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[ashersky]

@ashersky: I haven't really had any town/scum-vibes from either Insom or Galz this game, and that's why I was curious. You seem to think Robz is town when everyone else is suspecting him because of his statement about not participating much in the beginning and pretty much only doing random flavor. I would still like to know why you think Robz is town, as I think so too.

The thing is, you do look kind of suspicious to me, as two of the people who voted for you are on your scum-read list, jo have been voting for you and he's on the list as well. And you seem to think you were at L-4, which you were't really close to. Who else did you think was voting for you?

Robz is always hard to read, or at least its always hard to explain one's read on Robz, and this game is no different.  When I think he's town, he's scum.  When he seems scummy, he's town.  So far this game, he's been slightly scummy, which usually means he's town Robz.  So that's where I'm coming from on him.  Also, his "I just don't have that much to say so far" is just believable.

I fully accept I've struck a few folks as scummy.  In fact, as you note, I thought I was at L-4 already--I missed an unvote in there somewhere (Dsell maybe?), and maybe others have just called me scummy without voting.  Fact is, I'm not, so that's off.  @Lekkit, this is our first game together, so you won't know how I've read to others before.  I do seem to instill a want to go postal in a lot of folks though, for some reason.

[ashersky]

Yes, I also found that odd.

In response to your reasons for finding me scummy:

Your cases against myself and cayvie were self-evidently weak, so I didn't feel I needed to spell it out. Your vote on cayvie was predicated on thinking an obvious joke was serious and your case on me was for my very first post of the game, idle speculation about the flavor.

It just read to me as a lazy attempt to look like you were scumhunting.

The other part seems to be that I post a lot and there isn't a whole lot of game-relevant content. I gleefully concede the former. The latter is somewhat a matter of opinion, but I feel I've pulled my weight so far D1. I dislike making people read long books that include my thoughts on every other player. I much prefer to focus on one or two scumspects at a time, and attack them in short snippets.

I still argue that the "obvjoke" post of Cayvie's wasn't so weak an argument as you make it, and I'm not the only one here that felt that way.  As mentioned before, it looked like such an obvious joke that to me it was Cayvie trying to seem like he was joking.  It was enough for me to follow-up, we talked about it, enough of the town was convinced it was harmless, we've moved on.  Doesn't make me scummy.

On you, well, you just continue to sound scummy in your posts.  As for me pointing at your first post of the game, it's a sound scum play to post stuff early on so they can then point to it being "early on" and not really important or relevant.  You're a good mafia player, and I could see it.  You're not my strongest scum read, though, so that's just out there to think about.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm gonna start my reread now. I'm also making fudge, so it could take a while.

I hope this isn't a euphemism.

But why make your own fudge?  Are you too good for the fudge available in the Great Hall?

I hope it is a euphemism, because that would be epic trolling.

My first thought on the fudge-claim, was that fudgemaking was a very unscumlike pursuit, but I still have a view of DSell as a lying sack of scum from MIV, which I recognize has no bearing on his role in this game.

[Dsell]

I'm gonna start my reread now. I'm also making fudge, so it could take a while.

I hope this isn't a euphemism.

But why make your own fudge?  Are you too good for the fudge available in the Great Hall?

I hope it is a euphemism, because that would be epic trolling.

My first thought on the fudge-claim, was that fudgemaking was a very unscumlike pursuit, but I still have a view of DSell as a lying sack of scum from MIV, which I recognize has no bearing on his role in this game.

Not a euphemism, but that would be hilarious! Also I have just been generally busy tonight so I'm only like halfway through, but I'm resuming again now.

In MIV I was a total lying sack of scum, but I have reformed.

[Eevee]

Back from the land of lurk! Note because I just checked it: one week until deadline, so no hurry but it's coming.

