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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards  (Read 17265 times)

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Qvist

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« on: November 27, 2015, 02:14:03 pm »
+16

The Best + Cards - Part 1/2

66+ votes for Adventures cards, 97+ votes for the rest.

#22 =0 Adventurer (Base) Weighted Average: 2.2% ▼2.5pp / Unweighted Average: 3.8% / Median: 0% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 8.4%

Without a doubt Adventurer is the worst card in this list again - it even lost over 2pp. It has also clearly the lowest deviation in this list. 75 votes were on the last rank, that's 3/4 of the votes. It was never voted above average.
#21 =0 Farmland (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 13.5% ▼3.5pp / Unweighted Average: 14.9% / Median: 9.5% ▼3.8pp / Standard Deviation: 12.9%

Farmland lost over 3pp, but is still second to last. It has the third lowest deviation. It was voted last 4 times and 3 times above average.
#20 ▼1 Harem (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 16.6% ▼12.5pp / Unweighted Average: 20.1% / Median: 14.3% ▼12.4pp / Standard Deviation: 16.9%

Harem is only one rank lower, but over 12pp worse, that's a lot. It was voted last 5 times and 7 times above average.
#19 ▼2 Bank (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 30.1% ▼10.6pp / Unweighted Average: 32.3% / Median: 26.3% ▼13.7pp / Standard Deviation: 22.4%

We're making a jump of over 13pp and Bank lost 2 ranks and also over 10pp, nearly as much as Harem. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted last 7 times and 18 times above average.
#18 ▲2 Expand (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 30.7% ▲7.7pp / Unweighted Average: 30.0% / Median: 23.8% ▲3.8pp / Standard Deviation: 21.8%

Expand is 2 ranks higher and nearly 8pp better. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. It was voted first once and 13 times above average.
#17 Prince (Promo) Weighted Average: 37.1% / Unweighted Average: 41.7% / Median: 42.9% / Standard Deviation: 23.0%

Prince is the first new card in this list. It would be 2 ranks higher in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 10 times above 70%.
#16 ▲1 Forge (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 37.6% ▲0.2pp / Unweighted Average: 38.0% / Median: 35.0% ▲1.7pp / Standard Deviation: 21.8%

Forge has basically the same average value, but is one rank higher. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 9 times above 70%.
#15 ▼1 Hoard (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 38.1% ▼12.1pp / Unweighted Average: 41.0% / Median: 33.3% ▼13.4pp / Standard Deviation: 23.3%

Hoard loses one rank and also a lot in its average value: over 12pp. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted list. It has the third highest deviation. It was voted first once and 17 times above 70%.
#14 Training (Adventures) Weighted Average: 43.6% / Unweighted Average: 44.3% / Median: 38.1% / Standard Deviation: 23.3%

Training is the first Adventures card. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It has the fourth highest deviation in this list. It was voted first and last each twice and 13 times above 70%.
#13 ▼1 Fairgrounds (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 46.6% ▼5.2pp / Unweighted Average: 42.8% / Median: 40.0% ▼6.7pp / Standard Deviation: 25.4%

Fairgrounds is one rank lower and over 5pp worse. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. It has the second highest deviation in this list. It was voted last 3 times, first once and 13 times above 70%.
#12 ▼2 Nobles (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 50.0% ▼3.9pp / Unweighted Average: 49.0% / Median: 47.6% ▼5.7pp / Standard Deviation: 22.0%

Nobles is exactly on the 50% mark. It's 2 ranks lower and nearly 4pp worse. It was voted last once and first twice.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2015, 02:14:09 pm »
+14

The Best + Cards - Part 2/2

#11 =0 Peddler (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 51.6% ▼1.0pp / Unweighted Average: 51.8% / Median: 50.0% ▼3.3pp / Standard Deviation: 20.7%

Peddler is slightly worse, but stays on the same rank. It was voted last 3 times and 12 times below 30%.
#10 ▼1 Altar (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 58.3% ▲3.5pp / Unweighted Average: 54.3% / Median: 56.3% ▲3.0pp /  Standard Deviation: 19.0%

Altar is one rank worse, but over 3pp better. It was voted 11 times below 30%.
#9 Inheritance (Adventures) Weighted Average: 59.4% / Unweighted Average: 58.3% / Median: 61.9% / Standard Deviation: 21.7%

Inheritance is the second Adventures card and the second event in this list. It was voted 9 times below 30%.
#8 ▲5 Hunting Grounds (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 60.2% ▲11.0pp / Unweighted Average: 58.6% / Median: 60.0% ▲6.7pp / Standard Deviation: 18.2%

