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Author Topic: Hanabi  (Read 32093 times)

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blueblimp

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2014, 03:31:43 am »
0

I did roughly the same calculation as AdamH, to explain why 5P seems so hard to full clear (in time) even without unluck or obvious errors. Observing the roughly 1-to-1 hint-to-play ratio makes the game less exciting, because it means that you're relying on lucky clumping (allowing multiple plays for one hint) to score well and that any "clever" use of a hint is basically wasted if it doesn't result in a play. Without clumping, you'd need some rather ESP plays to beat the 1-1 ratio, as you almost always need to know SOME fact about a card before playing it.

I still like how the game blew my mind on the first couple plays, but I don't feel very drawn to repeat play.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 03:33:53 am by blueblimp »
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Awaclus

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2014, 09:44:47 pm »
+1

Is there a way to get around the problem that has been ruining all of my otherwise perfect games lately, i.e. there are enough cards left in the deck, there are enough clue tokens left, but the bottom card is a red 3 or something when the other copy of that card has already been discarded? Just play more games until some day that doesn't happen?
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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2014, 09:47:51 pm »
+2

I bought this the other day, hoping to play it soon.  It better be good or I'm never listening to you bozos again.
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AdamH

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2014, 09:57:33 pm »
0

Is there a way to get around the problem that has been ruining all of my otherwise perfect games lately, i.e. there are enough cards left in the deck, there are enough clue tokens left, but the bottom card is a red 3 or something when the other copy of that card has already been discarded? Just play more games until some day that doesn't happen?

Yeah, that's just an unfortunate draw when that happens.
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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #54 on: November 01, 2014, 04:44:22 am »
0

Is there a way to get around the problem that has been ruining all of my otherwise perfect games lately, i.e. there are enough cards left in the deck, there are enough clue tokens left, but the bottom card is a red 3 or something when the other copy of that card has already been discarded? Just play more games until some day that doesn't happen?

This is exactly my problem. I think I haven't even had a perfect game yet, as everytime there is a possibility in winning this game, the last or second to last is important and there isn't enough time to finish it in time.

AdamH

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2014, 10:54:44 am »
+2

Well there are of course things you can do to make that less likely. Discarding fours early is much better than discarding twos early. Also, if you're constantly high on clue tokens rather than only having two left, it's much easier to make it so the correct person draws the last card and you get better endgame control.
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Voltaire

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2014, 01:33:30 pm »
0

Played this last night with strangers (so no group meta, and 3 had never played the game before) and we got 15 (five player). I actually felt pretty good about that.
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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2014, 04:28:19 pm »
0

Is there a way to get around the problem that has been ruining all of my otherwise perfect games lately, i.e. there are enough cards left in the deck, there are enough clue tokens left, but the bottom card is a red 3 or something when the other copy of that card has already been discarded? Just play more games until some day that doesn't happen?

This is why I just jump straight to the variant where you play out your entire hands but you have to have a perfect game.

Since I'm competitive enough to consider anything less than 25 as losing, this fits my philosophy well.
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Teproc

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2014, 05:21:11 pm »
0

Is there a way to get around the problem that has been ruining all of my otherwise perfect games lately, i.e. there are enough cards left in the deck, there are enough clue tokens left, but the bottom card is a red 3 or something when the other copy of that card has already been discarded? Just play more games until some day that doesn't happen?

This is why I just jump straight to the variant where you play out your entire hands but you have to have a perfect game.

Since I'm competitive enough to consider anything less than 25 as losing, this fits my philosophy well.


Yep. Hanabi is one of my favorite games, but I cannot play the normal version. It's just boring to get to the end of the game and go "Oh, 23 this time. Great ?".

With the variant it's super tense because you might lose at any moment if you don't play it properly, and you get the actual satisfaction of winning when you do.
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blueblimp

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2014, 07:14:45 pm »
0

Is there a way to get around the problem that has been ruining all of my otherwise perfect games lately, i.e. there are enough cards left in the deck, there are enough clue tokens left, but the bottom card is a red 3 or something when the other copy of that card has already been discarded? Just play more games until some day that doesn't happen?

