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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!  (Read 1957 times)

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Will(ow|iam)

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2023, 10:25:56 pm »
+2

Startup
$5 Project
When you end your turn having gained an action card but not played an action card, take another turn after this one (but not a 3rd turn in a row).
« Last Edit: October 20, 2023, 06:01:34 am by Will(ow|iam) »
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2023, 01:50:29 am »
+1

Damn I had an idea but then I figured out that same effect is realized more easily by skipping turns rather than adding them, so now it doesn't qualify :(

Actually it may have not qualified anyway since it'd give the extra turn to other players

segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2023, 05:00:17 am »
+3



How about a one-shot? Enterprise is a Silver that hangs around in your deck until you trash it for an extra-turn. You can get some economy in the opening and then pop it later when the timing is better, or take the extra turn right away. Regardless, you'll have keep getting more if you want the extra turns to keep coming. Unlike Mission and Journey, you can gain Enterprises with Workshops and the like.

Sidenote: props to DXV on the new errata wording, this makes extra turn cards SO much simpler, jeez where has this been all these years.
Well, you pointed out yourself why this is too good via the comparison with the landscapes.
It is far too easy to consistently play this in an engine with a gainer. You just gotta play two stop cards each turn.
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2023, 08:08:14 am »
+1



How about a one-shot? Enterprise is a Silver that hangs around in your deck until you trash it for an extra-turn. You can get some economy in the opening and then pop it later when the timing is better, or take the extra turn right away. Regardless, you'll have keep getting more if you want the extra turns to keep coming. Unlike Mission and Journey, you can gain Enterprises with Workshops and the like.

Sidenote: props to DXV on the new errata wording, this makes extra turn cards SO much simpler, jeez where has this been all these years.
Well, you pointed out yourself why this is too good via the comparison with the landscapes.
It is far too easy to consistently play this in an engine with a gainer. You just gotta play two stop cards each turn.
Really, you just need Sculptor.
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SignError

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2023, 10:17:58 am »
+1

Damn I had an idea but then I figured out that same effect is realized more easily by skipping turns rather than adding them, so now it doesn't qualify :(

Actually it may have not qualified anyway since it'd give the extra turn to other players

I had also thought through that scenario and decided giving extra turns to other players, even ones benefiting them would qualify for the contest. But as I thought through specific cards, I also came to the conclusion that skipping your next turn would probably be better alternative, if only to distribute the turns more fairly in games with 3 or more players when the first opponent can end the game in their second turn.  Maybe someone can come up with a way to make it work though.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2023, 04:27:40 am »
+11



Note that Clean-up is considered a phase, so you will skip it if you did not name Clean-up with any Safe Houses. The main premise of the idea is that I wanted an extra-turns Kingdom card that gave you reason to want to play multiple in one turn.
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anordinaryman

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2023, 12:05:47 pm »
+2



I'm open to wording suggestions. Do action cards "take" two actions to play? Or do they "cost" two actions? 

I think the action cost is a lot more prohibitive than youíre thinking. You begin with two actions and you play a village, which now means you have two actions again ó the village didnít do anything! Even non terminals like lab mean you play no more actions. The only way to actually play multiple non-village actions is if you have throne rooms or bustling village.

You could simplify it by skipping action phase entirely and perhaps having it draw cards at beginning of turn to increase chances of having treasures and night cards.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2023, 12:11:04 pm »
+1

I think the action cost is a lot more prohibitive than youíre thinking.
Whence do you infer this? Chappy77 made it pretty clear that he realizes that this is a BM card that shuts down virtually all engines:

This one basically shuts down all but the very strongest engines
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kru5h

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2023, 02:27:23 pm »
+4

Trek(v2)


This applies to ALL cards played, including treasures. So it affects Big Money too.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2023, 08:12:20 pm by kru5h »
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fika monster

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2023, 04:30:03 am »
0



I'm open to wording suggestions. Do action cards "take" two actions to play? Or do they "cost" two actions?

