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[mcmcsalot]

I don't want an immediate massclaim after the second PR is outed. I want the massclaim when the third PR is about to claim. This is a substantial difference. So Voltaire, in your example, we don't massclaim right away at D2, we massclaim when the Goon Cop thinks he should claim.

What we absolutely shouldn't do is treat anyone who claims as an IC. It could always be a lucky fake claim.

I'm not sure that my plan would work great, but we have to do something to prevent mafia from getting safe fake claims.

I'm not sure how it's better than just letting PRs claim when they think they should claim, and we are as skeptical as necessary. Why force the other PRs to out themselves when one PR wants to claim? (if, say, we had a goon cop AND a tracker remaining in my example). What would we gain from the tracker getting outed? (in this mafia's odds go to 2/4 odds of getting away with it. I know many players who would play those odds).

I am just super-wary of fakeclaims.

I am as well, I don't think claiming is an amazing idea. I mean it's because I just don't think fake claiming is good as scum, I am happy to have scum fake claim and get counterclaimed. Okay sort of understanding things, if scum picked no powers, we have one more pr and once that is outed scum could claim another pr and we would have no idea it was fake, even so, if mafia flips goon it lessens the chance of pr, if the claimed pr doesn't die its less of a chance it is true, I mean i don't know I advise against town prs ever claiming unless counter claiming and I think is scum fake claims it will be outed.

[Teproc]

Massclaiming at any point seems pretty bad to me because mafia knows exactly how many PRs are in the game. So let's say mafia took 1 power, once 3 PR's have claimed, mafia is free to fakeclaim whatever the hell they want and be safe from a counterclaim. Having PRs hidden makes it very risky for mafia to fakeclaim because they don't know which PRs are actually in the game.
I'll think about this a bit more, but it's not a very relevant discussion for today anyway, is it ?

[2.71828.....]

Claiming: I don't like it.  Giving scum information that we don't need to that helps them more than it helps us.

Robz: Interesting.  I especially appreciated this:

I'm not seeing a better vote than Robz still so far. That rage!vote didn't help...I know Voltaire gets your goat Robz, but I believe that's more of a scumtell for you than town-.

It is, which is why this game will help rebalance things so that that's a null-tell again.

Claiming meta-modification.  Seems pretty bold to me.  Excited to see where this goes.  I tend to think this is more of a town move than scum, but I really like the way Robz just went all the way in there.

[2.71828.....]

I wanted to wait for Morgrim, but he will be VLA today, and discussion should move on. So here's the (almost) final list:

Voltaire - Daychat (+ X)
Walrus - JOAT
Robz - (Daychat)
Jimmmm - Role Cop (+ Recruit)
ashersky - None or Daychat, JOAT, Recruit
faust – Role Cop (+Daychat)
Jorbles - Daychat, JOAT
manda - Daychat
Teproc - Role Cop, JOAT
morgrim - ?
2.7 - Daychat, Recruit, Role Cop
mcmcsalot - (Daychat + Recruit)

[stuff]

Finally, what to make of people's power picks? Get in the head of scum for a moment. It doesn't matter much if you say the truth or not, but can you actually use this to manipulate town? Yes, you can! Make them believe there are lots of PRs out there, so that later a fakeclaim will look less suspicious. Because of that, slight FoS to all who took the 3 powers option.

People who took the 3 powers option:
2.7

I guess Ashersky said he would do all or none, so can I include him in this list?  Please?  I don't want to be all alone with that FoS pointed at me

[Voltaire]

I guess Ashersky said he would do all or none, so can I include him in this list?  Please?  I don't want to be all alone with that FoS pointed at me

More importantly, do you think faust's reasoning is correct?

