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Author Topic: Magical losses  (Read 6846 times)

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-Stef-

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Magical losses
« on: October 20, 2015, 11:50:07 am »
+20

Due to unforeseen circumstances that I don't want to complain too much about, I get paired up with a lot of very weak players recently.

And over the past few days I lost some games that I'd really consider gems. Like that game where my opponent copied my Silver/Bridge opening, got bridge in play with $5 on turn 3 and bought an estate with his nice $5 card on turn 3. Unfortunately I forgot to grab the log, but I think I'm going to start a collection after today's game.
If more people like to post their gems, I intend to edit them into this post and create a vote for the most beautiful one in a month or so. The rules for a valid submission are:

* you have to lose.
* your opponent has to do something that is against all conventional wisdom about the game
* your loss can't be the result of a very dubious or outright wrong play on your own side.

I'll start myself now, and I must say the bar is quite high already:

DoubleJack-Duke with Count support loses to scout opening
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popsofctown

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2015, 11:57:07 am »
+3

I have been experiencing this a lot too :( Losing to so many Spy openings
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SCSN

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2015, 11:57:43 am »
+5

Here is your T3 Estate game: http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20151017/log.0.1445113068412.txt

gokosalvager.com's logsearch is working for 2.0, you just have to click "Log" because "Viewer" isn't working yet (though you can copy the text link from there). It also won't show today's logs until somewhere near the end of tomorrow morning.
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popsofctown

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2015, 12:03:57 pm »
0

Buying a turn 6 Duchy isn't considered dubious play, Stef?  I usually think greening early is a way to lose a game against a weaker player, because of the increased risk of hitting lots of chokey 7$ hands and the chance your green card never misses the reshuffle.  I usually will buy Gold over Province on an early spike against a player that is making weak moves because I perceive late greening as safer against weak players.

I definitely see the indications in the kingdom that make early Duchy more appealing there, and I know I'm not on your level, but man it seems a little dubious to me.
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popsofctown

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2015, 12:09:44 pm »
0

Here is your T3 Estate game: http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20151017/log.0.1445113068412.txt

gokosalvager.com's logsearch is working for 2.0, you just have to click "Log" because "Viewer" isn't working yet (though you can copy the text link from there). It also won't show today's logs until somewhere near the end of tomorrow morning.

He said the game in question was a Bridge/Silver vs. Bridge/Silver mirror.  Did he misremember, or has this happened before ?!?!


I was so hopeful the guy was gonna pick up a Remake so that he could enhance the Estate he bought and kinda make some sense.  No such luck..
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 12:10:55 pm by popsofctown »
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AdamH

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2015, 12:27:51 pm »
+1

I've +1-ed your post, and I can think of several games, just in the past couple of months, where it's very tempting to post them here, but you said:

* your loss can't be the result of a very dubious or outright wrong play on your own side.

This is basically impossible to achieve. Not to mention YMYOSL. If someone wants to take a close look at their game to see if there was truly nothing they could have done better, then yes this is an awesome thing to do. But if someone just wants to whine about a particularly frustrating loss, I promise you won't get better at Dominion from that.
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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2015, 12:33:55 pm »
0

Buying a turn 6 Duchy isn't considered dubious play, Stef?  I usually think greening early is a way to lose a game against a weaker player, because of the increased risk of hitting lots of chokey 7$ hands and the chance your green card never misses the reshuffle.  I usually will buy Gold over Province on an early spike against a player that is making weak moves because I perceive late greening as safer against weak players.

I definitely see the indications in the kingdom that make early Duchy more appealing there, and I know I'm not on your level, but man it seems a little dubious to me.

I think 3rd shuffle Duchies are usually fine in Duke strategies. When you have Jack and Count, I would find it more dubious to not green at that point since you're not really going to stop hitting $5 reliably any time soon. New players might still go for the Duchies, and they might go for them early, and you still need to win the split.
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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2015, 01:06:26 pm »
0

* your loss can't be the result of a very dubious or outright wrong play on your own side.
This is basically impossible to achieve.

I agree, but I try anyway:
http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20151018/log.0.1445197539171.txt
I maybe should have played pure Masquerade Big Money, instead of mixing in 2 Bakers, but
my opponent opens Masquerade/Treasure Map, buys 4 Treasure Maps until turn 6 and cashes them all in for 8 Golds.
I don't think I can win here even on optimal play.

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2015, 01:15:02 pm »
+1

I didn't realize it was a Duke board.  I guess I have trouble using text logs instead of art.
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luser

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2015, 03:05:34 pm »
+3

So this is opposite of my opponent I am sorry as noobs don't know about that board? I have plenty of experience with it, I will probably write in another topic best ways to lose, as I don't remember exact logs.

