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[Kuildeous]

As much as I adore Dominion, I have to confess a love for Vladimír Chvátil's games. I own Galaxy Trucker, Dungeon Lords, and Dungeon Petz. I've played 1/3 of a game of Through the Ages, but I like what I saw. I've yet to play Space Alert, but it sounds like it's up my alley.

I love the complexities that are inherent in these games. Sure, Galaxy Trucker seems like a simple ship-building game, but the fact that the board is heavily against you means that you have to take into consideration many factors that threaten to annihilate you. I like Dungeon Lords for the same reason, though DL doesn't even look simple. Still, it's about weathering the threat that is coming your way. In this game, you can actually manipulate the threat so you are sitting pretty. Dungeon Petz has a pretty complex system of caring for your pets, and it's not too uncommon to lose a pet to disease or unhappiness or escape.

I like all of his games that I've experienced so far. Unfortunately, my group isn't into them as much as I am. What's a man to do? Is there a better way to incorporate these games into a gaming group? The tutorials in Dungeon Lords are handy (and necessary IMO). There wasn't a tutorial for Dungeon Pets, but I wish there was. There was frustration during the game in how to care for a pet. I should have just taken a fully grown monster, deal out a bunch of cards, and explain what would be needed to keep the pet alive and happy. With Galaxy Trucker, when I introduce new players, I at least forbid looking at the event cards for everyone. Not only does it put me on somewhat equal footing with everyone else, but it doesn't slow them down when they try to figure out the cards. This is not a place for analysis paralysis. I also never flip the hourglass with new players. I let them flip the hourglass on their own time.

I'd love to get in a demo of Space Alert. I'm hesitant to buy it, since I have three (four if you count GT's expansion) beautiful Chvátil games sitting in my cabinet doing nothing for me.

I think a possible problem is that I'm into the games way more than the rest of my friends. As such, I have a better understanding of what is happening. It's discouraging to face such a steep learning curve and get stomped on (except for Dungeon Lords; I somehow don't do as well in that game as I feel I should). Maybe I should just bring out the game and sit out, choosing only to advise throughout the game.

[Galzria]

Vladimír Chvátil games are consistent A+ quality games. From their production, to gameplay. I own Galaxy Trucker and Space Alert, and have looked closely at Dungeon Lords.

While I don't get a lot of opportunity to play them, I have been nothing but impressed when I do. I hadn't realized at first that both of the ones I owned were by the same designer... until I looked at their boards and noticed they use the same laser/ship artwork

Space Alert is... different. It's hectic. It requires the ability to pay attention to many different things at once... all while having your sight and sound senses overloaded. With a good group, it's an absolute blast. With a group of people who are afraid to make noise... it becomes "follow the leader" (Something Pandemic suffers from. One person takes charge, and everybody else follows). But it contains all the humor you've come to expect from Vladimír Chvátil games. And once you get into the flow of it, it's really something else.

I havn't worked my way up to 100% of the rules yet (it starts slow, and builds up in intensity and excitement) - I've only gone about 80% of the way. I use an Android phone, and there are a few apps that contain all the soundtracks, as well as random generators, so it never goes stale. It can be problematic if you have to keep introducing the game to new people however, as there is a LOT to have to know.

Still, I'm 100% behind them, and recommend both Galaxy Trucker and Space Alert to anybody that loves board games. I'm sure I'd feel the same about Dungeon Lords too.

(Sorry this post is hectic - I'm in a hurry and just throwing my thoughts out there)

Cheers

[Kirian]

Galaxy Trucker is the only game I have ever walked away from without finishing.  After the first round I just stood up, backed away, and said "not for me."

The combination of a timer game, a simultaneous-play game, and a dexterity game was far too much for me.  Add a larger does of luck than Catan and I was out.  I truthfully cannot imagine how to introduce the game to anyone who enjoys strategy games; it is the antithesis of the elegance of Dominion.

[Galzria]

Galaxy Trucker is the only game I have ever walked away from without finishing.  After the first round I just stood up, backed away, and said "not for me."

