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[shraeye]

We really want to lynch the guy who is suddenly the MOST active?

Galz's analysis of lurkers was sound. I am confident we should get one of them today.

I think that's the opposite of Galz's analysis of lurkers. Wasn't he saying no one is really lurking very much? The two lowest people are actually contributing substance, and then we have Glooble, and obvtown, and up from there it's not really lurking. I think Galz was saying that lurking actually isn't an issue here.

What's more, Theorel explained (and I agree with him) why that's happening: the scum are actually scumhunting for the other faction.

I am sensitive to the fact that my top scumreads are on the most active players who aren't me, and maybe that's a problem with my reads, but I'm not sure LALL is going to cut here, and I don't think Galz was arguing for it, anyway.

I agree with this take on LaLL for right now.  I think it would be good if smaller posters got more scrutiny (and heck, they're easier to reread!) but I wouldn't want to lynch any one of them simply on the basis of lurking at this point in the game.

[Eevee]

No, I meant his analysis that not posting is an easy way to not get voted. Even in this game. I think that's a bad direction.

[shraeye]

Okay well to be clear, I won't be supporting a Galz lynch today (unless something drastically changes), but he'll be fair game tomorrow.

This post is the tipping point for me between the Cuzz/Jimmmm vote.  This looks a lot like the springboard to a day2 lynch, already in place.  When I get a townread on somebody and don't want to lynch them (Eevee, Robz, raerae, liopoil, Dsell thus far--and not in that order, I haven't thought about order yet), I would NEVER say "but they're fair game tomorrow".  Why are you afraid to let your current townreads bleed over?  A logical reason (and the one I reach in my head) is that you don't want to box yourself in as scum and get to a situation where you're left either lynching a townread, or doing another 180 flip on somebody.

[shraeye]

No, I meant his analysis that not posting is an easy way to not get voted. Even in this game. I think that's a bad direction.

Ok, I see what you mean.

[Cuzz]

Shraeye everything you just said about me is complete bullshit and I look forward to responding point by point. Phone posting for now though so it will have to wait.

[shraeye]

Ok guys, you ready?!?!  Slowpoke over here is going to vote: Eevee!  There was a lot going on with Eevee early in the game and a bunch of people expressed a similar feeling as me (I remember what my biggest read the first time through was!) that Eevee just really feels off/different/whatever you want to call it.  The hardest part about my read on Eevee under closer examination is that I am having a really hard time putting my finger specifically what is bothering me about Eevee's play this time around.

Yeah there was the whole dsell calling eevee out for saying town instead of station aligned early on but what was really offputting to me about it was the way that Eevee handled it.  In the same post that Eevee acknowledges being called out he corrects the mistake.  Ok not a huge deal but then there is the pushing a Galz scum read for no reason.  Then there has just been the general way he has been responding to pressure.  Then there was a post later when he comments on a post by liopoil that feels buddying in a minipulative kind of way. It seemed like I wasn't the only one that got an offputting impression from Eevee and then that all dissipated for what I can see as no real reason.

I will post my other reads (next is Ashersky, that ones going to be fun) in my next post but I really think we should talk about Eevee a bunch more.

Stop this nonsense, Munch.  I know that you hate this sort of argument as a reason for voting, and I'm appalled that you are using it without qualms here.  I think the general way he has been responding to pressure has made him sound towny to me.  The bolded sentence that you provide is the reason you should unvote Eevee.  You said that this impression has dissipated.  Don't rely on stale "feelings" that you can't describe, that is not how *you* scumhunt well.

[shraeye]

Shraeye everything you just said about me is complete bullshit and I look forward to responding point by point. Phone posting for now though so it will have to wait.

I look forward to the point-by-point.  I feel obliged to remind you that I don't respond at all to emotional responses.

[Cuzz]

Shraeye everything you just said about me is complete bullshit and I look forward to responding point by point. Phone posting for now though so it will have to wait.

I look forward to the point-by-point.  I feel obliged to remind you that I don't respond at all to emotional responses.

