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[Twistedarcher]

Or he's town who legitimately thinks you're scum. Why are you dismissing that option?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Or he's town who legitimately thinks you're scum. Why are you dismissing that option?

So he thinks I'm scum because I assumed there's three scum in this game and that apparently is a scumslip? Maybe because that's ridiculous.

[ashersky]

Or he's town who legitimately thinks you're scum. Why are you dismissing that option?

So he thinks I'm scum because I assumed there's three scum in this game and that apparently is a scumslip? Maybe because that's ridiculous.

How is that ridiculous, though?  As made clear in the OP, there's no way town has that information.  There's no way for town to infer that information.  It's just impossible to know as town.

But you stated it as fact.  Not, "I assume there are..." or "probably we're dealing with..."  And who actually knows the number of scum in a game?  Scum.

Occam's Razor points to you.  The fact that ADK backed you up immediately afterward, as well as adding in his knowledge of at least one and possibly more third parties, is very bad for him.  He's either your partner or a third party himself.  Because the OP also doesn't guaranteed a third party, and yet he says there is at least one.

No offense to newbies, but this is why these types of games are hard for newbies to play without a lot of experience.  Closed set-ups mean it's much easier for scum to "slip" and give away that they know more than they should.  That's what you did here.

Is it possible it was just a newbie mistake?  I mean, anything is possible.  It just isn't probable.  More likely it was a planned mistake to garner RobzIC status.  But really, any of these alternate realities are just conspiracy theory excuses for you.

You have let us know how many scum exist on accident.  Thanks for that.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Why isn't it probable, though? This is the first closed setup game I've played, and so I assumed I had a piece of information that I didn't actually have. As for the third party thing, mail-mi's opening post says its a possibility, and the impression I got was that RMM games are supposed to have a lot of oddball power roles, so I assumed that a third party was a high probability. But I guess making assumptions was a bad idea.

You jumping on us, and shraeye following along, seemed like the scummiest thing I've seen so far in this game, so I don't want my response to be automatically characterized as OMGUS. Even if ash is town I doubt I'm going to convince him at this point, so let's hear what everyone else has to say about this.

[Twistedarcher]

Ash, I think you need to slow down, especially in regards to ADK. You say [to Andrew]:

But you stated it as fact.  Not, "I assume there are..." or "probably we're dealing with..."  And who actually knows the number of scum in a game?  Scum.

Occam's Razor points to you.  The fact that ADK backed you up immediately afterward, as well as adding in his knowledge of at least one and possibly more third parties, is very bad for him.  He's either your partner or a third party himself.  Because the OP also doesn't guaranteed a third party, and yet he says there is at least one.

Here, you say that ADK is "adding in his knowledge of at least one...third party". You're tying this to the fact that he stated this as a fact, rather than "I assume" or "probably", but going back to look at ADK's post, we see:

There's only three scum but there's also possibly (probably) at least one third party, i.e. a serial killer, which both town and scum have to worry about.

These are the exact same reservations that you just said that wouldn't be scummy if made, it's only scummy when presented as a fact. But it's very clear ADK is putting this forward rather than presenting this as a fact.

Also, you seem to be saying that it's likely ADK is either "Andrew's partner or a third party himself". But it's impossible to pin both possibilities on him at once. If he's mafia, he has no clue if there's a third-party. If he's third-party, he has no confirmation on the number of scum. So saying he's either one of the other for a slip doesn't make sense when the two different things you are accusing him of don't have knowledge of one another.

I think there's a very good chance there's 3 scum personally. It's an assumption I make in a 13-player game. I don't recall seeing a 13-player game without 3 scum -- 2 is tough on mafia, 4 is tough on town. I don't think making that assumption and treating it like fact is truly scummy. I know that the scum team in Innovation (where I was scum) painted Xeiron (town) as scum for making the exact same mistake, when in reality, it's an assumption everyone makes. I'm sure that everyone coming in assumed 3 mafia -- I know I did. Yes, you want to make sure that you say "I am pretty sure there's 3 mafia, but I'm open to other possibilities / not getting blindsides by an extra scum", but saying "there's 3 mafia" doesn't indicate scumminess by itself, however.

What I do find scummy, though, is Andrew's reactions to all of this.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Wow. In my limited experience with mafia I have never seen or heard of a game with anything other than 2 or 3 mafia. Thus I assumed that's just how mafia is played and still nobody has told me otherwise. You're accusing me of a whole lot with not a lot to go on. All you have is that I thought there were 3 scum in this game and ADK posted right after me. Well that sure proves a lot.

I know you know a lot more about this game than I do and you can talk about occam's razor and setups IC status but sometimes even experienced players surprise me with their ability to completely narrow their focus on one little thing and magnify it so it looks like an absolute 100% scumtell when in actuality there's nothing there and they're just wrong, which is what you are.

