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[Galzria]

If you unvoted because it's "The proper action" why did you wait to read everything?

This seems like you're trying to justify your predecessor's scummy vote:

Unvote

Vig's should not shoot under any circumstances, until there's absolute necessity for them to do so. They are nothing but a plague on the town.

That said, I don't give Robz much credit for standing firm on the issue. It's something that he and I both feel strongly about. How many games has town won when a Vig shot? The only one that comes to mind is my shot in M-VI - which happened to coincide with the SK shot anyway so was moot (although my other two choices, Theorel and Robz, were both scum that game as well).

Robz, being the most vocal, stands out the most in my reread.

First, his very quick, early vote is extremely uncharacteristic of him. Especially because he didn't cast it over what he would classify as a scummy read, but instead over someone disagreeing with him. Robz - do you really think that Theorel is scum?

Second, the "he likes playing scum" argument. I don't think that's all that solid of a case. I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but I too enjoy playing scum more. I still would have advocated not restarting if possible. RVS sucks, and getting past it can often times be a real challenge. To do it twice in one game? No thank you. Besides, in order to get the roles you like playing, you have to play the roles you don't like.

Third, Robz "buddying" - I believe it was Cuzz who said that it seemed more a scum Robz thing to say "Wow, great point, just not true this time" - and you're right that it used to be that way. Buddying Robz used to equal scummy Robz every time. Now it's a bit more null. Take RMM3 for example, where as the town thief, his response to those saying he had stolen the Ice Cream was "I didn't, but I absolutely see why you think that I did it, and in your shoes I would be voting me as well". I know Robz went through a long streak of being lynched or NK'd on the first day, and he had a long talk with Volt about what he was doing wrong. Since then I've noticed a few small changes. First, he's appearing more care-free - by pushing less solid cases or weaker ideas - and second by being a lot less confrontational. The "yeah, you're probably right" response is becoming much more commonplace.

In regards to this game, and his overall persona, there are enough things that stick out that leave me questioning his townitude. However, those aren't my biggest concerns at this point. While Robz is actively "slightly-scummy", there are others who are far, far less active to date, and the lack of participation stands out much more severely to me than Robz participation does at this time.

It was the first thing in my first post - I was advised by the mod when I substituted in that I reread everything, flavor, posts, and mod-errors before posting - so that's exactly what I did.

[cayvie]

Theorel&Robz&axxle?

sorry axxle I am going to discuss this... but I think this is a role that our friendly Innocent Child could fulfill. Leave it up to raerae to determine when the soft deadline is, how to implement it, and what the penalty will be for non-participation?

And now I am done discussing it... I will leave it to raerae to decide, if rarerae chooses to take on this responsibility.

Whoa, whoa, whoa!  Under Pressure suddenly began playing in my head.  Not cool, dude folk.  Plus, I’ll kill whoever is spreading the filthy lie that I’m friendly. 

Argument:  I don’t feel comfortable making this decision without additional input but I do like Axxle’s statement that talking about it takes up more time than setting one actually saves.  I feel like this is a bit like calling a pre-meeting in corporate life.  1 out of every 20 pre-meetings will be productive but most of the time it’s just a straight waste.  Also, I will be v/la through Friday evening so setting a deadline when I won’t be around (and then probably being killed immediately N1) sounds like a crappy way to finish out this game. 

Concession:  Nobody will ever accurately accuse me of not being a team player, so if the majority of you wonderful people want a soft-deadline of the end of this week with a lynch on whoever has the most votes at that time (is that how this would happen?), I will make it so.

i like soft deadlines. and having an IC to moderate is actually ideal. i'm for it.

[cayvie]

Mostly if I was to pick a name at random (like you suggest he did) to have a scumread on, it wouldn't be on you.

(axxle is bad at randomness)

[Axxle]

Mostly if I was to pick a name at random (like you suggest he did) to have a scumread on, it wouldn't be on you.

