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[Voltaire]

Someone cop me and I'll prove it to you.

Well, if Morgrim is scum, he's not a Goon.

[ashersky]

Morg, really?

And the "someone cop me" could be he's got a non-goon role, so he's fine being copped.  That claim came out of nowhere, and is not very believable.

I don't think he comes off the table, Jimmmmm.

[ashersky]

Someone cop me and I'll prove it to you.

Well, if Morgrim is scum, he's not a Goon.

Right.  Also makes him an even better lynch if he's scum.  Weakens the scum team more.

[Teproc]

Copping you would prove nothing, since the only possible Cop in the game would be a Goon Cop. This is also assuming the Mafia took 2 powers (if you're telling the truth and there's a cop I mean).

In any case, i don't know what to do about this. I guess I believe it ? As crazy as Morgrim is, I don't think he would just claim a random role out of nowhere.

[Jorbles]

The question mark is not to indicate that I am unsure about the lynch. It's to indicate that I'm not sure there's support for the lynch. I was serious about my vote, just unsure if there was support for it.

I definitely think there is support for it!

I know you are in, but most other people haven't commented too much about whether they'd be willing to vote for ash or not. Or not to my memory anyways.

[Jimmmmm]

I don't think he comes off the table, Jimmmmm.

Really? He's someone who if scum will become easier and easier to catch as time goes on, and if Town will produce actual helpful results and may be NKed.

[Voltaire]

The question mark is not to indicate that I am unsure about the lynch. It's to indicate that I'm not sure there's support for the lynch. I was serious about my vote, just unsure if there was support for it.

I definitely think there is support for it!

I know you are in, but most other people haven't commented too much about whether they'd be willing to vote for ash or not. Or not to my memory anyways.

Walrus is voting for ash. A couple people have said "ash is scummy" and not backed it up.

[ashersky]

Post Count:

1. Voltaire - 58
2. Walrus - 21
3. Robz - 63
4. Jimmmm - 68
5. ashersky - 70
6. faust - 50
7. Jorbles - 35
8. manda - 20
9. Teproc - 41
10. morgrim - 27
11. 2.7 - 67
12. mcmcsalot - 33

[ashersky]

That missed a few PPE, but it's fine for what I was lookign for.

Lurkers:  morg, Manda
Acti-lurkers: Walrus, Jorbles, Teproc, mcmc
Contributors: Volt, Robz, Jim, Ash, faust, 2.7

[Morgrim7]

I don't think he comes off the table, Jimmmmm.

Really? He's someone who if scum will become easier and easier to catch as time goes on, and if Town will produce actual helpful results and may be NKed.

Again, exactly why I claimed.

[ashersky]

I don't think he comes off the table, Jimmmmm.

Really? He's someone who if scum will become easier and easier to catch as time goes on, and if Town will produce actual helpful results and may be NKed.

I don't think Morgrim gets any easier to catch than this.  He's not going to flip a sanity switch all of a sudden and play a pro-town game.

[ashersky]

I don't think he comes off the table, Jimmmmm.

Really? He's someone who if scum will become easier and easier to catch as time goes on, and if Town will produce actual helpful results and may be NKed.

Again, exactly why I claimed.

To get taken off the lynch table and survive as long as possible as scum?

[Jimmmmm]

I don't think he comes off the table, Jimmmmm.

Really? He's someone who if scum will become easier and easier to catch as time goes on, and if Town will produce actual helpful results and may be NKed.

I don't think Morgrim gets any easier to catch than this.  He's not going to flip a sanity switch all of a sudden and play a pro-town game.

I'm not arguing he's playing a pro-Town game. But he has to produce a result every Day now. Say Tomorrow he says you targeted someone you didn't, or didn't target anyone and you did, you know for a fact that he's lying. Can you really say that Town Morgrim would be playing any differently. You know that anti-Town != Mafia.

[Voltaire]

I don't think he comes off the table, Jimmmmm.

Really? He's someone who if scum will become easier and easier to catch as time goes on, and if Town will produce actual helpful results and may be NKed.

Again, exactly why I claimed.

If scum kills you tonight, how is what you've done helpful?

[Robz888]

God, I am so mad. This claim put the ball totally in scum's court. They can decide to kill off one of our PRs, or they can decide to leave him and WIFOM us because he's not useful anyway.

I actually want to lynch him more now, because I don't believe Morgrim is actually stupid enough to make this claim as town.

[ashersky]

I don't think he comes off the table, Jimmmmm.