That's fine. I'm town in this game so I don't have to resort to them

[shraeye]

Some other miscellaneous responses I want to make, and assigning rereads to myself

I just went back and reread Jimmmm (and posts responding to him, etc) with a pretty critical eye due to the claims that people were making about him. And I gotta say, he appears to me to have remained very internally consistent. He thought he had a case on Eevee, he realized it wasn't great, which can be embarrassing and frustrating, especially when you really think you'd caught somebody. So he backed off a fair amount, probably too much when he said he didn't want to lynch Eevee at all. But even still, he's seemed townish and consistent to me when he's backed off from that, realizing that frustration at self is not a good reason not to vote someone.

I was also looking for his opinion on me, to see if his position regarding my towniness changed with the tide of public opinion. It did not. He's maintained pretty much throughout that it gives me definite town points but does not make me obvtown, and that if it weren't for my first post, my lack of contribution could look scummy, even though the contributions themselves were not.

So from all of this, Jimmmmmm actually looks quite town to me. Add to this the fact that I think I've been able to read Jimmmm pretty well in some blitz games and you've got one of my top town reads.

I haven't done a reread of Jimmmm yet, and I will do this more fully in the future.  I could see the merits of your first paragraph, but I want to check for myself.  Thanks for pointing this out.

Eevee and Shraeye:

I was completely fooled by mcmc in the last blitz game, but you two had more of an inside look. I don't trust myself to read him well here, so while I've found him slightly scummy, I couldn't put my finger on it, and even if I could I would be unsure. I would like each of you to give your reads on him, or at least express if you believe he's acting much the same as in blitz, or differently.

I also need to do a momsalon (mcmcsalot) reread.  He haven't really hit my radar in any consistent way, I recall some things that were mildly towny, and some things that were mildly scummy in this game.  In contrast to Eevee, though, I thought there were some chinks in his scum-armor when playing blitz, so I'll keep a keen eye out to see if I can spot them when I reread.

[mcmcsalot]

ash's recent posts have read towny to me

See, this is what I'm talking about. Saying "X read Y to me" just seems to be coming all too naturally for someone who has never had to make Town/scum reads before. I get the impression that you are offering token reads to make sure that you have some sort of an opinion, similar to what you were doing in ZMIX. Having said that, your second point is more what I would expect.

In ZMIX I pushed hard for a lynch on raerae on D1. Also I'm confused what you mean by token reads? Do you find me scummy because I am not making strong enough reads, or do you find me scummy for making too strong reads as it is my first game as town.

[raerae]

Holy biscuits, Erma!  Reread and was super disappointed to find that shraeye had presented a case on Jimmmmm while I was reading as Jimmmmm was the person I was reading.  So, sorry guys, shraeyerae has struck again.

On reread there were a few things that struck me wrong about Jimmmmm.  The first came at post #77 when I felt he was a bit snappier than necessary at Lio.  The second came at his response to me (#95), he seemed genuine (or buddyish) when he said that did read snappier than he intended but then he says this:

Yeah that reads a lot snappier than I meant. I was actually really surprised to see you telling me to settle, until I re-read my post, and you have a point. I just don't think you should vote for me in order to force me to claim. Vote for me if you think I'm scum, and we'll go from there. I actually don't think it's good for Town for us to discuss this (that is, my request not to lynch me before giving me a chance to claim) any further, and I was hoping not to have to claim until at least day 2 or 3.

Something about the bold says "Stop drawing attention to this!  Shhhhh!  Stop!!"  And that just seems like he maybe caught himself saying something he shouldn't have, realized it, and is trying to make it go away.

Next, we have post 97 where he agrees with me in questioning ash for voting for eevee without real cause.  Maybe it's just because I'm not used to you people agreeing with me but it felt sort of sheepy, trying to start a wagon.

Then we have post 114 where he redirects the little argument ash and I were having regarding my scumminess to his case on eevee.  At first I read this as townie because, let's be honest, ash and I weren't helping anybody but scum with that sidetrack but after theory pointed out that scum would want to end the day quickly I began to rethink that, maybe it was just solid scum-redirection.  Still not sold on that particular point but definitely don't see it as pure town anymore.

