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[cayvie]

i don't unvote, usually; i frequently forget who i'm voting for if i didn't place it recently.

[yuma]

Robz's post that Axxle quotes is the 150th post of the game. Actually it is more like the ~75 of the game because the first post of game start was post 75.

So I don't really think it is that far fetched for someone with only 4 posts to be a scum read. However, I do think it is far fetched to believe that someone could have a strong scum read on any one individual. But perhaps Robz wasn't implying a strong read... but instead was just providing an answer to axxle's consistent questioning.

I don't know. I am not Robz. But I haven't found him to be scummy this game.

[raerae]

First, sorry, I accidentally wrote a book.
Second, here it is:

Here's a theory: Robz is a Serial Killer.

He comes straight out of the blocks saying "Don't vig!", knowing of course that there will be at least one extra night-kill each night, and then he can act indignant each morning because some Vigilante isn't toeing the line. "Why do you keep killing our Townies?" he demands. "I told you not to vig!" Meanwhile he looks very Town because he warned us all that this was going to happen, but someone didn't listen.

Having said that, I actually think he's probably Town, although I don't have any stronger reads so he's still my number 1 suspect.

oh i'm going to like playing with you

this is exactly the type of theory i like

I totally agree with cayvie, this is super interesting.  Also interesting is robz' offhanded response to the accusation.  All game robz has been telling us he's town, telling us "the best" way to play, and, dare I say, being real warm and fuzzy.   In his first response to me (post #92) he first tells me he’s super experienced (damn, boy) and then answers my question all the while insinuating he’s town.  The part that felt most awkward to me was this:

Since you are the Innocent Child I can't really bounce my thoughts on whether people are playing to their town or scum "meta" off on you, because you don't know--you've never played with these people.

In post #98 he advocates lynching all lurkers and goes on to have the highest post count thereby keeping himself safe from lynch, at least for lurking. (I understand this is a popular idea but I don’t know that it really holds water anymore.  More on that later if necessary/requested.)
The fish for a cop or doctor in #100 has been discussed by…dang, a bunch of you?  But Robz response to being called out for it is borderline cocky and he again all but says “I’m town!  I’m town!” by this (#192):

This is actually a pretty good reason to vote for me. I salute Frisk for catching it.
It's also something I would have obviously self-filtered if I were scum.

And again!  Warm, fuzzy, semi-condescending, look-how-town-I-am Robz. 

Well, here goes some more buddying, but that's a genius suggestion. Seriously impressive. Not the case though, sadly.

All that horrible quoting aside, I have to put what faith I can into Galzria’s post (#225) about how that was old scum Robz, not new-scum Robz.  I am not ready to vote but I am looking longingly at that Robz wagon. 

I think it would be AMAZING to hear words from people like Lekkit and Abra…speak up, boys.

[yuma]

has eevee been vla?

eevee is normally toward the top of the post count list and sure wasn't in cayvie's list in post 200 and hasn't posted since then.

vote: eevee

[Eevee]

nah, just day 1 silliness. i'll participate by vote: Galzria. someone got to end the RVS.

[Axxle]

Vote: Eevee We're clearly out of RVS

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.5

Robz888 (2): Captain_Frisk, Cuzz
Eevee (3): cayvie, yuma, Axxle
Axxle (1): theorel
Galzria (1): Eevee

Not Voting (6): Abra655, Galzria, Jimmmmm, Lekkit, raerae, Robz888

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on Thursday, December 20, at 4:30 p.m. forum time.

[theorel]

@raerae: In every case I can think of when someone has been accused of over-emphasizing their town-itude (i.e. when they've been accuse of saying "I'm town!"), they've been town.  The case that immediately comes to mind is jo in MIV (long time ago).  Or if you consider the VT claim to be the most egregious form of this, then it's happened in several games.  In all cases they've been town.  It just feels to me like this is an accusation often leveled, and often misplaced.  I would like to offer useful positive advice at this point, i.e. "things to look out for", but I'm not sure I know what those things are.

While votes have been building pretty fast, I think we should do a soft deadline for this game.  Maybe next Wednesday?

Also, Vote: Lekkit.  Say something.  People of particular interest are Robz and Eevee.  A general early-reads of everyone list would be great.  How do you think we can catch scum?  I know you feel like you've got nothing to say, but just try to say something.  Pick a player you think needs more attention and write a book on them.

