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Kirian

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GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« on: April 07, 2014, 11:00:43 am »
0

The spreadsheet for GokoDom III is here:  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkuKfENQMyHadE9iM3Zzd3g4WVBrYV9Mb2ZWOWM5aEE&usp=sharing

Please post your logs and analysis!!
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jsh357

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2014, 07:07:39 pm »
+2

jsh vs Dunduks

Game 1
Log: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140407/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1396904806807.txt
Video:
Here is a board I hilariously misplay thinking Treasury/graverobber has a chance against Mountebank spam.  Don't do drugs, guys.

Game 2
Log: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140407/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1396906003363.txt
Video:
Probably the most interesting game of the set.  There's an engine with weak draw, Possession is available, and many cards interact with Possession unfavorably to the possessed.  If you only want to watch one, here it is.  I opt not to get cards that can hurt me when possessed, but Dunduks never manages to purchase a Possession anyway.

Game 3
Log: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140407/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1396906509293.txt
Video:
Gardens Rush with various enablers on the board.  It's fairly interesting, and I don't think the way I played was optimal.  However, it does a good job showing why Workshop/Gardens isn't always the best choice contrary to conventional wisdom, given other options.

Game 4
Log: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140407/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1396907167719.txt
Video:
I play Big Money Catacombs, get a 5 Copper Mint and trash the Mint to Trader.  Dunduks does his best to catch back up, but there was little that could be done.
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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2014, 07:12:51 pm »
0

congrats as the 3rd player that officialy made the playoffs :)
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markusin

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2014, 09:38:59 pm »
+2

My games against dudeabides. All were pretty interesting. I do not make it into the playoffs.

markusin 1-3 dudeabides

Game 1:
Log and Video



Code: [Select]
Poor House, Secret Chamber, Wishing Well, Conspirator, Wandering Minstrel, Catacombs, Horn of Plenty, Stash, Upgrade, Border Village
This board is just begging for a Horn of Plenty megaturn. My opponent finds a really neat interaction: Upgrading Catacombs into a Border Village. That's 3 cards right there, one of which can be a replacement for the trashed Catacombs. Very powerful on a board lacking +buy. This allows my opponent to get extra Wandering Minstrels, while I have my hopes on thinning my deck with upgrades.

Also, this is the first time I see Stash on Goko. Of course, neither of us got one.

markusin 0-1 dudeabides

Game 2:
Log and Video



Code: [Select]
Herbalist, Pawn, Storeroom, Feast, Young Witch, City, Contraband, Haggler, Market, Minion, Torturer
Storeroom isn't the best bane for Young Witch. Nevertheless, I underestimated their usefulness on this board that at least had city for a source of +actions. My opponent adds a Torturer to his deck, helping him win the curse split despite having two Young Witches to his 1. I started getting Minions, hoping that their cycling would help me find my Young Witches faster, and expected them to be a great asset in finding my Cities once they inevitably leveled up. My opponent triggers a bad reshuffle towardsw the end, giving me a good chance of catching up with my Detroit Rock Cities (because calling them Level 2 Cities or Level 3 Cities just doesn't cut it for everyone).

markusin 1-1 dudeabides

Game 3:
Log and Video



Code: [Select]
Fishing Village, Storeroom, Urchin, Bishop, Envoy, Spice Merchant, Band of Misfits, Counterfeit, Hunting Party, Mystic
This series was full of interesting boards. This one was no exception. Though it featured Hunting Party, it also featured Fishing Village with Envoy for draw. Bishop and especially Band of Misfits also came into play. I went for the trim, 1-Province a turn and using Bishop for VP while my opponent went for something more explosive involving Counterfeit. I do manage to get the early lead though.

markusin 1-2 dudeabides

Game 4:
Log and Video



Code: [Select]
Cellar, Embargo, Pawn, Workshop, Familiar, Gardens, Ironworks, Remake, Rogue, Witch
Ironworks-Gardens mirror with Workshop to boot. I start with a 2/5 split, yet opt to open Pawn/Ironworks over something with Witch. I don't see how anything can possibly keep up with the rush except for the rush itself. I tragically lose the Gardens split, which pretty much seals the game. I wonder if Rogue could have been effective here, but it seems too slow in the non-mirror.


Thanks for the games, dudeabides.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2014, 02:04:11 am »
0

Jsh's 3rd game frankly baffles me. Although there are certainly some reasonable gardens enablers on that board, the attacks are vicious, and an engine has every component but trashing. Watchtower is especially potent, because it synergizes with the low-draw hamlets and squires, and more importantly because of its trash-on-gain ability. This allows a 2$ watchtower hand to buy and trash squire to instantly gain a topdecked familiar or Mountebank. Cursing may be less frightening for a gardens deck, but even gardens has its limits. If the opponent ignores attacks, I expect the engine player to build up to Grand Market, or at least large Wharf draws, and run away.

Are you sure gardens was the right strategy here?
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Dunduks

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2014, 02:24:48 am »
0

JacquesTheBard,

I thought about engine but I couldn't make decision if it is better as rush so I went with rush. OK, I didn't see gaining&trashing Squire as way to gain Familiar/Mountebank.
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Dunduks

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2014, 02:59:02 am »
+1

jsh vs Dunduks, my comments

Game 1

I tried not to do something special, jsh tried something fancy, my two Mountebanks were enough.

Game 2

It was strange - after turn 4 we had pretty similar decks, after jsh turn 6 I wanted to resign (I don't want to think that Woodcutter is so much better as Silver there). It looks like Procession was wrong, also as HoP wasn't optimal. After it I tried to guess when I'll get possesed without too much success. And turn 18 - I just miscounted money, ok, it shouldn't make difference at the end but anyway it was very shit feeling.

Game 3

I know, I know - you make your shuffle luck but anyway turn 13, ehh ..., ok, at least jsh Swindler didn't shoot deputy. After jsh opened Squire I thought he would go engine and it could be interesting but I hadn't guts for it.

Game 4

I know that Alchemists aren't quick drivers. Maybe after jsh Mint-Trader trick I should go for Universities, Catacombs, Pillages and didn't touch Alchemists at all.

Anyway, thanks for games, stronger player won and, jsh, good luck in play-off.

Also big thanks to Kirian for organizing and Lady Luck for my results - at the start of tournament I couldn't imagine I'll have a fighting chance for place in Sweet 16.

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yed

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2014, 06:30:43 am »
0

markusin 1-3 dudeabides
You sould add spoiler here too. (I have modified the quote.)
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markusin

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2014, 09:35:10 am »
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markusin 1-3 dudeabides
You sould add spoiler here too. (I have modified the quote.)
I suppose I should. I made the false assumption that the viewer knows how many games were played in advance. There is only one possible score where you lose a series after 4 games: 1-3.
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jsh357

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2014, 09:49:09 am »
0

Jsh's 3rd game frankly baffles me. Although there are certainly some reasonable gardens enablers on that board, the attacks are vicious, and an engine has every component but trashing. Watchtower is especially potent, because it synergizes with the low-draw hamlets and squires, and more importantly because of its trash-on-gain ability. This allows a 2$ watchtower hand to buy and trash squire to instantly gain a topdecked familiar or Mountebank. Cursing may be less frightening for a gardens deck, but even gardens has its limits. If the opponent ignores attacks, I expect the engine player to build up to Grand Market, or at least large Wharf draws, and run away.

Are you sure gardens was the right strategy here?

Looking at how the openings went, yes.  It's true than an engine could work on that board, but my opponent opened obviously aiming at Gardens, so I had to get in there.  The Gardens pile-out is really easy on that board, so I don't think there's a whole lot of time to build, and with Squire he'd have plenty of opportunity to bump Gardens up.
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yed

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2014, 10:30:02 am »
0

markusin 1-3 dudeabides
You sould add spoiler here too. (I have modified the quote.)
I suppose I should. I made the false assumption that the viewer knows how many games were played in advance. There is only one possible score where you lose a series after 4 games: 1-3.
You don't know # of games when you roll down to video link. And even with 4 games, you could have won 3-1.

And this is another spoiler: I do not make it into the playoffs. I do not make it into the playoffs.
I did not read it before, but the score is hard to miss.

Thanks for the videos!
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 10:32:41 am by yed »
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markusin

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2014, 01:29:26 pm »
0

markusin 1-3 dudeabides
You sould add spoiler here too. (I have modified the quote.)
I suppose I should. I made the false assumption that the viewer knows how many games were played in advance. There is only one possible score where you lose a series after 4 games: 1-3.
You don't know # of games when you roll down to video link. And even with 4 games, you could have won 3-1.

And this is another spoiler: I do not make it into the playoffs. I do not make it into the playoffs.
I did not read it before, but the score is hard to miss.

Thanks for the videos!
Yeah, I'll be more careful next time, and not assume everyone reads the results thread or the raw data.
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yed

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2014, 01:38:27 pm »
0

markusin 1-3 dudeabides
You sould add spoiler here too. (I have modified the quote.)
I suppose I should. I made the false assumption that the viewer knows how many games were played in advance. There is only one possible score where you lose a series after 4 games: 1-3.
You don't know # of games when you roll down to video link. And even with 4 games, you could have won 3-1.

And this is another spoiler: I do not make it into the playoffs. I do not make it into the playoffs.
I did not read it before, but the score is hard to miss.

Thanks for the videos!
Yeah, I'll be more careful next time, and not assume everyone reads the results thread or the raw data.
Thanks. I am not reading the results thread so that I am not spoiled :)
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hdu88

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2014, 06:38:35 pm »
+2

hdu88 vs AdamH: SPOILER ALERT IF YOU WANT TO WATCH THE YOUTUBE VIDEOS FIRST

Winner moves on to Top 16, loser is out. In the case of a draw, both of us are probably eliminated on the bubble.

Game 1
Highway/Market Square megaturn with Mercenary as the only trashing. He hits the Urchin collision on the first reshuffle while I miss, and it goes downhill from there.

16-47
0-1


Game 2
There's a saying in the fighting game community that execution is everything. You might know all of the frame data on the Storm TAC infinite combo, but if you can't consistently execute it then it's better just to do a simpler combo--which is exactly what the best Storm player in the world does. I figured that execution doesn't matter in Dominion because how hard can it be to click the right buttons when you have all the time in the world? I got to find out the hard way. In theory, I could buy all 8 Provinces by Turn 15, especially with my opponent's Soothsayer helping my economy (yes you read that right). In practice, I haven't played a KC Storeroom board in a long time, so I forgot to click through all 6 Storeroom activations, which resulted in me triggering a bad reshuffle AND losing half of my money for my own turn, so essentially I lost 1.5 turns. Props to Adam for capitalizing on this with the perfect buys on Turn 15; if he buys even slightly differently I can either win by emptying Provinces or emptying piles.
24-37
0-2


Game 3
Rebuild board. My Turns 3-6 are ALL $5, so I win, right? Not when my Rebuilds are flipping each other over while Adam's Rebuilds are flipping 10 non-Rebuild cards. I feel like my only mistake is buying Estate right before Adam empties the Duchy pile.
21-29
0-3


Thanks to Adam for some good games (okay, one AMAZING game and two games I'd rather forget), and good luck in the eighthfinals? Is that a word?

