rid of them, they will destroy your deck from the inside.  Watchtower is useful, of course -- stop Rats as they come in.  Other TFB would also be helped by all the fodder.  I can't think of situations where you want Rats unless there is another trasher available.  Maybe something will come up in a future preview.

Also, I really, really hope that there is some sort of Pied Piper card.

Pillage/Spoils

My first thought -- awesome wordplay.  The attack doesn't benefit your current turn.  In that, it is like Sea Hag and Saboteur.  Hag is amazing, Sab is not so much.  Pillage costs $5 like Sab.  But the attack is likely to hurt a LOT, especially after the early game.  No wonder it's a one-shot.

The Spoils are a nice little prize too.  That they are also one-shot... hm.  The wording on the card means that Pillage is throneable/KC-able, giving you much more Spoils than usual.

Since everything about Pillage and Spoils disappears after use, it might be a very nice way to kickstart a treasureless deck.  Spoils can provide the cash you need for your first Grand Market or Goons, and then you're off to the races.  This is further facilitated by Squire, in that Squire can get you to Pillage without treasure as well!


Batch 5

Shelters

Menagerie gets an unneeded boost.  Fairground is better too!  HoP is sort of better as well, in that Necropolis is one more unique playable card that you start with.  Ambassador kind of takes a hit, which is fine.  (Edit: and Donald actually addressed all those in his starting writeup, ha.)  Jester also gets a slight nerf, in that there are less starting VP to hit.

You might not want to trash Necropolis, huh.  Also, Ruined Village is probably going to be either "+1 Action" or "+2 Actions, discard X Cards", or +2 Actions with some other drawback.

Interestingly, you might opt not to pass Overgrown Estate using Masquerade -- trashing it yourself might be better, and if your opponent is the one who played Masq then you might not want to pass it because it might help him out when he trashes it!

Hovel is only better than Overgrown Estate when there isn't any trashing on the board, heh.  I expect that will be less likely with Dark Ages cards on the board.  Oh well!

OH.  HUNTING PARTY HATES THESE.

Nothing else interesting that I can think of.  Looking forward to seeing the full set!
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 05:06:54 pm by eHalcyon »
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Grujah

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2012, 05:48:39 am »
0

Here goes nothing:

Batch #1 - Don't really dig the cards.  :(

Graverober -Huh. This has a Minion-y feel to it. You either draw 2 and jump with joy, or get 1 and set it up for next time. Gonna work with Sage? Royal Seal? Scheme? i.e. stuff that can setup you for a province. Will own with Peddler + Colony. Like, seriously. I think it will often be a trap that many will fall into, Develop style.

One more thing: Everytime this gets play I am going to get haunted by Joey Wealer from Yu-gi-Oh: Power of Chaos: Joey the Passion and him yelling "I bet you didn't think I'm gonna activate this! Graverobba!" at me.


Poor House - Ok, I think its really hard to get a grip on this one. Kida like .. Harvest? Reverse Coppersmith? Duchess? As it can be a free pickup and is terminal vmoney. Of course, I see 2 situations where this matters. Ok, 3.
1) One is with Upgrade/Remake where it might be more of a liability than a boost. You replace bad non-terminal with bad-terminal. Ugh. Unless you can really provide for it, and I find that rare as you need at least some villages, it completely weakens Remake/Upgrade.
2) Some kind of huge virtual money strategy. I am trying to imagine opening Mint/Poor House, but .. uh, not really. I guess Vault works, but it needs a village. I guess it will own in Scrying Pool games. Like, any current setup where SP is strong, add this and now its supperstrong. Also in other virtual money strats (Conspirators come to mind, esp with +buy supplements).
3) You are greening like hell. Probably some alternate VP. Drawing this can get you a Silk Road or Gardens or something like that.
But, I think this will be crap, usually more a liability than a boost. There will be few games where this owns.


Sage - Hmm.. Schemesque card.This one I like the most. I see 3 potential uses for this one:
1) Getting to that important 5$+ faster without them colliding. Like, strong Attacks (Witch, Mountebank, Ghost Ship, Goons). Of course, that includes Gold too (could be good replacement for Silver in BM, as if I understand BM) but one thing I hope to try out and see if it works is Sage + Phil Stone in a slug game. It gets past your crap and gets you phil stone hopefully often enough.
2) Setting up combos. Ie, helps you get that Tour/Porv, TrMap/TrMap, KC/Action, Vault/Gold together in your hand, without having too many of said cards. Would actually love to see TrMap + Sages, I predict awesome combo, as when you activate TMs Sages basically turn into gold (no need to buy silvers during game at all too)
3) Getting through all crap in slugfest games, especially good vs attacks that mess with top of your deck. Ironically, strong vs Ghost Ship, but as per 1) also provides for GS. So is a must in a GS game.
Conflicts with: Silver (unless you want it often, but then you could have just bought it), Duchies, any alt VP.
Will be great supporter. Optimistic guess: Warehouse level strong.

Feodum - Without trash effect totes boring. With it, so cool! Of course, boosts Silver gainers.
Prediction: Better than SR and Gardens!  :o One good thing is that it can also be used as a supplement more than a core strategy, which isn't case with gardens and only so - powerful with SR.

Cultist - It's a junker attack that doesn't mind collisions. It can really crappify opponent decks really fast for that reason, faster than Witch, probably even MB. Now, these are worse than coppers and better than curses, but I still think it will be quite strong as it floods you really really fast. Trash effect is OK, quite nice if you have non-terminal trasher (Upgrade, Apprentice) or Salvager which gives + Buys. Good counter to Bishops and Governors, too, I guess ?

Squire - will be great. Among top 2$. Great in any situations. When you lack actions otherwise, when you really need those buys, when you want cheap attacks.. very versatile - it main strength.

Hermit/Madman - Hermit has limited use - it is not bad per se, trashing from discard .. but it ain't great. Madman will be new hit-big-or-lose kinda strategy. Sometimes a trap, but usually, if setup up right, a beast. Will be among high 3s, but not THAT high as it will be trap on some boards (buyless mainly).

Rats - GIANT TRAP. It sounds fun and cool, but unless you can really get read of them fast and even get something good out of it they dominate your deck and you lose. Their only use will be free, 4$ food for your trash-for-benefits, like Savager, Upgrade, Bishop and the likes.

Pillage - Early game booster - because of the spoils, and end game destroyed - because of the discard. Also endgame finisher cuz of the boost among those greens. Will be strong, mid-high five. Will own if you can play him immediately (Watchtower, royal seal), or play those spoils immediately (same deal). Also with TR/KC.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 02:51:50 pm by Grujah »
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Lekkit

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2012, 06:03:15 am »
+1

So am I. But I'll write my initial thoughts since they will probably amuse someone. :)

1st preview:

So. Grave Robber. This card seems good. If there are cards like Swindler or Saboteur, I think this could be viable. In itself, it's also a mini-expand, which makes getting a bunch of theese a good idea. Could possibly be some kind of new Governor rush-thingie. Buy only Grave Robbers, trash them with each other and retrieve them. Also very fun interaction with Feast.

Poor House. Money-less decks will love this. Also, one of the best friends of Upgrade's. Trash a Copper, gain a Poor House; get rid of what makes Poor House worse and gain a Poor House. However, I think this is one of those cards that doesn't really work in most of the games but when it does work, it's really good.

Sage. Addin these to Hunting Parties will be great. Don't really think it will be a lot better than, say Warehouse or Farming Village in the long run.

2nd Preview:

Feodum. I don't think this card will be as prominent as Gardens or Silk Roads, but every once in a while there will be a good kingdom for it. My first thought is that it's great with Trader. Then I realised it's also very nice with a turn1/2 Chapel. Probably one of the better x/Chapel openings that isn't an attack. I'm really looking forward to playing with this.

Cultist. This card seems like a really god card. When building an engine, get these first and Villages later. They string together if you draw them "dead" and they will probably be about as fast as Familiar. Without the awkward Potion cost. One of the game-warping $5s.

Ruined Market. Better to have in the deck than a curse, but just barely. Will be fun with Gardens, though. And Fairgrounds, as mentioned.

Preview 3:

Squire. This car will enable engines. A lot. And probably work somewhat with Feodum. But Engines will probably want this card. Actions, coins or double buy.

Heremit. Not really convinced about this card. Seems super powerful as an opener if you draw it on your second hand. Trash Estate, gain something usefull (Silver) don't buy anything and get a super hand next reshuffle. Looking forward to trying this card.

Madman. A really strong card. Not easy to get, though. I guess that's why it can be so strong. Very nice for mega turns, but can also be great in the beginning for a serious extra boost.



« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 05:21:37 am by Lekkit »
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engineer

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2012, 06:05:24 am »
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Oh, I'm in.  Where I'm from, they call this "theorycrafting."  Always good for a laugh.

Okay, I'm not looking at anybody else's analysis until after I write mine, so apologies if I sound redundant.

Graverobber: This card seems like it will be very swingy.  First, it lets you catapult $3 opening terminals into gold, if you are lucky enough to get a collision.  Second, since  you will probably have competition from other graverobbers, there could be a situation where one really good card in the trash could decide the game, and the first person to draw their graverobber will get it.

This card will also be super strong with throne room or king's court.  A hand with TR+graverobber+$5 action could gain a province and leave the $5 on top of the deck for next turn. TR+graverobber+$3 could do the same with gold.  Of course, those hands aren't easy to hit early -- but, again, I think that will add to the swinginess.

