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[Archetype]

Why would me being alive incriminate ash?

Well ash would want to leave you alive so that he seems more right about you being scum. If he were to kill you and you flip Town, it would point to him pushing hardcore on you.

In my head that sounded so much more convincing. I'll leave my vote though.

What? This is so strange.

You are simultaneously assuming Andrew is 100% town, but then voting Ash because he wants to maintain the possibility of Andrew being scum? I don't get how you can do both of those things.

s to
From scum!ash's position, he knows Andrew is Town. He tries to push that mislynch, but fails. Nking him will prove that ash was scum trying to push the mislynch. So he leaves him alive hoping to get him lynched today thinking "not everyone thought he was Town". Obviously he hasn't yet, but I will point everyone to this argument if he does.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted?  Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?

Okay I'm an idiot.  I thought when you said "wasn't even targeted" you meant wasn't targeted in any way, not even by the doctor.  Then I was confused because you had doctor.  But I think you just meant wasn't targeted for a night kill.

Yeah, but my post was still pointless.

I've been on the road for a few days playing physically exhausting music with very little sleep, so I apologize if I don't make sense sometimes. I think I was saying I was surprised yuma wasn't targeted for a NK and that since there were two NKs, I guess that means there's a third party. So yeah, nothing of importance and I suck. End.

[xeiron]

Don't know the reason for killing faust as he was pretty set on lynching me. Could killing shraeye have something to do with ash?

These two posts from Jimm set off some red flags for me:

Yeah that seems like a fairly believeable claim.

Have you thought about which option you're going to choose Tonight Andrew?

I'm assuming Andrew is smart enough not to give anything away that he shouldn't, but I'd like to see evidence that he's actually thought about this role and it's not just something that was given him as a fakeclaim.

It seems like he's asking me to do something that I can't do, maybe so he can point to this later and say I was unwilling to cooperate or that my claim is a fakeclaim, otherwise I would've shown that I've thought about it beforehand and could somehow answer his question appropriately.

I did also notice those two posts.
vote: jimmmmm

[ashersky]

I'll be catching up over the next few hours.  Have skimmed, thought the same as many of you on Andrew's post on Yuma.

He either was surprised Yuma didn't die, which would mean he didn't protect him even though he just said he expected Yuma to be the NK, or he assumed two other deaths meant his protection was wasted.

[ashersky]

Okay, I'm a mailman. I sent a message to shraeye last night. I think my role is pretty much exactly average and so doesn't help scum much in deciding who to kill, but does narrow down who the SK could be for them, which is good for us.

So you early claim a "useless" role and say you targeted a dead guy who can't confirm it?

Sounds like trying to get around and ahead of any trackers/watchers, etc. to me.

vote: xerxespraelor

[Archetype]

I reread the last few pages leading up to sudgy's lynch.

Two things I noticed:
TA being flip-floppity during the lynch. He REALLY wants to see someone lynched...but doesn't mind a no lynch. At first blush, this seemed pretty scummy. But as I continued reading, I became more convinced that it wasn't. His top 2 scumreads were up for a lynch, and didn't mind either one dying, which I can understand. He mentions that a no lynch wouldn't be bad, but explains that a no lynch for a RMM game isn't too bad. It's easy for scum to make that argument, but the honesty reminds me of Teproc in the first Battle School Blitz. So, light townread from that.

I guess it's time for me to claim? I'm a split jailkeeper.

A what?

Yeah what's a split jailkeeper?

Why does it matter?

This is my reaction as well. Why would it matter what the role does? ash claims its for credibility, but if people are going to disbelieve his claim, then why does he need to claim it in the first place? Scum wants to know what the power is to determine if it is a threat or not.

So this gives me a scumread on ashersky and Jimmmmm. Moreso on ashersky for asking in the first place and the semi-innocent way he asked it. Combined with Andrew being alive, gives me a pretty strong scumread on ash and makes me comfortable with my vote.

[ashersky]

I'm still confused why Andrew living has any bearing on my alignment.