Really? He's someone who if scum will become easier and easier to catch as time goes on, and if Town will produce actual helpful results and may be NKed.

I don't think Morgrim gets any easier to catch than this.  He's not going to flip a sanity switch all of a sudden and play a pro-town game.

I'm not arguing he's playing a pro-Town game. But he has to produce a result every Day now. Say Tomorrow he says you targeted someone you didn't, or didn't target anyone and you did, you know for a fact that he's lying. Can you really say that Town Morgrim would be playing any differently. You know that anti-Town != Mafia.

No, I agree with you on the anti-town doesn't mean he's mafia thing.  It's just, I don't see him as a loss if we lynch him, and the upside that he's could be fake claiming is there.

This is one of those times where I personally don't want the real tracker to out himself if possible, because Tracker is actually useful (no offense 2.7).  So if we feel that Morgrim is lying, and possible a non-Goon role due to his Godfather claim (who did that in Samurai and Ninjas? sudgy?), he's a very good lynch candidate.

I get that he's going to be easy to catch if he's a lying, on a future day.  Or he says he tracked 2.7 who targeted Faust and we get nowhere.  Or he says he tracked a scumpartner, who lies to cover up for him.  In fact, if he's lying scum, that's exactly what he does to get away with this claim.  "I tracked my partner, who targeted player B."  Partner confirms, now Player B looks like a town PR.

[Robz888]

Yep, I agree with ashersky.

[Jimmmmm]

Or he says he tracked a scumpartner, who lies to cover up for him.  In fact, if he's lying scum, that's exactly what he does to get away with this claim.  "I tracked my partner, who targeted player B."  Partner confirms, now Player B looks like a town PR.

But surely this unravels very quickly if we lynch one of them?

[Robz888]

I think a risky, sort of nuts, but not altogether unthinkable scum!Morgrim plan is more likely than a completely insane, out of nowhere, actively detrimental town!Morgrim plan.

[ashersky]

Or he says he tracked a scumpartner, who lies to cover up for him.  In fact, if he's lying scum, that's exactly what he does to get away with this claim.  "I tracked my partner, who targeted player B."  Partner confirms, now Player B looks like a town PR.

But surely this unravels very quickly if we lynch one of them?

IF we lynch one of them.  Say someone most people feel is towny is that partner.  And Morgrim comes in tomorrow and says:

"I tracked Voltaire last night.  He targeted no one."

Voltaire (just chose someone randomly) comes in and says, "yep, didn't target anyone."

Are you going to press for a Morg or Volt lynch at that point?  On what basis?  On the "well, ashersky thought this might happen on D1" argument?  That won't fly.  I mean, either Volt really didn't target anyone, or he's Morgrim's partner, or both.



A better argument would be to say that the real Tracker could counterclaim on D2 or D3 or whatever, leaving the liar alive while the real one tracks others to try to catch a partner.  But I assume a fakeclaiming scum would also do the night kill to insulate his partners as much as possible.


I think the only thing off the table in my mind is Morgrim being the Traitor.  Unless he's trying to get his scumpartners to kill him, he's not fakeclaiming like that.

[Robz888]

Especially given we moved off 2.7 lightning fast when he claimed. Morgrim might have expected the same treatment.

[Teproc]

Those are good points actually. He will be a major liability if he survives the nights (which I think he will), especially since Tracker is not a conclusive investigative role by any stretch of the imagination. Mafia could even have a JOAT with 1-shot ninja.

The idea that we can catch him later is very risky. He can keep saying he targeted dead people, or scumbuddies. He doesn't even need to go for the gambit of making them seem like PRs, he can just say "I targeted X who targeted no one", then X confirms.

Also, if Mafia has day chat they could have concocted such a plan after the 2.7 claim or something. Morgrim had confirmed his crazy meta and 2.7's claim clearly saved him for the day, proving that a claim would be effective day 1.

Actually, let's vote: Morgrim

PPE : 2 unread.

[2.71828.....]

Ash, I take no offense at Morgrim's PR being better than mine.  Which is why I didn't feel too bad claiming when I did.  Which is why it was terrible for Morgrim to claim when he did.

The reason my wagon dissipated was because it was a believable and relatively harmless claim.  claiming tracker now is not harmless to town.  It hurts town.

Vote: Morgrim

PPE: Teproc's vote

[ashersky]

<b>Can we get a vote count?</b>

[ashersky]

Can we get a vote count?