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[EFHW]

EFHW, that case seems way too convenient to me. Basically, your entire case is that he hasn't been around -- but we know that he's been V/LA.

He was v/la Monday through Friday.  The game started the previous Tuesday.  Today he has not been any kind of presence.  And when he does post, there is very little content.  I don't see how that's convenient for me.  I would prefer he was playing actively and contributing as a town member.  But he isn't.  Also sudgy's survival overnight and his defense of sudgy (without any discussion, of course) and his hint that he is a lover all come together to suggest him as sudgy's scum lover.

[EFHW]

Also, EFHW, I haven't seen you saying anything about me being scum.  When did you get a scumread on me?

You don't remember my being about to hammer you when you claimed?

[sudgy]

Also, EFHW, I haven't seen you saying anything about me being scum.  When did you get a scumread on me?

You don't remember my being about to hammer you when you claimed?

Things changed after my claim.  A lot of people were saying that I shouldn't be lynched anymore, and I was just assuming that that's what everybody thought, since I didn't see anybody still saying a scumread on me.

[EFHW]

Guys. Nkirbit is not dead, scum kill got doctored/blocked. Don't ask me how I know.

I have reason to believe this, as well.

If you have reason to believe this, then why were you doing all that speculating earlier as if you didn't know?

I have reason to believe I could have happened but not as to if it did. If mail mi is certain is happened I could probably explain how.

This still bothers me.  It means you were not being straightforward in your speculations earlier.  Now I know people have information they need to keep quiet about, and I'm not jumping to any conclusions, but the contrast between your earlier apparent confusion and current confidence does make me worry that the earlier comments were strategy and not genuine questions. 

[EFHW]

Also, EFHW, I haven't seen you saying anything about me being scum.  When did you get a scumread on me?

You don't remember my being about to hammer you when you claimed?

Things changed after my claim.  A lot of people were saying that I shouldn't be lynched anymore, and I was just assuming that that's what everybody thought, since I didn't see anybody still saying a scumread on me.

That wasn't my impression.  In fact, as it became likely that there were more lovers in the picture, your lover status became less of a protection and people were talking about lynching you anyway.  I'll see if I can find the quote.

[EFHW]

Here is the series of quotes:

I believe his claim, but that doesn't make him town...

and this. Even if Sudgy isn't town, his lover probably is.

If we cannot lynch scum if their lover is town.
How do you plan to win?

If we think Sudgy is scum, it's worth lynching him, even if a town member dies with him.
But I don't think Sudgy is scum

Looking back, I see liopoil and xeiron were the strongest proponents of this course, so it makes sense that it died down with their deaths.

[EFHW]

I don't know. I didn't think he was scummy yesterday but he's near the top of my list for today.

What changed?  This shift just happened overnight?

A lot of it is based on setup speculation..the more I've thought about it, I just don't think his claim was that towny.

How many times have we had someone claim mason/lover WITHOUT their partner confirming it? I would assume that in almost every case, where it's town/town, both partners claim, as Xeiron and Lio did. Now, it's a little iffy because of Sudgy's weird claim, but I just think it's fairly likely that he's scum, either by himself or as part of a scum-town lover pair.

I'm not saying I'm pro-sudgy, but we explicitly told his lover NOT to claim.  So the lack of claim can't reflect on him either way.

[mail-mi]

Guys. Nkirbit is not dead, scum kill got doctored/blocked. Don't ask me how I know.

Seriously?  Seriously??  That's what you come out with?  You've been away from a flipping week and THAT is where you start?  Good gravy.  Please give some thoughts on D1.

Okay. Next post

[raerae]

Guys. Nkirbit is not dead, scum kill got doctored/blocked. Don't ask me how I know.

Seriously?  Seriously??  That's what you come out with?  You've been away from a flipping week and THAT is where you start?  Good gravy.  Please give some thoughts on D1.

Okay. Next post

What are you doing?  Do you not even want to be in this game? 

[raerae]

People voting for mail-mi: STOP.  I'm pretty sure we're in mylo at this point, and we don't want scum quickhammering suddenly.

Also, EFHW, I haven't seen you saying anything about me being scum.  When did you get a scumread on me?

PPE: The reason my lovers aren't claiming is because if they do one of us will get NKed.  Not claiming is a lot safer.

One of you???

[sudgy]

People voting for mail-mi: STOP.  I'm pretty sure we're in mylo at this point, and we don't want scum quickhammering suddenly.

Also, EFHW, I haven't seen you saying anything about me being scum.  When did you get a scumread on me?

PPE: The reason my lovers aren't claiming is because if they do one of us will get NKed.  Not claiming is a lot safer.

One of you???

One of me or them.  With just me, some doctor could potentially save me.  With two, they wouldn't know which would get saved.

[EFHW]

Guys. Nkirbit is not dead, scum kill got doctored/blocked. Don't ask me how I know.