P.S. The censored word was brainfart. I have no idea why Goko would censor that.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 06:39:48 pm by hdu88 »
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Qvist

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2014, 03:23:25 am »
+1



Game 1:

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140408/log.52215356e4b08be7ae40aa77.1396978970262.txt



Code: [Select]
Apothecary, Black Market, Sage, Advisor, Armory, Scout, Treasure Map, Walled Village, Contraband, Hunting Grounds
With Baker in the Black Market, a double Treasure Map opening is really tempting. But I think the engine is just so strong here even without +Buy on the board. So I open Potion/Armory. My opponent opens Armory/Black Market signaling also an engine. But then he surprises me by gaining Silvers with Armory and going for a money centered deck. I get Black Market in the next shuffle and I got unlucky because my Potion misses the shuffle. In turn 7 my opponent already got a Province which might have been a bit premature. In turn 8 he gets the Margrave that I really aimed for out of the Black Market. But my engine slowly starts to get rolling. My opponent then gets Conspirator/Estate (trashing Hovel) instead of Gold in turn 11, so I think he can't really decide between engine or Big Money. Turn 11 was also my first big turn drawing most of my deck. I gained a second Armory with my Armory and in the next turn I double top-decked Treasure Map for a guaranteed hit next turn. From there on I was able to hit Province each turn which sealed the deal for me.


Game 2:

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140408/log.52215356e4b08be7ae40aa77.1396981672003.txt



Code: [Select]
Vagrant, Forager, Workshop, Noble Brigand, Procession, Worker's Village, Mystic, Outpost, Tribute, Farmland
Not a particular strong board here. Big Money support is only in Noble Brigand, but I think trashing down with Forager and getting Mystics is superior. We both going for the same strategy. I open Forager/Silver while he opens Forager/Workshop. The Workshop enables him to gain Worker's Villages and process them into Mystics, but I think this is slower than buying the Mystics in the traditional way. Later I realise the nice Vagrant+Mystic interaction which led me to believe that the Mystic strategy is just superior. My opponent also gained Noble Brigands with Workshop, but they didn't do a lot of damage, well they flipped all of my Mystics which was kind of annoying. I won the Mystic split 6/4 which I think was very important. We then had both 2 Provinces and I decide to go full green by buying a Duchy. I then could get a Province in the next hand and was in very good shape. He got 2 Duchies in the following turns while I got Procession and Province. He has to get the penultimate Province and with him trashing a Silver to Forager I am able to buy the last Province and win.


Game 3:

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140408/log.52215356e4b08be7ae40aa77.1396983087461.txt



Code: [Select]
Secret Chamber, Horse Traders, Talisman, Taxman, Thief, Apprentice, Governor, Merchant Guild, Mint, King's Court
So, this a crazy powerful board and you really want to get a lot of King's Courts and Governors. But how to get there? The Horse Traders/Silver opening is pretty clear to both of us. I decided to get an Apprentice with my first $5, hoping to get a lucky Mint, but also to thin which should help connecting King's Court with Governor later. My opponent is getting Governor/Taxman in the next shuffle, but I really disagree with the Taxman there especially as it just triggers my Horse Traders which I end up buying 3 of them. In turn 5 I already got my first lucky King's Court, he gets his first in turn 7, I get the second one in turn 8, but I really need Governors now as I have none so far in the deck. My opponent mostly used Governor for draw and should have opted for Gold a few times, I think as getting Silvers really clog up the deck. I then get 5 Governors. In turn 12 my opponent goes for big draw and gets Double Province. I now have to go for the mega turn myself and start with a big hand where my two triggered Horse Traders draw my 2 Governors, yeah. I can't end it though, I was $2 short, but I was commited and get 5 Provinces and a Duchy. My opponent now needs Province, triple Duchy to win, but he only was able to get double Duchy which secured me the win.

Thanks for the fun games, antigoth, and sorry for the long first game.
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2014, 09:16:37 am »
+2

AdamH 3, hdu88 0

Link to entire live stream on Twitch
Link to video playlist on YouTube

This match is a must-win for both of us, since the winner almost certainly makes the finals.


Game 1: AdamH 47, hdu88 16
Game Log     Twitch Highlight     YouTube Video
Kingdom Cards: Poor House, Squire, Fishing Village, Market Square, Urchin, Explorer, Highway, Horn of Plenty, Farmland, Expand

So there's no draw and the only trashing/attack is Urchin/Mercenary, and with an explosive payload in Highway+Market Square, the game will likely come down to who collides Urchins earlier. I collide on T3 and he doesn't until his next shuffle, and there's no catching up at that point. Yay, coin flips!


Game 2: hdu88 24, AdamH 37
Game Log     Twitch Highlight     YouTube Video
Kingdom Cards: Courtyard, Fishing Village, Storeroom, Militia, Hunting Party, Mandarin, Mint, Soothsayer, Nobles, King's Court

This game was ridiculous, such a hard board to play perfectly and with the stakes so high this 16-turn game took about 55 minutes to play out. I started to get really nervous as the game went on, and I was mentally exhausted by the end of it, as I'm sure most of the chat was.

So the only trashing is Mint, but there's King's Court and a ton of draw. There are multiple explosive payloads you can have for this engine here, and you have to keep your eyes open for Soothsayer since there's no way to trash Curses -- with Militia he presses his first player advantage and gets off to an early lead, grabbing King's Courts before me and winning the Nobles split 6-2. I buy my first Mint a little earlier than I should, but other than that I just calmly build until I can hit King's Court myself.

He goes for an engine where he draws his deck, plays Storeroom for cash, redraws the deck, and repeats as many times as possible, while the payload I aim for involves Kinging Soothsayers, Minting the Golds, drawing them, and then spending the Golds and buying a Mint each turn to keep thin. There's a point where he misclicks while playing Storeroom which set him back, but as I calmly built up I was somehow getting back into the game. With extremely careful endgame play I'm able to stay in a good position and finally end the game on piles (when I could have just bought all the Provinces instead *facepalm*) for a win.

I was afraid of reading the chat after this game; during the game I kept on finding things I could have done to make things better and I was sure the chat would be telling me I was doing EVERYTHING wrong, but it turns out they thought I was playing very well! The only big mistake they mentioned was that my first Mint buy was probably a little bit early, and that's still a tough call to make; and they said the big difference in that game was that I bought Soothsayer and my opponent didn't -- sure the Curses gave him more things to discard but looking back I really like that play.

Turns out that during this game I had 28 (!!!!!!) viewers at one point, which is more than double what my previous "viewer PB" was. I'm not positive who all was watching, but thanks to everybody who tuned in, it's so amazing to have that kind of turnout. Also, special thanks to amalloy for sending me the whole chat log from that game :D


Game 3: hdu88 21, AdamH 29
Game log     Twitch Highlight     YouTube Video
Kingdom Cards: Squire, Chancellor, Village, Marauder, Navigator, Nomad Camp, Sea Hag, Walled Village, Cartographer, Rebuild, with Shelters

Well, it's Rebuild with Shelters. He chooses Navigator as his enabler and I choose Marauder. With some luck and tight play I manage to buy a Province and somehow play more Rebuilds, and he also gets stuck with an extra Estate in his deck once the Duchies are gone, so that's about it for this game.


Matches like this are why I join tournaments -- to have opportunities to play high-level players in a competitive setting. The first and third games were mostly luck-driven, but the second game was quite the ordeal and I'm glad I got to play that game. This is my first time making it this deep in a tournament, too! I'm really excited about what's to come.

Thanks for the match!

EDIT: This is my 1000th post on F.DS!  ;D ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 08:04:14 pm by AdamH »
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dethwing

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2014, 01:19:13 pm »
+1

Holy crap that game 2. Well done!
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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2014, 01:34:14 pm »
0

I had to leave in the middle of Game 2... You won it! Wow!

Storeroom is a dangerous Goko card, for precisely that reason.
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Titandrake

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2014, 07:35:30 pm »
+1

Titandrake 4-2 Psyduck

Okay, so I had no mic for the first game. So, as a spur of the moment idea, I typed what I was thinking into the chat box.

It didn't work. Game 1 took around 1.5 hours, because it was Bishop madness with a really weird, hard endgame to think about. So, I was spending half my turn just typing random things, because there's a lot to decide on. I'm still deciding what to do about it, since I doubt anyone wants to watch that entire video. What will probably happen, is that I will try to edit down the 1st game, and leave the rest of the games intact, because I have a mic for the rest of those.

Anyways, that's going to take a while, so here's some logs for now.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140409/log.505f5ec4a2e6714a97eee844.1397069699823.txt
Crossroads, Trade Route, Philosopher's Stone, Bishop, Bureaucrat, Horse Traders, Duke, Tribute, Farmland, Grand Market

I decide on HT-Duke, then switch my mind on turn 4. I don't remember much besides that, don't know how I managed to win, or what was going on. Just, whatever, forget this game. What I do remember is that on my last turn, I have a 50/50 shot of winning vs losing, in that it all depends on if I draw a victory card or not. I don't, so I win.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140409/log.505f5ec4a2e6714a97eee844.1397073385204.txt
Fool's Gold, Tunnel, Philosopher's Stone, Coppersmith, Ironmonger, Taxman, Baker, Margrave, Soothsayer, Bank

Margrave-Fool's Gold, I buy a Soothsayer, always draw it dead, and it costs me so many Provinces. Psyduck wins pretty easily.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140409/log.505f5ec4a2e6714a97eee844.1397074660040.txt
Vineyard, Moat, Oracle, Sage, Advisor, Conspirator, Ironmonger, Smithy, Apprentice, Haggler

No +Buy, but Haggler gives you ways to gain actions. I get an early $5 for Haggler, then start using Haggler to gain Apprentice and Ironmongers and Conspirators. My deck starts up faster, and Apprentice trashes out most of my starting cards. Psyduck doesn't get Apprentice until later, and by then it was too late.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140409/log.505f5ec4a2e6714a97eee844.1397076013129.txt
Transmute, University, Fortress, Ironmonger, Salvager, Taxman, Embassy, Royal Seal, Adventurer, Border Village

Salvager + Border Village + Fortress is a nice setup. I misplay, buying a Fortress on T3 which should have been Embassy. Psyduck wins the BV split and gets the win with the better engine. Need to remember to buy the cards, then buy the payload.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140409/log.505f5ec4a2e6714a97eee844.1397077965776.txt
Courtyard, Haven, Doctor, Smugglers, Storeroom, Trade Route, Advisor, Plaza, Remake, Duke

Really interesting board. Courtyard isn't the best card draw, but you have the trashing, the actions, and the +Buy. I decide on Storeroom/Silver into Duchy Duke. Psyduck opens Remake/Smugglers, with the plan of Smuggling away some Duchies, then Remaking them into Gold and playing the engine. We split Duchies 4-4, which is really bad for me, so I decide I need to end ASAP and start running out the Dukes and Estates. It helps that Trade Route is amazing at this point. I'm not sure which strategy is better: I feel like the engine should be able to get enough Provinces in time, but I'm not sure, and if the Duke player gets 5 Duchies, they win. Overall though, I think I played the Duke deck right.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140409/log.505f5ec4a2e6714a97eee844.1397079050572.txt
Beggar, Embargo, Village, Moneylender, Nomad Camp, Remake, Explorer, Graverobber, Horn of Plenty, Mandarin

You know your board is slow when the best deck looks like Mandarin-BM. Psyduck has 5-2, Embargoes Gold and plans to use Remake to trash Mandarins and other $5 costs into Gold. Turns out that this is far too fancy and loses to Mandarin and Explorer.

