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[UmbrageOfSnow]

How about a random D1 lynch?

What does that possibly gain us?  Why not at least try to make a good choice.

[ashersky]

How about a random D1 lynch?

What does that possibly gain us?  Why not at least try to make a good choice.

I have zero information to go on.  At least a flip with info would help that.  I've seen good responses to my claiming idea, both for and against.  I've seen little scummy behavior from anyone, at all.  Mail-mi's bad joke about his PM is all there is to go on.

Lurkers?  We could lynch a lurker I suppose.

[Voltgloss]

Oh hey, this started right when I fell asleep.  Just woke up and reading now.

[ashersky]

Oh hey, this started right when I fell asleep.  Just woke up and reading now.

Vote: voltgloss for sleeping.  Also, don't forget, you have daychat.

[Voltgloss]

Hardy-har, ash.  No, I don't have daychat, as I am not scum. 

ash's plan is worth careful consideration.  He's correct to note that one of our biggest disadvantages is the lack of info from nightkills, and the significant chance of late roleclaims being unproveably fake.  The problem is that it basically sacrifices the cop, barring a lucky roleblock.  I think we have to assume the mafia, at least, will target the cop N1.

My reaction is similar to yuma's - "how has this played out in mafiascum."  We have, what, 5 completed games there in this setup?  That's more research available than we typically have.  I'm going to try to review those games, eye-searing setup be damned.

On first read, I am not following UoS's plan.  It feels like it combines the worst of both worlds:  guaranteeing scum a PR kill every night + catering to scum's ability to masquerade as a PR they have killed.  What am I missing?

+1 to yuma for his "fine and useful tool" comment.

vote: nkirbit for the scummiest reaction to ash's plan.  "Eh I won't be talking about this" followed by "here's me talking about this" smells a bit to me of his partner in daychat going "dude it will look suspicious if you totally refuse to engage with town in their main topic of discussion."

Here's a thought:  What if the cop, vig, and roleblocker all claim generic Power Role?  I.e., the power roles are all identified and we know they're IC's, but scum don't know which ones are the highest priority targets?  Seems to me that significantly increases the likelihood of our cop surviving N1, and moderately increases the chance of the two scumteams shooting the same target.  While also ensuring that none of our PRs target any other PRs tonight.

[ashersky]

unvote

I like VG's update to my plan.

3 PR claims, don't need to be named.  I'm the only one to have given a flavor name so far anyway.  Everyone can say VT/Not VT and be done with it.

If we 4 or more PR claims, we know where to look.

[Eevee]

Nice to see you again, Volt!

I don't know about claiming. No opinion.

yuma's reaction to all this planning is the most interesting thing to me this far. he opposes it in a pleasant, sort of agreeable way. while I like everyone playing nice, I was expecting something different.

vote: yuma

I think we need to work extra hard to create interactions and stuff so we get away of theory talk.

[liopoil]

I oppose claiming. creating IC's is the idea, right? I'm all for that, but here's the thing: the reason IC's are good is that they can't be mislynched. they also lead town and stuff, but that's not a big deal. however, our PR's can't be mislynched anyway, as long as we give them a chance to claim at L-1. sure, scum can fakeclaim, but they can do that in a massclaim anyway. so we have 3 people who are effectively ICs. the only other benefit is making sure our cop doesn't target the vig, so I might be willing to have just the vig claim.

[shraeye]

I'm here.  I'm going to pass on the theory talk, though.  I'm just tired of it at this point, haha.

I'm reading it, but don't expect any contributions from me.

well let UoS and ash talk themselves to death about it. I mean, they can talk all they want, but ultimately it isn't going to happen I don't think. There will always be people resistant to plans or claiming of any sort. Even if it is in best interest of town--or appears to be in the best interest of town--there will always be people like me who are saying "too risky for the supposed rewards."

You can put me firmly in the camp of "too risky for supposed rewards".

Also, ash you are taking the wrong perspective here

No matter how amazing our scum hunting may be, unless we lynch scum D1-D2-D3, we're going to lose to one scum or the other.  Imagine a game where the number of players decreases each day, but you learn nothing about them from the mod.  That's this game.

We'll have people that just assume the NK victim was town.  But imagining there are still 3 scum alive when there are 2, or 1, actually makes scum hunting that much harder.

We are in a 300-like bad spot.  I think the mass claiming, (really, the PR claiming with no counterclaims), is the way out of it.

You are acting like there is a 3-man scumteam that get to coordinate 2 kills each night.  nkirbit and mail-mi both pointed out that this is a 2+1 scum scenario, where it's possible that the scum are actively and earnestly hunting eachother both at night and during the day.

Yuma, as we continue to talk theory, would you like to explain how we can successfully scumhunt in this game?