Seriously?  Seriously??  That's what you come out with?  You've been away from a flipping week and THAT is where you start?  Good gravy.  Please give some thoughts on D1.

Okay. Next post

What are you doing?  Do you not even want to be in this game?

I think he means he'll give his thoughts in his next post. 

[Twistedarcher]

Guys. Nkirbit is not dead, scum kill got doctored/blocked. Don't ask me how I know.

I have reason to believe this, as well.

If you have reason to believe this, then why were you doing all that speculating earlier as if you didn't know?

I have reason to believe I could have happened but not as to if it did. If mail mi is certain is happened I could probably explain how.

This still bothers me.  It means you were not being straightforward in your speculations earlier.  Now I know people have information they need to keep quiet about, and I'm not jumping to any conclusions, but the contrast between your earlier apparent confusion and current confidence does make me worry that the earlier comments were strategy and not genuine questions.

No, I WAS being straightforward in my speculation earlier. I had some reason to believe that no NK happened, but nothing concrete. However, if it didn't happen, I may be able to explain why.

I re-read my posts from today -- I don't see anything that changes even given the information. I was trying to figure out if Nkirbit is scum or not. What posts seem like strategy rather than genuine questions?

[mail-mi]

Guys. Nkirbit is not dead, scum kill got doctored/blocked. Don't ask me how I know.

Seriously?  Seriously??  That's what you come out with?  You've been away from a flipping week and THAT is where you start?  Good gravy.  Please give some thoughts on D1.

Okay. Next post

What are you doing?  Do you not even want to be in this game?

Sorry, i was in the middle of my readthrough and i had to get off. I'm starting again, tho.

[mail-mi]

Here's a summary of detail since Eevee came back:

Initially, he made Sudgy and Xeiron two of his biggest scum reads. Xeiron was scummy because of the lurker, and then coming in with a scummy opinion on the TA-Nkirbit argument (Eevee's opinion).

We get close to the soft deadline, and Xeiron and Sudgy emerge as the top two candidates. Xeiron soft-claims, and Eevee seems to believe it. Soon afterwards, Eevee makes this post:

Sudgy is going to flip town, I think.

I think Xeiron is town.

EHFW is actually my top suspect for flipping scum, but it's sort of late to start building a late from a scratch.

After Xeiron's soft-claim, but before Sudgy's claim, Eevee believes that Xeiron is town. He also says that our lynch today should be either Xeiron or Sudgy, and no one else.

After Sudgy's claim, Eevee decides that Xeiron should claim as well, and that Sudgy shouldn't be the lynch target.

xeiron please claim before going to sleeps.

Despite his earlier town read, and no information changing on Xeiron (the only thing new was Sudgy's claim), Eevee says he now has intention of lynching Xeiron.

Liopoil, I want xeiron to claim because I have intention of lynching him.

Now, does Sudgy's claim give enough information to switch Xeiron's read? I don't think it should -- if you believed Xeiron's softclaim to be true, and from a towny, before Sudgy's claim, Sudgy's claim shouldn't change anything about that. Yet Eevee went from thinking Xeiron was town to being willing to lynch Xeiron, and wanting Xeiron to claim.

The only defense I can see from Eevee's side is the idea that we NEED a lynch ASAP, and we decided it was going to be Xeiron or Sudgy, and since we shouldn't lynch Sudgy after his claim, we must lynch Xeiron. But is that enough to overturn a town-read on a player (which Eevee had on Xeiron?) I wouldn't ever push the lynch on someone I have a town read on unless it's close to the hard deadline -- even with a soft deadline, I'd be pushing another case (EFHW probably in Eevee's shoes, since he thinks she is most likely to flip scum).

FoS to Eevee for switching from having a town read on Xeiron to being willing to lynch Xeiron and asking for a claim.

Rereading and I found this on Eevee from TA. I really like it, and the fact that Eevee's been lurking (a lot) leads me to a vote: Eevee I'll go look for some more stuff.

[mail-mi]

I know I do, but does Eevee usually do mostly one liners?

[Twistedarcher]

I'm going to go ahead and Vote: EFHW

D1, early on, EFHW was pretty unremarkable. Voted X for his random vote on Nkirbit, talked about theory, but nothing that really struck me as either towny or scummy. She has mail-mi as her top town read, solely for lurking.

The first thing that stuck out at me is that after delaying, she jumped ahead and voted me for my case, without really understanding what my case was. The final thing that tipped the balance for her was that I said "I think the fact you're attempting to discredit my case rather than defend yourself speaks volumes, as well." Now, I can get someone disagreeing with this, but using that sentence as justification to vote me? It wasn't really out of line with anything I had been saying, and I had been pushing nkirbit HARD, but it seemed like a flimsy reason, as if she was trying to find a reason to join in on my wagon and get the lynch going.

