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Qvist

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« on: January 26, 2014, 07:25:29 am »
+5

Video includes a summary of this series.



The Best Prizes
#5 Diadem Weighted Average: 12.1% / Median: 0% / Standard Deviation: 17.6%
Highest Value(s): #3 (6x) / Lowest Value(s): #5 (32x)

Diadem is the worst price to get. It was voted 32 times on the last place and only 6 times ranked on a mediocre rank #3.

While Diadem rarely hurts as it's still often like a free Gold, it's rarely amazing as you try to build a deck that has exactly enough Actions and not some leftover. Unless you're playing a City stack Diadem is just a nice reward, but never really a reason to go for Tournament in the first place.
#4 Bag of Gold Weighted Average: 19.1% / Median: 25.0% / Standard Deviation: 19.4%
Highest Value(s): #2 (2x) / Lowest Value(s): #5 (17x)

A little bit better than Diadem is Bag of Gold. It was voted twice second and "only" 17 times on the last rank. It has the highest deviation of all the prizes.

While Diadem is often just a Gold, Bag of Gold can net you multiple Golds. The Gold itself though is often delayed until the next turn, but if you play Bag of Gold twice, it was maybe a better pick than Diadem. Another disadvantage is that you can need to spend an Action to play it. While it gives you the Action back, it still often can be drawn dead.
#3 Princess Weighted Average: 48.3% / Median: 50.0% / Standard Deviation: 17.8%
Highest Value(s): #1 (2x) / Lowest Value(s): #4 (11x), #5 (1x)

Princess is much higher ranked. It was voted first two times and last one time.

Princess is a nice prize to get in a strong engine. Being able to reduce the cost of all cards by two can be really strong, especially if there is otherwise no +Buy available and your aiming for the +Buy from Princess. This makes Princess often the first pick if you need this payload for your engine.
#2 Trusty Steed Weighted Average: 73.3% / Median: 75.0% / Standard Deviation: 12.1%
Highest Value(s): #1 (3x) / Lowest Value(s): #3 (5x), #4 (1x)

Trusty Steed has a clearly better rating than Princess. It was only voted once as fourth and five times as third. It has the lowest deviation in this list.

Trusty Steed is the allrounder pick as it rarely hurts and mostly gives you a good option to choose. +2 Actions and +2 Cards gets often picked and is basically an activated City, but unless you really need the Actions +2 Cards and +2 Coins is probably often the best choice. The 4 Silvers get chosen rarely, but if you don't have a thinned down engine, the money can help a lot to continue get to $8, especially if Followers did already get gained.
#1 Followers Weighted Average: 97.1% / Median: 100% / Standard Deviation: 15.3%
Highest Value(s): #1 (46x) / Lowest Value(s): #2 (4x), #5 (1x)

Followers is without doubt the best prize. It was almost exclusively voted first, only 5 didn't, one of them being a weird outlier.

Followers can decide games, especially if there aren't any other attack cards on the board. It might be ignorable in games where there is another curser on the board, but even the discard attack might be good enough to be worth it getting. Getting an Estate makes it a little more balanced, but often it even helps you as each Followers play nets you basically 2 points.


silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2014, 08:43:45 am »
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For once I agree completly, though bag and diadem are close. I love the idea of diadem in a KC deck where you KC - {KC - AnyCard - AnyCard}repeat; your whole deck and end up with 1232143 actions leftover, but that's too rare to really be relevant.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2014, 08:56:23 am »
+3

I think Diadem should be higher than Bag of Gold. When you're getting one of them, it's already pretty late; at least Diadem is an instant Gold (sometimes Silver), but Bag of Gold is a dead card in your current hand.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2014, 10:23:22 am »
+1

I like it that way. Sure, Diadem is better in your current hand, but if you plan on seeing your deck again once (or more, obviously), Bag of Gold is better.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2014, 11:05:22 am »
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I like it that way. Sure, Diadem is better in your current hand, but if you plan on seeing your deck again once (or more, obviously), Bag of Gold is better.
At that point, you don't really care which one of them is better for your deck in the long run and you'd rather gain a Duchy most of the time, unless whatever you gain helps you reach $8 (assuming that buying a Province is tactically wise in that situation). Diadem does that whenever you have a $5-$7 hand now, Bag of Gold requires the same thing and the ability to draw your Gold this turn or knowing that your next hand would be a $5-$7 hand which becomes a $8+ hand when you topdeck a Gold.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2014, 11:23:59 am »
+1

