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[EFHW]

A roleblocker would perfectly explain why Archetype wasn't killed. Remember when the Janitor didn't use his Janitor ability? I think that's pretty clear proof of a roleblocker existing.

Restating this in bold so people don't miss it.

This doesn't really make sense. Yuma was contaminated and thrown through a door. If the Janitor power was blocked so would the kill.

Not if WW did the kill.

I'm really surprised to see Archetype make this argument.  We have no reason to believe Teproc did the kill N1.

[EFHW]

Dude, this is just wrong. You're OMGUS attitude also makes me Vote: Faust. You are 100% scum.

By the way. That's L-1. Go ahead scum... Hammer.

[EFHW]

Those quotes are in response to this.   You happily put faust to L-1 earlier

But my primary goal is to get Faust lynched.

I will do this ONLY if EFHW and Arch agree. Then I'll be on the wagon with them or not

I mean yeah, they'd have to agree of course. How would this plan work otherwise?

I only said that to show I'm vehemently against it, but will get on the wagon if they need me to to investigate me

[Delirious Deleuze]

Those quotes are in response to this.   You happily put faust to L-1 earlier

But my primary goal is to get Faust lynched.

I will do this ONLY if EFHW and Arch agree. Then I'll be on the wagon with them or not

I mean yeah, they'd have to agree of course. How would this plan work otherwise?

I only said that to show I'm vehemently against it, but will get on the wagon if they need me to to investigate me

Yeah... because you know... I rethought things in face of Faust's and Arch's reply. Sorry?

[EFHW]

Those quotes are in response to this.   You happily put faust to L-1 earlier

But my primary goal is to get Faust lynched.

I will do this ONLY if EFHW and Arch agree. Then I'll be on the wagon with them or not

I mean yeah, they'd have to agree of course. How would this plan work otherwise?

I only said that to show I'm vehemently against it, but will get on the wagon if they need me to to investigate me

Yeah... because you know... I rethought things in face of Faust's and Arch's reply. Sorry?

you said you only switched b/c I said to.

[Delirious Deleuze]

After thinking a while, I'm fairly convinced of Axxel being scum.

His main argument is that the kills don't line up with him, but I think we're all fairly certain he has to be a SK. Why would a two person scum team shoot Andrew? They're not scum hunting? That doesn't make sense.

It does make sense, though, if scum!faust targeted Arch. and sk!axxel targeted andrew. Axxel would want more people dead b/c he's the SK and he'd be hoping to not shoot the same person mafia shoots (arch or the IC.) It makes fair enough sense that he'd pick Andrew just because he'd assume mafia wouldn't target him and then there'd be too dead?

That's the only way I could think to explain it.

Scum!faust then would only have to pull a lynch over on me, pretty easy as seen in other games, and then he'd win.

That being said, Arch can confirm this tonight pretty easily. Axxel's flip is sure to be some form of scum.

responding as I go through - there are so many problems with this post. 

1.  The nk argument has been SO done already, and DD doesn't really make a relevant point there.

Except, you know, rule out the idea of a two person mafia team, which isn't something that's been restated. At all. It was only mentioned once before. This means we're looking for a SK vs. mafia.

Under Faust's investigation, Axxel would have to be a SK. That leaves one person to be the mafia.

2. DD is SURE Axxle is scum, but his explanation of the Andrew nk ends with "the only way I could think to explain it".  You can't use it for a rationale for a scum read if you have trouble coming up with a narrative that fits! 

My narrative exist and fits. Plus narratives are stupid. We're all people and people make mistakes. The fact that Andrew died proves this. My narrative, although, at least gives some rational. The fact it isn't perfect doesn't matter, because sk!axxel might not have thought of it right either.

3.  Arch will most likely die tonight and we will never learn the results of his investigation.  Saying we can rely on him confirming something sounds like scum trying to mislead town.

If you've actually read anything going on, you'd understand none of us think that our plan is full-proof, because arch will probably die. Then Faust would just have to convince you that I'm scum, and he wins.