Yet, despite voting me, she says in #458:

Now, this does not mean I find TA the scummiest, and I am not going to argue for a TA lynch today.

She states that she finds Sudgy and Xeiron scummier than she finds me.

Despite finding Sudgy scummy, she never gets around to placing her vote on him.

Once it's clear post-claim Sudgy will not get lynched, there's a point where Xeiron only has 2 votes, yet she hesitates to place her vote on him. However, in #768, after being prompted to vote again, she returns to place her vote on TA, not Xeiron, who she stated she had found scummier. She also avoided voting Xeiron until the hammer.

Finally, after Xeiron and Lio's claim, she pushes them hard, pointing out the contradictions in their case. Yet she is still hesitant to lynch. She makes sure that she has both mine and nkirbit's backing for a hammer, before she goes through. The fact that she was so hesitant, in the face of the obvious contradictions/lies of Xeiron/Lio, read scummy rather than towny to me. Towny, looking at those lies, would have thought that we definitely had caught scum (it's what I thought).

Today, she has a case on mail-mi. The case occurred after Raerae had opened the day voting Mail-mi for lurking. The case even names mail-mi - sudgy as a scum team, solely on the basis of mail-mi saying he thinks Sudgy is town. This case is extremely flimsy to me -- mail-mi's lurking, yes, and it's fine to vote to apply pressure, as Raerae did, but to build a case entirely based on lurking, especially when we know he's been V/LA? It just seems too easy and convenient to me, and I'm not buying it.

I also find it suspicious that I was a scum read to her yesterday, and she voted for me twice, yet she jumped back on mail-mi rather than on me. My suspicion is that this is because I haven't really been under any pressure today, and my lynch would probably be one of the harder ones to push. So she wants to go for mail-mi, who would be an easier mislynch today.

Case in short: EFHW found an arbitrary reason to vote TA after many others already had, didn't vote Sudgy despite a scum-read, made sure she only voted Xeiron after she had permission from TA and nkirbit, despite having brought up an obvious lie herself, and brought up a flimsy case on mail-mi today based solely on lurking, despite the fact that I was a larger scum read to her yesterday than mail-mi was.

[Twistedarcher]

Raerae, can we get your reads now? Or will we have to wait until the end of D2?

[Twistedarcher]

I have quotes as well, but trying to make my cases more readable -- let me know if you want quotes / post numbers.

[sudgy]

Since I'm not quite sure what to do at the moment, I'm going to reread everyone and say what I think about them:

Eevee: Only thing that jumps out at me is his willingness to blitz, which I find slightly scummy since it makes it harder for town to make decisions.  Otherwise he's seemed pretty normal.

[sudgy]

EFHW: She's been posting a lot, but not making any new stances.  I haven't played with her much, and I can't remember if this is what she was like as town or not.

[sudgy]

TA: He's posted a lot.  his play seems similar to in MXXIV, so somewhat of a townread.


Alright, I need to go now, I'll post more later.

[ashersky]

Love all, trust a few,
Do wrong to none: be able for thine enemy
Rather in power than use; and keep thy friend
Under thy own life's key: be check'd for silence,
But never tax'd for speech.


Vote Count Act II.III:

mail-mi (2): raerae, EFHW
Eevee (1): mail-mi
EFHW (1): Twistedarcher

Not Voting (2): Eevee, sudgy

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Act II ends on June 20th at 7:00 p.m.

You have 9 days and 20 hours in the bank.

[EFHW]

TA's case is replete with subtle distortions in what actually happened.  It also highlights the number of aggressive attacks he has made, on nkirbit, then lio, now me.  I contend these are all three contrived cases.  I'm not sure if they are honestly intended or designed to try to force through mislynches.  I'll go through his case in order.

I'm going to go ahead and Vote: EFHW
D1, early on, EFHW was pretty unremarkable. Voted X for his random vote on Nkirbit, talked about theory, but nothing that really struck me as either towny or scummy. She has mail-mi as her top town read, solely for lurking.

The inaccuracy here may be inadvertent - I voted for mail-mi for not contributing, not for lurking.  The posts he made were all fluff, good for seeming present but not taking stances or making observations.

Vote: mail-mi for not contributing.  This is not RVS.

The first thing that stuck out at me is that after delaying, she jumped ahead and voted me for my case, without really understanding what my case was. The final thing that tipped the balance for her was that I said "I think the fact you're attempting to discredit my case rather than defend yourself speaks volumes, as well." Now, I can get someone disagreeing with this, but using that sentence as justification to vote me? It wasn't really out of line with anything I had been saying, and I had been pushing nkirbit HARD, but it seemed like a flimsy reason, as if she was trying to find a reason to join in on my wagon and get the lynch going.