Post 162 is another example of him trying to shut down discussion but this time in regards to his "don't lynch me before I claim!" comment.  I just don't like that he's trying to shut down conversation because that is the only way for us to form opinions and analyze people.

Post 268 he wants to stop talking about the eevee case, again. 

Post 273 says he voted for eevee to see how he'd respond to the pressure but it seems to me like Jimmmmm voted for eevee because of the case he had formed on him.  Seems like he's trying to make it seem like it wasn't as big of a deal as he originally made it out to be.

Post 364 states that Cuzz and Galz seem to be the biggest targets today.  I was super confused when I read that because I didn't remember either being heavy on anybody's radar.  I went back a little bit and saw that yes, Cuzz did have two votes on him at that point but Galz didn't have a single one and people seemed to generally think he seemed townie.  Just went back and skimmed one more time before posting this and still don't see anybody pointing serious fingers at Galz as of this (#364) post.

#367, 368, & 370 are him saying he'll vote for Cuzz for not participating but will give Galz a pass.  Totally agree with shraeye here.  It's strange wording at best.

#378 & 405 - shutting down conversation regarding eevee lynch, again (anybody sensing a pattern yet?)

#415 & 514 - Presents a flimsy case/read on momsalon that basically boils down to him being too new to read people as town or scum based on what they post.  I don't agree with this and I don't like it.  I suppose it isn't necessarily scummy by itself but coupled with everything above it feels like he's trying to draw suspicion around momsalon for no real reason.

So, in summary, I'm comfortable with a vote here.

Vote: Jimmmmm

[Dsell]

I wonder if Shraerae will be a voting block of 2 in every game they play together?

I repeat: Jimmmm is one of my strongest townreads (if not my strongest) at this point because I find he's been very internally consistent on multiple levels.

So I advocate against his lynch and will not be voting for him unless he or someone else says something to really change my mind.

[TheMunch]

I agree with dsell. nothing about thecase on Jimm seemed particularly damming as others seem to think it is.  an insistence to stay alive and not talk about it is not particularly scummy to me. it's not particularly the same but at the end of xv when I felt it was obvious I was doctor for hammering joths fake claim it ended up not being obviousto scum and it was a good thing people didn't discuss it for as long as they did.

that being said, the people who are wary of Jim give me a town vibe.  I disagree with the Jim case but I think it is also towny to be suspicious of him.

I want to reread cuzz.

[jotheonah]

General Martok stops by Worf and Jadzia's quarters to return Worf's tooth-sharpener. He can't help but notice a bed made up on the couch.

"Trouble in the great battle of marriage, eh?" he says with a rough smile.

"I may have been ... overzealous in my hunt for Maquis sympathizers," Worf admits, snarling. "She said it was not 'good dinner conversation.'"

Vote Count 1.10

Eevee (4): TheMunch, Cuzz, theorel, Robz888
Cuzz (1): Galzria
raerae (1): ashersky
mcmcsalot (2): yuma, Jimmmmm
ashersky (1): Glooble
Robz888(1): liopoil
Jimmmmm(2): Shraeye, raerae

Not Voting (1): Dsell

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.

This flavor is just jumping all over the show's timeline. Oh well.

[liopoil]

Well, it seems most people have town reads on robz, and I don't want to lynch eevee. So I'm going to hop on a different wagon. Vote: Mcmcsalot

[Dsell]

I agree with dsell. nothing about thecase on Jimm seemed particularly damming as others seem to think it is.  an insistence to stay alive and not talk about it is not particularly scummy to me. it's not particularly the same but at the end of xv when I felt it was obvious I was doctor for hammering joths fake claim it ended up not being obviousto scum and it was a good thing people didn't discuss it for as long as they did.

that being said, the people who are wary of Jim give me a town vibe.  I disagree with the Jim case but I think it is also towny to be suspicious of him.

I want to reread cuzz.

This is the second post of Munch's to give me an immediate scum vibe. It just seems like so much buddying: I agree with Dsell, who believes that Jimmmm is town, but the people who think the opposite seem town as well!

I mean, it's possible to have townreads on that many people, sure, but it looks like a lot of appeasement to me.