 4. Ending with "Axxle's flip sure to be some form of scum", but there hasn't actually been any argument in favor of that conclusion.

I'm pretty sure the fact that Faust would lose if he was lying is kind of a big argument....

We have not been considering DD enough.

Those quotes are in response to this.   You happily put faust to L-1 earlier

But my primary goal is to get Faust lynched.

I will do this ONLY if EFHW and Arch agree. Then I'll be on the wagon with them or not

I mean yeah, they'd have to agree of course. How would this plan work otherwise?

I only said that to show I'm vehemently against it, but will get on the wagon if they need me to to investigate me

Yeah... because you know... I rethought things in face of Faust's and Arch's reply. Sorry?

you said you only switched b/c I said to.

And if you go back and actually reread and not pick singular sentences, you'll see my stance on faust is he's scum, but that I think it's better to lynch Axxel first.

[Axxle]

My name is Axxle.

[Archetype]

A roleblocker would perfectly explain why Archetype wasn't killed. Remember when the Janitor didn't use his Janitor ability? I think that's pretty clear proof of a roleblocker existing.

Restating this in bold so people don't miss it.

This doesn't really make sense. Yuma was contaminated and thrown through a door. If the Janitor power was blocked so would the kill.

Not if WW did the kill.

I'm really surprised to see Archetype make this argument.  We have no reason to believe Teproc did the kill N1.

What? I only said what I said because of the argument Axxle was making, not me. Not once did I say that I believed Teproc to complete the N1 kill.

[Axxle]

A roleblocker would perfectly explain why Archetype wasn't killed. Remember when the Janitor didn't use his Janitor ability? I think that's pretty clear proof of a roleblocker existing.

Restating this in bold so people don't miss it.

This doesn't really make sense. Yuma was contaminated and thrown through a door. If the Janitor power was blocked so would the kill.

Not if WW did the kill.

I'm really surprised to see Archetype make this argument.  We have no reason to believe Teproc did the kill N1.

What? I only said what I said because of the argument Axxle was making, not me. Not once did I say that I believed Teproc to complete the N1 kill.

To add to it, the classic Janitor only hides his the victim if he's the one who performs the kill: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Janitor
(I mean we *could* have a variant, but it's probably best to assume not?)

[Archetype]

By the way, I want to lynch faust first. Here's why:

For faust, there's 4 scenarios:
Human Child
SK
2nd scumteam
Town

For Axxle, 3 scenarios:
Human Child
2nd scumteam
Town

Lynching faust will show what Axxle is more than lynching Axxle will show what faust is. I go back to this:

Man, ok.

I think both Axxke and Faust are scum. I don't really who is what or whatever because I know I'm Town, DD is town, and EFHW is town. That means Faust and Axxle have to be scum.

I don't really care what order, but I think lynching Faust first will solidify whether or not DD really is Town.

Ranked from most likely to least likely...
If Faust is a Human Child, Axxle has to be SK.
If Faust is a second scum team, I'll need to rethink DD
If faust is SK, DD is scum 
If Faust is Town, well, I have no idea

So, let's lynch faust. DD/EFHW/Me in that order on his wagon.

[Axxle]

unvote

[Delirious Deleuze]

By the way, I want to lynch faust first. Here's why:

For faust, there's 4 scenarios:
Human Child
SK
2nd scumteam
Town

For Axxle, 3 scenarios:
Human Child
2nd scumteam
Town

Lynching faust will show what Axxle is more than lynching Axxle will show what faust is. I go back to this:

Man, ok.

I think both Axxke and Faust are scum. I don't really who is what or whatever because I know I'm Town, DD is town, and EFHW is town. That means Faust and Axxle have to be scum.

I don't really care what order, but I think lynching Faust first will solidify whether or not DD really is Town.

Ranked from most likely to least likely...
If Faust is a Human Child, Axxle has to be SK.
If Faust is a second scum team, I'll need to rethink DD
If faust is SK, DD is scum 
If Faust is Town, well, I have no idea

So, let's lynch faust. DD/EFHW/Me in that order on his wagon.