[Twistedarcher]

Why isn't it probable, though? This is the first closed setup game I've played, and so I assumed I had a piece of information that I didn't actually have. As for the third party thing, mail-mi's opening post says its a possibility, and the impression I got was that RMM games are supposed to have a lot of oddball power roles, so I assumed that a third party was a high probability. But I guess making assumptions was a bad idea.

You jumping on us, and shraeye following along, seemed like the scummiest thing I've seen so far in this game, so I don't want my response to be automatically characterized as OMGUS. Even if ash is town I doubt I'm going to convince him at this point, so let's hear what everyone else has to say about this.

Who do you find scummier, Ash or Shraeye?

[AndrewisFTTW]

What I do find scummy, though, is Andrew's reactions to all of this.

Can you elaborate on what about my reactions are scummy?

[Twistedarcher]

Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?

I don't find the scum slip that compelling -- we did this same thing in innovation and it came from town, not scum -- but I DO find this response from Andrew scummy. It's too...calm?

vote:Andrew

It just reads scummy to me. Sorry, I can't give you better than that right now, and I'm not saying you are super duper 100% scum or anything, but I get a scummy vibe from it.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Why isn't it probable, though? This is the first closed setup game I've played, and so I assumed I had a piece of information that I didn't actually have. As for the third party thing, mail-mi's opening post says its a possibility, and the impression I got was that RMM games are supposed to have a lot of oddball power roles, so I assumed that a third party was a high probability. But I guess making assumptions was a bad idea.

You jumping on us, and shraeye following along, seemed like the scummiest thing I've seen so far in this game, so I don't want my response to be automatically characterized as OMGUS. Even if ash is town I doubt I'm going to convince him at this point, so let's hear what everyone else has to say about this.

Who do you find scummier, Ash or Shraeye?

Now that I've calmed down a little maybe shraeye, he basically just sheeped ash there. I realize that I'm probably prejudiced against ash after Super Mario Bros.

Do you find them scummy, or am I just being overly reactionary?

[ashersky]

Ash, I think you need to slow down, especially in regards to ADK. You say [to Andrew]:

But you stated it as fact.  Not, "I assume there are..." or "probably we're dealing with..."  And who actually knows the number of scum in a game?  Scum.

Occam's Razor points to you.  The fact that ADK backed you up immediately afterward, as well as adding in his knowledge of at least one and possibly more third parties, is very bad for him.  He's either your partner or a third party himself.  Because the OP also doesn't guaranteed a third party, and yet he says there is at least one.

Here, you say that ADK is "adding in his knowledge of at least one...third party". You're tying this to the fact that he stated this as a fact, rather than "I assume" or "probably", but going back to look at ADK's post, we see:

There's only three scum but there's also possibly (probably) at least one third party, i.e. a serial killer, which both town and scum have to worry about.

These are the exact same reservations that you just said that wouldn't be scummy if made, it's only scummy when presented as a fact. But it's very clear ADK is putting this forward rather than presenting this as a fact.

Also, you seem to be saying that it's likely ADK is either "Andrew's partner or a third party himself". But it's impossible to pin both possibilities on him at once. If he's mafia, he has no clue if there's a third-party. If he's third-party, he has no confirmation on the number of scum. So saying he's either one of the other for a slip doesn't make sense when the two different things you are accusing him of don't have knowledge of one another.

I think there's a very good chance there's 3 scum personally. It's an assumption I make in a 13-player game. I don't recall seeing a 13-player game without 3 scum -- 2 is tough on mafia, 4 is tough on town. I don't think making that assumption and treating it like fact is truly scummy. I know that the scum team in Innovation (where I was scum) painted Xeiron (town) as scum for making the exact same mistake, when in reality, it's an assumption everyone makes. I'm sure that everyone coming in assumed 3 mafia -- I know I did. Yes, you want to make sure that you say "I am pretty sure there's 3 mafia, but I'm open to other possibilities / not getting blindsides by an extra scum", but saying "there's 3 mafia" doesn't indicate scumminess by itself, however.

What I do find scummy, though, is Andrew's reactions to all of this.

Fair point on ADK's wording.  He did qualify his statement.

Unfair point on "good chance there's 3 scum" and the bolded line above.  C9++, a well-regarded and often-used normal setup for regular mafia games, is 13 players with plenty of chances for only two scum.  It's built in to the game.

There is no standard, and in a closed setup, assumptions like that are terrible for town.  I point you to DS9, where everyone and their mother assumed a maximum number of scum, and then we were all wrong when there was like seven scum in the game.

We need to play the game and read the players, not the mods.  Trying to figure out the mods is always the wrong way to play RMM.  It doesn't work.  I'm speaking from experience of designing and modding multiple successful RMM games, and watching town destroy themselves by making "well, ash would do X but not Y" arguments.