The combination of a timer game, a simultaneous-play game, and a dexterity game was far too much for me.  Add a larger does of luck than Catan and I was out.  I truthfully cannot imagine how to introduce the game to anyone who enjoys strategy games; it is the antithesis of the elegance of Dominion.

While I agree that there is a chaotic nature to most of his games, I very much disagree with the idea that there is a lack of elegance.

Sure, usually I start people off without the timer... And yes, if I have younger players, or players that have trouble grasping "What's the minimum amount of X that I need", I'll even go so far as to make the flipping of the tiles happen by turns. But the amount of luck is relatively small, especially on the smaller ship designs, and if you have 2-3 players.

Even the events in space are fairly non-random. Sure, there are SOME you don't know (maybe 25%), but the rest you do. Order only really matters with experienced players, who can count/track the deck and know where they want to be and when they can take the flight day hits. But that's more strategy than luck. Tracking events along with what your and your opponents ships can do is vital to success.

Besides, how many other games are there where you CAN NOT lose?

Still, all games are preferenced based. But I still feel this one is very sleek and elegant in design, even through all the madness of full speed play.

-Edit- I should note, that I do have friends and family that find this style of chaotic play rather difficult. They love many other games, but enjoy being able to take their time and think about the why of an action. These games do not lend themselves to that. There is much strategy, but it is all on-the-fly. You need to focus on MANY different things, and make reaction based decisions within seconds of new information arriving. This mode of play can be really tough. I fully respect that there are people who just don't handle that style well. I personally find the rush part of the thrill. It keeps everyone on their toes and thinking. But yes, it can become overwhelming, ESPECIALLY to new players. For the record, Space Alert is no different. You need to think bilaterally (sometimes tri or quad) with 1001 things happening, and new information forcing you to make changes to previous plans within a 5-10 second span. Not for everyone, but I highly encourage everyone to at least try.

[Captain_Frisk]

I think you need to look at each of his games differently... my thoughts on the games of his I've played

Space Alert - Not my favorite, but thats because I generally don't like pure co-op...

Galaxy Trucker - I had fun the first time I played this, but I got ROCKED by the person who had played it before.

Dungeon Lords - One of my favorites.  It doesn't hit the table nearly enough because of how hard it is to teach - and its not exactly fair to play between people who know how to play and those who don't

Dungeon Petz - Only played once, but I liked it.  I think I prefer dungeon lords, with fewer random elements.

Through the Ages - The first game of his that I played that wasn't of the pattern: "Build something - and then see what happens".  This game takes far too long with 4 players, but I like it alot with 2.

Mage Knight - I just opened this, hoping to play it this weekend.

In general, the rules for the his games are very complex - although they mostly make sense once you learn them.  The challenge is that teaching any of the games above usually is a short length game session in itself - so unless you have a core group of gamers who like to play the same game repeatedly, its very hard to get these fine games to the table.

I wish I had an answer on how to play these games more...

[DsnowMan]

I like Vlaada's game, but you have to be ready for a serious investment of time and brain power to learn the games and really get into them

Mage Knight is awesome, if you are willing to devote the time. I was. Solo or multiplayer, it rocks. AWESOME. 

[DG]

These games have a lot of cards, pieces, board spaces, etc that do unique things. This makes them more interesting but increases the set-up time, rule explanations, and learning curve for new players. It also means that if you play these games infrequently your play group will only remember that they forgotten a lot of rules and they might not be tempted to learn them all over again. This is certainly true for Dungeon Pets and Dungeon Lords. Agricola is a more complicated game but once you've played it you'll remember the core mechanic (since they are repeated so much) and you can pick up the card details when they're in front of you next time.

[Kuildeous]

It also means that if you play these games infrequently your play group will only remember that they forgotten a lot of rules and they might not be tempted to learn them all over again.

That's a pretty astute observation. I'll have to take that into account. It probably just exacerbates the problem, since I actually retain rules better than the others, so I don't really have a moment where all I remember is that I forgot a bunch of rules. I need to keep that in mind when suggesting a game.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

.....While I agree that there is a chaotic nature to most of his games, I very much disagree with the idea that there is a lack of elegance...

