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[A Drowned Kernel]

I still find Andrewis to be the most guilty acting.. it just feels like he's hiding something.  I don't really have any reason to think differently about him, so I'll leave my vote where it is for now. 

I'd like more elaboration on the "it feels like he's hiding something" thing, that feels incredibly vague.

I'm having a hard time with this game, especially since the whole RMM thing might give people any number of motivations for doing or saying odd things based on their roles. But as I pointed out way back when, when the thing with Andrew and me happened, Sudgy originally was voting for me, then switched to Andrew when Andrew started getting more heat. His justifications for voting for Andrew were, as has been pointed out, flimsily based on a misinterpretation of a previous game. To me it looks like he was eager for a mislynch. For me it's all enough to

Vote: Sudgy

That is L-1.

[Witherweaver]

I still find Andrewis to be the most guilty acting.. it just feels like he's hiding something.  I don't really have any reason to think differently about him, so I'll leave my vote where it is for now. 

I'd like more elaboration on the "it feels like he's hiding something" thing, that feels incredibly vague.

I'm having a hard time with this game, especially since the whole RMM thing might give people any number of motivations for doing or saying odd things based on their roles. But as I pointed out way back when, when the thing with Andrew and me happened, Sudgy originally was voting for me, then switched to Andrew when Andrew started getting more heat. His justifications for voting for Andrew were, as has been pointed out, flimsily based on a misinterpretation of a previous game. To me it looks like he was eager for a mislynch. For me it's all enough to

Vote: Sudgy

That is L-1.

It's no more than I've said before back when we were having the big back-and-forths with Andrewis. I was being short there because I feel that I've said it before. I felt then (and I haven't since changed my mind) that he overracted to accusations that, if he were innocent, wouldn't be that big of a deal.  The same accusation was made against you, and your reaction was much more straightforward, kind of "I just made an assumption."  His reaction was more "What?  Are you serious?", or at least that's how the tone read to me.  Yuma makes a good argument for him just being frustrated because things were getting out of hand, but it seems like the frustration started before the getting out of hand part. Plus, if he did get lynched and turned out to be town, then looking back and knowing that would be helpful for figuring out who is scum.

I agree that Sudgy looks like he just jumped on the wagon, but why would he point out his own mistake? No one brought up that Sudgy  was under the impression that he though Andrewis got lynched in the other game, and he didn't bring it up until he did so in the context of him misreading.  So why bring it up?  If he wanted to get on the wagon under a veil, it would have been a lot more effective for him to continue with his original reasoning, I think.

Okay so that last paragraph was from my memory of what happened, I haven't gone back and done the reread yet.  I didn't recall Sudgy voting for you and switching to Andrewis.

[yuma]

Andrew did bring up the mistake... or at least he pointed out that sudgy coming to the conclusion that he did was weird...

[sudgy]

Alright, anything directed to me from this post of yuma's I am answering:

vote: sudgy

I don't like his reasons for voting at all. But more importantly I think they are a cover for voting.

I can just remember from memory people using this case on me multiple times (as town).

His first reason was built off a faulty premise (which he has acknowledged, but hasn't moved his vote from) the second is a premise based off a meta from another player and another game. 

I originally voted him not for the faulty premise.  I started looking at other things to see if they complimented the vote or not (to see if I should still have the vote).  I mentioned the thing about Adventure Time (but it's moot), MXXXII, and him being frustrated in a scummy way.  I still stand by the other two points.

And to an extent I agree with Andrew about sudgy wanting to potentially deflect his vote onto the hammerer. I agree with Jimmmm that this would require someone to hammer, but this is f.ds where our slogan is "derphammers are a fine and useful tool for town" and sudgy knows this.

I have never seen a derphammer early in a day.  If I had voted for him now to L-1, at this point I would have been fine with a hammer and wouldn't go after the hammerer any more.

Actually, the one time I saw an uncalled hammer early in a day was by the mafia.

I have a town read on ash.  I'm starting to realize his tactics (which are basically mine on overload), and all that he has done has seemed like what I would expect from town.  I've seen scum ash, and he's usually blatantly obvious about it, argues his way into the center of attention and out of being lynched, gets lynched on D3 or D4, then nobody has anything to go off of because everybody's been talking about him so they lose to his partners.  I'm not seeing that here.

This was also a scummy post from Sudgy that I found extremely faked. He also has basically no content except for outside of Andrew. Humm...

Vote: Sudgy

I guess I can't say much other than it isn't faked, and that there isn't much in this game outside of Andrew.

sudgy...could do.  What about lynching ash?

I still don't want to lynch him.

I support a sudgy lynch. I'd prefer xeiron or ADK, but it seems like a wagon is unlikely to start on them.  I don't mind an Andrew lynch, but I'd vote for sudgy over him.