Hunting Grounds made the biggest change in this list: 5 ranks and 11pp better. It was voted first twice and 6 times below 30%.
#7 Hireling (Adventures) Weighted Average: 61.5% / Unweighted Average: 65.5% / Median: 66.7% / Standard Deviation: 20.0%

Hireling is the only actual card from Adventures for this list. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted first twice and 4 times below 30%.
#6 Pathfinding (Adventures) Weighted Average: 66.0% / Unweighted Average: 64.7% / Median: 71.4% / Standard Deviation: 26.9%

Pathfinding is the second best event in this list. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. It has the highest deviation in this list. It was voted first 4 times and 11 times below 30%.
#5 =0 Border Village (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 67.1% ▼2.7pp / Unweighted Average: 66.8% / Median: 71.4% ▼1.9pp / Standard Deviation: 19.1%

Border Village is still on the same rank, but nearly 3pp worse. It was voted first 3 times and 15 times below average.
#4 Lost Arts (Adventures) Weighted Average: 76.8% / Unweighted Average: 74.5% / Median: 81.0% / Standard Deviation: 20.3%

We're making a jump of nearly 10pp and Lost Arts is the best event and best Adventures card. It was voted first 5 times and 8 times below average.
#3 =0 Grand Market (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 82.2% ▲0.6pp / Unweighted Average: 81.6% / Median: 85.7% ▼1.0pp / Standard Deviation: 13.7%

Grand Market stayed where it was and has also nearly the same average value. It was voted first 6 times and twice below average.
#2 =0 Goons (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 92.9% ▲1.2pp / Unweighted Average: 90.4% / Median: 94.1% ▲0.8pp / Standard Deviation: 12.4%

And there is the next big jump of over 10pp. Goons stays on the second rank with a slightly better average. It has the second lowest deviation in this list. It was voted first 27 times and 3 times below average.
#1 =0 King's Court (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 94.0% ▲0.8pp / Unweighted Average: 91.5% / Median: 95.2% ▼4.8pp / Standard Deviation: 13.1%

King's Court is still #1 with a small lead of about 1pp. It was voted first 38 times and only once below average.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 03:55:29 pm by Qvist »
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Limetime

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2015, 02:34:43 pm »
+3

At least adventurer wasn't in the top 12
Training should be higher than peddler probably.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 02:53:43 pm by Limetime »
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2015, 02:45:48 pm »
+1

Peddler is way too high.

I didn't vote Expand first.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2015, 02:54:04 pm »
+3

How is Bank ranked 19th?!  Has the community gone mad?!  Bank being ranked this low  is a travesty.  Bank, in a 5 card hand of all treasure, alone is worth 5 coins.  Then if you add draw, it can be pretty insane.  I understand that it cost 7, but...  Apparently BM isn't as liked as it used to be, or Bank is just in some tough company.  Either way, I'm so sad, so sad, so sad, so sad.  (Echo caused from being alone) :P
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SCSN

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2015, 03:21:00 pm »
+4

How is Bank ranked 19th?!

I found myself equally speechless. Also, how is Fairgrounds not in the top 10?

My list:

Code: [Select]
1.) King's Court
2.) Goons   
3.) Fairgrounds   
4.) Lost Arts 
5.) Border Village 
6.) Grand Market   
7.) Hunting Grounds   
8.) Pathfinding   
9.) Nobles   
10.) Hireling   
11.) Altar   
12.) Forge 
13.) Inheritance   
14.) Peddler 
15.) Prince 
16.) Expand 
17.) Training 
18.) Hoard 
19.) Harem 
20.) Farmland 
21.) Bank   
22.) Adventurer

My main disagreement with my own list is that I think Nobles is worse than the four cards below it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2015, 03:21:30 pm »
+5

Adventurer and Chapel should switch prices (but I still wouldn't buy Adventurer very often, haha).

Peddler is way too high.

Peddler is probably ranked high not because it's better than the other $6+'s when played, but because it can be bought cheaply.  I.e. say Bank could somehow be (easily) bought for $2.  I would consider it a much more powerful card in that case.

EDIT:
You could make a similar argument about GM -- by being harder to gain makes it less powerful than it would be otherwise.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 03:24:13 pm by Dingan »
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microman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2015, 06:00:02 pm »
0

How is Bank ranked 19th?!

I found myself equally speechless. Also, how is Fairgrounds not in the top 10?