[shraeye]

I agree with dsell. nothing about thecase on Jimm seemed particularly damming as others seem to think it is.  an insistence to stay alive and not talk about it is not particularly scummy to me. it's not particularly the same but at the end of xv when I felt it was obvious I was doctor for hammering joths fake claim it ended up not being obviousto scum and it was a good thing people didn't discuss it for as long as they did.

that being said, the people who are wary of Jim give me a town vibe.  I disagree with the Jim case but I think it is also towny to be suspicious of him.

I want to reread cuzz.

This is the second post of Munch's to give me an immediate scum vibe. It just seems like so much buddying: I agree with Dsell, who believes that Jimmmm is town, but the people who think the opposite seem town as well!

I mean, it's possible to have townreads on that many people, sure, but it looks like a lot of appeasement to me.

Fun new game: what do we all think about Munch?

[TheMunch]

I think the munch is awesomely pointing out things he does and doesn't agree with. apparently agreeing with people is scummy. also you can only either be for or against something. disagreeing with an idea means that everyone you disagree with its scum.

[Dsell]

I think the munch is awesomely pointing out things he does and doesn't agree with. apparently agreeing with people is scummy. also you can only either be for or against something. disagreeing with an idea means that everyone you disagree with its scum.

Not true at all, I disagreed with Jimmm's case on Eevee (that he later came to disagree with too) while maintaining that he read town to me. But you were giving a whole lot of town credit there with not a ton of reasons.

[raerae]

I'm not sold either way on Munch.  He hasn't said a whole lot.  At least not enough for me to love or hate him.

[Cuzz]

Hi shraeye. Here's my breakdown of your case against me. I'd also like it if others could read this carefully too. I don't often make massive wall of text posts, and when I do I hate feeling like they're going off into the ether to be ignored by everyone.

Eevee's interaction with me earlier surrounding his vote on me was super scummy, and included an honest to goodness lie in his justification for said vote. The case is far from terrible. Let's not get confused by the fact that there did exist earlier cases on Eevee that were terrible.

Please stop tunnelling so hard.  Eevee's statement wasn't a straight-up lie, it was just an exaggeration.  Nobody read it and said "oh cuzz IS always calling Eevee scummy."

It was indeed a lie. Eevee said this:

The thing I didn't agree with was you calling me scummy all the time.

At the time to which he is referring (ie, the time of his vote) I had not called him scummy once outside of RVS, let alone "all the time." I had in fact defended him once or twice. I don't know if it was a malicious scum lie, a lazy scum lie, or a lazy town lie, but it was certainly an untruth of some sort.

About Cuzz

Let's say we forget about the whole situation with your earlier case on Eevee and throw it all away. You're still saying that you refuse to consider voting for someone today whom you do not have a townread on, and that's an anti-town attitude.

This is a terrible premise for an argument.  First, forget the main reason that is backing Jimmmm's opinion on somebody.  Then analyze Jimmmm's opinion and call it out as anti-town.  If you're saying Jimmm is scummy, then I agree.  But if you're saying Jimmm is scummy simply for not wanting to vote for a nullread, then I disagree.

I've explained this a number of times. And it's frustrating because in my explanations, I think I've made it clear that it's a subtle point that one should be careful not to misinterpret, and yet you and raerae keep doing so. So consider this a response to her post #519 also. I DID NOT SAY that Jimmmmm was scummy for not wanting to vote for a nullread right that very instant. I said it was scummy for him to take someone he had a nullread on (Eevee), and put that person in a category of "will not lynch today." Such a category should be reserved for strong townreads. Not voting for someone is not the same as saying "I will definitely not vote for that person today." (Too many negatives?) The latter is scummy in this context, the former is not.

Cuzz has said very little, and what he has said I haven't agreed with. I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.

Yes, I realize this is somewhat unfair for Cuzz, but I really do think this game needs more voting.

Examples, maybe? You also said this earlier:

Cuzz
Noread, but I buy his reasons for being this silent.

so I'm not sure what changed.

