Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6  All

Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.1: $3 cards  (Read 28211 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2255
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +3603
    • View Profile
The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.1: $3 cards
« on: January 05, 2012, 12:37:16 am »
0

I just wanted to post the next article, but I couldn't because I exceeded the maximum allowed characters (20000). :P I think I have to split my post. But first I answer your posts.

As I said above, an unweighted ranking or using Median wouldn' have changed the order of the $2 cards. So I didn't mentioned that. I will mention that if it would be a difference, you will see.
I think the request was just to display the median and mode, not re-order the list. We just want to see as many stats as possible if it's not too much trouble.

Quote
It might be nice to see a graph of for each card, x axis is the isotropic level of the raters, and y axis is the rank.

Maybe you'll see trends with the under/overrated cards.
Nice idea. Let's see what I can do. But: All lists are still weighted by isotropic rank, so I think those graphs won't tell you anything new.
A weighted average is a nice summary statistic to get an overall rank, but it would also be nice to see if there is any correlation between card rank and iso level. If it's too much trouble to post a graph, maybe at least compute a correlation coefficient? Again, I'm not trying to be too demanding, as you're already doing a lot of work, but the more stats we see the better. :)

As I said above, an unweighted ranking or using Median wouldn' have changed the order of the $2 cards. So I didn't mentioned that. I will mention that if it would be a difference, you will see.
I think the request was just to display the median and mode, not re-order the list. We just want to see as many stats as possible if it's not too much trouble.
Yes, my point exactly. I think it would be nice if you (Qvist) put the median and mode everywhere (2 extra numbers for each card won't kill anyone) but only comment on them when they are interesting...or at least median, pleeeeeeease  ;D

You all (I am too) are such geeks ;)
In my next post I added median and mode. I think the mode is not very meaningful, but I added it like you want it to have. I will edit the $2 article too.
Regarding the graph, I still have to make a few tests if I can get a result I'm satisfied with.

From the text: "If there's Mountebank in the supply and you're playing a 4-player-game, Moat might be a good buy." Might? In that situation, I think Moat is a MUST-buy, and I probably open moat/silver most of the time. "But if you're playing a 2-player game, buying Moat is mostly superfluous. Buying a trasher more against Cursers...is mostly the better alternative." You might be surprised if you simulate it in geronimoo's simulator. Just add a single remake or a single moat to the witch bot. Which do you think is better? Witch+Moat beast Witch+Remake 53-43.   Now I'm not saying just getting a trasher instead is not better some (or even a lot) of the time, but it's not like witch games transitioning into big money is a major outliar situation.
You're wrong if you think Geronimoo's simulator proves that Witch+Moat beats Witch+Remake. The basic Witch+Remake bot plays extremely poorly: it doesn't trash Witch when Curse pile is empty, it doesn't trash Curse+Silver when there is no good buy on the hand, etc. Just read the documentation for Remake.

Hm, interesting. I was very confused reading HiveMindEmulators statement. Anon79, that might be a good explanation, thanks for that.

What format is the dataset in?  Why not just open the dataset and let people do whatever analysis they want?

I will not release the data before my articles are finished. Later I'm not sure if will do it. At least I have to make the users anonymous as I don't know if all of you agree to publish your lists.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 07:13:47 am by Qvist »
Logged

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2255
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +3603
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2012, 12:45:49 am »
+2

Now I added Median and Mode. Both values don't take the isotropic rank into account.

The Best $3 Cards - Part 1/2
Link to the win rates on Councilroom
Link 2 to the win rates on Councilroom

#26 Develop (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 24.30 / Median: 25 / Mode: 26 / Standard Deviation: 2.5
Highest Rank(s): #16 (1x), #19 (1x), #20 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (13x)

Develop is the worst $3 card. There is no doubt about that. Nearly the half of all players ranked it last and the deviation is pretty low for 26 cards. Only the top 3 cards have a lower deviation.

A good trasher mostly has to be a good start buy. Develop can only trash one copper at a time without benefit. You get a Silver for a trashed Estate, which can put on top of your deck. That's at least really nice. Later in the game you get 2 cards for trashing one. This is something you only want if there are a lot of really good cards in the supply and most important in a specific price range. Because you have to gain a card which cost exactly one more and one less than the trashed card. Those cases are so rare. In the end of the game you want victory cards. So you can trash a $4 card for a Duchy and a Silver. But you have to put both cards on top of your deck. That is something you don't want if you're going for Provinces or Colonies. Developing a Silver in a Estate and Silk Road can be really nice for example. But you have to put them on your deck, really nasty. So it totally fails in being a good trasher. It only shines if there are a lot of good cards in a specific price range.
#25 Chancellor (Base) Weighted Average: 22.97 / Median: 24 / Mode: 25 / Standard Deviation: 2.9
Highest Rank(s): #14 (1x), #18 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (5x)

Chancellor is more than one point better than Develop, but still is second last. Its deviation shows: It's no surprise. It got #25 8 times. A few outliners can't let it get a better rank.