So, are you saying you wished it was lower than 19th?  I guess I've always seemed to fair well with it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2015, 06:37:36 pm »
+2

Bank is okay, but for $7, you usually want a game-breaking engine component. It can provide a nice payload, but most often, a deck will have trashed most of its treasures anyway, making Bank not worth as much. Now, don't get me wrong. I've played games where Bank was worth a ton, but the 'metagame' has evolved further than just how much money can you make on a turn.
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Dingan

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2015, 07:17:42 pm »
+1

Bank is okay, but for $7, you usually want a game-breaking engine component. It can provide a nice payload, but most often, a deck will have trashed most of its treasures anyway, making Bank not worth as much.

Who says Bank can't fit into an engine?
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luser

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2015, 08:56:13 pm »
+1

Bank is okay, but for $7, you usually want a game-breaking engine component. It can provide a nice payload, but most often, a deck will have trashed most of its treasures anyway, making Bank not worth as much. Now, don't get me wrong. I've played games where Bank was worth a ton, but the 'metagame' has evolved further than just how much money can you make on a turn.
Still there are not that many games with two 7 cards. Also it should be definitely be above hoard as its payload is better than generating gold once you start greening.

Also training should be top ten, in almost any engine placing it to village/cantrip on first 6 doubles your buying power.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2015, 11:00:38 pm »
0

Bank is okay, but for $7, you usually want a game-breaking engine component. It can provide a nice payload, but most often, a deck will have trashed most of its treasures anyway, making Bank not worth as much.

Who says Bank can't fit into an engine?

*twitches*

Why didn't they play those last Platina and Copper before the Banks!?!?!?!?!?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2015, 11:32:31 pm »
+2

SCSN, are you sure Pathfinding is only 8th?

And to the community: if Peddler is so good, than why is Training mediocre? It's a free Peddler per copy of the most common action card in your deck.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2015, 11:46:23 pm »
+2

And to the community: if Peddler is so good, than why is Training mediocre? It's a free Peddler per copy of the most common action card in your deck.
On many (most?) boards it's easier to buy Peddlers than it is to buy any other action card; with cards like Worker's Village and Wharf, the opportunity cost of a Peddler is often zero.  Peddler is fantastic with most trash-for-benefit cards.  Peddler is a great target for +something tokens from Adventures.  Peddler works pretty well with Throne Room and variants.  Ultimately, Peddler has a significantly larger impact on the game than Training (or any of the cards in the bottom 11).

I'm baffled that Bank is so low.  Perhaps this is a consequence of my playstyle; I get the impression that I trash Copper less frequently than most.  I find that Bank is a fantastic addition to any deck that lacks strong trashing but has at least decent draw.  As a payload, I think it tends to be superior to Training.  Yes, Bank takes up a spot in one's deck, but it often provides more than Training's 4-6 coins.  Most importantly, multiple Banks can be purchased to amplify the payload.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 11:53:32 pm by aku_chi »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2015, 12:04:40 am »
+1

On many (most?) boards it's easier to buy Peddlers than it is to buy any other action card; with cards like Worker's Village and Wharf, the opportunity cost of a Peddler is often zero.  Peddler is fantastic with most trash-for-benefit cards.  Peddler is a great target for +something tokens from Adventures.  Peddler works pretty well with Throne Room and variants.  Ultimately, Peddler has a significantly larger impact on the game than Training (or any of the cards in the bottom 11).

I was with you up until that last sentence. You may end up being right, but I think it's too early to call. I think Training can be very impactful, and it can certainly give your deck an of cash much faster than Peddler, especially on boards where +Buy isn't abundant.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2015, 01:09:08 am »
+1

That arguments doesn't quite work.

And to the community: if Peddler is so good, than why is Training mediocre? It's a free Peddler per copy of the most common action card in your deck.
On many (most?) boards it's easier to buy Peddlers than it is to buy any other action card; with cards like Worker's Village and Wharf, the opportunity cost of a Peddler is often zero.
These boards are quite rare. Its case mostly in boards with wharf, goons or merchant guild. Otherwise opportunity cost is quite big. In most peddler rushes you need to build engine in otherwise suboptimal fashion by neglecting draw and instead getting +buy/cantrips. Most of time one player get 7/3 peddler split and second player has lot of mostly useless components. If its board where 5/5 or 6/4 split is likely there is almost no difference vs training on village.

Then there is question if with these rushes training would be better. Pawn with training looks great, same with candlestick maker. market square and worker village look bit weaker but its still good

Quote
  Peddler is fantastic with most trash-for-benefit cards.

That only point that has merit.
Quote
  Peddler is a great target for +something tokens from Adventures.
There is almost no difference, except that you could make peddler earn +2 coins with peddler, otherwise putting that token on cantrip with training is better. And peddler+buy=market square+training, peddler+action=village+training, peddler+buy+action=worker village+training.
Quote
  Peddler works pretty well with Throne Room and variants.
Thats false, tr-peddler gives +2 cards +2 action +2 coin. Pearl diver with training gives same and possible deck reordering, so basically everything else is better.