I'm pretty sure one of the strongest ever claimed town PRs in the history of f.ds surviving when presumably he can't self doctor AND two other people died is a strong argument that ANDREW is scum, and that my original read was right.

His doc/block claim could just as easily be a scum Roleblocker cover.

[Twistedarcher]

Arch, I definitely wanted a lynch over a no lynch.

[Archetype]

I mean as people have said a no-lynch in RMM isn't the worst, but I would much prefer to get one through. Or else we just turn this whole D1 into a chase of moving from place to place to place without learning anything. If we don't get a lynch this D1 becomes much less useful. Lynches make scum make choices, lots of wagons sitting at 2-3 votes means that scum have no risk and no inertia to move votes anywhere.

It's not the end of the world but I would highly prefer actually lynching someone today

This is the quote I was referencing. I could've sworn there was another one though.

[Archetype]

Er, wait. That was Yuma.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.FINAL:

sudgy (7): Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW, yuma, ashersky, Jimmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (6): XerxesPraelor, sudgy, Witherweaver, xeiron
ashersky (1): shraeye
Twistedarcher (1): faust

Quick wagon check:

On-wagon: Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW, yuma, ashersky, Jimmmmm
Off-wagon: XerxesPraelor, sudgy, Witherweaver, xeiron, shraeye, faust

Leaves Xerxes, WW, and xeiron off wagon, everyone else alive on.

ADK was the first to suggest lynching on wagon today.  I don't think it's right to give off-wagon a pass.

[ashersky]

Wait, two deaths at night?  That confirms a third party, right?

Not necessarily... vigs (although I doubt it with my role) or other roles can have an impact regarding NKs, but I wouldn't be surprised at all about a SK... I wonder what faust's role/flavor had to do with that bad guy he mentioned at the beginning of day1

Vig, PGO, SK, made up role that kills people, all sorts of things can happen in RMM.  I agree that if yuma is telling the truth, a normal vig in addition to a day vig would be overkill.

[ashersky]

I asked if an ash lynch was viable yesterday and got no reply. I expected Andrew to die, so him being alive incriminates ash. I haven't reread the stuff leading up to sudgy's lynch, but voting for ashersky doesn't seem like too bad of a place to start.

Ash: do you still think Andrew is scum?

I still haven't gotten a response as to why Andrew being alive has anything to do with me.  He was my top scum read, then he claimed a strong town role, then he survived with one of the strongest town roles I can think of.  None of which means I'm scum.

I'm still catching up.  Andrew's posts on D2 sound towny, and his "yuma wasn't an NK target?" slip makes him either conf!town or his second scumslip of the game.  Again, I will put it out there that it is just ridonkulous that scum goes "hey, we know for sure that guy is a doctor AND a roleblocker, so let's leave him alive, especially since at the end of D1 it didn't look like anyone wanted to lynch him."  Would you leave such as strong PR who is basically believed by everyone alive as scum?

So I think it's still very possible that Andrew is scum who had a great fakeclaim.

[ashersky]

Sorry I couldn't be around for deadline - I had a tennis match.

I think I'm going to vote:ashersky. I asked if an ash lynch was viable yesterday and got no reply. I expected Andrew to die, so him being alive incriminates ash. I haven't reread the stuff leading up to sudgy's lynch, but voting for ashersky doesn't seem like too bad of a place to start.

Ash: do you still think Andrew is scum?

You expected Andrew to die yesterday instead of Sudgy?  Or last night?

Yeah, why would Andrew be NKed when a good percentage of players have shown they're willing to lynch him?

I disagree here -- I think if Andrew is telling the truth about his role, he's absolutely a good NK for scum, probably the best.  (as an aside to the mods: definitely a cool role!).  I have to assume the mods realized the strength of that and gave scum a way to battle it.

[ashersky]

Okay, I'm a mailman. I sent a message to shraeye last night. I think my role is pretty much exactly average and so doesn't help scum much in deciding who to kill, but does narrow down who the SK could be for them, which is good for us.

My reasons for lynching ash are the same as before, except plus the fact that he lynched sudgy instead of Andrew.

This is such an awesome explanation for voting for me, by the way.  Your night action claim has nothing to do with me.