The same way we do every game.  Looking for opportunism, survivalism, and other scum traits.  We won't have nightkills to analyze, but really I feel like analyzing nightkills hasn't really gained us too much in recent games.  I feel like many mafia teams kill specifically to create a certain thread of speculation/analysis.  We WILL get the lynch info, and even more info when we lynch scum.

How about a random D1 lynch?

What does that possibly gain us?  Why not at least try to make a good choice.

I have zero information to go on.  At least a flip with info would help that.  I've seen good responses to my claiming idea, both for and against.  I've seen little scummy behavior from anyone, at all.  Mail-mi's bad joke about his PM is all there is to go on.

Lurkers?  We could lynch a lurker I suppose.

We have zero information right now, because the game is 12 hours old. Umbrage said my thoughts exactly.

[shraeye]

vote: nkirbit for the scummiest reaction to ash's plan.  "Eh I won't be talking about this" followed by "here's me talking about this" smells a bit to me of his partner in daychat going "dude it will look suspicious if you totally refuse to engage with town in their main topic of discussion."

I agree.  Vote: nkirbit

[yuma]

How about a random D1 lynch?

What does that possibly gain us?  Why not at least try to make a good choice.

I have zero information to go on.  At least a flip with info would help that.  I've seen good responses to my claiming idea, both for and against.  I've seen little scummy behavior from anyone, at all.  Mail-mi's bad joke about his PM is all there is to go on.

Lurkers?  We could lynch a lurker I suppose.

Just because you have zero information RIGHT NOW. Doesn't mean we will have zero information toward the end of day?

Are you saying your reads don't change over the course of day1? Cause mine certainly do. And I would love to have some information day2 to work with as well. Wouldn't you?

[yuma]

yuma's reaction to all this planning is the most interesting thing to me this far. he opposes it in a pleasant, sort of agreeable way. while I like everyone playing nice, I was expecting something different.

vote: yuma

But why is the opposite of what you would expect scummy?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Here's a thought:  What if the cop, vig, and roleblocker all claim generic Power Role?  I.e., the power roles are all identified and we know they're IC's, but scum don't know which ones are the highest priority targets?  Seems to me that significantly increases the likelihood of our cop surviving N1, and moderately increases the chance of the two scumteams shooting the same target.  While also ensuring that none of our PRs target any other PRs tonight.

I like this better than what either Ash or I said.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Vote: Liopoil

I oppose claiming. creating IC's is the idea, right? I'm all for that, but here's the thing: the reason IC's are good is that they can't be mislynched. they also lead town and stuff, but that's not a big deal. however, our PR's can't be mislynched anyway, as long as we give them a chance to claim at L-1. sure, scum can fakeclaim, but they can do that in a massclaim anyway. so we have 3 people who are effectively ICs. the only other benefit is making sure our cop doesn't target the vig, so I might be willing to have just the vig claim.

For pushing in a horrendous direction of trusting L-1 claims in this game, and either not reading the setup or any of our discussion, or scummily trying to muddy the waters with bad arguments that will both derail good planning and sew confusion in the other people who said they are skimming.

Also, IF WE DON'T READ THE THREAD, WE CAN'T CATCH SCUM!

[Voltaire]

Boy missing starts sucks.

Much of what I was going to say based on what I read last night has already been said. Mafiascum shows a huge advantage for SK in this game it seems. I looked at the end of their most recent game and it was the town playing kingmaker between the last scum and the SK (the SK got away with seeming town I think).

I think POE is the best way to narrow our results.

The beauty of a mass claim and regular scumhunt within a smaller pool is that it negates the importance of PRs to an extent that we don't get so upset when they die at night, and we NEVER mislynch them.

Yes, yes, and yes. The problem is that we need everyone to participate, and yuma is in this game, and nkirbit has already signaled no. I don't like ash going ahead and claiming VT immediately, but this reads overeager town to be as opposed to scum. My biggest town read right now is ash.

I like Volt's (argh) update to ash's plan. Unless I'm not seeing something it's best of both worlds?

Looking at it like town vs 3 evils is of course going to underestimate our position, because the SK and mafia are fighting each other as well.

I do not like the nkirbit votes one bit. He's simply pointing something out that no-one else had pointed out yet.

How about a random D1 lynch?

Really? Just...really?

Lurkers?  We could lynch a lurker I suppose.

This, on the other hand, is good and is usually good. And I think daychatting mafia are going to naturally post less, and have to counter that.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I don't get Ash's weird desire to figure out who we're lynching Day 1 RIGHT NOW!!!1!

But it's probably some weird fish-for-reactions gambit or something, I don't know.

I don't believe his early claim was an accident, I think it was deliberate and planned.  Whether for good or ill is unclear, of course.  Could also just be for annoying Yuma for reactions or encouraging others to just jump in without thinking (again, whether this is town or scum behavior from him is debatable).  But I don't think it was an unthinking claim.