But recently I played this, what would be your strategy?



Code: [Select]
Familiar, Feodum, Pirate Ship, Spice Merchant, Talisman, Golem, Catacombs, Cultist, Haggler, Expand
http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20151101/log.0.1446406235441.txt

I thought it would be easy win as on turn 3 opponent buys golem which is terrible even with marauder on board it would mostly play ruins. Also familiar is much weaker than cultist. However in this game both my opening buys miss shuffle and I hit 5 on turn 5 while oponent also gets expand on turn 5. Then he expands estates to cultists and wins even cultist split and also gives me 8 curses with single familiar.

I thougth I had some chance as opponent buys feudoums instead duchis which are worth 2 points at end so I didn't resign and hoped to overcome him by greening and three piling but no.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 03:30:22 pm by luser »
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TrojH

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2015, 05:35:13 pm »
+3

But recently I played this, what would be your strategy?

Pretty much what you did, except I wouldn't have bothered with Spice Merchant. I would've just gone Cultist-BM.
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luser

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2015, 04:31:45 am »
0

But recently I played this, what would be your strategy?

Pretty much what you did, except I wouldn't have bothered with Spice Merchant. I would've just gone Cultist-BM.

Ironicaly I did that to minimize probability of bad shuffle and bit faster junking
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DG

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2015, 09:01:45 am »
+1

Firstly, I'd say spice merchant into cultists is just worse than playing cultist + treasure. It's quite easy to get 4/4 income on turns three and four with the spice merchant and the benefit is just a gamble that you can junk faster than your opponent. Rabid's golem looks strange until you see that actions bought on turns four and five are likely to be put into play quickly by that golem. Silver + expand might be 'lucky' buys but so might be spice merchant + haggler/cultist/familiar.
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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2015, 12:46:14 pm »
0

I didn't realize it was a Duke board.  I guess I have trouble using text logs instead of art.

But he said Duke right in the OP...
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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2015, 05:15:49 pm »
0

I have lost a few games like stef mentions, however, I obliterated all those games from my memory due to embarrassment

I do recall a province game where my opponent bought p ships and won. I think a junker was on the board
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 05:17:04 pm by Beyond Awesome »
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luser

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2015, 06:35:17 pm »
0

I have lost a few games like stef mentions, however, I obliterated all those games from my memory due to embarrassment

I do recall a province game where my opponent bought p ships and won. I think a junker was on the board

Thats perhaps most common way how I lose versus noobs. Typically is like that I open mountebank while he opens pirate ship and on first two shuffles he hits mountebank-estate. Thats more common than treasure map, although I have some loses. In one game I opened seahag vs treasure map. Opponent managed to win by buying sea hag later, then after connecting map buying kings court and giving me three curses with kc-sea hag.
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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2015, 02:05:37 am »
+11

Log

Hmm... no villages + no real attack cards = Jack / Big-Money is surely best.


Code: [Select]
---------- Dingan: turn 1 ----------
Dingan - plays 4 Copper
Dingan - buys Jack of All Trades

...

Code: [Select]
---------- bbbchampion: turn 2 ----------
bbbchampion - plays 4 Copper
bbbchampion - buys Pirate Ship

HA!  He opens Pirate Ship.  What a noob.  He can hit my Coppers and bump his Pirate Ships up to +8 all he wants, I'll piledrive those Provinces in no time...


Code: [Select]
---------- bbbchampion: turn 4 ----------
bbbchampion - plays 4 Copper
bbbchampion - buys Pirate Ship

Lol, Ok buddy...


Code: [Select]
---------- bbbchampion: turn 10 ----------
bbbchampion - plays 2 Copper, 1 Silver
bbbchampion - buys Potion

Omg this is getting ridiculous.. He's investing a whole buy on a Potion, which will maaaaaybe get him a Possession, which he will surely not even be able to play by the time the game ends...


Code: [Select]
---------- Dingan: turn 19 [possessed] ----------
Dingan - plays 4 Silver, 1 Gold
Dingan - buys Province
bbbchampion - gains Province

------------ Game Over ------------
1st place: bbbchampion
2nd place: Dingan

Well, I'm terrible at life.
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Davio

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2015, 05:41:44 am »
+4

Well, you could have played this another way.
There is Black Market with a lot of interesting stuff...

And on t3 I would have discarded Copper (drawn Estate and trashed it) and bought Market.
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Dingan

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2015, 02:48:02 pm »
0

Well, you could have played this another way.
There is Black Market with a lot of interesting stuff...