Being in the Base Set, most players (like me) didn't got the use of Chancellor at first. Yes, it costs $3 like Silver and gives also 2 coins, but it costs an action for what? To put your deck into your discard pile? Why do I want to do that? You can get your recently buyed great cards faster! Yeah, that sounds great. But those great cards are mostly terminals and then Chancellor becomes a dead card. I think it would be a better card if it wasn't terminal. So it's only good for rare scenarios like Stash or Counting House. And if you want to get your recently buyed cards earlier, use cards that put these cards on top of your deck.
#24 Woodcutter (Base) Weighted Average: 22.39 / Median: 23 / Mode: 21 / Standard Deviation: 3.0
Highest Rank(s): #11 (1x), #19 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #25 (5x), #26 (2x)

Another card from the base set. It has a small lead over Chancellor. It got #21 7 times, but that's just coincidence and doesn't make the card better because only 4 players ranked it higher than #21. Its deviation is still low and shows the concensus on that card.

It mostly fails the Silver test as its only use is its +Buy. So, you only buy it if you really need that +Buy for setting up your engine and there's no other card that provides that. You can use it very well for a Gardens or Silk Road rush, but beside of that, there's not really much to say about that simple card.
#23 Fortune Teller (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 21.05 / Median: 22 / Mode: 24 / Standard Deviation: 4.2
Highest Rank(s): #11 (1x), #14 (1x), #15 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (4x)

As there is no Attack card for $2, look at the worst attack in the game. Maybe because of that, it's the card with the third most last places. And as it is an Attack Card, several players gave it a mid-level rank. That may explain its clearly higher deviation compared to the previous cards. Its mode still is bad, 5 times it got #24.

In games with trashers you want your Estates in hand and get rid of them, especially with Lookout Fortune Teller is bad. If you've trashed them, Fortune Teller just cycles through your deck, so your opponent mostly profits from your attack. In Tournament and Tunnel (with assistance of Inn, Young Witch or Vault) games you help your opponent even more. And in all other occasions there are mostly cards that soft counter top-decked victory cards or get profit from them by discarding. If those cases all don't exist, Fortune Teller might be a good buy, but those cases are very rare too. It gets better in the end game, but in the end game mostly you don't waste your buy for a Fortune Teller. And in comparism to Rabble which can be very nasty, Fortune Teller doesn't even get more benefit if you play two or more in one turn.
#22 Workshop (Base) Weighted Average: 20.58 / Median: 22 / Mode: 23 / Standard Deviation: 3.7
Highest Rank(s): #13 (1x), #14 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #25 (2x), #26 (1x)

And there's already the third card from the base set with only one card left to come. It is just a little bit higher than Fortune Teller, but that may result from a lot of players that seem to love it. Surprisingly for me it got 8 times higher than #20. 5 times it got #23.

You must ask yourself: How many $3 or $4 cards do I want in my deck. With Gardens in the supply, you may answer "as many I can get". Silver, Gardens, Estates and more Workshops are all good cards. But in all other situations you want $5 cards and Gold. And in comparism to Ironworks where you at least get benefit and isn't terminal if you gain action cards, it's a "wasted" action. The only cards that you want as many you can get may be Tournament, Caravan, Conspirator and any Village + card drawer (Envoy/Smithy). But for all you have to spend your action and you have to be sure there isn't another terminal action you want to play too.
#21 Oracle (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 18.33 / Median: 20 / Mode: 20 / Standard Deviation: 4.8
Highest Rank(s): #9 (1x), #10 (1x), #11 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (3x)

Here's the second Hinterlands card and the second attack in the list. But we made a big jump and have left the really bad $3 cards and reached the mostly bad cards. Only 2 cards have a higher deviation. That may result from little experience as it is a relatively new card or really little consensus. It got #20 6 times, but it has 3 last places too, many for a #21 ranked card.

