In the years I've played on here, I don't actually remember a game where scum posted Intent to hammer and 30 minutes later hammered without actually giving the wagonee time to claim.
Haha, well done for giving a sufficiently specific description that it probably has not happened in exactly this way before. Unfortunately, people quickhammering without leaving time to claim happens all the time. So unless you want to claim that you knew that mcmc is scum (in which case, by all means, go ahead), the fact that he's scum should have had no impact on your decision-making there.
--snip--
Fair, that was wordy. I don't remember anyone announcing intent and hammering 30 minutes later before a response. Is that general enough for you? Yeah quickhammers happen, but at that point, most of the people not on the wagon didn't like the wagon (like Space and joth from memory) and Ash was already on, so the risk of a quickhammer seemed pretty low in general. That there was a stated intent made it seem less likely still, so given that we both seemed to think staying on the wagon until post claim was the right move, you can't use that against me, especially since I was the only one of the two of us who stated even a remote willingness to move pending the claim.
--snip--
Mcmc likely hammered because he was afraid of giving mathdude a chance to claim and letting the wagon move to someone else. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember anyone else on the wagon even remotely suggesting they would be willing to move off the wagon, it was only me. So if anything, my willingness to move and mcmc's quickhammer making sure I couldn't actually should be pretty strong evidence that I'm actually NOT mcmc's partner, because he wouldn't have felt so worried about that wagon breaking up post claim.
This is all a bit convoluted. The assumption that mcmc was afraid of giving mathdude a chance to claim is shaky at best. What would he be afraid of? Generally it is favorable to scum to force as many claims a possible D1, and the main alternative wagon at the time was MiX, so it's not like there was a big threat of a scum exile.
That said, of course, I don't really understand why mcmc did what he did. The closest thing I can imagine to a good reason is he wanted to attract the attention of any investigative roles because his role makes him immune to those.
--snip--
Sure scum could have gotten one more person to claim by moving the wagon, but apparently mcmc thought exiling a PR D1 was more important. Scum knows how many PRs there are and so would have a better idea the odds of hitting one or how many there are.
(Unrelated to our cases on each other, but I actually think mcmc's choice there might be evidence that the number of PRs in the game is on the higher side than the minimum, since having a bunch of uncontested PR claims later would make it much harder for scum to escape POE). But actually, maybe it is related, because that future POE based on PRs could be what he was afraid of.
Also, several people commented earlier in the game that town!MiX is sometimes a net positive for scum. It's possible mcmc (and/or scum team depending on daychat or nah) decided a bad looking exile of a PR was worth keeping MiX in the game to obfuscate stuff later.
So yeah, maybe "afraid of mathdude claiming" isn't technically right, but there are quite a few reasons why he might have wanted to be sure that wagon went through instead of letting it go somewhere else, even if town!MiX was the alternative. No matter what the reasoning was, based on what everyone said in thread, I was the person most likely to jump off that wagon (possibly the only person willing to), and mcmc decided not to give mathdude (and consequently me) the chance to break up that wagon. If I were scum with mcmc, there was simply no pressure to quickhammer there because nobody else had expressed a willingness to move, and two people (MiX and yourself) at least had said you were going to force someone to hammer there, so you def weren't moving.
--snip--
So faust had the chance to unvote there too if he wanted more info, but instead reinforced that he wanted mathdude to be hammered, and mcmc obliged immediately. To EFHW's point about me seeing mcmc as a leader or something, how about scum!mcmc following scum!faust's coaching and obliging with the hammer he requested on the spot?
1. Yes, I could have unvoted. At the time I felt that no role that mathdude could claim would make me change my mind of wanting to exile him. I felt like he was trying to live up to ash's claim of "either PR or scum". With hindsight, I should have considered that if a newbie was scum then scum probably would have chosen Daychat and coachied him into making a better claim. Unfortunately I didn't take the time to think things through.