What? This makes no sense. Faust has 0 reason to be lying. Like 0.


Also why don't you have SK!axxel on that list of options? He can't be mafia.

[Delirious Deleuze]

On phone, but I just want to say, I only support an Axxel lynch. I'll be the hammar, but if much rather see an Axxel lynch.

I guess my biggest qualm is that if Faust turns up mafia, you die, then why is Axxel the SK? We'd be in the same spot as now

[Archetype]

Sorry - Human Child should be SK.

Faust could totally be lying. If Axxle is Town and you're his partner, a mislynch on Axxle guarantees your victory. And if he isn't, he could still be looking for other scum as scum.

[Archetype]

On phone, but I just want to say, I only support an Axxel lynch. I'll be the hammar, but if much rather see an Axxel lynch.

I guess my biggest qualm is that if Faust turns up mafia, you die, then why is Axxel the SK? We'd be in the same spot as now

Axxle is the SK because HC!Faust has no reason to lie. He still wants to find the SK, because if he lies about a Townie, the SK knows that he's scum and will shoot him that night.

[Delirious Deleuze]

On phone, but I just want to say, I only support an Axxel lynch. I'll be the hammar, but if much rather see an Axxel lynch.

I guess my biggest qualm is that if Faust turns up mafia, you die, then why is Axxel the SK? We'd be in the same spot as now

Axxle is the SK because HC!Faust has no reason to lie. He still wants to find the SK, because if he lies about a Townie, the SK knows that he's scum and will shoot him that night.

Oh I got you. Yeah this is pretty full proof

vote: faust

[EFHW]

And if you go back and actually reread and not pick singular sentences, you'll see my stance on faust is he's scum, but that I think it's better to lynch Axxel first.

You put faust to L-1, dared scum to hammer, and now say you are vehemently against a faust lynch.  And there have been no compelling arguments to inspire such a turnaround.

[EFHW]

On phone, but I just want to say, I only support an Axxel lynch. I'll be the hammar, but if much rather see an Axxel lynch.

I guess my biggest qualm is that if Faust turns up mafia, you die, then why is Axxel the SK? We'd be in the same spot as now

Axxle is the SK because HC!Faust has no reason to lie. He still wants to find the SK, because if he lies about a Townie, the SK knows that he's scum and will shoot him that night.

The two of you (Arch and DD) seem to be operating with a "it must be faust and Axxle" assumption, and I just don't see how you can get there logically.  Am I missing something?  I know you aren't both scum, but one of you could be scum while the other one is getting pulled in.

I feel like most of the arguments made in the past few days have been incomplete and confusing, and at least some of them must be intended to mislead. 

[EFHW]

On phone, but I just want to say, I only support an Axxel lynch. I'll be the hammar, but if much rather see an Axxel lynch.

I guess my biggest qualm is that if Faust turns up mafia, you die, then why is Axxel the SK? We'd be in the same spot as now

Axxle is the SK because HC!Faust has no reason to lie. He still wants to find the SK, because if he lies about a Townie, the SK knows that he's scum and will shoot him that night.

Oh I got you. Yeah this is pretty full proof

vote: faust

For example, this.  Yes, if faust flips HC then Axxle is probably the SK.  But how does that prove that faust is scum? 

I agree that one of faust and Axxle is definitely scum, because if Arch and DD were both scum, faust wouldn't claim this result on Axxle.  That rules out Arch/DD as the 2 scum.

We have ruled out Axxle/Arch partners b/c Arch didn't hammer faust. 

But how have you ruled out faust/Arch, faust/DD, Axxle/DD and Axxle!Sk/ArchHC?  Let's get systematic about this.