I think shraeye is mischaracterizing my play (hi, this again); I definitely have tried to make things happen. I dont quite know how to explain this, but what I'd like to walk away from d1 with is as many "if x flips z, then y is probably q" sort of reads as possible. If we force scum to take positions, they might a) be caught in an inconsistency or b) will at least have to take positions (so need to risk becoming obvscum or bus at least to an extent this early in the game). So, people who participate less become obvtown less often and skate through with no responsibilities as scum more easily, and thats why day1 should imo be about getting people on record as much as possible, and someone who isnt very memorable or participating is the optimal lynch target.

/rant, still under influence but wanted to get back to this game.

[Eevee]

i dont mean to count how many posts or words people have, thats why i dont shout lynch all lurkers.i want content about relations between people, disagreements/agreements and willingness to lynch or lack of it. being online when the votes eventually start to pile is one excellent way of giving town good material.

[Galzria]

Interesting that the two people who've called me scummy have listed the following reasons:

1) I am lurking scummily

-- I disagree. There's only 2 people with more posts than me, and neither by exceptionally large margins. If you wish to make an argument regarding posts vs quality posts, I'll gladly pit what I've contributed thusfar against anyone here. Again, I may not be leading, but I think you'll find that I'm towards the leading edge. So I can't see how this accusation bears any weight.

2) I've not offered anything resembling content, and I was in no way directly responsible for a diminished RVS.

-- I suppose this is a matter of opinion, but I feel quite differently. I've been very forward in focusing on the content of this game - it's flavor - which I believe will be an integral part. Maybe others aren't used to RMM games, especially ones hosted by eHal, but he doesn't flavor lightly. He went on and on ad nauseum about how people weren't reading his flavor in RMM-1, when it blatantly gave huge hints to the setup, and here the title of the game is "Read the freaking flavor". I don't expect it to identify the scum, but I do expect it'll give us information about the setup, and what exactly we're dealing with.

I find it even more fascinating that the person who accuses me of #1, when listing his reads, doesn't list the person accusing me of #2 (one of just 3 people he fails to mention - Post #532 for reference) - despite the fact that accuser #2 has the lowest post count next to Lekkit - and 1/3 of what I've posted.

So FoS to Ashersky.

No FoS on Watno, though I do find his opening tunneling me odd.
---

Shraeye, you're right in your analysis of my play. I have said a lot, but a whole lot of that has been information, not analysis. If you go back and look at past games D1 though, I think you'll find this is often the case for me early in the day. I'm decent when it comes to picking out scum - above average even - and I have a tendency to lock on once I do. But up until that point, I generally find that I offer tidbits here and there of what I'm thinking. I've been called out in other games for appearing like I'm trying to skate by - but it's just the way I operate best. I have no problems if that makes you uncomfortable because it means you're trying - something scum often doesn't do genuinely.

Right now my vote is on Robz. Ash and Joth have composed themselves in ways that stand out to me. Arch has flown WAY under my radar, as has Frisk. If I had day-investigate, I would probably check someone who was very middling. Present, contributing, unsuspicious, but not too townie either. Probably Dsell, maybe Eevee Hard to say.

Anyway, I want to reread with a focus on individuals, but that'll happen tomorrow most likely.

[ashersky]

@Galz

Good post.  I would note that you are listed as the least scummy of the scum reads, as they are in descending order.  Your most recent post is helpful.

Eevee, joth, and Cayvie remain the scummiest to me.  Nothing of note from them to change that, but it has been the weekend.  Eevee did chime in, I've taken stands throughout, as he prefers.

[Dsell]

I'm a ridiculous pony and haven't finished the reread yet because my evening was just busy, but I'm almost done and I'll for sure be done tomorrow afternoon.

I do feel like I have some ok town reads though: Galz, ftl, Insom, and to some extent Shraeye and Ashersky (who I had a beef with earlier in the game for the silly cayvie wagon)

Of course these aren't terribly strong reads and are very liable to change, but they're what I've got. I'm saving scum reads/cases for tomorrow when I'm fully done.