And on t3 I would have discarded Copper (drawn Estate and trashed it) and bought Market.

I love Black Market, it is my favorite card.  But I tend to ignore it when there are other strong strategies, or when the number of key cards in the BM deck (villages, in this case) is low.  No doubt I didn't play optimally, but I stand by the decision to ignore BM here.  Maybe I'm wrong.  Idk.
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Davio

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2015, 09:14:58 am »
0

Well, considering that there are many strong cards in the BM deck (getting the only knight would be pretty good) aside from villages, there is such a large upside of getting 1-3 good cards out of it that it may still be a good strategy.

Let me put it this way and for fun assign some numbers:
- (double) Jack is solid, sure, let's say it's a 6.5 100% of the time, for an average of 6.5

- There is a large upside to getting some good cards from the BM deck, so let's say it's an 8 50% of the time
- The downside from revealing bad cards from the BM deck might not be that big, you can always go with some BM-Jack hybrid, so let's give it a 5.5 50% of the time

The average from the last two is 6.75 (obviously I assigned the numbers to make the result that way), a tiny bit higher than double Jack.

The numbers themselves are not important, they are just to illustrate the point that by going with BM you might not sacrifice that much (compared to double Jack), but stand to gain a lot if it does go well.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 09:18:48 am by Davio »
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Burning Skull

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2015, 09:11:02 am »
+6

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2015, 09:24:05 am »
0

Outpost/Contraband combo wins against Envoy BM:

http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20151111/log.0.1447277178965.txt

Didnt you learn from our championship match? You gotta buy more noble brigands!
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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2015, 01:24:27 pm »
0

Second Envoy on turn 3 isn't the correct play for Envoy-BM, is it?
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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2015, 05:18:49 pm »
0

Didnt you learn from our championship match? You gotta buy more noble brigands!
These slackers can't even steal a Contraband! Why would I want them?

Second Envoy on turn 3 isn't the correct play for Envoy-BM, is it?
Might be so. Never tried to simulate that. But I don't think it's a catastrophic misplay or anything :)

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2015, 07:09:00 pm »
0

I'm just going off memory of simulations and the wiki, but the chances of collision are really high early - you'd rather have the Silver there (and in fact in your log it would have gotten you a Gold turn 5). Envoy-BM shouldn't take 21 turns to win.
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luser

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2015, 12:20:14 pm »
+2

I have an probable winner, what to do if you manage to get gold on turn 4 in following kingdom?

Native Village, Scheme, Workshop, Armory, Bridge, Jack of All Trades, Scout, Golem, Adventurer, King's Court, Colony, Platinum

Of course build an kc-golem-scout-scheme-bridge engine with 5 golems and 5 scouts.

https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20151113/log.0.1447429723672.txt

It featured most wtf moment how could opponent misplay it. While I made several mistakes, mainly skipping jack its nothing in comparison with opponents playing style, for example turn 12:

Heino - draws Scheme, King's Court, Golem, King's Court, Bridge

---------- Heino: turn 12 ----------
Heino - plays King's Court
Heino - plays Golem
...
Heino - buys Bridge
Heino - buys Bridge
Heino - buys Golem
Heino - buys Platinum
Heino - buys Platinum
Heino - buys Platinum
Heino - buys King's Court
Heino - Scheme choice: Bridge
Heino - Scheme choice: Scout
Heino - Scheme choice: Scheme
Heino - Scheme choice: King's Court
Heino - Scheme choice: Scheme
Heino - draws Scheme, King's Court, Scheme, Scout, Bridge

I didn't get second kc until late and he could win by three piling remaining kc and schemes for like five turns.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 12:26:53 pm by luser »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2015, 12:44:58 pm »
0

I don't know how I would play that kingdom.  NV-Bridge is there, but then it's also alongside KC-Scheme.  Armory and Workshop help too.  Wow.  I probably wouldn't go for JoaT though.
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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2015, 04:40:27 pm »
0

I don't know how I would play that kingdom.  NV-Bridge is there, but then it's also alongside KC-Scheme.  Armory and Workshop help too.  Wow.  I probably wouldn't go for JoaT though.

Yeah, the winning strategy is either NV-Bridge or KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge (probably the latter b/c it can succeed with relatively fewer bridges).