I feel like these boards were all pretty good. Lots of decisions, not too many swingy cards, and the small decisions mattered a lot. Plus we played diverging strategies a lot, which is always interesting. Thanks for the games!
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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2014, 08:35:30 pm »
0

a few comments on those games:

game 1:
i really feel like getting 1 or 2 Horsetraders and then a few silvers golds until you can buy GM's
and trashing your estates and coppers to your opponents bishops  (that will probably lead to a ~7/3 GM split on average)
and then going into bishops should beat both of your strategies easily.
Maybe a pseudo Golden Deck buying 2 Provinces and trashing them to bishops every turn as the lategame plan?
(or maybe just one or two platinums into buying colonies)

game 3:
very well played.

game 5:
I think Duchy Duke is the clear way to go. I really like Smugglers for that, i even think it's a must buy in the mirror. Open Smugglers/Courtyard and try to rush the Duchies that way maybe? I feel like Remake is a little too slow for a Duchy Duke mirror.

game 6:
 I feel like your were both misplaying this one. Seriously Buying Gold + Curse over Silver when you dont plan to get rid of the curse? That's like Buying a Silver  and a Copper and getting a negative VP token on top.
I would have gone into Explorer BM right away skipping all other actions and start picking up Mandarins at good opportunities in the mid- and late-game. Maybe Remake BM is about as strong as Explorer BM i think those two strategies are pretty close.

Congrats Titandrake and maybe we'll see each other in the playoffs :)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 08:42:17 pm by MarkowKette »
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KingZog3

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2014, 11:18:29 pm »
+1

Here are my games against Max_D (MJD on goko). I didnt post the last 2 rounds because I lost pretty badly and was busy (mostly because I played terribly though). My opponents might have posted them. Anyway, I won against Max_D 3-1, but he played well and the last one was close.


Game 1: 1-0

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140409/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1397096405511.txt



Code: [Select]
Herbalist, Moat, Develop, Forager, Steward, Familiar, Feast, Golem, Treasury, Upgrade
An interesting Golem Engine. It's the only +actions, but Familiar means there a consolation prize if you miss $4P. Familiar isn't great because trashing is pretty good, but still worth the pickup if nothing else is worth while. I only get 1, but Max_D gets 2 which I think is a mistake. He also didn't get enough action cards, probably because he was too focused on cursing me. Moat saved me too, blocking double cursing turns twice. Treasuries helped a lot too.


Game 2:

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140409/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1397097680338.txt



Code: [Select]
Apothecary, Ambassador, Lookout, Wishing Well, Envoy, Nomad Camp, Pirate Ship, Sea Hag, Margrave, Merchant Ship
Sea Hag is clearly a no go here. I open ambassador, get rid of my Estates but then change my mind and go for an Aporthecary/Wishing Well deck with 1 Margrave for attack and buys. He goes Margrave BM, mostly because he opened 5/2 (which is much worse here). Max_D also misclicked buying the Lookout. He meant to buy Ambassador. But my deck being able to attack every turn really hurts BM, plus he had 5 Estates in his deck.


Game 3:

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140409/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1397098640055.txt



Code: [Select]
Vineyard, Loan, Village, Woodcutter, Farming Village, Militia, Spy, Talisman, Throne Room, Baker
Vineyards. It is a Colony game which is why Max_D didnt go for Vineyards, but the yards pull through and steal the win. The board is just too good not tog for it, with lots of cantrips, +actions, TR, Talisman and Militia to attack. I get all 8 Vineyards and pump them up to a whopping 12VP each. It was very close and Max_D did misplay at the end, not realizing only 2 piles were empty when he bought the last Woodcutter. Not sure it mattered much because 1 turn later I would have ended it, but if he had drawn $11 I couldn't have, so yeah it would have been his only chance to pull out a win. Still, this a fun game to play, for me anyway.

Thanks for the games Max_D (or MJD on goko). They were fun and seriously, you aren't as bad as you probably think you are. You didn't open Pirate Ship, and that's something many high ranked players still can't understand is a bad thing to do.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 11:22:34 pm by KingZog3 »
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Titandrake

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2014, 12:16:03 am »
0

game 5:
I think Duchy Duke is the clear way to go. I really like Smugglers for that, i even think it's a must buy in the mirror. Open Smugglers/Courtyard and try to rush the Duchies that way maybe? I feel like Remake is a little too slow for a Duchy Duke mirror.

game 6:
 I feel like your were both misplaying this one. Seriously Buying Gold + Curse over Silver when you dont plan to get rid of the curse? That's like Buying a Silver  and a Copper and getting a negative VP token on top.
I would have gone into Explorer BM right away skipping all other actions and start picking up Mandarins at good opportunities in the mid- and late-game. Maybe Remake BM is about as strong as Explorer BM i think those two strategies are pretty close.

On game 5, I don't think Smugglers/Courtyard is consistent enough to get $5 on its own, but it might be a good reply to Storeroom. In the ideal situation, Smugglers gives you a Duchy without costing you a Duchy, and I feel like that's not going to happen often enough. But I could be wrong on this, I was acting more off me going Smugglers to win Duchy split before and having it backfire horribly. I also wasn't sure if Psyduck was going for Duchy/Duke.

On game 6, I still think the first embargoed gold is good. It's only one Curse, it's not too bad, and it's absolutely not like Silver + Copper because having a Gold lets you hit high value cards more easily. Usually, 1 Gold > 2 Silvers in BM, in that you buy a Gold on $6 and 2 buys instead of 2 silvers, so Gold + Curse should beat Silver + Copper. If you mean, buy an Explorer or Mandarin instead, then that's a valid point. I think that I shouldn't have bought Nomad Camp, since it was basically a terminal silver for no reason.

Most of the Mandarin buys I make are for the topdeck. If I don't think the topdeck is worth it, then I bought Explorer. So for instance, my T4 buy was Mandarin because I'd seen all my Estates, so I knew that I would get a Gold by using the topdeck.
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DG

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2014, 06:03:33 am »
0

 
Quote
Usually, 1 Gold > 2 Silvers in BM, in that you buy a Gold on $6 and 2 buys instead of 2 silvers, so Gold + Curse should beat Silver + Copper.

gold > gold+copper > silver+silver  > silver > gold+ruin > silver+copper > gold+curse.
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EgorK

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2014, 06:33:38 am »
0

EgorK - hsiale 3-0

Game 1. EgorK - hsiale 34:32

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140410/log.50893139a2e67cff211cd7e5.1397124097469.txt



Code: [Select]
Fool's Gold, Trade Route, Woodcutter, Feodum, Militia, Nomad Camp, Graverobber, Mountebank, Adventurer, King's Court
Weird game with FG, Nomad Camp and Mountebank. Because of Mountebank I decided to use FG as reactions as they would not line up anyway. Both our decks do not seem to have direction with some random trade routes, king's courts and graverobbers. In the end I probably get more lucky (well, that is theme of whole match)

Game 2. hsiale - EgorK 27:30

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140410/log.50893139a2e67cff211cd7e5.1397124488601.txt



Code: [Select]
Haven, Moat, Doctor, Storeroom, Wishing Well, Woodcutter, Coppersmith, Rats, Jester, Hunting Grounds
Seems like nothing more interesting than Jester-BM. My copper saved on haven decides the game after my opponent breaks PPR

Game 3. hsiale - EgorK hsiale resigns

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140410/log.50893139a2e67cff211cd7e5.1397125033379.txt



Code: [Select]
Pawn, Swindler, Village, Ironworks, Taxman, Young Witch, Baker, Mint, Altar, Nobles, Bank
This game puzzles me. We both start with thin decks because of both Baker and Mint on the board. I go for bakers and YW and somehow my opponent's deck just fell apart despite the fact that I hadn't played very focused either.

hsiale, thanks for the game and I hope you would have more luck in Dominion League as in this match you defenately lack luck
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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2014, 07:54:30 am »
0

game 5:
I think Duchy Duke is the clear way to go. I really like Smugglers for that, i even think it's a must buy in the mirror. Open Smugglers/Courtyard and try to rush the Duchies that way maybe? I feel like Remake is a little too slow for a Duchy Duke mirror.

game 6:
 I feel like your were both misplaying this one. Seriously Buying Gold + Curse over Silver when you dont plan to get rid of the curse? That's like Buying a Silver  and a Copper and getting a negative VP token on top.
I would have gone into Explorer BM right away skipping all other actions and start picking up Mandarins at good opportunities in the mid- and late-game. Maybe Remake BM is about as strong as Explorer BM i think those two strategies are pretty close.

On game 5, I don't think Smugglers/Courtyard is consistent enough to get $5 on its own, but it might be a good reply to Storeroom. In the ideal situation, Smugglers gives you a Duchy without costing you a Duchy, and I feel like that's not going to happen often enough. But I could be wrong on this, I was acting more off me going Smugglers to win Duchy split before and having it backfire horribly. I also wasn't sure if Psyduck was going for Duchy/Duke.

On game 6, I still think the first embargoed gold is good. It's only one Curse, it's not too bad, and it's absolutely not like Silver + Copper because having a Gold lets you hit high value cards more easily. Usually, 1 Gold > 2 Silvers in BM, in that you buy a Gold on $6 and 2 buys instead of 2 silvers, so Gold + Curse should beat Silver + Copper. If you mean, buy an Explorer or Mandarin instead, then that's a valid point. I think that I shouldn't have bought Nomad Camp, since it was basically a terminal silver for no reason.

Most of the Mandarin buys I make are for the topdeck. If I don't think the topdeck is worth it, then I bought Explorer. So for instance, my T4 buy was Mandarin because I'd seen all my Estates, so I knew that I would get a Gold by using the topdeck.

well first of all:
You don't go for Smugglers to get double Duchy turns. At least not early.
Your get the Smugglers because your opponent will hit 5 very often, so Smugglers play gives you a Duchy and you can still usually buy like a Silver on the same turn. And even when you are unlucky and your opponent didn't get a Duchy on your smugglers turn that is usually a turn where you get double silver instead of his one. (or maybe silver/storeroom which at that point should also totally be worth it). And courtyard is pretty good for Duchy/Duke aswell as you can often split your money between your hand exactly like you want so you can arrange $5 on nearly every hand quite easily once you got some silvers. The smugglers will probably not get you ahead on the Duchy split but it certainly usually doesn't put you behind on it. And with the extra cards (Silvers, maybe another CY, or a storeroom ) you have at that time compared to your opponent you have a really big advantage in the race to the Dukes.

