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[Archetype]

sudgy- switched from my wagon to Andrew's pretty easily, seems like he knew they were both mislynches and was waiting to see which one was going to be easier to push.

I think you are somewhat scummy, but not as much as Andrew.  Also, I knew more work would get done if I switched to Andrew.

Sudgy, why did you put Andrew to L-1 if you arent comfortable lynching him?

I am comfortable lynching him, but not right away.

Alright. If you don't want it right away, then why put him to L-1? Especially since you said you'd go after whoever hammered him...that hammering could be prevented if you never put Andrew to L-1 in the first place.

[ashersky]

I'm not disputing this point of yours, which is valid.  If it is a communication failure, and only that, he doesn't "deserve" to be lynched for it.  But...

No. That is not how you have felt. Before you just wanted to lynch him from the scumslip... going as so far as to suggest me dayvigging him based solely off the scumslip alone. Nothing doing with the reactions. In fact you only recently started actually analyzing the reaction (first post I see is #267 where you say you have pointed out his "other scummy statements" but I didn't see you point out scumminess. I just saw you point out how he was wrong, and having a different opinion of you isn't scummy. All of the posts before that are either just saying he is scum or arguing with him about why you are right... not analyzing what he is saying as scummy or townie.

This really makes me wonder ash... You are taking a different approach now? Why? Why isn't your original reason good enough now despite you using it before? Is it because you are trying to adapt your case to what you think I would want the case to be?

I've expanded to include analysis because you weren't listening to me before.  If you aren't going to trust my instincts, and you want to see more "proof," then I have to put in the work to provide it, right?  You want a case, I'll give you a case.

So yeah, I dont' think Andrew is town based off his reactions. I don't see any merit in the scumslip (or at the least very, very little). I won't be votign for him nor will I be dayvigging him unless something happens. I am not convinced he is town, but I do not believe him to be the correct lynch today.

And after all this, you say "I don't think Andrew is town based off his reactions."  If you don't think he's town, you think he's possibly scum.  But you won't vote for him.  Why?

[ashersky]

Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?

Here's Andrew's first post following my vote.  The wording here is odd -- especially when compared to his later posts that include a lot more ATE.

He starts with two one word questions, which are meant to be disarming and show some confusion.  The "is this incorrect" phrasing is very strange as well.  Usually you'd see a ", right?" added to the line before, or "Am I wrong?" I think.  The "incorrect" instead of "wrong" feels really off here.

UGH! Strike 1!

What does "Strike 1" mean?  Three strikes and you unilaterally kill someone?  Talk about anti-town, if that's what you are thinking.

And no one else has strikes?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Maybe Andrew meant to say "I think there are probably three scum in this setup based on what I've seen in other setups," but he didn't say that, so it's his own fault for communicating badly.  He's had pages and pages to clarify his statement, but he hasn't.  I want you to see that.  Read all of his posts.  He never clarifies or changes his stance.  He said at the very beginning "THERE ARE THREE SCUM" and has not waivered, clarified, adjusted, or qualified his statement.

Not exactly sure what you're saying here but I guess it's that I've never said I didn't know for sure that there are 3 scum? I've pulled this up for. Let me know if this is not what you're talking about.

So he thinks I'm scum because I assumed there's three scum in this game and that apparently is a scumslip? Maybe because that's ridiculous.

Wow. In my limited experience with mafia I have never seen or heard of a game with anything other than 2 or 3 mafia. Thus I assumed that's just how mafia is played and still nobody has told me otherwise.

I've been in Adventure Time and Star Wars which had 3 and 2 scum respectively. This is game 3 for me. I've checked out a lot of other games on this forum and they've all had either 2 or 3 scum. Obviously mafia games and customizable but for some reason I thought this wasn't any different given the size of the game.

Not the same at all actually. Because ALL previous big games I have seen have had 3 scum made it a pretty safe assumption to me that this one would have 3 also.

I'm sure there's more but I'm typing on a phone and I'm kinda busy right now.

[yuma]

And after all this, you say "I don't think Andrew is town based off his reactions."  If you don't think he's town, you think he's possibly scum.  But you won't vote for him.  Why?