Then to the cost.  I admit these are hard for my little brain to handle.  With this being non-terminal, does it need to cost 6? I'm trying to compare it to Outpost.  This one basically shuts down all but the very strongest engines, which could be more harsh than Outpost, but on the other hand, this does nothing to harm money decks that only have a couple key actions.

I think you either need to start with +2 Actions from the card, or make every action card after the first one cost 1 more action to play
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fika monster

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2023, 05:12:47 pm »
+1

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2023, 05:42:44 pm »
0

24 hour warning

Please check that your entry is listed in the OP.



Contest is closed

Iíll get judging done over the next couple of days.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2023, 06:52:33 pm by SignError »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2023, 11:04:42 pm »
+5

I'll try to finish judging tomorrow, but for now here is the initial judgement and list of finalists.

Exploration/Conquistador by BryGuy

This one changed a few times over the course of the contest.  I liked the Way version that cost $5 and was by itself the most.  The split pile alongside the setup is too complex, and Conquistador doesnít seem good here. So Iíll focus on Exploration (also heads up that Exploration is also the name of a Project).  I donít think itís necessary to mess with the starting hand size for this one.  I also donít think the Villager is necessary, as in most games there will be non-terminal ways.  WotChameleon is a very special case because it lets you do all the normal things your actions could do, with $ and draw swapped, and with 6 set aside Ways it will be available in almost 1 out of 3 games.  All this makes me feel like you could lower the number of set aside Ways to 5 or maybe even 4.  So to summarize, I would try to simplify things and balance around your core idea of an extra turn using only Ways.

Carnival by fika monster

The Warlord wording is definitely necessary here. In isolation, it doesnít seem as powerful as Voyage, even putting the +1 Action aside.  Although the low cost isnít too relevant because this is bad in the opening.  Itís nice in kingdoms with a lot of variety, but even then, you would have to decide if you want to weaken your normal turns by avoiding too many duplicates.  Overall a pretty solid card. Finalist

Sleep Walking by Chappy77

I like this one quite a bit.  Engines are strong, so itís nice to occasionally have cards that work well with Big Money to make you weigh that option against the rest of the kingdom.  You probably wonít want more than one copy, and you wonít draw it every turn, so it isnít like itís super busted or anything.  The engine play is a nice puzzle.  The wording is definitely tricky.  I was going to suggest handling the -1 Action like a reverse Champion, but that would nerf interactions with Throne Room and others, which is bad. $5 is a good cost. Finalist

Rainbow Bridge by JW

Another one I really like.  Itís a Magic Lamp for extra turns.  Like how Magic Lamp can always hit 6 uniques because it comes with Secret Cave, this one being a village means itís also possible to meet the requirements in all reasonable kingdoms.  Of all the submissions, this one really doesnít want to have to be a Duration.  Itís reasonable to want more than one copy of the village, especially if itís the only one in the kingdom.  But if you activate the extra turn, all those villages are stuck in play, one is discarded at the end of the extra turn, and technically all the additional copies are stuck in play until the end of your next opponentís turn.  The fix would be to add the old Outpostís ďIf this is the first time you played a Rainbow Bridge this turn,Ē not to limit the extra turns, but to have the discards work well.  Or just not have it be a Duration, and well, Possession isnít a Duration, although thatís the least of Possessionís worries. Finalist

Night Shift by Augie279

Very nice. The wording is simple, while the effect is still compelling.  The power level is comparable to Voyage, but this is a Night card, in its own pile, and works better with trashing; so $5 is appropriate.  This should also resolve quicker than a typical Voyage turn.  Then thereís the draw-to-x interaction.  Thatís strong, but allowable, given how rare it is and the effort that usually goes into making draw-to-x engines.  A minor nitpick in the wording is that it shuts down an opponent's +Cards from things like Road Network.  A wording like this gets around that: ďduring which you ignore all +Cards.Ē  As a final note, I like the thematic connection to Werewolf being a Smithy by day and doing something else at night. Finalist