[cayvie]

Here's some reread reads.

Archetype: Looks very much like town to me. If he was faking being lost early today, he was doing a very good job. He seems to have gained some focus lately.

ashersky: I don't have a handle on him. He makes statements like calling Eevee "calm and collected", that just seem odd to me (though, admittedly, I didn't may much attention to MX). Also, ash really has been after me from the start. The lack of support on that wagon kind of makes me think he doesn't have scumbuddies. If ash and shraeye are scum together, trying to wagon me, they're doing a really hamfisted job of it. I give them both more credit than that, I think. Ashersky looks better on a reread than I thought he would.

Captain_Frisk: Looks pretty scummy, really. Though he might just be bored. But affecting boredom can be a scum stratagem! I especially don't like the bit where he's like "ok time to reread" then he's like "nothing to analyze, l8rs." Seriously, seems to care more about comparing Matrix movies than playing this game.

cayvie: *begins staring contest with mirror* Oh hey, I'm kind of starting to realize that I'm pretty susceptible to flattery. People have been complimenting my play lately, and I think it's actually affecting my reads of them. Which is funny, I didn't realize that about myself.

Dsell: I think this is my first townread on him ever! Not really sure why I have one, he hasn't said much. But I do. I'm looking forward to his promised reread analysis.

Eevee: very town. Just saying a lot of things, throwing his vote around, I like that kind of play.

ftl: moderate scum. Supporting flavorclaims seems particularly scummy in this game, since we have some evidence (galz's word, but still) it's a bad idea. Also, I still contend he misrepresented jotheonah re: voltaire.

Galzria: pretty town. Though, this particular paragraph sounds like scumgalz to me:

Shraeye, you're right in your analysis of my play. I have said a lot, but a whole lot of that has been information, not analysis. If you go back and look at past games D1 though, I think you'll find this is often the case for me early in the day. I'm decent when it comes to picking out scum - above average even - and I have a tendency to lock on once I do. But up until that point, I generally find that I offer tidbits here and there of what I'm thinking. I've been called out in other games for appearing like I'm trying to skate by - but it's just the way I operate best. I have no problems if that makes you uncomfortable because it means you're trying - something scum often doesn't do genuinely.

I feel scumgalz often deflects accusations of scummy behavior by being like "that behavior is just like this other behavior I always do as town"

[Jorbles]

A couple quick hits, now that I've caught up.

shraeye:

Reread complete.  Reads are as follows.
REMOVED WALL OF TEXT
I've got to get ready to go to a bachelor party now, I'll be back tomorrow to post my analysis on the remaining players.

You did all this in the middle of a bachelor party? Hopefully it wasn't yours? Anyhow this essay removes the scum read I had on shraeye. I don't think it's in scum's interest to put this much info out there. I no longer think he's scummy.

Dsell:
No one else likes my vote on Dsell. I think he's been hanging back and playing really cautiously. Also I know he is devious because of MIV (thank you for reminding me of that whoever it was), so I don't think he would make the sort of obvious mistakes everyone else is looking for. I would happily lynch him, but since no one else seems into it I am going to swap my vote to my second favourite lynch choice. I would switch back to Dsell if other people start agreeing with me (barring some big changes to his play).

watno:
He voted for Galzria for talking about what he called fluff (flavour and non analysis things) (233, 239, 244) he then proceeded to do the same thing he had accused Galzria of (304, 336, 449 (some minor hedging on the cayvie joke here also)) for like 4 RL days. Then in 535 he goes for the ashersky wagon, in what I still think is players leaping on an incautious town player. Watno has been super lurky, and hasn't even been consistent in the one strong position he's taken. Vote: watno

[Robz888]

I think I still like my Jorbles vote, although very little has stood out to me so far this game.

[Insomniac]

I think I still like my Jorbles vote, although very little has stood out to me so far this game.

I too like my jorbles vote.