Poor house: I like the $1 cost, and I like the -1 treasure.  I was waiting for cards that do that, and Dark Ages, with its "poor" theme, seemed like the place to do it.  This would be really interesting for any actions/cards engine, since you won't have too many treasures in an engine deck.  Stacking multiples of these will be powerful, even if you have a treasure or two. 

Also, any card that lets you discard bunches of cards will obviously be a powerful combo: cellar and warehouse come to mind.  Even cantrips with a discarding "downside" like oasis would be really powerful.  I'm really curious how an oasis/PH opening could fare.

Sage: First thing that comes to mind: Don't buy silvers.  There's no point to revealing a silver with the sage -- after all, if you'd bought a silver instead of the sage, you'd have the silver in hand already.  The obvious utility of this card, in my mind, is smoothing an engine early on when trashing isn't available.  Early game, it will jump over all your coppers and estates to pick up your other engine cards.  Later on, as Donald pointed out, it gets tripped up by provinces, so the sage might be good grave robber fodder in the midgame.

Feodum: This is pretty vanilla -- like Donald said, it's sorta the last angle that wasn't done on card-counting victory cards.  I understand why it doesn't count copper or gold, but it would be cool if it counted other treasures.  Obviously, Trading Post combos with a Feodum deck and Trader is a super-mega-combo.  I mean, Trade can make your deck explode into a shower of silver, so I wouldn't be surprised if you could get 6-point feodums using it.  If these two cards are on the table, will they always be the dominant strategy?

Cultist: I like this card a lot.  First of all, I really like the idea of a heterogeneous deck of curses.  Somebody did that in a fan expansion and I thought it was a really cool and unexplored space.  The card that happens to sit atop the ruins deck might actually affect your strategy, though probably only slightly.  I also really like the idea that these curses aren't curses -- just much less useful cards.

As for the cultist itself, I feel like this will play somewhat like Minion, at least insofar as its effectiveness will increase as the cultist density increases.  I guess they're really more like laboratories that are less flexible: you can't just insert a cantrip into a cultist deck and be on your way.  Unless you're using villages, once you start the cultist chain, that's all you can play.  We know that labs alone make for a mediocre engine, but these cultists come with a nice attack, so it will be interesting to see which is preferred if both are on the table.  I'm guessing the cultist, because we know how powerful cursing attacks are.

Ruined Market: Well, this card is pretty straightforward.  I'm curious if there's ever a situation where you'd rather buy a ruins than a copper.  Obviously, Donald's hint implies that there will be a +1 card, +1 action, and +$1 ruins.  I think the +1 buy is the most useful -- sometimes you really need that extra buy!  Since this is a silly prediction thread, I'm going to guess at the names of these other ruins.  +1 card = ruined laboratory, +1 action = ruined village, and +$1 = ruined house.  I'm making this prediction on 8/7/12 -- hopefully I go at least 1 for 3!

Squire:  Wow.  When there are strong, expensive attacks on the table, this cards seems...really, really strong.  Open chapel/squire, get a Goons on a lucky turn 3/4?  That's a $4 jump.  And it would get even crazier if a $7 attack ever came out.  Cost aside, a turn 3 goons on a trimmed down deck would be pretty devastating.  I feel like there should be a $5 limit on the gained card, or something.

Crazy TFB effect aside, the squire itself is pretty useful as an extra source of actions if your engine is too heavy on smithy-types and you can't afford a village that turn.  In that way, it functions like a crossroads, which I think is already recognized as a great $2.  Taken as a whole, I think squire will easily be one of the best $2 cards.

Note, by the way, that the cost exempts the squire from the gravedigger.  I imagine we're going to see more self-upgrading cards at the $2 price point, specifically to avoid interaction with gravedigger.

Hermit: This card also seems very powerful.  You will almost certainly be able to use it to replace estates with silvers every time you play it.  The fact that you can trash a card from your discard makes collision much less of an issue.  Once you've tossed your three estates, you can automatically trash this card to convert it into ...

Madman: OK, so this is basically a 1-shot mega-lab.  If you have one of these in an engine deck, its minimum payoff is "+2 actions, +4 cards," and its maximum payoff is "dude, just put the rest of your deck into your hand."  If your engine deck is decent, then you could easily have 7-10 cards in your hand from other labs/smithys before you play the madman.  Think about that: +2 actions, +9 cards?!  Well, I'd say the name is accurate.  This sounds crazy.  This card is basically a megaturn-enabler.

Oh, and by the way, if you open squire/hermit, then you can gain almost certainly gain any attack on the table by the second shuffle -- all you have to do is draw your squire before *or* with your hermit!  Yikes.  Or -- even better! Open hermit/hermit, use the first hermit you see to get a squire, and use the second to turn the squire you just gained into a goons.  Ouch!

Rats: I really like the idea of this card.  I think this is my favorite new card so far, for a couple reasons: first, even though it doesn't introduce new mechanics, it seems like it will completely change the way your game plays out.  Second, it's so thematically perfect!  The rats aren't a problem at first, but they will inevitably multiply to a point where you actively need to stamp them out of your deck.  I also think rats go very well with ruins.  In a deck that's ruined by ruins and/or curses, rats might be a very fast way to clear out the clutter if you have an effective plan for exterminating the rats.

A couple obvious observations: barring separate effects like watchtower, rats don't really reduce your deck size.  (What a combo though...watchtower+rats = trashing lab!)  In that sense, they aren't really trashers.  They do, however, replace a useless card with a cantrip (i.e. more rats).  The problem is, rats are only a cantrip as long as you have something to feed them.  Eventually, when you run out of targets, the rats are as unplayable and useless as the cards they replaced.  So they really only provide temporary relief from clutter -- you'll still need a strong trasher to deal with the rat problem, but it might be easier to get to the other trasher for a couple of shuffles, and that might be all the help you need.  As a bonus, when you do manage to trash the rats, you get a card.  The card is a minor benefit because nearly all trashers in the game are terminals, so you'll likely be drawing dead, but it does give you the chance for greater buying power.

This is a cool card.  Donald has actually played with it, and if he likes it so much, then I'm confident that it will live up to my expectations.

Pillage: A one-shot super-nasty attack that also gives you two one-shot golds.  Because of the one-shot nature of the card, it's really hard for me to judge when it will be worth it. The attack is definitely nasty: without doing the math, I imagine that you can easily demonstrate how much worse the average dominion hand is if you remove the best card.  It will hurt a BM deck at any stage of the game, probably eliminating the chance of buying a gold early or a province late.  For engine decks, this probably destroys a hand in the early and midgame, before the action density is so high that you'll have multiple villages and smithies in each hand. 

But, on the other hand, $5 for a card you only get to use once is expensive, no doubt about it.  Obviously, you don't get your money's worth if the attack is blocked, even with the spoils as a consolation prize.  A successful block probably hurts a lot more than other attack cards.  Secret chamber will gain a whole new meaning with this card: use secret chamber to make your current hand as bad as possible!

Spoils: These are an interesting idea.  I like that there are multiple cards that give them out, as Donald mentioned.  Obviously you'd almost always rather keep a gold around than see it disappear: it's a really rare engine deck that doesn't want at least a couple golds.  These cards are clearly going to be more useful the sooner you get them: they can catapult you to actual golds much earlier than normal.  Because of the interaction with Pillage, I feel like there will be a lot of opening luck: a 5/2 opening that grabs a pillage will probably see gold a lot faster than a 4/3 opening, both because of the attack and the spoils.


« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 01:45:13 pm by engineer »
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Davio

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2012, 06:13:15 am »
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Being wrong about new cards and discovering their strengths and weaknesses is what I like most about Dominion.


Graverobber - I suspect this will be an underachiever or at least very specific, but it may combo well with other cards from Dark Ages, that's hard to gauge at this time. Messing with the trash has always been tricky as we see in many fan cards. Mind you that this card costs $5 and this is a highly contested price point, Witch and Mountebank are also here. Still, a cheaper Expand that only works on Actions can be fine for an early Oasis -> Grand Market, but soon you'll be running out of Action cards and you may want that Woodcutter back. The other thing it has against it is that it's a terminal. Terminals are always carefully measured against each other. We could care less about non-terminals, but you only want so much terminals and I don't think graverobber will be one of them often. It would be interesting if you have to worry about Salvaging/Remodeling Provinces, but you need Bridge or Highway for that.

Poor House - Okay, so we finally have a $1 card and it's an action focused one, that seems easy enough. Minion decks might like it and Scrying Pools, otherwise it will often be a terminal Silver or even Copper. Cantrip chains will end up drawing the same cards you would have drawn anyway. But hey, it costs $1 so we shouldn't expect much from it. I wonder if it's really going to hurt Upgrades and Remakes.