Because I as a human, made a mistake and accidentally subbed in the word "town" for "scum."

It should have said "I don't think Andrew is scum based off his reactions."

Or are you going to say that is a scumslip...

And no I am not going to shoot anyone for a number of strikes although sometimes i am very tempted... This role has been a constant battle of self control.... which I am winning, but only very slightly at times. But mostly what I meant is that I am not interested in having a conversation--which will turn into a battle--with you over semantics. That isn't why I play the game and isn't something that I think will lead to anything useful.

[Witherweaver]

Going back and reading the posts where this started, Andrew seems overly defensive from the beginning.  If he had nothing to hide and the accusation had no credibility, then I don't think he'd need to respond with such incredulousness.

Vote: AndrewisFTTW 

[yuma]

exactly what Andrew said above. For now I am moving on.... to try and find who I actually think is scum. I am probably not going to write up anything else on Andrew unless he does something that changes my opinion. I will probably continue to say he shouldn't be the lynch because I don't really anticpate making the most vocal of you change your minds, but even if he is going to be the lynch I want to figure out how to use my role best... So even if you are insistant on lynching him (bad idea!) give me time to figure out what I want to do please!

Witherweaver, please unvote... Please! I don't want a derphammer completely and totally turning this day into the worst day1 ever!

[ashersky]

And after all this, you say "I don't think Andrew is town based off his reactions."  If you don't think he's town, you think he's possibly scum.  But you won't vote for him.  Why?

Because I as a human, made a mistake and accidentally subbed in the word "town" for "scum."

It should have said "I don't think Andrew is scum based off his reactions."

Or are you going to say that is a scumslip...

And no I am not going to shoot anyone for a number of strikes although sometimes i am very tempted... This role has been a constant battle of self control.... which I am winning, but only very slightly at times. But mostly what I meant is that I am not interested in having a conversation--which will turn into a battle--with you over semantics. That isn't why I play the game and isn't something that I think will lead to anything useful.

Man, I don't know how you expected me (or anyone) to know that you made a mistake in that line.  So sorry for not assuming it was an error and instead just taking it at face value.

If you are not interested in having a conversation over semantics, what would you like to talk about?  This is a game played by posting words in a forum online.  It's all about semantics, and only semantics.  (Note, I looked up the definition to be sure.  Semantics is "the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning."  That pretty much sums up forum mafia right there.)

So, if concerning ourselves with the meaning of folks' logic and linguistics isn't useful, what would you suggest we discuss?

[ashersky]

For now I am moving on.... to try and find who I actually think is scum.

I have zero problem with this, obviously.  I'm also reading and re-reading, looking for Andrew's partners.

TA's worth a re-read; I'd like to know if anyone else sees a significant difference between beginning of game TA and more recent TA.

[yuma]

Going back and reading the posts where this started, Andrew seems overly defensive from the beginning.  If he had nothing to hide and the accusation had no credibility, then I don't think he'd need to respond with such incredulousness.

Vote: AndrewisFTTW

How would you respond if someone came up to you and accused you of making a mistake that you thought was totally innocent? Would you be overly defensive? He starts out surprised and then becomes incredulous and yes very, defensive once it picks up steam! I just read all of his posts and they look exactly like someone who was completely flummoxed by everything that everyone aroudn him was saying because it was based off a ridiculous premise and someone who is frustrated because no one except for me apparently is listening to him at all!

GAH!

vote: witherweaver

[ashersky]

yuma, can you use your dayvig during twilight?  Maybe it's worth checking.  That way, if there is a derphammer, you might still get your shot off.

In the meantime, unvote.  You know I'm not afraid to re-vote whenever it's time.

[Witherweaver]

Going back and reading the posts where this started, Andrew seems overly defensive from the beginning.  If he had nothing to hide and the accusation had no credibility, then I don't think he'd need to respond with such incredulousness.