At least you can use the spy effect for yourself before you draw 2 cards, so you have two chances for your 2 cards which is neat. But you draw still only 2 cards what is still not very good if you use it in an engine. If you use it as a Big Money addition and there's no better card drawer in the supply, this may worth a buy as you still have the additional attack part. The problem with the attack is - like Spy - the little damage you do with messing up the top cards. The luck factor is high and you have to make hard decisions. Do you want to make your opponent discard the Silver and Estate? It really depends on the cards he have in hand, but you don't know that. And if you choose to put them back on top, he may even choose the order, another help for him. On the other side, it's great if you can discard two Golds. So, the attack part is weak, mostly you buy it because you need the +2 cards with the minimized draw luck.
#20 Smugglers (Seaside) Weighted Average: 18.09 / Median: 17.5 / Mode: 19 / Standard Deviation: 4.3
Highest Rank(s): #7 (1x), #10 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #24 (1x), #25 (2x)

It's only a little bit higher than Oracle, but it's Median shows it deserves to be ranked higher. 7 times it got #19 and only another 7 times it got #20 or lower.

With Smugglers the luck factor is high too. If your opponent has bought a card which you don't want, it's a dead card, especially later in the game where he buys only Provinces. And with Smugglers in your deck, you have to commit to the strategy of your opponent and mostly don't get better than him. Smuggle a Gold early or smuggle an additional Duchy in the late game is really nice, but with a supply with many terminals, you rather buy the good terminals and money instead of wasting your action for getting another Silver or another terminal you won't be able to play. But if there are many cantrips and you're going to build a neat engine, Smugglers can be a good buy. And if you're not going first you can compensate this disadvantage. Kings Courting a Smugglers can also be very strong in a good running engine. We can say, Smugglers is very board-dependant and can be a very good buy on some boards, especially if you're not going first.
#19 Shanty Town (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 17.31 / Median: 17.5 / Mode: 12 / Standard Deviation: 4.4
Highest Rank(s): #10 (1x), #11 (1x), #12 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #24 (2x), #25 (1x)

Shanty Town has a really high mode, but that's just coincidence as most of the ranks are way lower than #12. It's median is the same as Smugglers and it's the first card where the unweighted average would have caused a change in order. It would have been a little bit lower than Smugglers. Instead it got a little bit lower than the next card, that was really close. And it is the first card of 5 that are really close together.

Shanty Town is a very problematic village. If you want villages you have many terminals and want to build an engine. Shanty Town is bad as it only gives you +2 Actions and is actually worse than Native Village for example. If you want the +2 Cards for a Big Money strategy, the +2 Actions are wasted. And if you have multiple Shanty Towns in hand and no terminals, it's even worse. The best use is to minimize bad draw luck, when you have many terminals, but have the bad luck to not draw them with your village. Then you have a second shot to draw them with your +2 Cards. And if you have 2 Shanty Towns and 1 terminal in hand, it's not bad after all. Play your first Shanty Town, then your terminal and then you can play the second one and hopefully draw more terminals. But the raw benefit is in this case the same as you would get out of a "normal" Village.
#18 Wishing Well (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 17.28 / Median: 18 / Mode: 19 / Standard Deviation: 4.0
Highest Rank(s): #9 (1x), #10 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #22 (3x), #25 (1x)

It was very close. But WW managed to beat Shanty Town. The median is even lower than Smugglers and Shanty Town, but the concencus is higher as only one player ranked it really low and many players gave it a relative high rank. Not many players ranked it on the same rank, it got #19 4 times.

Wishing Well is a very interesting card, but of course very luck-dependant. Ok, it can never hurt, but in most of the decks it's just a cantrip and you may have better bought a Silver. Another problem is that you have to guess the second card, so that cards like Spy, Lookout that seem to synergize don't work. But Cartographer for example works really well. Then it can be a guaranteed cheap Laboratory. And in some decks you only buy a few different cards, so you can maximize your probability. And if you're really good with card counting, this is really a good card if there are few cards left in your draw pile.
#17 Great Hall (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 16.75 / Median: 16.5 / Mode: 13 / Standard Deviation: 4.5
Highest Rank(s): #10 (2x), #11 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #25 (2x), #26 (1x)

It's the third card from Intrigue in a row. I mentioned earlier, that cards that are very good opening buys and bad later in the game are very difficult to rank and therefore have a high deviation. The same applies to victory cards. You will see that nearly all victory cards have high deviation. Great Hall is no exception. It got a lot of low ranks, it even got last one time. The mode here has little significance again as it got #13 only 4 times.

There is not much to say to Great Hall beside how difficult it is to rank. It's an Estate that don't hurt your deck, so that's really nice. And you can buy it early if you have an additional buy and $3 left and don't need another Silver. It also supports Silk Road strategies nicely. You can even use Throne Room or King's Court with it for additional benefit if you're really desperate. It can enable Conspirator chains and other rare cases where another cantrip is useful. The best combo might be with Ironworks where you can pick it up and get a cantrip bonus. But it's never a card you use for your strategy, instead you buy it if you have $3 left and don't need more money, then you're glad to pick another VP.
#16 Oasis (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 16.35 / Median: 15.5 / Mode: 15 / Standard Deviation: 3.3
Highest Rank(s): #10 (1x), #12 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #22 (2x), #23 (2x)

Within those 5 cards that are very close together Oasis is second but it was very close. As a middle-ranked card it has a surprising low deviation and it got #15 8 times.