Survey Station by Builder_Roberts

I definitely agree that multiplayer lockout potential was bad, but the updated wording has its own issues.  If you play it and gain a Victory card on the same turn, you donít get the extra turn until after your next turn.  Also, for all the official ďnext turnĒ cards, they do the thing right then, but with Survey Station itís next timeÖ no wait a little longer, which makes tracking extra tricky.  Lots of potential for missplays.  The cool thing here is that you can get 2 copies, where you can play the second copy on the extra turn.  I kind of think I like it better if it only triggered on opponentsí turns, which lets you remove the cost requirement, for simplicity and additional interactions.

Band of Thieves by segura

This one requires Gold as fuel for an unrestricted extra turn.  Usually Gold is a steep price.  The Gold gainers are rare and tricky enough that the combo with this is OK.  I donít really care for trashing a Gold from the discard and especially from hand.  The comparison to Remodel only matters if gaining Provinces is the only useful thing you can do on your turns, but usually there are better things to do.  Other interactions aside, you still get the $3 from a played Gold, while the Remodel wouldnít.  I do agree it needs something more.  Maybe have it cost less and let it trash some number of non-Duration treasure(s) from play, but only give the extra turn if a Gold was trashed.  Maybe give it some when-gain, even just ďThis is gained to your hand.Ē  There isnít really a good reason for this to not be a Duration.

War Tax by grep

This does solve the Penultimate Province rule, but I think it creates other rules.  For instance, in a 2-player game once 4 Provinces are evenly split, Player 2 could buy this to take the Provinces pile to 3.  If Player 1 gets a Province, Player 2 can empty the 2 remaining Provinces for a tie, which is an acceptable outcome for Player 2.  Or Player 1 starts Duchy dancing a Province early, and nothing really changes.  So really this is just a strategy check on Player 2 (although maybe thereís some other strategy Iím missing, and I didnít attempt a 3-player game strategy).  But in games with +Buy for double Province, or other useful things to do on your turns, this can be useful.  Youíll probably only buy it once in a game, so the one-shot event cost isnít a problem.  Moving to the early game Estate trashing, I think that is a little too good.  Bonfire trashes Coppers, lowering your overall money density.  Trashing a single Estate also yields lower money density than a Silver gain, but not by much.  A better comparison is Scrounge, which also lets you trash an Estate for $3.  But if you do, your opponent can gain that Estate along with a $5, which is especially relevant with strong $5 trashers or junkers in absence of other trashing.  Without some gimmick like that, Iíd want an Estate removal event to cost $4, comparable to Banish.

Insurance  by faust

This one is a neat puzzle. I especially like how Silver is the trigger; itís not a bad card, but usually you want other things. The mini-game here gives most of the power to the opponent. They can gain a single Silver on their turn, turning your Insurance into a delayed Copper.  But that requires +Buy or you just keep buying Silver.  In a single buy kingdom, Iíd even consider a bad Silver gainer like Bureaucrat; extra turns are that powerful, especially in the absence of +Buy.  Alternatively, you just get your own Insurance and then neither player is incentivized to get Silver.  Youíll need at least 2 copies of Insurance to have the effect constantly up. At that point, maybe one player gets even more insurance, and then gets Silver to stack up many Coffers while also disabling the opponentís extra turn.  All that said, the price of Insurance seems a little too high, but didnít I say extra turns are powerful, so itís better to err on the side of caution. Finalist

Dejima by majiponi

First off, this one has the Golem issue, if you have something like Toil to play Golem, and some Action - Treasures for it to hit.  I would recommend a wording like ďduring which you canít play Treasures from your hand.Ē The extra turn is either going to be useless or really powerful, depending on the kingdom.  The high cost seems geared toward the really powerful case, so the rest of the time Dejima probably just sits on the table.  I kind of want to make it into something like ďChoose one: +$N; or ÖĒ and then balance the coins with the cost.  It would still need engine support, but then it would at least be playable in the absence of virtual money or something else to do.