The T4 Mandarin would not be a mistake if you didn't already have Nomad Camp as a terminal i feel.
Buying a Mandarin so early to ensure a Gold for the next turn is something you only want to do if you also really want a Mandarin in your deck. So i think a deck with 2 Mandarins +another(madarin/explorer) and only treasures beside that is pretty good. But as you will probably get a few Mandarins in the mid game at good opportunities anyway you usually don't already want 2 or 3 terminals that early.

yes you are right that Gold + ruined village is better than Silver+ copper it adds the same money density but the higher diversity is slightly better for getting to provinces at the time you need it. But only slightly! The chances of this being the difference between a ($8  +  $3 turn) and a ($7 + $4 turn) are lower than the chances of cases where it doesn't matter or even is better the other way round like (6/4) instead of (5/5). I's an advantage but a marginal one. The advantage of Silver over Silver+ Copper is already a bigger one. And the one minus vp is also a bigger deal than that.

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TheMirrorMan

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2014, 09:03:20 am »
+2

"He who begins, wins!"

TheMirrorMan - Breezy : 3 - 3

Yeah it is over. The last straw has been pulled. And it ended with an acceptable result for both Breezy as myself - we agreed on that. We are both around the same level, so no more fair than this. We weren't that focussed anymore either - nothing at stake for us.



Game 1 : "Stonehenge" - Breezy begins + wins.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140409/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1397039409623.txt



Code: [Select]
Embargo, Pearl Diver, Vagrant, Cutpurse, Gardens, Spy, Cultist, Market, Rogue, Harem
Probably the most interesting game of the lot.

Of course you see the quarrel - Cultist vs. Gardens. We both open Silver/cutpurse in order to get as quickly to $5 as possible. Then a surprise : his turn 3 is a Market! Ok that signals going for Gardens. Fine, I don't believe in it and take a cultist. And maybe I can snatch a few Gardens myself, that should work, no ?

I get snowballed quite quickly - he stocks up on Markets, picks up the gardens on the way and adds some extra coppers/estates to get his card count up. I mix up my strategies way too much (at one point I even DON'T play my cultist). I lose badly.

Now the only thing I'm wondering here is ... Is cultist really that bad against gardens or did I misplay this horribly? Comments welcome.



Game 2 : "Fool me once ..." - TheMirrorMan begins + wins.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140409/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1397039905001.txt



Code: [Select]
Fool's Gold, Lighthouse, Apothecary, Oracle, Salvager, Smithy, Bandit Camp, Butcher, Cartographer, Trading Post
Sometimes 3/4 or 4/3 is important to not show too much strategy. I'm starting with $4, buy Salvager. He starts with $3 and buys silver. Then $3, I buy FG ... Breezy realizes, takes a Salvager, but is trailing all the way. First player, not much to say here. He tries to do some Shenanigans with FG > Gold, then salvage the gold ... But my 6 FG vs. his 4 is just too much.



Game 3 : "Trash and swap and trash and swap ..." - TheMirrorMan begins + wins.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140409/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1397040691186.txt



Code: [Select]
Embargo, Herbalist, Wishing Well, Workshop, Pirate Ship, Quarry, Cache, Haggler, Junk Dealer, Minion
Again, not much to say here, it's a minion board, and I'm first. Bit surprised however, I open Silver/Quarry, he opens WW/Quarry. Okay, yeah, It's more interesting if you want to get your Minions out of the deck. But in essence, it's no more than a Silver here. So I like my opening better. And you REALLY want those Minions.

Well, it's pick up the junk dealer first, then the minions (win it 6 to 4) and then swap and trash. The extra 2 minions pay off.

Interesting to see that in the end Breezy had 2 gold in his deck and I had ONE copper :)



Game 4 : "Welcome to the jungle" : Breezy begins + wins.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140409/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1397041483837.txt



Code: [Select]
Great Hall, Menagerie, Oracle, Armory, Monument, Talisman, Trader, City, Grand Market, Forge
Not the most interesting board. No real engine (City + Oracle ?), No early money actions except Monument, no early trashing. Hmmm.

We both open Monument, yet he takes a menagerie, I take a silver. I don't understand what he's doing here, but it seems to work out in the end. He picks up all sorts of cards : armory, Great Hall, forge, more monuments ... I get to forge quicker, but then probably do too much senseless forging (a lot of those GMs could have been golds ...). He pops over me in the last turn with 3 points.



Game 5 : Going in circles - TheMirrorMan begins + wins.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140409/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1397042226459.txt



Code: [Select]
Chapel, Great Hall, Masquerade, Trade Route, Caravan, Conspirator, Mining Village, Trader, Baker, Cultist
Baker on the board - coin token in. It's a basic, but trappy board. Cultist is possible, but not viable with both chapel and masquerade on the board I think. The conspirator is screaming for an engine. We both decide not to use the cointoken, I open Caravan/Masq, he opens Caravan/Chapel.

I believe chapel is a trap because of two reasons :

1) you're not going to get quickly enough to the $4 caravans/conspirators
2) Masquerade counters it - trash down too much, you can hand over your better cards to me ...

Hence my decision. I think the log shows that my assessment was correct.



Game 6 : "Let's go dip in the Steward's Horse Traders Market Square Pool" - Breezy begins, Breezy wins.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140410/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1397125754361.txt



Code: [Select]
Embargo, Pearl Diver, Scrying Pool, Market Square, Steward, Cutpurse, Horse Traders, Smithy, Witch, Expand
Sorry, my inspiration ran dry. The trashing/actions (Market Square) are central here. Conclusion for both of us : Potion + Steward. Problem is I'm getting Potion + 2 coins + Steward a few times, which really is not what you want. Can't trash stuff well enough, so I stock up on SPs. I get a Witch inbetween which is really a bad call, given the trashing possibilities.
However, Breezy pulls out a nice one which I didn't understand in the beginning. He buys a few horse traders. Well, me attacking him with his SP causes two things :

1) I most probably put back a bad card
2) He gets that bad card in hand but he doesn't mind - he can probably trash it with SP/Steward.

I feel outplayed in this match and rightfully so. Nice work Breezy.



Well it's over. I'm happy with my 3,5/7 (compared to 2/7 in GokoDom II). Thank you Kirian for organizing!!!
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Psyduck

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2014, 04:21:22 pm »
0

Some comments on my match vs. Titandrake:

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140409/log.505f5ec4a2e6714a97eee844.1397069699823.txt
Crossroads, Trade Route, Philosopher's Stone, Bishop, Bureaucrat, Horse Traders, Duke, Tribute, Farmland, Grand Market

I decide on HT-Duke, then switch my mind on turn 4. I don't remember much besides that, don't know how I managed to win, or what was going on. Just, whatever, forget this game. What I do remember is that on my last turn, I have a 50/50 shot of winning vs losing, in that it all depends on if I draw a victory card or not. I don't, so I win.

I really feel that Bishop/GM is the way to go here. Maybe there is even a faster way to get GMs utilizing opponent's Bishops, as MarkowKette pointed out, but HT/Duke should lose here. So I go for Bishop/GM, while he starts HT and after a few turns switches gears. That should allow me to easily win the GM split, right? Well, we split 5-5.  My deck should be thinner though and I should still be able to win it. But actually his deck is thin first and he manages to get a huge lead and take the game.
Probably my golden deck-like approach was not so good here in presence of Crossroads, and maybe I got one or two Bishos too much. Still very unhappy about this game. :/


http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140409/log.505f5ec4a2e6714a97eee844.1397073385204.txt
Fool's Gold, Tunnel, Philosopher's Stone, Coppersmith, Ironmonger, Taxman, Baker, Margrave, Soothsayer, Bank

Margrave-Fool's Gold, I buy a Soothsayer, always draw it dead, and it costs me so many Provinces. Psyduck wins pretty easily.

Don't have much to add. The Soothsayer was quite significant, so even though my Margraves met at the bottom of the shuffle, I didn't get into bigger problems.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140409/log.505f5ec4a2e6714a97eee844.1397074660040.txt
Vineyard, Moat, Oracle, Sage, Advisor, Conspirator, Ironmonger, Smithy, Apprentice, Haggler

No +Buy, but Haggler gives you ways to gain actions. I get an early $5 for Haggler, then start using Haggler to gain Apprentice and Ironmongers and Conspirators. My deck starts up faster, and Apprentice trashes out most of my starting cards. Psyduck doesn't get Apprentice until later, and by then it was too late.

Titandrake's early Haggler was huge, while I couldn't get to $5 until turn 6. I also ignored Apprentices far too long, and in the end didn't have a chance. Very well played by Titandrake I think.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140409/log.505f5ec4a2e6714a97eee844.1397076013129.txt
Transmute, University, Fortress, Ironmonger, Salvager, Taxman, Embassy, Royal Seal, Adventurer, Border Village

Salvager + Border Village + Fortress is a nice setup. I misplay, buying a Fortress on T3 which should have been Embassy. Psyduck wins the BV split and gets the win with the better engine. Need to remember to buy the cards, then buy the payload.

My best game in the series, maybe even the only good one. Although my Embassies appear three times without any village in hand, I can build up to a nice draw engine with Salvager/Fortress as payload.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140409/log.505f5ec4a2e6714a97eee844.1397077965776.txt
Courtyard, Haven, Doctor, Smugglers, Storeroom, Trade Route, Advisor, Plaza, Remake, Duke

Really interesting board. Courtyard isn't the best card draw, but you have the trashing, the actions, and the +Buy. I decide on Storeroom/Silver into Duchy Duke. Psyduck opens Remake/Smugglers, with the plan of Smuggling away some Duchies, then Remaking them into Gold and playing the engine. We split Duchies 4-4, which is really bad for me, so I decide I need to end ASAP and start running out the Dukes and Estates. It helps that Trade Route is amazing at this point. I'm not sure which strategy is better: I feel like the engine should be able to get enough Provinces in time, but I'm not sure, and if the Duke player gets 5 Duchies, they win. Overall though, I think I played the Duke deck right.

Please don't look at this game. If you still do, don't try that at home. I played so badly. :-[
I don't know what I'm doing here. Smuggling Duchies, then remaking them into Golds and play an engine that buys all Provinces and at the same time denies the Duke player enough points seems not all that likely. And it's entirely impossible if you don't have a good plan. Just going for Dukes myself would have been better and much easier. Note to myself: Don't try fancy stuff in tournaments if there is a strong and easy alternative. Completely messed this game up.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140409/log.505f5ec4a2e6714a97eee844.1397079050572.txt
Beggar, Embargo, Village, Moneylender, Nomad Camp, Remake, Explorer, Graverobber, Horn of Plenty, Mandarin

You know your board is slow when the best deck looks like Mandarin-BM. Psyduck has 5-2, Embargoes Gold and plans to use Remake to trash Mandarins and other $5 costs into Gold. Turns out that this is far too fancy and loses to Mandarin and Explorer.

Now here I get 5/2, start with Mandarin and can put an Embargo on Gold just before Titandrake hits $6 for the first time. Game over? Not if you plan to buy more Mandarins to remake them into Golds. If I play plain BM with 2-3 Mandarins I should win this.