[Jorbles]

I think I still like my Jorbles vote, although very little has stood out to me so far this game.

I think I still like my Jorbles vote, although very little has stood out to me so far this game.

I too like my jorbles vote.

And I should look at my detractors too. For the record my read on Insomniac is town and my read on Robz is that he is inscrutable. I probably won't have a real read on Robz until d2, when there's a bit more info to grip onto.

[Captain_Frisk]

@Galz, regarding your RobZ case:

RobZ has a history of loud and bad (results wise) day 1 play as town - MX is the example that sticks out the most to me.  I can understand why he might want to quiet down a bit, would you really rather see that RobZ - who tunnels in on someone and dominates Day 1 discussion?

[Robz888]

@Galz, regarding your RobZ case:

RobZ has a history of loud and bad (results wise) day 1 play as town - MX is the example that sticks out the most to me.  I can understand why he might want to quiet down a bit, would you really rather see that RobZ - who tunnels in on someone and dominates Day 1 discussion?

Uh, me and everybody else. I certainly don't have a history of Day 1 reads that are much worse than anyone else. In the example you cite, I was lynched on Day 1 when I was town. So whose reads were most detrimentally bad there: me, or virtually everyone else?

[Captain_Frisk]

@Galz, regarding your RobZ case:

RobZ has a history of loud and bad (results wise) day 1 play as town - MX is the example that sticks out the most to me.  I can understand why he might want to quiet down a bit, would you really rather see that RobZ - who tunnels in on someone and dominates Day 1 discussion?

Uh, me and everybody else. I certainly don't have a history of Day 1 reads that are much worse than anyone else. In the example you cite, I was lynched on Day 1 when I was town. So whose reads were most detrimentally bad there: me, or virtually everyone else?

I'm not saying that you're out of line, the "i'm teh suck @ day 1" applies to just about everyone, because day 1 is hard

I'm just trying to understand Galz's position as to why you need to be lynched for trying a different approach in this game.

[Dsell]

Ok, I finished up.

I don't feel like I have super strong reads, but definitely some things stuck out to me more on reread.

I mentioned who I thought was looking pretty townie in my last post (although since then one of Shraeye's posts reminded me that ftl was really back-and-forth on the flavor-claim thing), so here are some other reads.

Cayvie: I defended her earlier on because people Ash and Shraeye were voting for her based on a joke post, and those were terrible votes. However, that doesn't make her any more townie. Over the course of the game ash and shraeye look more townie to me whereas I still have a neutral read on cayvie, which is a bit unusual because she nearly always reads town to me.

Robz: Took some heat early for not posting a lot, he really still hasn't posted a ton. Just not a lot of content at all. That's a bit unusual for him and because of his penchant for switching up his scum play, he looks scummy to me. Nothing that he actually has said looks very scummy to me though (except maybe his "I'm not withholding, I just have no reads" thing).

Archetype: Back and forth a tiny bit on Archetype but mostly a big neutral, I want to see more from you please.

Captain_Frisk: I guess I have a very minor town read on you, but mostly not much of anything.

Lekkit: Hardly anything. Slightly scummy? Mostly nothing.

Jorbles: Back and forth on Jorbles too. I haven't seen a reason for the vote on me aside from "He's playing cautiously" which is maybe fair but last week was really busy and I haven't posted a lot. When I have posted, I feel like I've been open about my views on things and I've had some strong views too, so I'm not sure exactly what the cautious play you're referring to is. I am having trouble with your refusal to participate in flavor-claiming. I could see it being a town thing to do or a scum thing to do, and I believe I've done similar things as both scum and (half) town. I feel ok with leaving him alone for now I guess, but I do feel like he's either going to be quite strong or quite dangerous down the road.

[Dsell]

I'll have more reads and things to say coming up in an hour and a half or so.