Crusade by anordinaryman

Most extra turn effects come with some sort of drawback for the extra turn.  This one affects all of your turns for the rest of the game.  Topdecked Copper junking is the perfect self-drawback, and Iím surprised there are no official cards that use it.  The neat thing is that I can see it being useful in Big Money, Engines, and Slogs.  I agree with the cost.  At $2, it could be too easy for one player to gobble them all up, in games where thatís relevant.  The wording is good, and the effect is immediately understandable. Finalist

Enterprise by 4est

This one seems a little too good.  It definitely wants to cost $4 though, so it can fill the roll of early game Silver.  Maybe give the extra turn some downside.  Or maybe have it be a Woodcutter instead of a Silver.  This one should also have the Duration type, with wording to trash it at some later time.

Time Shift by NoMoreFun

Another puzzle to evaluate its power.  I would move the opponentís +5 cards to the start, to make it clear that they get that now.  Being unaffected by Attacks during the extra turn means it will be difficult to follow this up with a Militia, though in some kingdoms itís possible.  Attack shenanigans aside, in the early game, one 10 card turn is better than two 5 card turns, especially considering the first turn has to buy Time Shift.  But once both players can draw their whole deck each turn, the +5 Cards is negligible and the extra turn matters a lot.  Assuming +buys in the kingdom, after one player buys Time Shift, the next will likely be able to do so, continuing for the rest of the game, which is so thematic!  Then the person to Time Shift first stands to get the greatest benefit, but there still needs to be caution not to do it too soon, as it also helps the opponent reliably play their attack on their normal turn.  Maybe you even want to time things well enough to ensure you get the first Time Shift turn and the last.  Iím tempted to add +1 Buy to the event to see this happen in more games, but even in games without +1 Buy, maybe you buy this when you get bad luck and dud late-game. It might need ďOnce per turnĒ like Journey, but then again Deliver doesnít have it. Finalist

Startup by Will(ow|iam)

I would avoid the Conspirator counting and instead look for Actions ďin play.Ē  The wording for the first part also seemed odd, but it actually matches Baths.  Still, I think I would prefer something more common, like ďWhen you gain an Action, if you have no Actions in play, ÖĒ  At first I was dismissive of the limitation, but I keep being reminded just how powerful an extra turn can be.  This being a $5 Project means you probably already have Actions in the deck when you buy it.  But maybe you just donít play them and buy a cheap engine piece instead.  So it encourages an engine with decent treasure density, which is kind of uncommon and therefore a fun deck to play.  A 5/2 opening on this and some cheap but useful Action could be interesting.

Safe House by Gubump

This is the most complicated, rule-bending entry, in spite of having reasonable wording.  Donít get me wrong, this is a really cool idea, but the more I dug into it, the more difficulties I found.

This definitely gets props for wanting multiple copies in your deck, unlike something like Outpost where each player usually only wants one copy.  The downside there is that all copies of Safe House after the first will stay in play after your extra turn, when they hit the ď(but not a 3rd turn in a row)Ē check, so they would get discarded at the end of the next playerís turn.  A FAQ could point that out. Wording like ďif this is the first time you played a Safe House this turn.Ē wouldnít help here because then the other Safe Houses get discarded before the extra turn.

There are 3 main phases: Action, Buy, and Clean-up. This doesnít play nice with Night, but a lot of other things donít either.  For skipping the Action and Buy phases, the trickiest interactions are whether or not you still do start of turn stuff (I would say yes), and whether things like Villa take you back to your skipped Action phase. (Iíd say no, but that one definitely needs a FAQ).  Otherwise, itís as if you just clicked the End Actions / End Buys button in the online implementation.  Skipping Clean-up is the trickier one to wrap your mind around.  How I interpret that is that you donít discard anything from play (much like Journey), but you also donít discard your hand, and you donít draw a new hand of 5 cards.  Some effects like Improve are unavailable.  Iím surprised that there arenít a ton of cards that break with no Clean-up.  Encampment stays set-aside (forever, or until your next Clean-up, needs FAQ), but that also happens if you got the Encampment from Black Market.  Itís also kind of annoying that you need to track whether your Durations still have something to do, or if they are done.  Yes, that happens with Journey too, but at least finished Durations get discarded before the next playerís turn, while with this you have to keep track of everything during the other playerís turn(s).

