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[Robz888]

Yes, this scum read on him contradicts my early impression, but oh well.

Goodness this is for sure "Yeah I'm being scummy but I'm not scum" scum robz.
Vote: Robz

You think this a Robz scumtell. It isn't, and it hasn't been. You claimed it was in M-XVI and were wrong. You claimed it was in M-XVII and were wrong.

[yuma]

and again, nearly any question you have for terminology can be found here... I am pretty sure that link has been given at least twice in this game. Again, we are happy to answer questions, but I think you will find it easier and faster to just go to that page.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5315.0

[liopoil]

How am I acting similar to NMIII, very curious to see this answered by mail-mi.

Oh hey there it is! NMIII, MXIX (I think that was the other game you were scum that I was in), you've really been acting the same in all three games.

I believe he asked you HOW his play was similar.

[liopoil]

And "pro-town" is an absolutely ridiculous statement.  We don't know who anybody is.  Anybody could say anything.  This is the first day.  You may all say that you're town, but that doesn't give me reason to believe you.  Right now I'm leaning towards Robz-liopoil, but my vote is staying on Robz.

Pro-town is what townies try their very hardest to be, with no care whatsoever for perception. Pro-town is what scum tries to be percieved as. I don't perceive you as pro-town. The question is, does that mean that A) You are playing town badly B) you are playing scum badly or C) I am reading you badly.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.23:

liopoil (2): sudgy, Destierro
mcmcsalot (5): Robz888, mail-mi, Eevee, Twistedarcher, WinterSpartan
WinterSpartan (2): Yuma, mcmcsalot
Robz888 (2): werothegreat, Axxle2
sudgy (1): spiritbears
werothegreat (1): liopoil

Not Voting (0): no one

With 13 alive, it take 7 to lynch.

Day 1 began on April 6 at 4:15 a.m. and ends on April 27 at 4:15 a.m. forum time.

[Twistedarcher]

Reminder: Soft Deadline tonight at Midnight

Wow, a lot of posts between yesterday and today, which is a great thing. Going to go through and analyze what I can.

The problem with lynching WinterSpartan instead should be obvious... he's not currently voting for liopoil. So if he is in any danger, he can just hammer lio to save himself (which is the smart thing to do, whether he is town or scum. I'd do it).

I disagree. Not that doing so isn't a viable strategy, but I for one dont' think it is the best one. For starters, WS isn't in impending danger of being lynched, mcmc was. Second he can't hammer lio because he wasn't online during that period and now mcmc has taken his vote of him. Third, hammering like that is a risky scum move. We rarely see it done because it is risky. When I play scum I tend to stay away from the day1 lynch. Not always, but generally and I know many other players do it as well... allow a lynch of a townie go through while standing on the sidelines and watching.

If WS had hammered lio earlier I would have been very, very suspicious of him. I think he knows that. This is very similar to Qvist in MXV, if you remember that situation.

Yeah, well he can't, because there aren't enough lio votes now.

I actually find him announcing his intention to cast a hammer later MUCH SCUMMIER than if he had just hammered lio there and then. Scum are afraid to hammer because they are afraid to look bad, and they do this all the times, this testing the waters thing on voting or hammering. I do it when I'm scum without even meaning to.

I don’t see this as particularly scummy on WS’s part. It’s kind of a damned-if-he-does, damned-if-he-doesn’t situation, highlighted by both arguments by Robz and Yuma. He’s got enough pressure, and I really feel that he’s been brought to a point where ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he says will alleviate any scum read that’s on him.

No, our IC wised up, that's fine. Even mcmcsalot wised up, although I'm currently weighing the important question of whether he wised up because he is a pro-town townie with a rising post count and attention to detail (and thus a bad lynch) or because he thought it would make him look smart and redirect the pro-liopoil frustration toward someone else (and thus he's still a great lynch). Thoughts?

Leaning towards the latter myself. Mcmc didn't really become active this game until later on, hedging and not casting a vote anywhere. As soon as he got pressure, he was much quicker to move his vote. He went from making no real effort to hunt scum to being extremely defensive against both Mail-mi and WS.

On a more serious note, I didn't hammer because I wanted to give liopoil a chance to claim - a chance I'll note he never took, despite being at L-1 all day with intent to hammer. He doesn't get any more chances from me, should we ever manage to seriously consider lynching him.

this is ridiculous. lio was correct in that he didn't claim until someone stated intent. In the meantime he wasn't online until after someone unvoted him and he was no longer at L-1. Looks like you just want people to claim so you can out power roles? No that isn't a fair question, because I am using my suspicion of you to find something scummy that could just be frustration. But the point is... that lio was correct in his play here. And if we do get to that point again I would encourage you to state intent and then give him a chance to respond.