Sage - To me this seems like a slightly worse Farming Village, so $3 might be right. It feels a bit like Scheme in a sense that it doesn't really do anything on its own, but it can be a help if you ever have a spare buy or gain. On its own it's not enough for me to open Ironworks, but it may be a nice target if other Ironworks targets are out there. A card like Sage never hurts and cards like that are always in high demand. Goons will love it.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 01:19:23 pm by Davio »
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Qvist

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2012, 06:14:24 am »
+1

Poor House
Combos with: Vault/Secret Chamber and Black Market
Decent in cursing games or against discard attacks
But I think this is good with heavy trashing in a non-money engine
Good to pile out ;)
Of course it's no power card, it only costs $1
Mint/Poor House could even be a good opening.
Beware of Upgrade, Remake when this is in the supply.
$1/$2 #12 out of #18

Sage
In the beginning this is great for getting your $4 in hand on turn 3. Sage/Sea Hag for example even if your oponent flipped your Sea Hag.
Later this seems pretty weak. I think this filter mechanic is better in cursing games and it counters Ghost Ship.
$3 #13 out of 28

Grave Robber
Very hard to evaluate. But it seems weak at first glance.
It's trashing is pretty powerful, like an Expand, but limited to Action cards. So it's no good opener.
It combos with itself to get a Province.
It might be good with against Trash-for-Benefit card decks like Salvager, Apprentice or Bishop.
$5 #41 32 out of 54

Feodum
Combos with: Trader, obviously.
Ok, a straight forward one. But, how strong will it be? With Trader, an absolute powerhouse.
Bureaucrat and Explorer might also work very well with it. With Ironworks/Workshop the rush may also work.
Although three-piling is generally very hard here. Not so strong as Gardens or Silk Road at first glance.
Then there's the on-trash benefit. So, let's say I have 5 3-points Feodums(?) with 9 silver and trash one. Now I have 4 4-point Feodums, 1-point more and better economy. So, I want to trash them if I have more Feodums than they are worth right?
Maybe you even don't want to 3-pile. Just get Feodums and Silver and then Provinces. I'm not sure.
$4 #20 out of 49

Cultist
Obviusly very strong. The main action is like a worse Witch, but there's also the not-colliding and on-trash benefit.
The not-colliding bonus is very strong, but I'm not so sure about the on-trash benefit.
That could lead to some strange combos. I buy a Farmland, trash a Cultist and draw 3 cards which I cannot play anymore.
Or: Opponent plays Bishop, I trash Cultist and 3 cards. Then opponent plays Militia: Nooooo!
And: With Familiar (or any other Curser) and Cultist on the board, this will be madness!
$5 #2 out of 54

Ruins
Not much to say about Ruined Market per se. Of course it's bad. A few words about this concept. I'm still not sure if I like it because it can be very swingy depending how the other Ruins will look like. +1 Card, +1$, +1Action probably.

Update: Yes, 3 of the other 4 Ruins are +1 Card, +1$ and +1 Action. Ruined Library, Ruined Mine and Ruined Village respectively. Ruined Village is the worst of them all because it's only useful in rare edge cases. Ruined Market is very occasional, can even help, but more often useless. Ruined Library is bad in general because you draw the card you would have drawn without spending that action. Ruined Mine is a Copper for spending an Action of course bad too, but less useless as the other ones I think. Then there's Survivors which is a Ruined Navigator. Hard to rank these yet, but I would say: #1 Ruined Mine, #2 Ruined Market, #3 Survivors, #4 Ruined Library, #5 Ruined Village

Squire
So, you either have a half Fishing Village or a Woodcutter that gives an additional buy instead of money or you have a Workshop limited to Silver.
So basically you have a mix of 3 worse $3 cards, but the flexibility is great, especially on boards with no village or no +Buy. Similarities to Pawn are obvious.
Hamlet is great because it gives you actions and buys, so I think that is very useful in engines too.
And then there's this crazy on-trash ability which seams crazy powerful with trashers and attacks on the board. The last two essential parts for engines.
You can now easily gain Familiars or Goons. Every Remodel-like card now gives you 2 cards instead of one and Develop even gives you 3 cards if Poor House is on the board. Seems very powerful.
$1/$2 #4 out of #19

Hermit / Madman
Hermit is like a Reverse Loan. It trashes from your discard pile instead from your deck and is restricted to non-treasure cards instead to treasure cards. As an opener it can trash Estates and gain Silvers. The gain a $3 card part seems very bad (in comparism to Workshop), but really depends on the kingdom. Of course it's helpful against Curser and Looter. The second part just seems crazy. You aren't allowed to buy a card (but gained a $3 card) and then gain a Madman.

Madman is a one-shot village, built for mega-turns. If you play Madman in a Tactician turn, you have 18! cards in hand. Maybe some Bridge combo is possible with this,  it's still blows my mind, hard to evaluate this. It's like a mega one-shot Crossroads.
$3 #9 out of 28

Rats
Cool theme, but it seems terrible at first glance. You have to gain a Rats if you trash a card and you can't trash Rats with Rats. So you definitely need another trasher if you want Rats. But with another trasher, why buy Rats in the first place?? I'm still not understanding this card, especially for the high cost of $4. Again there's a combo with Watchtower. You can trash a card with a Laboratory. This will be great.
$4 #47 out of 49

Pillage / Spoils
A one-shot attack for targetted discarding. And you get 2 one-sot Golds from that. That's of course the strongest dicarding attack, but it's only a one-shot. Very hard to evaluate.
I think the attack is weak in the beginning: Basically a one-shot Cutpurse, but it gains you two early Golds. Later in the game the attack gets stronger, but you maybe won't be able to see those Golds again. I think this a decent attack, but no power $5. Maybe a Pillage rush is possible where you pick up Pillages to gain Spoils and buy Provinces as fast as you can.
$5 #27 out of 54

Vagrant
A mix of Laboratory and Scout. But I like to compare it to Pearl Diver. If it fails you know at least the card on top of your deck. Pearl Diver knows the bottom card which is worse. It it hits you have a Laboratory and this is especially nice with Nobles/Harem/Great Hall etc. If Pearl Diver hits, the card is on top of your deck which might be better, but can also be worse. I think this will be generally be better, but still very ocassional and no power $2.
$1/$2 #11 out of #19

Fortress
Another vanilla village for $4 with a benefit. Of course it really depends from trash for benefit cards on the board. I think some crazy combos will be possible with this, but this will still be no power card. Worker's Village, Farming Village, Mining Village and Walled Village will all be more useful on average.
$4 #41 out of 49

Ironmonger
So, this is a spy with no attack part, but a bonus for you. I think that's more useful. Especially if you draw a victory card, you can discard it (bonus) and draw an additional card (Lab bonus). That can be pretty strong. If you hit a treasure, you have a Peddler which is a solid $4 card and if you hit an action card you have a village. That's probably the least useful case because similar to Tribute you don't want to depend building an engine on swingy draw, but still may be a useful addition to any engine. A solid mid-ranged card.
$4 #21 out of 49

Procession
The comparism to Throne Room is obvious. While you can do TR/TR/X/Y as a village replacement, you probably don't want to build an engine with Procession like that. If there's no Action card available in a specific price slot then this is a one-shot TR. When there's a strong board with good cards on every price slot, then this is going to be better than TR. But how often will that be the case? I think the "exactly" makes it very board-dependant and therefore weaker in general than Throne Room.
$4 #28 out of 49

Scavenger
Wow, that's now the better Chancellor. And I think putting one card on top of your deck is huge for $1 more. Let's say you have an engine and you play a village and then Scavenger and have another village or cantrip in hand. You can now choose which card you will draw with that cantrip. Pretty powerful in engines. I'm not sure how powerful this is in Big Money games, but putting back Golds is also powerful. Scavenger/Stash is now even more powerful than Chancellor/Stash. With 2 Scavengers and 3 Stashes you basically have a guaranteed Province.
$4 #8 out of 49

Band of Misfits
Crazy card which seams really powerful. The big restriction is that you can only can choose up to $4. Interesting is also that it doesn't say "up to $4". So you don't get benefit from Highway+BoM. This will be good with trashers on the board because they often cost less than $5 and are often not in hand when you need them and are terminal. So, if you draw it with your trasher, play it as a cantrip and then play your trasher. It's flexibility is good, especially with a strong board. I haven't read the whole thread about that card that already exists, but yeah, it can produce some crazy edge cases rule-wise I just don't try to imagine.
$5 #14 out of 54

Bandit Camp (+ Spoils)
That's another vanilla village which gains a one-shot Gold each time you play it. I still have a really hard time trying to figure out how good one-shots are. $5 for a village is still very expensive and I don't know if I rather want a Bazaar for a guaranteed $1 everytime or gain a one-shot Gold. I think with some extra-buy this card can really accelate building an engine. But I think it's worse than Bazaar.
$5 #28 out of 54

Count
So many choices. Let's evaluate all 9 choices:
#1) Discard 2 cards, $3 => an expensive Horse Traders, good in cursing or Alternative victory card games
#2) Discard 2 cards, trash your hand => I think this is rarely chosen, maybe with 2 Mountebanks and 2 curses in hand?
#3) Discard 2 cards, gain a Duchy => Option #6 and #9 are better IMO
#4) Put a card on top of your deck, $3 => Mandarin without the on-gain
#5) Put a card on top of your deck, trash your hand => if you have a 5/2 split this is your choice as pseudo-Chapel.
#6) Put a card on top of your deck, gain a Duchy => Duke games where you put the other Count or a Silver back!
#7) Gain a copper, $3 => In the late game very useful
#8) Gain a copper, trash your hand => rarely used I think
#9) Gain a copper, gaine a Duchy => Another good option for Duke games
I think the flexibility makes this a good card in some situations although its choices are often only a $4 card. Still hard to evaluate because of the many choices.
$5 #34 out of 54

Altar
Would be a crazy good opener. That's the reason it costs $6, I suppose. You basically have free choice what to gain, so a very strong card. What do you expect from a $6 card? Trash a Cultist, +3 Cards, gain another one... Of course there's the risk that you can't play it because you have lots of good cards in hand. Beware playing with it with Golem. Definitely superior to Gold if your building an engine.
$5 #5 out of 15

I added also my list predictions.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 06:15:28 pm by Qvist »
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2012, 06:57:52 am »
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Graverobber- This card will depend on the self trash cards in the set, but I can assume they will be good. Turning a 5 action into a province late game is really strong too, or that chapel into a 5 action. I think will be strong in Dark Ages heavy games, and useful otherwise

Poor House- Our first 1 card! Welcome to broken remake and upgrade interactions! But, it could be super strong in engines, where if you trash all your treasure and only use this for money.  Scrying pool decks will particularly like it. Useless in big money though. Not a weak card per say, probably in the top half of 2, and now 1 cards. Very weak at the beginning, can get progressively better.