Also would be nice to hear from Abra, looks like he usually posts later in the evening though.

[yuma]

While votes have been building pretty fast, I think we should do a soft deadline for this game.  Maybe next Wednesday?

if we are going to do a soft deadline then it needs to be one with serious repercussions, similar to the one that I pushed in MXI. That is that if I feel people are not participating or are only trying to derail wagons then we turn on them with vengeance. A deadline w/o a penalty means nothing.  I personally would prefer a deadline before the weekend as I will be VLA starting Monday, but we obviously can't dictate a game around my schedule.

[Axxle]

I find discussion of soft deadlines tend to take up more time than the soft deadlines save.

[Axxle]

And that's all I have to say about that.

[Galzria]

I'm amenable to the usage of a soft-deadline. It's worked quite well at least once, and it keeps everybody honest by forcing out opinions, stances and votes.

[yuma]

sorry axxle I am going to discuss this... but I think this is a role that our friendly Innocent Child could fulfill. Leave it up to raerae to determine when the soft deadline is, how to implement it, and what the penalty will be for non-participation?

And now I am done discussing it... I will leave it to raerae to decide, if rarerae chooses to take on this responsibility.

[Axxle]

Sure.  That works.  As long as we have an arbitrator that has the final word so we aren't just endlessly discussing it.

[yuma]

awesome... now back to hunting those elusive scummies.

Eevee why did you vote Galz? What are your thoughts thus far in this game? What is your read on me?

[theorel]

Oh, I should probably comment on the Eevee thing that's started up.  Hmmm...I actually like the case on Eevee right now.  Not only has he posted little, but his posts sound off.  I'm having difficulty expressing why, and when I started to type something up, I was just paraphrasing all his posts.

I'll hit one example:

When I read that, I thought "man, if I was scum, I would NEVER say something like that, so Robz is probably town..", but I didn't post it because I'm starting to realize I have a bias in WISHING certain people are town and letting that affect my reads.

This just reads to me like: I was going to post that, but didn't want to reinforce a town image of Robz.  I mean it's the sort of thing I think when I'm scum.  I wouldn't say that I thought it later, because I'd feel like it would sound scummy, so when Eevee says it, it *surprise* sounds scummy... 

Let's see scumScore for this game should start at a base of around 3/13 ~ 25%.  So I'd say Eevee's score is around a 30 to me at this point.  I'd like to hear more and re-evaluate the read later.

Pre-edit: I'm good with yuma's suggestion for raerae to decide.  To offer a counter to his desire for end-of-the-week: I feel like end of the week would make for a short day1.  And I feel like rushing day1 is a mistake, because it provides the groundwork for all future days analysis.  Sat-Mon is bad because weekend participation always bottoms out.  Finally as a point of note: 3 days is tomorrow night, so we'll be using bankable days after that.  IMO bankable days are most needed in the first three "days", so if we divided them equally we'd get 9 days for each "day" putting the deadline on Wednesday.  If we want more time for later, that pretty much argues for end-of-the-week though.  Poorly placed weekend here.

[Eevee]

I'm fine with raerae deciding.

awesome... now back to hunting those elusive scummies.

Eevee why did you vote Galz? What are your thoughts thus far in this game? What is your read on me?

First of all, I thought my joke about ending the Robz Voting Stage was pretty clever.

I voted for Galzria because someone just posted all of Watno's contributions and they didn't look particularly towny. Neither did Galzria's appearance, and I have a hard time not having a town read on him. Got to start somewhere. I'll reread you and comment on the next post.

[yuma]

Here are the four posts that I made before becoming "me". Robz named Watno (after much teeth pulling by Axxle to put forth a name), but didn't offer up any reason for his suspicion.

Directly to Axxle's question and point, Robz said he didn't want to restart the game because he was already building reads. That particular quote was made prior to the last Watno quote, so in truth if Watno was his biggest scum read, it was based on only the first three quotes only.

Additionally, I find it interesting that Robz would be willing to place his vote on Theorel over a disagreement, admitting that he didn't, and doesn't, find Theorel himself scummy - yet it took so long to unvote, and further, took quite a time to hey him to say who his actual scum reads are on - although he's not voting those reads.

It just doesn't feel all that genuine. Feels like he grabbed a name and threw it out there.

I'm up.