At first I read it as "+1 Action $1", basically a Copper. But it's much better as you get money out of your victory cards or curses, like Vault or Secret Chamber do. It's limited to one card, but it is a cantrip. It's not a very strong card, but it is a very nice addition to each strategy, especially if there's no heavy trashing possible. If there are hand-size reducing attacks on the board, Oasis is of course rarely a good buy.
#15 Black Market (Promo) Weighted Average: 16.29 / Median: 15 / Mode: 13 / Standard Deviation: 4.8
Highest Rank(s): #7 (1x), #8 (1x), #9 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #23 (1x), #24 (1x), #26 (1x)

Here's your first promo with a very high spread of ranks. It got #13 4 times, but even got last once. Like Oracle it has the third highest deviation.

It's hated by many players as it has a very high luck factor. You may draw in turn 3 the only curse-giving attack in the game, but you may also draw Treasure Map, Fool's Gold and Peddler or Trading Post. Or you draw 3 potion cost cards when you don't have a Potion in play or even in your deck. Playing your treasures in the buy phase can lead to many confusing rules questions, but can also lead to the well-known Tactician + Black Market combo where you can discard your hand in a Tactician turn with another Tactician after you've played all your treasures with Black Market. Many Cornucopia cards also benefit from the diversity you add to your deck by buying many cards from Black Market. The most famous combo may be Fairgrounds + Black Market where Fairgrounds can easily be worth 6VP but even 8VP or more are possible. But also cards like Harvest or Menagerie benefit from such diverse decks you can get from Black Market. So when do you really want to buy a Black Market when there's no Fairgrounds or Tactician in the supply? Either you know there are many good attacks in the Black Market pile and don't want your opponent get them or you don't want to win at all costs and just have fun playing with it and your friends and rely on your luck.
#14 Trade Route (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 15.38 / Median: 15 / Mode: 17 / Standard Deviation: 4.3
Highest Rank(s): #7 (1x), #8 (1x), #9 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #21 (1x), #22 (1x), #23 (1x)

As there are no $2s in Prosperity, here is your first card from that expansion. It got #17 4 times and has a very wide range of ranks. Why?

It's not a very good trasher as a opening buy as you don't get enough benefit until the end of the game (beside the buy). It's better if there are additional victory cards in the supply, especially action/victory cards like Island or Nobles that get bought earlier, but still, as a trasher it's no good opening buy. Buying green cards earlier just to get more benefit is rarely a good decision as your opponent may buy Trade Routes too and get the same benefit without clogging up his own deck. Mostly you buy it if it's the only source of +Buy and you really need that +Buy and later in the game where you're going green and it's really a neck-and-neck-race, so Trade Routes are now worth $3, $4 or even more. Then they can be really powerful. So, some of you may have ranked it as opener, the other players may have ranked it as strong card in the later game.
#13 Loan (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 14.22 / Median: 13 / Mode: 12 / Standard Deviation: 5.2
Highest Rank(s): #7 (1x), #8 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #23 (2x), #25 (1x)

Here's the next Prosperity card and the next trasher. It got #12 4 times, but it has the highest deviation of all $3 cards. What may be the reason?

Really, I don't know. For me it's a mediocre card or even better. Just like Lookout you can trash without spending an action, that's always great. It also gives at least one coin which is no big deal, but is still better than Trade Route. The biggest problem is the luck factor as it may find every time your only Silver in your deck which you even can't play in your next turn (and may discard all your good terminals at the same time) and it's limited to treasure cards and therefore basically to Copper. So it has advantages and disadvantages and some may evaluate the advantages higher while others seem to do it vice versa.
#12 Village (Base) Weighted Average: 14.10 / Median: 13.5 / Mode: 18 / Standard Deviation: 4.6
Highest Rank(s): #6 (2x), #7 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #20 (2x), #22 (2x)

That's the best $3 card from the base set and the last card before the big gap to the good $3 cards. It was close but it got higher than Loan by 0.12 points. It is the first card that got #6, but has still a lot of low ranks. It was #18 5 times.

It seems many had problems ranking the vanilla village. How do you rank a card that does nothing beside giving an additional action? It's a card that is important for all engines, but is useless if "Big Money" is the dominant strategy. The low ranks may come from Big Money players and the high ranks from engine builders. Am I right?