Sage- Seems like a nice card to have to find that extra part in a engine. But would get worse when it can find duchies/ provinces. A nice card to have, but nothing special. Midrange 3 card. Probably a nice opening so that your 4 doesn't miss the resuffle, that might be its strongest power..
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Feodum- Seems weaker then gardens and silk road. Of course, an awesome combo with trader. Still, not too hard to get up to 3 in big money type games with 9 silvers. Makes it a little cheaper duchy.

Cultist- Wow, this is neat. I think ruins are better to have in your deck then curses, as they actually do something. But, the +3 Cards if trashed is great when all of the ruinses ruin out. +5 Cards gives you a pretty good shot at a province. I'd guess in the top 10 of 5 cards, maybe even top 5. But, I don't think better then witch/mountebank in the top flight.

Ruined Market- So, the other 3 ruinses I think are +1 card, +1 action and +1 money. I'd put this one 3rd, behind action and money. It could be useful in engines if this is the only source of plus buy, though.
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Squire- Seems like a very nice pseudo village. Village effect is a first turn fishing village, which is nice. The option for 2 buys super strong in an engine, and gaing silver can help with alt VP, including Feodum. The trash is a cool option. Opening squire/ chapel and then trashing this to grab familiar makes it strong, I think getting familiar or maybe Scrying pool is the best option.

Hermit- Basically guarientees a trash of a curse in a cursing game, which is pretty sweet. The gain a card up to three option is nice to get silvers to help in cursing slogs, where the top of card has its best use. The bottom part, man, that's hard to judge. I think though it be worth it to not buy a 3 card in your turn to get madman. A mid to strong 3 card I think, better in cursing games

Madman- This is the strongest printed card in the game. +4 cards +2 actions is what it will provide, but of course as a one shot. Saving these up for a mega turn is a very viable possibly, or just using it whenever. Makes buying hermit a thought in every game
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Rats- Seems pretty weak at 4. A terminal trasher is really nice, but the problem with rats is that you sin another one every time you play it. Turns it into a dead card late game. Good with trashers, obviously

Pillage- A super strong  attack. The fact it's a one shot, however, nerfs it alot. I'd say about in the top half of 5 cards, but not top quarter. The one shot gold for free is pretty nice. Will work well for money in engines.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 10:53:43 am by Tdog »
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LastFootnote

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2012, 07:49:36 am »
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Graverobber: Seems like a card that combos well with itself. Remodel a Remodel to get Gold? Meh. Graverob a Graverobber to get a Province? Now we're talking. I think it'll combo well with University. But it's such an exotic card that I have a hard time visualizing how it's going to play.

Poor House: That's one wacky card! I think you'd have to have a lot of moving parts in order to make this worthwhile: good Copper trashing, Villages, perhaps other virtual coin, etc. That being said, Upgrade and Remake will have a harder time trashing Copper unless you want a LOT of Poor Houses. Very cool.

Sage: The closest comparison seems to be Scheme. Sage accelerates your cycling, though, while Scheme decelerates it slightly. Also, I can't see myself opening with Sage. If it collides with your other opening Buy, it's basically, "+1 Action. Put your deck into your discard pile." Only if I didn't care at all about quickly hitting $5 would I attempt this.

Feodum: Woohoo! I never though I could like a card that counted Treasures, but I'm pretty amped about this one. I think I'd go for it in the presence of either a strong Silver-gainer (Bureaucrat, Explorer, Jack of all Trades), or a decent trash-for-benefit card, or both. I'll probably overbuy it because I love alt VP and Silver-based decks.

Cultist: That's a lot of effects packed into a single card, but as usual, they all fit together nicely. The ability to play them in a chain makes you want to buy more of them than you'd otherwise buy, but you can trash them afterward for a benefit. I think it's not quite as massively powerful as it looks, but I'll probably buy at least one or two unless there's some good deck thinning available.

Squire: As far as the on-play effect goes, its utility is going to be pretty situational. I think I'll be using the 'gain a Silver' option most of the time when I do decide to get Squires. +2 Actions/+$1 isn't awful, but when you're trying to build an engine, vanilla Village is usually better, I think. The +2 Buys/+$1 is even more situational and I wonder how often I'll choose it AND actually make use of both extra buys. The on-trash benefit is very cool, but it's not often easy to activate quickly and you usually want those attacks ASAP. I think it might boost attacks that are better in the late-game (like deck muckers). Remodel a Squire into two Spies? Hmm…

Hermit/Madman: OK, Madman is cool, but I think it's going to be overrated early on. It's a one-shot super-City, so it seems great for engines. But the thing about engine components is that you want to keep them in your deck so that you can draw your deck turn after turn. A one-shot engine component is probably not something you should be relying on. It's something I'll probably pick up opportunistically, rather than shooting for. Hermit, on the other hand, seems great to me. It looks like a phenomenal deck-thinner in games with Curse-givers and/or Looters. And it gains Silver or other $3 cards on top of that, which also helps when your deck is getting swamped with crappy cards.

Rats: Well, this is the most game-changing card since Possession. Possibly the most game-changing card period. It converts other cards into itself. Clearly it's meant to work with other trashers, especially trash-for-benefit cards. The $4 price tag is actually an advantage. You're converting your Coppers/Estates/Curses/Ruins into cards that are intrinsically worthless, but provide value upon trashing. The real questions for each game will be, "Do I want Rats in this game?", "When do I gain my first Rats?" and, "How many Rats do I want in my deck at any given point?" I think you'll almost never want to open with Rats, since they will quickly destroy the value of your deck. You need to build up your economy a bit to get some solid $5 cards, then buy a Rats and a bunch of trash-for-benefit cards on the same shuffle. That's my best guess.

Pillage: This seems like a decent buy in the very early or late game, and not so much in between. In the very early game, the chance that you'll snipe the only good card in someone's hand is high and the Spoils can help kick-start your deck to quickly reach Gold and $5 cards. In the late game, your opponents' Victory cards will again make it more likely that Pillage can completely ruin their hand, and Spoils is as good as Gold if you're only going to see it once.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 10:55:57 am by LastFootnote »
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2012, 07:54:15 am »
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Oh yes.
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2012, 08:00:46 am »
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1st Preview:

Wow.  Um... wow.  So Graverobber is a cheaper Expand that only applies to Actions, but lets you get those Actions back later.  I'm gonna go ahead and say this is a pretty good card (better than Expand, at any rate, except when turning Provinces into Colonies, etc).  Poorhouse?  WTF?  Donald X is breaking all of his own rules with this expansion.  Getting things from the Trash?  Cards that cost $1?  I'm guessing Poorhouse/Chapel is going to be AWESOME.  Sage is going to reward alt VP strategies - particularly Vineyard and VP tokens.  I mean, Vineyard already emphasizes Action-heavy decks - Sage is just going to reward that emphasis.  Of course, Sages will ignore your Poorhouses (like the intellectual elite should, aha, THEME), but seems like a pretty solid card.

Also, is it just me, or do these all look like fan cards?  The art looks like the stuff people have ripped for the Variants sub-forum.

2nd Preview:

I'M SAYING WOW AGAIN.  I really like Feodum - I can definitely see this combo-ing with Graverobber - find a way to trash Feodum for the Silvers, then pick it right back up with Graverobber.  Cultist seems delightfully overpowered, but maybe Ruins aren't quite as bad as Curses, maybe?  I doubt it.  I'm not sure how I feel about the "Looter" subtype.  Also, Grujah must feel at least slightly vindicated - you don't ruin other people's victory cards, but there are different types of Ruins.  Like Ruined Market...  not much to say here, other than... I don't want that in my deck.  Unless I'm playing a PH or CH engine without +Buy.

3rd Preview:

Very interesting...  me likey Squire.  Well, I like Steward, so that's not really a surprise, and what other card will give you +2 Buys?  Wacky!  As for Hermit, I'm glad we finally have the "trash from your discard" card that we all wanted since we played Ascension.  And I just can't help laughing when I say "Madman."  I am very interested in trying these cards out, though I am still curious as to what Shelters are.

4th Preview:

I'm trying to figure out how Rats can work to your advantage... obviously, they're just cantrip trashers that gain themselves.  Once your deck is all squeaky clean (except for your Rats), you'll have to find some way of getting rid of them, which will probably involve not playing them.  If your hand is all Rats, you're basically screwed, since any card you draw will be trashed by the Rats (here's where a Cultist would come in handy), and each use will just give you ANOTHER Rats.  Get me an exterminator.  Pillage the Village!  Here's another rule broken, though I'm very curious about how else one might acquire Spoils.

