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[Twistedarcher]

Just re-read TA.  He started off very odd, not at all like his IC self in ZM17, for example.  He's adjusted back to the norm in the more recent stuff though.  Not sure why.

I think you got it backwards TA, I did the re-read first.

Oops I missed this sorry, I saw yumas post (or maybe I just thought this one was by Yuma) and then the one you had on this page. Sorry about that

[Twistedarcher]

I just checked early posts and I see what you mean if you're referring to posts such as #189 and #223. Theyre definitely more analytical than my usual posts lately  which I think tend to a more conversational tone. Is this it? I guess an explanation could be that I've been phone posting a lot lately and I actually managed to get down and write out my thoughts coherently. But really idk

[sudgy]

So, my scum reads are Andrew (obviously), then shraeye (I agree with what people are saying about him), then to a lesser extent ADK.  He hasn't done anything else bad, and at the point that I voted him there wasn't much to go off of.

I have a town read on ash.  I'm starting to realize his tactics (which are basically mine on overload), and all that he has done has seemed like what I would expect from town.  I've seen scum ash, and he's usually blatantly obvious about it, argues his way into the center of attention and out of being lynched, gets lynched on D3 or D4, then nobody has anything to go off of because everybody's been talking about him so they lose to his partners.  I'm not seeing that here.

And, obviously, town read on yuma.

Everybody else I'm pretty much null on.

[ashersky]

I just checked early posts and I see what you mean if you're referring to posts such as #189 and #223. Theyre definitely more analytical than my usual posts lately  which I think tend to a more conversational tone. Is this it? I guess an explanation could be that I've been phone posting a lot lately and I actually managed to get down and write out my thoughts coherently. But really idk

That makes sense.  I've had a lot of TA lately, so I guess it's just fresh on my mind.  I'm specifically referring to when we mislynched you on D1 of Hangman and then your D1 of ZM17 as IC as the games to which I'm comparing you.

You'll recall I had a mistaken scum read on you in Hangman based on one post, but was able to pivot from that to Teproc.  Did you mostly phone post in ZM17?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Going back and reading the posts where this started, Andrew seems overly defensive from the beginning.  If he had nothing to hide and the accusation had no credibility, then I don't think he'd need to respond with such incredulousness.

Vote: AndrewisFTTW

Can you please show me which posts you consider incredulous and explain why you think that's what they are?

I've been asking this of everyone all day and nobody has been able to come up with an answer.

[XerxesPraelor]

After Andrew asked people to clarify, I wrote up a clarification post, but he ignored it. When he said he'd respond to my reasons, he instead quoted my vote and proceeded to complain that I didn't respond there to a question he asked after I made that post.

I'm perfectly fine with my vote where it is.

In other business, slight scum read on ash for trying to control yuma's big and for suggesting it goes toward me.

[shraeye]

Apparently missed a lot;  catching up now.

Ash, I think you need to slow down, especially in regards to ADK. You say [to Andrew]:

Yeah, i think that Andrew's is more egregious, being the first to say this.  ADK also qualified his statement in a way that makes it seem more like an assumption he realizes he's making, instead of a fact that he is stating.  I'm fine keeping my vote on Andrew.

[shraeye]

I have already said that this data point isn't enough to lynch someone off! If more assembles then maybe. But this alone isn't worth it at all. I don't make lynch decisions of isolated instances that may or may not be scummy.

Why not?  I think it's enough to lynch off of.  Why should we be very afraid to lynch without "overwhelming evidence", especially on day1.  That stuff is hard to come by.

[shraeye]

I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.

Here is the quote in question, because I think we're getting away from the point.

That is not an assumption.  That is not a guess.  That is not an idea, or a hope, or a wish, or a maybe.  That is a statement of fact.  Whether it actually is a fact or not is unknown to me, but he definitely wrote it as such.

Sorry if I'm dredging overdone conversations again, but this is my take exactly.  There was a huge fruitless discussion about assumptions that are/aren't legal and crap like that.  But this statement does NOT read like an assumption to me; not at all. Throw in the responses to this.  They sounded like quick "ohcrapohcrap" back-pedals

[shraeye]

yeah, that topic needs to be moved past.  More discussion between ash/yuma overwhelmed me.  Let's not go there right now.