OK, now letís look at the 7 modes of extra-turn play:

  • Clean-up only: Usually pretty pointless.  Maybe you have Harbinger that likes having 5 cards in the discard.  You do get your Safe House discarded, so you donít need an extra copy to play on your next normal turn.  There are also start of turn effects and things like Coastal Haven that could make it worthwhile.
  • Action only:  You can play your engine and even draw your whole deck, but with no Buy phase even virtual money is pointless, Black Market aside, and how many gainers can you reasonably have. Also, your engine pieces are stuck in play and you donít draw a new hand.  You were probably better off just waiting for your next turn.  The one advantage this has is the extra turnís +1 Action, which maybe lets you play a Smithy and have a hand of 7.  Iíd rather have a Ghost Town though.
  • Buy only:  Play the Treasures you happen to have and buy something.  Might be nice to get rid of Coppers for a while, but with your better Treasures being stuck in play, using them here wonít help you to improve your next turn, things like Stockpile being the exception.
  • No Clean-up:  The most comparable to Journey, but remember you donít draw a new hand, so keep some engine pieces for next turn, letting you draw what you gained on the extra turn to further improve your deck.  The greatest downside here is that your 2 Safe Houses are stuck in play for your next normal turn, so you need 2 more copies to get an extra turn then, and at that point you might as well just play 3 Safe Houses at once.
  • No Action: Usually more limited than Night Shift, Figurine or Duration draw aside.
  • No Buy: Much more limited than Dejima.
  • All 3 phases:  Again, Night is left out, but otherwise this is an ordinary turn.  Remember that it required $9 and 3 Buys (or 3 Workshop plays), and you had to draw 3 stop-cards together (compare to Treasure Map, which is only 2).  But you wouldnít go for this if you werenít drawing your whole deck right? ::Anakin stare:: Right??

Maybe Iím missing something, but aside from the rare combos, the downsides of those limited extra turns are way too much, so only the Safe House x3 play is worth it.  So Iíd rather this just be ďYou may discard 2 Safe Houses, revealed.  If you didÖĒ  Yes I know this is different with Kingís Court, but not everything has to combo with Kingís Court, and it makes things so much more simple.  The cost (in terms of card price and deck control) is still probably too high.  Maybe make it cost $2 or give it a when-gain or Overpay.

Trek by kru5h

A lot like the Night Shift entry.  Village becomes comparable to Necropolis.  Smithy becomes comparable to Moat. Laboratory becomes worse than Old Map.  So in your run-of-the mill engines, youíre not actually increasing hand-size.  Draw-to-x is still the exception here, which is fine.  And thatís just the Actions.  Treasures also require a discard.  So most of the time youíre only playing 3 Treasures, making it comparable to Voyage, but you can mill through your engine pieces.  It ends up being a close call, but I fear all the discard decisions might slow down the turn a lot, so Night Shift edges this out just barely.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2023, 12:23:24 am »
+1

Rainbow Bridge by JW

Another one I really like.  Itís a Magic Lamp for extra turns.  Like how Magic Lamp can always hit 6 uniques because it comes with Secret Cave, this one being a village means itís also possible to meet the requirements in all reasonable kingdoms.  Of all the submissions, this one really doesnít want to have to be a Duration.  Itís reasonable to want more than one copy of the village, especially if itís the only one in the kingdom.  But if you activate the extra turn, all those villages are stuck in play, one is discarded at the end of the extra turn, and technically all the additional copies are stuck in play until the end of your next opponentís turn.  The fix would be to add the old Outpostís ďIf this is the first time you played a Rainbow Bridge this turn,Ē not to limit the extra turns, but to have the discards work well.  Or just not have it be a Duration, and well, Possession isnít a Duration, although thatís the least of Possessionís worries. Finalist

