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[sudgy]

Can you please tell me why putting you to L-1 is scummy?  You've said that a bajillion times, I've said why I don't think it's scummy, but you (and others) have never said why it was.

I stated my theory in my last post but I guess I can repeat it. By saying you would only expect scum to hammer at that point, you effectively shifted blame for a mislynch onto whoever potentially hammers, and putting me at L-1 made it much easier for that to happen.

As Jimmmmm said, I didn't expect anyone to hammer.  My saying I would attack someone for lynching you was because of how preposterous of a situation it was.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Can you please tell me why putting you to L-1 is scummy?  You've said that a bajillion times, I've said why I don't think it's scummy, but you (and others) have never said why it was.

I stated my theory in my last post but I guess I can repeat it. By saying you would only expect scum to hammer at that point, you effectively shifted blame for a mislynch onto whoever potentially hammers, and putting me at L-1 made it much easier for that to happen.

But that only makes sense if he actually expected someone to hammer.

Maybe he thought that was likely, I sure did. If not it doesn't really make a difference anyway.

[yuma]

vote: sudgy

I don't like his reasons for voting at all. But more importantly I think they are a cover for voting.

His first reason was built off a faulty premise (which he has acknowledged, but hasn't moved his vote from) the second is a premise based off a meta from another player and another game. 

And to an extent I agree with Andrew about sudgy wanting to potentially deflect his vote onto the hammerer. I agree with Jimmmm that this would require someone to hammer, but this is f.ds where our slogan is "derphammers are a fine and useful tool for town" and sudgy knows this.

Regardless I think he is a far better lynch option than Andrew and even if he isn't the player I want to focus on... that would still probably be WW... he might be a viable alternative to Andrew.

[Twistedarcher]

I have a town read on ash.  I'm starting to realize his tactics (which are basically mine on overload), and all that he has done has seemed like what I would expect from town.  I've seen scum ash, and he's usually blatantly obvious about it, argues his way into the center of attention and out of being lynched, gets lynched on D3 or D4, then nobody has anything to go off of because everybody's been talking about him so they lose to his partners.  I'm not seeing that here.

This was also a scummy post from Sudgy that I found extremely faked. He also has basically no content except for outside of Andrew. Humm...

Vote: Sudgy

[yuma]

SUDGYWAGON!

[yuma]

And I consistently think that no-lynching is a better option in RMM games than normal games, so that might be an option but I anticipate getting a lot of negative backlash against that idea so I doubt it will go through.

From a role/setup standpoint, you are generally correct about the merits of a no-lynch in RMM.  From a gameplay/scumhunting standpoint, though, I don't think it's in our best interest.

The flip gives us a very important first data point against which we can compare everything else.  We don't have a reference for anything anyone's said yet.  That first flip gives us that.

Plus, we don't know how much power scum has at night; it could outweigh anything we think we're gaining by no lynching.

This is true. However, I would postulate that in a RMM game we would have some roles with investigative abilities that could feasibly provide data points to go off... but that is an assumption (and i won't get into that argument again). But your point about mafia outweighing us in PRs is also good.

But really I think the reason that I always want to no-lynch in RMM is that I hate the idea of having a cool role and then losing the opportunity to use it because of a lynch. The first RMM game (RMMI) solved this and I tried to solve it as well in AD Mafia. Someday we should try it... why not this game?

[sudgy]

Ugh.  Every time.

[yuma]

I'm fine with yuma not shooting today, I guess... it's better to have the Andrew wagon for analyzing than to have him shot, so he shouldn't shoot Andrew... and if he's not compulsive, well, there are benefits to scum not shooting D1. Though I think yuma needs to shoot D2 to confirm his role.

I really don't like this.

I will shoot when I feel it is best to shoot (unless I am required by mod constraints) and that my shot is more than likely to hit scum. Nothing else will make me change my mind. I will not shoot to confirm my role. If you want that then lynch me. Because from my point of view I will not take out a player that might have an extremely positive role for town just for the sake of proving my role which I see as a potentially negative utility and thus more or less null.

Basically. You and no one else gets to decide when I shoot. I will die before shooting at a time that I disagree with and I disagree with shooting just to prove my role.

(MYLO or LYLO situations might potentially change my mind about this if it is a either you shoot or you die and town is guaranteed to lose the game)

[yuma]

Andrew what are the scummiest things you've seen today that don't involve the pushing of your wagon?

I wonder why are you asking this question?

And I will add that it isn't really a fair question because everything today has been about Andrew. There isn't much else to go off and I don't know how Andrew could really be expected to answer this...

[Jimmmmm]

Can you please tell me why putting you to L-1 is scummy?  You've said that a bajillion times, I've said why I don't think it's scummy, but you (and others) have never said why it was.

