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[ashersky]

Post Count!

Archetype - 12
yuma - 33
XerxesPraelor - 2
xeiron - 8
faust - 10
Twistedarcher - 15
Witherweaver - 18
shraeye - 5
sudgy - 3
A Drowned Kernel - 15
AndrewisFTTW - 27
Jimmmmm - 8
ashersky - 36

These numbers do not include pre-game.

[Archetype]

Just to let you guys know: I'll be traveling to Portland tomorrow and staying until Sunday. No idea whether or not I'll get Internet access.

[Jimmmmm]

Would some kind of DaySK work?

Vote: jimm
For implying that yuma is someone that we might want to lynch.

How is evaluating someone's claim voteworthy? I said it's pretty unlikely. I'd love to have an IC, but giving someone IC status without considering alternative explanations would be downright stupid. I think at this stage (obviously pending actually seeing him use his power), yuma's pretty close.

Getting defensive?
I take that as a sign that I might be on to something with my vote on you.

Nope, just calling you out on your terrible reasoning.

Is it just terrible terrible? Scum terrible? or simply bad terrible and you're exaggerating?

Well immediately before his post I said "seems pretty unlikely", so his voting me for implying we should maybe lynch yuma doesn't make much sense. If he was saying that we should just automatically give IC status to anyone who has what seems like a verifiable claim without thinking it through and discussing it, well that's a terribly terrible idea.

[Jimmmmm]

Occam's Razor means the most likely thing to be true is probably true.

Ha ha! This sentence is meaningless.

[Jimmmmm]

I think it has to say something about his alignment, either that he absolutely scum or absolutely town.

This sentence seems meaningless too...

[Jimmmmm]

Having said that, Town read on ash. I think his point on Andrew has merit. It's a long way from a slam-dunk case, but the way he said it does come across as knowledge rather than assumption.

I'm getting a scummy vibe from Arch.

[XerxesPraelor]

BTW, Occam's razor means the simplest answer is more likely to be true.

I agree with TA that the "scumslip" doesn't mean something but that the reaction seems scummy. To me, it sounds like too much self-awareness for town. vote: andrewFTTW

I'm worried that yuma will just be the auto-nk, so I'm thinking about claiming so you'll have an kinda-IC tomorrow. Do you think it's worth it?

[faust]

Soo... a lot happened here.

I do agree that Andrew's post about there being only three scum is scummy. I do also agree that his reaction to being called out is scummy. I do not agree with ash about scumslips in general. There are scumslips, but writing "town" instead of "scum" or using < > instead of [ ] aren't scumslips. Andrew saying there are 3 scum might be one. It is the best lead we have on this D1.

Vote: Andrew

[faust]

BTW, Occam's razor means the simplest answer is more likely to be true.

I agree with TA that the "scumslip" doesn't mean something but that the reaction seems scummy. To me, it sounds like too much self-awareness for town. vote: andrewFTTW

I'm worried that yuma will just be the auto-nk, so I'm thinking about claiming so you'll have an kinda-IC tomorrow. Do you think it's worth it?

This is RMM, yuma is far from being an auto-NK. Town almost certainly has some kind of protective role. You claiming does not in any way make you IC. Nor did it make yuma IC. You should not claim unless you think the information you have to share is worth giving scum more information about the setup.

Your post reads townie though.

[Witherweaver]

Man, this kind of game really escalates quickly.

I don't know how to read the whole scumslip thing.  It does seem very suspicious.  On the other hand, if everyone but ash has only played 3 scum members in 13 player games, it seems a fair assumption.  I feel like someone involved in it is scum, but I'm not sure who yet. I think I'll have to reread..

...okay crazy idea that may have no merit at all.  Would it make sense for both Ash and Andrew to be scum and Ash is throwing Andrew under the bus?  That could throw a lot of suspicion off of him in the future.  Or, Andrew's three-scum comment could have been a real slip and this is how Ash is covering for it.  If we end up lynching Andrew, then Ash looks strong town.  If we end up not being convinced, then we're less likely to come back to thinking Andrew is scum.  Either way, it would protect one of them.

I have another thing that's been bothering me a little.  Why do we assume that dayvig is town?  I understand that we think it's not scum because it would be too powerful to kill both day and night (I think?).  Couldn't it just as easily be the "third faction" that may or may not be around?  I was thinking that town doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the context of flavors.  I imagine none of the Aes Sedai would have such an ability. (They're sworn to not initiate violence against other people.)  That takes out Nynaeve, Egwene, Elaine, Aviendha, Moiraine, Suan.  (Not all of these characters may be in, but most probably are.)  Probably not a Warder either.  The only person I could think it would be for town is Rand.. maybe someone like Thom.  On the other hand, killing someone in the daytime makes sense for Children of the Light. 