In either event, Jack is not helping you  == the trashing doesn't thin your deck. The NV deck practically doesn't care at all; the deck going for KC's would certainly rather have silver than estate but not at the expense of adding a net card (Jack) to the deck to get it, not to mention using some terminal space and an early buy on something other than bridges and villages and things that gain bridges and villages.
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luser

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2015, 06:40:50 pm »
+2

I don't know how I would play that kingdom.  NV-Bridge is there, but then it's also alongside KC-Scheme.  Armory and Workshop help too.  Wow.  I probably wouldn't go for JoaT though.

Yeah, the winning strategy is either NV-Bridge or KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge (probably the latter b/c it can succeed with relatively fewer bridges).

In either event, Jack is not helping you  == the trashing doesn't thin your deck. The NV deck practically doesn't care at all; the deck going for KC's would certainly rather have silver than estate but not at the expense of adding a net card (Jack) to the deck to get it, not to mention using some terminal space and an early buy on something other than bridges and villages and things that gain bridges and villages.

No, that flawed logic cost me game. You couldn't hit 7 with native villages and bridges unless you empty nv mat. So you need to buy silvers or it will be too slow. With jack you get income for quick 7 and redrawing to 5 cards allows to put junk to nv mat and actually do something by redrawing with jack, with few bot games I could assemble kc-kc-bridge-bridge-bridge in 10-13 turns, with bridges only it takes more.
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wachsmuth

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2016, 02:40:34 pm »
+8

My opponent just bought Prince over Province in a money game where I've been junking him with Ambassador. I was very confused. On his very first hand in the following shuffle, he manages to collide Envoy and Prince. The rest of the game he started with 9 card hands. I lost, obviously.
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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2016, 08:24:04 pm »
+4

My opponent just bought Prince over Province in a money game where I've been junking him with Ambassador. I was very confused. On his very first hand in the following shuffle, he manages to collide Envoy and Prince. The rest of the game he started with 9 card hands. I lost, obviously.
if he's way behind that might even be the correct thing to do, the only way he would really be able to win is a hail mary prince
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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2016, 07:29:52 am »
0

I have another one here, kingdom is

Poor House, Philosopher's Stone, Rats, Smithy, Thief, Cartographer, Ill-Gotten Gains, Outpost, Stables, Treasury

https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160408/log.0.1460114343580.txt

My strategy is igg-philosopher stone. Opponent decides to do rats/thief strategy as with lot of luck manages to win by hitting phil-stones every time with thief.
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Seprix

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2016, 11:01:54 am »
0

I think I actually like Stables (or even Smithy) BM much more. I guess IGG is okay, but that's kind of slow. I mean, you can't ditch the Curses (unless you just love Rats), but you could be getting Golds and Stables instead. I think IGG is okay after you have like 3-4 Stables, but by then, you're trying to Province. Phil Stone just seems too out there and not worth it and even slower. There's no +buy.

Thief isn't terrible on this board, but I'd wait until later to pick it up, when you're more likely to hit his good treasures.

But Rats/Thief...?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 11:06:21 am by Seprix »
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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2016, 12:23:11 pm »
0

I think I actually like Stables (or even Smithy) BM much more. I guess IGG is okay, but that's kind of slow. I mean, you can't ditch the Curses (unless you just love Rats), but you could be getting Golds and Stables instead. I think IGG is okay after you have like 3-4 Stables, but by then, you're trying to Province. Phil Stone just seems too out there and not worth it and even slower. There's no +buy.

Thief isn't terrible on this board, but I'd wait until later to pick it up, when you're more likely to hit his good treasures.

But Rats/Thief...?

Thats false, stables versus igg isnt very good, as you will draw curses and dont have much treasures to discard, if you wait with 3 stables then you will end with 7/3 curse split
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Seprix

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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2016, 12:27:32 pm »
0

I think I actually like Stables (or even Smithy) BM much more. I guess IGG is okay, but that's kind of slow. I mean, you can't ditch the Curses (unless you just love Rats), but you could be getting Golds and Stables instead. I think IGG is okay after you have like 3-4 Stables, but by then, you're trying to Province. Phil Stone just seems too out there and not worth it and even slower. There's no +buy.

Thief isn't terrible on this board, but I'd wait until later to pick it up, when you're more likely to hit his good treasures.

But Rats/Thief...?

Thats false, stables versus igg isnt very good, as you will draw curses and dont have much treasures to discard, if you wait with 3 stables then you will end with 7/3 curse split

I stand by my statement.
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Re: Magical losses
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2016, 04:12:03 pm »
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IGG and Pstone looks good, but surely you want first Smithy over Silver on T4. Thief is not bad though I don't think you want it over Smithy. It probably becomes good in multiplayer, or as a desperation move to induce some variance if far behind.
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