[faust]

I wanted to wait for Morgrim, but he will be VLA today, and discussion should move on. So here's the (almost) final list:

Voltaire - Daychat (+ X)
Walrus - JOAT
Robz - (Daychat)
Jimmmm - Role Cop (+ Recruit)
ashersky - None or Daychat, JOAT, Recruit
faust – Role Cop (+Daychat)
Jorbles - Daychat, JOAT
manda - Daychat
Teproc - Role Cop, JOAT
morgrim - ?
2.7 - Daychat, Recruit, Role Cop
mcmcsalot - (Daychat + Recruit)

[stuff]

Finally, what to make of people's power picks? Get in the head of scum for a moment. It doesn't matter much if you say the truth or not, but can you actually use this to manipulate town? Yes, you can! Make them believe there are lots of PRs out there, so that later a fakeclaim will look less suspicious. Because of that, slight FoS to all who took the 3 powers option.

People who took the 3 powers option:
2.7

I guess Ashersky said he would do all or none, so can I include him in this list?  Please?  I don't want to be all alone with that FoS pointed at me

Yes, I would include ashersky.

[faust]

Massclaiming at any point seems pretty bad to me because mafia knows exactly how many PRs are in the game. So let's say mafia took 1 power, once 3 PR's have claimed, mafia is free to fakeclaim whatever the hell they want and be safe from a counterclaim. Having PRs hidden makes it very risky for mafia to fakeclaim because they don't know which PRs are actually in the game.
I'll think about this a bit more, but it's not a very relevant discussion for today anyway, is it ?

I do NOT favor a massclaim. I suggest you read my proposal again, carefully. I suggest that everyone claims when our likely last PR wants to claim anyway.

[Voltaire]

Massclaiming at any point seems pretty bad to me because mafia knows exactly how many PRs are in the game. So let's say mafia took 1 power, once 3 PR's have claimed, mafia is free to fakeclaim whatever the hell they want and be safe from a counterclaim. Having PRs hidden makes it very risky for mafia to fakeclaim because they don't know which PRs are actually in the game.
I'll think about this a bit more, but it's not a very relevant discussion for today anyway, is it ?

I do NOT favor a massclaim. I suggest you read my proposal again, carefully. I suggest that everyone claims when our likely last PR wants to claim anyway.

But...that's a massclaim...and we have no way of knowing when anyone is our "last" PR.

[Teproc]

I don't want an immediate massclaim after the second PR is outed. I want the massclaim when the third PR is about to claim. This is a substantial difference. So Voltaire, in your example, we don't massclaim right away at D2, we massclaim when the Goon Cop thinks he should claim.

Seems to me you do want a massclaim ? I don't see how your plan gets away the problem I pointed out, which is that, once all town PRs have claimed, mafia can fakeclaim anything. The only case where this isn't true is if mafia chose 3 powers.

[faust]

I don't want an immediate massclaim after the second PR is outed. I want the massclaim when the third PR is about to claim. This is a substantial difference. So Voltaire, in your example, we don't massclaim right away at D2, we massclaim when the Goon Cop thinks he should claim.

Seems to me you do want a massclaim ? I don't see how your plan gets away the problem I pointed out, which is that, once all town PRs have claimed, mafia can fakeclaim anything. The only case where this isn't true is if mafia chose 3 powers.

Well, mafia would need to claim generic PR, and then if we're lucky they have to claim first, so there's that. It also pressures mafia - they can't just claim whenever they want, they need to react quickly. And that's when mistakes are made.

On top of that, a simple "PRs don't claim" plan is bad as well, isn't it? Investigative roles WANT to claim once they have an incriminating result. It will be clear that a Vigilante is around as soon as we get two night kills. The Bodyguard wants other PRs to claim. Roleblockers like claims so they don't target the wrong people. I am already outed. On top of that, people die, and are automatically outed. Sooner or later, mafia WILL have the chance to fakeclaim.

[mcmcsalot]

vote: Teproc

Reread his posts, they all game me a very scummy vibe.

The way he is pushing Robz lynch is scummy to me, he seems to be going at it as scum trying to push a lynch. Rather than town looking for scum.

[2.71828.....]

before I answer if I think fausts reasoning is correct, let me make sure I understand his reasoning.  Faust, am I correct to summarize by saying:

Scum want town to think there are a lot of PRs out there in order to fakeclaim these roles to prevent themselves from being lynched at any given time.