I think we shouldn't be discussing the power role distribution now, since the probablities of stuff being in are different for those who have a power role.

I agree with Eevee here. The vigs-should-shoot-as-often-as-possible philosophy isn't new, and I remember it being discussed before. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, but it makes no sense to vote someone for a different opinion on that matter, since it is unlikely to be related to his alignment. I think its well possible that Robz is trying to make use of people thinking that scum wouldn't start off the game by expressing a controversial opinion on a meta-matter (I think Eevee was obvtown because of something similar in some ZM, and no robz might be trying to emulate it).
So vote: Robz until there's something better.

I think trying to provoke fights is a good thing. People fighting are way more likely to say something they shouldn't have said as scum.

@Mods: Can you clarify wether the proabilities of outcomes of the role distribution were affected by the mistake?

The RVS joke flew over my head...

Interestingly, it is Galz, the person you are voting for, who pulled up these quotes on Watno... now he doesn't find them scummy, but he has a bias. But I kinda agree with him, as I said before in response to Robz voting Watno that it is hard to see someone getting a scum read based off only 4 posts, especially when that player opted out to replace due to being busy.

[Eevee]

9 posts before the game starts, 16 after. First 7 are introductions, discussing vig strategy or correcting vote couns, I don't think any of these is particularly relevant to yuma's alignment. Cuzz votes for yuma for a case that's flimsy at best, yuma points this out and votes for Cuzz. I agree with yuma on Cuzz's case, and people like to omgus back when accused with false reasons, so I don't glean anything from this either. Next yuma says he hasnt found Robz scummy in this game, and mildly defends him against Axxle's accusations. I agree with him again, Robz-wagon seems to be there mainly because it's Robz. Next yuma notes I've been awfully silent. Nope, not VLA per ce, just.. not yet that into this game, have little reads and not much to say. I feel I'm like this day 1 a lot, and then pick up my activity later. I think it's mostly a stylistic thing, if I joined fewer games, I might commence rereads already on day 1 and be a better player. Maybe I should try this. (Note, being alive in several games doesn't really affect my activity due to not having time to post. I'm around plenty, it just muddies up my reads a bit, especially in early game.) Then a couple of posts discussing a soft deadline, again something I don't think will be any different regardless of his alignment, and finally the post of asking me questions I just quoted above. That's yuma this far in this game. Analysis of this information: dunno. Hasn't done much anything make me think he is town or scum. That's possibly a mild scum tell for me personally because I take town reads much better than scum reads, so using theorel's scum-o-meter I'll give yuma a 27 (25 was the base). Watnolzria is at 32. Robz at 20.

[Axxle]

First of all, I thought my joke about ending the Robz Voting Stage was pretty clever.

*whoosh*

Vote: Galzria

I think robz's responses was acceptable, not great, but ok.

I think watno's vote on robz was a bit scummy, I think Galz unvoted since he knew it was scummy, I think Galz's interaction with Robz isn't much better.

I already think there is good chance of there being one scum/one town between robz and galz, more so than any other pair of people.

[raerae]

Theorel&Robz&axxle?

sorry axxle I am going to discuss this... but I think this is a role that our friendly Innocent Child could fulfill. Leave it up to raerae to determine when the soft deadline is, how to implement it, and what the penalty will be for non-participation?

And now I am done discussing it... I will leave it to raerae to decide, if rarerae chooses to take on this responsibility.

Whoa, whoa, whoa!  Under Pressure suddenly began playing in my head.  Not cool, dude folk.  Plus, I’ll kill whoever is spreading the filthy lie that I’m friendly. 

Argument:  I don’t feel comfortable making this decision without additional input but I do like Axxle’s statement that talking about it takes up more time than setting one actually saves.  I feel like this is a bit like calling a pre-meeting in corporate life.  1 out of every 20 pre-meetings will be productive but most of the time it’s just a straight waste.  Also, I will be v/la through Friday evening so setting a deadline when I won’t be around (and then probably being killed immediately N1) sounds like a crappy way to finish out this game. 

Concession:  Nobody will ever accurately accuse me of not being a team player, so if the majority of you wonderful people want a soft-deadline of the end of this week with a lynch on whoever has the most votes at that time (is that how this would happen?), I will make it so.

[Galzria]

First of all, I thought my joke about ending the Robz Voting Stage was pretty clever.