2. But the mcmc/faust partner theory doesn't make much sense at all. Like, if I was scum and wanted to boss around my partner(s), surely I'd pick Daychat for that? Also, this would only account for a scenario where mcmc knows that I am scum, so it wouldn't work for Traitor!me. And finally, why oh why would a mcmc/faust team even make that move? What's the gain? Exiling a PR that we might as well have nightkilled? And the cost is that both of us look incredibly scummy for it, surely we'd have to be aware of that?
3. There is going to be those people who would chime in here with "oh but if one of you dies then the other can make that argument for towncred". Which is just silly. Like, the occasions where you want to actively work towards getting one of your own killed as scum are already incredibly rare. No matter how much towncred is gained the other one can still be found out via PRs or PoE. It's just a bad strategy. I think I argued for the same point before, both as town in a game thread and as scum in a scum QT. If this would convince anybody to not vote for me, I can try to grab some quotes somewhere.
4. Besides, I think there are some players who would follow my orders when we're both scum, but I don't really see mcmc as one of them.
numbers added for reference1. Obviously, D1 I mostly agreed with you, even if I wasn't quite so strongly convinced as you, so I'm not giving you scumpoints for not unvoting. My point there is more if it was scummy for me there, it's at least as scummy for you if not more so.
2. "surely I'd pick daychat for that?" I mean, this is WIFOM, especially the later sentence about why would you make that play. Like I said above, there's a lot of reasons scum could have come up with to push through that exile. Apparently at least mcmc thought it was worth it, and it honestly doesn't really matter if it was him alone or a team decision, because he did it, so at least 1/3 scum thought it was a good idea.
3. The entire concept of distancing from your partners is based on this principle, which isn't silly. In this paragraph, you move the goalposts from heading off the argument "oh but if one of you dies then the other can make that argument for towncred" to "Like, the occasions where you want to actively work towards getting one of your own killed as scum are already incredibly rare" in 3 sentences. Yes, the latter statement is absolutely true. You should not actively work to get your partners killed in what is likely an overwhelming majority of the time. But the former statement does not inherently mean "actively working to get your partner killed." Rather, it's "should one partner get killed, the other has a plausible argument for why they weren't partners."
So to prove you right, I'll go ahead and say yes, you could have made that exact play as partners. In fact, the way you pushed so hard to look off wagon D2 is a generalized form of this exact argument. "Mcmc and his partner would not have made this play together, and as such the people on wagon get towncred and we should look elsewhere." Instead of just distancing yourself, you included a whole group to make it less obvious that this was what you are doing, if in fact you are scum and this is what you were doing at least.
4. This is totally fair, and I mentioned that more as a response to EFHW's comment that I might view mcmc as a leader, not so much as a main point in the case. If EFHW hadn't made that comment, I probably wouldn't have mentioned that at all.
--snip--
I know it will probably be read as omgus, but given that EoD1, and how faust has been driving the conversation and leading several of the less active people along with him (myself included for the last couple days), I actually am starting the think there's a pretty strong case to be made for scum!faust here. More reasons for this read than just this, but I'll have to type them out later.
Now I'm scum for being active? Please. I hope the reasons you withheld are at least a bit more compelling than that.
Nice strawman. Being active obviously is not the same thing as driving the conversation. However, perhaps "driving town" would have been more accurate to what I meant to say than "the conversation." Other players were active, in fact more active, than yourself to this point in the game, and yet the narrative seems to have been pretty consistently around wherever you have been focused. Your role (and my own) in mathdude's exile is decently well documented. Skimming back over D2 and it feels like you were pretty much the driving force behind gkrieg's exile. Other people were pushing other wagons, but your push was the one that held sway. In some way at least then, you were the driving force behind D2.
A couple different times, I've seen people divide up the remaining roster into potential scum buckets like A) active scum leading town astray or B) passive scum letting town destroy itself. Town can totally be active, and in fact is probably better when it is. I wouldn't give scum points to you for being active. In fact, so far you've been at about the level I expect from you, so that's NAI. The way I see the game at this point though, is that either scum is in bucket B and you have been the townie they are letting lead town astray so far, or you are scum in bucket A.
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Topic: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Game Over - Skum Wins! (Read 118587 times)