Anyway, I could be trying to draw too much from the flavors.  I don't have an experience with these games so I don't know how important they end up being.  But I didn't quite follow why everyone knew it was town right away.

Also, is it a one-shot thing? 

[Witherweaver]

Initially I didn't agree with ash, since there really aren't scumslips.

False.  There have been scumslips, both crazily overblown and crazily overlooked.

There's Frisk's famous original, of course.  But I've made two, at least, in my scum play on f.ds.  I think it was chocolate factory where I did the <b>bolding</b> error and was able to play it off before I got called out.  In Mean Girls I scumslipped on purpose and no one picked up on it.

What was Frisk's, and what does the <b>bolding</b> thing mean?

[Witherweaver]

Initially I didn't agree with ash, since there really aren't scumslips, so I went back to the original post.

I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.

Immediately after...

There's only three scum but there's also possibly (probably) at least one third party, i.e. a serial killer, which both town and scum have to worry about.

This reads to me as scum!ADK seeing town!Andrew say that there are 3 scum, assume that this is included in the OP and agrees with him that "there's only three scum". I think that that in itself is more likely to be a scumslip than what Andrew said. However, I think Andrew's response to the pressure is a bit scummy. I still find xeiron's behavior  scummier than both of them, so I'll leave my vote there. But scum points to ADK . I agree that ash is being completely ridiculous with the Andrew thing. I don't think he'd push this crazily as scum, so I lean Town.

This feels arbitrary.  Wouldn't it feel just as likely that Andrew was scum, slipped with the message, and ADK innocently assumed it as fact?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Alright. I have 5 votes on me so I thought I'd go through them all and explain how they're unfounded and how scum is absolutely on this wagon and wants to get this lynch through. So here we go.

1)

How does Andrew know the number of scum?  It's not listed anywhere--I just checked?  Scum slip.

vote: andrew

Ash votes me for an apparent "scumslip" which nobody else really seems to agree with, despite a few pages of discussion. Sure people think it's scummy but not a scumslip necessarily (huh?).

2)

I'm totally on board with ash.

Vote: andrew

Shraeye votes for me for what I can only assume (hey look I'm assuming again, conf!scum!) are the same reasons ash are voting me for.

3)

I don't find the scum slip that compelling -- we did this same thing in innovation and it came from town, not scum -- but I DO find this response from Andrew scummy. It's too...calm?

vote:Andrew [/]

TA votes me for defending myself. I'm curious as to what about my defense is scummy and his response is this:

It just reads scummy to me. Sorry, I can't give you better than that right now, and I'm not saying you are super duper 100% scum or anything, but I get a scummy vibe from it.

Leaving me absolutely nothing to dispute. How convenient. Someone thinks my posts are scummy but can't quite articulate it besides saying they're "calm" in the original post. My "calm" posts that TA are referring to are a total of two posts. Here they are:

Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?

Did I accidentally join a drunk mafia game?

Nobody bothered to answer my setup question for a few pages. This really bothers me because instead of someone (anyone?) coming in and telling me my assumption was technically wrong (despite some other people admitting to making that assumption as well... like TA), everyone decided to debate setups and theory and reading between the lines. Yes I think yuma made a lot of excellent points but I would've much rather defended myself and had people answer my questions for a discussion. As it turned out, nobody was interested in what I had to say, yet they were certainly interested in voting for me.

My second post is the beginning of my realization that ash is actually serious about this whole thing. I'm still blown away by it. Anyway, the point is these two posts apparently are "calm" and thus are scummy according to TA.

4)

I agree with TA that the "scumslip" doesn't mean something but that the reaction seems scummy. To me, it sounds like too much self-awareness for town. vote: andrewFTTW

So XP thinks my reaction was scummy. Can you please elaborate on this? What do you mean by self-awareness? You agree with TA that my reactions are scummy, so does that mean you agree that my reactions are "calm" and thus scummy? Or do you agree that you can't quite put your finger on how they're scummy but they are? How am I supposed to react to fit the mold of "town"? Earlier, ash accused ADK of being scummy for "flailing". Ok let me see if I have this right. Being calm is scummy, flailing is scummy, according to Xeiron getting defensive AT ALL is scummy. So somebody please tell me how I'm supposed to respond. I'd appreciate it.