This is why I just jump straight to the variant where you play out your entire hands but you have to have a perfect game.

Since I'm competitive enough to consider anything less than 25 as losing, this fits my philosophy well.
When I played it, we actually started out with this variant, and decided it was awful for our group. Basically, it's way too easy to win with unlimited time, and because you're just trying to be super careful and not take shortcuts, the game drags. With the normal rules, you're rewarded for taking risks that speed things up.
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AdamH

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2014, 08:09:54 pm »
+1

This is why I just jump straight to the variant where you play out your entire hands but you have to have a perfect game.

To me, this is not unlike playing Monopoly and playing with the Free Parking rule. You aren't playing Monopoly anymore, and most would argue that it makes the game easier/worse.

I've played maybe 150 games of Hanabi and been a part of 5 perfect games. They are rare and difficult, and do require a fortunate draw to get, but the fact that they're so difficult to get makes them very special.
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Teproc

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #61 on: November 03, 2014, 08:16:34 pm »
0

The Monopoly Free Parking rule is bad because it makes the game drag, the Hanabi variant does no such thing (quite the contrary).

I also resent the superiority you seem to be feeling here. You prefer to play the main version, it's not "better", you just prefer it.

As far as it being easy to win... try it with multicolored cards, that's what we mostly do nowadays. A game that you win 5 out of 150 times does not sound like fun to me. If it does to you that's fine, but please don't start telling me I'm playing an inferior version of the game.
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Awaclus

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2014, 09:54:21 am »
+3

We did it! Got a perfect score today.

Felt pretty nice after a slightly less successful game today, where I deduced that since my 5 can't be red, yellow or green, it's got to be blue, and turns out it was actually white  :-[. Counting to five is hard.
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AdamH

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2014, 10:16:59 am »
0

That last game I played was a 4-player game with my fiance and some of my family. My fiance was to my right and going first. She looks around for a little longer than normal and eventually points out the only 1 I can see. All right, so that's the only 1 on the board, eh? Let get some more cards out to get the game going -- BLIND DISCARD!

It was a 5.

It's been over two weeks since that happened and I still haven't lived that move down.

I mean, in general it's not a good idea to blind discard the first time around the table, and that's totally what I did. But I thought I'd take a chance.

I've found that in Hanabi when you're taking a chance, chances are things aren't going so well and they're about to get a lot worse.
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Awaclus

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2014, 02:16:53 pm »
+1

Now we got 30 with the rainbow cards.

Few things in life are more satisfying than discarding a card that you could have played to tell the other player that her newest card is another copy of that same card, and having this result in her actually playing the card without receiving a single clue about it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #65 on: November 23, 2014, 03:55:45 pm »
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I've played a couple times; great game. Definitely something I want to play more. I worry about how to avoid excessive meta gaming when playing a lot with the same group. If you know too much about when people give what clues and such, you could give more info than the game intends you to give.
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Awaclus

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2014, 04:11:59 pm »
+2

I've played a couple times; great game. Definitely something I want to play more. I worry about how to avoid excessive meta gaming when playing a lot with the same group. If you know too much about when people give what clues and such, you could give more info than the game intends you to give.

The point of the game is to give more info than the game intends you to give.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2014, 07:40:23 pm »
0

I've played a couple times; great game. Definitely something I want to play more. I worry about how to avoid excessive meta gaming when playing a lot with the same group. If you know too much about when people give what clues and such, you could give more info than the game intends you to give.

The point of the game is to give more info than the game intends you to give.

But where does it become "cheating"? You could come up with all sorts of meta-rules with your own group about what certain things mean; that's clearly outside what the rules intended to allow you to say. I dunno, something like "every time I tell you that you have exactly 1 yellow; you should play that yellow. But every time I tell you that you have exactly 1 red; you should play that red."
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AdamH

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2014, 07:42:29 pm »
+1

Our group says we're only allowed to use the phrases provided in the rulebook. Long gazing sessions into each other's eyes are allowed.