Vote: AndrewisFTTW

How would you respond if someone came up to you and accused you of making a mistake that you thought was totally innocent? Would you be overly defensive? He starts out surprised and then becomes incredulous and yes very, defensive once it picks up steam! I just read all of his posts and they look exactly like someone who was completely flummoxed by everything that everyone aroudn him was saying because it was based off a ridiculous premise and someone who is frustrated because no one except for me apparently is listening to him at all!

GAH!

vote: witherweaver

But it seems like there's no danger if you have one vote against you.  I would have just said why I thought what I did.  His first post doesn't sound at all flummoxed to me.

[sudgy]

sudgy- switched from my wagon to Andrew's pretty easily, seems like he knew they were both mislynches and was waiting to see which one was going to be easier to push.

I think you are somewhat scummy, but not as much as Andrew.  Also, I knew more work would get done if I switched to Andrew.

Sudgy, why did you put Andrew to L-1 if you arent comfortable lynching him?

I am comfortable lynching him, but not right away.

Alright. If you don't want it right away, then why put him to L-1? Especially since you said you'd go after whoever hammered him...that hammering could be prevented if you never put Andrew to L-1 in the first place.

Two reasons:

1. Actually voting for someone is a lot more than saying you will
2. L-1 is a scary place to be and we could figure out more from it

As for someone else hammering, I would only expect it from scum at this point (which is why it probably wouldn't happen) and it would be great if we could figure it out.  Yuma possibly dying was what made me reconsider.

[yuma]

I'll ask...

ash... if I am not going to shoot Andrew who would you suggest I shoot instead?

I think at this point i am interested in hearing opinions from everyone--well everyone that has a solid opinion on this. Don't just create an opinion for me. I only want solid opinions and I am not demanding everyone give one just for the sake of giving one.

[ashersky]

I'll ask...

ash... if I am not going to shoot Andrew who would you suggest I shoot instead?

I think at this point i am interested in hearing opinions from everyone--well everyone that has a solid opinion on this. Don't just create an opinion for me. I only want solid opinions and I am not demanding everyone give one just for the sake of giving one.

I think the thought process if I was a dayvig who had to shoot today...

1)  Do I have a scum read I'm confident enough in to shoot them as a N1 vig?  If yes, shoot them D1.  If no...
2)  Is there consensus on a target from the majority of players?  How do I feel about those who agree?  Then...
3)  Is there a lurker or two who seem suspiciously absent from important conversations, or just laid down a vote and disappeared?

I think the answers to 2/3 would lead me to a good target.  For me, that's probably shraeye right now.  Even though he's agreed with me, and I like that, the way he agreed and left is odd to me.  Maybe he has a good excuse, and he'll be back and contributing, and I'd change my mind (which is why it's good to take time on this).  He's such a strong town player that we don't want to lose him, but man he's hard to catch as scum, too.

I'd say sudgy and the two Xs are on the scummy end of the Andrew wagon, and are probably in the "fine to lynch, so fine for yuma to shoot" category, so if I was looking for a suspicious bus (or scum helping along a mislynch), it'd be those two.

I don't have a lot of firm town reads.  Just a few scummy and a lot of null.

I don't envy your position, yuma.  It's a hard decision, and sucks if you get it wrong.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Going back and reading the posts where this started, Andrew seems overly defensive from the beginning.  If he had nothing to hide and the accusation had no credibility, then I don't think he'd need to respond with such incredulousness.

Vote: AndrewisFTTW

How would you respond if someone came up to you and accused you of making a mistake that you thought was totally innocent? Would you be overly defensive? He starts out surprised and then becomes incredulous and yes very, defensive once it picks up steam! I just read all of his posts and they look exactly like someone who was completely flummoxed by everything that everyone aroudn him was saying because it was based off a ridiculous premise and someone who is frustrated because no one except for me apparently is listening to him at all!

GAH!

vote: witherweaver

But it seems like there's no danger if you have one vote against you.  I would have just said why I thought what I did.  His first post doesn't sound at all flummoxed to me.

That's you. I'm not you. This is my first post after ash's accusation.

Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?