Could you say why?

I still find Andrewis to be the most guilty acting.. it just feels like he's hiding something.  I don't really have any reason to think differently about him, so I'll leave my vote where it is for now. 

I'd like more elaboration on the "it feels like he's hiding something" thing, that feels incredibly vague.

I'm having a hard time with this game, especially since the whole RMM thing might give people any number of motivations for doing or saying odd things based on their roles. But as I pointed out way back when, when the thing with Andrew and me happened, Sudgy originally was voting for me, then switched to Andrew when Andrew started getting more heat. His justifications for voting for Andrew were, as has been pointed out, flimsily based on a misinterpretation of a previous game. To me it looks like he was eager for a mislynch. For me it's all enough to

Vote: Sudgy

That is L-1.

As I said earlier, my original reasons for voting him were not Adventure Time.

[sudgy]

If you are going to mislynch, I would probably be a better choice because (I'm saying this because I'm at L-1), my role isn't the greatest.  I'll full claim if someone announces intent to hammer.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here.  That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...

That was a miscount.  He has 5 votes for him.

Oh.  Vote: AndrewisFTTW.

THIS IS L-1

This is your original reason for voting me and it is most definitely for Adventure Time.

unvote for now. I'd like to continue this conversation instead of trying to get a lynch right away. We have time.

[AndrewisFTTW]

WW, "what? are you serious?" is not the same as frustration. I don't know where everyone got that I was frustrated right from the outset. Here are my first two posts after ash and shraeye voted me, for reference:

Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?

ADK is flailing.

I'd suggest yuma dayvig ADK and we lynch Andrew.  Could be town's fastest win ever.

Did I accidentally join a drunk mafia game?

If you think that's frustration, fine. But really it's joking/confusion about whether or not this is serious because I thought that would just be too ridiculous to be taken seriously.

[Twistedarcher]

Cool with Sudgy lynch, and yes you should probably claim at intent to hammer I think.

[Witherweaver]

Andrew did bring up the mistake... or at least he pointed out that sudgy coming to the conclusion that he did was weird...

Andrewis pointed out the situations weren't the same since here he was at 5 votes and there he wasn't.  Sudgy responded by saying his evaluation was through the entirety of this game, not just since he had come under 5 votes.    It seemed to have been kind of dropped from there.

Okay, going back I see it was drawn under some attention later.  Twistedarcher asked Sudgy to prove the point that Andrewis' play is different here than it was in the AdventureTime game. Then Sudgy chimes in with saying that he had originally though Andrewis was lynched, not killed during the night.  This was a few pages after Sudgy's initial vote (and subsequent unvote, which I never really understood) against Andrewis.

Okay, so to Sudgy: You say you were mistaken originally and that "That puts a wrench in things...", but you never actually change your position on Andrewis.  In fact your next reply on the issue is to say that you think it's most likely that Andrewis is scum and Ash is town because of reasons you stated before.  But you stated those reasons were misfounded.. so what's going on here?

[Witherweaver]

WW, "what? are you serious?" is not the same as frustration. I don't know where everyone got that I was frustrated right from the outset. Here are my first two posts after ash and shraeye voted me, for reference:

Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?

ADK is flailing.

I'd suggest yuma dayvig ADK and we lynch Andrew.  Could be town's fastest win ever.

Did I accidentally join a drunk mafia game?

If you think that's frustration, fine. But really it's joking/confusion about whether or not this is serious because I thought that would just be too ridiculous to be taken seriously.

That wasn't what I said. Reread my last post please. (I'm not saying that to be condescending at all; I think you just misinterpreted what I said.) 

I'm saying that I see your initial reaction as a "what? are you serious?" response, and stronger than was was merited.  You acting frustrated was what Yuma was saying about you, though I believe this was more in the context of what ensued after these, and not these initial responses.

Honestly I don't read the joke/confusion part at all. To me the part about drunk mafia sounds like a backlash.. like saying "wow Ash that conclusion is so bad you must be drunk."  You say it's a joke, but it didn't really sound like one to me.  But it's totally possible that this is just a case of me not being able to read tone correctly through written messages and all.

[sudgy]

I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here.  That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...

That was a miscount.  He has 5 votes for him.

Oh.  Vote: AndrewisFTTW.

THIS IS L-1

This is your original reason for voting me and it is most definitely for Adventure Time.

unvote for now. I'd like to continue this conversation instead of trying to get a lynch right away. We have time.

The original reason in my mind was your reaction.  Adventure Time just put a little more oomph into it.  I thought about MXXXII too afterwards.

Okay, so to Sudgy: You say you were mistaken originally and that "That puts a wrench in things...", but you never actually change your position on Andrewis.  In fact your next reply on the issue is to say that you think it's most likely that Andrewis is scum and Ash is town because of reasons you stated before.  But you stated those reasons were misfounded.. so what's going on here?