[EFHW]

Check this out.  I'm not sure what to make of it, but here are Archetype, faust, and DD putting Axxle at L-1.  They all stayed there for 2 rl days.  At the end, DD switched to mail-mi, then Andrew, then mail-mi again.  The fact that no one hammered suggests to me that both scum were on this wagon.  It is also possible scum was very cautious and two of you had very good instincts.  But perhaps this can rule out Axxle having a partner?

Vote Count 4.6:

Andrew (2):  mail-mi, EFHW
DD (1): Andrew
Axxle (3):  archetype, faust, DD
mail-mi (1):  Axxle

Not Voting (0):

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on June 6 at 7:00 p.m.

Oh, and finally a motive for killing Andrew!  He had a very strong scumread on DD.

[EFHW]

Sorry, I misspoke.  I should say it is possible Axxle is scum and two of you have very good instincts.

[Axxle]

On phone, but I just want to say, I only support an Axxel lynch. I'll be the hammar, but if much rather see an Axxel lynch.

I guess my biggest qualm is that if Faust turns up mafia, you die, then why is Axxel the SK? We'd be in the same spot as now

Axxle is the SK because HC!Faust has no reason to lie. He still wants to find the SK, because if he lies about a Townie, the SK knows that he's scum and will shoot him that night.

Oh I got you. Yeah this is pretty full proof

vote: faust

For example, this.  Yes, if faust flips HC then Axxle is probably the SK.  But how does that prove that faust is scum? 

I agree that one of faust and Axxle is definitely scum, because if Arch and DD were both scum, faust wouldn't claim this result on Axxle.  That rules out Arch/DD as the 2 scum.

We have ruled out Axxle/Arch partners b/c Arch didn't hammer faust. 

But how have you ruled out faust/Arch, faust/DD, Axxle/DD and Axxle!Sk/ArchHC?  Let's get systematic about this.

I'm almost certain Arch could have hammered me at some point. So it's not faust/Arch.

faust/DD is my most likely bet.

Axxle/DD. Can't think of anything at the moment. (PPE I think you cleared this one though)

Axxle!Sk/ArchHC, I would have had to trust that the last HC shot Arch, otherwise I'd probably be in a pretty bad spot tomorrow. This also means that Arch would have probably shot me last night (me being bulletproof) so would know I'm an SK. I don't think he'd entertain the faust kill as much. (There's also Axxle!Sk/DDHC, right? Or am I missing something?) PPE: And I guess DD had the most motive to kill Andrew, not me.

[EFHW]

I'm almost certain Arch could have hammered me at some point. So it's not faust/Arch.

I thought so too, but haven't found it yet.

faust/DD is my most likely bet.

Axxle/DD. Can't think of anything at the moment. (PPE I think you cleared this one though)

I cleared you as partners.  Not as independently operating scum (Axxle!Sk/DDHC, DD SK/Axxle HC).  As you can no doubt gather by now, I am increasingly feeling that DD is SK.

Why not DD SK/Axxle HC or Arch SK/Axxle HC?  I may have lost track of that argument, since everyone seems to be assuming it.

Axxle!Sk/ArchHC, I would have had to trust that the last HC shot Arch, otherwise I'd probably be in a pretty bad spot tomorrow. This also means that Arch would have probably shot me last night (me being bulletproof) so would know I'm an SK. I don't think he'd entertain the faust kill as much. (There's also Axxle!Sk/DDHC, right? Or am I missing something?) PPE: And I guess DD had the most motive to kill Andrew, not me.

Yes, killing Andrew over Archetype is a questionable choice.  When I thought no one had reason to, that wasn't very compelling.  DD could have been tempted to do so, though. 

Why do you think HC!Archetype would have shot you last night, though?  I don't think that argument can clear the Axxle SK/Arch HC scenario.

[Delirious Deleuze]

On phone, but I just want to say, I only support an Axxel lynch. I'll be the hammar, but if much rather see an Axxel lynch.

I guess my biggest qualm is that if Faust turns up mafia, you die, then why is Axxel the SK? We'd be in the same spot as now

Axxle is the SK because HC!Faust has no reason to lie. He still wants to find the SK, because if he lies about a Townie, the SK knows that he's scum and will shoot him that night.