I already responded to this point earlier, but the way he makes it here is problematic.  I delayed in voting him? but then I jumped forward?  Why was he expecting me to vote sooner or later than I did?  I reserved judgment until I felt I had seen enough.  Then I voted.  I think I did understand TA's case against nkirbit, and found it contrived.  I think he focused on small subtleties as a way to seem mistreated by me.  My response to his statement about discrediting his case was totally appropriate.  How else should nkirbit defend himself?  "Speaks volumes" exaggerates the significance of a completely reasonable approach to being attacked.   I found the whole attack scummy, and this last comment pushed me over the edge to vote because it seemed designed to misrepresent nkirbit's actual behaviors.  I don't see anything scummy here.

Yet, despite voting me, she says in #458:

Now, this does not mean I find TA the scummiest, and I am not going to argue for a TA lynch today.

She states that she finds Sudgy and Xeiron scummier than she finds me.
Despite finding Sudgy scummy, she never gets around to placing her vote on him.

"Never gets around to voting?"  I was typing my post intending to vote for sudgy, asking if L-1 was too risky, when Eevee posted his vote that placed sudgy at L-1 -- without that caution.  If I had voted then it would have been inexcusable.  How can he now fault me for "not getting around to it?"  Then sudgy claimed and the wagon was abandoned. 

Once it's clear post-claim Sudgy will not get lynched, there's a point where Xeiron only has 2 votes, yet she hesitates to place her vote on him. However, in #768, after being prompted to vote again, she returns to place her vote on TA, not Xeiron, who she stated she had found scummier. She also avoided voting Xeiron until the hammer.

The vote for TA in 768 seems abrupt because there had been a lot of posts between when I made my argument about TA's contrived case against liopoil and when I voted.  For me, the thought process was continuous, but I can see how it might have seemed out of the blue if you weren't reading closely.  Regarding who I said was scummier, this is over 300 posts after I said xeiron was scummier than TA.  Things change.

Finally, after Xeiron and Lio's claim, she pushes them hard, pointing out the contradictions in their case. Yet she is still hesitant to lynch. She makes sure that she has both mine and nkirbit's backing for a hammer, before she goes through. The fact that she was so hesitant, in the face of the obvious contradictions/lies of Xeiron/Lio, read scummy rather than towny to me. Towny, looking at those lies, would have thought that we definitely had caught scum (it's what I thought).

Yeah, I hesitated, for 14 minutes.  He makes it sound like it was two days.  I had just come off of Pirates, where I followed exhortations to vote, and was never believed again for the rest of the game.  Yes we caught them in a lie - no they weren't scum.  He wants it to be cut and dried, simple and obvious.  But it never is.  There was no harm in giving it a moment.

Today, she has a case on mail-mi. The case occurred after Raerae had opened the day voting Mail-mi for lurking. The case even names mail-mi - sudgy as a scum team, solely on the basis of mail-mi saying he thinks Sudgy is town. This case is extremely flimsy to me -- mail-mi's lurking, yes, and it's fine to vote to apply pressure, as Raerae did, but to build a case entirely based on lurking, especially when we know he's been V/LA? It just seems too easy and convenient to me, and I'm not buying it.

He oversimplifies my case again.  When he wasn't lurking, mail-mi was fishing for lovers and dangling night-kill info.  After broadcasting his interest in lovers, he should have been a prime nightkill target, but he wasn't killed.  And for mail-mi to go out of his way to mention sudgy's towniness in the context of rarely posting and even more rarely stating an opinion deserves an FOS.  Furthermore, TA blasted nkirbit for countless pages for not being aggressive in his scum-hunting.  I vote mail-mi for not scumhunting AT ALL and he votes for me?  It seems like it is TA who is being arbitrary here.

I also find it suspicious that I was a scum read to her yesterday, and she voted for me twice, yet she jumped back on mail-mi rather than on me. My suspicion is that this is because I haven't really been under any pressure today, and my lynch would probably be one of the harder ones to push. So she wants to go for mail-mi, who would be an easier mislynch today.

TA was very towny at the end of yesterday and I had again readjusted my lynching priorities.  Nothing scummy there.  Is it less scummy of me to keep him at the top when I had found him towny?

Case in short: EFHW found an arbitrary reason to vote TA after many others already had, didn't vote Sudgy despite a scum-read, made sure she only voted Xeiron after she had permission from TA and nkirbit, despite having brought up an obvious lie herself, and brought up a flimsy case on mail-mi today based solely on lurking, despite the fact that I was a larger scum read to her yesterday than mail-mi was.

Case in short: None of my votes or positions were arbitrary.  I was cautious with my votes when it would mean the hammer.  My case on mail-mi is not flimsy, and less flimsy, imo, than TA's cases on nkirbit or lio were. 

[raerae]

Raerae, can we get your reads now? Or will we have to wait until the end of D2?

Um...what part of my reads at the end of D1 were confusing?