I concur with Yuma’s analysis. Lio’s reluctance to claim and waiting until the absolute last minute earns him townpoints.

[sudgy]

Man, how did 5-6 pages get made in like a day?  Anyway, I had to skim a fair bit of stuff here.

I think mcmc is town.  He's playing differently that he did in MXXI.

During my whole reread, this stuck out to me quite a bit:

I've always been more suspicious of sudgy:
- Opened with a vote for the IC followed by an OMGUS vote
- Voted for a lurker (always relatively "safe") and then immediately unvoted when called out on it, even though BoxofDog hadn't posted once between sudgy's vote and unvote
- Posted a weak case on mail-mi containing a vote for... Destierro (voting a lurker again)
- Called Axxle scummy a few times, then backed off on it when nobody else seemed to agree
- Was the immediate impetus behind name-claiming ("If I claim my flavor name, you won't want to lynch me!"). Could easily have been a way to try to avoid lynch, if desperate. He only had 3 votes at the time, but momentum seemed to be building (a lot of people had called him scummy without voting for him).
- ...And then liopoil says "Wait! Don't vote sudgy, because the IC isn't voting sudgy!" This was, like, his fourth attempt to stop that wagon. And this one worked! The wagon vanished with no further discussion.

As I've said multiple times already, the first and third points he makes were complete jokes, my unvoting of Box was just my showing yuma what his vote was like, I've said that Axxle seemed scummy at first but then didn't when I reread him.  He's been saying I've been doing things for completely different reasons than I have and have said I have.  I know that this seems like OMGUS, but Vote: WinterSpartan.

[Eevee]

It's already 2:30am here, I won't be online for the soft deadline. My lynch preferences should be clear enough though?

[Twistedarcher]

I'm getting tired of you making liopoil look like a saint.

unvote

vote: Robz

why does that bother you?

Because you and he have been the "voices of reason" trying to prevent us from lynching liopoil.  You both have also made it perfectly clear that you would not be this vehement in your disagreement if it were anyone else.  Liopoil is just the towniest of towny town in your eyes, and it's all just looking scummier by the minute.  Can I get an angry mob over here?

I think you are mistaken. I don't think lio is super townie. I have a slight town read on him. What I find suspicious is the wagon and the way it formed based off absolutely nothing. Do you not see that the people voting for lio have basically nothing to back up their vote? To me this is crazy suspicious and as a result I have more of a town read on lio.

I also agree, although I do suspect that most of the wagon comes from laziness (no offense) and sheeping rather than from scum. I actually suspect there's more scum from the active players than from the less active players in this game.

I also agree with part of Wero's point though. As town, we need to be very careful of following Yuma's analysis too much. It seems to me that everyone is viewing Yuma as extremely pro-town, and it's true, he's provided a lot of great analysis. But, like everyone else, it's been way more focused on some than on others. So we need to be sure to do our own analysis, and not just follow Yuma because he's the great almighty Yuma

One of the major problems with this is that sudgy, liopoil, yuma, and Robz can't all be on the same scumteam; we have either two or three mafia and maybe a serial killer. I think it's sudgy and liopoil (and maybe someone else), but in that case yuma, Robz, or both are town defending them.

If it's Sudgy and Liopoil, then you also have to agree that so many people in support of Liopoil are acting like so because of pro-town, and not anti-town, motives.

I think it's either 0 or 1 of Sudgy and Liopoil. No one's been looking at the more experienced players (eevee, yuma, robz), but there's DEFINITELY someone among them pulling strings and trying to confuse us.

I've glanced at the most recent posts and it really feels like Robz is whiteknighting liopoil, ie he keeps hammering home how liopoil is obviously town and saying how terribly everything is going with the lynch and how bad it is so that if we mislynch him he can just say how right he was and the more sheepy players will follow him for the rest of the game. It's not enough to change my vote just yet since I want to reread everything first but it's just a thought.

I disagree. I think if he actually wanted Liopoil lynched there's no way he pushes THIS hard. Robz, 100%, does not want Liopoil lynched. He's also putting himself way, way, way out there to do so. Does Scum Robz do this for scum Liopoil this early? I'm not so sure.