5th Preview

Um?  I can't say I see the point of ever putting these in my starting deck instead of Estates, except maybe Necropolis.  This seems... silly.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 09:06:25 am by werothegreat »
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2012, 08:08:01 am »
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Graverobber: Seems pretty powerful on first glance, since both options are very good. On second glance, if there aren't any good cards to gain from the trash, you have to trash an Action card, and maybe you don't want to do that. Also, this is an interesting card to hit with Golem, possibly forcing you to gain a card from the trash you don't want (maybe only Silver is there?). Finally, this would combo greatly with Border Village.

Poor House: One or two of this card in a trash-your-Treasures-engine will be super powerful. Other than that, it doesn't seem very useful, and as pointed out by others makes Upgrade and Remake very different. On the other hand, I could see it being useful with Develop possibly? Also, having a cost $1 card makes it much easier to run out this pile quickly if you have the buys. Mint + Poor House will be an interesting opening.

Sage: This herb is simple but interesting. Doesn't seem like it would be useful at all for BM, but functions similarly to Farming Village for an engine. I think the skipping Coppers makes the drawing part more useful, but only +1 Action makes it less powerful than Farming Village. With the right $4 (Sea Hag, Young Witch, Monument?, Remake?, JoaT?), this will be a power opener.


Feodum: Feodum won't be as rushable or single-minded as Gardens, Vineyards, Silk Roads, or Duke strategies. It will be more like Fairgrounds, as a card that complements Province decks well, especially if you want to be a bit Silver-heavy. The Trader combo is obvious, and other Silver gainers like Trading post will help. Feodum and Sage hate each other, since Sage hits both Feodums and Silvers. The combo with Graverobber isn't as good as I first imagined, since Graverobber can only trash Actions.

Cultist: In some ways, this is very similar to Witch, which makes it obvious that giving Ruins isn't as strong as giving Curses (as you would guess). Being able to chain Cultists without actions reminds me a bit of everyone's favorite Hidden Village. I expect this to be a strong attack, but not in the top 10 cost $5 cards. And usually, if you want one, you want many to take advantage of their chaining. If there are many cards like this that do things when trashed, Graverobber will definitely get more powerful. I'm guessing these will be much harder to chain than it seems, since often your deck will often already have some Ruinses taking up space, and +2 Cards isn't that much.

Ruined Market: Love it! I really like how Ruins will expand the design space. It seems that Ruins will usually hurt less than Curses, but not always. And I love the idea of not knowing what the next Ruins card will be.


Squire: This card is going to be very strong in a surprising number of situations, and solid even not in those situations. Gardens obviously loves this card, and it will function fine as a Village without any others. The on-trash clause is really interesting, but requires both a trasher and an Attack in the kingdom. If there are good trashers and Attacks, this card will be boss.

Hermit and Madman: These are complex cards that will take a long time to assess their strength. If someone Graverobs a Hermit, it would be possible to not be able to get a Madman from a Hermit if they are all out. This will unlikely ever come up in practice unless there are tons of players. Otherwise, this card definitely depends on the cards that cost $3 or less in the Kingdom.


Rats: I was expecting a cantrip trasher in DA, and here it is! This is only the second cantrip trasher besides Upgrade. I think the $4 cost is perfect for this card. It could probably cot $2 or $3 without being overpowered, since you probably don't want too many of them. But, having it cost $4 makes it a more worthwhile trash-for-benefit. Because of this, Rats will definitely be most powerful with trash-for-benefits like Graverobber, Remodel types, Bishop, and Apprentice. Well, and Upgrade, which will be super-strong since it allows you to get a $5 from your Rats, and you get to draw an extra card while having an action leftover. Actually, this part will make it great with Apprentice too!

Pillage: I predicted a one-shot attack from DA, but was expecting it to be a curser. I slightly worry that choosing what card to have others discard will cause some AP. But, I think the card is relatively balanced, and will be a good $5 attack card.

Spols:: Like it! One shot Gold! Not much else to say here.


Necropolis: I predicted that this card would be a Ruins, so that's not going to happen! I like the idea of being able to start with a Village though. Definitely doesn't help BM.

Overgrown Estate: This doesn't help much besides cards that like Victory cards. I'm unsure about how strong the on-trash +1 Card effect is for this and Rats, but I'm guessing pretty weak, since it will often be without any actions left. Though I guess Necropolis helps with that.

Hovel: Definitely seems like the weakest of the Shelters. The only thing it enables is being able to trash it, but only when you're replacing it with another Victory card. Plus, the Victory card has to be bought, not gained! I expect many 5/2 openings will buy an Estate if there aren't any $2 kingdom cards to get rid of this card.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 10:08:02 pm by Schneau »
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2012, 08:09:30 am »
+2


Poorhouse: Looks like you really need an elite engine to pull it off well, even village + secret chamber + poor house doesn't hit province.  Going to mess up upgrades, remakes.

Sage: Probably the type of thing you buy instead of silver according to theories "beyond silver".

Graverobber: I think the utility of this card is going to vary wildly based on whats on the table.  Presumably there will be more trashing going on with other dark ages cards, so perhaps this is more useful than you'd expect.  If played without any future cards - i suspect this is near mine in power level.  Too slow under normal circumstances.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 09:32:20 am by Captain_Frisk »
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2012, 08:17:03 am »
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I shall post my thoughts this weekend now that almost the entire expansion is released/leaked. Lots of craziness to come.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 06:09:46 pm by Galzria »
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2012, 08:17:14 am »
+1

This looks like a good game; I'm up for it.

Poorhouse: Looks great in Treasureless decks and other decks that can discard Treasure cards easily (eg, decks with Secret Chamber and the like). Not so hot in money decks, but why would you be buying $1 cards in a money deck?

Sage: Could be handy for engines in the absence of trashing. You don't need to trash your Estates, Coppers and Curses if you can just Sage past them. Combos quite nicely with Highway, especially with Tunnel in the mix.

Graverobber: Oooooh. I can't tell how good this card is by looking at it, but it looks fun. Which might be better than good.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 09:13:58 am by Jack Rudd »
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2012, 08:18:54 am »
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I'll do it. Though, hey, it'll be much the same as what I will put in t'other thread, methinks

Day 1 initial thoughts: poor house, first off, looks pretty terrible. If you're militia'd, it's a terminal silver. And it's rare you'll only have one card left after this. And terminal! (Well it has to be). I guess it sorts combos with FV, Festival, hamlet. Interesting to have a card you genuinely don't want cards in hand for. Of course, does stuff with upgrade effects, and very possible to pile out. Edit: so for some reason I saw this saying cards rather than treasure. Which makes this a lot better - good-ish in high thrashing engines, though prologue still not GREAT. And usually not too good, because most often you still want at least a few gold and silver.
Graverobber looks much better. Cheap expand seems primary effect, even only working on actions. And really good graverobbing with other TFB like apprentice and remodel. Self combos, but that doesn't seem so so strong except with other trashing, or decently good in engines.
Sage, now this I like. Compares to scheme, or the second half of HP sort of. A tutor, and we can use more of those. Bad, I think, in terminal draw money, but in most other decks will quickly outstrip silver, for the cycling. Maybe even an opener, with silver (or terminal silver) in an engine. Maaybe. Not so hot with trashing (which it often will take the place of sort of), doesn't like greening. But loves TR and KC.  And ought to be good with non-terminal-draw money decks. Maybe interesting with highway.

Day 2 first thoughts: Feodum seems... sadly weak. I mean, usually it is worth 1, if you work it much, it's not hard to get it to 2, you might get it to 3 sometimes, 4 with jack, I guess more with trader. But most often it is just going to be like, 2. Unless you trash some, and that is a good way to get some silvers running, but, especially if you can TFB the thing. Heck, especially if you trader the thing, that's 7 silvers. But then, there aren't so many feodums left, unless you graverobber them, or something. So it seems like it will be hard to really make a feodum-based strategy, and... I guess that's ok. I mean, I look at alternate VP and I'm like, wooooo, let's make a strategy around this, and that doesn't seem possible here (usually - I mean, again, Jack likes it a good bit, bureaucrat is cool with it, and trader loves it, but except trader, it's always supplementary), but just as a bit of a boost, that is ok.
Gotta go to Ruined Market next. So ok, question is, are these out all the time, or only with looters? Because you might actually buy the things sometimes - fairgrounds, as a pile to run out instead of curses (hi, goons, hi infinite pin, etc.), if you really really desperately need say, +buy. The +action one (I assume we get a coin one, an action one, and a card one) is clearly the worst - I mean, okaaaaaaay, you didn't have to play the thing anyway, it does NOTHING for you unless you throne or King it (ok, ok, peddler, conspirator, etc.). +buy might be most useful, even though it is also super super weak. +1 card lets you give an action to not have so much clog, and that seems weak too, but not SO terrible. Terminal coppers are ick, but hey, sometimes you might use it, in a big pinch. Definitely a lot better than curses, still definitely quite painful to have. Don't know about the random thing. And I'm curious as to what the 5th ruins is. And uh, non-homogenous supply pile... interesting.
Okay, this leaves Cultist. Now, why is there the separate looter type, I don't understand. I guess maybe there is a reaction or something. The card itself compares to witch, right? Now, which has to be like one of the top 10 cards in the game, and this... might be better. It actually lets you try to build an engine, and it mitigates collision.... a lot. You can use that free play ability even in engines, so that is very good, man. If you can get it, it is suddenly a smithy with a double attack, instead of a moat with a weak one. And it totally nullifies your collision issue, man can I say how big that is? You can load up on these big time, big time big time, if terminal draw collision is good instead of bad. How many of these do you want before gold? You probably ALWAYS prefer them to silver, which is something you can't say for witch. It's a little hard to gauge how much weaker the attack is, but I'm guessing it's still pretty strong. Oh, and you can trash the thing, and it's always for benefit. So maybe you even chapel this occasionally, but most often it just makes TFB a lot better.
Graverobber looks much more combo-ful now, with these trash and the trashed card gets you a benefit cards, but you know, I am wondering how much variance some of this stuff will add... probably not so much, but it looks like we are swinging even more to engines. And that's not necessarily bad. BM games get shoved to 10% or something? Well, I guess we should see the rest of the set.