I disagree with sudgy's take (#298) on these interactions.  I'm not sure how useful they are.  I guess Twisted chimed in about reactions, Archetype gave his take...But it seems that outside of Ash/yuma/ADK/andrew, other names stayed away.  Maybe this will be more useful on future days, but I don't think it's any use today, unfortunately.  Unless we up and lynch Andrew.  Which probably still is good.

[shraeye]

Having said that, Town read on ash. I think his point on Andrew has merit. It's a long way from a slam-dunk case, but the way he said it does come across as knowledge rather than assumption.

I'm getting a scummy vibe from Arch.

Could you elaborate on Archetype?  Things seem pretty null in my eyes right now.

[shraeye]

BTW, Occam's razor means the simplest answer is more likely to be true.

I agree with TA that the "scumslip" doesn't mean something but that the reaction seems scummy. To me, it sounds like too much self-awareness for town. vote: andrewFTTW

I'm worried that yuma will just be the auto-nk, so I'm thinking about claiming so you'll have an kinda-IC tomorrow. Do you think it's worth it?

I was gonna say, wait! don't claim!  But faust beat me to that punch.  There's a LOT of crazy things that can happen at night, especially in RMM games.  the more we keep scum in the dark, the more they are really taking a risk to target an "obvious kill" if one exists.

[shraeye]

Alright. I have 5 votes on me so I thought I'd go through them all and explain how they're unfounded and how scum is absolutely on this wagon and wants to get this lynch through. So here we go.

What I was the most excited for was the bolded portion in this post.  But it's actually missing.  You talked about hte points, and then at the end picked out the two scummiest people.  EVEN if we're wrong about you (still not sure), there's no guarantee that scum actually are on this wagon.  Have any of us done something manifestly scummy in our votes on you that you can point out and explain?  THAT would be really interesting information.

This post has the look of "these guys are trying to lynch me; since I'm super good town, some of them HAAAAAVVVVEE to be scum".  But that assumption has proven false in many-a-game.  If you want to be helpful to town, could you say what makes TA a contender for scum?  Do you think it's possible that scum are actually the people agreeing with you? (you'd be surprised how often scum defend townies)

[ashersky]

Shraeye's back.  Towny input so far.

[shraeye]

unvote

Thoughts in a less post-by-post fasion:

You go on dismissing ash's case on you, trying to make it sound weaker than it is. But now suddenly you seem to think it's possible that ash just finds you scummy, which you earlier said was ridiculous.

After seeing that you cannot convince ash, you try to force an end on the discussion, and start bringing up other stuff.

Thanks for encouraging me to reread, Andrew! Makes me more confident in my vote on you.

These last points seem super stretched.  For example, he starts talking about xeiron/Jimmm defensiveness.  Which is a great discussion ready to be had.  I'm super-bummed that people are focusing on meta-conversations about assumptions when there's other stuff to talk about too.  This post makes me slightly worried about faust.  Actually, I think that qualifies as a scumread.  So there.

PoE means that their pretty much has to be scum on this wagon, so I'm going to do a reread and try and figure out who it is.

Not in the least.  Please explain why you have townreads on so many people off the wagon, enough to justify saying PoE means there pretty much is scum on the wagon.  That is xeiron, Jimmm, Archetype, yuma, witherweaver, andrew.  Are they all towny?

- jimmmm - remember in diffusion d1, when pingpongsam (as scum) was calling us as a scum team simply for pushing him early day1? He played a very "me-centric" game there, as in he was calling scum based only on who was pushing HIS wagon and interactions with HIM and nothing else. Does Andrew calling the scum team all on his wagon remind you of that? Cause it does to me. It's the approach of "scum want to be pushing through MY mislynch over everyone else" which is pretty irrational as town. The fact that Andrew is saying all scum are focused on lynching him is ringing alarm bells.

I kinda agree.  This is my point when I brought up that Andrew analyzed his wagon from a "scum HAVE to be pushing this" perspective.  Andrew, if you're town, start focusing on other things.  Faust is definitely wrong when he says that's scummy.

sudgy- switched from my wagon to Andrew's pretty easily, seems like he knew they were both mislynches and was waiting to see which one was going to be easier to push.

I think you are somewhat scummy, but not as much as Andrew.  Also, I knew more work would get done if I switched to Andrew.

Sudgy, why did you put Andrew to L-1 if you arent comfortable lynching him?

I am comfortable lynching him, but not right away.