[Twistedarcher]

Yes, Eevee, but please post them again in a short post for clarity's sake as the game is moving quite fast.

[Twistedarcher]

Going through trying to see what changed Robz's opinion of mcmc (he had him pegged as super obv town in one post)

Do not like the wording Eevee uses for his reads in this post.

Robz - Too good to be obviously caught, but the little things are adding up.
WinterSpartan - I thought he was really insightful in RMM7, has been smaller of a presemce here which I find suspect.
Box - I'll suspect you until you post more.
Wero - Ditto, you two are not taking very many stances, I don't have any stronger suspicions so I PoE to the least controversial players.
sudgy - I feel your playing style is such that I'll always suspect you, but you are playing like you did in RMM7, maybe you'd be different as town?
liopoil - I feel dumb writing these because I'm basically randomly assigning everyone in the middle.
Destierro - Ditto, I cant say anything about you guys. No particular suspicion or trust in most of the guys in this game.
Axxle - Yeah yeah.
yuma - yeah yeah again, yuma just always seems towny I dont remember anything specific, I guess I should do a big reread if I wanted to be of much help.

Myself & TA - Well, these are two townies if I ever saw any!

You'll need more than just "I don't like the wording" to explain what's scummy about it, at least to convince me. I’m intrigued to hear more, though.

Real world calls me away for a few hours.  I'll try to be more active and backup my thinking later on

This reads a tiny bit scummy to me. Scum in my opinion feels the need to make excuses (or to provice actual reasons) more. (What I mean by this: Town won't get worried someone reads their absence as scummy like mafia does.)

.. But nah, I don't know spiritbears, maybe he is the kind of guy who does this all the time. Still worth noting maybe I think.

Reads null to me. I said the same thing yesterday. It’s just from a newer player trying to let everyone know why they’re going away at an important junction, I think.



I also think Wero isn’t acting scum, for sure. If he’s scum, there’s definitely at least two wagons that have been formed that aren’t scum. And I can’t imagine he’d tunnel one wagon this much.

[liopoil]

Well, it seems that everyone else reads wero's tunnelling with hardly any reason isn't scummy, just bad town play, and the deadline is coming up. As I say here:

WS is getting scummier and scummier. Vote: Winterspartan

Well, I don't actually say that^^ in that post, but it is an example of him being scummier.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.24:

liopoil (1): Destierro
mcmcsalot (5): Robz888, mail-mi, Eevee, Twistedarcher, WinterSpartan
WinterSpartan (4): Yuma, mcmcsalot, sudgy, liopoil
Robz888 (2): werothegreat, Axxle2
sudgy (1): spiritbears

Not Voting (0): no one

With 13 alive, it take 7 to lynch.

Day 1 began on April 6 at 4:15 a.m. and ends on April 27 at 4:15 a.m. forum time.

[Axxle2]

Yes, this scum read on him contradicts my early impression, but oh well.

Goodness this is for sure "Yeah I'm being scummy but I'm not scum" scum robz.
Vote: Robz

You think this a Robz scumtell. It isn't, and it hasn't been. You claimed it was in M-XVI and were wrong. You claimed it was in M-XVII and were wrong.

I'll have to reread those games sometime.
Vote: liopoil

[Axxle2]

Going through trying to see what changed Robz's opinion of mcmc (he had him pegged as super obv town in one post)

Do not like the wording Eevee uses for his reads in this post.

Robz - Too good to be obviously caught, but the little things are adding up.
WinterSpartan - I thought he was really insightful in RMM7, has been smaller of a presemce here which I find suspect.
Box - I'll suspect you until you post more.
Wero - Ditto, you two are not taking very many stances, I don't have any stronger suspicions so I PoE to the least controversial players.
sudgy - I feel your playing style is such that I'll always suspect you, but you are playing like you did in RMM7, maybe you'd be different as town?
liopoil - I feel dumb writing these because I'm basically randomly assigning everyone in the middle.
Destierro - Ditto, I cant say anything about you guys. No particular suspicion or trust in most of the guys in this game.
Axxle - Yeah yeah.
yuma - yeah yeah again, yuma just always seems towny I dont remember anything specific, I guess I should do a big reread if I wanted to be of much help.

Myself & TA - Well, these are two townies if I ever saw any!

You'll need more than just "I don't like the wording" to explain what's scummy about it, at least to convince me. I’m intrigued to hear more, though.

Mostly because he's being incredibly vague with most of it,

[liopoil]

Reminder: Soft Deadline tonight at Midnight

tick tick tick tick... we've wasted lots of bankable time, partially my fault for having a wagon on me for so long that has now pretty much gone away.