First, your judging is incredibly thorough and thoughtful! Second, I did not make Rainbow Bridge a Duration. Maybe that causes other rules issues, I'm sure you've thought about these issues more than I have!
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2023, 01:43:27 am »
0

Concerning my card having to be a Duration, no. It does nothing after Clean-up and everybody should be able to countdown turns.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2023, 04:51:17 am »
+1

Concerning my card having to be a Duration, no. It does nothing after Clean-up and everybody should be able to countdown turns.

It still tracks "but not a 3rd turn in row" after Clean-up, like Outpost.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2023, 06:48:47 am »
+1

Concerning my card having to be a Duration, no. It does nothing after Clean-up and everybody should be able to countdown turns.

It still tracks "but not a 3rd turn in row" after Clean-up, like Outpost.
Tracking via keeping the card in play is not necessary. You should be able to not forget that just like you do not forget that you bought Mission in the previous turn (and if you have issues with that, you can track it however you want).
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2023, 12:47:00 pm »
0



I'm open to wording suggestions. Do action cards "take" two actions to play? Or do they "cost" two actions?

Then to the cost.  I admit these are hard for my little brain to handle.  With this being non-terminal, does it need to cost 6? I'm trying to compare it to Outpost.  This one basically shuts down all but the very strongest engines, which could be more harsh than Outpost, but on the other hand, this does nothing to harm money decks that only have a couple key actions.

I think you either need to start with +2 Actions from the card, or make every action card after the first one cost 1 more action to play

The +1 action means you start with 2 actions, so you can always play at least 1 card on your extra turn.
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Chappy77

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2023, 12:49:08 pm »
+1



I'm open to wording suggestions. Do action cards "take" two actions to play? Or do they "cost" two actions? 

I think the action cost is a lot more prohibitive than youíre thinking. You begin with two actions and you play a village, which now means you have two actions again ó the village didnít do anything! Even non terminals like lab mean you play no more actions. The only way to actually play multiple non-village actions is if you have throne rooms or bustling village.

You could simplify it by skipping action phase entirely and perhaps having it draw cards at beginning of turn to increase chances of having treasures and night cards.

Yep it shuts down all but the most extreme engines.  You can still play a payload action like bard or sacred grove, and then money.  Or you can play an attack or a trasher.  But you will not be drawing and playing lots of actions.  This is intended.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2023, 01:58:40 pm »
+6

I wanted to go through the Finalists in some randomly generated kingdoms.  9 official Kingdom cards, at most 1 official landscape, with all official extra turn cards banned.


Animal Fair, Den of Sin, Junk Dealer, Vampire, Hostelry, Sacrifice, Clashes, Siren, Ducat, Capitalism

A really interesting kingdom with lots of Attacks, trashing, and draw.

Even with Warlord around, Carnival is more restrictive.  Importantly, Durations are the only source of draw, so we can either use them to set up for the Carnival turn, or use them on a Carnival turn to set up for the next turn, but not both.  On the other hand, Rainbow Bridge works well because you want the variety for Warlord anyway, especially given you shouldnít need many villages.

Time Shift has some interesting interactions.  The +5 cards makes an opponentís Siren draw redundant on the start of their normal turn, but playing a Siren on a normal turn before you take a Time Shift turn still yields draw.  Archer is still useful, but you need to choose between the Warlord attack and the extra turn.  You can also time your Vampire(s) to be active on your normal turn, and then convert them on the extra turn.

Sleep Walking can probably do Siren + Den of Sin Big Money, aided by Capitalism. Siren gives an 8 card hand to Night Shift, but other draw is shut down. Crusade has abundant Duration draw and trashing.  Insurance doesnít have anything noteworthy here.