....-Edit- I should note, that I do have friends and family that find this style of chaotic play rather difficult. They love many other games, but enjoy being able to take their time and think about the why of an action. These games do not lend themselves to that. There is much strategy, but it is all on-the-fly. You need to focus on MANY different things, and make reaction based decisions within seconds of new information arriving. This mode of play can be really tough. I fully respect that there are people who just don't handle that style well. I personally find the rush part of the thrill. It keeps everyone on their toes and thinking. But yes, it can become overwhelming, ESPECIALLY to new players. For the record, Space Alert is no different. You need to think bilaterally (sometimes tri or quad) with 1001 things happening, and new information forcing you to make changes to previous plans within a 5-10 second span. Not for everyone, but I highly encourage everyone to at least try.

Speaking of elegance, +1 for the above paragraph.  It's so densely cogent. In a very short moment, I learned about you, your gaming family, your approach to the world, that Vladimir Chvatil games are likely to intrigue me, that I need to look out for demos of any of these titles, and how to approach those first few games, in order to maximize the fun and the learning.

But you rascal, the part that reads "and new information forcing you to make changes to previous plans within a 5-10 second span" makes me (yet again) yearn for a game version of real-time air traffic control. 

Edit:  Corrected typo in final graph.

[Kirian]

But you rascal, the part the reads "and new information forcing you to make changes to previous plans within a 5-10 second span" makes me (yet again) yearn for a game version of real-time air traffic control.

I believe I've played at least two simple ones on Android, one in Flash on Kongregate, and I'm sure there must be some for iOS.

[Captain_Frisk]

But you rascal, the part the reads "and new information forcing you to make changes to previous plans within a 5-10 second span" makes me (yet again) yearn for a game version of real-time air traffic control.

To be clear the "change within 5-10 seconds" really only applies to Galaxy Trucker and Space alert.  None of the others that I've played have this requirement.  Dungeon Lords | Petz in particular are very careful to give you almost all of the critical information you need well in advance.

[theory]

But you rascal, the part the reads "and new information forcing you to make changes to previous plans within a 5-10 second span" makes me (yet again) yearn for a game version of real-time air traffic control.

I believe I've played at least two simple ones on Android, one in Flash on Kongregate, and I'm sure there must be some for iOS.

Airport Mania was a lot of fun.  I don't think it'd be too difficult to translate into a board game.  Maybe even replace some of the real-time franticness with an auction?

[Kuildeous]

I am resurrecting this conversation because I did finally play a friend's copy of Space Alert last weekend. I'm sure my friend can appreciate this thread.

I enjoyed it a lot. I describe Space Alert as a mash-up between Galaxy Trucker and Robo Rally—two games I love a lot. The other players in the group weren't so thrilled. Our first mission was an utter failure, but that's to be expected. You can explain how the cards and board elements all you want, but most players won't quite grasp it until they've experienced the pain of a failed mission. We then went to the second mission and failed that one, but we learned from our mistake. We did the second mission again and got a resounding success.

I was all ready to play more missions and actually graduate to the level where we figure out what the C button does. I know the owner of the game was ready too. The others were more interested in pulling out a different game.

That reaction doesn't really inspire me to buy my own copy of Space Alert. At least I know someone who owns a copy. *grin*

Now I think the only game I haven't tried is Mage Knight. I almost bought a copy blind at CoolStuffInc's booth at GenCon, but that handy-dandy coupon they handed me for $10 off only applied to online sales. It would have been a great deal to use at GenCon, but I wasn't that eager to add more weight to our luggage.

[Ozle]

Just get two model planes and a kitchen table and make some airplane noises as you woosh them around. No need for fancy boards and rules!

Why in my day all we had was a hoop and a stick....

[Galzria]

Just get two model planes and a kitchen table and make some airplane noises as you woosh them around. No need for fancy boards and rules!

Why in my day all we had was a hoop and a stick....

You had a HOOP?!?!!? /jealous

[ftl]

I am resurrecting this conversation because I did finally play a friend's copy of Space Alert last weekend. I'm sure my friend can appreciate this thread.