To the second part
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 08:15:27 am by Qvist »
Logged

Piemaster

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 260
  • Respect: +168
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2012, 03:01:59 am »
0

As a new player I am finding this project very interesting and educational, thank you!
Logged

theory

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3487
  • Respect: +5468
    • View Profile
    • Dominion Strategy
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2012, 04:53:09 am »
0

How about this -- I just upped the max characters to 200K characters/post.  I don't want to make it truly unlimited for fear of abuse, but do you think 200K is enough?
Logged

Thisisnotasmile

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1492
  • Respect: +661
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2012, 06:51:35 am »
0

Really? The $2 list was pretty good... but seriously guys? That list couldn't be much more wrong if it tried. You all suck.

Edit: Although saying that, I've got faith in the top 11. Only two of mine have gone already so it could still turn out alright, and one of them was Village which I had at 11, and it got 12, so that's no problem. Still waiting for my 20 to come out though...
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 06:54:13 am by Thisisnotasmile »
Logged

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2255
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +3603
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2012, 09:03:23 am »
0

As a new player I am finding this project very interesting and educational, thank you!
Thank you.

How about this -- I just upped the max characters to 200K characters/post.  I don't want to make it truly unlimited for fear of abuse, but do you think 200K is enough?
Yes of course. No problem. I just merged the posts. Thank you.

Really? The $2 list was pretty good... but seriously guys? That list couldn't be much more wrong if it tried. You all suck.

Edit: Although saying that, I've got faith in the top 11. Only two of mine have gone already so it could still turn out alright, and one of them was Village which I had at 11, and it got 12, so that's no problem. Still waiting for my 20 to come out though...
Don't take it personally, but IMO there are only two possibilities, either the majority is wrong or you are.
I initiated to do that list exactly for everyone to rethink your opinion on all cards. What cards don't you agree with? Tell us your opinion so we can discuss it.
The only card I don't agree with is Black Market being so high with the reasons described in my post. And you?
Logged

DrHades

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
  • Respect: +79
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2012, 09:04:53 am »
0

Time to say the biggest surprises for me:

#24 Woodcutter (my rank: #11): "That's him! That's the guy who put Woodcutter as #11!" Yep, that's me ;D The reason is simple - +buy is a gamechanger. There are BIG differences between games with and without +buy. Herbalist gives you just $1, Trade Route in the beggining maybe not even that. Woodcutter is as good as Silver! "It fails Silver test." oh, give me a break! There is no such thing as a Silver test! If you need the +buy you are building a big engine. And if you are building a big engine, you almost always have some villages so you don't mind that this is a terminal. So all I'm saying is - +buy is not an ultimate feature, but it is very rare in Dominion and Woodcutters gives you 2 nice coins to help you use that buy.

#19 Shanty Town (my rank: #10): If you are buying lots of Shanty Towns and using them as Villages then yes, Shanty Town is bad. But it gives you many other wonderfull options! Are you building a deck without terminals? Take this lab for $3! Is your opponent sending you a lots of crap so your engine is very clogged? Cycle faster! Yes, taking more then 3 Shanty Town is bad, but I think it is gennerally better than Village, because it is usefull even when you don't need +actions.

#18 Wishing Well (my rank: #9): It is handy, big time. You have $7? Wish for Copper. You have $8? Wish for Province/Duchy/Estate/Curse. You need +actions? You need second Goons? You need basicly anything? Use this badass! Yes, in many situations, Silver will be better, but if you are building an engine, you find yourself sad when you draw the Silver, so WW is much better later. I think it's true rank is just below Menagerie, cause they are very similar (although Menagerie is a bit better).

Okay, that were 3 cards that I got the highest of all people. And here comes a card, that I didn't have the lowest, but still surprised me:

#13 Loan (my rank: #22): Okay, so you want me, to buy a Copper instead of a Silver so I can trash my Coppers??? Are you nuts? This is the 2nd (after Develop) worst trasher in the game! Unless you have absolutely no other choice, it is a big NO and there are many boards, where Loan is the only trasher, and it is still SO SLOW, you don't want to waste time for buying it over Silver. Compare it to other "coppertrashers" - Moneylender gives you $3, Spice Merchant gives you +2cards/+1action. This poor guy gives you a Copper. No, thanks! (I know that Moneylender and SM trashes the Copper from your hand, so they give you a virtual "-$1", but at least you KNOW that you gonna trash the Copper, Loan can show you a Gold)

I am happy, that the 8 cards I got as "very good" are in the top12 :) And I am very excited about the order of them  ;D

PS: Thanks for the median and mode ;)
Logged

DrHades

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
  • Respect: +79
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2012, 09:06:41 am »
0

Really? The $2 list was pretty good... but seriously guys? That list couldn't be much more wrong if it tried. You all suck.