I really feel a bit sad about that match, clearly my worst performance in this tournament. At least the first and the last game I should have been able to win with better play, maybe also that Duke game. It seems this cost me a spot in the top 16, but at least Titandrake can make it to the next round.

I'd like to say thank you to Titandrake for your patience while Goko kept kicking me out of our games. Good luck for the next rounds, I'll cheer for you. :)
Also thanks for Kirian and anyone else involved in organizing this event. It's been a pleasure to participate.
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Titandrake

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2014, 12:40:52 am »
0

When it finishes uploading and processing, you can watch the entire set at

I edited out the typing on my turn, although in retrospect I should probably have edited down some of Psyduck's later turns as well. Also edited out the DCs. It works out to 2.5 hours worth though, so expect it to take 5-6 hours before you can watch it.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2014, 10:32:50 am »
0



Code: [Select]
Transmute, Chapel, Menagerie, Oasis, Workshop, Moneylender, Worker's Village, Harvest, Highway, Junk Dealer

Chapel Silver seems good here. You want a small deck that plays WV and Highway a lot. Workshop can gain with Highway, so really you only need to hit $5 once and then your deck should just snowball into awesomeness.
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Monsieur X

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2014, 03:43:36 pm »
+1



Code: [Select]
Transmute, Chapel, Menagerie, Oasis, Workshop, Moneylender, Worker's Village, Harvest, Highway, Junk Dealer

Chapel Silver seems good here. You want a small deck that plays WV and Highway a lot. Workshop can gain with Highway, so really you only need to hit $5 once and then your deck should just snowball into awesomeness.

I think gamesou noticed that. They both played this strategy (small deck and highway wv) but opening diferently
I prefer your idea gamesou. Chapel is perfect trasher, but moneylender gave you early junkdealer, and cycling with oasis can help to trash fast and buy frecuently 5 or 4.
I wouldnt say you had more luck than Marin (having 5 and 3 on turns 3 and 4 seems honest vs  chapel estate*2 copper*2 ). Before turn 6  really dont see luck and on turn 6 seeing what you have in your deck i understand your victory.
 (more easy to see it with this link  http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140410/log.516d321ae4b082c74d7b345d.1397159851724.txt )


Honestly, when i saw your kingdom, i thougth i would have taken chapel/worshop. But next seeing your log, i think your idea was better


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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2014, 08:19:26 pm »
+1

Chapel Silver seems good here. You want a small deck that plays WV and Highway a lot. Workshop can gain with Highway, so really you only need to hit $5 once and then your deck should just snowball into awesomeness.

Chapel/Moneylender is better. Silver is a bad card, just a necessity to get to $5, which you will not if it collides with Chapel. Moneylender is thus equivalent to Silver, but speeds up trashing, which is key.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2014, 07:52:37 am »
0

This week's games against PitrPicko were some of the most fun games I've had in a long time. The second and third are unfortunately slightly one-sided, but the first is very interesting, and we follow different strategies each time.  There was also some great strategic discussion in between matches.



Code: [Select]
Beggar, Wishing Well, Baron, Feast, Counterfeit, Counting House, Horn of Plenty, Knights, Goons, Possessionhttp://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140408/log.506872f90cf2795d403d3f0a.1396981414863.txt

Goons, but no villages.  Knights. Counterfeit.

My first two $5+'s go on Knights, as I get to take Sir Bailey (cantrip) and Dame Molly (village).  After that it's Goons, Counterfeit and Wishing Well, with heavy Copper buying.

My turn 19 is perhaps most entertaining:

Code: [Select]
qmech plays Goons
qmech plays Counterfeit, Counterfeit, Counterfeit, Copper
qmech buys Goons, Wishing Well, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper
qmech receives 7 victory point chips

PitrPicko gets fairly heavily into Beggars (19 Silvers at the end of the game), which are a splendid defence against Knights, but make it very difficult to hit $8 under constant Goons'ing.  The game is still very close: I take the lead and end it on piles in the same turn.

It's a real shame that the trash pile is not visible in the log.  Suffice it to say that it was very, very large.

Goons/Counterfeit (without villages) is tremendously appealing, but it's exceedingly slow, and the board might need to be otherwise weak to make it interesting.  I'd be glad to hear people's thoughts on that.



Code: [Select]
Transmute, Lighthouse, Apothecary, Smugglers, Urchin, Workshop, Caravan, Band of Misfits, Soothsayer, Possessionhttp://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140408/log.506872f90cf2795d403d3f0a.1396982453441.txt

I get an exceptionally useful 5/2 (Lighthouse/Soothsayer) and keep up rolling Lighthouse coverage through much of the game.  PitrPicko goes hard Apothecary, which doesn't really do anything here.



Code: [Select]
Hamlet, Native Village, Stonemason, Doctor, Woodcutter, Horse Traders, Sea Hag, Knights, Tactician, Fairgroundshttp://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140408/log.506872f90cf2795d403d3f0a.1396983401655.txt

PitrPicko hits 5/2 just when he doesn't want it, and makes the brave decision to skip Sea Hag.  I get two (expecting them to die to Knights).  Dame Anna (trash) offers a ray of hope, but has the bad luck to instantly run into Sir Destry.

We're both clearly building up to Fairgrounds, but, weirdly, none ever get bought.  PitrPicko explains that he has so many Tacticians to get a chance at hitting $6 with 8 Curses.  This speaks clearly of desperation, and makes me feel incredibly mean.
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2014, 12:43:43 pm »
+2

soulnet 3 - 1 jaybeez

For what is surely the last game for one of us (both with 8 points before this match) and possibly for the winner as well (or surely both if we tied), the kingdom maker god gave us interesting boards to work with. Just one money game, and it had interesting decisions at $5.

@AdamH, the first game is made for your JoaT article.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140412/log.505e9c9c0cf2ef979299a7c0.1397317303406.txt
Code: [Select]
Village, Wishing Well, Farming Village, JackOfAllTrades, Band of Misfits, Catacombs, Council Room, Market, Treasury, TributeThis is definitely engine. Catacombs is great draw and there are plenty of Villages, with Jack to take care of some trashing and produce all the economy. I get WW instead of Silver to open. It is mostly as good at the start (less reliable economy, but extra cycling) and way better later to connect pieces. We pound on Villages first and draw later. I get Council Room for the +Buy and huge draw, because it is not as bad to give him free card early while he is still playing Jack's draw to 5. He gets Market for the +Buy instead, which I think is a mistake. He told me at the end had pretty bad luck connecting Village and draw, and is probably true, given that the difference is way too high for a mirror. I still think I took a bit better decisions, but probably not enough to justify the easy win. I even mistakenly trash Council Room instead of playing it (bought a new one right after, which would have been a Province turn, possibly Province+Village) and still cruised to victory due to having a big advantage at the moment.
1-0


http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140412/log.505e9c9c0cf2ef979299a7c0.1397318352852.txt
Code: [Select]
Ironmonger, Tournament, Catacombs, Council Room, Festival, Merchant Ship, Rabble, Royal Seal, Adventurer, ExpandAnother clearly engine board, with Tournament, which pushes engine to connect. No trashing or good Attacks (Rabble is too slow, and Ironmonger counters it), so it is a race to Followers. He gets it first, but I more or less hold my ground with Trusty Steed. He mistakenly breaks PPR but I only get to $7 and am stuck with Duchy+Estate and he has enough for the last Province and the game. My afterthought is that he needed more draw, and my early Expand was an unnecesary gamble (may give early Province, but building the engine is probably more important). If someone cares to comment, I think this is the game to do it.
1-1

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140412/log.505e9c9c0cf2ef979299a7c0.1397318955833.txt
Code: [Select]
Herbalist, Pawn, Great Hall, Storeroom, Counterfeit, Margrave, Merchant Guild, Mint, Tribute, ForgeThe only BM game, because there are no Villages. We both open double Silver, and then more or less mirror, getting Margrave, lucky Mints with 5 Coppers, and then he gets Counterfeit and I get early Gold. He gets luckier with the Attack at the beginning, but I dive into Duchies early because I have a good number of Silvers and a Gold, minus 5 Coppers, so I think being second player I can put some presure. He gets ahead on Provinces, but I get an advantage with the Duchies. He is forced breaking PPR and we stall a bit exchanging Duchies, until I get an extremely lucky draw and can buy the last Province after Margrave Attack thanks to having my only two Golds in hand plus a Silver. I think saving all the luck for endgame was the right call :). Also, I think we each were lucky in one of the first two games, but this is by far the most significant.
2-1

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140412/log.505e9c9c0cf2ef979299a7c0.1397319758382.txt
Code: [Select]
Candlestick Maker, Moat, Watchtower, Death Cart, Tournament, Treasure Map, Catacombs, Festival, Rabble, WharfTournament again, and another engine with Catacombs, although there is also the best drawer in the game: Wharf. I go heavily for Wharves first, and he goes for more Villages early. He gets to Followers first here too, but I have more Wharves to support greening and the discarding Attack is not terrible, so Trusty Steed may very well be superior here (I would probably would have gotten Followers myself as well, this is an afterthought). He has too many Candlestick Makers, which are not as good in the end when you need to clinch points instead of hoarding, and my Silvers are better for that, which give me the edge. It was really close, though.
3-1

Thanks for the games jaybeez. Also, can someone tell me if there is chance that I get into the playoffs? I do not get the tiebreakers very well, but being on the bottom half of the people with 8 points in the round 6 standings has to be pretty bad, right?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 04:08:11 pm by soulnet »
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pst

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2014, 03:39:10 pm »
0

pst 3 vs. 17and3buys 0

Game 1: Candlestick Maker, Chapel, Duchess, Scrying Pool, Market Square, Alchemist, Advisor, Apprentice, Cache, Fairgrounds.

Openings: Potion/Chapel vs. Market Square/Chapel.

Game 2: Stonemason, Smugglers, Tunnel, Workshop, Baron, Feodum, Scout, Festival, Highway, Saboteur.

Openings: Highway/ vs. Silver/Silver.
Close game where I once was lucky to be able to smuggle a Province.

Game 3: Crossroads, Fool's Gold, Doctor, Menagerie, Shanty Town, Wishing Well, Bureaucrat, Plaza, Butcher, Altar. Shelters.

Openings: Doctor for 4, trashing a Copper/Fool's Gold vs. Plaza/Silver.

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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2014, 03:41:10 pm »
+1

Smartie (Chan Kuan Rong) beats and knocks me out of finals contention! Which is a shame, because I was so close, just like last year!

It was hard to be too upset, though. They were very great games. I think he got a bit luckier than me, overall, but not a LOT luckier. And he definitely outplayed me in the last game and deserved to win.

Anyway, wish I could post the logs! There was some Salvager error and I didn't get them.
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2014, 04:08:53 pm »
0

Goko log search is back, so I already posted the logs of my match against jaybeez (see above).
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amalloy

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2014, 05:38:57 pm »
+1

Also, can someone tell me if there is chance that I get into the playoffs? I do not get the tiebreakers very well, but being on the bottom half of the people with 8 points in the round 6 standings has to be pretty bad, right?