Of course you can put in all kinds of weird rules for things but I guess you have to decide at what point things stop being fun...
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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #69 on: November 23, 2014, 08:01:12 pm »
0

I've played a couple times; great game. Definitely something I want to play more. I worry about how to avoid excessive meta gaming when playing a lot with the same group. If you know too much about when people give what clues and such, you could give more info than the game intends you to give.

The point of the game is to give more info than the game intends you to give.

But where does it become "cheating"? You could come up with all sorts of meta-rules with your own group about what certain things mean; that's clearly outside what the rules intended to allow you to say. I dunno, something like "every time I tell you that you have exactly 1 yellow; you should play that yellow. But every time I tell you that you have exactly 1 red; you should play that red."
A lot of those kinds of rules run directly into problems - What happens when you have no more hint tokens and you need to pass that information? What if the person two spaces ahead of you has a single yellow card that can only be played if the person between you successfully plays *their* yellow card? And so forth.

In general, I'm okay with conventions being developed that have a certain logical structure behind them, and especially if there are edge cases (yay!) that necessitate breaking the convention to convey more information - so the idea of discarding your oldest card with no information is based on the premise that if no-one has given you any information about it then it's probably something that's not worth keeping; but at the same time maybe it's just that it's a hard card to give information about because of the other cards in your hand. And then if it's clear that I *am* following that general rule, and then suddenly I discard a newer card, it says that I actually do have some information about it and I need to communicate that to the other players. Similarly, the convention to avoid giving clues about discardable cards, which then means that if you're giving someone a clue about a card they can safely discard it potentially means either that the rest of their cards are *not* discardable, or that the discarding of that card lets someone else know that they have the other copy of that card in their hand (otherwise why would this person so flippantly discard their yellow 3?). But all of that comes organically through gameplay, and if I'm playing with a group that includes newer people I won't necessarily tell them that I'm following those conventions, instead I'll just try to help them get that feel for it through the play of the game.
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Awaclus

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #70 on: November 23, 2014, 09:00:04 pm »
0

I've played a couple times; great game. Definitely something I want to play more. I worry about how to avoid excessive meta gaming when playing a lot with the same group. If you know too much about when people give what clues and such, you could give more info than the game intends you to give.

The point of the game is to give more info than the game intends you to give.

But where does it become "cheating"? You could come up with all sorts of meta-rules with your own group about what certain things mean; that's clearly outside what the rules intended to allow you to say. I dunno, something like "every time I tell you that you have exactly 1 yellow; you should play that yellow. But every time I tell you that you have exactly 1 red; you should play that red."

You need meta-rules to win the game. It's literally not possible to get 25 points if you have to receive 2 clues about every card, and it would be a super boring game as well. Unspoken meta-rules such as "when there's a red 1 on the board and I tell you that you have exactly one 2, it's a red 2" exist even in your first game — this meta-rule could be simplified to "assume that your teammates aren't idiots", and as your team becomes more experienced, you can transfer more information with each clue you give and sometimes discarding or playing certain cards too. And it will be super fun, and beating the game will still be a challenge, but not impossible. Meta-rules like "every time I tell you that you have exactly 1 yellow; you should play that yellow" will just hurt you, because if you receive a clue about a single yellow in your hand, in most situations you'll conclude that the only reason why you would receive that clue is that you should play the card, and then there are some situations where you might want to conclude that you received the clue because it's the only remaining yellow 4 in the game so you aren't allowed to discard it.

In a way, you could say that the point of the game is to find the meta-rules that make you win games — such as "discard your oldest cards first", "if you received a clue about multiple cards and one of them had been in your hand for centuries and you just drew the other, play the one that you just drew", etc. In other words, these are just plain good plays, and your team will win games when everyone can assume that everyone in the team plays well.

And then if it's clear that I *am* following that general rule, and then suddenly I discard a newer card, it says that I actually do have some information about it and I need to communicate that to the other players.