I meant more, "All previous reasons other than Adventure Time".  I still think he's scum based on other reasons.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I still find Andrewis to be the most guilty acting.. it just feels like he's hiding something.  I don't really have any reason to think differently about him, so I'll leave my vote where it is for now. 

I'd like more elaboration on the "it feels like he's hiding something" thing, that feels incredibly vague.

I'm having a hard time with this game, especially since the whole RMM thing might give people any number of motivations for doing or saying odd things based on their roles. But as I pointed out way back when, when the thing with Andrew and me happened, Sudgy originally was voting for me, then switched to Andrew when Andrew started getting more heat. His justifications for voting for Andrew were, as has been pointed out, flimsily based on a misinterpretation of a previous game. To me it looks like he was eager for a mislynch. For me it's all enough to

Vote: Sudgy

That is L-1.

It's no more than I've said before back when we were having the big back-and-forths with Andrewis. I was being short there because I feel that I've said it before. I felt then (and I haven't since changed my mind) that he overracted to accusations that, if he were innocent, wouldn't be that big of a deal.  The same accusation was made against you, and your reaction was much more straightforward, kind of "I just made an assumption."  His reaction was more "What?  Are you serious?", or at least that's how the tone read to me.  Yuma makes a good argument for him just being frustrated because things were getting out of hand, but it seems like the frustration started before the getting out of hand part. Plus, if he did get lynched and turned out to be town, then looking back and knowing that would be helpful for figuring out who is scum.

I agree that Sudgy looks like he just jumped on the wagon, but why would he point out his own mistake? No one brought up that Sudgy  was under the impression that he though Andrewis got lynched in the other game, and he didn't bring it up until he did so in the context of him misreading.  So why bring it up?  If he wanted to get on the wagon under a veil, it would have been a lot more effective for him to continue with his original reasoning, I think.

Okay so that last paragraph was from my memory of what happened, I haven't gone back and done the reread yet.  I didn't recall Sudgy voting for you and switching to Andrewis.

The bolded part is what I was responding to.

[Jorbles]

Vote Count 1.8:

sudgy (5): Jimmmmm, yuma, Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel
AndrewisFTTW (4): XerxesPraelor, faust, Witherweaver, xeiron

Not voting (4): sudgy, shraeye, ashersky, AndrewisFTTW

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time. (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles may be around and will try to get online asap if it comes right down to deadline.)

[Witherweaver]

I still find Andrewis to be the most guilty acting.. it just feels like he's hiding something.  I don't really have any reason to think differently about him, so I'll leave my vote where it is for now. 

I'd like more elaboration on the "it feels like he's hiding something" thing, that feels incredibly vague.

I'm having a hard time with this game, especially since the whole RMM thing might give people any number of motivations for doing or saying odd things based on their roles. But as I pointed out way back when, when the thing with Andrew and me happened, Sudgy originally was voting for me, then switched to Andrew when Andrew started getting more heat. His justifications for voting for Andrew were, as has been pointed out, flimsily based on a misinterpretation of a previous game. To me it looks like he was eager for a mislynch. For me it's all enough to

Vote: Sudgy

That is L-1.

It's no more than I've said before back when we were having the big back-and-forths with Andrewis. I was being short there because I feel that I've said it before. I felt then (and I haven't since changed my mind) that he overracted to accusations that, if he were innocent, wouldn't be that big of a deal.  The same accusation was made against you, and your reaction was much more straightforward, kind of "I just made an assumption."  His reaction was more "What?  Are you serious?", or at least that's how the tone read to me.  Yuma makes a good argument for him just being frustrated because things were getting out of hand, but it seems like the frustration started before the getting out of hand part. Plus, if he did get lynched and turned out to be town, then looking back and knowing that would be helpful for figuring out who is scum.

I agree that Sudgy looks like he just jumped on the wagon, but why would he point out his own mistake? No one brought up that Sudgy  was under the impression that he though Andrewis got lynched in the other game, and he didn't bring it up until he did so in the context of him misreading.  So why bring it up?  If he wanted to get on the wagon under a veil, it would have been a lot more effective for him to continue with his original reasoning, I think.

Okay so that last paragraph was from my memory of what happened, I haven't gone back and done the reread yet.  I didn't recall Sudgy voting for you and switching to Andrewis.

The bolded part is what I was responding to.

Oh, I see.  Poor writing by me. I meant there that I had some trouble buying the narrative, because if you were only acting this way because you were frustrated about everything going on, that doesn't explain it because you were acting in a defensive manner from the beginning. 

[AndrewisFTTW]

If I didn't defend myself everyone would've jumped on me just the same, if not more.