There are (roughly, I haven't done a detailed analysis) 8 players guaranteed to finish ahead of you, 6 who will beat you if they win or tie, and 9 who need a win to stay ahead. Assuming they're all playing each other (probably not quite true, but close), I'd say you have a decent chance of making it. In the best case, 3 of the 6 play each other with no ties, and all 9 of the others get a tie in their match: you could qualify as high as 12th. Unlikely as that result is, you absolutely have a shot at getting in.
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Smartie

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2014, 12:06:50 pm »
0

Thanks amalloy, that was really helpful of you! :) Will comment on it tomorrow when I can squeeze in some time! And yes, the games played were really awesome! Totally enjoyed the thrill  :P
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2014, 12:38:42 pm »
+1

faust vs Jimmmmm

Game 1 Jimmmmm wins



Code: [Select]
Vineyard, Great Hall, Sage, Shanty Town, Urchin, Baron, Fortress, Moneylender, Treasure Map, Witch
The key cards in the first match are obvious: Vineyard and Urchin/Mercenary, supported by Baron (for +buy) and Fortress. Our strategies diverge in only one point: Do you want a Witch or not? I think no, because it gives the opponent's Mercenaries fodder. Jimmmmm goes for it, and I'm still not sure what's the better move here. In the end, I think I'm behind even though I'm ahead (no VP counter), and trash a Province in a desperate attempt to get to the win (there's only one Estate left for the three-pile), and I lose (looking at Jimmmm's next hand, I guess I would have won otherwise).

Game 2 faust wins



Code: [Select]
Embargo, Smugglers, Conspirator, Treasure Map, Library, Minion, Mountebank, Rebuild, Soothsayer, Fairgrounds
A Rebuild game, but one of the more interesting ones. Just Rebuild isn't enough, there's Mountebank, Minion and Smugglers which all go well with Rebuild games. There's also Fairgrounds as a viable source of Alt-VP, and a compensation if you lose the Duchy split. In the end, I think what helped me here was getting the Smugglers in the first shuffle over a Silver (I take this more risky approach because I'm second player). It also felt as if I was having more luck with my Smuggling.

Game 3 Jimmmmm wins



Code: [Select]
Cellar, Haven, Oasis, Warehouse, Throne Room, Treasure Map, Butcher, Harvest, Highway, Fairgrounds
Key cards: Warehouse, Treasure Map, Butcher. Butcher is just so good for BM, and Treasure Map/Warehouse is a decent BM enabler. I think Jimmmmm's 5/2 opening is superior to my 4/3 here, he gets the Butcher first and then collides his Treasure Maps before me. From there, I pretty much never have a shot at winning this.

Game 4 faust wins



Code: [Select]
Doctor, Fishing Village, Forager, Loan, Oasis, Warehouse, Treasure Map, Butcher, Ghost Ship, Mountebank
Interestingly, this game has the same Warehouse/Butcher/Treasure Map combo as the previous one, but it's no longer as dominant. While my opponent goes for it again, I opt for the engine with a double Forager opening Ghost Ship is just such a strong counter to BM, and Forager helps me get rid of the junk from the Mountebanks. Jimmmmm tries to go for the engine as well after his Treasure Maps collided, but it's already too late, and I hit him with Ghost Ships almost every turn. When I can, I end the game on piles.

Game 5 faust wins



Code: [Select]
Duchess, Stonemason, Apothecary, Fortune Teller, Lookout, Nomad Camp, Sea Hag, Cartographer, Merchant Ship, Goons
The Sea Hag/Lookout opening is pretty obvious here (I wondered, could the Hag actually be skippable here?), but from there, we go different routes. Jimmmmm tries a more BM-y approach with Cartographers, I choose the Apothecary deck. Stonemason helps me get those Apothecaries faster, but the game is quite tense for a long time. In the end, I feel confident enough to focus on running piles out rather than getting more points, and it works.

Game 6 faust wins



Code: [Select]
Fool's Gold, Sage, Bishop, Death Cart, Mining Village, Navigator, Ghost Ship, Horn of Plenty, Hunting Grounds, Nobles
The last game just screams for a Horn of Plenty megaturn. Jimmmmm goes for Fool's Golds, but I decide that with lack of +buy and Colonies, they should be skippable here. I am a little terrified when he starts amassing Platina, but then my engine gets running. Maybe I could have gotten a Bishop for trashing earlier, but I was afraidof helping his strategy. In the end, what I did worked well enough.

Thanks for the games, Jimmmm! The match was really tense most of the time, as I felt a game deciding who might make it to the playoffs should be.
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michaeljb

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2014, 05:41:22 pm »
+2

Game 1 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140413/log.50a6c1abe4b03214bb7822e9.1397421612849.txt



Code: [Select]
Philosopher's Stone, Death Cart, Ironmonger, Remodel, Throne Room, Duke, Knights, Mandarin, Minion, Tribute
An early Remodel lets me turn Shelters into Silvers, and I even get a lucky hand in which I remodel Silver into Minion and buy another Minion. Other than that it's a couple Treasures, Ironmongers and green for me. DG also grabbed some Throne Rooms and Sir Vander, which takes out some minions and a Gold but it wasn't enough to slow me down after winning the Minion split. Josephine was the second available knight and went ignored for the game.
michaeljb 25 - 21 DG


Game 2 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140413/log.50a6c1abe4b03214bb7822e9.1397422486800.txt



Code: [Select]
Doctor, Monument, Quarry, Remodel, Spy, Thief, Wandering Minstrel, Worker's Village, Outpost, Hoard
In the chat, DG mentioned that there were some different marginal strategies here. He mainly went for BM with a couple Monuments, but I thought the Monument engine looked pretty good. I drew $6 on turn 3, buying Doctor and trashing 3 cards, getting my Monument playing machine off to a nice start. I did eventually get an Outpost; without draw it wasn't great, but the extra turns did usually help a little and definitely didn't hurt. DG got the early lead by buying Provinces, but it was just a matter of time before I could play lots of Monuments and buy green on a turn. In the end (22 turns), I was up on VP chips by 31-7, more than enough to clear DG's Province lead.
DG 50 - 58 michaeljb


Game 3 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140413/log.50a6c1abe4b03214bb7822e9.1397423196792.txt



Code: [Select]
Lighthouse, Pearl Diver, Masquerade, Storeroom, Horse Traders, Noble Brigand, Minion, Mystic, Royal Seal, Venture
Here I opened 5/2 to DG's 4/3, but after turn 3 we each had a Minion and Masquerade. DG took the Minion split this time, but I +buy cards earlier, producing a couple of $7 turns to get Minion+Lighthouse. Between Lighthouses and Horse Traders I was pretty well protected from Minion's discard, and even when it hit I still got decent turns. I think I overbought terminals, but perhaps that was mitigated by Storeroom and HT both being discard-for-coins, and by having Necropolis available. Despite losing the Minion split, I came out ahead and we chatted a bit about it since it seemed surprising, especially given the Minion split. I haven't combed through the log analyzing draws yet, but I suspect I did generally draw better. Probably the biggest actual decision we made differently in the game was with our first $3 hands: DG bought Silver (turn 1) and I bought Storeroom (turn 4).
DG 31 - 35 michaeljb

I'm super excited to be heading to the finals, a first for me!
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 05:44:00 pm by michaeljb »
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2014, 07:32:39 pm »
+1

Also, can someone tell me if there is chance that I get into the playoffs? I do not get the tiebreakers very well, but being on the bottom half of the people with 8 points in the round 6 standings has to be pretty bad, right?

To expand on this, soulnet, the chance of you being in the playoffs is close to 100%.

There are (roughly, I haven't done a detailed analysis) 8 players guaranteed to finish ahead of you, 6 who will beat you if they win or tie, and 9 who need a win to stay ahead. Assuming they're all playing each other (probably not quite true, but close), I'd say you have a decent chance of making it. In the best case, 3 of the 6 play each other with no ties, and all 9 of the others get a tie in their match: you could qualify as high as 12th. Unlikely as that result is, you absolutely have a shot at getting in.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2014, 11:20:04 pm »
+2

amalloy 3-1 Beyond Awesome

You can watch the full match on Twitch, or watch each game individually using the links included with each game in this writeup.


Game 1 Log Video



Code: [Select]
Apothecary, University, Fortune Teller, Swindler, Tunnel, Feodum, JackOfAllTrades, Moneylender, Jester, Journeyman
I try to build some kind of university/jack/journeyman thing, but really it's just a complete mess; a simple jack/bm crushes what either of us did. Eventually my opponent gets me with a surprise three-pile: I didn't think he was capable of emptying the University pile, but his Jester happens to hit my University. Best to say no more about this embarrassment of a game.

amalloy 0-1 Beyond Awesome


Game 2 Log Video



Code: [Select]
Nomad Camp, Thief, Bazaar, Count, Governor, Library, Mine, Stables, Tribute, Bank
We both decide to play Stables/Bank, with Nomad Camp for +buy. I lose the Stables split 6-4, but I get my two Banks earlier than he gets his one; I pick up a Governor for extra draw as well. We each get one double-Province turn, and the endgame is somewhat close, but I have initiative on greening and can stay ahead wire to wire.

amalloy 1-1 Beyond Awesome


Game 3 Log Video



Code: [Select]
Oasis, Bridge, Caravan, Coppersmith, Feodum, Mining Village, Salvager, Scout, Ill-Gotten Gains, Upgrade
The Bridge engine here is pretty marginal, with only Caravan for draw, but I was unable to find anything else very compelling and decided to go for it. I didn't quite understand what my opponent was doing until fairly late-game, but his Upgrade/Feodum thing seems to have worked out pretty well: he wound up with 15 Silvers and three Feoda, plus several Provinces. The endgame was very tense for me, especially because I wrongly believed he could pile out at any moment: his deck was too bloated for him to play multiple Upgrades. Finally I put together a Bridge megaturn on a nine-card starting hand, and can drain the Provinces and pick up enough Duchies to take the lead. If I had been less afraid of his imaginary three-pile, I could have ended this a couple turns earlier with a lot less stress.

amalloy 2-1 Beyond Awesome


Game 4 Log Video



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Woodcutter, Alchemist, Spy, Wandering Minstrel, Catacombs, Trading Post, Vault, Border Village, Hoard, Bank
I think there is an engine here, with Woodcutter, Minstrel, and Catacombs or Vault or something. But it will take a long time to get going, and Vault/Hoard/money is pretty darn fast, so I decide to just play money. My opponent also plays money/hoard, but he gets a 3-6 in the first shuffle, making Vault inconvenient for him. In the end, I have three Vaults and he has none, which puts me in a very strong position. As it happens I win by just an Estate, but I think that was even with some pretty poor shuffles from my deck - after the first shuffle I was always winning the long game.

amalloy 3-1 Beyond Awesome


Anyway, thanks for the match, Beyond Awesome. And thanks to my viewers: it was fun to read your commentary after the game. Sadly I don't think my tiebreaker is quite good enough to make the playoffs, but you never know, maybe one of the top 16 will disappear in suspicious circumstances. Either way, I'm quite pleased to have done as well as I did. Lastly, a big thanks to Kirian for running this whole thing again: Gokodom must be a lot of work, and it's a lot of fun to play in.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 01:26:13 am by amalloy »
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secret tunnel

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2014, 04:31:22 pm »
+1

I played a fun series of games with florrat. As we were sitting right on the cusp of the top 16, we knew we were probably playing for a seat in the next round.