Day 3 initial thoughts: Holy Crap! Cultist looked good - these cards look amazing! (mind you, not necessarily better than cultist).

Okay, squire first. Well, Donald, I did NOT know that you were necessarily gonna do the other half of steward, but squire is just such a great name, I had a feeling it would be used. And what a card this is! I venture to guess that it might well dethrone hamlet even, as power level of a 2 card. I had thought 2 actions, $1 was reasonably a 2 card by itself - half a fishing village. And you know, that missing card does more to a village than people think. BUT. This can also give you buys (the first +2 buy card, sweet!), which don't look now, but hello three-pile endings, but mostly those can be good in the engine you are probably trying to build off of this village. And to boot, it is quite useful in alternate VP games, too; okay, it's a terminal copper, but most likely you only get one, terminal isn't so bad, and it silver floods you. And if you get collision, okay, it's not strictly terminal, you can always play it as at least a copper copper. So that helps out too. And then the on-trash effect. Well you know, I don't know how often that comes up, but uh, well I guess in engines. Chapel-this might actually be a really nice 2/2 opening. And it can get ANY attack. So grab a goons, or a witch, or a mountebank, or a cultist, or as he says, a familiar. You guys realize that familiar is effectively the most expensive attack, right? So, sort of interesting in that you can get a potion-coster, without actually needing a potion. Anyway, the main point is, it is hard to think of too many decks that really don't want this card, though obviously it is not SO often hey #1 on the hit parade. A very nice utility, almost always useful.

Okay, next we look at Hermit. So, first of all, the "main" effect, which I am guessing will really be secondary. Okay, it is terminal. That is sort of a bummer. But on the other hand, it is the first card to trash something other than from hand or play, right? Getting to look through the discard pile makes it much more effective at pinpointing those estates - and curses and ruins! - that can sometimes be so elusive. Like, before, trashing to try to counter a curse onslaught was nearly always a losing proposition, except in some exceptional cases (even lots of chapel decks, if you couldn't build a really strong draw engine with plenty of actions). But this card, it can nail them very effectively, even with a bloated deck. Okay, one at a time, and you can't get coppers. But wait, there's more. Gaining a card up to 3, well that is good. The first thing that actually comes to my mind with this card is, this looks a lot like JoaT. It has the silver gain, it has the estate trashing. So it doesn't have the filtering, but man, I don't think that's so huge, and it doesn't have the card draw, which hurts more. It does let you get cards other than silver (so maybe estates at the end, eh?), and it is more effective in trashing your estates/curses/whatever for you. But you know, even without the draw, I still bet this is not bad for just a BM+this rush strategy - maybe 15-16 turns? And probably if you add cards to it, which you usually can, pretty good still. Probably less formulaic to go double hermit than double jack, and it probably plays better with other cards. Oh and hey, you can gain other hermits with this thing at least, too, so that is sorta big. Indeed, it's a gimped workshop plus, hey that ain't so bad. And the trashing is probably a much bigger deal with all these DA cards - like, hitting your feodum or cultist with this, especially from the discard pile, might be really important at some point. And that might make this combo a little with like inn, too. But okay, the thing that probably really pushes this over the top (and close to elite level 3 status - well, behind amb and masq and FV and probably like steward and swindler... sitting around #6... no shoot, it might be better than that, too), is that it can gain you a madman. Now, I don't know how best to strategically time doing that, because well, buying stuff tends to be important. And you have to discard this thing FROM PLAY. So you are giving up a buy for that madman, and later on, well that might hurt. But anyway, you do get to GAIN stuff, so that mitigate a lot, probably. Well, okay, this thing probably makes hermit really REALLY powerful, but to talk about why, we need to go over....

Madman. This is now the hardest card to get? No, it really isn't. You can have two of them by your second reshuffle an awful lot of the time, I am sure. And doing that, you can draw your deck - and hey, that is nice. But then you lose them, which sorta sucks. So the interesting thing is, it is a village, right, but that draws you a billion cards. Ok. Well, so, it can actually be worse than regular vanilla village, how about that. But most of the time, obviously, it won't be. But when do you want this? I think pretty much for engines, right? But engines, well, you can often draw your deck anyway, this isn't SO hot (though obviously hey, you will take the extra actions and a large chunk of your card draw is off your shoulders). Typically, this thing draws you at least 4 cards with the 2 actions, up to 8 or something, and well that is pretty big. There is a LOT of stuff you can do with that many cards. And it gives you actions too. So I guess this is probably good in engines where you could use a little extra card draw, or where you can use card drawing actions for some other purpose (i.e., king something other than your smithy now, or of course steward). But I bet it's also pretty good in Big Money and a couple terminals. No really, that 8 card hand will be a province. It's even better if you can get some kind of +buy without hurting that BM+X too much. Like, margrave or something, though an opposing margrave hurts you a lot. You only get to use this once, so you want to make it count, but I am guessing it is really strong anyway. Bridge loves this thing, don't you know. Probably the best thing for this, is to set up one big mega-turn, a la your classic bridge, or HoP. Anyhow, obviously exceptional, probably going to be a bit overrated, because there's a decent cost to getting it, and you only get to use it once, but I would still guess it is most always going to be worth it at some point.

Day 4:
Rats: Okay, uh, wow. We are really breaking all those design rules, huh? Anyway, this card is... well, it seems very scary to get. It is just like upgrade, but one cheaper in the most important way, the 4-5 split, and you can't gain cards off of them, but... oh my, that is a huge drawback. You can't trash other rats, which is something you do all the time with upgrade (upgrade all your starting cards, then the upgrades start turning each other into things like gold), and you are going to gain SO MANY. I guess they can't be worse than confusions, right, because you don't actually have to play them. But without some way of trashing them, hopefully for benefit, it doesn't look to me like you will want them that often, I guess maybe unless the kingdom is chock full of these new trash-me-for-a-benefit cards, but man, they gain themselves like the plague, and that just looks... so... bad. But, they're Donald's favorite card? They must be worth SOMETHING, eh? Oh yeah, and haven't I seen a card that gives you copies of itself, CALLED RATS, in the fan design section....
Pillage: Now, huh. I am going to guess that nailing the one card is typically better than the attack of a militia. I mean, worst 4 out of 5 is typically worse than best 3 out of 5, am I right? It's pretty devastating to engines, because it can nail that one village they need, or their one draw card, or basically whatever it is that holds that hand together to get it started, a good chunk of the time anyway, but also really good against BM - very hard to do a lot if your one gold or draw card gets poached from your hand. I guess Pillaged. But it's a one-shot. Heh, looks like there's a really nasty combo if you can play multiples (a la KC or TR) after giving them a Council Room effect. This will hurt them in just the same way that extra opponents' margraves can help you. But ok, only a one-shot, and that seems a little weak I guess, so we need to look at the benefit to you, right? Two spoils... hm
Spoils: 15 seems like a weird number. I guess it's like, how many fit in the box? Anyway, a one-shot gold. That's good, I guess. One shot seems like, well, it would be nicer to have it more, you usually really use that effect 2-3 times over the course of a game at least. Hard to talk about this on its own though, and we don't know the other cards that gain it. But in the context of pillage, well, that makes pillage, I would guess, an ok but not great card. It is very fleeting, and sort of slow. Hey, they give you a good reason not to over-spend huh? But I am guessing this, as a 2-card set, is decently good, but not great. But I don't have a super-great feel for it.

Day 5:
Well, ok, shelters seem not so much more to talk about. Necropolis is the star, because well, that card is not good, but it can actually be fairly useful, especially for an engine. Overgrown estate, what do I say, the bonus is not so so great, because usually you are trashing the thing early, and with enough other cards, how much does that actually get you? I dunno, will be somewhat useful. Hovel, well again, this is almost worse than estate, though I guess not quite so bad? The first province you get, if you are lucky enough to get this in your hand at the time, doesn't clog you any extra. But I mean, how often are you going to actually buy a victory card to get rid of this? It's just some extra VP, and early on, you don't care. Maybe you duchy a touch faster on exactly 5 with this in hand in a big money game. That's about all I can think of. Oh, I guess maybe island/great hall/harem/nobles. Eh......... not so exciting. At least they aren't protecting you from looters or something. And necropolis is actually sort of interesting. The 1-cost of these things makes them quite un-fun to remake... usually. But these+remake+FG, anyone? Even this is probably not so so great. Well, whateva.