That's pretty cool, we've been using that to communicate "I'm doing something stupid intentionally, and there's a reason why I'm doing something stupid intentionally just to do something stupid intentionally so don't make the play you would otherwise make in this situation".
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Kuildeous

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #71 on: November 25, 2014, 04:12:21 pm »
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That's pretty cool, we've been using that to communicate "I'm doing something stupid intentionally, and there's a reason why I'm doing something stupid intentionally just to do something stupid intentionally so don't make the play you would otherwise make in this situation".

That's a difficult one for me to get across to some people.

I've gotten incredulous looks like I'm an idiot for making such a stupid move, and I feel like it's giving away too much information by saying, "Why did I make such a dumb move?" Maybe I'm too worried about it, but it sounds almost like, "That CARD is a 3." It feels like I'm putting too much emphasis on something when I have to explain myself, so I just accept the unspoken accusations of incompetency and etch the moment in my brain so I can explain the situation when the game is over.

I mean, I try to explain beforehand that if something feels wrong, then everyone needs to take a long, hard look at the situation. It may be on purpose.
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AdamH

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2014, 04:25:19 pm »
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I've gotten incredulous looks like I'm an idiot for making such a stupid move, and I feel like it's giving away too much information by saying, "Why did I make such a dumb move?" Maybe I'm too worried about it, but it sounds almost like, "That CARD is a 3." It feels like I'm putting too much emphasis on something when I have to explain myself, so I just accept the unspoken accusations of incompetency and etch the moment in my brain so I can explain the situation when the game is over.

I mean, I try to explain beforehand that if something feels wrong, then everyone needs to take a long, hard look at the situation. It may be on purpose.

I've found that this kind of thing comes with playing with the same group a few times; and I think it comes down to how much you trust the people you're playing with. There are certain people I've played with several times that when they make a move that seems bad to me I automatically assume it's not bad because of something in my hand. Other people, not so much.

Explaining after the game is over is probably the only "legal" thing to do, but if I'm about to make a move that seems bad and I don't think my point is going to get across, I usually stare into someone's eyes for a good 10 seconds before I make the move, without saying anything. Just so they know I have some idea what I'm doing.
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Awaclus

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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2014, 04:35:27 pm »
0

That's pretty cool, we've been using that to communicate "I'm doing something stupid intentionally, and there's a reason why I'm doing something stupid intentionally just to do something stupid intentionally so don't make the play you would otherwise make in this situation".

That's a difficult one for me to get across to some people.

I've gotten incredulous looks like I'm an idiot for making such a stupid move, and I feel like it's giving away too much information by saying, "Why did I make such a dumb move?" Maybe I'm too worried about it, but it sounds almost like, "That CARD is a 3." It feels like I'm putting too much emphasis on something when I have to explain myself, so I just accept the unspoken accusations of incompetency and etch the moment in my brain so I can explain the situation when the game is over.

I mean, I try to explain beforehand that if something feels wrong, then everyone needs to take a long, hard look at the situation. It may be on purpose.

Seriously, "assume that your teammates aren't idiots" is the best piece of advice in the excellent strategy article someone linked earlier. I do this even if I'm playing with less experienced people, because the game doesn't really allow any misplays so either it works out and you can still win, or it doesn't, and you lose more but it's fine because you would lose anyway. And in any case it's a learning experience for the new player.

I have discarded a newer card on purpose just once, and it ended up being a card that I could've played, and that resulted in my teammate thinking that I had somehow figured out what card it was and that I was trying to tell her that she has the other copy of that card in her hand, and then we lost. It was probably a lost game anyway; after all, I had to be pretty desperate to do something like that.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 04:39:35 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Hanabi
« Reply #74 on: November 25, 2014, 05:15:17 pm »
+3

FYI, Hanabi is now on Boardgamearena!  So if you were on the fence, you can try it for free!

Ought to have a hanabi stream at some point.  That'd be a hoot.
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