[Twistedarcher]

But do you think it's unreasonable / unlikely for town to come in assuming 3 mafia? We are not debating whether its "correct" or not, but whether its a likely assumption for someone to make without knowledge of the scum team. I know I made that assumption.

[yuma]

Andrew:

When did you realize that mafia games could have player amounts of more or less than 3?

[yuma]

And what games have you already been in previous to this?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I've been in Adventure Time and Star Wars which had 3 and 2 scum respectively. This is game 3 for me. I've checked out a lot of other games on this forum and they've all had either 2 or 3 scum. Obviously mafia games and customizable but for some reason I thought this wasn't any different given the size of the game.

[yuma]

Vote: yuma

this was never explained

[yuma]

Would some kind of DaySK work?

Vote: jimm
For implying that yuma is someone that we might want to lynch.

Don't like this line of thought, but it isn't necessarily scummy on either end... it reminds me of EFHW in Star Wars accusing me of wanting to lynch her when all I was doing was exploring the options fully (not being willing to give her full IC status until she was verifiably shown to be an IC) and I feel like Jimmmm is doing the same here (due diligence which is good) and xeiron is acting like EFHW (wanting to make sure he isn't mafia trying to prevent the creation of ICs) I agree more with Jimmm, but see where xeiron is coming from.

[yuma]

Yuma, if you had to use your DayVig right now, who would you pick?

Right now I would pick you for asking me to pick someone when I haven't been able to assemble enough data points to pick someone to dayvig nor have I received any feedback from town.

But before you asked my answer would have been "I don't know"

[yuma]

How does Andrew know the number of scum?  It's not listed anywhere--I just checked?  Scum slip.

vote: andrew

Yeah, I am going to call it here. I don't see it. Mostly I don't know of any situation where someone accused of this actually turned out to be scum. I know people accused of this have turned out to be town.

So really this amounts to nothing more me. Maybe not nothing, obviously it is something. But if I can use a comparison I haven't thought of before... if for me to want to lynch someone they have to get to 100 points, this is like 1 point in that bucket. A little bit, worth remembering down the road if other points get brought up, but certainly not enough to end day1 and lynch off and certainly not enough to call someone out as bonafide scum.

[yuma]

There's only three scum but there's also possibly (probably) at least one third party, i.e. a serial killer, which both town and scum have to worry about.

Why does ADK know the number of scum and seem so sure there's a third party?  Scum/SK slip, lynch tomorrow.

see above

[yuma]

ADK is flailing.

I'd suggest yuma dayvig ADK and we lynch Andrew.  Could be town's fastest win ever.

Yeah... cause flailing is always a scumtrait... except when he isn't flailing but rather reacting rather normally to an irrational response to a mistake that he made.

And now way am I going to use my dayvig over something like this. I am more likely to use it on you for suggesting as such (which isn't something I am likely to do, just giving you an idea of how much I dislike your suggestion).

[yuma]

Am I crazy for thinking that ash looks scummy here? Yeah, Andrew and I made a dumb assumption about the setup, it happens. Jumping in with "obviously they're scum, let's dayvig them and win" seems like a disproportionate response.

Given your knowledge of ash I don't think it is crazy. Given my knowledge of ash I have no read on him because of this. Ash has always had a "scumslip jumping" meta that has gotten him into far more trouble than good which he often conveniently forgets and is something that he replicates as both town and scum. So out of all of this the biggest thing I get is a giant zero, null read on ash.

[yuma]

Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?

I don't find the scum slip that compelling -- we did this same thing in innovation and it came from town, not scum -- but I DO find this response from Andrew scummy. It's too...calm?

vote:Andrew [/]

And this is the scummiest part if you ask me.

[yuma]

Or he's town who legitimately thinks you're scum. Why are you dismissing that option?

So he thinks I'm scum because I assumed there's three scum in this game and that apparently is a scumslip? Maybe because that's ridiculous.

Occam's Razor points to you. 

I think you need a lesson on how Occam's Razor works. Because as far as I can tell you are making just as many--if not more--assumptions that these guys are scum together in someway. At the basics both are naturally more likely to be town just given the odds and given what they have played on f.ds previously can very easily make that mistake which is proven by players making the same mistake before as town.

So don't just say "Occam's Razor" when it is actually your theory that makes the greater leaps (both being scum in a pool where they are less likely to be scum than town) and assumptions that aren't based of previous experiences and results.

[yuma]

Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?

I don't find the scum slip that compelling -- we did this same thing in innovation and it came from town, not scum -- but I DO find this response from Andrew scummy. It's too...calm?

vote:Andrew

It just reads scummy to me. Sorry, I can't give you better than that right now, and I'm not saying you are super duper 100% scum or anything, but I get a scummy vibe from it.

and now I am thinking TA is less scummy from it based off this.