Full List:
Altar: Looks.... pretty weak, actually. Gaining up to 5 is nice, but this is a 6-cost card, and usually it's going to be pretty slow to get stuff this way. The trashing a card will be really nice sometimes, but I bet it's a pain more often than you might guess, especially as this is 6-cost, and it's one-at-a-time. Not TERRIBLE, but not very good.
Armory: Topdeck workshop is worse for VP rushes but good for building engines. I think I will like this card, and that though it's decently, weak, it'll be ok.
Band of Misfits: Apart from all the rules issues this creates... obviously this is very dependant on the board, but I am guessing this largely just gets bought for some nice flexibility on boards where most of your key cards are sub-5. It's really good in engines, obviously. But it makes every card important. Probably really really good in lieu of the early-trasher-which-will-eventually-be-a-dead-card, so mostly chapel.
Bandit Camp: Not so so great for engines maybe, at least where this is the only village. But I guess it is good for like big money with some terminals, particularly if they're non-draw. And not bad for engines which could use a little extra cash infusion.
Beggars: Alt VP loves this. Other stuff.... man, that is a lot of coppers to gain for your cheap terminal gold. I guess it's pretty good against cursers, too. But pretty bad overall.
Catacombs: This is a good bit better for smithy for BM, but costing one more is a big deal. This is WAY better than smithy for engines. On the other hand, no benefit other than really great card draw, and it is probably only medium to pretty strong on the power scale.
Count: I bet this one is weak. Its effect is strictly better than Mandarin, but Mandarin's effect is really weak, and the first set of options just... I don't know, doesn't seem all that great. Obviously this is mega-good with SR or Duke.
Counterfeit: I just love this card on so many levels. It is really great for engines (hey, how does this work with spoils?), but it is also pretty good for big money, and even big money draw. I am going to go ahead and guess this is in the 10-15 range of 5-costs, well ahead of venture.
Death Cart: Wow! That looks like a lot of cash, but I am guessing unless you have the other looters, this is actually going to be fairly weak. I mean, that is a lot of ruins baggage to grab, and I know this trashes them, and I know you can go ahead and sac this at the opportune moment, and I know that you only need 3 other coin to make a province with these, but if you go too early, you are going to strangle yourself. I guess you can pick these up mid-late fairly safely, maybe in a big money deck that is starting to choke itself soon. I guess not terrible, but generally not that good.
Forager: A non-terminal trasher will have lots of nifty interactions in this set (maybe counterfeit most notably), but on the other hand this is normally going to be an action, buy, and one money... hmm, not so bad in an engine actually. Probably fairly usable in engines, terrible for big money.
Fortress: Usually just a village, great defense against any kind of trash attacks, great with trash for benefit.
Hunting Grounds: Well, you can trash this if you want to pile out estates, and it's... maybe a defense against trashing attacks? Or maybe not. The cards, well that is a lot of cards, 50% better than smithy, but I am guessing not so much better for big money. I mean obviously better to have, but it costs 6, and BM usually wants gold there, and it's going to miss the reshuffle a lot. However, it ought to be quite good for a village-based engine, letting you draw the deck fast, and you don't need lots of gold anyway there, most of the time.
Ironmonger: I expect this to be really really close to the top of the $4 cards. The village is the weakest aspect by far; discarding a copper on a peddler is really good for 4, discarding a victory and getting a lab is AMAZING for 4, peddler and keeping a good treasure is still pretty darn good for 4, and well, when you village.... it's still village with a little bit of a filter you don't use much. But wow, I'd say this might even be better than tournament.
Marauder: Simple. Seems... good. I mean, not great, but good. Compare to sea hag, this doesn't give curses, only ruins, and they're not top-decked, so that is a LOT worse, but on the other hand it keeps giving you spoils, so that is nice. I'm gonna guess this is a tier 2 or maybe tier 3 4-cost card.
Urchin: Seems tough to get to Mercenaries from this. The attack itself, well, it's a cantrip, so good, doesn't stack, so less good, but not too shabby in an engine. DREADFUL in big money. Well, how good is opening double this to try to get one really early on? Bit under 50-50 on the first shuffle, you can get more... doesn't seem too too unreasonable, but I bet people think it is far more broken than it in fact will be, because....
Mercenary: This card looks really strong. 2 cards and 2 cash is really really good, and you get a militia attack to boot, that is a better deal than followers. But it's really hard to get this, especially very early, and... trashing 2 cards is good early I guess, but after very long, especially with how hard this card is to get, that is going to start being a pretty decent penalty. I don't actually think rushing this will be that great that often, because in the meantime you have very little economy, and it is hard to get that up and running and sustained.
Junk Dealer: A cross between peddler and upgrade. Usually better than upgrade, if there's not some good card with a trash bonus, usually... worse? than market? I would guess this is middling for a 5.
Market Square: Another defense to trashing attacks, which can work with your own trashers of course, to get some pretty nice benefits. Also your cantrip buy we thought we'd never get because of Worker's Village, which is... okay but not great, because really you'd need an engine. Though it works in an engine, so hey, there is that. Probably pretty weak most of the time.
Mystic: Action-form silver makes its appearance, with the wishing well ability. Probably about as good as wishing well, I bet this is a pretty weak 5.
Procession: Very hard to tell how good this will be. Probably decently good on boards where there is that nice chain of actions at every cost, but usually weaker than throne room, I'd guess. Also good with benefit-when-trashed cards, I guess.
Rebuild: This is very similar to the idea that I had for the terminal silver design contest. I expect that this is pretty good actually. Really good in non-terminal-draw big money. This is an anti-engine card, in that it shortens the game and attacks the engine's ability to get to 50% of the VP.
Rogue: So happy Graverobber isn't the only card with this mechanic. This looks really strong, despite your opponent being able to play games with you like BUY SCOUT!
Scavenger: So the improved chancellor, the set after we got the improved thief? I expect this is just going to be on the weak end of things, rather than terrible like chancellor. Combos SO WELL with Stash, otherwise sorta nice for engines, but really, you usually have something better I think; topdecking just seems overrated. Well, actually this is probably good-ish with all the $5+ treasures. Still pretty weak overall.
Vagrant: The card scout should have been. This smokes it in... basically every way? And is still probably not great, though as a $2 it will get a fair amount of use. Generally more useful than pearl diver, I bet, but not TONS moreso.
Survivors: This may be the strongest ruins, but it's still weak.
Knights: Well, I guess this is sorta saboteur as it should have been. Probably generally fairly weak. The money would ought to be decently good, also the cantrip one, the 4-cost one, maybe the victory one, but all in all, fairly weak but not TOO weak.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 05:35:33 pm by WanderingWinder »
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jimjam

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2012, 08:49:26 am »
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Graverobber: Pretty sick with KC, I think. Seems kind of annoying if both players are fighting over good trash items. Seems kinda overpowered, compared to Expand, since Expand only works with a good engine anyways.

Poor House: Obviously Vault, Secret Chamber, Black Market work well. Might work with gardens (the lack of plus buy hurts). Duke/Duchy might also be good, especially with say Fishing Village or Lighthouse.

Sage: Too bad it doesn't cycle tunnel. But it seems like it could get your deck running pretty fast. Actually, it seems like it may make games swingy from shuffle luck.

Counting House+Sage+Stash should be great.


I can't think of anything not obvious about day 2.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 04:16:12 pm by jimjam »
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Michaelf7777777

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2012, 08:55:54 am »
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In

- - - - - - - - - - -

Graverobber - Seems particularly good in games with swindler/ saboteur/ salvager/ apprentice and other cards where there are incentives to thrash good cards. It even combos with itself although this might be a bit difficult to set up

Poor House - Shines in treasureless decks but otherwise looks good for a gardens/ silk road strategy as it almost guarantees having at least $4 to spend come the buy phase

Sage - Seems very powerful as a way to spam the sane attack once every turn (cursers and ghost ships probably being the most lethal) by being able to just buy one copy of the attack and spamming Sage. On second thoughts unless there are pleanty of cheap piles costing two or less (including at least one + buy) but then where would your VP's come from if it was a ghost ship. So all in all a Great Hall without the VP but the benefit of the additional card being something you actually want.

- - - - - - - - -

Feodum - VP from treasure interesting. Looks to combo nicely with trader. Also provides interesting strategy space around when you should trash a feodum to power up your other feodum attacks.

Cultist - A witch which deals out better but still pretty bad cards to the other players but can havbe multiples played without village help

Ruined Market - While better than a curse, still pretty bad. I assume the other ruins are +1 coin, +1 action, +1 card and either trash a card or +1 VP

- - - - - - - - - -

Squire - Looks like a this turn fishing village most of the time with other options. Appears to be rather good for a two cost card

Hermit - Looks to be a good card only in circumstances where you get benefits from the thrashing of other cards as is the case with feodum and cultist

Madman - One time super council room with the actions of a village. Not sure why the "if you do" is included in the wording, because returning it to the pile looks mandatory to me

- - - - - - - - - -

Rats - Appear more troublesome to me than the problem of coppers and estates unless there is another thrasher on the board

Pillage/ Spoils - $5 for a one shot effect which gives two one shot golds. Seems a little weak to me (although comparable with Contraband and Cache in strength)

- - - - - - - - - -

Necropolis - Seems better to me than an estate in most circumstances (Baron, Trash for benefit and potentially Ambassador being the exceptions. The plus two actions could prove useful for engines. Also meansa that there will in all probability be no +2 Actions ruin

Overgrown Estate - Trash a bad card from your hand replace it with a better one. Better than estate on any board with trashing where the cdircumstances mentioned above do not apply.