[faust]

before I answer if I think fausts reasoning is correct, let me make sure I understand his reasoning.  Faust, am I correct to summarize by saying:

Scum want town to think there are a lot of PRs out there in order to fakeclaim these roles to prevent themselves from being lynched at any given time.

That's pretty much it. Of course fakeclaims can be used more subtly than plain "avoid to be lynched".

[Jorbles]

vote: Teproc

Reread his posts, they all game me a very scummy vibe.

The way he is pushing Robz lynch is scummy to me, he seems to be going at it as scum trying to push a lynch. Rather than town looking for scum.

I don't agree with this. From what I see he doesn't seem particularly scummy to me. Most of what he's said seems pretty rational, but maybe that's just because I found Robz scummy too. (However I do think this is the sort of post we should be moving towards. Mass claim discussions are a waste of time right now. Let's save it for a week or two from now.)

[faust]

FWIW, I didn't want to spark a massclaim discussion. I just wanted to get the thought out there because I'm likely dead tomorrow. Now go scumhunting, children!

[Voltaire]

I don't agree with this. From what I see he doesn't seem particularly scummy to me. Most of what he's said seems pretty rational, but maybe that's just because I found Robz scummy too. (However I do think this is the sort of post we should be moving towards. Mass claim discussions are a waste of time right now. Let's save it for a week or two from now.)

This, all of this - except for the Robz stuff I've mostly agreed with what Teproc has said as well. We thought alike in GoT and we were both town. (It gives me a fun chance to try out my "people sheeping me in a gut way are scum" test, which has only ever been true about chairs in HP).

[2.71828.....]

In that case, no.  I do not agree with that line of reasoning. 

I do not think fake claiming will help the mafia.  In a game where scum control the PRs (or at least how many PRs that exist) every claim should be met with a certain level of scrutiny.  Why put yourself through that?  You are setting yourself up to be lynched.  You will probably only be able to take a single town member down with you.  We have 9 town, 3 mafia.  A claim will probably end in your death and the death of a town member.  so 8 town and 2 mafia left.  Scum need a better K-D ratio than that.  They will lose at that rate.

Now, if I am way off base with that tell me.  Also, vets, what are some games that I can go to as a reference for fakeclaims that are either well executed or poorly done?

[faust]

In that case, no.  I do not agree with that line of reasoning. 

I do not think fake claiming will help the mafia.  In a game where scum control the PRs (or at least how many PRs that exist) every claim should be met with a certain level of scrutiny.  Why put yourself through that?  You are setting yourself up to be lynched.  You will probably only be able to take a single town member down with you.  We have 9 town, 3 mafia.  A claim will probably end in your death and the death of a town member.  so 8 town and 2 mafia left.  Scum need a better K-D ratio than that.  They will lose at that rate.

Now, if I am way off base with that tell me.  Also, vets, what are some games that I can go to as a reference for fakeclaims that are either well executed or poorly done?

Why are you "setting yourself up to be lynched" with a fake claim?

[Voltaire]

In that case, no.  I do not agree with that line of reasoning. 

I do not think fake claiming will help the mafia.  In a game where scum control the PRs (or at least how many PRs that exist) every claim should be met with a certain level of scrutiny.  Why put yourself through that?  You are setting yourself up to be lynched.  You will probably only be able to take a single town member down with you.  We have 9 town, 3 mafia.  A claim will probably end in your death and the death of a town member.  so 8 town and 2 mafia left.  Scum need a better K-D ratio than that.  They will lose at that rate.

Now, if I am way off base with that tell me.  Also, vets, what are some games that I can go to as a reference for fakeclaims that are either well executed or poorly done?

Well obviously scum's not going to fake claim now, that would be pretty terrible for them. But imagine we mislynch today, and scum kills tonight. Now it's 10 players on D2, 7 town and 3 scum. If mafia does a one-for-one claim/trade where the town is mislynched first, they win the game. Because the mislynch will make it 6 town, 3 scum and the nightkill wins the game, town never gets a chance to kill the confirmed scum.

And this doesn't get into the fact that a fake claim may not be caught by a counter-claim. Or that we might have a way to stop a kill, or kill mafia at night.

But the point is fake claiming could be amazing for mafia.