King's Cache, Emissary, Magnate, Duplicate, Trail, Underling, Candlestick Maker, Scrying Pool, Overlord, Peril, City-State

A weaker kingdom.  No +Actions except Trail shenanigans, which can really only be pulled off with Scrying Pool, and thatís probably also the best source of draw, although not as good as normal with the lack of trashing.  Alternatively, you could go for Emissary/Magnate & Peril/Kingís Cache Big Money.

Of course the lack of Actions doesnít apply to Rainbow Bridge, so it can still pull off its combo.  However, it did just click with me that Rainbow Bridge checks its condition at clean-up, so you wouldnít play all your Coppers, like you can with Magic Lamp. In this kingdom there are Loots that can help out with Uniques.

Carnival can use Peril on duplicate or terminally drawn Actions, while bringing in a variety of cards.  City-State could be a good way to get Carnival into play.

The weak kingdom is already a time for Night Shift to shine, but Scrying Pool is ďput cards into handĒ instead of +Cards, so it can still draw.

Meanwhile, Sleep Walking takes the terminal draw Big Money route.  It probably doesnít mess with Scrying Pool, but it can over-terminal with a mix of Emissary and Magnate, to have variety and Peril fodder.

Insurance extra turn seems good, as you really want things that are better than Silver here.

Crusade use will be limited, but you probably still get one toward the end.
 
Time Shift likely goes unused due to the limited draw and trashingÖ until the end of the game, when it helps a player secure the win.


Corsair, Frigate, Sanctuary, Stash, Cavalry, Envoy, Sauna/Avanto, Walled Village, Augurs

Another nice engine.  Frigate is a check on Sauna/Avanto chaining

Envoy is another draw without using +Cards for Night Shift to take advantage of.  At least the Walled Villages and especially Sauna/Avanto are still nerfed.

Carnival probably struggles here, especially given you want to play both Corsair and Frigate on the extra turn, with only one Walled Village available.  On the other hand Rainbow Bridge gets to use the Corsair and Frigate from the previous turn, and you only need one copy of each of them for the Attack.

Crusade has some decent thinning, but the top-decking could be an issue.  Maybe Walled Village + Herb Gatherer?  Crusade always at least has limited use toward the end of the game.

Sauna/Avanto works with Sleep Walking!  Frigate is still a counter, but definitely the most interesting set for Sleep Walking.

Between Sauna/Avanto and Corsair, it could be a reasonable strategy to gain a Silver every turn, shutting down Insuranceís extra turn.  Trying to play multiple copies of Insurance to get Coffers is countered by Frigate.

Time Shift shuts down your ability to use Corsair and Frigate, and it sets up Sauna/Avanto and Sorceress/Sybil chains for the opponent.  You probably wait till the end of the game to get this.


Governor, Wheelwright, Bounty Hunter, Mountain Village, Shepherd, Farmers' Market, Sage, Taskmaster, Hamlet, Transport

Very quick Bounty Hunter -> Governor game.  Extra turns should be extremely valuable.

Governor being so monolithic and limited trashing is sad for CarnivalRainbow Bridge has issues with that too, but extra turns are powerful.  Letís see: Rainbow Bridge, Pasture, Bounty Hunter, Taskmaster, Sage, maybe Gold.  There are some other potential uniques, but Rainbow Bridge seems doable.

Crusade has a neat combo with Sage skipping the topdecked Coppers.  You can guarantee a Sage into your starting hand by having Bounty Hunter exile it and then buying Transport.  You drown in Coppers later on, but maybe the game ends quickly enough.

Sleep Walking and Night Shift are likely too limited here.

Governorís Silver gain can easily shut down Insuranceís extra turn, and Governor takes priority for $5 over Insurance for the Coffer gain.

Time Shift is tricky here.  Combined with the +Card from drawing with Governor over 2 turns, your opponent will have a starting hand of many, many cards.  Then they use Wheelwright to turn their overdraw into gains.  It may be best to wait for Time Shift when you can end the game on your next turn.