For the record, this is the same thing I was talking about in Star Wars that everyone but yuma ignored. What I pretty much said was instead of saying definitively that something is scummy, say you "think" something is scummy and give an explanation. This is to avoid situations like this, which are situations that scum wants by the way, where everyone jumps on the "scummy reactions" bandwagon. Not all calm reactions are scummy. Not all emotional reactions are scummy. Not all assumptions are scummy. And nobody bothered to compare any of this to how I played Adventure Time or Star Wars. Granted there's not much to go on and I honestly don't know how my play here compares to those games but it seems to me that if you're committed to this game then you should take advantage of all the information you have available and all the information you COULD have available before committing to a vote that could be part of a mislynch.

5)

I do agree that Andrew's post about there being only three scum is scummy. I do also agree that his reaction to being called out is scummy.
Vote: Andrew[/b]

See my reaction to XP's vote above.

My scum reads on this wagon (I'm sure nobody cares) are TA and shraeye but I really don't have much to go on since shraeye hasn't posted since agreeing with ash. So...

vote: TA

Thank you for your time. Is this scummy enough for you guys?

[Archetype]

Initially I didn't agree with ash, since there really aren't scumslips, so I went back to the original post.

I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.

Immediately after...

There's only three scum but there's also possibly (probably) at least one third party, i.e. a serial killer, which both town and scum have to worry about.

This reads to me as scum!ADK seeing town!Andrew say that there are 3 scum, assume that this is included in the OP and agrees with him that "there's only three scum". I think that that in itself is more likely to be a scumslip than what Andrew said. However, I think Andrew's response to the pressure is a bit scummy. I still find xeiron's behavior  scummier than both of them, so I'll leave my vote there. But scum points to ADK . I agree that ash is being completely ridiculous with the Andrew thing. I don't think he'd push this crazily as scum, so I lean Town.

This feels arbitrary.  Wouldn't it feel just as likely that Andrew was scum, slipped with the message, and ADK innocently assumed it as fact?

I suppose. But ADK saying "which both Town and scum has to worry about" makes me think that ADK is urging both Town and Mafia to hunt after the 3rd party. Maybe I'm making too many conclusions, but I think ADK has a higher chance of flipping scum than Andrew does. I'll Vote:ADK just in case I don't have access over the next couple of days.

[Archetype]

Initially I didn't agree with ash, since there really aren't scumslips.

False.  There have been scumslips, both crazily overblown and crazily overlooked.

There's Frisk's famous original, of course.  But I've made two, at least, in my scum play on f.ds.  I think it was chocolate factory where I did the <b>bolding</b> error and was able to play it off before I got called out.  In Mean Girls I scumslipped on purpose and no one picked up on it.

What was Frisk's, and what does the <b>bolding</b> thing mean?

As Mafia in one game, Captain_Frisk said "I have a 0% chance of flipping Town". When you type in QTs, you have to use <> tags instead of [] tags to add inline styles. In one game, Town!Voltgloss used <b></b> instead of in a post. Scum!shraeye said it was a scum slip (Mafia could talk during the day and said that Voltgloss was talking to his partner, which made him use the wrong tag) and Voltgloss got lynched for it.

Frisk really was scum, but like Yuma said the scum slip isn't why he got lynched. Voltgloss's lynch is an excellent example of why scum slips don't really exist, but scum love to push the idea of them.

[faust]

So, Andrew, you ask me to specify what about your reply I found scummy. Let me try that.

Your first reaction after ash calling out your "scumslip" is to say you thought 2 and 3 are the only numbers of scum used. Well, I do not think you actually believed that, for one. And what's more, the post reads like trying to play the slip down.

Next, you are implying that ashersky is drunk, and thus his jugdment is clouded. This is either a joke (and Mafia has been seen joking when they are nervous) or an appeal to emotion. In any case, you are not responding rationally.

Then, more appeal to emotion follows. You are also saying here that ash is either just trying to get reactions or scum, completely ignoring the option that he may actually think you are scum. I think as town you would at least have to admit that your "slip" was scummy.

You go on dismissing ash's case on you, trying to make it sound weaker than it is. But now suddenly you seem to think it's possible that ash just finds you scummy, which you earlier said was ridiculous.

After seeing that you cannot convince ash, you try to force an end on the discussion, and start bringing up other stuff.

Thanks for encouraging me to reread, Andrew! Makes me more confident in my vote on you.

[XerxesPraelor]

I don't think being defensive or calm is scummy, just that carefully combing apost to be as towny as possible is, and that's what it looked like to me.

Wanting people to tell you how to react is the exact same reaction I had as scum, and I think it's less likely to be the reaction of a villager.