Game 1: Maybe the most interesting game -- certainly the one I'm most interested to think more about. Key cards are Cultist and Ambassador, with Pawn, Procession, and Feodom playing interesting roles. Only source of extra actions come from Processing cantrips (or Madman). I open Pawn-Cultist, and am able to get three Cultists by turn 5, leading to an early ruins advantage, but florrat's persistent Ambassadoring mitigates somewhat. The wacky move along the way is Processing Cultists for +7 cards, even though there are no $6 actions. I pick up Hermits and Mint for silver, planning to go Feodom in a long slog. I manage to pull it out by 3-piling with a 1-point advantage in turn 32. Super weird game. I have no idea what the best strategy is.

Game 2: I underestimate Ironworks/Silk Road and get destroyed.

Game 3: Another incredibly close one. We both make the interesting choice to open Embargo/Mint. I think if I'd been in the first position, I wouldn't have tried that. There are some interesting Embargoings along the way -- florrat surprises me by blocking the virgin Silver pile, but I take one anyway, for something to Mint. I feel good to win the Tournament race and pick up Trusty Steed on turn 13, but florrat Schemes together a string of Followers plays that slow me down a lot after that. I'm lucky enough to be able to pick up the last Province for a 35-32 win.

Game 4: Torturer. Florrat builds a fairly conventional engine with Fortress and Torturer and a bit of help from Cellar; I see the lack of buys and skip the actions, buying lots of money and two Torturers. This proves the way to go in this one, as I build an early lead, buying Provinces on turns 7 and 11, not being afraid to accept more curses than I'd ordinarily like. I pick up some late Cartographers, although they end up making little difference. By the time florrat's able to buy Provinces, I've put this one away.

Thanks very much florrat for a fun series of games.

 
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florrat

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2014, 05:09:03 pm »
0

Yeah, the match between secret tunnel and me was very interesting.

Game 1: Very interesting game. We are both pretty much forces to play Cultist (secret tunnel) vs Ambassador (florrat) in some sort of ultra-slog. We eventually clear out ruins a bit with Procession, and secret tunnel uses Madman for a big Mint buy. secret tunnel transitions to Feodum, gaining Silvers with Hermit, while I try to build up to Provinces. secret tunnel manages to get a win on 1 point after 32 turns.

Game 2: What secret tunnel said: Ironworks/Silk Road is too strong here to ignore.

Game 3: We both open Embargo/Mint transitioning to Tournaments. We both weren't that fast, so maybe just going for Tournaments directly was better. secret tunnel manages to connect Tournament + Province first, but takes Trusty Steed over Followers, which is a mistake, I think. I break PPR (Duchies were embargoed, and I could only get the same number of points as secret tunnel by buying Duchy), and lose.

Game 4: Another interesting game. I try Torturer + Fortress (with 1 Cellar, no +buy, no trashing except on Knights), while secret tunnel goes Torturer Big Money. I was too slow. Maybe I should've transitioned into Knights as well, hoping to pick up +buy or trashing that way.
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Smartie

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2014, 12:16:57 pm »
+1

Games against Robz888 were really exciting! I actually was so nervous that I keep telling myself not to make any mistakes... But the games were really interesting and although the strategies are kind of similar, slight differences in some decisions decided the fate of the outcome.

Game 1
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140412/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1397320082750.txt
This had different strategies, with Robz888 going for straight silvers whereas I went for caravan/silver. His decision allowed him to get 1 earlier witch before my shuffles, and I did feel like I might lose out to him in the curse split. Nonetheless, I stayed on my decision and eventually got 1 witch on the 2nd shuffle. He then went on to get 3 witches while I stayed on 2 witches, hoping that my caravans can compensate by increasing the shuffling of my deck. Surprised that the curse split was 5-5 in the end! After dishing out the curses, the next was to find a good time to get masterpiece. Robz888 got masterpiece the moment he had more than 5 coins while I chose to wait for a big turn. Luckily, it came with me getting 11 coins and getting 8 extra silvers on my deck. It then went smoothly after the purchase. Interesting game indeed...

Smartie 1: Robz888 0

Game 2
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140412/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1397321389586.txt

This game focuses on the ability to focus on trashing to get King's court to function more efficiently. Hence, we got urchin and cut-purse, hopefully to get mercenary. It worked out for the both of us. We then got tactician to get the big turn to get King's Court. While we did get King's, I thought that my relatively trashed deck should enable me to get all my cards every turn with Hunting Party. I was totally wrong.... Robz888 made the more appropriate decision to get 2 tacticians which enabled him to use mercenary every turn! With 3 cards in my hand, I didnt manage to draw my cards even though I had more hunting party. Smooth victory for him at the end..

Smartie 1: Robz888 1

Game 3
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140412/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1397322129822.txt

This game clearly shows that my naive mind thinking that doctor can clear faster than salvager and loan.. I think the good thing about salvager is that it still can net gold, which enabled him to get more labs, more bridges and villages. Outright victory for Robz888.

Smartie 1: Robz888 2

Game 4
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140412/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1397323470980.txt

At this point, I was determined to win this game. Turned out to be really tough. This game focused on engine, with some buys with fishing village as the only +action card. We both got similar FVs and ~3 Journeyman, and one merchant guild. I think I was on the lead as I purchased my guild much earlier than his, allowing more tokens. However, my luck at 11 totally went out with no journeyman draws. I was depressed. What depressed me further was turn 12 where I completely got no journeyman again! And there were only 3 provinces left... Suddenly, I realized he didnt trigger his shuffle, which means that he will not get the journeyman too! I then took the risk of buying 1 province with all my tokens. Sure enough, my calculation worked, and the next turn I got the last 2 provinces, clinching a narrow victory. I was happy at my decision :)

Smartie 2: Robz888 2

Game 5
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140412/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1397324143237.txt

This game we used similar strategies using FV, masquerade and iron-monger. However, I predicted that besides FVs, ironmonger can also provide another source of +action. Hence I bought 2 masquerades while he just had 1. I think that allowed me to win marginally!

Smartie 3: Robz888 2

Game 6
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140412/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1397324951680.txt

Final game! JoaT on the board, so clearly it is a must have. Now, should we get hamlet or silver? I chose silver while he chose hamlet. That move from him was actually a smarter choice as the hamlet allowed him to discard coppers and cycle his deck faster. He then got vault, which got me certainly surprised. While vault can allow him to get 6 coins at least, this also allowed me to discard cards that I do not want! With 1 plaza, I took the risk to get another JoaT which certainly paid off, allowing me to have more silvers and better economy when I was getting VPs. I think if he had chosen another JoaT instead of vault, he would have won me quite easily. That way, I was lucky :)

Smartie 4: Robz888 2.

I really enjoyed playing with Robz888 as he is really nice and certainly a top-notch player. All the best! Just saw you got married, congrats! :)
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2014, 07:49:32 pm »
0

Also, can someone tell me if there is chance that I get into the playoffs? I do not get the tiebreakers very well, but being on the bottom half of the people with 8 points in the round 6 standings has to be pretty bad, right?

To expand on this, soulnet, the chance of you being in the playoffs is close to 100%.

There are (roughly, I haven't done a detailed analysis) 8 players guaranteed to finish ahead of you, 6 who will beat you if they win or tie, and 9 who need a win to stay ahead. Assuming they're all playing each other (probably not quite true, but close), I'd say you have a decent chance of making it. In the best case, 3 of the 6 play each other with no ties, and all 9 of the others get a tie in their match: you could qualify as high as 12th. Unlikely as that result is, you absolutely have a shot at getting in.

Oh dear... my apologies, soulnet, I had forgotten to count your default (bye by request in round 1).  Which puts you at the bottom of the 10s.  I apologize if I got your hopes up.
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2014, 07:53:15 pm »
0

And of course since I'm posting that, you all can guess that we are very nearly at the end of round 7.  15 of 16 slots are in; we're missing the match result that will determine that last seat in the round of 16, and another match result that will determine seeding near the top.
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Tables

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2014, 09:25:30 pm »
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I haven't checked exactly, but whoo, I'm gonna be in like the bottom 5-ish by the time this Gokodom ends! Missing games and then playing badly in the games I did turn up for (except against A Drowned Kernel, where I somehow managed to play well) apparently isn't a good strategy. Who knew?
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2014, 09:44:07 pm »
0

Just lost against AI  2:4  in a very tense series.

Goko was being silly so i timed out in the actual 2nd game (at a time where i was slightly behind)
and then had to play the next game on a guest account. (which really sucked as i couldn't type
 #vp? during the swindler + fairgrounds game)

logs and comments follow when i have time.

game 1:

A rather weak board. I went for Caravans into Mint - BM. He chose Caravans into Doctor + Outpost + Money.
I think my biggest mistake was to get my mint too early only trashing 4 coppers. As i didnt have much economy at that time, that did lead to me missing 4 on one of the next 2 turns and with that losing the Caravan -Split 6/4.
If i waited until Caravans are out (probably 5/5 split) and then trashed 5 or 6 coppers with it it would have been closer.
His strategy turned out to be better and his Caravan/Outpost turns hit 8 often enough to cruise to an easy 10 point victory.

game 2:

Swindler game with Fairgrounds.
I think i played this game very well with only very few small misplays. I was pretty good at tracking my deck and trashing all those swindled cards like curses extra Doctors etc, but but there was also luck involved. The only thing he did that i really don't agree with was opening Doctor on 4/3 on this board, and he also got really unlucky hitting a Copper and drawing an Estate so he actually had a 4/2 start. He recovered pretty well though and was able to win the Fairground split 5/3, they were worth 6 points for both of us. But i had one extra Province and Swindled one of his Fairgrounds into a Gold which in the end made the difference.

game 4:

There is Vinyards, but the only cheap actions are Hamlet and Masquerade so i decide it's not worth going for it.
And there is also Goons which is a big deal. There is no engine but with enough Hamlets and Goons you should be able to hit double Goons turns reasonably often. He goes for Vinyards straight away which keeps him from getting Goons himself and my discarting attacks do hurt him. I get really lucky in the midgame getting 3 Goons and 2 Hamlets in one turn and can catch up in the points lead he was getting. Also i have a few Golds in my deck enabling me to hit some Provinces with the help of coin tokens that we both got from our Baker. He realizes that he can't catch up and resigns. I guess i got lucky here as my draws were really good, but i just don't think vinyards could really work on that board.

game 5:

Chapel into engine with cursing attacks in form of Soothsayer and Torturer.
He has the lucky 5/2 opening and already gives me a curse on Turn 3. Also i drew my chapel with 4 coppers making it nearly impossible to hit the important 4's and 5's while keeping my deck thin early. Misplaying and trashing a Copper instead of the Estate i drew to his Soothsayer didn't help either. The snowballing begins and soon i decide to resign as he didn't have much additional time anyway and we had the time to finish the match today with that. My chances to win this one were close to zero anyway.

game 6:

Vinyards game again but this time a bit stronger as there is Apothecary and Herbalist with it.
I open Mask/Potion to his Herbalist/Potion and get ahead in the Estate trashing. I pick up a Herbalist on the second shuffle. We both then get a second Potion soon and start rushing the Apothecaries. It's not really an engine possible as there is no village and so you cant get more than 2 cards a turn. He can pick up a few coppers on spare buys that really help him hit $8. I also wanted to do that but never really had the opportunity. I win the Apo split 6/4 and he now focuses more on economy from there, while i rush the vinyards (i win the split 6/2). It gets really really close in the end when he get's his 4th Province on the turn before i can end the game. I try to count but couldn't exactly remember how the rest of the estates were distributed. I guess wrong and lose 35:35 on turns but even if i guessed correct and bought estate(s) instead of the last herbalist(s) there was a decent chance for him to win anyway.
 

« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 11:03:24 pm by MarkowKette »
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2014, 09:59:54 pm »
0

Oh dear... my apologies, soulnet, I had forgotten to count your default (bye by request in round 1).  Which puts you at the bottom of the 10s.  I apologize if I got your hopes up.

Bye by request adds a default? According to the rules and regulations:

Quote
D. A result of DD adds one Default to a player's record.

DD here is Draw by Default, which is, when two players receive a draw because of unavailability to play. It says nothing about BR (Bye by request).

I guess BR being worse than an actual played tie makes sense (if nothing else to encourage playing), but still, between the R&R saying that and your message, I was kind of hoping.
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Lekkit

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2014, 02:09:02 am »
0

And of course since I'm posting that, you all can guess that we are very nearly at the end of round 7.  15 of 16 slots are in; we're missing the match result that will determine that last seat in the round of 16, and another match result that will determine seeding near the top.

Does this mean that me and Walrus are playing for the final spot? Or are we out of the competition?
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2014, 10:58:56 am »
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Argh.  Obviously I've messed this up quite a bit, I thought I had put that into the rules.  And of course any ruling I make at this point is going to make someone unhappy.

Ruling to come shortly.
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2014, 11:23:37 am »
0

Argh.  Obviously I've messed this up quite a bit, I thought I had put that into the rules.  And of course any ruling I make at this point is going to make someone unhappy.

Ruling to come shortly.

You are working for us for free, and doing mostly a great work, so don't worry, this things happen.

In any case, assuming the intersection of the qualified people in both cases (defaulting and non-defaulting BRs) is 15, me and the other player in the symmetric difference of those sets could play each other for the final spot. Moreover, if the name of this other player is already known, I could schedule play before next Monday to avoid delaying playoffs. Of course that is worse for either than going directly into the playoffs, but at least the worst case is improved (yes, CS-bias on my part). For me, I get to play at least one more tournament match, so I'd not be unhappy. I do not care as much for final placement, I do care for playing more significant matches. Luckily, I have no idea who this other fellow is/would be, so I am not attacking anyone directly (i.e., this post is Dominion-compliant).
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2014, 11:57:58 am »
0

Also, for next GokoDom rules, please consider whether BR should grant a penalizing default, especially byes in the early rounds when there is no possibility for speculation. For top16 qualifying (the only time when counting the defaults matter) you are already being penalized when using a BR: You either miss a win by playing a probably inferior opponent or you get a lousy Sokoloff score for a draw (the Sokoloff of a virtual opponent is going to be 7 at the end, and for the default to matter as tie breaker you are compared with people with at least 9 and most likely 10 or 11 points, so the expected Sokoloff you get out of a regular tie is more than 7).
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SCSN

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2014, 12:02:07 pm »
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Kirian,

I don't know soulnet particularly well and I'm indifferent to whether he personally makes it to the play-offs, so this is purely an expression of what I think is fair:

If soulnet had request a Bye for the penultimate round so that he'd have received a tie instead of having to face a possibly stronger opponent, I'd have certainly made his tie-breaker worse than that of those who did play all their matches. However, since the Bye happened in the very first round, where your opponent is completely random, receiving a tie is already a punishment in itself if you're a sufficiently above average player. In addition to that, unless I misunderstand the system, your tie breaker suffers from not receiving any of the matchpoints your first-round opponent scores in subsequent rounds, as you had no first-round opponent to start with. To add a third punishment to the existing two strikes me as excessively cruel.
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amalloy

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2014, 02:01:25 pm »
+1

Kirian,

I don't know soulnet particularly well and I'm indifferent to whether he personally makes it to the play-offs, so this is purely an expression of what I think is fair:

If soulnet had request a Bye for the penultimate round so that he'd have received a tie instead of having to face a possibly stronger opponent, I'd have certainly made his tie-breaker worse than that of those who did play all their matches. However, since the Bye happened in the very first round, where your opponent is completely random, receiving a tie is already a punishment in itself if you're a sufficiently above average player. In addition to that, unless I misunderstand the system, your tie breaker suffers from not receiving any of the matchpoints your first-round opponent scores in subsequent rounds, as you had no first-round opponent to start with. To add a third punishment to the existing two strikes me as excessively cruel.

You do misunderstand the system, according to rule V-A-2. When you receive a bye (by request or by default), a virtual player is created who has the same current score as you do. They tie or lose the imaginary match against you, and then go on to tie all their matches for the rest of the tournament. So, a bye-by-request in round 1 has the same impact on your Sokoloff tiebreaker as tying an average player. That's pretty bad for a player who's in contention for the playoffs, but not nearly as bad as the scenario you imagined, SCSN.
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2014, 06:35:30 pm »
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For anyone not checking, the ruling on the BRs and other rulings were posted by Kirian in a separate thread.
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Monsieur X

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2014, 05:22:21 pm »
+2

Monsieur X  4    Stef  2

game 1  http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.50b20dc3e4b0c9ce0cf27eb3.1397845237949.txt  0-1
i misplayed it and Stef perfectly played it. Nothing to do but resign!

game 2  http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.50b20dc3e4b0c9ce0cf27eb3.1397847243504.txt
we seems to have the same idea with plaza library margrave...  He had 5 on turn 3 and took ghost ship. He tortured me! I really liked his trader! I choose to avoid ghost ship thinking i was late, and just go library, margrave and fast greening, and praying !          0-2

game 3  http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.50b20dc3e4b0c9ce0cf27eb3.1397849762349.txt
This one there were cultist city forager tactician... why not mint bishop..
He first had 5, but finally cultist was not such a killer here. he was ahead but i thougth my 3 quarries could give me possibilites to have control on the end. Also i split 6/4 foragers i think and he was the one who "activated" them.    1-2

game 4  http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.50b20dc3e4b0c9ce0cf27eb3.1397850730628.txt
For me this one,probably opening gave  the game. I took chapel squire, wanting to gain the knigths split trashing squire. (with rabbles also to gain for draws). 2-2

game 5  http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.50b20dc3e4b0c9ce0cf27eb3.1397851453781.txt
Awfull swindlers/knigths game!  At the begining Stef was sorry to have luck.... but next my luck was really incredible and gave me the victory. Sorry for that.  3-2

game 6  http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.50b20dc3e4b0c9ce0cf27eb3.1397852933087.txt
5/2 seems so bad here and he has it... i clearly went on the bad strategy here going JofT and market square. The engine seems to be very powerfull with border village, smithy, merchant guild, peddler...
Honestly i went on this bad idea, because i didnt see smithy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  And between this dificult 5/2 for stef, and much more luck for me next, i won rushing on greens cards
(Turn 4 i took very fast my double jack to have more possibilities to gain gold with market square.
Turn 7 i dont regret my border village merchant guild, but my market square seems strange (why not silver?????))

thank you for the games Stef and for you streaming.
I would like to see it and more streamings, but thats not difficult to make streamings and have top concentration on game?
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WalrusMcFishSr

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2014, 06:11:21 pm »
0

WalrusMcFishSr ties Lekkit 3 - 3

Game 1: 1 - 0

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.51257fd4e4b0a147e28eeb56.1397851144314.txt

I go for Horse Traders/Fool's Gold into Duchy/Duke, while Lekkit denies me a few Fool's Gold and goes for Throne Rooms, Hunting Parties and a Witch. It looks fun but it's not enough I guess. Pretty sure I missed a forced win or two towards the end...I realized eventually I could buy out the curses.

Game 2: 1 - 1

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.51257fd4e4b0a147e28eeb56.1397852165483.txt

Swindler-heavy action, he gets the Golems and I don't, and it worked well for him. I gave him lots of Lookouts but he also got lots of Grand Markets and such. My poor Expand never saw the light of day.

Game 3: 2 - 1

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.51257fd4e4b0a147e28eeb56.1397854226572.txt

This game took forever. I think 5-2 is a big advantage here, but I have no idea if Ghost Ship is the best choice. In any case I'm able to trash down with Count, and then hit him pretty brutally with Ghost Ship and Jesters. He opens with Workshop, which seems reasonable too...he caught up towards the end but it was an uphill climb.

Game 4: 2 - 2

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.51257fd4e4b0a147e28eeb56.1397854969735.txt

Oof. This game was a doozy. Not sure what happened here...he opens with 5 - 2 and gets the early Junk Dealer, I go Silver/Silver but don't even hit 5 my second shuffle. Possibly Labs before Haggler is correct as well, and maybe I should have tried for something Bishop-y earlier. Regardless he mops the floor with me.

Game 5: 3 - 2

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.51257fd4e4b0a147e28eeb56.1397855646058.txt

Squire / Gardens all day erry day. Lekkit jazzes it up with some Throne Rooms and Labs, but I was able to grab 7 Squires, 6 Gardens, and then just bloat to victory.

Game 6: 3 - 3

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.51257fd4e4b0a147e28eeb56.1397856797769.txt

A fun Counterfeit game -- JoaT and Soothsayer means there's plenty of disposable treasures floating around. He executes it better and cinches the 3 - 3 tie!

Thanks for the games Lekkit! Highly enjoyable!
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SCSN

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2014, 09:28:41 pm »
+1

Stef's stream, for those wanting to watch it.
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2014, 10:06:13 am »
0

Stef's stream, for those wanting to watch it.

I see whole black screen for the first minute, is it me?
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2014, 01:28:20 pm »
+6

Stef's stream, for those wanting to watch it.

I see whole black screen for the first minute, is it me?

Nope it's not you, it's them. Ehh, me.
This was a trial run, I just watched some of it myself, and I realize I have quite some things to learn yet about streaming.

Some technical points, but also more personal aspects about it. One of the more difficult ones will be ignoring my own perfectionism, accepting that I can play bad and stream it anyway. Although I start playing really well, at some point I realize I made a huge mistake in game 3 and go down fast from that point on.
That's something I really want to learn though, not just in dominion, so more streams to come.
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