Also, "except plus" is confusing to me, is lyching sudgy in my favor or against me?  Were you around at deadline to help us decide what to do?  Nope.  Andrew claimed, sudgy was the only other viable lynch.


I will mention again the incredible convenience of your claim.  You say you targeted a player last night who was killed last night.  You know who for sure targeted shraeye?  The person who killed him.  Now we have a mailman claim from you with no way to confirm it, an early admittance that you targeted a player who died and a convenient excuse for it.

What's hilarious to me is, look at Faust's flip again man.  Unless there are multiple roles like that, you were probably in the clear without this.  My guess is you had pre-planned it last night and didn't want to deviate.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I think claiming was/is a mistake because everyone is just going say "it could be a fakeclaim!" and we get nowhere. So with that in mind, I agree with Arch's assessment and will

vote: ashersky

[ashersky]

I am also getting increasingly uneasy about yuma. I do not like the effort he put in last day to stop a lynch.

Any theories as to why scum yuma would claim Dayvig?

I think the only way not-town-yuma claims Dayvig is if he rolled SK.  He's pretty public about hating that role, and he's pretty public about not taking RMM that seriously, so combining the two, I could see him going "hey, I wonder how long I can ride a dayvig claim" and giving it a shot.  SKs often need buffs, so maybe he has a dayvig in addition to his normal role.

That's pretty far-fetched, though.  Most likely he's just what he says he is, and it's basically confirmable (well, the dayvig part).

[ashersky]

I think claiming was/is a mistake because everyone is just going say "it could be a fakeclaim!" and we get nowhere. So with that in mind, I agree with Arch's assessment and will

vote: ashersky

Who's claiming was a mistake?  Xerxes?  Or you?

It's pretty hilarious of you to vote me right after I point out the incredulity of you surviving the night as one of the strongest town roles around.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I know I'm town so I don't see why it's hilarious.

[ashersky]

I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted?  Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?

Here's the post everyone and their mother picked up on.  As I've mentioned, I see two narratives where this makes sense:

1)  Andrew is not lying about his role.  That means he most likely doctored yuma, and then was surprised that anyone, let alone two players, died.  This would be consistent with a newbie player who's also never played RMM, since anyone who has would know that there are many ways for players to die, get around doctoring, etc.

2)  Andrew is lying about his role.  That means he's most likely scum, and he was trying to make a statement that would be consistent with his fakeclaim while showing town!concern.  This would be consistent with a newbie player who's never played scum before or RMM before, since this is a bit of a fumble.  We've seen it happen to newbie scum before.

Both of these narratives are possible, and in a vacuum I'd say the town narrative is more likely.  We don't play these games in a vacuum, though.  Taking into account his super scummy D1, his survival after his claim, and his current defensiveness, I am leaning scum again on Andrew, and am kicking myself for falling for his crap near the end of D1 that forced us into the sudgy mislynch.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I think all claiming in this game is a mistake. Since you know so much about roles and fakeclaims and such, you know there's no reason to inquire any further about a claim especially if you're just going to turn around and say it's probably a fakeclaim.  I'm alive because scum thinks I could be mislynch today.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Oh here we go again with the "defensiveness". Hear ye, hear ye! Let it be known, defending yourself is scummy.

[ashersky]

I know I'm town so I don't see why it's hilarious.

You need to get over this line of thinking if you are going to be useful as town.  In any game that you are town, ONLY you know that (edgecases like IC excepted), so continually declaring this does no good whatsoever.

[ashersky]

Oh here we go again with the "defensiveness". Hear ye, hear ye! Let it be known, defending yourself is scummy.

Defending yourself when you aren't being attacked is scummy.  It's what scum does, because scum is self-conscious, and always overreacts to pressure.  Scum sees any discussion of them, their actions, their posts, and immediately goes on the defensive.  That's a scumtell, tried and true.

You see me discussing the possibility that your claim was fake.  You immediately go on the defensive, vote for me, etc.  That's what is scummy, not the act of defending yourself.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Actually that's going on the offensive.