[Jorbles]

Vote Count 1.4:

Jimmmm (1): xeiron
sudgy (1): Jimmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (6): ashersky, shraeye, Twistedarcher, XerxesPraelor, faust, Archetype (L - 1)
A Drowned Kernel (1): sudgy
Twistedarcher (1): AndrewisFTTW

Not voting (3): yuma, Witherweaver, A Drowned Kernel

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch..

Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles may be around and will try to get online asap if it comes right down to deadline.)

[Jorbles]

An error in the Pattern! This is the correct vote count.

Vote Count 1.4.2:

Jimmmm (1): xeiron
sudgy (1): Jimmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (5): ashersky, shraeye, Twistedarcher, XerxesPraelor, faust,
A Drowned Kernel (2): sudgy, Archetype
Twistedarcher (1): AndrewisFTTW

Not voting (3): yuma, Witherweaver, A Drowned Kernel

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch..

Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles may be around and will try to get online asap if it comes right down to deadline.)

[AndrewisFTTW]

So, Andrew, you ask me to specify what about your reply I found scummy. Let me try that.

Your first reaction after ash calling out your "scumslip" is to say you thought 2 and 3 are the only numbers of scum used. Well, I do not think you actually believed that, for one. And what's more, the post reads like trying to play the slip down.

Whether or not you believe me is up to you, I can't argue that. But I didn't say I thought 2 or 3 are the only numbers of scum used. I thought 2 was used for "small" games (about 9 players) and 3 was used for "big" games (about 13 players). I wasn't aware of any other size games but of course you can customize a game of mafia however you would like. I just wasn't thinking in that way because I didn't think it applied here.

Next, you are implying that ashersky is drunk, and thus his jugdment is clouded. This is either a joke (and Mafia has been seen joking when they are nervous) or an appeal to emotion. In any case, you are not responding rationally.

This is indeed a joke because I thought ash's initial post was some sort of joke, simply because I saw it as such a ridiculous argument that I couldn't think of what else it could be. It's amazing how every time I've made a joke people have jumped all over it, even if it's ridiculously obvious. The same thing happened in both Adventure Time and Star Wars so I guess I'm 3 for 3 now. And who says town can't make jokes anyway?

Then, more appeal to emotion follows. You are also saying here that ash is either just trying to get reactions or scum, completely ignoring the option that he may actually think you are scum. I think as town you would at least have to admit that your "slip" was scummy.

Appealing to emotion? I was still trying to figure out what ash could possibly see in my post other than an assumption on the number of scum in 13 player games. What does emotion have to do with this? I don't think what I said was scummy and some other people here feel the same way. Even some of the people voting for me feel the same way.

You go on dismissing ash's case on you, trying to make it sound weaker than it is. But now suddenly you seem to think it's possible that ash just finds you scummy, which you earlier said was ridiculous.

Well yeah, eventually I realized that ash was serious and I responded to that argument accordingly. Am I supposed to not try to make his argument sound weak when I think it is?

After seeing that you cannot convince ash, you try to force an end on the discussion, and start bringing up other stuff.

I can't force anyone to do anything so why would I try? All I said was this isn't going anywhere so why spend pages talking about it? Pretty much all that was being discussed was scumslips, if they actually exist, and whether or not this applies here. If someone was discussing the case on me with something other than "SCUMSLIP OMG!" I would've been happy to have discussed it. You conveniently don't include this post here:

I guess shraeye thinks I'm scum too? At least he voted for me. What do you think shraeye?

in which I ask to hear shraeye's opinions about why he thinks I'm scum. Is this trying forcing an end to the discussion? I'm actually PROMOTING discussion on my case; the complete opposite of what you accuse me of doing.

As far as bringing up something else, am I suddenly not allowed to post anything but rebuttals? And it's not like just because I post something else the previous conversation stops anyway, so I don't know what your argument is here.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I don't think being defensive or calm is scummy, just that carefully combing apost to be as towny as possible is, and that's what it looked like to me.

Wanting people to tell you how to react is the exact same reaction I had as scum, and I think it's less likely to be the reaction of a villager.

Combing a post? Do you mean re-reading a post before you post it? What's wrong with that? I've obviously been misunderstood multiple times this game so I'd like to avoid that as much as possible by saying exactly what I mean and not anything else.

I don't need people to tell me how to react. If I say something like "how am I supposed to react?" it's more of a rhetorical question that I'm asking because I don't think there is one correct way to react to anything. Everybody has different ways of expressing themselves and just because you don't like the way I do it doesn't mean it's a scumtell.

[sudgy]

Andrew, what other mafia games have you been in?  I would like to reread them.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Adventure Time (only D1) and Star Wars.

[sudgy]

I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here.  That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...

[Witherweaver]

I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here.  That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...

That was a miscount.  He has 5 votes for him.