I don't see any change between these two statements.  You hadn't said much, and were also a nullread for me.  I don't recall what you had said previously, but one can disagree to someone without attributing scumminess.  I do this quite often.  Like with Robz right now.  I think he's wrong in voting Eevee, but I have a townread on him.

The change between those two statements was Eevee voting for me in the interim.

I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.

And what's this scum narrative for me of yours that I'm fitting so perfectly? I'm not saying the idea is inconceivable but you're not backing up your assertions at all here.

I dislike both of these statements.  I don't like somebody emptily saying "this fits my scum narrative" without telling people what the narrative is; however, I have done this as town I believe (or at least it feels like something I'd do as town) so I guess I'm a hypocrite. But Cuzz's statement here is much more scummy in my opinion.  This is the third post in a row where he's picking apart Eevee's case on him.  This comes across to me as a VERY zealous defense, especially because there are only two votes on Cuzz, and Eevee at the same time is facing a much more real wagon.  That actually makes things more suspicious to me.  The storyline that I see in my mind is that scumCuzz is getting a little bit of heat and notices that somebody suspecting him is seen as suspicious.  So he's viciously attacking a case that didn't feel all that weak to me.  Trying to paint Eevee as even worse for having made this case.

Also, the wording of Cuzz's post above sets off some of my scumtells.  The "I have reason to be suspected, but you aren't explaining yourself at all.  I'm getting caught for no reason" scumtell to be precise.

Vote: Eevee

Are you voting for me because you think I'm inventing suspicion on you?

Because you said a bunch of stuff in your "explanation" of your vote on me that you didn't back up at all, and I found that scummy.

Here again cuzz is getting angry at not having a "legitimate reason" for the votes on him.  Also this vote back on Eevee is 100% OMGUS in my book, and the logical conclusion at the end of the tunnel that Cuzz has been running down.  The last time I saw tunnelly Cuzz, it was in Buffy mafia where I was telling Cuzz/yuma to stop tunnelling the bejeezus out of eachother.  End story there was Cuzz was scum and yuma was town (yeah Cuzz was SK, but SK is scum in my book; same survivalist, lynch-anybody-but-my-team goals as mafia). So this makes me very suspicious of Cuzz.

These last two posts represent my least favorite part of mafia. That's the notion that defensiveness and voting for someone who voted you are both inherently scum behavior. You take issue with me "picking apart Eevee's case" on me. Well guess what? I thought it was a pretty damn awful case that he entirely failed to back up with evidence and I wanted to poke at it to determine if the lack of justification for his vote on me was scummy or lazy. When calling someone out for scummy voting behavior why should it make any bit of difference whether said scummy voting behavior entails that person voting for me or for someone else? But no, if I think scum might be voting for me, it's against the rules to vote them back because that would be "OMGUS," right? And only scum does that.

About the "zealous defense" you mention, you're trying to paint it as over the top and out of proportion since I only had two votes on me. Well, I don't care about the votes on me. I'm not even really "defending myself" (in the quotes you give that is. I am certainly doing so now). I'm picking apart what I find to be a bad case that happens to be against me. It doesn't matter how many votes are on me for me to do that.

With respect to your "tunneling Cuzz is scum Cuzz" remark, again I want to make clear what I had been doing in all the quotes you give. I'm not saying "hey all, Eevee is definitely scum, let's lynch him right now." That constitutes tunneling in my mind. What I had been doing was pressing Eevee himself to back up his case so I can gauge his reaction and not let him get away with making lazy unsubstantiated statements, so I can then decide if I think he's scum or not. So far, I have been unsatisfied with his responses and my vote on him remains.

[Eevee]

So my response read to you as scum rather than lazy town?

[mcmcsalot]

As far as TheMunch is concerned, I have pretty much a null read on him, I lean slightly toward scum because when I ctrl/F his name there is a small gap where I assume he was getting caught up, he then posts some reads and information and then another huge gap where he posts nothing.

[ashersky]

FYI, I think flavor matters in this game.

[Cuzz]

Flavor is for my own fun and the enjoyment of the few Trekkies amongst you. Trying to analyze it for game information is a fruitless endeavor you are advised against.