*whoosh*

Vote: Galzria

I think robz's responses was acceptable, not great, but ok.

I think watno's vote on robz was a bit scummy, I think Galz unvoted since he knew it was scummy, I think Galz's interaction with Robz isn't much better.

I already think there is good chance of there being one scum/one town between robz and galz, more so than any other pair of people.

Try again, Axxle. I unvoted because it's the proper action to do when one takes over for another player. If my reads are the same, I'll place the vote back. If they're different, I'll move it. At all times I'll discuss my reasoning for doing so.
Now, you claim that MY interaction with Robz seems scummy, but you give no details. Was it the post in which I outlined the things that have been said about Robz this game and gave my thoughts on them? If so, please explain.

Was it the post where I questioned Robz scum read (that you pushed him into declaring, and he gave no follow-up to) on Wayno by providing Watno's 4 posts? If so, please explain how my asking him to explain is scummy.

[Galzria]

First of all, I thought my joke about ending the Robz Voting Stage was pretty clever.

*whoosh*

Vote: Galzria

I think robz's responses was acceptable, not great, but ok.

I think watno's vote on robz was a bit scummy, I think Galz unvoted since he knew it was scummy, I think Galz's interaction with Robz isn't much better.

I already think there is good chance of there being one scum/one town between robz and galz, more so than any other pair of people.

Further, you claim that you read Robz responses as "acceptable", and yet he has offered no reasons or explanations of his Watno response since making it. So I'm curious what justification in his responses read as "acceptable"to you?

[Axxle]

If you unvoted because it's "The proper action" why did you wait to read everything?

This seems like you're trying to justify your predecessor's scummy vote:

Unvote

Vig's should not shoot under any circumstances, until there's absolute necessity for them to do so. They are nothing but a plague on the town.

That said, I don't give Robz much credit for standing firm on the issue. It's something that he and I both feel strongly about. How many games has town won when a Vig shot? The only one that comes to mind is my shot in M-VI - which happened to coincide with the SK shot anyway so was moot (although my other two choices, Theorel and Robz, were both scum that game as well).

Robz, being the most vocal, stands out the most in my reread.

First, his very quick, early vote is extremely uncharacteristic of him. Especially because he didn't cast it over what he would classify as a scummy read, but instead over someone disagreeing with him. Robz - do you really think that Theorel is scum?

Second, the "he likes playing scum" argument. I don't think that's all that solid of a case. I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but I too enjoy playing scum more. I still would have advocated not restarting if possible. RVS sucks, and getting past it can often times be a real challenge. To do it twice in one game? No thank you. Besides, in order to get the roles you like playing, you have to play the roles you don't like.

Third, Robz "buddying" - I believe it was Cuzz who said that it seemed more a scum Robz thing to say "Wow, great point, just not true this time" - and you're right that it used to be that way. Buddying Robz used to equal scummy Robz every time. Now it's a bit more null. Take RMM3 for example, where as the town thief, his response to those saying he had stolen the Ice Cream was "I didn't, but I absolutely see why you think that I did it, and in your shoes I would be voting me as well". I know Robz went through a long streak of being lynched or NK'd on the first day, and he had a long talk with Volt about what he was doing wrong. Since then I've noticed a few small changes. First, he's appearing more care-free - by pushing less solid cases or weaker ideas - and second by being a lot less confrontational. The "yeah, you're probably right" response is becoming much more commonplace.

In regards to this game, and his overall persona, there are enough things that stick out that leave me questioning his townitude. However, those aren't my biggest concerns at this point. While Robz is actively "slightly-scummy", there are others who are far, far less active to date, and the lack of participation stands out much more severely to me than Robz participation does at this time.

[Axxle]

First of all, I thought my joke about ending the Robz Voting Stage was pretty clever.

*whoosh*

Vote: Galzria

I think robz's responses was acceptable, not great, but ok.

I think watno's vote on robz was a bit scummy, I think Galz unvoted since he knew it was scummy, I think Galz's interaction with Robz isn't much better.

I already think there is good chance of there being one scum/one town between robz and galz, more so than any other pair of people.

Further, you claim that you read Robz responses as "acceptable", and yet he has offered no reasons or explanations of his Watno response since making it. So I'm curious what justification in his responses read as "acceptable"to you?

Mostly if I was to pick a name at random (like you suggest he did) to have a scumread on, it wouldn't be on you.