Quote
  Ultimately, Peddler has a significantly larger impact on the game than Training (or any of the cards in the bottom 11).
No, you shouldn't rate card without even thinking about it. And besides fairgrounds, nobles and probably card on 11. spot are better.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2015, 07:11:27 am »
+1

Bank is okay, but for $7, you usually want a game-breaking engine component. It can provide a nice payload, but most often, a deck will have trashed most of its treasures anyway, making Bank not worth as much.

Who says Bank can't fit into an engine?

*twitches*

Why didn't they play those last Platina and Copper before the Banks!?!?!?!?!?

The screenshot is not from Dingans perspective, but from the opponent's.
Dingan played a Ghost Ship. The three cards are those the opp kept.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2015, 07:55:01 am »
+11

Without a doubt Adventurer is the worst card in this list again - it even lost over 2pp. It has also clearly the lowest deviation in this list. 75 votes were on the last rank, that's 3/4 of the votes. It was never voted above average.

Not even our mystery reverse voter could bare to put Adventurer above average.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2015, 08:23:49 am »
0

Bank is okay, but for $7, you usually want a game-breaking engine component. It can provide a nice payload, but most often, a deck will have trashed most of its treasures anyway, making Bank not worth as much.

Who says Bank can't fit into an engine?

*twitches*

Why didn't they play those last Platina and Copper before the Banks!?!?!?!?!?

The screenshot is not from Dingans perspective, but from the opponent's.
Dingan played a Ghost Ship. The three cards are those the opp kept.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2015, 08:29:49 am »
0

How is Bank ranked 19th?!

I found myself equally speechless. Also, how is Fairgrounds not in the top 10?
I think it's because victory cards are hard to rank when comparing with action cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2015, 09:34:11 am »
0

Farmland could be a place or two higher. It's not game-breaker by itself, but it's self-synergy, ability to turn $6 card into a 8VP swing (albeit at the cost of not playing it) and general endgame engineering are something I see is recognized in many games Farmland appears in. I'd definitely put it above Harem, for example.

Nobles should also be higher, IMO.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2015, 09:47:30 am »
0

Farmland could be a place or two higher. It's not game-breaker by itself, but it's self-synergy, ability to turn $6 card into a 8VP swing (albeit at the cost of not playing it) and general endgame engineering are something I see is recognized in many games Farmland appears in. I'd definitely put it above Harem, for example.

It's pretty much like Harem, just more versatile and slightly more difficult to use. I would also put it above Harem, but not above anything that's above Harem.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2015, 10:07:37 am »
0

Farmland could be a place or two higher. It's not game-breaker by itself, but it's self-synergy, ability to turn $6 card into a 8VP swing (albeit at the cost of not playing it) and general endgame engineering are something I see is recognized in many games Farmland appears in. I'd definitely put it above Harem, for example.

Nobles should also be higher, IMO.

No, farmland is without doubt second worst. Only two uses are 8vp at endgame and turning estate to 4 cost when you need engine component. Otherwise its just gimped harem as you could buy only province with it and lose 2vp versus having harem. Its just better to get some harems for vp lead and some economy.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2015, 10:44:27 am »
+1

Without a doubt Adventurer is the worst card in this list again - it even lost over 2pp. It has also clearly the lowest deviation in this list. 75 votes were on the last rank, that's 3/4 of the votes. It was never voted above average.

Not even our mystery reverse voter could bare to put Adventurer above average.

Now that you brought this up, the fact that Adventurer was never voted above average is intriguing. If there is in fact a reverse voter, then they either meant to vote Adventurer above average or didn't vote for 6+ cost cards. Alternatively, there is no reverse voter but instead a major troll in our midst.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2015, 10:57:42 am »
0

Without a doubt Adventurer is the worst card in this list again - it even lost over 2pp. It has also clearly the lowest deviation in this list. 75 votes were on the last rank, that's 3/4 of the votes. It was never voted above average.

Not even our mystery reverse voter could bare to put Adventurer above average.

Now that you brought this up, the fact that Adventurer was never voted above average is intriguing. If there is in fact a reverse voter, then they either meant to vote Adventurer above average or didn't vote for 6+ cost cards. Alternatively, there is no reverse voter but instead a major troll in our midst.
I agree, there is a troll in our midst and his name is Roadrunner7671. 
Edit:  I was joking BTW, however you can never know for sure ;)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 06:28:33 pm by microman »
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