Like I've already said a few times, I'm under the impression that ash is making some sort of joke or something. I was pretty confused. And again, nobody bothered to answer my question but rather called this and my next post scummy and jumped on the wagon.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm going to hold off on claiming for now. I hope everyone re-reads the last few pages at least and sees that there's no good argument for lynching me.

You realize it doesn't take a good argument for a player to be lynched, regardless of alignment, right?

Is there a point to this post?

[ashersky]

I'm going to hold off on claiming for now. I hope everyone re-reads the last few pages at least and sees that there's no good argument for lynching me.

You realize it doesn't take a good argument for a player to be lynched, regardless of alignment, right?

Is there a point to this post?

Yes.  I'm trying to tell you that it's better to try than to just expect people to change their minds for no reason.  Also that, even if you think there is no "good argument" for your lynch, you could be lynched anyway, and if you don't want to be lynched, you'd be better served posting than just waiting for people to read.

[Twistedarcher]

I have skimmed but not read fully but here's a few thoughts:

- kinda get town reads for sludgy and whomever jumped onto the wagon 5th (ww I believe). If they are scum I don't think this is a wagon you really want -- if Andrew is scum you are getting him close to lynch which is really risky, but if Andrew is town, if he flips you look super scummy for jumping on pretty carefree. Basically I don't think mafia is likely to jump on regardless of Andrews alignment. So two reads there, if there's scum on wagon I would guess its among ash/shraeye.

- jimmmm - remember in diffusion d1, when pingpongsam (as scum) was calling us as a scum team simply for pushing him early day1? He played a very "me-centric" game there, as in he was calling scum based only on who was pushing HIS wagon and interactions with HIM and nothing else. Does Andrew calling the scum team all on his wagon remind you of that? Cause it does to me. It's the approach of "scum want to be pushing through MY mislynch over everyone else" which is pretty irrational as town. The fact that Andrew is saying all scum are focused on lynching him is ringing alarm bells.

If we move away from Andrew I actually would prefer to look at people who didn't jump on the wagon (barring Yuma). I think it's a wagon scum wanted to avoid. Regardless lets not lynch Andrew now we have time, and please give me time to settle into my new place and up to speed before we lynch that would be super cool.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm going to hold off on claiming for now. I hope everyone re-reads the last few pages at least and sees that there's no good argument for lynching me.

You realize it doesn't take a good argument for a player to be lynched, regardless of alignment, right?

Is there a point to this post?

Yes.  I'm trying to tell you that it's better to try than to just expect people to change their minds for no reason.  Also that, even if you think there is no "good argument" for your lynch, you could be lynched anyway, and if you don't want to be lynched, you'd be better served posting than just waiting for people to read.

I've been posting long posts for a while now and everyone save yuma seems to be ignoring them. I'm encouraging people to re-read these posts.

[Twistedarcher]

I will Andrew later sorry. Shorter posts draw the attention more than longer posts for me when on mobile. Rest assured I will reread

[Twistedarcher]

For now I am moving on.... to try and find who I actually think is scum.

I have zero problem with this, obviously.  I'm also reading and re-reading, looking for Andrew's partners.

TA's worth a re-read; I'd like to know if anyone else sees a significant difference between beginning of game TA and more recent TA.

Please post these differences so I know you aren't just echoing what Yuma said before. You say I'm worth a reread but make no indication on whether or not these supposed differences are scummy or towny.

[ashersky]

Just re-read TA.  He started off very odd, not at all like his IC self in ZM17, for example.  He's adjusted back to the norm in the more recent stuff though.  Not sure why.

I think you got it backwards TA, I did the re-read first.

[ashersky]

I don't know if it means you are scummy or towny now.  You started off feeling "off" to me, and normal TA is super town TA, so "off" TA is, well, not.

But your recent spate of posts (before this session) felt more like normal towny TA.

So you were having a bad day, or in a bad mood, or just ate some bad chicken, maybe.  I mean, do you have a reason why your posts felt different?

[Twistedarcher]

I don't know which ones you are talking about, but no I am pretty sure I won't be able to come up with a reason. Maybe I was busy with blitz? Or did this start after d1 of blitz. But seriously I doubt ill come up with a reason