Hovel - Doesn't seem that good as it is a dead card and you usually do not want to be buying victory cards to the mid to late game by which point a) it is going to be difficult to line thsi up with a VP buy particularly in the midgame with this taking up a valuable card slot and b) likely not making that much difference as there will not be that many cyclesd of your deck to go. Would prefer estate to this under most circumstances.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 09:22:35 am by Michaelf7777777 »
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shraeye

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2012, 09:00:43 am »
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Graverobber: A really cool sounding card that only is good in multiples with extra actions, and is only great with expensive +2 Action cards.  Will be loved by newbies, avoided by intermediates, and used only sparingly by experts.  An expand with option to gain a card from the trash instead, AND it only costs 5?!? Yes please! But wait just a minute, the expand only works with actions.  And with Graverobber on the board, other people will have the means to resurrect many of the actions that you 'Expand'.  Maybe this will be stronger if it's in the Black Market deck and you have the only one, but then you also need a trasher card that will be used on desirable cards from 3-6.  When I think about trashes I've seen after playing (IRL only do I notice the trash, since I am usually the one to sort it) there aren't normally good cards there unless apprentice is on the board, or there were a few late-game remodels of gold to province.  If someone is turning gold to provinces, the game is too close to ending for me to bother nabbing the gold from the trash.  And if there's apprentice on the board, I'd probably buy it over Graverobber with every 5 I have.  So this looks terrible, but what if I have a lot of this terrible card?  With plenty of plus actions, I can use this to gain something really expensive for free.  Play Graverobber to turn my Bazaar into a Province, then play a Graverobber to get the Bazaar back before my opponent has a chance to grab it.  This works great with City, Bazaar, Festival, Inn, Nobles (any expensive card that gives +2 actions).  Especially Nobles, since they give enough +cards that you will have more than one Graverobber.  Actually, having 2 Graverobbers and a +2 actions in hand is asking a lot without plenty of +cards, and if you're trying to buy +cards, +actions, and multiple Graverobbers, that seems like a tough combo to pull off.

Poor House: Very happy in moneyless engine decks; possible counter to economy wrecking attacks and loooves Black Market.  But there's a reason it costs $1, in most decks this will be a terminal silver (or worse) with no other benefit.  Damnation, a card that costs 1.  Well we expected it, but it won't make Copper Remakers happy.  Or maybe it will, if they have the plus actions to back it up.  This card looks to be unbelievably great in moneyless engine decks.  Here is a great counter to Pirate Ship, and for multiplayer games where heavy Theif-ing can also wreck your economy.  The good news is that those attacks are especially tough with villages or TR/KC and these are also cards that will make your Poor Houses shine.  If I have no money, +$4 is great, but +$12 is even better (now where can I find some +Buys?).  This card will also make Gardens/Silk Road rush strategies happier  Any given hand will probably have some copper/silver, but will likely have more VP cards.  This will be a way to keep your economy up without having to spend $3 for a silver instead of buying an Estate that turn.  As long has you have the +Buys, you just buy a Poor House every time you hold an odd amount of money.  Also, Black Market is an obvious way to get Treasure out of your hand before your action phase is done, so that's one card it works well with.

Sage: Bad card that might help to bring together an engine when facing bad shuffle luck, but mostly wants to be avoided when you're busy buying good cards Look at that dumb man writing in his dumb books.  Doesn't he realize that he's probably just going to give me a silver?  Maybe if my deck were full of curses, I'd appreciate this cantrip that makes certain your replacement card is good.  But mostly I'd just want to buy more actual good cards.  This can be a good buy with an unfortunate 3 while building an engine; it will help you find your engine parts better, and doesn't clutter things like your 3rd or 4th silver will.  So this is a friend to engine builders that don't have competing parts at $3.  Not a card you'd ever want more than two of, probably not more than one.

Feodum:  A really exciting card that, despite its coolness, will be nearly impossible to make into a viable alt-VP strategy compared to other card-counting victory cards.  Cool! I remember all those times I had crazy bad shuffle luck and kept hitting $4 for the first 6 turns?  Well now I want all those silvers, so take that vaguely remembered opponents.  Actually this card can be pretty awesome.  Even without trashing, this could be ok, and with trashing it is great because you now have a way to gain Silvers quickly.  It comes at the cost of a Feodum, but because of calculus and stuff (optimization problems!!! I always told my students they'd be useful) you want your X Feodum's to be worth X, instead of (X+1) feodums to be worth (X-1), so count your silvers folks.  Actually that rule will only apply to the endgame with very few turns left.  Otherwise, keep the feodums and grab more silvers with +buys. (X+1 worth X are even better).  I'm just excited to crack those Silver piñatas and boost my economy.  This is best used in the early game for extra Silver, or in the endgame for a better option than Duchy (like Farmland).  This won't make a serious alt-VP strategy.  Also, Develop a Feodum into a Silver and a Graverobber, gaining 4 Silvers and the card you need to take Feodum back...

Cultist:  Now here's a card that makes me say wow.  This will be a top-tier $5 card, in the top 10 for sure.  It's a weaker witch AND a weaker lab, and that's what makes this great.  I can imagine boards where giving an opponent a Ruined Market actually helps them, but that's not the only Ruins; no Ruin will be as painful as a Curse, but +1 Card (or +1 action) will be a card I would rather to without.  I'm really hoping for a card that can trash things in play, but even with the Trash bonus just being a gimmick, this card will be one of my new favorites.  It will be good in multiples, but there isn't the gained money like Minion stacks.  Perhaps with enough Silver and card draw Cultist stacks will work; well hello early 3 Silvers from Feodum.

Ruined Market:  Painful card; fun alternative to curses.  I wonder if there's a way to turn ruined things into non-ruined thing.  If I could turn this into a Grand Market, then Ruins will really not be scary.  I hope these are scarier; + Buy is a bad card, but in an engine I may actually like it.  Can't wait to see the other Ruins.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 05:55:50 pm by shraeye »
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sitnaltax

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2012, 09:04:41 am »
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I am down to embarrass myself.

Graverobber: Mediocre with the best support: Bishop, Apprentice, Swindler. There is no combo here with Saboteur, people. Terrible without support. May work OK with something in Dark Ages--like Outpost power level at best--but I would be very surprised to see this as any kind of power card.

Sage: Like Scheme, allows you to play your good cards more. Pretty much comparable to Scheme except that Sage is high risk as an opener--it's great if you draw your good $4 on turn 3 and Sage on turn 4, but terrible if you collide them. Will be powerful for any engine that doesn't expect to draw the entire deck.

Poor House: Benefits from as many as possible of the following: powerful trashing, copper trashing, +Buys, villages. Definitely needs both some kind of trashing and villages. I think the interaction with Upgrade and Remake is overblown, although it will make it somewhat slower to make ultrathin decks with those cards if that's your goal.

Feodum: There's no rush strategy here. It will be dominant with Trader and Jack. Bureaucrat and Explorer may be worth additional looks, especially if you can chain them. The interaction with Governor might be worth worrying about, but Embassy won't stop being worth it.

Cultist: Yes, Witchbratory will usually be a key card when it appears. It doesn't lose as much strength as Witch in the face of good trashing, because hey, bonus when you get rid of it.

Squire: This is good. I'm not sure if it's quite at Hamlet's level, but it's good. A +2A $1 Village for $2 is nothing to sneeze at, and you if you need several to make your engine work you can get all the buys you need. Or you can gain Silver in your BM-ish deck (Feudom waves politely.)

Hermit/Madman: Trash junk and gain Silver? This is an even better counter to cursing than Jack, because you don't even have to match it up with the bad cards. The Madman option will be a megaturn enabler on the caliber of Tactician, if you're willing or able to activate it--gainers and upgraders may help the turn not be a total waste. This will be an important card on many boards.

Rats: Needs alternate trashing. The ideal complement is trash-for-benefit; Apprentice, Remake, and Upgrade come to mind. Even Develop might work if there's a good $5. Doesn't seem like it'll work well with Chapel or Steward. Likely to work well with a lot of Dark Ages cards.

Pillage: You lose a $5 card in your hand, but so do your opponents. Seems fair, probably, especially if you can deny an important combo piece like a village or KC. Given the trading of losses, this will only be good if the Spoils jumpstart you to important $5 and $6 cards, or to a final Province. Otherwise your economy falls behind.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 12:50:59 am by sitnaltax »
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Tonks77

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2012, 09:04:54 am »
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I'm in.
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Lekkit

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2012, 09:15:14 am »
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Updated my post. :D
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andwilk

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2012, 09:16:49 am »
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Here's my thoughts:

Graverobber- going to need lots of actions for this one.  I like the pseudo-Expand ability and will be most useful turning $3 actions into Grand Markets, and $5 actions into Provinces in the late game.

Poor House- not a fan of the $1 cost, but knew it was coming.  It's not the same dynamic as adding $7 cards because Prosperity also added $11-cost Colonies.  As far as the actual card, it's a neat concept and will be good in action based decks with extra actions or as a counter to Pirate Ship.

Sage - will be great to open Sage/Sea Hag or Sage/Young Witch.
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