Crypt, Merchant Guild, Abundance, Death Cart, Harbor Village, Mapmaker, Procession, Wizards, Druid (Swamp, Flame, Moon), Piazza, Crafters' Guild

Piazza + Craftersí Guild is a nice combo.  Draw and trashing are sort of limited. Procession alongside Merchant Guild can lead to an explosive finish. Extra turns are premium.

Piazza + Crafters is a nice boost for the start of a Sleep Walking turn. A Procession chain could also help out, but thatís pretty volatile.  It could be difficult to play many Merchant Guilds.

Student fueling Craftersí Guild makes Crusade attractive.  Druid -> Will-o-Wisps is also a nice shout.

Rainbow Bridge has itself, Student, Sorcerer, maybe Druid, and maybe Silver.  There are other unique options too, and there are always Ruins in a pinch.

Carnival might have a tough time. Procession removing a card from play might help, but that trick is only available once per turn.

Mapmaker is another draw without +Cards for Night Shift.

Merchant Guild is a much better coffer gainer than Insurance, and Iíd probably pick up Silver just to shut down the extra turn; especially toward the end of the game.

Time Shift is spooky given the limited trashing and draw, and it makes Mapmakerís reaction even more dangerous.  Thereís still the worry of a player using it to end the game.


Runners-up (In order of submission)

Carnival: This ended up being too limited, and Rainbow Bridge nudges it out for the variety interaction.  It doesnít work well with Durations where you have one from the previous turn and one you want to play this turn.  Strong kingdoms usually have at least one card you need to play a lot of.  Not being able to play duplicate Treasures is also sad in the weak kingdoms.

Sleep Walking: It was a fun puzzle, but it usually only sees Big Money play.  The wording for having Action plays require 2 Actions is also tricky.

Insurance:  You usually counter with Silver, in which case it probably just sits on the table.  Some extended playtesting could be really good here to balance the power.

Time Shift:  As I thought about this in context of specific kingdoms, I realized that most of the time youíre getting this on your last turn, or maybe on your second-to-last turn, when your opponent canít win in the following turn(s).  Which isnít too fun for the other player.

3rd Place: Night Shift by Augie279

The limitation is simple and understandable.  It will either be weak, or strong with ways to get around the limitation.  This is a pretty small sample of kingdoms, but the draw exceptions are more common than I originally expected.

2nd Place: Rainbow Bridge by JW

This was very close. I really like the variety mini-game. It being a Village is the perfect vanilla effect.  The Duration dilemma is difficult to resolve.  Iíd probably just keep it as a non-Duration, but I wish there was more precedence among the Official cards.

Winner: Crusade by anordinaryman  A simple effect that really makes you think.  Aside from kingdoms with no extra Buys or Workshops, this will always be desirable, but how much do you get is the key question.  There were no wording or rules issues that I could see.  Also new players get an experience like they did with the card Thief in learning that Copper is a bad card, but Crusade has so much more to do once you figure out the Copper part.
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Augie279

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2023, 12:51:38 am »
+4

Thanks for the third place, and congrats to anordinaryman for the win! Considering what cards would do on randomly generated boards is genius, honestly, and it's something I should do next time I end up judging. GGs!

I do wanna say, though, even if you have cards that can get around the restriction (e.g. Envoy, Mapmaker, Scrying Pool) having your villages not draw you can be brutal on some boards. (Harbor + Mapmaker is neutral in handsize on its board). Doesn't mean it's not strong, just less strong than I think you give it credit for.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2023, 08:28:48 pm by Augie279 »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #202: Extra! Read all about it!
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2023, 11:03:19 am »
+2

Since I won, it feels weird for me to compliment the judging, but I wanted to second what Augie279 said. You really dug deep into cards and exposed things I totally hadn't thought through.

Thanks for the nod, I'll have my contest up shortly.
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