Edit: Although saying that, I've got faith in the top 11. Only two of mine have gone already so it could still turn out alright, and one of them was Village which I had at 11, and it got 12, so that's no problem. Still waiting for my 20 to come out though...
Don't take it personally, but IMO there are only two possibilities, either the majority is wrong or you are.
I initiated to do that list exactly for everyone to rethink your opinion on all cards. What cards don't you agree with? Tell us your opinion so we can discuss it.
The only card I don't agree with is Black Market being so high with the reasons described in my post. And you?

I kinda agree with TINAS about sucking, but totally agree with Qvist - tell me more, tell me more, like where you had a Loan?  ;D
Logged

kn1tt3r

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 585
  • Respect: +275
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2012, 09:07:29 am »
0

I'd probably exchange positions of Black Market and Oracle, but apart from that the list seems reasonable.
Logged

Thisisnotasmile

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1492
  • Respect: +661
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2012, 09:24:12 am »
+3

Well, as you say, Black Market is way way way way way too high. I'd argue that Smugglers is too. Most of the time, if your Smugglers had been a Silver you'd have been able to buy the card you smuggled anyway, and the extra buy you get to make instead (for $2 less) doesn't get anywhere near to making up for the times that Smugglers is a dead card in your hand. Great hall is also too high on the list, it just doesn't do... anything. It's a cantrip Estate and with terminal card drawers around, it can get in the way just as much.

Woodcutter and Fortune Teller are far too low. Fortune Teller is the worst attack in the game, but it's not that bad. It's a terminal Silver and it gives your opponent a 4-card hand next turn and can potentially skip their power cards in the process. Woodcutter is great because it provides +buy. Obviously, you never want more than one or two Woodcutters in your deck, but +buy is an invaluable resource to have at your disposal. It throws end-game planning out of the window as far is your opponent is concerned. With no +buys, your opponent can happily take the penultimate Province to give them a seven point lead. If you've got even a single Woodcutter in your deck they're going to think twice about it.

And then there's Oracle at 21... wow. Yeah, the attack isn't the best in the world, but man it feels good when you can discard your opponent's Witch and Gold. But that's not even the best part of the card. +2 cards isn't great, no, but you've got a fair bit of control over what those 2 cards will be. And if you discard the first two, you've just got yourself 4 cards worth of cycling. For $3. With an attack included. Early game I often discard 2 Coppers and draw Copper, Estate instead simply because that gets me to the Gold that I just bought even quicker. I mean, I didn't have Oracle in my top 10 or anything... but there is no way it's the 6th worst $3 card.

Ninjaedit: I had Loan at 13, exactly where it is on this list :)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 09:30:02 am by Thisisnotasmile »
Logged

kn1tt3r

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 585
  • Respect: +275
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2012, 09:35:03 am »
0

And then there's Oracle at 21... wow. Yeah, the attack isn't the best in the world, but man it feels good when you can discard your opponent's Witch and Gold. But that's not even the best part of the card. +2 cards isn't great, no, but you've got a fair bit of control over what those 2 cards will be. And if you discard the first two, you've just got yourself 4 cards worth of cycling. For $3. With an attack included. Early game I often discard 2 Coppers and draw Copper, Estate instead simply because that gets me to the Gold that I just bought even quicker. I mean, I didn't have Oracle in my top 10 or anything... but there is no way it's the 6th worst $3 card.

I agree completely.

I mean, compare it to Smithy. It draws one card more, but Oracle can draw selectively to some extend (so it somewhat favors quality over quantity). This is of course weaker, but it costs less and has a decent attack as added bonus.

It's not a game dominating card (though Oracle/Money is not bad at all), but way better than #21.

However, I've not voted here, so I'm not in a position to complain. Fortune Teller and Woodcutter would have been also quite low on my list, simply because something has to be there and most other cards are just a bit better.
Logged

Thisisnotasmile

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1492
  • Respect: +661
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2012, 09:39:22 am »
0

And then, of course, there's the card that I ranked at number 20 that hasn't come out yet. I can understand why some people would vote it highly, but I just haven't got as much good use out of it as you'd first think looking at the card. I'll happily admit that it looks amazing, but in practise it's mostly a wasted buy except in a few specific cases.
Logged

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1476
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2012, 09:41:34 am »
0

I mostly like Black Market for the same reason as Woodcutter. Getting a +buy out of it if the board doesn't have one. Smugglers I agree to TINAS. Both attacks I don't have a good feeling for, I usually don't play them because I want some other terminals.