[Witherweaver]

I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here.  That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...

That was a miscount.  He has 5 votes for him.

Oh.  Vote: AndrewisFTTW.

THIS IS L-1

This is your original reason for voting me and it is most definitely for Adventure Time.

unvote for now. I'd like to continue this conversation instead of trying to get a lynch right away. We have time.

The original reason in my mind was your reaction.  Adventure Time just put a little more oomph into it.  I thought about MXXXII too afterwards.

Okay, so to Sudgy: You say you were mistaken originally and that "That puts a wrench in things...", but you never actually change your position on Andrewis.  In fact your next reply on the issue is to say that you think it's most likely that Andrewis is scum and Ash is town because of reasons you stated before.  But you stated those reasons were misfounded.. so what's going on here?

I meant more, "All previous reasons other than Adventure Time".  I still think he's scum based on other reasons.

Can you recap those reasons?

[sudgy]

If I didn't defend myself everyone would've jumped on me just the same, if not more.

I wouldn't have.  Scumslip arguments are horrible.  And it was the way you defended, not just defending.

-snip-

Can you recap those reasons?

Mainly, I think he overreacted and got too frustrated, some of his posts give me a "you caught me for the wrong reasons" vibe, and he reminds me of myself in MXXXII.

[faust]

Don't like the way this sudgy wagon suddenly started off. From zero votes to L-1 in what? 20 hours? sudgy's one of the obvious easy mislynches. I'll look to that in greater detail, but right now the sudgy wagon seems so much more likely scum-driven than the Andrew wagon.

[xeiron]

Don't like the way this sudgy wagon suddenly started off. From zero votes to L-1 in what? 20 hours? sudgy's one of the obvious easy mislynches. I'll look to that in greater detail, but right now the sudgy wagon seems so much more likely scum-driven than the Andrew wagon.

I agree that the sudgy wagon seems scum driven.

The question is then who on it is scum?

Jimm's vote is a remnant from the old days of RVS
Yuma is the main force behind the wagon, I do not feel safe about him, but neither do I see a reson to vote for him.
TwistedArcher seems towny enough.
Much has been said about AndrewisFTTW, but his place on the sudgy wagon is no alignment tell. Everyone would do that when they are the main lynch alternative.
Archetype does not seems any more scummy than usual.
A Drowned Kernel could wery well be scum. He seems eager to lynch anyone except Andrew.

I will go with vote: jimmmmm. While he is not really a force on the wagon I do not like how he stays in the background.
He comments some thing that happends. Watches the Andrews wagon from a distance softly supporting it.
It feels like he just waits for a (mis)lynch to happen without wanting to get his own hands dirty.

[yuma]

Don't like the way this sudgy wagon suddenly started off. From zero votes to L-1 in what? 20 hours? sudgy's one of the obvious easy mislynches. I'll look to that in greater detail, but right now the sudgy wagon seems so much more likely scum-driven than the Andrew wagon.

i am far more interested in determining which will result in a scum lynch... andrew i think has very little possibility, sudgy more so

getting a scummy vibe from faust off this

[Twistedarcher]

Faust, xeiron, you are not really talking about why this wagon is scummy...just that the fact that there is a wagon. Wagons happen towards the end of days. Why is this one scummy? I didn't see anything from either of you that makes me want to unvote. I'm not scared just cause its a wagon why would I be? We need wagons to make lynches.

[xeiron]

Faust, xeiron, you are not really talking about why this wagon is scummy...just that the fact that there is a wagon. Wagons happen towards the end of days. Why is this one scummy? I didn't see anything from either of you that makes me want to unvote. I'm not scared just cause its a wagon why would I be? We need wagons to make lynches.

It is scummy because it happened so fast, and because there is thin reasononing for the votes given. At least there is nothing there that convinces me that sudgy is scum.

[yuma]

Faust, xeiron, you are not really talking about why this wagon is scummy...just that the fact that there is a wagon. Wagons happen towards the end of days. Why is this one scummy? I didn't see anything from either of you that makes me want to unvote. I'm not scared just cause its a wagon why would I be? We need wagons to make lynches.

It is scummy because it happened so fast, and because there is thin reasononing for the votes given. At least there is nothing there that convinces me that sudgy is scum.

fast wagons have nothing to do with accuracy. At all!

If you disagree with the reasons then state them, but "fast" is not good enough

[Twistedarcher]

Recent blitz experiences (and I'm sure Yuma would agree here) has taught me that super fast wagons and deadline crunches are not only a great tool for reading interactions, but also they have just as high a chance of hitting scum than a wagon that forms slowly

[ashersky]

I'm back from LA in an hour or so.

I want to point out the stall-ness of the super stalled Andrew stall wagon.

Scum not bussing, maybe?  Stall wagon is scum wagon.