I'll take another look at Mcmc.

PPE: axxle2 post. axxle2, instead of re-reading those game, maybe catch up in this one first?

[Twistedarcher]

Wero - A Lio lynch is looking unlikely, and a Robz lynch won't happen at all today. The two real options are WS and Mcmc at this point. Which would you rather vote for?

[yuma]

Wero - A Lio lynch is looking unlikely, and a Robz lynch won't happen at all today. The two real options are WS and Mcmc at this point. Which would you rather vote for?

same to axxle, dest and spiritbears if I may...

[Axxle2]

Reminder: Soft Deadline tonight at Midnight

tick tick tick tick... we've wasted lots of bankable time, partially my fault for having a wagon on me for so long that has now pretty much gone away.

I'll take another look at Mcmc.

PPE: axxle2 post. axxle2, instead of re-reading those game, maybe catch up in this one first?

Well, yeah.

[Twistedarcher]

Spiritbears - Also, Sudgy lynch is looking unlikely. I know it's tough because you just got here, but in the interest of moving the game along, could you please vote for either WS or Mcmc?

Dest - Would love to hear from you and weigh in on WS vs. Mcmc.

Axxle2 - Would also like to hear your views on WS vs. Mcmc and place a vote on one of them.

PPE. Like Yuma said.

[Axxle2]

Wero - A Lio lynch is looking unlikely, and a Robz lynch won't happen at all today. The two real options are WS and Mcmc at this point. Which would you rather vote for?

no clue.  reading now.

[liopoil]

Well, I read mcmc, and nothing jumped out at me as scummy. He has some big chunks of text which were well reasoned, even if I disagreed with some (namely the case on me). I did not see the mcmc from the game where I was scum with him or DS9 or the aborted game. Has somebody made a big case on him, or do many people just have a scummy sentiment about him?

[mcmcsalot]

Well, I read mcmc, and nothing jumped out at me as scummy. He has some big chunks of text which were well reasoned, even if I disagreed with some (namely the case on me). I did not see the mcmc from the game where I was scum with him or DS9 or the aborted game. Has somebody made a big case on him, or do many people just have a scummy sentiment about him?

i would love if anyone made a real case on  me, robz did at one point i believe but winter spartan and mail-mi have scum reads on me from outrageously streched and downright terible resons.

[yuma]

I do feel like I need to clarify something real quick.

We are getting into a dangerous position where we are starting to think that every vote cast needs to be accompanied by a detailed, original case with quotes, etc, etc. This is not always the case. I think votes are better when accompanied with those, but it is not always needed.

For example, see my original case that I made on WS and voted. Robz posted shortly after and said, "I agree with yuma on this" and voted for WS. That was totally appropriate.

What I have seen that isn't as much is votes that are at the very beginning of a wagon w/o any reason... or as mcmc says, for the wrong reasons.

got to go, be back soon.

[mcmcsalot]

Whoa okay Yuma I see your case on him and he has gained scum points in my book. Could be a lynch for today that I agree with but I'm not gonna throw down my vote on him yet. Keepin it on mcmc.

wanna answer my question yet???

Whoa box is out. unvote. I could lynch WS, buuuut I really don't think he's the best lynch today. He does have a high content-to-post ratio and is not really that scummy. Mcmc, however, was pretty high on my scum list and is acting the same as in NMIII and the nexbie game I was in. Vote: Mom salon

Those were the same game, though, weren't they? I agree he is acting the same, but that's just one game there, not two.

No ash's game. NMIII I comodded.

How am I acting similar to NMIII, very curious to see this answered by mail-mi.

When I'm off my iPod and on a computer I'll look up some stuff.

Here is what I still want mail-mi to adress

Oh hey there it is! NMIII, MXIX (I think that was the other game you were scum that I was in), you've really been acting the same in all three games. Oh hey, you were scum in the other games! You do seem a little bit... lazier (? is that the word I'm looking for?) in this game. But I still think you are the best lynch for today.

please please please anyone look at this and tell me you think this is a good strong reason.
I underlined the statement he made and the question I asked.
I then underline the response he gives which is literally a repeat of his original statement.
The only new information he gives is that I am acting a bit differently(this is due to being in 4 games)

So how in the world can you say this is a good reason to vote for me, he has made a general claim that I am acting similar to other games where I am scum gives a reason that I am acting differently and says I'm still the best lynch for the day.