(axxle is bad at randomness)

I can pick one of you or Eevee and still be random.  I don't have to include Galz in that choice

[Axxle]

It was the first thing in my first post - I was advised by the mod when I substituted in that I reread everything, flavor, posts, and mod-errors before posting - so that's exactly what I did.

I'll take that into consideration.

[Galzria]

It was the first thing in my first post - I was advised by the mod when I substituted in that I reread everything, flavor, posts, and mod-errors before posting - so that's exactly what I did.

I'll take that into consideration.

Are you calling me a liar?

[Axxle]

It was the first thing in my first post - I was advised by the mod when I substituted in that I reread everything, flavor, posts, and mod-errors before posting - so that's exactly what I did.

I'll take that into consideration.

Are you calling me a liar?

Not necessarily, but the fact that you focused entirely on Robz in that post is still scummy to me.

[Galzria]

It was the first thing in my first post - I was advised by the mod when I substituted in that I reread everything, flavor, posts, and mod-errors before posting - so that's exactly what I did.

I'll take that into consideration.

Are you calling me a liar?

Not necessarily, but the fact that you focused entirely on Robz in that post is still scummy to me.

Why so worried about Robz? Protecting your partner?

[Axxle]

Yes.

No wait, the other thing.

[cayvie]

man, troll axxle is funny

are you always this troll-ish?

[Axxle]

I feel trollish today, I'll probably get back to normal tomorrow.

[Galzria]

Man, I don't know why I bothered to sub in - I had forgotten why I stopped playing in three first place. At least, in games that aren't BM anyway.

/shrug

I'm going off to read.

[Cuzz]

I'm actually really getting an odd vibe that yuma is scum. But it's not one of those things i can really justify with "facts" or "evidence" at this juncture. He just seems like scum yuma to me a bit. It might have something to do with this quote:

awesome... now back to hunting those elusive scummies.

which seems really fake to me. It reminds me of a remark I remember him making in MXIV that also seemed a bit over the top.

I'll Vote: yuma again then.

Scummier read on him than on my previous vote of Robz at the moment.

Also Lekkit and Abra being super lurky so far.

[Galzria]

Man, I don't know why I bothered to sub in - I had forgotten why I stopped playing in three first place. At least, in games that aren't BM anyway.

/shrug

I'm going off to read.

To be clear, it's the nature of the game itself that I don't find to be all that enjoyable. I take my word quite seriously, and don't enjoy having it questioned. Even when I'm scum, which I enjoy playing, it's frustrating to be called a liar - and that's just something personal to me, not having any reflection on anybody else. Quite simply, I don't really find these to be fun after awhile.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.6

Robz888 (1): Captain_Frisk
Eevee (2): cayvie, yuma
Galzria (2): Eevee, Axxle
Lekkit (1): theorel
yuma (1): Cuzz

Not Voting (6): Abra655, Galzria, Jimmmmm, Lekkit, raerae, Robz888

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on Thursday, December 20, at 4:30 p.m. forum time.

[Axxle]

Man, I don't know why I bothered to sub in - I had forgotten why I stopped playing in three first place. At least, in games that aren't BM anyway.

/shrug

I'm going off to read.

To be clear, it's the nature of the game itself that I don't find to be all that enjoyable. I take my word quite seriously, and don't enjoy having it questioned. Even when I'm scum, which I enjoy playing, it's frustrating to be called a liar - and that's just something personal to me, not having any reflection on anybody else. Quite simply, I don't really find these to be fun after awhile.

Yeah, I can see how that might affect how much fun you have.

[Jimmmmm]

So it seems our main suspects are Robz, Eevee, Galz and Axxle.


I don't know... day 1 is hard.

I think Robz acting obvscum and claiming that makes him obvtown could very possible be a scum play. You know, WIFOM and all of that.

That's all I really have for now, I'll do a re-read tonight if I have time.

For now, Vote: Lekkit to try to force him out of hiding.

