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[Voltaire]

So I guess I just don't see how you can call him out for not scum hunting based off the context of that post.

All I can say is I was doing a re-read, saw multiple people posting stuff like that, and pointed it out. It was more than just that post. If you don't read it the same way, so be it.

I think my main point is that you called out two people for not scum hunting when they weren't online to scum hunt. You called it weird. To me weird in this game = scummy. I don't see how anyone can be scummy for going to bed or otherwise being busy and not posting and not scum hunting when they aren't online...

And I think you likely didn't check whether or not they had posted and were just trying to drum up some suspicion on players who 1. yes haven't scum hunted because 2. they haven't been online much to do so. Combine that with your case vote on lio and I find it suspicious.

I sit on my computer all day at work and check these threads religiously. It's entirely possible I project that onto people who can't.

Most importantly, weird != scummy. If I mean scummy, I'll say scummy.

[nkirbit]

So far I have a town read on ash for his thorough thinking-through of claiming, and a smaller townread on Voltgloss for helping improve it, and the everytimeheseemsobvtown town read on UoS for more plan help. I see lio as slightly scummy for his reaction to UoS. And a whole lotta null on everyone else.

I don't believe his early claim was an accident, I think it was deliberate and planned.  Whether for good or ill is unclear, of course.  Could also just be for annoying Yuma for reactions or encouraging others to just jump in without thinking (again, whether this is town or scum behavior from him is debatable).  But I don't think it was an unthinking claim.

In case it wasn't clear, I do not think ash made a mistake at all. It was obviously a conscious choice.

There have been lots of weird posts in this game. Like these:

I'm reading it, but don't expect any contributions from me.

I really do not like this attitude. Scumhunt!

I think we need to work extra hard to create interactions and stuff so we get away of theory talk.

And then nothing. Scumhunt!

PPE: Posts.

I dislike calling out two players for not scumhunting, what, 12 hours into the game?  If someone hasn't scumhunted for entire days, call them out then, but this does seem forced.  It's perfectly natural for town not to scumhunt their first posts of the game.. there's just not much at that point!

I agree with Yuma that this seems to be Voltaire stretching for reasons to call out players.

However, I don't necessarily find this scummy.  I don't stretching for reasons to vote someone early day1 is fine, because it does get interactions going, and is pro-town.  And I don't think that scum want to put themselves in the obvious position of calling out multiple players early day1 for what can be interpreted as bad reasons.  Unless it's WIFOM, but who knows.

[shraeye]

Unvote

Reasonable response.

Those who have played with mail-mi, question:  his behavior so far here - how does it compare to previous games?

What are you referring to when you say "his behavior so far"...what are you noticing and asking about in particular?

[nkirbit]

I really don't like the massclaim here, and think pushing for it early day1 is scummy.

Vote: Ashersky

I also dislike his reaction to Yuma saying he didn't like the claim and probably wouldn't participate in it.  Instead of accepting that another player, who is likely town, thinks it's a bad idea, he continued to push it with saying that it was no problem, and they'd get Yuma's claim by process of elimination.

I just read Ash as pushing a plan as opposed to actually trying to figure out if the plan is good for town or not, and it's making me uncomfortable.

[Voltaire]

I really don't like the massclaim here, and think pushing for it early day1 is scummy.

[...]

I just read Ash as pushing a plan as opposed to actually trying to figure out if the plan is good for town or not, and it's making me uncomfortable.

Why do you think that's scummy? I think it's been pretty clearly laid out why the plan is pro-town. Ash himself did a good job at the start. What makes you think he wasn't trying to figure out of it was pro-town?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I really don't like the massclaim here, and think pushing for it early day1 is scummy.

Vote: Ashersky

I also dislike his reaction to Yuma saying he didn't like the claim and probably wouldn't participate in it.  Instead of accepting that another player, who is likely town, thinks it's a bad idea, he continued to push it with saying that it was no problem, and they'd get Yuma's claim by process of elimination.

I just read Ash as pushing a plan as opposed to actually trying to figure out if the plan is good for town or not, and it's making me uncomfortable.

I was feeling a bit of the same thing, actually, particularly with the switch to who to vote for being decided now, but does it feel that different from standard town behavior coming from Ashersky?  You've played with him much more than I, but that fits the games I've seen him play so far.