[Watno]

@Jorbles: What do you mean by the only strong position I have taken? As said, I don't think my reasoning I had against Galz was particularily strong, there just wasn't anything stronger at that time.

Regarding people voting for Jorbles: I don't really see your case. While I think actually being the only one not to participate in some kind of claim, anouncing to do so is something I think would be quite risky as scum.

[Insomniac]

@Jorbles: What do you mean by the only strong position I have taken? As said, I don't think my reasoning I had against Galz was particularily strong, there just wasn't anything stronger at that time.

Regarding people voting for Jorbles: I don't really see your case. While I think actually being the only one not to participate in some kind of claim, anouncing to do so is something I think would be quite risky as scum.

Alright it's my case so I'll restate it. Alot of his early posts were jokey, (not all). Which didn't really bother me until he refused to participate in a mass claim which is something that has always been true of scum. In games on f.DS refusal to participate in a mass claim has ALWAYS been done by scum town always participates even when it goes against there better judgement.

[Dsell]

PPE1: I AM SO SORRY THAT THIS POST IS ENORMOUS. PLEASE READ IT ALL ANYWAY, INCLUDING WHAT'S WITHIN QUOTES.

Man, this game is just not nearly as interesting as MXII right now, is it??

One last fairly neutral read: Watno. He actually seems kinda scummy to me, but it's really the same kind of scumminess he's had before flipping town before. So I'm wary, but my gut is telling me scum and head is telling me probably town.

Anyway. I posted my town reads, my mostly neutral reads, now for my scummier reads. And there's only two!

Jotheonah: Something feels really off here. I don't have a case like I do for my scummiest candidate, but jo's posts just ring a bit hollow this game. I agree with Shraeye who said that jo has the highest post-to-content ratio. Often on day 1, jo runs around doing a lot things, voting, making cases, even doing some town gambits. And he's nearly always town. Or SK. I haven't followed a game in which he's been mafia. So definitely some red flags are going up here when jo's being chattery but not memorable.

Which brings us to Eevee. Eevee is one who's tricky for a lot of people because he either looks always like town to them or always like scum (even though he's usually town). He's always looked town to me except the end of MIII (where he was scum) and MVII (where he was town). In this game, though, Eevee's done lots and lots of little things that seem just a little scummy to me, and they've all added up to make him pretty scummy in my eyes. I probably sound like a broken record in my games, but I'd encourage everyone to go back and reread what he's posted and tell me some of what's said doesn't seem wrong. I'm gonna list a lot of these little thing, they're not major, but they strike me as little things that I would do as scum to subtly confuse the town.

One of the first posts of the game, he agrees with someone who suggests that the numbers may mean number of people in various factions, and extends the idea a bit too.

After it was revealed that the numbers spelled out "Neo is the one." eevee asks if/suggests that it was merely a distraction from eHalc (In a game where the NAME tells us to read the flavor). Asks if Neo is relevant to game, light rolefishing. Next post, eevee suggests that eHalc is just messing with us. This all reminds me of the kind of naivety eevee affected in MIII.

Asks if we're doing RVS wrong, that people like him tend to skate through. When I was scum, if I didn't feel people were suspecting me much, I was very very tempted to post things like this, saying that I'm not getting enough scrutiny. Seems like easy town points, kinda taking one for the team.

i dont understand any of the votes i think robz is probably up to something, but see that something as likely town-aligned. Is this the kind of thing i should just let be because it benefits the town even though i dont understand it?

This post is another big one for me. In the very first RMM game I was scum and I made several such posts just saying how confused I was, even though I wasn't really. It was mostly RVS with a bit of theme, which really isn't much different from any other RVS.

Posted some town reads really early in the day. Which strikes me as something that town-eevee might do too, but still.

Eevee takes every opportunity to question little things, which isn't necessarily scummy but feels to me like he's testing the waters to see if something someone does will stick and turn into a wagon. He does this with Shraeye's "whispering" and the "possible scumslip" from cayvie. Then does the same thing with the people voting cayvie (by voting for ashersky). This is something I did too so I'm not saying that specific thing is super scummy, but so much testing of the waters feels wrong to me.