Scum have safe flavorclaims, Town have safe flavors, Amy Pond is gorgeous, um.......  I don't know where I'm going with this.

I think he's feeling townish.

[shraeye]

Looking at it like town vs 3 evils is of course going to underestimate our position, because the SK and mafia are fighting each other as well.

I do not like the nkirbit votes one bit. He's simply pointing something out that no-one else had pointed out yet.

Do you really think that the quote you pulled is why I voted for nkirbit?  Did you read what Voltgloss said?

[Voltaire]

Do you really think that the quote you pulled is why I voted for nkirbit?  Did you read what Voltgloss said?

Yes? I mean, only you know why you voted for nkirbit, but I can only assume it's you agreeing with Voltgloss. I read him more as "don't want to talk about this" followed by "town is missing something."

[Voltaire]

I read him more as "don't want to talk about this" followed by "town is missing something so I should talk about it anyway."

Finishing my thought better.

[Jorbles]

yuma's reaction to all this planning is the most interesting thing to me this far. he opposes it in a pleasant, sort of agreeable way. while I like everyone playing nice, I was expecting something different.

vote: yuma

Which is how he'd normally oppose a plan he disagrees with, at least for a while and then if it looks like town really wants to do it he says firmly that he won't participate. He normally starts out nice about it though. This reads like normal yuma for me (which is null for the record).

I think Voltgloss's update to the plan is better than the original proposed one, but what happens if we get 4 people claiming PR? Then we have a serious problem.

Here's a potential disaster scenario:
We get 4 claimants.
We mislynch a PR.
The other two PRs are killed at night. We've given up all our PRs for 1 scum who then claims to be Vig and that he NKed the scum claimant so we're not even sure that he's scum and then the SK kills him at night so we never find out that he was scum all along.

[Voltaire]

Although this I think is actually one of the biggest problems with ash's plan. It /outs the cop immediately. The cop is going to be the SK's number one NK target if known because a cop result on mafia doesn't lose the game for mafia... there is another partner that can possibly salvage the game. A result on SK is game over for SK. So /outing the cop means a really good opportunity for the SK to potentially ride easy.

Ignoring the part where we now have a better proposed plan, isn't this wrong? Can't SK also claim vig after D1 and have at least someone of a chance of being believed? If they're countered sure they're done, but they could have killed the vig or mafia could have killed the vig. Then I guess mafia knows they're lying and kills them...so maybe you were right.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Why would we lynch the 4th claimant?  At least on Day 1 it means 2/3 scum don't have a fake-claim, and it really opens them up to being targeted by the other scum team at night.

If 4 people claim, by all means, I say we leave it alone.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Also, no way am I believing someone about to be lynched on Day 4 or whatever claiming they are the Vigilante, too many chances for it to be scum with no counterclaim.

That's one of the disadvantages we have in this setup.

[Jorbles]

Also, no way am I believing someone about to be lynched on Day 4 or whatever claiming they are the Vigilante, too many chances for it to be scum with no counterclaim.

That's one of the disadvantages we have in this setup.

This is very very true, and not just for Vig. We can't trust any uncounterclaimed PR claims in this setup.

[yuma]

Although this I think is actually one of the biggest problems with ash's plan. It /outs the cop immediately. The cop is going to be the SK's number one NK target if known because a cop result on mafia doesn't lose the game for mafia... there is another partner that can possibly salvage the game. A result on SK is game over for SK. So /outing the cop means a really good opportunity for the SK to potentially ride easy.

Ignoring the part where we now have a better proposed plan, isn't this wrong? Can't SK also claim vig after D1 and have at least someone of a chance of being believed? If they're countered sure they're done, but they could have killed the vig or mafia could have killed the vig. Then I guess mafia knows they're lying and kills them...so maybe you were right.

Yeah, I didn't extrapolate it all the way out, but as you say I still think that is a flaw that makes the game significantly easier for SK. If the SK had killed the vig then, yes that is good spot to be in as only the SK has the vital information of who the vig is. But why would the SK kill the vig when the SK has a chance to kill the cop. So maybe on consecutive days the SK performs the kill on both the cop and the vig.

Mod question: If a player is targeted twice in the same night by different players will the flavor the next morning reflect that?

That is will the flavor have something like, "2 bullet holes were in his chest"? Or will the player just be announced dead? Also will SK kills and mafia kills and vig kills have a different way of killing or are all kills created equal?

I ask this question because if flavor is important we might be able to deduce from the number of kills whether or not SK, mafia or Vigs are still alive. If there are three separate kills the night before, then it is possible that all three types are still alive. But if only two deaths occur but there are three bullets, we know three. But if no flavor is given to signify that we are left wondering "is it two or three? and 2 shot the same player."