And Loan: Yes, it's "non-terminal", it's +$1, it trashes from outside the hand, but nevertheless I usually have a hard time to come at $5 when I trash with Loan. You don't have that with Moneylender, despite being terminal and trashing from the hand. But just taking out the Coppers and leaving the Estates always ends up with destroyed decks for me, which the Moneylender somehow does not. Don't know why.
Logged

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1476
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2012, 09:43:14 am »
0

And then, of course, there's the card that I ranked at number 20 that hasn't come out yet. I can understand why some people would vote it highly, but I just haven't got as much good use out of it as you'd first think looking at the card. I'll happily admit that it looks amazing, but in practise it's mostly a wasted buy except in a few specific cases.

Scheme?
Logged

Thisisnotasmile

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1492
  • Respect: +661
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2012, 09:45:06 am »
0

And then, of course, there's the card that I ranked at number 20 that hasn't come out yet. I can understand why some people would vote it highly, but I just haven't got as much good use out of it as you'd first think looking at the card. I'll happily admit that it looks amazing, but in practise it's mostly a wasted buy except in a few specific cases.

Scheme?

We have a winner!
Logged

DrHades

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
  • Respect: +79
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2012, 09:46:28 am »
0

And then, of course, there's the card that I ranked at number 20 that hasn't come out yet. I can understand why some people would vote it highly, but I just haven't got as much good use out of it as you'd first think looking at the card. I'll happily admit that it looks amazing, but in practise it's mostly a wasted buy except in a few specific cases.
Tunnel?
Ninjaedit: Scheme??? Whov...
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 09:49:41 am by DrHades »
Logged

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1476
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2012, 09:49:07 am »
0

And then, of course, there's the card that I ranked at number 20 that hasn't come out yet. I can understand why some people would vote it highly, but I just haven't got as much good use out of it as you'd first think looking at the card. I'll happily admit that it looks amazing, but in practise it's mostly a wasted buy except in a few specific cases.
Tunnel?

Tunnel is worth its $3 for the 2VP even if you ignore the reaction effect.
Logged

brokoli

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1083
  • Respect: +722
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2012, 09:55:05 am »
0

Fortune teller  :'(

Fortune teller "the worst attack" ? I can't agree. Sometimes Fortune teller is better than a single rabble. Maybe I'm crazy but I think Fortune teller is even better than Swindler or Oracle. Well, fortune teller is weak when there are Tournament or baron... but how many times it happens ?

You can put a curse on top of your opponent's deck, like Sea hag.
You can put a province on top of his deck, and after, use your saboteur.
But Fortune teller's attack is very good, generally.

Fortune teller, the most underrated card in the game ^^. In this category, I would put also Develop and Woodcutter.
And Black market is too high, I think.
Logged

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1644
  • Respect: +1607
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2012, 09:58:00 am »
0

I don't have much to add (and did not submit a list), but wanted to say that I agree with pretty much all of TINAS's comments. 

One thing I do want to say about Fortune Teller is that the skipping past good cards effect is really not something that should be considered a benefit of FT.  Sure, there is a luck aspect to it where you could skip your opponent's Witch every shuffle, but you are just as likely to get him closer to it as you are to skip it.  The skipping cards effect is going to be a wash on average, and the cycling effect is going to actually be slightly beneficial to your opponent until the end of the game when they start buying VP.

Forge!!!

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 248
  • Respect: +128
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2012, 10:07:07 am »
+1

I can't help but feel like the blurb about develop has the idea of the card all wrong. You say that a trasher has to be a good beginning game card, but that's just because all previous ones have been. With the top-decking of the two cards you get it feels very much like a mid/late game card. You can trash your $4 into a Duchy if you really feel like you need to, or you can trash it into a Village/Torturer, or a Fishing Village/Wharf, or your $5 into a GM or Goons/Throne Room, or a $6 into KC/Mountebank or Torturer or whatever. I'm not saying that necessarily makes it that good of a card at all, just that that seems to be more of the purpose of it, rather than an early game trasher or a late game victory card getter.
Logged

theory

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3487
  • Respect: +5468
    • View Profile
    • Dominion Strategy
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2012, 10:07:29 am »
0

And then there's Oracle at 21... wow. Yeah, the attack isn't the best in the world, but man it feels good when you can discard your opponent's Witch and Gold. But that's not even the best part of the card. +2 cards isn't great, no, but you've got a fair bit of control over what those 2 cards will be. And if you discard the first two, you've just got yourself 4 cards worth of cycling. For $3. With an attack included. Early game I often discard 2 Coppers and draw Copper, Estate instead simply because that gets me to the Gold that I just bought even quicker. I mean, I didn't have Oracle in my top 10 or anything... but there is no way it's the 6th worst $3 card.