[nkirbit]

I guess in regards to Ash:

In the recent Blitz game when he was town, Ash proposed his plan, and immediately justified his reasoning.  He started by trying to convince everyone that his plan was pro-town, because he wanted it to happen.

Here, his plan was proposed very differently.  He didn't start with justification, that came later.  In fact, he started posts with language such as, "Further to this", indicating he was still thinking through his plan even after he proposed it.  Which would be fine, if it wasn't completely different from what I have seen from town!Ash before.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I think nkirbit's getting at the way Ash was pushing it and pushing for it to happen NOW (as with the claiming Amy Pond), rather than the proposal of the plan itself.  I could see that being scummy, in isolation, but I could also see it being Ash excited about a plan.

What do you old timers think?

[Voltaire]

I was feeling a bit of the same thing, actually, particularly with the switch to who to vote for being decided now, but does it feel that different from standard town behavior coming from Ashersky?

What do you mean by the bold?

[nkirbit]

No, that's not what I'm saying.  I'm still working through exactly why I'm feeling the way I do about it.

I think that if town!Ash thought mass-claiming was a good idea, he would have good reasons for doing so.  It's not like Ash to not have reasons as a town member.

Given that he had reasons, why didn't he just dump them all initially, get us to mass-claim if it's really what was best for town, then get on with it?  This isn't what happened.  He's justified it bit by bit.

I just think if Ash were town and really thought mass-claiming were good, he would have made a concise, initial post explaining exactly why it was good rather than leave his reasoning scattered over several pages.  You know, to make sure we actually mass claim, because he think it's pro-town.

He didn't do this, so it makes me think that either Ash isn't town, or he actually doesn't think that massclaiming is good.  I don't think it's the second, since massclaiming isn't obviously bad like past plans have been.  So I lean towards the first.

[Voltaire]

Given that he had reasons, why didn't he just dump them all initially, get us to mass-claim if it's really what was best for town, then get on with it?  This isn't what happened.  He's justified it bit by bit.

I'll give you that it wasn't all in one post, but it was pretty quick -

Massclaim now.

Only lynches show alignment.  NKs don't help us.  Being town sucks in this setup.

I am Amy Pond.  I don't know what that means.

Further to this, here's an idea.

12 alive, right?  3 scum, 3 Town PR, 6 VT.  Mass claim reduces our mislynch chances from 9/12 overall (8/11 per townie) to 6/9 overall (5/8 per VT, 6/8 per PR).  Finding 3 scum in 8 is easier that 3 scum in 11.

We lose 1 or 2 PRs N1, depending on who the bad guys kill.  We might get a baddie killed by the Vig, too.  Worst case scenario, all misses and we have 8 alive D2 with 3 scum, but 1 PR remaining no matter what.  I think we're probably better off than that.

So I do support the mass claim.

The VT was a derpclaim before letting the rest of town talk, but I don't find anything suspicious about still figuring things out in such a unique setup. I know that I certainly didn't peg massclaim (later shifted to PR claim) as the best idea until reading other's (presumably town) points.

I do not see ash's actions as scum actions.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I was feeling a bit of the same thing, actually, particularly with the switch to who to vote for being decided now, but does it feel that different from standard town behavior coming from Ashersky?

What do you mean by the bold?

Either late last night or this morning, Ash switch from the plan talk to "Well, I don't have anything else to go on, how about a random lynch?"

I meant the things along that line, but yeah I guess I was pretty unclear, sorry.

[Jorbles]

I don't see ash's actions as being particularly scummy here. He likes to attempt unusual strategies and I don't think there's much consistency with how he presents them.

I don't remember him pushing for a random lynch. Do you want to build on that UoS?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I don't actually think Ash made a derpclaim, I think he claimed deliberately to try to get us claiming.  I just don't believe that implicates him as Scum or Town, one way or another.

[Voltaire]

I don't actually think Ash made a derpclaim, I think he claimed deliberately to try to get us claiming.  I just don't believe that implicates him as Scum or Town, one way or another.

I agree with the bold. We're using different words for different things. Maybe I'm using "derp" wrong.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

This exchange is what I was refering to.