I stated my theory in my last post but I guess I can repeat it. By saying you would only expect scum to hammer at that point, you effectively shifted blame for a mislynch onto whoever potentially hammers, and putting me at L-1 made it much easier for that to happen.

But that only makes sense if he actually expected someone to hammer.

Maybe he thought that was likely, I sure did. If not it doesn't really make a difference anyway.

Well derphammers aren't unheard of, but they're pretty rare, especially if someone has made a point of stating they're at L-1. Also ash was already voting for you, so a deliberate hammer that far away from deadline was unlikely.

[yuma]

I don't think you could both be scum? He wouldn't want to put a teammate at d1 l-1 so quickly it's just too risky I think...like not impossible but not likely either.

ash doesn't like to bus as scum. Maybe one of these days he'll turn that on its head and catch us all by surprise, but I'd say it's unlikely he's doing that here.

This is true, but I don't think it applies to the current situation.

Everyone knows that ash pounces on "scumslips." When I saw what Andrew had posted--and yes I noted it before anyone said anything--at work via e-mail I anticipated ash coming in and voting.

If he hadn't I would have been very suspicious of that. Because that is what I expect of ash.

Ash knows this and he knows that if there was a slip he would have to pounce on it, regardless of whether or not it was his teammate... which is why I can't deduce anything about ash's alignment from the current situation with Andrew because how ash is reacting is exactly how ash would react regardless of his alignment.

[sudgy]

I'll reply to you guys more later when my stress over something in real life has cooled down.

[AndrewisFTTW]

vote: sudgy

[shraeye]

sudgy...could do.  What about lynching ash?

[Twistedarcher]

Andrew what are the scummiest things you've seen today that don't involve the pushing of your wagon?

I wonder why are you asking this question?

Because I only know about his scum reads within the context of his wagon, not outside of it.

[shraeye]

also, it's a great question.

[Twistedarcher]

sudgy...could do.  What about lynching ash?

I wouldn't want to lynch him over Sudgy or Andrew...or at all I guess? What's scummy about him?

[shraeye]

hunch.  I haven't done my reading.  But I'm getting that itch.

[Archetype]

What do you guys think is more likely?

1) I'm scum and ash is scum
2) I'm scum and ash is town
3) I'm town and ash is scum
4) I'm town and ash is town

Show your work!

From most likely to least:

4, 2, 3, 1

[yuma]

also, it's a great question.

How would you answer it.

I can tell you my answer. I saw practically nothing of value to comment on before the Andrew discussion--although I think we were on our way to getting there--and have since been completely and totally distracted by the Andrew discussion to the extent that there is very little to get any sort of read on.

[Archetype]

I support a sudgy lynch. I'd prefer xeiron or ADK, but it seems like a wagon is unlikely to start on them.  I don't mind an Andrew lynch, but I'd vote for sudgy over him.

[yuma]

I support a sudgy lynch. I'd prefer xeiron or ADK, but it seems like a wagon is unlikely to start on them.  I don't mind an Andrew lynch, but I'd vote for sudgy over him.

Do it!

[Archetype]

I support a sudgy lynch. I'd prefer xeiron or ADK, but it seems like a wagon is unlikely to start on them.  I don't mind an Andrew lynch, but I'd vote for sudgy over him.

Do it!

When is deadline? Oh. Thursday. I thought it was later. Vote: sudgy

[Witherweaver]

Well I guess I have to go back and reread Sudgy's responses to everything.  I was never struck with a notion of scum from him, though the vote/unvote thing seemed suspicious.  And the bit about reading the other game and then misinterpreting it (as if he didn't actually read it?).  But I don't see what faking that gains him.  And if it was a scummy slip, then it means he was really eager to get on the wagon and just grasped at any reason, and then later found a problem with his reason.  But then why even bring up that his reason wasn't good in the first place?  Because he was concerned someone would find it and he wanted to get in front of that?

I found Ash's actions to be more questionable.. but maybe that's because I would have thought of going all-out and acting certain about someone else's guilt is more of a scum thing to do than a town thing.  But the general consensus seems to be that aggressive hunting is more of a town quality.  That may be true, I don't really know.

I still find Andrewis to be the most guilty acting.. it just feels like he's hiding something.  I don't really have any reason to think differently about him, so I'll leave my vote where it is for now. 

[mail-mi]

Vote Count 1.7:

sudgy (5): Jimmmmm, yuma, Twistedarcher, AndrewisFTTW, Archetype
AndrewisFTTW (4): XerxesPraelor, faust, Witherweaver, xeiron

Not voting (4): A Drowned Kernel, sudgy, shraeye, ashersky

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time That's in 2 days. (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles may be around and will try to get online asap if it comes right down to deadline.)