I enjoyed it a lot. I describe Space Alert as a mash-up between Galaxy Trucker and Robo Rally—two games I love a lot. The other players in the group weren't so thrilled. Our first mission was an utter failure, but that's to be expected. You can explain how the cards and board elements all you want, but most players won't quite grasp it until they've experienced the pain of a failed mission. We then went to the second mission and failed that one, but we learned from our mistake. We did the second mission again and got a resounding success.

I was all ready to play more missions and actually graduate to the level where we figure out what the C button does. I know the owner of the game was ready too. The others were more interested in pulling out a different game.

That reaction doesn't really inspire me to buy my own copy of Space Alert. At least I know someone who owns a copy. *grin*

Now I think the only game I haven't tried is Mage Knight. I almost bought a copy blind at CoolStuffInc's booth at GenCon, but that handy-dandy coupon they handed me for $10 off only applied to online sales. It would have been a great deal to use at GenCon, but I wasn't that eager to add more weight to our luggage.

Space alert is a lot of fun, and the tutorials work pretty well in introducing you to it. That said, you do need 4 people for it, and you have a regular group so you can all  figure the game out and graduate to playing real missions eventually. And there's not much of a need for more than one person out of those four to have it   (I have it and my group just finished all the tutorial levels, it's been fun, we're going to get to do real missions when we get together next month sometime!)

[ehunt]

The best part about Space Alert is it really doesn't matter (unlike, say, in Pandemic) if there's someone at the table who's smarter than you and can tell you what to do and then that solves the problem because there's no time.

I love Galaxy Trucker, but it's not for everyone. My friends play with a house rule where you don't have to sacrifice a minute in time just to take the 1 chip, so that there's very little time and everyone's ship is terrible.

[Kuildeous]

Okay, so the first time I played Through the Ages on the simple setting, I was like, "Okay, that seems pretty elegant. Not too shabby of a game."

Now that I'm in the play-by-forum full game, I'm ready to go out and buy my own copy. Sadly, I think I'll still suffer from a lack of players, but I think this game may be easier to get people into than Dungeon Lords. You can pretty much see what is happening in Through the Ages. Sure, a lot of what you see boils down to, "Man, I wish I had more actions," but it can be played by the futurists and by those who live in the moment.

There is a guy in my city who organizes math trades. There is talk about one coming up post-Christmas so people can get rid of the presents they aren't thrilled with along with anything else sitting in their closets. I can hope to find the game there.

And hey, there's a new expansion for Galaxy Trucker coming out. You know I have to pick that up.

[Kuildeous]

I just read in another thread that there will be apps for Through the Ages and Galaxy Trucker.

Rather than distract that thread, I had to come here to simply say, "Squee!"

This pleases me greatly.

[AHoppy]

Android or iPhone? I think I read somewhere that they are doing both, but I'm not sure...

[Watno]

both, as well as Windows

[Qvist]

I just read in another thread that there will be apps for Through the Ages and Galaxy Trucker.

Rather than distract that thread, I had to come here to simply say, "Squee!"

This pleases me greatly.

Interesting. Could someone provide me a link? When will this come out?

[Watno]

He's probably refering to this post of mine: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9657.msg308630#msg308630
I have the information first hand from the booth at Essen where they showed their Apps (It's produced by a division of CGE itself). They said they're aiming for a release at the end of this year.
Anyway, I tried the Galxy Trucker app a lirttle bit, and it looked and felt really good.
http://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/22845/gencon-news-part-1-of-4-galaxy-trucker-video-iello (includes video)
http://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/22240/app-news-vlaada-chvatil-talks-about-czech-games-ed

[yed]

I played a prototype of Vlada Chvatil's newest game last month: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/146278/tash-kalar-arena-of-legends
It is really good! I recommend it!

[Kuildeous]

I played a prototype of Vlada Chvatil's newest game last month: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/146278/tash-kalar-arena-of-legends
It is really good! I recommend it!

Nice. Putting that one on my radar.

Though, a 30-minute game? Is that really possible? I thought he could only pull that off by forcing the game to end after a specific time. This should be very interesting.