I agree completely.

I mean, compare it to Smithy. It draws one card more, but Oracle can draw selectively to some extend (so it somewhat favors quality over quantity). This is of course weaker, but it costs less and has a decent attack as added bonus.

It's not a game dominating card (though Oracle/Money is not bad at all), but way better than #21.

However, I've not voted here, so I'm not in a position to complain. Fortune Teller and Woodcutter would have been also quite low on my list, simply because something has to be there and most other cards are just a bit better.
"1 card more" is also the difference between Smithy and Moat.

Really, Smithy reads, draw my replacement card, then 2 more, and Moat/Oracle reads, draw my replacement card, and 1 more.  It's a huge difference.
Logged

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1476
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2012, 10:10:06 am »
0

Quote
"1 card more" is also the difference between Smithy and Moat.

Really, Smithy reads, draw my replacement card, then 2 more, and Moat/Oracle reads, draw my replacement card, and 1 more.  It's a huge difference.

Maybe one should compare it more to Courtyard?
Logged

Thisisnotasmile

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1492
  • Respect: +661
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2012, 10:11:48 am »
0

And then there's Oracle at 21... wow. Yeah, the attack isn't the best in the world, but man it feels good when you can discard your opponent's Witch and Gold. But that's not even the best part of the card. +2 cards isn't great, no, but you've got a fair bit of control over what those 2 cards will be. And if you discard the first two, you've just got yourself 4 cards worth of cycling. For $3. With an attack included. Early game I often discard 2 Coppers and draw Copper, Estate instead simply because that gets me to the Gold that I just bought even quicker. I mean, I didn't have Oracle in my top 10 or anything... but there is no way it's the 6th worst $3 card.

I agree completely.

I mean, compare it to Smithy. It draws one card more, but Oracle can draw selectively to some extend (so it somewhat favors quality over quantity). This is of course weaker, but it costs less and has a decent attack as added bonus.

It's not a game dominating card (though Oracle/Money is not bad at all), but way better than #21.

However, I've not voted here, so I'm not in a position to complain. Fortune Teller and Woodcutter would have been also quite low on my list, simply because something has to be there and most other cards are just a bit better.
"1 card more" is also the difference between Smithy and Moat.

Really, Smithy reads, draw my replacement card, then 2 more, and Moat/Oracle reads, draw my replacement card, and 1 more.  It's a huge difference.

Apart from Oracle actually reads "You can draw my replacement card and one more, but you can have a look at them first and decide if you want those ones or some different ones instead, in which case I'll cycle your deck by pretty much a whole turn. Oh, and you can attack your opponents while you're at it."
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4334
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2012, 10:14:50 am »
0

And then there's Oracle at 21... wow. Yeah, the attack isn't the best in the world, but man it feels good when you can discard your opponent's Witch and Gold. But that's not even the best part of the card. +2 cards isn't great, no, but you've got a fair bit of control over what those 2 cards will be. And if you discard the first two, you've just got yourself 4 cards worth of cycling. For $3. With an attack included. Early game I often discard 2 Coppers and draw Copper, Estate instead simply because that gets me to the Gold that I just bought even quicker. I mean, I didn't have Oracle in my top 10 or anything... but there is no way it's the 6th worst $3 card.

I agree completely.

I mean, compare it to Smithy. It draws one card more, but Oracle can draw selectively to some extend (so it somewhat favors quality over quantity). This is of course weaker, but it costs less and has a decent attack as added bonus.

It's not a game dominating card (though Oracle/Money is not bad at all), but way better than #21.

However, I've not voted here, so I'm not in a position to complain. Fortune Teller and Woodcutter would have been also quite low on my list, simply because something has to be there and most other cards are just a bit better.
"1 card more" is also the difference between Smithy and Moat.

Really, Smithy reads, draw my replacement card, then 2 more, and Moat/Oracle reads, draw my replacement card, and 1 more.  It's a huge difference.
Ah, but even the simulators (!) show that BM/Oracle is superior to BM/Smithy. And they necessarily play Oracle sub-optimally. Oracle is actually a power card.

jsh357

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
  • Shuffle iT Username: jsh357
  • Respect: +3866
    • View Profile
    • JSH Gaming: Original games
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2012, 10:37:03 am »
0

Yeah, Oracle has quickly become one of my favorites.  Its power just isn't evident at first because it seems dull at first glance.  I was bummed to see it so low on the list, but not too surprised. 
Logged
I stream Dominion! Sometimes! | Twitch Channel | YouTube | Twitter (stream notifications)
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6  All
 

Page created in 0.122 seconds with 22 queries.