How about a random D1 lynch?

What does that possibly gain us?  Why not at least try to make a good choice.

I have zero information to go on.  At least a flip with info would help that.  I've seen good responses to my claiming idea, both for and against.  I've seen little scummy behavior from anyone, at all.  Mail-mi's bad joke about his PM is all there is to go on.

Lurkers?  We could lynch a lurker I suppose.

I find that odd.  And like whoever it was (nkirbit? Voltaire?) when I say odd, I mean odd here, not necessarily scummy.

I think it's pretty clearly a bad idea, but I don't think it gains Ash anything if he's scum anyway.  I don't really know what to think of this.  Thoughts?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I don't actually think Ash made a derpclaim, I think he claimed deliberately to try to get us claiming.  I just don't believe that implicates him as Scum or Town, one way or another.

I agree with the bold. We're using different words for different things. Maybe I'm using "derp" wrong.

I take derp to mean a stupid screwup done on accident.

[Voltaire]

I think it's pretty clearly a bad idea, but I don't think it gains Ash anything if he's scum anyway.  I don't really know what to think of this.  Thoughts?

My opinion is anyone calling for a random lynch is trying to set a really cheesy trap for scum to catch them saying "Yeah guyz let's randolynch!" Or is scum themselves playing that WIFOM. Nobody will go along with random lynch. It's just starting the game with one fewer player unless you have interactions to look at.

[yuma]

I think nkirbit's getting at the way Ash was pushing it and pushing for it to happen NOW (as with the claiming Amy Pond), rather than the proposal of the plan itself.  I could see that being scummy, in isolation, but I could also see it being Ash excited about a plan.

What do you old timers think?

I think his claiming was more a reaction to me than anything else when I said, "you first."

It is interesting because there are 2 scenarios I think of here.

1- is that he claimed mostly to get at my goat, after I egged him on. And also because he probably thought claiming was a good thing to do in the first place so why not?

2- is that if he says "no, I won't claim" to my suggestion that he go first then that lessens the credibility of his plan to claim a little bit. I think that reaction is more likely to be mafia than town as I think he could be worried about people saying "you want us to mass claim, but aren't willing to do it yourself? What?"

I think the first is most likely though. That just seemed like a typical ashersky reaction to me egging him on.

[Voltaire]

I think the first is most likely though. That just seemed like a typical ashersky reaction to me egging him on.

Why did you egg him on?

[shraeye]

This exchange is what I was refering to.

How about a random D1 lynch?

What does that possibly gain us?  Why not at least try to make a good choice.

I have zero information to go on.  At least a flip with info would help that.  I've seen good responses to my claiming idea, both for and against.  I've seen little scummy behavior from anyone, at all.  Mail-mi's bad joke about his PM is all there is to go on.

Lurkers?  We could lynch a lurker I suppose.

I find that odd.  And like whoever it was (nkirbit? Voltaire?) when I say odd, I mean odd here, not necessarily scummy.

I think it's pretty clearly a bad idea, but I don't think it gains Ash anything if he's scum anyway.  I don't really know what to think of this.  Thoughts?

Why point it out if you don't find it necessarily scummy?  Why tell us it was odd?

[yuma]

I think the first is most likely though. That just seemed like a typical ashersky reaction to me egging him on.

Why did you egg him on?

because he said we should mass claim...

[yuma]

Why point it out if you don't find it necessarily scummy?  Why tell us it was odd?

had the same thought. And the same thought when volt said weird!=scummy. I understand weird!=scummy to some people, but why mention it?

[Voltaire]

I think the first is most likely though. That just seemed like a typical ashersky reaction to me egging him on.

Why did you egg him on?

because he said we should mass claim...

Right, but what I'm saying is, what if that was a bad idea for town? What if he's a PR? I understand it as a means of testing how serious he is, but it seems like it could have gone badly.

[ashersky]

A final note on the actual plan, as I see we've tabled that discussion overnight:

I will put little credence into any PR claim from D2 on.  Guilt result?  Scum lie.  Don't lynch me I'm Roleblocker?  Scum lie.  Our PRs have smaller chances of being believed and are more likely to be mislynched if we don't claim on D1 (or find another plan).