Diadem should beat Bag of Gold. Duchy is often a better Prize than these, except if you take Diadem, you can usually buy Duchy anyway. Bag of Gold gives you a Gold next turn, which might as well be a million years away. And very rarely (like with City) Diadem can be bonkers good. Bag of Gold is never bonkers.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2014, 11:36:43 am »
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I also say Diadem Beats Bag of Gold. Often, Bag of Gold topdecks what Diadem gives you right now. How many more shuffles am I going to have after getting Bag of Gold, considering at least one Province has been gained and the other prizes have probably been gained too? Sure, you can play KC of Bag of Gold, but I'd rather have Diadem after playing KC on Worker's Village.
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2014, 12:53:49 pm »
+1

Diadem should beat Bag of Gold. Duchy is often a better Prize than these, except if you take Diadem, you can usually buy Duchy anyway. Bag of Gold gives you a Gold next turn, which might as well be a million years away. And very rarely (like with City) Diadem can be bonkers good. Bag of Gold is never bonkers.

"Next turn?" Only if you can't draw it this turn, which you often can.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2014, 02:12:30 pm »
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Diadem should beat Bag of Gold. Duchy is often a better Prize than these, except if you take Diadem, you can usually buy Duchy anyway. Bag of Gold gives you a Gold next turn, which might as well be a million years away. And very rarely (like with City) Diadem can be bonkers good. Bag of Gold is never bonkers.

"Next turn?" Only if you can't draw it this turn, which you often can.
Or you just take the Diadem and draw something else. I think the most annoying part about Bag of Gold is that the top-decked Gold gets in the way of your draw. Similar to the Bandit Camp Spoils, you might prefer gaining the Gold into your discard. You know what, Bag of Gold should make the top-decking optional.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2014, 02:17:50 pm »
0

Diadem should beat Bag of Gold. Duchy is often a better Prize than these, except if you take Diadem, you can usually buy Duchy anyway. Bag of Gold gives you a Gold next turn, which might as well be a million years away. And very rarely (like with City) Diadem can be bonkers good. Bag of Gold is never bonkers.

"Next turn?" Only if you can't draw it this turn, which you often can.

But a lot of times you can't even draw Bag of Gold this turn, because of the nature of blocked Tournaments. Making this a very delayed reward that is hardly worthwhile, I've found.
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2014, 02:28:20 pm »
0

Diadem should beat Bag of Gold. Duchy is often a better Prize than these, except if you take Diadem, you can usually buy Duchy anyway. Bag of Gold gives you a Gold next turn, which might as well be a million years away. And very rarely (like with City) Diadem can be bonkers good. Bag of Gold is never bonkers.

"Next turn?" Only if you can't draw it this turn, which you often can.
Or you just take the Diadem and draw something else. I think the most annoying part about Bag of Gold is that the top-decked Gold gets in the way of your draw. Similar to the Bandit Camp Spoils, you might prefer gaining the Gold into your discard. You know what, Bag of Gold should make the top-decking optional.

I do wish that Bag of Gold had +3 Actions, as Donald said he might do if he were making the Prizes today.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2014, 03:08:55 pm »
+1

The thing about the prizes is:
Followers is the one which is most often oppressively the best; if not, then the discard attack from it is still a major contributor fairly often - this is fairly often even a bigger deal than the cursing, but of course both are really important.

Trusty steed is kind of all around good. It's basically just never a bad card to have and often really really good. People misplay it a fair bit, because they will almost always go cards and actions; that's really good, and probably what most decks are actually after, just not to the extent that it is gone for. Some other combinations are really good too, especially in the right spot.

Princess is actually the thing you want most more often than Steed. There are a number of boards where it is the only +buy, and this basically just wins because you each have good engines. Failing this, of course, it's a very nice payload in basically any engine, and if you have nice engines going by the time you are winning prizes, often the way to go.

Bag of gold is fine, like a deck full of golds is good, but... it is just very usually not a prize you want to get. If you really want to be buffing up your treasures, it's usually better to get Steed first anyway, and you can use it for the silvers option and just have an all-around better card as well as a better treasure buffer. Sometimes you also don't want a lot of extra treasures, because you're trying to make an engine.