Alright. If you don't want it right away, then why put him to L-1? Especially since you said you'd go after whoever hammered him...that hammering could be prevented if you never put Andrew to L-1 in the first place.

Yeah, I also don't understand the "L-1 but no hammer!" idea.  Even after I saw sudgy's explanation.  I guess L-1 could scare somebody into reacting more...honestly?...vigorously?  I don't vote for somebody unless I'm happy to lynch them.  Ever.  And I mean lynch there and on the spot.  I see no reason to extend days once my mind has been made up.  Sure sure sure, "more interactions could come up"...OR, more shit could happen that just clutters the thread, distracts people's attention, and dilutes my reads.  Not every interaction is useful.

I think yuma's almost definitely Town. I think you're probably Town even though that still reminds me of your threats in Chocolate Factory, so less probably than before but still probably. I think Andrew has a decent chance of flipping scum and think he should probably claim. I'm getting the usual scummy vibe from Arch and I'm not sure what that means these days. And I think I'm going to re-read xeiron.

Thanks.

I'm worried about shraeye now.  3 posts, sheeped me on the scumslip, disappeared.  Nothing in the VLA thread.  Odd.

VERY CONCERNING.  I don't understand how you get scumreads from shraeye on this, especially if you've seen me as scum as often as you have.  I regularly disappear for 1-2 days at a time.  When I "sheep" it's because I was about to make the same point.  I rarely take anybody's opinion into consideration other than my own; because I'm a stubborn, arrogant butt-face.  This aspect of my meta is also known.  Instead of repeating the same post, I say "agree" meaning "This is literally something I was about to say.  I will just quote it to show I agree."

[shraeye]

Shraeye's back.  Towny input so far.

Do I get your validation even after that last one? 


So my reads so far (roughly from scummy->less scummy, my memory is fickle):
scummy--Andrew, faust, ash, xeiron

null--ADK, sudgy (leaning bad), witherweaver (leaning bad), Xerxes (leaning good), jimmmm (leaning good)
towny (roughly in from towniest-->less towny)--Twisted, yuma, archetype

formatting sucks, whatever.  I just read stuff for an hour, so I forgive me.

[Jimmmmm]

Having said that, Town read on ash. I think his point on Andrew has merit. It's a long way from a slam-dunk case, but the way he said it does come across as knowledge rather than assumption.

I'm getting a scummy vibe from Arch.

Could you elaborate on Archetype?  Things seem pretty null in my eyes right now.

I can't actually - I just re-read him and can't remember what it was that gave me that vibe.

[Jimmmmm]

shraeye - is ash's being worried about you enough to take him from "doing a good job" to scummy?

[Twistedarcher]

So, my scum reads are Andrew (obviously), then shraeye (I agree with what people are saying about him), then to a lesser extent ADK.  He hasn't done anything else bad, and at the point that I voted him there wasn't much to go off of.

I have a town read on ash.  I'm starting to realize his tactics (which are basically mine on overload), and all that he has done has seemed like what I would expect from town.  I've seen scum ash, and he's usually blatantly obvious about it, argues his way into the center of attention and out of being lynched, gets lynched on D3 or D4, then nobody has anything to go off of because everybody's been talking about him so they lose to his partners.  I'm not seeing that here.

And, obviously, town read on yuma.

Everybody else I'm pretty much null on.

These are pretty easy reads to make -- scummy on people who have been noted as scummy, towny on ash and then a large paragraph that says really vague things without getting into details. Saying that scum ash is usually blatantly obvious about being scum is just untrue and the fact that you're using this to justify a scum read on someone seems fake (ash is a much better scum player than for you to say "he's not screaming scum d1 therefore large town read".

[Twistedarcher]

I just checked early posts and I see what you mean if you're referring to posts such as #189 and #223. Theyre definitely more analytical than my usual posts lately  which I think tend to a more conversational tone. Is this it? I guess an explanation could be that I've been phone posting a lot lately and I actually managed to get down and write out my thoughts coherently. But really idk

That makes sense.  I've had a lot of TA lately, so I guess it's just fresh on my mind.  I'm specifically referring to when we mislynched you on D1 of Hangman and then your D1 of ZM17 as IC as the games to which I'm comparing you.

You'll recall I had a mistaken scum read on you in Hangman based on one post, but was able to pivot from that to Teproc.  Did you mostly phone post in ZM17?