Oh I got you. Yeah this is pretty full proof

vote: faust

For example, this.  Yes, if faust flips HC then Axxle is probably the SK.  But how does that prove that faust is scum? 

I agree that one of faust and Axxle is definitely scum, because if Arch and DD were both scum, faust wouldn't claim this result on Axxle.  That rules out Arch/DD as the 2 scum.

We have ruled out Axxle/Arch partners b/c Arch didn't hammer faust. 

But how have you ruled out faust/Arch, faust/DD, Axxle/DD and Axxle!Sk/ArchHC?  Let's get systematic about this.

My results and votes lately are shaky, I'm sorry. This is confusing me and I'm just going with what makes sense at the time.

I'm pretty sure we know for sure Axxel has to be scum, because mafia!faust has 0 incentive to lie unless he's on a team. I don't think there's a possibility for a faust/x team.

So faust/Arch, faust/DD, Axxle/DD and Axxle!Sk/ArchHC.

Faust/Arch: They would have to be a team, otherwise Faust wouldn't lie. I just don't see why Arch would do the huge gambit with claiming faust is scum, then saying he lied. Why wouldn't he just go with the wagon and win? Plus why would they kill Andrew and not you? If they killed you, then it'd be me, axxel, andrew, faust, arch. They could easily ride the axxel train, especially since I was pretty against axxel. Or they could just say andrew, and then lynch him like we were all going to do. This approach seems backwards. God, even arch could have used timid sensor on faust, confirmed him town, they lynch someone else, and they still win. This seems like too much of a wrap around. Sure the andrew kill is stupid in any scenario, but it seems especially stupid if there's only one scum faction left.

Faust/me: We'd also have to be a team. We'd have to kill arch. because he had timid sensor. Also, I am willing to lynch faust now. I've thought, thought so more, changed my mind at least 8 times, and will continue to do so, but right now, I'm down to lynch faust. I'm pretty sure I will stay there, but I want to keep looking over the possibilities.

Axxel/DD: Two possibilities here:

1. We're a team, but then the andrew kill makes no sense, still, as above. I know you don't like this as an argument, but I think the only logical explanation for an Andrew kill was SK trying to hit mafia, or shoot someone mafia wouldn't shoot. Also, why wouldn't we shoot Arch. who could have confirmed faust as town?

2. He's a SK and I'm mafia: The only thing is scum!me wouldn't shoot arch. I'd have a lot more incentive just to shoot you or faust. There wasn't a mafia kill, so it probably was a shot vs. arch. This is definitely a possibility. I can't really figure out any more reasons this isn't a possibility.

Axxle!Sk/ArchHC:

This is only an option if mafia!Arch shot at Axxel and axxel had bulletproof, which is pretty likely. I don't know why Arch would be okay with a faust lynch though over a axxel lynch. There would be a shoot out tonight and they'd die.



I don't think faust/me or faust/arch are logical, and since those are the teams with faust, faust is either town or mafia.

This leaves me with two logical scenarios:

1. mafia!me, sk!axxel
2. mafia!faust, sk!axxel.

Now I'm fine with lynching faust or axxel, after thinking this through. I know scenario one isn't true, so that leaves me with scenario 2. Now, you guys can't trust me on that. So we should lynch axxel with faust on the wagon, since I think he's scum and I think arch thinks he's scum. It's pretty irrelevant, but faust's vote is there anyway. Since axxel is scum, then mafia is the only one left. At night, arch just will be killed. Mafia cannot have him stay alive and be able to investigate faust or me. That leaves it me, faust, EFHW. It will be down to you then EFHW. This is the best scenario I see right now.

PPE:2

[Axxle]

Vote Count 5.4:

faust (2):  Axxle, DD (L-1)
Axxle (1):  faust

Not Voting (2):  EFHW, Arch

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 5 ends on June 16 at 7:00 p.m.

But Faust, you did try and kill me. But I commuted.