[Eevee]

Vote: Lekkit, now that's something I have done before with great success too. He is not even in any other games (afaik), he should be able to contribute if he wanted to!

[Galzria]

Is the best way to "solve" this setup to count the number of BCDMV roles that you know of, subtract that from 7, and analyze what T possibilities are left? I missed playing this setup the first time around, so I'm not sure.

[Robz888]

Man, I don't know why I bothered to sub in - I had forgotten why I stopped playing in three first place. At least, in games that aren't BM anyway.

/shrug

I'm going off to read.

To be clear, it's the nature of the game itself that I don't find to be all that enjoyable. I take my word quite seriously, and don't enjoy having it questioned. Even when I'm scum, which I enjoy playing, it's frustrating to be called a liar - and that's just something personal to me, not having any reflection on anybody else. Quite simply, I don't really find these to be fun after awhile.

Sad.

[Robz888]

On the other hand, I enjoy being called a liar. Feed me your hatred! It only makes me stronger!

Sorry, Azula was interjecting.

[Robz888]

Is the best way to "solve" this setup to count the number of BCDMV roles that you know of, subtract that from 7, and analyze what T possibilities are left? I missed playing this setup the first time around, so I'm not sure.

The best way to solve the setup is to go the mafiascum page and try to figure out how much of everything else there could be, based on what you know. Like, since we have exactly 1 IC, every combination of Masons other than 0 and 2 is ruled out.

[Galzria]

Is the best way to "solve" this setup to count the number of BCDMV roles that you know of, subtract that from 7, and analyze what T possibilities are left? I missed playing this setup the first time around, so I'm not sure.

The best way to solve the setup is to go the mafiascum page and try to figure out how much of everything else there could be, based on what you know. Like, since we have exactly 1 IC, every combination of Masons other than 0 and 2 is ruled out.

Ehh, but what does that really tell me? There could still be any combination of other rolls to have been rolled, right? Ultimately, it's a total of 7 roles, and from a town perspective, it's BCDMV vs T, where I don't care what BCDMV exist exactly, rather I care about three possibilities of T that exist.

To illustrate, assume I'm VT and have no further knowledge other than we have 1 IC - then looking through the setup all I can conclude is that the only possible scum setup not possible is 7 T's, or "Goon, Godfather, Serial Killer". Every other combination of T (0 to 6) could still exist correct?

Likewise, if I were, say, a 1-shot Roleblocker, I would then know that we had at least 1 M and 2 B, thus the number of T (which again, I posit it what town really cares about) cannot be 7, 6 or 5 - leaving only 0 to 4 as options.

Is this not the best way to determine the setup from any individual town players perspective, or is there more that I can conclude for certain about what scum we may or may not be dealing with? It seems to me that I could care less if we have 1 M or 3, except as it pertains to how many T's we can possible have. Am I wrong?

[Robz888]

Galzria, you're not wrong. It's very hard to guess the setup--anywhere near close to it--Day 1.

In M-XII, we still struggle to figure out if there were enough T's for a Serial Killer, and that was after massclaim.

So while we will spend a lot of time discussing it, don't expect to guess the setup easily, if at all.

[Galzria]

Galzria, you're not wrong. It's very hard to guess the setup--anywhere near close to it--Day 1.

In M-XII, we still struggle to figure out if there were enough T's for a Serial Killer, and that was after massclaim.

So while we will spend a lot of time discussing it, don't expect to guess the setup easily, if at all.

Well, massclaiming is a ***** in a semi-open setup where scum fakeclaiming skews everything and you have no clue who is scum so you're no closer to solving anything of value.

Hence my question wasn't geared to a "how can town solve this", and instead was a "what's the best way to maximize the information I can have"? - I don't want to miss possibilities when putting my notes together; it won't do me any good while scum hunting, nor will it do town any good if I paste said notes before being lynched. I just want to be as thorough as I can be within my knowledge level (as little as that may seem to be).