Diadem is no great shakes, but you get it more than BoG for three reasons: first, as said above, you may want a little money without lots of treasures (plus an extra non-draw card in the bag itself); second, by the time you get either of them, you very often want duchy more; third, diadem can give you money right now in a number of situations that BoG can't, and this can get you e.g. enough money right now for that critical province (the last one most often, but sometimes it'll be the penultimate).

Teproc

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2014, 03:20:18 pm »
+3

Idea for next year : put Duchy in the list. I would probably place it between Princess and Bag of Gold.
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jaybeez

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2014, 02:40:51 pm »
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But Duchy is not a Prize.  We also don't rank Silver with the $3 cards.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2014, 02:45:50 pm »
+3

But Duchy is not a Prize.  We also don't rank Silver with the $3 cards.

you could actually totally do this. you always have to choose between silver and $3 cards, so why not put it in the list? obviously it's extremely board dependend, but so is any other card.
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Teproc

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2014, 02:49:21 pm »
+1

But Duchy is not a Prize.  We also don't rank Silver with the $3 cards.

That's a good point, but I wouldn't be against putting Silver on the $3 list.
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2014, 02:49:50 pm »
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But Duchy is not a Prize.  We also don't rank Silver with the $3 cards.

you could actually totally do this. you always have to choose between silver and $3 cards, so why not put it in the list? obviously it's extremely board dependend, but so is any other card.

I usually think of Silver as a $2 value that costs $3 so that the Kingdom cards are often a better option. I would expect Silver to rank pretty low on the $3 list and likewise for Gold at $6.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2014, 04:00:03 pm »
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But Duchy is not a Prize.  We also don't rank Silver with the $3 cards.

you could actually totally do this. you always have to choose between silver and $3 cards, so why not put it in the list? obviously it's extremely board dependend, but so is any other card.

I usually think of Silver as a $2 value that costs $3 so that the Kingdom cards are often a better option. I would expect Silver to rank pretty low on the $3 list and likewise for Gold at $6.

would that be a reason not to list it?
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2014, 04:01:24 pm »
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But Duchy is not a Prize.  We also don't rank Silver with the $3 cards.

you could actually totally do this. you always have to choose between silver and $3 cards, so why not put it in the list? obviously it's extremely board dependend, but so is any other card.

I usually think of Silver as a $2 value that costs $3 so that the Kingdom cards are often a better option. I would expect Silver to rank pretty low on the $3 list and likewise for Gold at $6.

would that be a reason not to list it?

No, not at all. I don't see any harm in listing it. Sounds like a cool idea to me.
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jsh357

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2014, 04:04:36 pm »
+3

I though Qvist had already decided not to include base treasures/victory cards... (This debate has already happened, I'm saying)
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2014, 04:06:29 pm »
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I though Qvist had already decided not to include base treasures/victory cards... (This debate has already happened, I'm saying)

Yeah, I seem to recall that. No skin off my back either way. I think it would be cool to include them, but it's fine not to.

I think the most interesting would be to see which Kingdom cards are ranked below the Silver and Gold at those costs. I assume that would mean that those are very weak/narrow cards.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2014, 07:11:12 pm »
+1

I though Qvist had already decided not to include base treasures/victory cards... (This debate has already happened, I'm saying)

Yeah, I seem to recall that. No skin off my back either way. I think it would be cool to include them, but it's fine not to.

I think the most interesting would be to see which Kingdom cards are ranked below the Silver and Gold at those costs. I assume that would mean that those are very weak/narrow cards.
More so for the $6's below Gold than the $3's below Silver, I'd say.
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elahrairah13

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2014, 10:39:11 pm »
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here's where I talk shit about Adventurer again.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2014, 09:00:06 am »
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here's where I talk shit about Adventurer again.
Wait! We might still be getting the $6 card list. Then you can bash on Adventurer. I wonder where it would lie on the $5 card list.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Prizes
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2014, 10:38:05 am »
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here's where I talk shit about Adventurer again.
Wait! We might still be getting the $6 card list. Then you can bash on Adventurer. I wonder where it would lie on the $5 card list.

Probably near the bottom, above Harvest.
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