[2.71828.....]

In that case, no.  I do not agree with that line of reasoning. 

I do not think fake claiming will help the mafia.  In a game where scum control the PRs (or at least how many PRs that exist) every claim should be met with a certain level of scrutiny.  Why put yourself through that?  You are setting yourself up to be lynched.  You will probably only be able to take a single town member down with you.  We have 9 town, 3 mafia.  A claim will probably end in your death and the death of a town member.  so 8 town and 2 mafia left.  Scum need a better K-D ratio than that.  They will lose at that rate.

Now, if I am way off base with that tell me.  Also, vets, what are some games that I can go to as a reference for fakeclaims that are either well executed or poorly done?

Well obviously scum's not going to fake claim now, that would be pretty terrible for them. But imagine we mislynch today, and scum kills tonight. Now it's 10 players on D2, 7 town and 3 scum. If mafia does a one-for-one claim/trade where the town is mislynched first, they win the game. Because the mislynch will make it 6 town, 3 scum and the nightkill wins the game, town never gets a chance to kill the confirmed scum.

And this doesn't get into the fact that a fake claim may not be caught by a counter-claim. Or that we might have a way to stop a kill, or kill mafia at night.

But the point is fake claiming could be amazing for mafia.

I am probably missing something, but how does 5 town, 3 scum endgame town?  Town can lynch the scum, making it 5/2, lose one more at night (4/2) and keep lynching scum for a win.

[Teproc]

vote: Teproc

Reread his posts, they all game me a very scummy vibe.

The way he is pushing Robz lynch is scummy to me, he seems to be going at it as scum trying to push a lynch. Rather than town looking for scum.

I don't think I've been "pushing" for a Robz lynch really. He seemed scummy in the exchange he had with Jimmmmm, I said so and voted for him. Since then, he hasn't done anything to make me think he's town, so my vote has stayed on him. ashersky said it didn't look like something scum!Robz would do, and I said I was wary of meta defenses because that's the way mail-mi survived in GoT.

I also don't see how "pushing for a lynch" is scummy anyway. If I think someone is scum, I am definitely going to push for their lynch, why would I not ? Scum could do that as well of course, but I would expect scum to stand back and let others do the work for them so that they don't become a target after a mislynch.

[ashersky]

In that case, no.  I do not agree with that line of reasoning. 

I do not think fake claiming will help the mafia.  In a game where scum control the PRs (or at least how many PRs that exist) every claim should be met with a certain level of scrutiny.  Why put yourself through that?  You are setting yourself up to be lynched.  You will probably only be able to take a single town member down with you.  We have 9 town, 3 mafia.  A claim will probably end in your death and the death of a town member.  so 8 town and 2 mafia left.  Scum need a better K-D ratio than that.  They will lose at that rate.

Now, if I am way off base with that tell me.  Also, vets, what are some games that I can go to as a reference for fakeclaims that are either well executed or poorly done?

D2 of Mean Girls.

[Voltaire]

I am probably missing something, but how does 5 town, 3 scum endgame town?  Town can lynch the scum, making it 5/2, lose one more at night (4/2) and keep lynching scum for a win.

Dear lord apparently I need coffee or something. I was thinking 5 "town" as in "the town is comprised of all the players in the game, town and scum" and not "town, an alignment".

Carry on. 

[2.71828.....]

one more thing about fakeclaiming:
If scum want to fakeclaim, they want as few real town PRs to exist as possible, but make us think that a lot of them exist.  More actual town PRs=More chance of a real claim on top of the fake claim.  So if you are thinking that scum have an eventual fakeclaim strategy, you should bring into question those people who thought scum should not take any PRs.

[Voltaire]

one more thing about fakeclaiming:
If scum want to fakeclaim, they want as few real town PRs to exist as possible, but make us think that a lot of them exist.  More actual town PRs=More chance of a real claim on top of the fake claim.  So if you are thinking that scum have an eventual fakeclaim strategy, you should bring into question those people who thought scum should not take any PRs.

I'm trying not to make any assumptions about what scum would or would not do right now. I don't have any information to base such a guess on.