My votes are to prod people to get here, seems to work. Shouldn't maybe tell it's just a prod though, shoot.

This is pretty classic "silly little eevee" scum.

Well, don't you have the saying "the first step in fixing a problem is recognizing that there's a problem to be fixed"? I don't think I give guys who post long and often a pass as much as I used to, so maybe I'll start working on this next. 

This kinda is too.

He gets all confident good-feelings about the ashersky wagon but just drops it later and votes for Archetype instead. Specifically, he says that he thinks we're doing better at D1 because we don't go after people who are being openly scummy or making mistakes, then votes for Archetype for taking a scummy position/making a mistake. Here are the posts:

Eevee, I sort of agree that we are getting better at day 1, but that translates to not much of anything sticking out to me one way or another. Hopefully a reread will help.

We go after better candidates nowadays (the guys who play different than usual, preferably in that they try to stay in the back and never really say anything or take positions, compared to the earlier meta of lynching someone for being controversial [sadly still happens] or for making a stupid comment or a mistake).

That came out confusing, probably time to head to sleeps already. I'll be VLA for the entire tomorrow (my former room mate is moving to mexico and having a farewell party), won't be reading/posting in the next 36 hours.

PPE: @ftl
I meant why the vote?

I also really haven't put a vote on anyone, so I'll go with a Vote: ftl for now. Probably will change once things start heating up.

Couldn't resist checking the thread once more from phone and glad I didn't; this stood out as ultra-scummy to me. Seems like arhetype is setting himself up so that he can jump on any other wagon that might get rolling later. Cant quite word it clearly but myube you get what I mean? Isnt that the classiciest scum hedge behaviour ever?
Vote: archetype (before anyone jumps on me for voting for a mistake, I dont consider this a mistake but a very scummy position)

After saying it wasn't a mistake, he writes:

I also really haven't put a vote on anyone, so I'll go with a Vote: ftl for now. Probably will change once things start heating up.

Couldn't resist checking the thread once more from phone and glad I didn't; this stood out as ultra-scummy to me. Seems like arhetype is setting himself up so that he can jump on any other wagon that might get rolling later. Cant quite word it clearly but myube you get what I mean? Isnt that the classiciest scum hedge behaviour ever?
Vote: archetype (before anyone jumps on me for voting for a mistake, I dont consider this a mistake but a very scummy position)

I didn't mean to appear scummy, but honestly, I don't really see any players that stand out as scummy. I guess I just worded it in a way so that it sounds scummy.

So yes it was a misunderstanding and I could have worded it a lot better.

Saying 'i didnt mean to appear scummy' isnt the sharpest defence.. But sure, townies can make mistakes too and I won't completely crucify you for that, but let it be known I now find you the scummiest of us and for that am voting for you. Still also like ashersky though.

So...was it a mistake or not?

Well...that is my case. It grew a bit as I wrote it, too. But things just feel off here. With as long as this post is, I wish I felt more confident about this case, but it's definitely something.

PPE2: Again, Insom, when I refused to participate in a massclaim in BMV, I was half-scum, but I believe I would have done the same if I was town, so I can't really agree that it has ALWAYS been done by scum, or that town always participates.

[Dsell]

Lawlz I forgot to vote.

Vote: Eevee

[Archetype]

Dsell wanted more from me, but I don't have much to say.

I made a wording error, and Eevee jumped on it. Still stand by my vote.

I should also explain what I meant by 'heating up': I didn't mean a bandwagon heating up, but conversation heating up. Some life has been brought back into this thread so I've changed my vote to Eevee. It's starting to be less OMGUS and more scum read now though.

[Archetype]

It's starting to be less OMGUS and more scum read now though.

Forgot to say why: because of Dsell's essay above me