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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.1: $3 cards  (Read 42355 times)

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dondon151

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #125 on: May 30, 2012, 02:42:48 pm »
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Develop: Hundreds of 3 card combos that we have not yet discovered or posted really. Decent in cursing games without those conditions.

I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that the possibility of 3-card combos (most of which aren't really powerful in any way) means that Develop is better. I might as well say that the mere possibility of deck acceleration that Chancellor offers on any kingdom makes it better, but we know that is not true.

There certainly have been games when matching up a Develop with a key card has significantly contributed to my win, but those match-ups were incredibly luck-based to begin with; things like developing my opening $4 into Oasis/Minion or something like that.
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O

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #126 on: May 30, 2012, 03:59:32 pm »
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Develop: Hundreds of 3 card combos that we have not yet discovered or posted really. Decent in cursing games without those conditions.

I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that the possibility of 3-card combos (most of which aren't really powerful in any way) means that Develop is better. I might as well say that the mere possibility of deck acceleration that Chancellor offers on any kingdom makes it better, but we know that is not true.

There certainly have been games when matching up a Develop with a key card has significantly contributed to my win, but those match-ups were incredibly luck-based to begin with; things like developing my opening $4 into Oasis/Minion or something like that.

I don't really understand your post in the slightest. My reasoning was that develop is a game changer on tons of boards, while chancellor is a game changer on... boards with Stash. "Tons of boards" is STILL restricted to 3-card combos that work/are good.
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Asklepios

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #127 on: June 01, 2012, 02:55:41 pm »
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I'd also agree that Develop is underrated, and that it is a better card than Chancellor.

Chancellor does have uses other than linking with Stash, but they're combos for weak boards, generally, or from the fact that its a +$2 action that costs $3 (which can be useful on Vineyards or Scrying Pool boards) rather than because its Chancellor.

Develop, on the other hand, is a card that often lets a more skilled player gain the edge over a weaker one. It turns one card into two, with exactly twice the total value. It changes deck composition, so allows you to transition out of early game cards (like moneylender or baron). It topdecks, so it lets you set up one-off combos of cards you might otherwise struggle to draw together (like turning that IGG into a Gold and a Remodel, or into a Border Village and a Salvager).
It rewards clever brinksmanship, as it works mostly in the low to midrange where stuff like duchy, gardens, estate and tunnel sit.
Certainly Develop is not normally a good opener, and its far from being as all-round zippy as Remake or as versatile as Remodel, but the more I play with this card, the more I see its utility. Its subtle, its clever, its hard to use, but its really not a bad card at all, if you use it at the right time and in the right deck. My favourite Develop play at present, I think, is developing a redundant $4 card into a Develop and a $5 card.

To me, Develop is undervalued if you try to view it as a card you build a strategy around, or a whole deck around. Where it comes into its own is when you view it as a card that can give a slight edge in other deck types, and to make your complex deck that little bit cleverer than your opponent's complex deck.

Chancellor, in contrast, rarely improves a toolbox deck overall, but rather works well in a few very specific circumstances.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 02:58:12 pm by Asklepios »
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DStu

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #128 on: June 02, 2012, 01:05:06 pm »
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Develop: Hundreds of 3 card combos that we have not yet discovered or posted really. Decent in cursing games without those conditions.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that the possibility of 3-card combos (most of which aren't really powerful in any way) means that Develop is better. I might as well say that the mere possibility of deck acceleration that Chancellor offers on any kingdom makes it better, but we know that is not true.

First, I think the list was compiled very early in Hinterlands, where most cards just settled, and nobody had begun to get a feeling for the more subtle cards like Develop. I don't think it will make the last place when you would redo the list now.

For the 3 card combos: I know that a 3 card combo is usually something you don't need to think of before, just because you won't see it often. But Develop by design needs 3 card combos if you want to describe a combo. And there are some really generic combos, which don't need Develop and 2 exact other cards, but more type of cards. I've written this in the Develop-thread, but again: If you want to build an engine, and the engine components happen to be $2 appart, Develop has good chances to be a great card. Not just a card that gives a little support, but the one the helps you building your engine faster and make it more reliable. And there are lots of these setups: $3Village+$5drawer, Border Village+$4drawer (with free $5 to Develop), Festival-Watchtower. KC+$5!, $4Village+Nobles.. You usually need some more support (+buy, or at least gain), but every engine needs this. And an engine has no problem to draw Develop and its target in one hand, especially if it's kickstarted from last turns Develop. And an engine might even draw the Develop cards this turn, if it wants to.
And that's just the engines, there are some more subtle tricks, but this is already such a large chunk where Develop gets really really really strong. Compared to say Oasis, which usually is not much worse than a Silver, but also never is much stronger than a Silver. Or said Chancellor. They might usually be better than Develop, but you might ignore them in most cases anyway, if they are 95% of a Silver or 20% like Develop in most games. But Develop has this games where it is really influencial, where it does things which you can't even compare to what a Silver would do...
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Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #129 on: June 03, 2012, 07:57:11 am »
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Personally, I'd be interested in seeing a new list fairly soon: All the cards now out we're familiar with, and with Dark Ages being so big and apparently likely complex, it'd take a while for that to be well understood. I think now might be a good time to see what people think.

Incidentally, have you still got the fun rankings, Qvist?

Sorry, I missed your question.
Yes, I have them, but only about 7-8 people did the complete voting, so the result wouldn't be very significant. But I can post them if you like.

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #130 on: June 03, 2012, 11:41:45 am »
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Well, there's no reason not to post them, methinks. Doesn't need a full writeup either.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.
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