About half and half but I'm much more rapid fire on blitz usually.

[shraeye]

shraeye - is ash's being worried about you enough to take him from "doing a good job" to scummy?

yeah, my reads on ash can be volatile, especially on day1.  He has a pretty consistent meta, so anything that is out of the ordinary for him is something that I give a lot more weight than an off-comment from somebody else.

[Witherweaver]

Going back and reading the posts where this started, Andrew seems overly defensive from the beginning.  If he had nothing to hide and the accusation had no credibility, then I don't think he'd need to respond with such incredulousness.

Vote: AndrewisFTTW

Can you please show me which posts you consider incredulous and explain why you think that's what they are?

I've been asking this of everyone all day and nobody has been able to come up with an answer.

So I'm talking about your initial reaction, and I'm saying you were taking a position of incredulousness (not that your response was incredulous):

Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?

This was right after Ash voted for you*, before there was a case against you.  To me this comes off as overly defensive, because there hasn't been much of a strong position taken against you.  Just Ash saying that what you said was a slip.  I feel like if you just would have said "I simply thought that with 13 players, three scum was the setup.  Every other game I've seen has been that way" then a lot of suspicion of you would never have been aroused.  But the tone of this message is a lot more defensive than that, which makes me think you have something to defend. 

And your defense since then has been "no one can explain why they think I'm scum," but it feels to me like people have been explaining and that you're just hanging onto the "nobody has a reason" defense.

I mean,maybe this is just tone with everything and it's coincidental here. This is my first game so I'm new at this reading thing, but this is the only thing I've been able to form an opinion about so far.

----
*Actually, going back again, I see Shraeye had jumped on too.  When I initially made my vote I thought your response was directly after Ash, so you only had one vote against you.  Now I see you had two votes.. that does change my perspective a little bit.

[AndrewisFTTW]

After Andrew asked people to clarify, I wrote up a clarification post, but he ignored it. When he said he'd respond to my reasons, he instead quoted my vote and proceeded to complain that I didn't respond there to a question he asked after I made that post.

I'm perfectly fine with my vote where it is.

In other business, slight scum read on ash for trying to control yuma's big and for suggesting it goes toward me.

Are you talking about this?

I don't think being defensive or calm is scummy, just that carefully combing apost to be as towny as possible is, and that's what it looked like to me.

Wanting people to tell you how to react is the exact same reaction I had as scum, and I think it's less likely to be the reaction of a villager.

Combing a post? Do you mean re-reading a post before you post it? What's wrong with that? I've obviously been misunderstood multiple times this game so I'd like to avoid that as much as possible by saying exactly what I mean and not anything else.

I don't need people to tell me how to react. If I say something like "how am I supposed to react?" it's more of a rhetorical question that I'm asking because I don't think there is one correct way to react to anything. Everybody has different ways of expressing themselves and just because you don't like the way I do it doesn't mean it's a scumtell.

Because I didn't get any response after this, and me responding to something is not ignoring it. I'm going to keep looking to see if I missed something else.

[faust]

Someone unvote dammit! I am panic posting from work on my buddies phone. I am a dayvig, if I am compulsive... which I may or may Not be... And I don't shoot before day is over guess what happens to me? so somebody unvote because if I am compulsive then a derp hammer will for sure kill a townie today.... Me. And if I am not compulsive well then hopefully everyone is aware that in a game like this there may be reasons to nit rush into putting someone to l1 when we still have a chunck of time left.

This panicky attitude... strange. Maybe means yuma is compulsive? Because I do not see the merit in stretching out D1. Better someone is put to L-1 when we have still time left than someone is put to L-1 when only 45 minutes remain, and there is no time for them to claim or for us to find an alternative lynch.

[faust]

I strongly disagree with lynch Andrew right now. From my perspective I know that it's perfectly possible that the mistake he made is coming from town, because I'm town and I made it. I also disagree that his reaction is scummy, to me it seems completely consistent with how he reacted in Adventure Time. I'm not saying I'm sure he's town but to me he doesn't seem any scummier than the people who are pushing his lynch. PoE means that their pretty much has to be scum on this wagon, so I'm going to do a reread and try and figure out who it is.

PPE: 1

So... why is it you "strongly" disagree with lynching Andrew? You are basically saying he is a null read for you, what's so wrong with lynching null reads D1?